XSF Discussion - 2017-12-19

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  132. daniel jonasw, could you hit the the merge button on my protoxep when you have a minute so it makes the 24h notice window for the council agenda tomorrow?
  133. jonasw sure!
  134. jonasw didn’t see the mail, sorry
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  136. daniel jonasw: thank you
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  142. jonasw daniel, mail sent :-)
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  308. pep. What's the difference between {xep 0363} and {xep 0370}? Both can do more or less the same thing, right? 0370 doesn't require a server component but it would be feasible as well I think
  309. Bunneh pep.: Multiple matches: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html Ad-Hoc Commands https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0050.html Dialback Key Generation and Validation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0185.html Out of Band Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html Blocking Command https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0191.html Atomically Compare-And-Publish PubSub Items https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0395.html Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport Method https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0261.html A Transport for Initiating and Negotiating Sessions (TINS) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0111.html In-Band Real Time Text https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html Spim Markers and Reports https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0287.html Out-of-Band Stream Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/outofband.html File Repository and Sharing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0214.html Jingle In-Band Bytestreams Transport https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-ibb.html Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sift.html Mandatory-to-Implement Technologies for Jingle RTP Sessions https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/jingle-rtp-mti.html Spim Markers and Reports https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/spim.html Field Standardization for Data Forms https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html The /me Command https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0245.html Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology (SIFT) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0273.html In-Band Bytestreams https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0047.html XMPP Date and Time Profiles https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0082.html In-Band Registration https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html Unique and Stable Stanza IDs https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html Best Practices for Handling Offline Messages https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0160.html Extensible In-Band Registration https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html Incident Handling https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html Impact of TLS and DNSSEC on Dialback https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0344.html Form Discovery and Publishing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0346.html Zero Handshake Server to Server Protocol https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0361.html Out-of-Band Stream Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0265.html Invisible Command https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html Best Practices for Roster and Subscription Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0162.html Atomically Compare-And-Publish PubSub Items https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/cap.html
  310. pep. Wat
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  312. Zash Nice
  313. Zash Maybe it did a search for "0363} and {xep 0370" and thought you really wanted all XEPs with the word "and" anywhere in them
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  315. Zash Two {} commands at the same time don't work anyways
  316. pep. :(
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  318. pep. -xep 0363
  319. Bunneh pep.: HTTP File Upload (Standards Track, Proposed, 2017-12-03) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
  320. pep. -xep 0370
  321. Bunneh pep.: Jingle HTTP Transport Method (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0370.html
  322. Zash pep.: compare {xep 65} and ...
  323. Bunneh pep.: SOCKS5 Bytestreams (Standards Track, Draft, 2015-09-17) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0065.html
  324. Zash -xep 260
  325. Bunneh Zash: Jingle SOCKS5 Bytestreams Transport Method (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-05-17) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0260.html
  326. pep. Heh
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  328. Zash Holy carp, do we have a bazillion XEPs mentioning "jingle"
  329. pep. Is there any implementation of 0370?
  330. zinid we need no carpy jingle
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  347. marc Ge0rG, what is the input field on your easy-xmpp-invitation website for?
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  410. edhelas I think that we have to start to work on spam issues seriously
  411. jabberatdemo has joined
  412. edhelas we have to see how people are spamming XMPP today on a wider scale than just blocking a type of message
  413. Link Mauve Oh, is it a new wave?
  414. edhelas Link Mauve it basically never stopped
  415. edhelas lena2521@jabber.uznam.net.pl
  416. Alex ya, SPAM is getting horrible, in the mood of shutting down my XMPP clients :(
  417. Link Mauve Might be our anti-spam solution working great then. ^^
  418. edhelas madaline2784@i0i0.de
  419. edhelas for now
  420. Link Mauve edhelas, it brings nothing to ban individual JIDs to the network.
  421. edhelas it's super easy to create a new host on your XMPP serve, put a let's encrypt certificate on it and start spamming the others
  422. edhelas yes I know
  423. Link Mauve Alex, if you’re running Prosody, https://yaxim.org/blog/2017/12/12/spam-reduction-on-yax-dot-im/
  424. edhelas what I'd like to do is have a look at all those domains, see if they are pointing to same IPs
  425. edhelas and basically figure out from where those SPAMs are coming
  426. edhelas but we seriously have to take the problem
  427. Link Mauve edhelas, pretty sure most spammers are currently relying on insecure public infrastructure rather than using their own servers.
  428. Link Mauve edhelas, just read that blog article, that’s how we’ve been handling it at JabberFR for the past year or so.
  429. edhelas that's not exactly true
  430. edhelas I have more spam comming from new domains than known ones
  431. MattJ edhelas, can you share some example domains?
  432. edhelas well I just did
  433. MattJ There are multiple spammers, they use different techniques, and not everyone will have their JID on every spammer's list
  434. edhelas I can give you a longer list, give me a bit of time
  435. Link Mauve edhelas, blocking by domain is almost never a solution.
  436. MattJ So while Link Mauve and I receive spam from existing domains, maybe you experience it more from a spammer who uses new domains
  437. edhelas MattJ that's what i'm saying, we have different kind of spams, we have to differentiate them and see how we can block them
  438. Link Mauve I should log all of the spams I’m blocking, to get better statistics.
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  440. edhelas well hopefully I have MAM and Movim cache for that
  441. edhelas also, again, for now we have simple SPAM messages
  442. Link Mauve Ge0rG, I’m interested in your statistics module btw.
  443. edhelas I start to have roster subscriptions request from spammers
  444. edhelas and the next kind will be Pubsub publications I think
  445. edhelas so I'm already talking with ejabberd dev to put quotas and limitations on Pubsub
  446. Link Mauve Wouldn’t reach nearly as many people as plain messages.
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  449. daniel > and the next kind will be Pubsub publications I think lol that's unnecessarily complex. normal messages will reach people just fine
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  451. edhelas I'm deleting one or two accounts of users that are publishing articles with links to weird urls and warez places :)
  452. edhelas but yes this is pretty long term
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  454. daniel also; while i'm not denying that spam is a problem it is not really for the average user; normal users don't publish their jid everywhere. the lists the spammers are using are (in parts) very old. while *we* see a lot of spam normal users don't
  455. edhelas yes
  456. daniel yes it creates load and servers and requires work from sys admins; but we shouldn't necessarily let this distract us from other problems
  457. daniel especially since normal users - and even we - are not the target audience of the spam
  458. daniel we don't speak russian and we don't usually buy stolen credit cards
  459. daniel ok; some of us speak russian…
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  461. edhelas ok I've compiled a list of JID that are sending messages to Movim users without been in their roster
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  467. edhelas some statistics per server :)
  468. edhelas https://movim.eu:5280/upload/9d94237298995552fa13436420195fbca436dce7/zGvBJ61KKHv40YHUDv4obvA5SKUlfxBgfzCH3V3e/spam_servers.txt
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  474. Ge0rG marc: it's not an input field, it's a text selection field where you can copy the xmpp: URI from
  475. marc Ge0rG, https://projects.zapb.de/tmp/easy-xmpp-invitation/
  476. marc I can edit the xmpp URI
  477. Ge0rG Link Mauve: thank you for sharing a private link, btw.
  478. ralphm has joined
  479. Link Mauve Oh, I saw it in public somewhere today, sorry. :x
  480. Ge0rG Link Mauve: it isn't published yet, and I'm in the middle of refactoring it into a technical post on my personal blog and a high-level post on yaxim.org
  481. jubalh has joined
  482. Ge0rG which technically means I've stopped working on it for now ;)
  483. Link Mauve I didn’t see any mention that it was a draft or anything either.
  484. Ge0rG Link Mauve: I'm sure I wrote it's a draft where I posted it.
  485. Link Mauve Damn…
  486. Link Mauve Sorry. :x
  487. Link Mauve You can still yank it out probably.
  488. Ge0rG Link Mauve: I'm sure nobody will notice
  489. Ge0rG let's hope it won't get picked up. yet.
  490. Ge0rG Link Mauve: but now you made me curious, you are not a member of the places I posted it in. :P
  491. Link Mauve I’m already looking for the place I got it from. ^^
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  493. Ge0rG Sigh. advert364@yax.im - 1600 outgoing subscription requests.
  494. Ge0rG MattJ: can we have presence blocking in mod_firewall please?
  495. MattJ "presence blocking"?
  496. MattJ KIND: presence DROP.
  497. MattJ Presence. Blocked.
  498. MattJ XMP
  499. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm sure users will love this.
  500. MattJ They'll love the simplicity, which is good for UX
  501. Ge0rG MattJ: I want to block/revert presence subscriptions from accounts that are spamming.
  502. MattJ Incoming or outgoing?
  503. Ge0rG MattJ: both
  504. Ge0rG I've deleted some 2000 spammer accounts in the last weeks
  505. Ge0rG Link Mauve: the stats for that blog non-post I gathered by grepping prosody.log for JIDs captured by mod_firewall spammer.pfw
  506. MattJ I don't think a server should allow a new account to *have* 1600 open subscription requests
  507. Ge0rG MattJ: that's a great idea.
  508. Link Mauve Oh.
  509. Ge0rG Link Mauve: not sure if this will help you much. `zgrep -ho 'spam:.*message.*' /var/log/prosody/prosody.log*|grep -ho "from='[a-z0-9._-]*@[^']*'" > 2017-12-13-alljids.txt`
  510. Ge0rG MattJ: the other spam accounts I deleted have between 10 and 200 pending subscriptions. Which is still too much.
  511. edhelas Ge0rG you have IBR ?
  512. Ge0rG MattJ: but the worst thing is that I'm getting a dozen a subscriptions a day.
  513. Ge0rG edhelas: yes
  514. edhelas well then you know where they are coming from
  515. Link Mauve Ge0rG, it’s super weird, I can’t find any mention of this blog post in my logs before I posted it. oO
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  517. edhelas on my side I'm starting to blacklist list of domains for s2s
  518. Ge0rG edhelas: from Tor and open proxies
  519. pep. wut, is that url private? it seems awfully public to me and I've seen it around already
  520. Zash Ge0rG: Maybe it would be clearer to say you wanna retract presence subscription requests from mod_firewall
  521. Ge0rG Zash: yes, that's exactly what I want. I'm sure I asked for that already one or two times
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  523. Ge0rG pep.: I can't imagine how it made the rounds, or where
  524. pep. the spam reduction article right?
  525. Zash I thought I saw you ask for "blocking"
  526. pep. I'm confused
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  528. Ge0rG Zash: to block them I need to know they are spammers before they send their spam
  529. Link Mauve Maybe it would be simpler by writing another module, that would hook into the event fired by mod_firewall on someone being flagged as a spammer, and then proceed to remove its presence subscription.
  530. Link Mauve pep., do you remember where you saw it?
  531. Link Mauve Because grep doesn’t help. :/
  532. Ge0rG Zash: ideally it should delay incoming subscriptions for a minute and just discard them if the user sends incoming spam
  533. Link Mauve Ge0rG, one second would be enough currently.
  534. Ge0rG So kind of like a bastard of mod_smacks and mod_csi_pump
  535. Zash Hm, that sounds a bit tricky for mod_firewall?
  536. Zash Or? What sayeth MattJ?
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  539. MattJ Some kind of tarpit has always been on my mind for mod_firewall, but it is indeed tricky
  540. Ge0rG I'm okay with a separate module if it helps tame subscription spam
  541. pep. Ah, hmm, no I've never read it. Dec 12th 2017
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  543. Link Mauve Ge0rG, could you have used an URL shortener?
  544. edhelas is it risky to publish publicly my list of blacklisted s2s servers ?
  545. Ge0rG edhelas: I don't think so
  546. edhelas I'd like to be transparent regarding my configuration
  547. Link Mauve edhelas, it’s a good thing, it will allow them to start the process to get un-blacklisted.
  548. pep. edhelas, might also be nice to send a message to the contact address of that server when you blacklist it
  549. Link Mauve Indeed.
  550. edhelas meh
  551. pep. why?
  552. pep. Of course you can automate that
  553. edhelas step by step :)
  554. edhelas first publish the list
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  557. Ge0rG MattJ: currently I'm actively monitoring prosody.log for outgoing spam, listing all accounts registered from the same ip as the perpetrator, checking whether any of them have proper roster subscriptions and deleting all that look like spammers.
  558. jjrh has left
  559. Ge0rG I've automated most of the steps so it boils down to copying a JID and a list of user:delete commands, but the monitoring itself is tedious and in theory easy to automate
  560. MattJ To automate that, I'd fire an event from the firewall "reject spam" chain, and just handle the rest in a module
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  562. MattJ At least log the IP to a separate file
  563. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, it would help to have a quarantine flag on accounts that could be set this way
  564. MattJ Hmm
  565. Ge0rG I've pulled a number for that one recently
  566. Ge0rG MattJ: but none of this solves the incoming subscriptions problem
  567. Ge0rG It merely reduces the outgoing subscriptions problem, slightly
  568. Ge0rG As I said, I've deleted around 2k accounts so far.
  569. MattJ Automatically rejecting a pending incoming subscription should be pretty straightforward to add as an action
  570. Ge0rG And one real user, by accident. Which is why I want a quarantine flag that's less terminal than a deletion
  571. MattJ Any "hold the stanza for X seconds/minutes" is full of performance and correctness problems
  572. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, I know. But holding a stanza long enough to check the next stanza from the same JID might actually work without melting the server
  573. MattJ We had a lot of discussion about this when you first had the idea
  574. MattJ Nice idea, but the spammer only has to wait N+1 seconds
  575. MattJ and they have plenty of time on their hands
  576. Ge0rG MattJ: maybe they do, maybe not.
  577. MattJ Whatever you choose for N, they can wait longer, and as you increase N you're going to effectively open yourself up to DoS attacks
  578. debacle has left
  579. Ge0rG Greylisting has turned out to work exceptionally well for email
  580. Ge0rG MattJ: besides, even if they wait, they won't get past the spam filter, so they have no incentive to modify their code
  581. MattJ What's their incentive for sending the subscription request in the first place?
  582. MattJ btw, I don't see anything about your account quarantine flag: https://prosody.im/issues/?q=state%3Dopen+firewall
  583. Ge0rG MattJ: I suppose it's too trick dumb clients / servers to accept the following message
  584. Ge0rG MattJ: https://prosody.im/issues/1057
  585. Ge0rG MattJ: my firewall blocks all spam messages anyway, so they won't gain anything by waiting longer
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  588. Ge0rG MattJ: please feel free to suggest a different method to mitigate the incoming subscriptions.
  589. MattJ I think we ultimately ended up at UI changes on the clients when we last discussed this
  590. MattJ That is, a subscription request should not be "noisy"
  591. Ge0rG MattJ: I would accept a subscription denial from the firewall as a first step.
  592. MattJ Yes, that can be done
  593. Ge0rG MattJ: except that we haven't implemented anything after the discussion, and are repeating it now.
  594. MattJ I'll get you your account flagging thing, which will at least help to improve your current process
  595. MattJ and then I'll get you automated rejection/retraction of subscription requests
  596. Ge0rG MattJ: thanks, that's awesome!
  597. MattJ The tarpit thing may happen one day, or it may never happen
  598. MattJ It's a nice idea with too many practical issues
  599. Ge0rG MattJ: what about making the flagging depend on the number of roster items the user has? I.e. when pending >(to+both)
  600. MattJ Simply because you have to queue every stanza for the same destination JID following a match, and they can send to an unbounded number of destination JIDs
  601. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm sure we can also stop incoming mass subscriptions from the same JID
  602. Ge0rG Just not from the same server...
  603. MattJ Ge0rG, they'll just add bot accounts to bot accounts rosters
  604. Ge0rG MattJ: maybe
  605. Ge0rG MattJ: but yes, das things first please.
  606. Ge0rG is leaving for the night now. CU
  607. MattJ Good night
  608. Ge0rG s/das/easy/ it's too late for auto completion
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