XSF Discussion - 2018-01-04

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  185. ralphm Hi all
  186. MattJ Hey
  187. ralphm bangs gavel
  188. Ge0rG What? End of Meeting?
  189. ralphm 0. Welcome and agenda
  190. ralphm Who do we have?
  191. MattJ I'm here
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  194. MattJ Guus and Martin both said they couldn't make it today
  195. ralphm right
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  198. ralphm and no nyco?
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  201. ralphm Ok, so no quorum. Let's try next week and follow up on list.
  202. ralphm bangs gavel
  203. MattJ wfm
  204. Ge0rG ralphm: don't forget to change the topic for our multi-year ongoing Board meeting
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  208. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  209. ralphm There
  210. Ge0rG Phew!
  211. Ge0rG thanks very much.
  212. Ge0rG BTW, whom should I approach about the administration of jabber.org and xmpp.org the Jabber servers?
  213. jonasw stpeter maybe?
  214. jonasw xmpp.org is iteam
  215. jonasw xmpp.org isn’t a public server in any way though
  216. jonasw AFAIK
  217. Kev Iteam for xmpp.org. Peter for jabber.org. Although you can always approach me and see if I can help.
  218. Ge0rG Maybe I should just make it (more) public now.
  219. jonasw your manifesto?
  220. Ge0rG Kev: I'm working on a Public Servers Anti-Spam manifesto - https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e - I'd like to get some feedback from large public servers' admins to create a consensus that can be signed off
  221. mathieui if only the third item was possible
  222. Ge0rG mathieui: monitoring registrations from TOR?
  223. mathieui yes
  224. Ge0rG mathieui: it is possible, at least on prosody
  225. Kev I think it's millions of users, FWIW, although not all active.
  226. Kev jabber.org has millions of registered users on its own.
  227. mathieui well, if "monitoring" consists of adding one log line to the prosody debug file, then sure, it’s possible
  228. mathieui but also useless
  229. Ge0rG mathieui: you can have a script grep your log
  230. moparisthebest And do what
  231. moparisthebest Xmpp over tor is perfectly legitimate
  232. jonasw moparisthebest, treat the accounts with more scrunity until it’s clear they’re not abusers?
  233. jonasw limit resource usage etc.
  234. mathieui moparisthebest, it’s perfectly legitimate but mass account creation is not
  235. jonasw protecting public servers against tor-helped abuse is also perfectly legitimate :)
  236. moparisthebest jonasw: sounds hard for a script but sounds ok
  237. mathieui also from my homemade statistics we’ve got around 1000 registrations for one legitimate user from those ips
  238. Ge0rG > protecting public servers against tor-helped abuse is also perfectly legitimate :) We really need to differentiate here. There _are_ legitimate use cases for Tor
  239. jonasw Ge0rG, that’s why I’m saying "tor-helped abuse" and not "tor itself"
  240. mathieui yeah, it’s not about banning Tor at all (hell, I run a relay myself)
  241. moparisthebest So will there be a public list of servers that should be blocked or will that be up to individual servers to determine
  242. jonasw I suggested to run a public DNS block list
  243. jonasw but Ge0rG was against the name I proposed :)
  244. moparisthebest That would be ideal, but then someone has to manage it
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  246. jonasw I wanted to try that
  247. moparisthebest The reason it's ideal is because large servers have enough info to determine bad domains, small servers do not
  248. jonasw yes
  249. moparisthebest And I'm biased, I'm the only one on my server to get spam :)
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  252. Ge0rG jonasw: I was not opposed to you actually running it, but you might give it a better name, like xmpp-rbl
  253. jonasw I know
  254. jonasw RBL doesn’t seem to be a reasonable name though
  255. jonasw because it won’t be real-time or blackhole, will it?
  256. Kev Is there any reason for it to be DNS-based for XMPP?
  257. jonasw Kev, exploiting existing cache infrastructures and speed?
  258. Kev But you're talking about running your own, aren't you?
  259. jonasw what does that have to do with anything?
  260. jonasw with existing cache infrastructtures, I mean global and local resolvers
  261. Kev "Exploiting existing infrastructure" and "bringing your own new infrastructure" don't seem compatible.
  262. jonasw DNS is also easily replicated
  263. Kev Anyway, I don't have a particular reason it needs to not be DNS.
  264. Ge0rG jabber.org doesn't have offline storage :(
  265. Kev It doesn't?
  266. Ge0rG Nope.
  267. Kev I don't remember that being disabled.
  268. Ge0rG At least I get `503 - cancel: Service unavailable` when messaging stpeter
  269. Kev I just tested on myself, and it worked.
  270. Ge0rG I never was able to message stpeter when he wasn't online.
  271. jonasw subscribed?
  272. Ge0rG yep
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  278. SamWhited syn?
  279. Ge0rG syn ack
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  281. SamWhited syn?
  282. SamWhited wow, took a,long time to send but apparently I can connect for free on Delta flights' terrible wifi.
  283. Ge0rG SamWhited: your `syn?` was delivered twice.
  284. mathieui yeah
  285. mathieui I have that from time to time with conversations
  286. SamWhited odd
  287. Holger SM resume fails so Conversations resends to fail on the safe side?
  288. SamWhited They claim to only allow Whatsapp, Facebook, and sonething else for free but I can use my server and jmp.chat's SI. server, this is rather nice.
  289. SamWhited SIP, even.
  290. Ge0rG Holger: shouldn't it wait for the MUC sync to complete before re-sending?
  291. Ge0rG SamWhited: maybe they are only blocking HTTP(S) ;)
  292. Holger (SM resume fails and the server doesn't include the 'h' attribute with the <failed/> response, that is ...)
  293. jonasw Ge0rG, this muc is anonymous, isn’t it?
  294. jonasw so there’s no point in syncing
  295. Holger Ge0rG: How would that help?
  296. Ge0rG jonasw: right, all bets are off.
  297. jonasw Holger, if you received the history in a non-anon muc you could be sure whether your message got delivered :)
  298. Ge0rG personally, I just ignore impersonation attacks and sync away.
  299. Holger jonasw: Hm with some proper ID (origin-id?) I guess so, yes.
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  441. marc Ge0rG, how did our discussion of user invitation URI end? Do we need the "ibr" query parameter?
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  446. Ge0rG marc: yes
  447. marc Ge0rG, in what case?
  448. marc I remeber I agreed that we don't need an action parameter :)
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  450. Ge0rG marc: the ibr parameter indicates that the preauth token can be used in an IBR request to the server
  451. marc Ge0rG, but the authority part of the URI already indicates it
  452. Ge0rG marc: wait, we are talking of account invitation?
  453. Ge0rG marc: we need a good glossary
  454. marc Ge0rG, no, "account creation" uses the "register" action query :)
  455. Ge0rG marc: so how does the contact invitation indicate ibr?
  456. marc Ge0rG, xmpp://example.com/inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN
  457. marc xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN for client-side PARS
  458. moparisthebest did you mean https for the first one marc ?
  459. Ge0rG marc: so which one of those?
  460. marc Okay, wait
  461. marc Account creation: xmpp://newuser@example.com/inviter@example.com?register;preauth=TOKEN User invitation: xmpp://example.com/inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN Client-side PARS: xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN
  462. marc moparisthebest, no
  463. Ge0rG xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN;ibr is a perfect match for both second and third use case
  464. marc Ge0rG, no
  465. Ge0rG And the account invitation doesn't need the inviter URL
  466. marc The authority part can indicate the domain to create an account
  467. moparisthebest not really sure the need for all the different urls but I'll just shut up until I see xep :P
  468. marc moparisthebest, no, just ask
  469. moparisthebest well what do each of those do?
  470. Ge0rG marc: you are making it too complicated
  471. moparisthebest and why are there more than one format if all have to be handled by xmpp client?
  472. marc moparisthebest, 1: create an account, 2: invite a user and give the choice to register on the server 3: PARS
  473. Ge0rG marc: stop adding edge cases. If the inviter and invitee domains differ, this is not our use case any more
  474. moparisthebest hmm how is 1 different than 2 ?
  475. moparisthebest like how would you get link #1
  476. marc moparisthebest, #1 is more or like admin stuff
  477. moparisthebest so why isn't it the same?
  478. marc Ge0rG, don't get why this makes it more complicated than using an additional "ibr" parameter
  479. moparisthebest I still don't see any reason for more than 1 url
  480. moparisthebest whatever it may be
  481. moparisthebest it looks like all those have exactly the same info in slightly different formats, why?
  482. marc moparisthebest, no, they don't
  483. marc moparisthebest, because they are different? ;)
  484. moparisthebest what is different
  485. moparisthebest what info do they have?
  486. moparisthebest bet you wish you would have just let me wait for xep now lol
  487. moparisthebest you can go back to ignoring me if you want I don't mind :)
  488. marc moparisthebest, #1: contains the new account JID (newuser@example.com)
  489. marc moparisthebest, #2 contains the domain for IBR (example.com)
  490. moparisthebest do they not all contain domain for IBR ?
  491. Ge0rG marc: just completely delete #2
  492. moparisthebest so looks like 1 & 2 are same except extra useless 'register' and optional account name
  493. marc Ge0rG, we already agreed on it ;)
  494. Ge0rG marc: on deleting it
  495. Ge0rG And implementing the same functionality in #3
  496. marc And IIRC you liked the idea of different domains
  497. moparisthebest what does 'register' get you?
  498. marc moparisthebest, indicates account registration
  499. moparisthebest doesn't newuser@ indicate that?
  500. marc moparisthebest, no, because newuser is optional :P
  501. moparisthebest So what does it do differently
  502. marc moparisthebest, as I said, you could have xmpp://example.com/inviter@example.com?register;preauth=TOKEN
  503. marc But don't tell Ge0rG :D
  504. daniel has left
  505. Ge0rG marc: that won't work if the invitee already has an account!
  506. moparisthebest marc: point being you have to check if they have an account or not already so I think it's useless
  507. moparisthebest has joined
  508. moparisthebest And how do you validate it meh
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  510. marc Ge0rG, don't get your point
  511. marc Ge0rG, you're talking about #1, right?
  512. Ge0rG marc: no, #2
  513. marc Ge0rG, okay, what's the problem if the invitee already has an account?
  514. marc Why doesn't it work? You just show an dialog to add via the PARS token
  515. marc And show a short button or whatever that the invitee can also create an account on the server
  516. Ge0rG marc: because you need a #3 link for that to work
  517. marc s/short/small
  518. marc Ge0rG, why?
  519. marc Ge0rG, if the server doesn't support this XEP the client can generate #3 itself
  520. marc As fallback, the user doesn't even notice it
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  522. marc The same applies if the server doesn't allow IBR for invitation
  523. marc It just sends #3
  524. marc (This is what you describe as server-side PARS in your XEP)
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  526. Ge0rG marc: if the server allows ibr and generates the link, I still want it to be in #3 format, because that's most widely supported
  527. Ge0rG has left
  528. Ge0rG marc: if the server allows ibr and generates the link, I still want it to be in #3 format, because that's most widely supported
  529. marc Ge0rG, if these clients are implemented correctly it is even backward compatible ;)
  530. marc Ge0rG, #2 is backward compatible to #3 if you parse the URI properly IMO
  531. Ge0rG marc: no, it's something different
  532. marc Ge0rG, if you correctly parse the #3 URI you would extract the JID from the "path" component
  533. marc The same for #2
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  535. marc Ge0rG, in #3 the authority part is empty and the JID in the "path" component
  536. Ge0rG marc: except that #2 has completely weird semantics with a host as the authority
  537. Ge0rG marc: just leave it away, please
  538. marc Ge0rG, that's the sematinc of XMPP URIs
  539. marc Ge0rG, xmpp:///inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN if no domain is provided
  540. Ge0rG "this URI points to a jabber server."
  541. Ge0rG marc: xmpp:inviter@domain;preauth;ibr is an invitation to a user JID, with the hint that you can register on that domain
  542. marc Ge0rG, but you can not provide a good argument why that's a better solution ;)
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  544. Ge0rG marc: I've provided multiple good arguments multiple times already
  545. marc Ge0rG, both are backward compatible
  546. Ge0rG marc: I'm on my mobile client right now, and I really don't want to repeat them all
  547. Ge0rG marc: there are no clients supporting #2 dnd it has the wrong semantics
  548. marc Ge0rG, #1 has the same wrong semantic then?
  549. Ge0rG marc: #1 is sharing an account on a server
  550. marc Ge0rG, okay, what about xmpp://example.com?register;preauth=TOKEN (#1 without specified username)?
  551. Ge0rG marc: I still think we could completely cover most situations with just #3, but #1 adds some value
  552. Ge0rG marc: nope! Use #3
  553. marc Ge0rG, I'm talking about #1 scenario
  554. marc Ge0rG, is this URI correct?
  555. marc for #1 scenario...
  556. marc No trick question ;) I'll use "ibr" for user invitation
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  558. Ge0rG marc: if you don't supply a username, just skip the authority completely
  559. marc Hm, I don't know but we agree on the following: User invitation: xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN;ibr User invitation (without IBR, server-side PARS) xmpp:inviter@example.com?preauth=TOKEN
  560. marc If the server doesn't support this XEP the client generates #2 itself
  561. marc Okay?
  562. Ge0rG marc: yes
  563. marc Ge0rG, okay, I'll adapt the XEP accordingly
  564. Flow marc, is the (proto)xep online somewhere?
  565. Ge0rG marc: that is exactly what we agreed about, plus account invitation with xmpp://invitee@domain with a token
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  567. marc Flow, no, but I can upload it tomorrow or so
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