XSF Discussion - 2017-12-17

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10:45:28 marc Is there a XML command list for XEPs?
10:46:02 jonasw marc, I don’t understand the question
10:46:21 marc jonasw, commands like <strong>
10:46:24 marc "commands"
10:46:25 jonasw ah
10:46:26 marc tags
10:46:28 jonasw you can read xep.dtd
10:47:03 jonasw (well, if you can read DTDs ;))
10:47:11 marc Yeah, a bit
10:47:21 jonasw but that’s the normative reference for things which currently work in XEPs, as everything gets validated against that IIRC
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10:48:53 marc I need a tag to make an indention like a list but without bullet points
10:49:00 jonasw I don’t think we have that
10:49:04 jonasw why?
10:49:06 marc Argh :D
10:49:17 marc Because it would look nice ;)
10:49:22 jonasw what are you going to use it for?
10:50:02 marc To "highlight" something
10:50:07 marc Hard to describe ;)
10:50:17 jonasw would be useful if you could be more specific
10:50:22 jonasw there are example blocks for examples which may be useful
10:50:36 marc Yeah, but it's an URI and not XML
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10:50:44 jonasw does that matter?
10:50:53 jonasw I don’t think that examples necessarily have to be XML
10:51:09 marc Yeah, but the example block is very big for just a single line :D
10:51:20 jonasw maybe just a code block without example?
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10:51:37 jonasw like I used for the test vectors here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#algorithm-example-simple
10:53:25 marc Hm, somehow it looks strange
10:53:28 marc Doesn't matter for now :D
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10:54:03 marc jonasw, Can I just copy paste from other XEPs?
10:54:18 jonasw what do you want to copy&paste?
10:54:30 jonasw citing would be more appropriate in many cases (use &xep1234; for that)
10:55:18 marc Puh, but this would make reading this XEP very stressful
10:55:48 jonasw the issue would be to keep things up-to-date if wording in the referenced xep changes, so I’d discourage that.
10:55:49 marc I would copy some parts from https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html#link_transmission for example
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10:58:54 jonasw that is a prime example where quoting would be more appropriate
10:59:05 jonasw that is a prime example where citing would be more appropriate
10:59:57 Ge0rG jonasw: I've heard that
11:00:12 jonasw Ge0rG, what’dya hear?
11:02:36 Ge0rG jonasw: you criticizing my XEP :P
11:02:40 jonasw do I?
11:02:46 jonasw am I?
11:02:50 jonasw I can’t english today.
11:03:25 Ge0rG I can't today.
11:03:48 marc Ge0rG, what do you think? quoting or copying?
11:04:40 Ge0rG marc: what do you want to present? the returned URL?
11:05:26 marc Ge0rG, provide information about the landing page
11:06:10 Ge0rG marc: <div class="example"> :P
11:06:33 jonasw I think you are confused.
11:06:41 marc :D
11:06:42 Ge0rG who? me?
11:06:44 jonasw yeah
11:06:45 marc Ge0rG, yes
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11:07:00 jonasw Ge0rG, the current question is about whether marc shall copy the linked section from your XEP or rather cite it.
11:07:01 marc Probably you should read the backlog once again :D
11:07:06 jonasw I think citing is more appropriate
11:07:17 jonasw this isn’t about markup anymore, even though I admit I thought that too at first.
11:08:36 Ge0rG marc: I'm not opposed to you copying my text where it makes sense, but I think it would be better to write "An out-of-band presentation of the xmpp: URI according to XEP-0379 §3.3 [...] Example here: [...]"
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11:09:13 jonasw I’d not go as far as "according to", but "like for example described in", because it’s not going to be normative
11:09:15 jonasw (is it?)
11:09:45 marc Well, I'll just copy it for now because I also changed some parts
11:10:17 marc We can remove redundant parts later
11:10:19 marc Okay?
11:10:20 Ge0rG marc: if you change parts, please PR them against the original
11:10:33 Ge0rG marc: nothing is worse than a slightly deviating copy.
11:10:50 marc Ge0rG, well, we have to discuss my changes anyway
11:11:02 marc Ge0rG, so let's do this before I PR something ;)
11:11:09 jonasw I agree with Ge0rG
11:11:18 Ge0rG marc: you can PR your new wording against 379 before copy&pasting from it.
11:11:22 jonasw especially if the XEPs are going to interop ...
11:11:34 Ge0rG marc: actually, what you just wrote made me change my mind. PLEASE DO NOT COPY&PASTE.
11:11:43 Ge0rG Especially not COPY&PASTE&CHANGE.
11:11:49 marc Ge0rG, :D
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11:12:49 marc Ge0rG, I would recommend that you state something like "the landing page SHOULD contain the XMPP URI in the form of a QR code" in your XEP
11:13:52 jonasw s/recommend/RECOMMEND/? :)
11:14:10 marc :D
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11:16:12 marc It is possible to reference to a specific section of a XEP?
11:17:27 Ge0rG marc: if you open the link on your mobile device, how is a qr code going to help?
11:18:10 marc Ge0rG, if _you_ open it on your mobile phone it doesn't help
11:18:48 marc But if you open it on a desktop client it helps
11:19:09 marc Or I open it because I generated it and my client doesn't generate QR codes for some reason
11:19:46 marc desktop client -> desktop e-mail client or something like that
11:20:10 Ge0rG marc: is there an xep that defines qr codes for xmpp?
11:20:22 marc Ge0rG, just encode the XMPP URI
11:20:26 marc works like a charm
11:20:47 Ge0rG marc: not what I asked.
11:20:58 marc Ge0rG, okay: no :P
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11:21:14 Ge0rG marc: so you want me to create a precedent?
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11:22:27 marc Ge0rG, I don't know if we need a XEP for it
11:23:01 marc Ge0rG, you could also ask the other way around: how to use the invitation fpr your mobile device if the invitee opens the invitation on a desktop client and you only have a XMPP URI link
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11:24:10 marc Ge0rG, we could also write a short XEP but I don't know if that's worth the effort
11:24:16 Ge0rG marc: yes, a qr code is just the right thing there. The question is whether the developer of the landing page can make that leap without text in the xep
11:24:56 Ge0rG marc: https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/issues/6
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11:25:47 marc Ge0rG, nice, you should add this idea to the XEP now :D
11:27:06 marc Ge0rG, It's good that we agree at least on some points :>
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11:47:14 marc jonasw, Ge0rG do you think it is possible to make HTTPS mandatory for the landing page?
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11:47:47 Ge0rG marc: yes, but does that need to be written in the XEP?
11:47:49 jonasw it sure is possible, the question is whether it is reasonable :)
11:48:41 marc Ge0rG, if I don't write it in the XEP it is not required for the implementation, is it? :D
11:49:19 marc It's pretty easy nowdays to deploy HTTPS
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12:06:12 marc Ge0rG, current XEP version: http://projects.zapb.de/tmp/xeps/user-invite.html
12:06:23 marc Please don't comment on minor issues
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12:10:03 SouL Ge0rG, weren't you the guy doing a XEP like this? Or is something else?
12:10:32 Ge0rG marc: it's still missing the two different user stories.
12:10:50 Ge0rG SouL: [xep 0379]
12:11:11 Ge0rG Sigh. I'll never get the bots right.
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12:13:45 Ge0rG marc: I would tend to reuse the `preauth` element
12:16:44 marc Ge0rG, yep, I'm aware of the user stories
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12:17:11 marc Ge0rG, yeah, we have to discuss the URI elements / URI format
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12:18:34 marc Ge0rG, other comments or objections?
12:18:35 Ge0rG marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?;preauth=TOKEN;ibr`
12:19:09 Ge0rG marc: it's a pretty rough state, so I'm not sure what parts I should comment about
12:19:12 marc Ge0rG, "?;" doesn't make sense
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12:19:43 Ge0rG marc: it does, if you want to explicitly say it's an empty action.
12:19:48 marc Ge0rG, structuring, for example
12:20:08 marc Ge0rG, no, because you assume that there is an ordering for query elements but that's not the case IMO
12:20:42 Ge0rG marc: if there is no ordering, what's the action?
12:21:23 marc Ge0rG, an element without value which is _defined_ somewhere as action I would say
12:22:02 Ge0rG marc: `xmpp:inviter@server?preauth=TOKEN;ibr` then
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12:22:46 marc Ge0rG, for example, the "?register" action would make sense for the "account creation" use case
12:22:57 Ge0rG marc: it would be great to have decision trees
12:23:57 marc Ge0rG, a set of defined actions is good starting point for decision trees, isn't it? :)
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12:24:04 Ge0rG marc: for account creation it will be something like `xmpp:invitee@server?register;preauth=TOKEN`
12:24:13 marc Ge0rG, +1
12:24:39 marc xmpp://server?register;preauth=TOKEN
12:24:49 marc oh no
12:25:08 Ge0rG marc: the decisions are, for the inviter: force the user to join my server, or let them just add me?
12:25:26 Ge0rG marc: for the invitee: do I have an xmpp account already?
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12:25:52 marc yes
12:26:54 marc But it would also be nice the have decision trees for URIs in general to provide the same UX in all clients
12:26:58 Ge0rG marc: this needs to be written down in the XEP, with according recommendations for client behavior
12:29:08 marc yes
12:29:34 marc Ge0rG, btw, I would add the possibility to disable mutual roster subscription for account creation
12:29:48 marc I think it makes sense for the account creation use case
12:30:25 Ge0rG marc: I think you are making this more and more complex
12:30:41 Ge0rG marc: there are many ways to add a user already
12:31:05 marc Ge0rG, add a user = account creation?
12:31:52 marc Ge0rG, it doesn't become more complex for the clients
12:32:06 Ge0rG marc: it becomes more complex for the user
12:32:17 marc Ge0rG, that's an admin thing not end-user
12:32:28 Ge0rG marc: but yeah, it makes sense to add a flag
12:32:28 marc Ge0rG, so we don't have to care about "UX"
12:34:06 jonasw I am worried by the quotes around "UX".
12:34:12 Ge0rG marc: what about "AX"?
12:34:42 marc Ge0rG, As an admin I like options :p
12:34:45 Ge0rG 😁
12:36:00 marc jonasw, because were're not talking about end-users here
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12:37:03 Ge0rG Admins are users as well
12:37:22 marc Yes that's why I said end-users
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