XSF Discussion - 2017-12-17

  1. marc

    Is there a XML command list for XEPs?

  2. jonasw

    marc, I don’t understand the question

  3. marc

    jonasw, commands like <strong>

  4. marc


  5. jonasw


  6. marc


  7. jonasw

    you can read xep.dtd

  8. jonasw

    (well, if you can read DTDs ;))

  9. marc

    Yeah, a bit

  10. jonasw

    but that’s the normative reference for things which currently work in XEPs, as everything gets validated against that IIRC

  11. marc

    I need a tag to make an indention like a list but without bullet points

  12. jonasw

    I don’t think we have that

  13. jonasw


  14. marc

    Argh :D

  15. marc

    Because it would look nice ;)

  16. jonasw

    what are you going to use it for?

  17. marc

    To "highlight" something

  18. marc

    Hard to describe ;)

  19. jonasw

    would be useful if you could be more specific

  20. jonasw

    there are example blocks for examples which may be useful

  21. marc

    Yeah, but it's an URI and not XML

  22. jonasw

    does that matter?

  23. jonasw

    I don’t think that examples necessarily have to be XML

  24. marc

    Yeah, but the example block is very big for just a single line :D

  25. jonasw

    maybe just a code block without example?

  26. jonasw

    like I used for the test vectors here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#algorithm-example-simple

  27. marc

    Hm, somehow it looks strange

  28. marc

    Doesn't matter for now :D

  29. marc

    jonasw, Can I just copy paste from other XEPs?

  30. jonasw

    what do you want to copy&paste?

  31. jonasw

    citing would be more appropriate in many cases (use &xep1234; for that)

  32. marc

    Puh, but this would make reading this XEP very stressful

  33. jonasw

    the issue would be to keep things up-to-date if wording in the referenced xep changes, so I’d discourage that.

  34. marc

    I would copy some parts from https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html#link_transmission for example

  35. jonasw

    that is a prime example where quoting would be more appropriate

  36. jonasw

    that is a prime example where citing would be more appropriate

  37. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I've heard that

  38. jonasw

    Ge0rG, what’dya hear?

  39. Ge0rG

    jonasw: you criticizing my XEP :P

  40. jonasw

    do I?

  41. jonasw

    am I?

  42. jonasw

    I can’t english today.

  43. Ge0rG

    I can't today.

  44. marc

    Ge0rG, what do you think? quoting or copying?

  45. Ge0rG

    marc: what do you want to present? the returned URL?

  46. marc

    Ge0rG, provide information about the landing page

  47. Ge0rG

    marc: <div class="example"> :P

  48. jonasw

    I think you are confused.

  49. marc


  50. Ge0rG

    who? me?

  51. jonasw


  52. marc

    Ge0rG, yes

  53. jonasw

    Ge0rG, the current question is about whether marc shall copy the linked section from your XEP or rather cite it.

  54. marc

    Probably you should read the backlog once again :D

  55. jonasw

    I think citing is more appropriate

  56. jonasw

    this isn’t about markup anymore, even though I admit I thought that too at first.

  57. Ge0rG

    marc: I'm not opposed to you copying my text where it makes sense, but I think it would be better to write "An out-of-band presentation of the xmpp: URI according to XEP-0379 §3.3 [...] Example here: [...]"

  58. jonasw

    I’d not go as far as "according to", but "like for example described in", because it’s not going to be normative

  59. jonasw

    (is it?)

  60. marc

    Well, I'll just copy it for now because I also changed some parts

  61. marc

    We can remove redundant parts later

  62. marc


  63. Ge0rG

    marc: if you change parts, please PR them against the original

  64. Ge0rG

    marc: nothing is worse than a slightly deviating copy.

  65. marc

    Ge0rG, well, we have to discuss my changes anyway

  66. marc

    Ge0rG, so let's do this before I PR something ;)

  67. jonasw

    I agree with Ge0rG

  68. Ge0rG

    marc: you can PR your new wording against 379 before copy&pasting from it.

  69. jonasw

    especially if the XEPs are going to interop ...

  70. Ge0rG

    marc: actually, what you just wrote made me change my mind. PLEASE DO NOT COPY&PASTE.

  71. Ge0rG

    Especially not COPY&PASTE&CHANGE.

  72. marc

    Ge0rG, :D

  73. marc

    Ge0rG, I would recommend that you state something like "the landing page SHOULD contain the XMPP URI in the form of a QR code" in your XEP

  74. jonasw

    s/recommend/RECOMMEND/? :)

  75. marc


  76. marc

    It is possible to reference to a specific section of a XEP?

  77. Ge0rG

    marc: if you open the link on your mobile device, how is a qr code going to help?

  78. marc

    Ge0rG, if _you_ open it on your mobile phone it doesn't help

  79. marc

    But if you open it on a desktop client it helps

  80. marc

    Or I open it because I generated it and my client doesn't generate QR codes for some reason

  81. marc

    desktop client -> desktop e-mail client or something like that

  82. Ge0rG

    marc: is there an xep that defines qr codes for xmpp?

  83. marc

    Ge0rG, just encode the XMPP URI

  84. marc

    works like a charm

  85. Ge0rG

    marc: not what I asked.

  86. marc

    Ge0rG, okay: no :P

  87. Ge0rG

    marc: so you want me to create a precedent?

  88. marc

    Ge0rG, I don't know if we need a XEP for it

  89. marc

    Ge0rG, you could also ask the other way around: how to use the invitation fpr your mobile device if the invitee opens the invitation on a desktop client and you only have a XMPP URI link

  90. marc

    Ge0rG, we could also write a short XEP but I don't know if that's worth the effort

  91. Ge0rG

    marc: yes, a qr code is just the right thing there. The question is whether the developer of the landing page can make that leap without text in the xep

  92. Ge0rG

    marc: https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/issues/6

  93. marc

    Ge0rG, nice, you should add this idea to the XEP now :D

  94. marc

    Ge0rG, It's good that we agree at least on some points :>

  95. marc

    jonasw, Ge0rG do you think it is possible to make HTTPS mandatory for the landing page?

  96. Ge0rG

    marc: yes, but does that need to be written in the XEP?

  97. jonasw

    it sure is possible, the question is whether it is reasonable :)

  98. marc

    Ge0rG, if I don't write it in the XEP it is not required for the implementation, is it? :D

  99. marc

    It's pretty easy nowdays to deploy HTTPS

  100. marc

    Ge0rG, current XEP version: http://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xeps/user-invite.html

  101. marc

    Please don't comment on minor issues

  102. SouL

    Ge0rG, weren't you the guy doing a XEP like this? Or is something else?

  103. Ge0rG

    marc: it's still missing the two different user stories.

  104. Ge0rG

    SouL: [xep 0379]

  105. Ge0rG

    Sigh. I'll never get the bots right.

  106. Ge0rG

    marc: I would tend to reuse the `preauth` element

  107. marc

    Ge0rG, yep, I'm aware of the user stories

  108. marc

    Ge0rG, yeah, we have to discuss the URI elements / URI format

  109. marc

    Ge0rG, other comments or objections?

  110. Ge0rG

    marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?;preauth=TOKEN;ibr`

  111. Ge0rG

    marc: it's a pretty rough state, so I'm not sure what parts I should comment about

  112. marc

    Ge0rG, "?;" doesn't make sense

  113. Ge0rG

    marc: it does, if you want to explicitly say it's an empty action.

  114. marc

    Ge0rG, structuring, for example

  115. marc

    Ge0rG, no, because you assume that there is an ordering for query elements but that's not the case IMO

  116. Ge0rG

    marc: if there is no ordering, what's the action?

  117. marc

    Ge0rG, an element without value which is _defined_ somewhere as action I would say

  118. Ge0rG

    marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?preauth=TOKEN;ibr` then

  119. marc

    Ge0rG, for example, the "?register" action would make sense for the "account creation" use case

  120. Ge0rG

    marc: it would be great to have decision trees

  121. marc

    Ge0rG, a set of defined actions is good starting point for decision trees, isn't it? :)

  122. Ge0rG

    marc: for account creation it will be something like `xmpp:invitee@server?register;preauth=TOKEN`

  123. marc

    Ge0rG, +1

  124. marc


  125. marc

    oh no

  126. Ge0rG

    marc: the decisions are, for the inviter: force the user to join my server, or let them just add me?

  127. Ge0rG

    marc: for the invitee: do I have an xmpp account already?

  128. marc


  129. marc

    But it would also be nice the have decision trees for URIs in general to provide the same UX in all clients

  130. Ge0rG

    marc: this needs to be written down in the XEP, with according recommendations for client behavior

  131. marc


  132. marc

    Ge0rG, btw, I would add the possibility to disable mutual roster subscription for account creation

  133. marc

    I think it makes sense for the account creation use case

  134. Ge0rG

    marc: I think you are making this more and more complex

  135. Ge0rG

    marc: there are many ways to add a user already

  136. marc

    Ge0rG, add a user = account creation?

  137. marc

    Ge0rG, it doesn't become more complex for the clients

  138. Ge0rG

    marc: it becomes more complex for the user

  139. marc

    Ge0rG, that's an admin thing not end-user

  140. Ge0rG

    marc: but yeah, it makes sense to add a flag

  141. marc

    Ge0rG, so we don't have to care about "UX"

  142. jonasw

    I am worried by the quotes around "UX".

  143. Ge0rG

    marc: what about "AX"?

  144. marc

    Ge0rG, As an admin I like options :p

  145. Ge0rG


  146. marc

    jonasw, because were're not talking about end-users here

  147. Ge0rG

    Admins are users as well

  148. marc

    Yes that's why I said end-users