XSF Discussion - 2017-12-15

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00:15:42 pep. Ge0rG, can you point me to a thread for PARS? (on standards?)
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08:11:54 Ge0rG It's in the June 2016 archive I think, will look up from PC later
08:16:12 jonasw LMSTFY
08:17:59 jonasw pep., https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-June/031150.html https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-April/032599.html https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-May/032616.html (if you get a chance, Ge0rG, please confirm that this is the thread you meant to link)
08:18:08 jonasw (those are three links, but it’s the same thread, mailman archive is stupid)
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08:19:09 Ge0rG jonasw: thanks, those are exactly the right links
08:19:13 jonasw Ge0rG, yw
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09:11:36 marc There was some guy who proposed a protocol to access SMS via XMPP from multiple clients. What happend with this protocol/idea?
09:12:48 Ge0rG marc: are you talking about https://jmp.chat/ or moparisthebest' self-echo component?
09:12:59 Ge0rG https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self
09:13:03 marc Ge0rG, probably the self-echo stuff
09:13:18 marc GitHub not reachable... fuck ... :D
09:13:44 Zash Allow me to point and laugh
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10:00:47 marc Ge0rG, do we need to return the TOKEN (ad-hoc command)?
10:01:46 marc Could be used as manual fallback but apart from that I don't know a good reason to return it
10:02:06 Ge0rG marc: we MUST return an xmpp: URI and we MAY return a web URI
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10:02:31 marc Ge0rG, yes, I know but this wasn't the question :P
10:03:28 Ge0rG marc: my answer was supposed to be comprehensive, so we should not return anything beyond that
10:05:44 Ge0rG marc: one could think about adding a description text, token validity info, onboarding information etc.; but I think a minimal protocol is beneficial
10:06:10 marc Ge0rG, well I already have defined a token expiration field :)
10:07:23 Ge0rG marc: I think that URI and URL are not the right names, BTW.
10:07:48 marc Ge0rG, I'm open for suggestions :)
10:09:35 Ge0rG marc: I'd go with `uri` for the xmpp: link, but something like `landingpage` or `web` for the https
10:10:30 marc yeah, but it should contain 'url' I think
10:10:41 marc something like landing_url
10:10:45 marc maybe...
10:10:56 jonasw please no underscores in XML
10:11:05 Ge0rG marc: after thinking about it, it's okay to return the validity to the inviter. Their client could create an i18ned message to share, like "Hi, I would like to invite you to chat with me under <https://...>. This link will expire in 2 weeks."
10:11:22 Ge0rG marc: http://ajaxian.com/archives/uri-vs-url-whats-the-difference
10:11:56 marc Ge0rG, I'm glad to hear this ;)
10:12:34 marc Ge0rG, I know the difference between URI and URL
10:12:39 marc Ge0rG, What's your point? :D
10:12:42 jonasw Ge0rG, do you find it ironic that your link has UTF-8 mojibake?
10:12:58 jonasw > depending on the clientâ€™s capabilities
10:13:06 Ge0rG marc: my point is that by using "uri" and "url" in the response, you imply they are different representations of the same thing, whereas they are different things, more or less.
10:13:25 Ge0rG jonasw: yes. Sorry.
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10:15:09 marc Ge0rG, yes, that's correct so we'll change this. But 'landing_url' or 'invitation_url' are okay in my opinion
10:15:35 Ge0rG marc: "jonasw> please no underscores in XML"
10:16:08 marc oh, missed that :D
10:16:15 marc What's the reason?
10:16:23 jonasw it’s ugly
10:16:30 jonasw we don’t do it in XMPP so far, AFAIK
10:16:41 Ge0rG jonasw: would you be ok with `landing-url`?
10:16:41 jonasw (the only exception possibly features for PubSub)
10:16:44 jonasw sure
10:16:55 marc Just for reasons of appearance?
10:17:01 jonasw marc, yes :)
10:17:16 marc Ok, I like this :D
10:19:14 SouL landingUrl
10:19:59 zinid CamelCase
10:20:08 Ge0rG <x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='result'> <title>Invitation</title> <reported> <field var='uri' label='Invitation link'/> <field var='landing-url' label='Landing Page'/> <field var='expire' label='Expiration Time'/> </reported> <item> <field var='uri'><value>xmpp:georg@yax.im?add;preauth=aG5axoo8iagahS9o;ibr</value></field> <field var='landing-url'><value>https://yax.im/i/#georg@yax.im?add;preauth=aG5axoo8iagahS9o;ibr</value></field> <field var='expire'><value>2017-12-17T02:56:15Z</value></field> </item> </x>
10:20:20 Ge0rG marc: like this?
10:20:23 jonasw aaaa
10:20:25 jonasw data tables
10:20:28 jonasw I’m afraid of data tables
10:20:50 marc Ge0rG, looks similar to my XEP yes :D
10:21:00 marc But I don't use reported
10:21:17 jonasw I’m afraid (literally) that Ge0rG is right in his use of reported.
10:21:19 marc I think that's only necessary if you have multiple <item> elements
10:21:38 jonasw marc, using a form would be the wrong semantic here.
10:21:51 zinid and I don't have reported support in ejabberd
10:21:52 zinid great
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10:22:02 marc :D
10:22:14 jonasw zinid, I know that feel
10:22:17 Ge0rG I've combined an example from ad-hoc with what marc wrote in his XEP.
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10:22:22 jonasw damn
10:22:28 jonasw I was hoping that Ad-Hoc might forbid that
10:22:45 marc :D
10:22:52 marc <iq type='result' to='romeo@example.com' from='example.com' id='exec2'> <command xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/commands' sessionid='config:20020923T213616Z-700' node='invite' status='completed'> <x xmlns='jabber:x:data' type='result'> <item> <field var='uri'> <value>xmpp:example.com?register;invite-token=TOKEN</value> </field> <field var='landing-url'> <value>https://example.com/invite/#TOKEN</value> </field> <field var='expire'> <value>2017-11-06T02:56:15Z</value> </field> </item> </x> </command> </iq>
10:23:01 marc Ignore the XMPP URI...
10:23:34 jonasw let me delve into the horros and re-read XEP-0004 on the reported thing
10:24:42 Holger > (the only exception possibly features for PubSub) IIRC we use _ and - inconsistently there \o/
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10:25:14 marc Time to update the XEP then ;)
10:25:58 jonasw it isn’t clear to me whether <reported/> is required when type='result' is used
10:26:07 jonasw there is no normative language regarding that afaict
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10:28:55 mathieui btw, xmpp.net: “ It's too busy, try again later. ”
10:29:22 jonasw again?
10:29:46 jonasw I need to fix that issue which makes some domains break the queue
10:29:58 jonasw but I was hoping not having to touch PHP
10:30:59 SouL underscores for the win!
10:31:02 moparisthebest marc: I also hacked it into my conversations fork and have been using it for a month or so, works great
10:31:37 marc moparisthebest, how do you send SMS? How do you select the recipient?
10:31:45 moparisthebest The hard part has been designing a plugin API but I'm almost done with that too
10:31:59 moparisthebest The local part of the jid
10:32:21 marc moparisthebest, so you just add a contact to the roster?
10:33:54 moparisthebest marc: I don't really bother with that yet
10:33:57 moparisthebest https://github.com/moparisthebest/Conversations/tree/sms
10:34:59 moparisthebest That's the hacky code, expect conversations pr and separate stand alone plugin in a few days
10:35:11 marc moparisthebest, hehe nice :)
10:53:21 moparisthebest marc: if you're much of an Android dev I want MMS with attachments to convert to/from http upload too but MMS on Android looks like a nightmare...
10:53:40 jonasw s/MMS/anything/
10:53:45 jonasw hm, that was unfortunate
10:53:54 jonasw s/MMS/anything/;s/anything/MMS/ should fix it
10:54:49 moparisthebest SMS isn't bad, but yes this is all way worse than plain Java
10:55:09 jonasw and plain java is already bad ;-)
10:55:20 SouL What did you say!?
10:55:48 marc moparisthebest, I'm not really an Android dev :D
10:57:21 moparisthebest jonasw: well it's no rust, but at least it's not erlang :)
10:57:27 marc moparisthebest, what happens if you have two Conversations clients with your plugin? :)
10:57:36 moparisthebest marc: badness
10:57:43 marc :D
10:57:52 moparisthebest Double sms I'd guess
10:57:53 jonasw moparisthebest, actually, I need to look into erlang.
10:58:08 jonasw that video is convincing
10:58:10 marc I like Erlang somehow :)
10:58:33 SouL jonasw, do you have a link for it? I forgot to bookmark it
10:58:43 moparisthebest Erlang http://howfuckedismydatabase.com/nosql/
10:58:45 jonasw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE
10:58:46 jonasw there you go
10:58:55 marc moparisthebest, do you have plans to fix this or support it?
10:59:23 moparisthebest marc: which
10:59:59 marc moparisthebest, multiple SMS-capable devices
11:02:42 moparisthebest marc: each could pick it's own different echo component and then it'd all work fine
11:02:54 moparisthebest And yes the plugin will support that
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11:03:33 marc moparisthebest, but isn't the idea to allow sending SMS from desktop-clients, for example?
11:03:48 moparisthebest Oh wait marc so all connected xmpp clients can send SMS
11:04:00 moparisthebest Only the one conversations needs the plugin
11:04:11 moparisthebest Others need nothing new or special
11:04:19 moparisthebest That all works today
11:04:21 marc Sure but what if I have two smartphones
11:04:28 marc Or two SIM cards?
11:04:55 moparisthebest That when you'd need a seperate echo domain for each
11:05:33 moparisthebest Otherwise you don't know what number to send with
11:06:02 marc moparisthebest, okay, can you somehow select which echo domain to be used?
11:06:14 moparisthebest Yes
11:06:30 moparisthebest Not in the hacky version with no options
11:06:40 moparisthebest Plugin version will support this
11:06:48 marc moparisthebest, sounds promising :)
11:07:20 marc moparisthebest, But selection of the SMS-device will need support in other clients as well, right?
11:07:30 moparisthebest Now I don't have a phone with 2 Sim cards so that will be harder
11:07:34 moparisthebest No
11:07:51 moparisthebest All other clients see is a regular xmpp chat
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11:08:26 marc moparisthebest, how do you decide the SIM card/device? phonenumber@echo-sim1 and phonenumber@echo-sim2 ?
11:08:30 moparisthebest The phone knows anything sent to echo.burtrum.org or whatever goes out via SMS
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11:21:56 Guus Hi all - I'm attempting to arrange for a hotel discount for the upcoming Summit and Fosdem in Brussels (February 1st - 4th). To get some kind of headcount, it'd be good if you could sign up on the wiki page if you're planning to be there: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22
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11:27:42 Ge0rG moparisthebest> All other clients see is a regular xmpp chat Why is this message duplicated in my client? Meh.
11:28:47 zinid I constantly receive duplicates
11:29:12 Ge0rG zinid: it should be filtered away by yaxim's deduplicator.
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11:30:42 zinid yeah, heuristics
11:31:01 Ge0rG Unfortunately, my client doesn't have a log going back 20mins, and my server doesn't log outgoing c2s stanzas. Meh.
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11:32:01 Ge0rG zinid: MUC message (ID) rewriting makes heuristics a required feature.
11:32:10 zinid Ge0rG, I know
11:33:52 jonasw Ge0rG, why do you see different peoples messages twice though?
11:34:14 Ge0rG Ok, now this is just getting more and more weird. prosody only delivered that message ID once to my yaxim.
11:34:25 Ge0rG jonasw: it's only a single message from a single person duplicated.
11:34:49 Ge0rG Maybe my MSN just rejoined the MUC, but I should get the message as part of history then.
11:37:49 Ge0rG Okay, there was a 0198 reconnect just in that moment.
11:38:00 Ge0rG Something fishy is going on, and I don't know what it is.
11:39:27 Ge0rG Will increase logcat buffer to 16M now.
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11:47:38 pep. jonasw, Ge0rG, thanks for the links! (PARS)
11:47:41 zinid Ge0rG, does yaxim dump XML traffic in logcat?
11:48:23 Ge0rG zinid: if you enable it, yes.
11:48:28 zinid Ge0rG, nice
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11:50:05 jonasw sounds like an off-by-one in the stream management handling
11:50:33 jonasw reminds me of early aioxmpp's reconnect loops when a broken stanza was received. broken stanza -> exception -> disconnect stream -> resume stream management -> receive same broken stanza
11:51:19 Ge0rG jonasw: yeah, well possible. But I know for sure that I've fixed the off-by-ones in yaxim. It was a long and complex process
11:51:42 Ge0rG jonasw: if you close the stream, you are not allowed to resume.
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11:52:06 jonasw Ge0rG, I’m not sure that the stream was closed cleanly. it’s been a while.
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12:13:37 marc Ge0rG, are you fine with 'invite' and 'create-account' ad-hoc command names?
12:14:02 Ge0rG marc: yeah
12:14:19 jonasw what are the semantics of those commands again?
12:14:43 marc jonasw, invite a user, create an account (optinal with predefined username) :)
12:14:53 jonasw create an account we already have an adhoc for that
12:14:57 Ge0rG jonasw: the former will create a PARS link with an "ibr" tag.
12:15:05 marc latter is for admins or other privileged users
12:15:08 Ge0rG jonasw: do we?
12:15:34 Ge0rG jonasw: the goal is for the admin to define the user name, and then the user can use IBR to specify their password.
12:16:03 marc Ge0rG, jonasw I tink we had this exact same disucussion a couple of days ago :D
12:16:13 jonasw https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0133.html#add-user
12:16:17 jonasw Ge0rG, ah okay
12:16:23 jonasw ahh, so it’s invite minus PARS
12:16:29 marc I think the wording was exactly the same :D
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12:17:15 Ge0rG jonasw: no, it's a "I define a username and send a link" thing
12:17:24 Ge0rG jonasw: so it's rather PARS-for-accounts
12:17:41 Ge0rG jonasw: and it implies PARS between inviter and invitee
12:18:07 jonasw Ge0rG, how is that different from "invite minus PARS"?
12:18:12 jonasw no wait
12:18:20 jonasw so create-account allows for IBR registration, but also PARS?
12:18:24 jonasw what’s the difference to invite then?
12:19:01 marc invite gives you the possiblity to create an account or just make server-side PARS
12:19:13 marc account-creation creates an account on the server
12:19:18 jonasw and create-account forces account creation?
12:19:25 marc yes
12:19:29 jonasw I see
12:19:59 marc jonasw, any objections so far? :)
12:20:03 jonasw make sure you make that distinction clear in the document and provide use cases which support that distinction
12:20:58 Ge0rG jonasw: create-account is for admins who want to enroll friends. invite is for users of (semi)public servers.
12:21:16 Ge0rG jonasw: a server admin can use invite if they don't want to pre-define the account name
12:21:19 jonasw Ge0rG, I don’t see why I wouldn’t use invite as an admin, too?
12:21:35 Ge0rG jonasw: however, there is no guarantee that an invite will lead to account creation
12:21:47 Ge0rG jonasw: if the user already has an account, invite will merely fall-back to PARS
12:21:53 jonasw win
12:21:57 jonasw why wouldn’t I want that?
12:22:15 Ge0rG jonasw: what?
12:22:44 Ge0rG Sigh. Something just happened, and now my yaxim got reset.
12:23:01 Ge0rG like, all-data-lost-app-reset.
12:23:05 jonasw why would I want force people to create an account?
12:23:14 jonasw if they already have one?
12:23:24 jonasw especially if they still could create an account with 'invite' if they wanted to
12:23:33 jonasw create-account seems to have only limitations in my eyes
12:23:44 jonasw and I’m failing to see the use-case for that
12:23:45 marc jonasw, if you want to ensure that set of users is on your server, for example if you don't use E2EE :D
12:24:07 Ge0rG jonasw: it's because marc insists that you want to have all your friends on your server.
12:24:13 jonasw I see
12:24:20 jonasw I don’t follow that argument, but okay
12:24:37 jonasw I don’t care as long as both works and I don’t have to use create-account :)
12:25:05 Ge0rG jonasw: I see create-account as a feature I can use to easily onboard my grand-aunt.
12:25:17 jonasw why don’t use invite for that?
12:25:22 jonasw why not use invite for that?
12:25:31 jonasw ah, because they have to choose an account name
12:25:34 Ge0rG right
12:25:47 jonasw but then again, clients could offer default names based on the screenname, as was discussed earlier here, IIRC
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12:26:29 marc Maybe you have a company or other organization where you have to enforce that all memebers are on a "special" server. For privacy reasons, for example.
12:26:43 Ge0rG marc: good point.
12:26:49 jonasw indeed
12:26:50 Ge0rG marc: mention it in the rationale / user-story
12:26:52 jonasw yes
12:26:52 marc Ge0rG, thanks!
12:26:56 Ge0rG the XSF loves corporate rollouts
12:26:57 jonasw that’s the kind of example I was looking for :)
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12:27:11 marc Okay, good that we agree on that :) I'm happy now
12:27:14 jonasw (even though corporate onboarding will probably work very different)
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12:57:16 marc jonasw, yes, but this depends of how big the "organization" is
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12:58:18 marc s/of/on
12:58:20 jonasw normally there would be some kind of single-sign-on in place and the xmppd may not even have privilegues to create an account there. but sure, there may be use-cases.
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13:21:14 moparisthebest Ge0rG, don't know why it was duplicated, at the time I only had conversations running so single client even
13:22:52 Ge0rG moparisthebest: looks like it was a yaxim bug, but we'll never find out. Sorry for bothering you.
13:23:10 zinid but people already have accounts (twitter, google), why do you want to register them on your server?
13:23:18 moparisthebest Ge0rG, no bother, conversations has a method for guessing if a message is the same not sure if you can copy it
13:23:27 zinid why we cannot use oauth, like all others do?
13:28:29 marc zinid, oauth is about authorization, you still need to create an account, right?
13:29:08 zinid marc, right
13:30:28 marc zinid, what's you point regarding the account creation / user invitation proposal then?
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13:30:53 zinid marc, you need no account creation
13:31:03 zinid you can create it on the fly at first login
13:31:30 marc zinid, you're talking about public servers, right?
13:31:44 zinid marc, I would use it on my private server too, why not?
13:32:19 marc zinid, okay, I have a private server and want somebody to join it
13:32:35 marc zinid, what's your protocol flow then?
13:32:43 zinid I'm not talking about invitation
13:32:51 zinid this is a separate subject
13:32:55 Ge0rG Step 1: troll everyone Step 2: ??? Step 3: PROFIT!
13:33:25 SouL Hahaha
13:33:44 zinid Ge0rG, wow, oauth is trolling now?
13:33:47 marc zinid, but we were talking about invitation
13:34:15 zinid > why would I want force people to create an account? I replied to this ^^^
13:34:59 Ge0rG zinid: with oauth, you can connect to an existing account. but you can't xmpp-connect to a service not offering xmpp
13:35:20 zinid what?
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13:35:32 Ge0rG zinid: you could create an xmpp account by logging in with an oauth provider and using that provider as "identity verification"
13:35:45 zinid so what?
13:35:55 Ge0rG zinid: you can't login to twitter with an xmpp client
13:36:02 zinid I can
13:36:09 zinid for user this will be transparent
13:36:35 zinid you choose an xmpp server, provides oauth provider and it's done
13:37:17 Ge0rG zinid: so you will still create an xmpp account?
13:37:29 zinid sure
13:37:46 zinid in an automatic way
13:38:41 zinid the point is that it's pain in ass to keep all accounts with passwords for a user
13:39:33 Ge0rG zinid: so instead of a password, you use an oauth token issued by Faceoogle?
13:39:41 zinid yes
13:39:53 zinid or how it's called, I don't remember details
13:40:35 zinid you can fetch address book and send invites by the way
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16:25:58 mathieui https://help.aol.com/articles/aim-discontinued RIP.
16:28:10 pep. What a shame
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16:28:30 edhelas time to replace it with another protocol
16:29:55 mathieui there’s nothing to replace
16:30:02 mathieui nobody was using it
16:30:44 pep. "Can I still use AIM between now and December 15?", *now* being Dec 11th.
16:30:45 Ge0rG more users than XMPP? :P
16:31:19 Ge0rG But ICQ is still running?
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16:47:32 ThurahT by now I've helped ~15 people to convert to xmpp. And I never even had AIM.. : )
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16:50:37 Ge0rG ThurahT: are they all on jabber.org? :D
16:50:51 ThurahT yeah, I wanted only the best for them
16:51:02 SamWhited not sure if…
16:51:09 ThurahT : )
16:51:32 Ge0rG smells sarcasm
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16:52:12 jonasw when the news broke that AIM was about to be discontinued, I suggested to set up an XMPP domain which focuses on easy conversion from AIM
16:52:53 jonasw nobody had the time though :)
16:53:05 Ge0rG jonasw: such an irony
16:53:16 ThurahT I had a few who might have needed that. But eventually they caught on setting servers up.
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20:02:21 zinid jonasw, don't be sad, that was pointless anyway, everyone is "converted" into whatsapp 🙂
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