XSF Discussion - 2017-12-17

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  147. marc Is there a XML command list for XEPs?
  148. jonasw marc, I don’t understand the question
  149. marc jonasw, commands like <strong>
  150. marc "commands"
  151. jonasw ah
  152. marc tags
  153. jonasw you can read xep.dtd
  154. jonasw (well, if you can read DTDs ;))
  155. marc Yeah, a bit
  156. jonasw but that’s the normative reference for things which currently work in XEPs, as everything gets validated against that IIRC
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  158. marc I need a tag to make an indention like a list but without bullet points
  159. jonasw I don’t think we have that
  160. jonasw why?
  161. marc Argh :D
  162. marc Because it would look nice ;)
  163. jonasw what are you going to use it for?
  164. marc To "highlight" something
  165. marc Hard to describe ;)
  166. jonasw would be useful if you could be more specific
  167. jonasw there are example blocks for examples which may be useful
  168. marc Yeah, but it's an URI and not XML
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  170. jonasw does that matter?
  171. jonasw I don’t think that examples necessarily have to be XML
  172. marc Yeah, but the example block is very big for just a single line :D
  173. jonasw maybe just a code block without example?
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  175. jonasw like I used for the test vectors here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#algorithm-example-simple
  176. marc Hm, somehow it looks strange
  177. marc Doesn't matter for now :D
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  180. marc jonasw, Can I just copy paste from other XEPs?
  181. jonasw what do you want to copy&paste?
  182. jonasw citing would be more appropriate in many cases (use &xep1234; for that)
  183. marc Puh, but this would make reading this XEP very stressful
  184. jonasw the issue would be to keep things up-to-date if wording in the referenced xep changes, so I’d discourage that.
  185. marc I would copy some parts from https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html#link_transmission for example
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  189. jonasw that is a prime example where quoting would be more appropriate
  190. jonasw that is a prime example where citing would be more appropriate
  191. Ge0rG jonasw: I've heard that
  192. jonasw Ge0rG, what’dya hear?
  193. Ge0rG jonasw: you criticizing my XEP :P
  194. jonasw do I?
  195. jonasw am I?
  196. jonasw I can’t english today.
  197. Ge0rG I can't today.
  198. marc Ge0rG, what do you think? quoting or copying?
  199. Ge0rG marc: what do you want to present? the returned URL?
  200. marc Ge0rG, provide information about the landing page
  201. Ge0rG marc: <div class="example"> :P
  202. jonasw I think you are confused.
  203. marc :D
  204. Ge0rG who? me?
  205. jonasw yeah
  206. marc Ge0rG, yes
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  208. jonasw Ge0rG, the current question is about whether marc shall copy the linked section from your XEP or rather cite it.
  209. marc Probably you should read the backlog once again :D
  210. jonasw I think citing is more appropriate
  211. jonasw this isn’t about markup anymore, even though I admit I thought that too at first.
  212. Ge0rG marc: I'm not opposed to you copying my text where it makes sense, but I think it would be better to write "An out-of-band presentation of the xmpp: URI according to XEP-0379 §3.3 [...] Example here: [...]"
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  214. jonasw I’d not go as far as "according to", but "like for example described in", because it’s not going to be normative
  215. jonasw (is it?)
  216. marc Well, I'll just copy it for now because I also changed some parts
  217. marc We can remove redundant parts later
  218. marc Okay?
  219. Ge0rG marc: if you change parts, please PR them against the original
  220. Ge0rG marc: nothing is worse than a slightly deviating copy.
  221. marc Ge0rG, well, we have to discuss my changes anyway
  222. marc Ge0rG, so let's do this before I PR something ;)
  223. jonasw I agree with Ge0rG
  224. Ge0rG marc: you can PR your new wording against 379 before copy&pasting from it.
  225. jonasw especially if the XEPs are going to interop ...
  226. Ge0rG marc: actually, what you just wrote made me change my mind. PLEASE DO NOT COPY&PASTE.
  227. Ge0rG Especially not COPY&PASTE&CHANGE.
  228. marc Ge0rG, :D
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  230. marc Ge0rG, I would recommend that you state something like "the landing page SHOULD contain the XMPP URI in the form of a QR code" in your XEP
  231. jonasw s/recommend/RECOMMEND/? :)
  232. marc :D
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  235. marc It is possible to reference to a specific section of a XEP?
  236. Ge0rG marc: if you open the link on your mobile device, how is a qr code going to help?
  237. marc Ge0rG, if _you_ open it on your mobile phone it doesn't help
  238. marc But if you open it on a desktop client it helps
  239. marc Or I open it because I generated it and my client doesn't generate QR codes for some reason
  240. marc desktop client -> desktop e-mail client or something like that
  241. Ge0rG marc: is there an xep that defines qr codes for xmpp?
  242. marc Ge0rG, just encode the XMPP URI
  243. marc works like a charm
  244. Ge0rG marc: not what I asked.
  245. marc Ge0rG, okay: no :P
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  247. Ge0rG marc: so you want me to create a precedent?
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  249. marc Ge0rG, I don't know if we need a XEP for it
  250. marc Ge0rG, you could also ask the other way around: how to use the invitation fpr your mobile device if the invitee opens the invitation on a desktop client and you only have a XMPP URI link
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  252. marc Ge0rG, we could also write a short XEP but I don't know if that's worth the effort
  253. Ge0rG marc: yes, a qr code is just the right thing there. The question is whether the developer of the landing page can make that leap without text in the xep
  254. Ge0rG marc: https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/issues/6
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  257. marc Ge0rG, nice, you should add this idea to the XEP now :D
  258. marc Ge0rG, It's good that we agree at least on some points :>
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  271. marc jonasw, Ge0rG do you think it is possible to make HTTPS mandatory for the landing page?
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  273. Ge0rG marc: yes, but does that need to be written in the XEP?
  274. jonasw it sure is possible, the question is whether it is reasonable :)
  275. marc Ge0rG, if I don't write it in the XEP it is not required for the implementation, is it? :D
  276. marc It's pretty easy nowdays to deploy HTTPS
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  286. marc Ge0rG, current XEP version: http://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xeps/user-invite.html
  287. marc Please don't comment on minor issues
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  289. SouL Ge0rG, weren't you the guy doing a XEP like this? Or is something else?
  290. Ge0rG marc: it's still missing the two different user stories.
  291. Ge0rG SouL: [xep 0379]
  292. Ge0rG Sigh. I'll never get the bots right.
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  294. Ge0rG marc: I would tend to reuse the `preauth` element
  295. marc Ge0rG, yep, I'm aware of the user stories
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  297. marc Ge0rG, yeah, we have to discuss the URI elements / URI format
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  300. marc Ge0rG, other comments or objections?
  301. Ge0rG marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?;preauth=TOKEN;ibr`
  302. Ge0rG marc: it's a pretty rough state, so I'm not sure what parts I should comment about
  303. marc Ge0rG, "?;" doesn't make sense
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  305. Ge0rG marc: it does, if you want to explicitly say it's an empty action.
  306. marc Ge0rG, structuring, for example
  307. marc Ge0rG, no, because you assume that there is an ordering for query elements but that's not the case IMO
  308. Ge0rG marc: if there is no ordering, what's the action?
  309. marc Ge0rG, an element without value which is _defined_ somewhere as action I would say
  310. Ge0rG marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?preauth=TOKEN;ibr` then
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  312. marc Ge0rG, for example, the "?register" action would make sense for the "account creation" use case
  313. Ge0rG marc: it would be great to have decision trees
  314. marc Ge0rG, a set of defined actions is good starting point for decision trees, isn't it? :)
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  316. Ge0rG marc: for account creation it will be something like `xmpp:invitee@server?register;preauth=TOKEN`
  317. marc Ge0rG, +1
  318. marc xmpp://server?register;preauth=TOKEN
  319. marc oh no
  320. Ge0rG marc: the decisions are, for the inviter: force the user to join my server, or let them just add me?
  321. Ge0rG marc: for the invitee: do I have an xmpp account already?
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  324. marc yes
  325. marc But it would also be nice the have decision trees for URIs in general to provide the same UX in all clients
  326. Ge0rG marc: this needs to be written down in the XEP, with according recommendations for client behavior
  327. marc yes
  328. marc Ge0rG, btw, I would add the possibility to disable mutual roster subscription for account creation
  329. marc I think it makes sense for the account creation use case
  330. Ge0rG marc: I think you are making this more and more complex
  331. Ge0rG marc: there are many ways to add a user already
  332. marc Ge0rG, add a user = account creation?
  333. marc Ge0rG, it doesn't become more complex for the clients
  334. Ge0rG marc: it becomes more complex for the user
  335. marc Ge0rG, that's an admin thing not end-user
  336. Ge0rG marc: but yeah, it makes sense to add a flag
  337. marc Ge0rG, so we don't have to care about "UX"
  338. jonasw I am worried by the quotes around "UX".
  339. Ge0rG marc: what about "AX"?
  340. marc Ge0rG, As an admin I like options :p
  341. Ge0rG 😁
  342. marc jonasw, because were're not talking about end-users here
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  345. Ge0rG Admins are users as well
  346. marc Yes that's why I said end-users
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