XSF Discussion - 2017-12-15

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  3. pep. Ge0rG, can you point me to a thread for PARS? (on standards?)
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  103. Ge0rG It's in the June 2016 archive I think, will look up from PC later
  104. jonasw LMSTFY
  105. jonasw pep., https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-June/031150.html https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-April/032599.html https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-May/032616.html (if you get a chance, Ge0rG, please confirm that this is the thread you meant to link)
  106. jonasw (those are three links, but it’s the same thread, mailman archive is stupid)
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  108. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks, those are exactly the right links
  109. jonasw Ge0rG, yw
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  122. marc There was some guy who proposed a protocol to access SMS via XMPP from multiple clients. What happend with this protocol/idea?
  123. Ge0rG marc: are you talking about https://jmp.chat/ or moparisthebest' self-echo component?
  124. Ge0rG https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self
  125. marc Ge0rG, probably the self-echo stuff
  126. marc GitHub not reachable... fuck ... :D
  127. Zash Allow me to point and laugh
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  137. marc Ge0rG, do we need to return the TOKEN (ad-hoc command)?
  138. marc Could be used as manual fallback but apart from that I don't know a good reason to return it
  139. Ge0rG marc: we MUST return an xmpp: URI and we MAY return a web URI
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  141. marc Ge0rG, yes, I know but this wasn't the question :P
  142. Ge0rG marc: my answer was supposed to be comprehensive, so we should not return anything beyond that
  143. Ge0rG marc: one could think about adding a description text, token validity info, onboarding information etc.; but I think a minimal protocol is beneficial
  144. marc Ge0rG, well I already have defined a token expiration field :)
  145. Ge0rG marc: I think that URI and URL are not the right names, BTW.
  146. marc Ge0rG, I'm open for suggestions :)
  147. Ge0rG marc: I'd go with `uri` for the xmpp: link, but something like `landingpage` or `web` for the https
  148. marc yeah, but it should contain 'url' I think
  149. marc something like landing_url
  150. marc maybe...
  151. jonasw please no underscores in XML
  152. Ge0rG marc: after thinking about it, it's okay to return the validity to the inviter. Their client could create an i18ned message to share, like "Hi, I would like to invite you to chat with me under <https://...>. This link will expire in 2 weeks."
  153. Ge0rG marc: http://ajaxian.com/archives/uri-vs-url-whats-the-difference
  154. marc Ge0rG, I'm glad to hear this ;)
  155. marc Ge0rG, I know the difference between URI and URL
  156. marc Ge0rG, What's your point? :D
  157. jonasw Ge0rG, do you find it ironic that your link has UTF-8 mojibake?
  158. jonasw > depending on the client’s capabilities
  159. Ge0rG marc: my point is that by using "uri" and "url" in the response, you imply they are different representations of the same thing, whereas they are different things, more or less.
  160. Ge0rG jonasw: yes. Sorry.
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  162. marc Ge0rG, yes, that's correct so we'll change this. But 'landing_url' or 'invitation_url' are okay in my opinion
  163. Ge0rG marc: "jonasw> please no underscores in XML"
  164. marc oh, missed that :D
  165. marc What's the reason?
  166. jonasw it’s ugly
  167. jonasw we don’t do it in XMPP so far, AFAIK
  168. Ge0rG jonasw: would you be ok with `landing-url`?
  169. jonasw (the only exception possibly features for PubSub)
  170. jonasw sure
  171. marc Just for reasons of appearance?
  172. jonasw marc, yes :)
  173. marc Ok, I like this :D
  174. SouL landingUrl
  175. zinid CamelCase
  176. Ge0rG <x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='result'> <title>Invitation</title> <reported> <field var='uri' label='Invitation link'/> <field var='landing-url' label='Landing Page'/> <field var='expire' label='Expiration Time'/> </reported> <item> <field var='uri'><value>xmpp:georg@yax.im?add;preauth=aG5axoo8iagahS9o;ibr</value></field> <field var='landing-url'><value>https://yax.im/i/#georg@yax.im?add;preauth=aG5axoo8iagahS9o;ibr</value></field> <field var='expire'><value>2017-12-17T02:56:15Z</value></field> </item> </x>
  177. Ge0rG marc: like this?
  178. jonasw aaaa
  179. jonasw data tables
  180. jonasw I’m afraid of data tables
  181. marc Ge0rG, looks similar to my XEP yes :D
  182. marc But I don't use reported
  183. jonasw I’m afraid (literally) that Ge0rG is right in his use of reported.
  184. marc I think that's only necessary if you have multiple <item> elements
  185. jonasw marc, using a form would be the wrong semantic here.
  186. zinid and I don't have reported support in ejabberd
  187. zinid great
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  189. marc :D
  190. jonasw zinid, I know that feel
  191. Ge0rG I've combined an example from ad-hoc with what marc wrote in his XEP.
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  193. jonasw damn
  194. jonasw I was hoping that Ad-Hoc might forbid that
  195. marc :D
  196. marc <iq type='result' to='romeo@example.com' from='example.com' id='exec2'> <command xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/commands' sessionid='config:20020923T213616Z-700' node='invite' status='completed'> <x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='result'> <item> <field var='uri'> <value>xmpp:example.com?register;invite-token=TOKEN</value> </field> <field var='landing-url'> <value>https://example.com/invite/#TOKEN</value> </field> <field var='expire'> <value>2017-11-06T02:56:15Z</value> </field> </item> </x> </command> </iq>
  197. marc Ignore the XMPP URI...
  198. jonasw let me delve into the horros and re-read XEP-0004 on the reported thing
  199. Holger > (the only exception possibly features for PubSub) IIRC we use _ and - inconsistently there \o/
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  201. marc Time to update the XEP then ;)
  202. jonasw it isn’t clear to me whether <reported/> is required when type='result' is used
  203. jonasw there is no normative language regarding that afaict
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  206. mathieui btw, xmpp.net: “ It's too busy, try again later. ”
  207. jonasw again?
  208. jonasw I need to fix that issue which makes some domains break the queue
  209. jonasw but I was hoping not having to touch PHP
  210. SouL underscores for the win!
  211. moparisthebest marc: I also hacked it into my conversations fork and have been using it for a month or so, works great
  212. marc moparisthebest, how do you send SMS? How do you select the recipient?
  213. moparisthebest The hard part has been designing a plugin API but I'm almost done with that too
  214. moparisthebest The local part of the jid
  215. marc moparisthebest, so you just add a contact to the roster?
  216. moparisthebest marc: I don't really bother with that yet
  217. moparisthebest https://github.com/moparisthebest/Conversations/tree/sms
  218. moparisthebest That's the hacky code, expect conversations pr and separate stand alone plugin in a few days
  219. marc moparisthebest, hehe nice :)
  220. moparisthebest marc: if you're much of an Android dev I want MMS with attachments to convert to/from http upload too but MMS on Android looks like a nightmare...
  221. jonasw s/MMS/anything/
  222. jonasw hm, that was unfortunate
  223. jonasw s/MMS/anything/;s/anything/MMS/ should fix it
  224. moparisthebest SMS isn't bad, but yes this is all way worse than plain Java
  225. jonasw and plain java is already bad ;-)
  226. SouL What did you say!?
  227. marc moparisthebest, I'm not really an Android dev :D
  228. moparisthebest jonasw: well it's no rust, but at least it's not erlang :)
  229. marc moparisthebest, what happens if you have two Conversations clients with your plugin? :)
  230. moparisthebest marc: badness
  231. marc :D
  232. moparisthebest Double sms I'd guess
  233. jonasw moparisthebest, actually, I need to look into erlang.
  234. jonasw that video is convincing
  235. marc I like Erlang somehow :)
  236. SouL jonasw, do you have a link for it? I forgot to bookmark it
  237. moparisthebest Erlang http://howfuckedismydatabase.com/nosql/
  238. jonasw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE
  239. jonasw there you go
  240. marc moparisthebest, do you have plans to fix this or support it?
  241. moparisthebest marc: which
  242. marc moparisthebest, multiple SMS-capable devices
  243. moparisthebest marc: each could pick it's own different echo component and then it'd all work fine
  244. moparisthebest And yes the plugin will support that
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  246. marc moparisthebest, but isn't the idea to allow sending SMS from desktop-clients, for example?
  247. moparisthebest Oh wait marc so all connected xmpp clients can send SMS
  248. moparisthebest Only the one conversations needs the plugin
  249. moparisthebest Others need nothing new or special
  250. moparisthebest That all works today
  251. marc Sure but what if I have two smartphones
  252. marc Or two SIM cards?
  253. moparisthebest That when you'd need a seperate echo domain for each
  254. moparisthebest Otherwise you don't know what number to send with
  255. marc moparisthebest, okay, can you somehow select which echo domain to be used?
  256. moparisthebest Yes
  257. moparisthebest Not in the hacky version with no options
  258. moparisthebest Plugin version will support this
  259. marc moparisthebest, sounds promising :)
  260. marc moparisthebest, But selection of the SMS-device will need support in other clients as well, right?
  261. moparisthebest Now I don't have a phone with 2 Sim cards so that will be harder
  262. moparisthebest No
  263. moparisthebest All other clients see is a regular xmpp chat
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  265. marc moparisthebest, how do you decide the SIM card/device? phonenumber@echo-sim1 and phonenumber@echo-sim2 ?
  266. moparisthebest The phone knows anything sent to echo.burtrum.org or whatever goes out via SMS
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  271. Guus Hi all - I'm attempting to arrange for a hotel discount for the upcoming Summit and Fosdem in Brussels (February 1st - 4th). To get some kind of headcount, it'd be good if you could sign up on the wiki page if you're planning to be there: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22
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  279. Ge0rG moparisthebest> All other clients see is a regular xmpp chat Why is this message duplicated in my client? Meh.
  280. zinid I constantly receive duplicates
  281. Ge0rG zinid: it should be filtered away by yaxim's deduplicator.
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  283. zinid yeah, heuristics
  284. Ge0rG Unfortunately, my client doesn't have a log going back 20mins, and my server doesn't log outgoing c2s stanzas. Meh.
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  287. Ge0rG zinid: MUC message (ID) rewriting makes heuristics a required feature.
  288. zinid Ge0rG, I know
  289. jonasw Ge0rG, why do you see different peoples messages twice though?
  290. Ge0rG Ok, now this is just getting more and more weird. prosody only delivered that message ID once to my yaxim.
  291. Ge0rG jonasw: it's only a single message from a single person duplicated.
  292. Ge0rG Maybe my MSN just rejoined the MUC, but I should get the message as part of history then.
  293. Ge0rG Okay, there was a 0198 reconnect just in that moment.
  294. Ge0rG Something fishy is going on, and I don't know what it is.
  295. Ge0rG Will increase logcat buffer to 16M now.
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  299. pep. jonasw, Ge0rG, thanks for the links! (PARS)
  300. zinid Ge0rG, does yaxim dump XML traffic in logcat?
  301. Ge0rG zinid: if you enable it, yes.
  302. zinid Ge0rG, nice
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  304. jonasw sounds like an off-by-one in the stream management handling
  305. jonasw reminds me of early aioxmpp's reconnect loops when a broken stanza was received. broken stanza -> exception -> disconnect stream -> resume stream management -> receive same broken stanza
  306. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah, well possible. But I know for sure that I've fixed the off-by-ones in yaxim. It was a long and complex process
  307. Ge0rG jonasw: if you close the stream, you are not allowed to resume.
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  309. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m not sure that the stream was closed cleanly. it’s been a while.
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  316. marc Ge0rG, are you fine with 'invite' and 'create-account' ad-hoc command names?
  317. Ge0rG marc: yeah
  318. jonasw what are the semantics of those commands again?
  319. marc jonasw, invite a user, create an account (optinal with predefined username) :)
  320. jonasw create an account we already have an adhoc for that
  321. Ge0rG jonasw: the former will create a PARS link with an "ibr" tag.
  322. marc latter is for admins or other privileged users
  323. Ge0rG jonasw: do we?
  324. Ge0rG jonasw: the goal is for the admin to define the user name, and then the user can use IBR to specify their password.
  325. marc Ge0rG, jonasw I tink we had this exact same disucussion a couple of days ago :D
  326. jonasw https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0133.html#add-user
  327. jonasw Ge0rG, ah okay
  328. jonasw ahh, so it’s invite minus PARS
  329. marc I think the wording was exactly the same :D
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  331. Ge0rG jonasw: no, it's a "I define a username and send a link" thing
  332. Ge0rG jonasw: so it's rather PARS-for-accounts
  333. Ge0rG jonasw: and it implies PARS between inviter and invitee
  334. jonasw Ge0rG, how is that different from "invite minus PARS"?
  335. jonasw no wait
  336. jonasw so create-account allows for IBR registration, but also PARS?
  337. jonasw what’s the difference to invite then?
  338. marc invite gives you the possiblity to create an account or just make server-side PARS
  339. marc account-creation creates an account on the server
  340. jonasw and create-account forces account creation?
  341. marc yes
  342. jonasw I see
  343. marc jonasw, any objections so far? :)
  344. jonasw make sure you make that distinction clear in the document and provide use cases which support that distinction
  345. Ge0rG jonasw: create-account is for admins who want to enroll friends. invite is for users of (semi)public servers.
  346. Ge0rG jonasw: a server admin can use invite if they don't want to pre-define the account name
  347. jonasw Ge0rG, I don’t see why I wouldn’t use invite as an admin, too?
  348. Ge0rG jonasw: however, there is no guarantee that an invite will lead to account creation
  349. Ge0rG jonasw: if the user already has an account, invite will merely fall-back to PARS
  350. jonasw win
  351. jonasw why wouldn’t I want that?
  352. Ge0rG jonasw: what?
  353. Ge0rG Sigh. Something just happened, and now my yaxim got reset.
  354. Ge0rG like, all-data-lost-app-reset.
  355. jonasw why would I want force people to create an account?
  356. jonasw if they already have one?
  357. jonasw especially if they still could create an account with 'invite' if they wanted to
  358. jonasw create-account seems to have only limitations in my eyes
  359. jonasw and I’m failing to see the use-case for that
  360. marc jonasw, if you want to ensure that set of users is on your server, for example if you don't use E2EE :D
  361. Ge0rG jonasw: it's because marc insists that you want to have all your friends on your server.
  362. jonasw I see
  363. jonasw I don’t follow that argument, but okay
  364. jonasw I don’t care as long as both works and I don’t have to use create-account :)
  365. Ge0rG jonasw: I see create-account as a feature I can use to easily onboard my grand-aunt.
  366. jonasw why don’t use invite for that?
  367. jonasw why not use invite for that?
  368. jonasw ah, because they have to choose an account name
  369. Ge0rG right
  370. jonasw but then again, clients could offer default names based on the screenname, as was discussed earlier here, IIRC
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  372. marc Maybe you have a company or other organization where you have to enforce that all memebers are on a "special" server. For privacy reasons, for example.
  373. Ge0rG marc: good point.
  374. jonasw indeed
  375. Ge0rG marc: mention it in the rationale / user-story
  376. jonasw yes
  377. marc Ge0rG, thanks!
  378. Ge0rG the XSF loves corporate rollouts
  379. jonasw that’s the kind of example I was looking for :)
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  381. marc Okay, good that we agree on that :) I'm happy now
  382. jonasw (even though corporate onboarding will probably work very different)
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  398. marc jonasw, yes, but this depends of how big the "organization" is
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  400. marc s/of/on
  401. jonasw normally there would be some kind of single-sign-on in place and the xmppd may not even have privilegues to create an account there. but sure, there may be use-cases.
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  411. moparisthebest Ge0rG, don't know why it was duplicated, at the time I only had conversations running so single client even
  412. Ge0rG moparisthebest: looks like it was a yaxim bug, but we'll never find out. Sorry for bothering you.
  413. zinid but people already have accounts (twitter, google), why do you want to register them on your server?
  414. moparisthebest Ge0rG, no bother, conversations has a method for guessing if a message is the same not sure if you can copy it
  415. zinid why we cannot use oauth, like all others do?
  416. marc zinid, oauth is about authorization, you still need to create an account, right?
  417. zinid marc, right
  418. marc zinid, what's you point regarding the account creation / user invitation proposal then?
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  420. zinid marc, you need no account creation
  421. zinid you can create it on the fly at first login
  422. marc zinid, you're talking about public servers, right?
  423. zinid marc, I would use it on my private server too, why not?
  424. marc zinid, okay, I have a private server and want somebody to join it
  425. marc zinid, what's your protocol flow then?
  426. zinid I'm not talking about invitation
  427. zinid this is a separate subject
  428. Ge0rG Step 1: troll everyone Step 2: ??? Step 3: PROFIT!
  429. SouL Hahaha
  430. zinid Ge0rG, wow, oauth is trolling now?
  431. marc zinid, but we were talking about invitation
  432. zinid > why would I want force people to create an account? I replied to this ^^^
  433. Ge0rG zinid: with oauth, you can connect to an existing account. but you can't xmpp-connect to a service not offering xmpp
  434. zinid what?
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  436. Ge0rG zinid: you could create an xmpp account by logging in with an oauth provider and using that provider as "identity verification"
  437. zinid so what?
  438. Ge0rG zinid: you can't login to twitter with an xmpp client
  439. zinid I can
  440. zinid for user this will be transparent
  441. zinid you choose an xmpp server, provides oauth provider and it's done
  442. Ge0rG zinid: so you will still create an xmpp account?
  443. zinid sure
  444. zinid in an automatic way
  445. zinid the point is that it's pain in ass to keep all accounts with passwords for a user
  446. Ge0rG zinid: so instead of a password, you use an oauth token issued by Faceoogle?
  447. zinid yes
  448. zinid or how it's called, I don't remember details
  449. zinid you can fetch address book and send invites by the way
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  533. mathieui https://help.aol.com/articles/aim-discontinued RIP.
  534. pep. What a shame
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  536. edhelas time to replace it with another protocol
  537. mathieui there’s nothing to replace
  538. mathieui nobody was using it
  539. pep. "Can I still use AIM between now and December 15?", *now* being Dec 11th.
  540. Ge0rG more users than XMPP? :P
  541. Ge0rG But ICQ is still running?
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  552. ThurahT by now I've helped ~15 people to convert to xmpp. And I never even had AIM.. : )
  553. Ge0rG has joined
  554. Ge0rG ThurahT: are they all on jabber.org? :D
  555. ThurahT yeah, I wanted only the best for them
  556. SamWhited not sure if…
  557. ThurahT : )
  558. Ge0rG smells sarcasm
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  560. jonasw when the news broke that AIM was about to be discontinued, I suggested to set up an XMPP domain which focuses on easy conversion from AIM
  561. jonasw nobody had the time though :)
  562. Ge0rG jonasw: such an irony
  563. ThurahT I had a few who might have needed that. But eventually they caught on setting servers up.
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  655. zinid jonasw, don't be sad, that was pointless anyway, everyone is "converted" into whatsapp 🙂
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