XSF Discussion - 2018-01-11

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  81. jonasw

    daniel, >> - the requester has received directed presence from the user. > > Doesn't work in MUC either I believe. (You can't send directed presence in muc iirc)

  82. jonasw

    on join you send directed presence to a MUC (but to the full JID)

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  91. daniel

    jonasw: yes but you can't send directed presence to other participants which is what we are talking about here right?

  92. jonasw

    I don’t think so

  93. jonasw

    the MUC service will proxy the vcard requests, from what we gathered here last night

  94. jonasw

    so from the perspective of your server, the vcard request will come from the MUC bare JID

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  96. daniel

    Mhhh maybe. So the implication is that everyone in that muc can access your vCard?

  97. jonasw


  98. jonasw

    like it’s now

  99. daniel

    i find that a bit complicated. my understanding is that server devs usually don't want to track your muc joins

  100. jonasw

    they’re implicitly tracked as directed presence anyways

  101. jonasw

    we don’t need to know that it’s a MUC join

  102. jonasw

    just that it’s directed presence

  103. daniel

    but directed presence aren't tracked are they?

  104. jonasw

    they need to

  105. jonasw

    for the type="unavailable" when the client exits

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  107. jonasw

    that’s in RFC 6121, I think

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  112. Zash

    Actually, since MUCs can give you a different nickname, join tracking is probably needed. Not that common tho

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  124. Ge0rG

    daniel: are you sufficiently convinced of my proposal now? ;)

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  126. daniel

    Ge0rG: if anying the directed presence access control should be in front of the entire vCard

  127. daniel

    I don't see Why pep avatars should be treated differently from vCard avatars

  128. daniel

    See me second email

  129. daniel

    Besides the way *both* implemations work that pre date the xep is the copy the Avatar on create.

  130. Ge0rG

    daniel: I think that "make my vcard public to the world" is a feature that long pre-dates the security awareness of normal people.

  131. Ge0rG

    you don't do that today

  132. Ge0rG

    daniel: I'd be okay with putting everything of vcard behind a presence subscription firewall

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  135. daniel

    I'm OK with that. This requires changing a historic xep though...

  136. Ge0rG

    daniel: Which is why I made my proposal as I did. It doesn't violate security expectations, requires changing a proto-XEP and some non-standard implementations ;)

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  140. MattJ

    I'm ok with it too, as a server dev

  141. MattJ

    Probably behind a config option, though

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  143. daniel

    MattJ: the access control in front of the vCard?

  144. MattJ


  145. MattJ

    As in, some deployments (or some users perhaps) should be able to have a public vcard if they want to

  146. daniel


  147. Kev

    For some deployments, not being behind a presence check doesn't make it public.

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  149. MattJ

    I meant public as in, no access control

  150. Kev

    Right, I was supporting your point of a config option.

  151. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, Zash - Also nickname changes get a bit weird without tracking.

  152. Ge0rG

    I just wanted to make a minimal change to presever the current privacy properties, not start a new bike shed ;)

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  154. daniel

    Ge0rG: don't claim other people are bike shedding. This might upset some people. Scnr

  155. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, Issuer in TOTP URI - it can be anything. Well, I've said 1*CHAR but in reality that's URI encoded. "XMPP" is only used in an example, as far as I know.

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  157. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, Could vCard access be controlled by the PEP Avatar access controls? Just a thought here.

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  159. daniel

    Dave Cridland: how would that work in muc?

  160. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: would work for me.

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  162. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: yes, "XMPP" is used in an example, but I still got confused by it. Maybe something like "BigCorpXMPPService" would be more suitable to indicate the non-normativeness of that special string?

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  165. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, Well... We need to figure out if we *want* a normative string there. It might be useful/nice to have "XMPP", or "Jabber" there by default.

  166. Dave Cridland

    daniel, Not really thought this through much.

  167. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: I have no idea about the implications of that string.

  168. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: is it just a tag in your TOTP key manager?

  169. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, In Google Authenticator, it shows the line above the address.

  170. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, So I have Google, LastPass, GitHub and PostOffice there, for example.

  171. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: It might be counter-productive to have three lines of "XMPP", then.

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  173. daniel

    I find presence based access control in front of vCard very reasonable. As this so fixes what most users would expect these days

  174. jonasw

    while we’d be at it: would it make sense to extend that access control to "shared presence or has sent a subscription request"? I.e. if A wants to subscribe to B, should B be allowed to see the vcard of A?

  175. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes

  176. jonasw

    despite A not having shared presence with B.

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  178. jonasw

    and should that privilege cease when the subscription has been accepted but B did not subscribe to A?

  179. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I think that proper presence pre-approval will solve both of your questions in a clean way

  180. Ge0rG

    Besides, it also makes it easier to befriend people

  181. daniel

    I also want presence pre-approval. But apparently it's complicated(tm)

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  185. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, It lists both the Issuer and the Account, so having multiple "XMPP" would be fine. I have multiple "Google" with different accounts, for instance.

  186. Flow

    Ge0rG, "proper presence pre-approval"?

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  189. Ge0rG

    Flow: support for https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#sub-preapproval

  190. Dave Cridland

    Perfect proper presence pre-approval, presumably?

  191. Flow

    Germans prefer "Super proper presence pre-approval"

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  194. Dave Cridland

    Flow, Doesn't alliterate as well, though.

  195. Kev

    Ain't all about alliteration.

  196. Dave Cridland

    Although alliteration's always awesome and appealling.

  197. jonasw

    Guter Gedanke, gerade Gewürzgurke gegessen.

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  260. Ge0rG

    It's not only Google who managed to not upgrade to TLS everywhere. It also affects Cisco WebEx Jabber. So sad.

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  264. Holger

    Well Cisco Jabber does TLS. @cisco.com doesn't have it enabled.

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  266. Ge0rG

    Didn't we just had a discussion about e2ee in WebEx?

  267. Holger

    Yeah, someone said it's awesome.

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  273. Ge0rG

    I'm sure it is.

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  307. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  308. MattJ


  309. ralphm bangs gavel

  310. ralphm

    0. Welcome and Agenda

  311. ralphm

    Who do we have today?

  312. ralphm

    Guus sent regrets.

  313. MattJ

    I'm here

  314. Martin

    I'm here

  315. suzyo has joined

  316. ralphm

    Good. nyco also mentioned he'd be here. He's refurbished our trello board, so I think we can start from there

  317. ralphm

    Anything else?

  318. lumi has joined

  319. Martin

    Nothing from me

  320. Ge0rG has left

  321. ralphm


  322. MattJ


  323. ralphm

    1. FOSDEM / XMPP Summit preparation

  324. ralphm

    Many things have already been arranged by several people, most notably Guus and intosi. We have a Summit Venue (same as last uncountable years), we have a Van, hotel options.

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  326. MattJ

    Anything that hasn't already been taken care of?

  327. ralphm

    I think the most pressing things, as listed by Guus are a) aggregating sponsors (usually for Lunch and Dinner) and b) swag / print stuff

  328. ralphm

    I need someone who can do a)

  329. MattJ

    I did it last year

  330. MattJ

    But to be quite honest, I'm not eager to do it again

  331. MattJ

    Because we seem to be lacking the means to actually collect the money that we seek

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  333. MattJ

    Apparently this has been a problem for multiple years

  334. MattJ

    and this comes under the funding/financing card I put in Trello for discussion, it's not necessarily just FOSDEM-related

  335. ralphm

    We haven't someone being on top of it, indeed

  336. ralphm

    Ok, so we need to quickly recruit someone, if we don't have people offering right here

  337. ralphm

    Help from the floor is appreciated.

  338. Kev

    I suggest that, as much as possible, you get people to pay for things directly.

  339. Kev

    To avoid needing to collect funds.

  340. ralphm

    Kev: that is indeed a reasonable suggestion, but I think especially for Dinner this is not necessarily easy

  341. Dave Cridland

    As an observation, someone has to actually pick up the tab for (for example) lunch, and then claim it back from somewhere. If that person isn't directly claiming it from the sponsor, then it requires a expense claim to the XSF and an invoice from the XSF to the sponsor.

  342. Dave Cridland

    For Dinner it's even worse, since that's usually the biggest single bill.

  343. ralphm

    Dave Cridland: indeed and we've not been awesome at this

  344. MattJ

    Dinner/lunch and convenience may be one thing, but in general I don't think the XSF ought to shy away from collecting funds

  345. MattJ

    or expenses

  346. Kev

    AFAIK, the XSF never invoiced Isode for their sponsorship last year (I've not checked with accounts), but equally we've not claimed back what we put in either towards taxis etc., which was about the same amount.

  347. MattJ

    I just think that traditionally these have both become painful inefficient processes

  348. ralphm

    Sending expenses to stpeter has generally been handled properly, afaict

  349. Kev

    ralphm: I'm not sure that's true. I think that often involves bank fees that leave people out of pocket, unless people know the system in advance.

  350. ralphm

    That is another, valid, issue indeed

  351. Kev

    (To be clear: Not that Peter has handled them improperly, but that the end result has been improper)

  352. ralphm

    yeah, understood

  353. ralphm

    There's been previous chatter about setting up a EU presence to handle that, but we never progressed on this

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  355. Kev

    As a suggestion, can someone (not me) work out what needs paying for the summit, how much it's going to cost, and ask for sponsors for each item (full or partial) that would pay it themselves.

  356. Kev

    This is not the Right thing to do, but it might be the expedient one.

  357. ralphm

    I think Van and Lunch is rather easy. Dinner, as said, not so much.

  358. Kev

    Otherwise I think we're at gathering arbitrary money amounts, and getting people to pay stuff/expense, etc.

  359. Dave Cridland

    Kev, I have been talking through some figures from previous summits with Guus toward this end, actually.

  360. ralphm

    And for swag and stickers it is rather easier, too.

  361. Kev

    Isode have already offered to sort out the van. I'm not sure if Guus said 'yes' yet.

  362. Dave Cridland

    Kev, I believe that's all done and dusted.

  363. Kev


  364. ralphm

    Kev: well, I'll gladly accept

  365. ralphm

    Ok, it seems we can't resolve this fully right now.

  366. ralphm

    When Guus is back tomorrow, I'll have a chat

  367. ralphm

    and see what we can do

  368. Dave Cridland

    Figuring out a candidate list of sponsors would be useful, but for obvious reasons cannot be done entirely in public.

  369. ralphm

    Then, in terms of swag, I think we have virtually none left.

  370. Dave Cridland

    (Since otherwise folks can tell who refused)

  371. ralphm

    I think I have one hoodie here, no stickers, no banner

  372. ralphm

    (but we do have a projector now)

  373. nyco


  374. nyco


  375. ralphm

    hi nyco

  376. nyco

    works veeeery weirdly

  377. nyco


  378. nyco

    logs are dead once again

  379. nyco

    can't work...

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  381. MattJ

    nyco, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-01-11/#14:29:45 ?

  382. ralphm

    I'm not sure if this is the right venue for discussing what to do for swag, etc. here, but I do want commitment from Board to make sure whoever orders especially clothing, gets payed expediently

  383. MattJ

    I think that's fine, but we should set an upper limit?

  384. MattJ

    Didn't we already give Guus a budget?

  385. ralphm

    Dave Cridland: do you remember what we used for budget last time around?

  386. MattJ

    for things like this

  387. ralphm

    MattJ: I think we did

  388. Dave Cridland

    ralphm, Nope. Not sure we did last time around, we relied on existing stock.

  389. Dave Cridland

    ralphm, I can only really talk to 2015's figures, since I happen to have those.

  390. MattJ

    "The board all agreed that a $1,000 per year budget was approved."

  391. Dave Cridland

    Oh, so I'm talking rubbish. :-)

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  393. nyco

    ok, once again, my Movim, my Conversations, and MAM are not in sync, too painful to reconstruct my unsent messages

  394. ralphm

    Dave Cridland: I meant 'last time we ordered'

  395. ralphm

    nyco: first I saw was 'hi' and 'sorry'

  396. nyco

    yeah, messages lost before that

  397. ralphm

    Ok, given that budget, I think we can work with this. I'll hammer out the details with Dave Cridland and Guus

  398. matlag has joined

  399. ralphm

    And discuss what we actually want in the SCAM room

  400. Kev

    I don't know if it's sensible, but a small number of 'summit 2018, Brussels' t-shirts for people might be nice.

  401. Kev

    (Just putting that out there)

  402. ralphm

    I think that's enough on FOSDEM/Summit for this meeting

  403. ralphm

    Kev: good suggestion

  404. ralphm

    2. GSoC

  405. ralphm

    I'd love us to do this again.

  406. Guus

    hello - I just got back.

  407. ralphm

    Hi Guus

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  410. Kev

    I have to vanish at this point. Possibly unfortunately. Poke me if you want things from me.

  411. MattJ

    *Kev disappears in a puff of smoke*

  412. MattJ

    Haha :)

  413. Kev

    My PT is waiting at the gym. She will kill me.

  414. ralphm

    Kev: just running GSoC, that's all

  415. Guus

    Kev, if we would do GSoC, would you be interested in adminning again?

  416. MattJ

    Assuming he may have left, I think we should do GSoC either way

  417. ralphm

    I motion we do, provided we have someone offering to admin (either Kev or someone else)

  418. MattJ


  419. Guus

    (trying to read back quickly: I did accept Isodes offer for arranging a Van. Said van has already been arranged. SCAM does indeed have a budget. I was unsure of the swag stock, so we'll need to order that. I have plenty of stickers and server folders, nothing else)

  420. MattJ

    If Kev declines, he may still be able to provide some description of what's involved

  421. ralphm

    Guus: I'll pick up the swag stuff with you

  422. Guus

    are affiliates interested in doing GSoC under the XSF umbrella again, this year?

  423. Guus

    maybe we should do a very quick inventory, if there's any interest?

  424. Guus

    ralph, ok

  425. ralphm

    We basically need proposals, in two weeks time

  426. ralphm

    I think in this meeting, we just say +1 / -1 on wether we want to start this

  427. ralphm

    I have +1 from MattJ and myself

  428. Guus


  429. ralphm


  430. Guus


  431. Martin


  432. ralphm

    So I'll ask Kev (again) if he'd like to admin again.

  433. nyco

    +1 of course for GSoC

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  435. ralphm


  436. ralphm

    3. Board Priorities

  437. ralphm

    nyco you had ideas on moving this forward

  438. nyco

    yeah, meeting

  439. nyco

    h the card

  440. nyco


  441. nyco


  442. nyco

    We have to organise a long, dedicated meeting: * using voice and video and screen sharing * each one of us exposing his thoughts, facts, observations, numbers, gut feelings, and cognitive biases * listening to and understanding each other, accepting all the divergences * try to converge * come up with a high-level list of priorities for this year * if possible, commit to deliver some

  443. nyco

    got this msg?

  444. ralphm


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  446. ralphm

    I'm +1 on scheduling this

  447. MattJ


  448. nyco


  449. Guus

    as am I

  450. nyco

    good, I'm on it

  451. ralphm

    MattJ, Martin are you coming to the Summit?

  452. MattJ


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  454. Guus

    you're thinking of doing it in person? would be good.

  455. Martin

    I'm not I'm afraid, poor timing of a series of hospital visits

  456. Guus

    ah, to bad.

  457. nyco


  458. ralphm

    Guus: that was indeed my idea, but we might still be able to, with Martin remote?

  459. nyco

    online, no pressure

  460. ralphm


  461. Guus

    I'm fine with either.

  462. nyco


  463. ralphm

    Yeah, we have the link

  464. ralphm

    4. Bus Factor Bank Account

  465. ralphm

    What we need here (again) is a volunteer

  466. ralphm

    I also prefer a Member

  467. ralphm

    but I'm not sure if this has to be a requirement

  468. nyco

    to me, Peter's suggestion looks fine, we should just make them a member

  469. Guus

    As I've written, I'd like to know what the banks default procedure is here.

  470. lumi has joined

  471. Guus

    Peter was going to look into that, I think.

  472. ralphm

    So we reply with a request for that?

  473. MattJ

    Yeah, I think we should know that in any case

  474. MattJ

    But I'm fine with one of the people he mentioned being a backup

  475. Guus

    ralphm: yeah - although I believe it's already being acted on.

  476. ralphm

    Guus: ok, so what do we do right now?

  477. Guus

    confirm with Peter that he's looking into that, wait for his feedback.

  478. ralphm


  479. ralphm


  480. ralphm

    Then I'm through my major items

  481. ralphm

    5. AOB

  482. Guus

    for the record: did we agree to offer the reimbursement for summit/fosdem expenses to the three gsoc students of last year, as discussed on the board list?

  483. ralphm

    I think we decided on list that we'd provide funding for young potential. Just stating we did.

  484. ralphm

    If it wasn't clear, I'm +1

  485. nyco

    so let's move the card

  486. Guus

    ok. I'll work with Kev to relay the offer to the students.

  487. MattJ

    Me too

  488. ralphm


  489. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  490. ralphm

    Outside of the planning of the Priorities Meeting, I suggest +1W for our regular get-together here.

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  492. Martin

    +1w works for me

  493. Guus

    I'm unsure if I can make it. While following the hearse this morning, we heard of another death in the familiy. :/

  494. ralphm

    7. Close

  495. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  496. ralphm bangs gavel

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  498. jonasw

    Guus, my sympathies

  499. Guus


  500. ralphm

    Guus: sorry to hear.

  501. Guus

    I'll send out an email when the funeral planning is definite.

  502. Guus

    Ralphm: when do you want to do swag?

  503. Guus

    if we're to order stuff, we probably shouldn't wait to long

  504. Guus

    we can move this into the SCAM muc though

  505. ralphm


  506. Guus


  507. ralphm

    Hope Dave Cridland can join to at least see what we did last time

  508. Guus

    He sent me an expense sheet

  509. nyco


  510. nyco


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  512. Dave Cridland

    ralphm, He has the spreadsheet I did from 2015.

  513. ralphm

    Oh crap, I forgot if someone could take minutes :-(

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  546. edhelas

    what's the rule for Deffered already ?

  547. mathieui

    12 months without any change iirc

  548. edhelas

    I'm actually implementing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0320.html in Movim

  549. edhelas


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  561. jonasw

    yeah, deferred is ~automatic

  562. jonasw

    I should run the script again

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  581. Ge0rG

    Oh, then it's probably time to change PARS

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  603. Alex

    got this error on our Wiki while trying to create a new account: Account creation error Error sending mail: Failed to connect to atlas.jabber.org:25 [SMTP: Failed to connect socket: php_network_getaddresses: getaddrinfo failed: Name or service not known (code: -1, response: )]

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  631. Kev

    Does it reproduce?

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  633. Kev

    ralphm: I'm happy to be involved as an org admin, but I don't have the time to be 'the' org admin this year. So I'd want someone else to step up and commit to doing all the legwork.

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  635. Kev

    (Which is often more work than being a mentor, so not someone who wanted to mentor too)

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  644. Alex

    Kev: does not allow to me add the same user again, and I don't want to create a dummy user right now to repro

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  673. Ge0rG

    So. What's the largest public MUC not related to XMPP?

  674. moparisthebest

    do IRC channels through biboumi count

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  676. jonasw

    going by this page: http://search.wensley.org.uk/chat/

  677. jonasw

    do rooms about clients count? :)

  678. jonasw

    if not, IT-MSE probbaly counts, whatever that is

  679. jonasw

    GNU/Linux is second (30)

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  701. Link Mauve

    “16:56:55 mathieuii> at least Anu is safe, Link Mauve has no apple device”, my iMac G3 doesn’t count? ;(

  702. Link Mauve

    But like every other of my non-Nintendo computers, it runs Linux.

  703. Link Mauve

    Although half of my Nintendo computers run Linux too.

  704. jonasw

    you are a strange (but cool) person.

  705. Link Mauve

    Heh, thanks. ^^

  706. edhelas

    strange is the new cool

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