XSF Discussion - 2018-01-11

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  81. jonasw daniel, >> - the requester has received directed presence from the user. > > Doesn't work in MUC either I believe. (You can't send directed presence in muc iirc)
  82. jonasw on join you send directed presence to a MUC (but to the full JID)
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  91. daniel jonasw: yes but you can't send directed presence to other participants which is what we are talking about here right?
  92. jonasw I don’t think so
  93. jonasw the MUC service will proxy the vcard requests, from what we gathered here last night
  94. jonasw so from the perspective of your server, the vcard request will come from the MUC bare JID
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  96. daniel Mhhh maybe. So the implication is that everyone in that muc can access your vCard?
  97. jonasw yupp
  98. jonasw like it’s now
  99. daniel i find that a bit complicated. my understanding is that server devs usually don't want to track your muc joins
  100. jonasw they’re implicitly tracked as directed presence anyways
  101. jonasw we don’t need to know that it’s a MUC join
  102. jonasw just that it’s directed presence
  103. daniel but directed presence aren't tracked are they?
  104. jonasw they need to
  105. jonasw for the type="unavailable" when the client exits
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  107. jonasw that’s in RFC 6121, I think
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  112. Zash Actually, since MUCs can give you a different nickname, join tracking is probably needed. Not that common tho
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  124. Ge0rG daniel: are you sufficiently convinced of my proposal now? ;)
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  126. daniel Ge0rG: if anying the directed presence access control should be in front of the entire vCard
  127. daniel I don't see Why pep avatars should be treated differently from vCard avatars
  128. daniel See me second email
  129. daniel Besides the way *both* implemations work that pre date the xep is the copy the Avatar on create.
  130. Ge0rG daniel: I think that "make my vcard public to the world" is a feature that long pre-dates the security awareness of normal people.
  131. Ge0rG you don't do that today
  132. Ge0rG daniel: I'd be okay with putting everything of vcard behind a presence subscription firewall
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  135. daniel I'm OK with that. This requires changing a historic xep though...
  136. Ge0rG daniel: Which is why I made my proposal as I did. It doesn't violate security expectations, requires changing a proto-XEP and some non-standard implementations ;)
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  140. MattJ I'm ok with it too, as a server dev
  141. MattJ Probably behind a config option, though
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  143. daniel MattJ: the access control in front of the vCard?
  144. MattJ Yes
  145. MattJ As in, some deployments (or some users perhaps) should be able to have a public vcard if they want to
  146. daniel Yes
  147. Kev For some deployments, not being behind a presence check doesn't make it public.
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  149. MattJ I meant public as in, no access control
  150. Kev Right, I was supporting your point of a config option.
  151. Dave Cridland jonasw, Zash - Also nickname changes get a bit weird without tracking.
  152. Ge0rG I just wanted to make a minimal change to presever the current privacy properties, not start a new bike shed ;)
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  154. daniel Ge0rG: don't claim other people are bike shedding. This might upset some people. Scnr
  155. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Issuer in TOTP URI - it can be anything. Well, I've said 1*CHAR but in reality that's URI encoded. "XMPP" is only used in an example, as far as I know.
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  157. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Could vCard access be controlled by the PEP Avatar access controls? Just a thought here.
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  159. daniel Dave Cridland: how would that work in muc?
  160. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: would work for me.
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  162. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: yes, "XMPP" is used in an example, but I still got confused by it. Maybe something like "BigCorpXMPPService" would be more suitable to indicate the non-normativeness of that special string?
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  165. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Well... We need to figure out if we *want* a normative string there. It might be useful/nice to have "XMPP", or "Jabber" there by default.
  166. Dave Cridland daniel, Not really thought this through much.
  167. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I have no idea about the implications of that string.
  168. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: is it just a tag in your TOTP key manager?
  169. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, In Google Authenticator, it shows the line above the address.
  170. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, So I have Google, LastPass, GitHub and PostOffice there, for example.
  171. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: It might be counter-productive to have three lines of "XMPP", then.
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  173. daniel I find presence based access control in front of vCard very reasonable. As this so fixes what most users would expect these days
  174. jonasw while we’d be at it: would it make sense to extend that access control to "shared presence or has sent a subscription request"? I.e. if A wants to subscribe to B, should B be allowed to see the vcard of A?
  175. Ge0rG jonasw: yes
  176. jonasw despite A not having shared presence with B.
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  178. jonasw and should that privilege cease when the subscription has been accepted but B did not subscribe to A?
  179. Ge0rG jonasw: I think that proper presence pre-approval will solve both of your questions in a clean way
  180. Ge0rG Besides, it also makes it easier to befriend people
  181. daniel I also want presence pre-approval. But apparently it's complicated(tm)
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  185. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, It lists both the Issuer and the Account, so having multiple "XMPP" would be fine. I have multiple "Google" with different accounts, for instance.
  186. Flow Ge0rG, "proper presence pre-approval"?
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  189. Ge0rG Flow: support for https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#sub-preapproval
  190. Dave Cridland Perfect proper presence pre-approval, presumably?
  191. Flow Germans prefer "Super proper presence pre-approval"
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  194. Dave Cridland Flow, Doesn't alliterate as well, though.
  195. Kev Ain't all about alliteration.
  196. Dave Cridland Although alliteration's always awesome and appealling.
  197. jonasw Guter Gedanke, gerade Gewürzgurke gegessen.
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  260. Ge0rG It's not only Google who managed to not upgrade to TLS everywhere. It also affects Cisco WebEx Jabber. So sad.
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  264. Holger Well Cisco Jabber does TLS. @cisco.com doesn't have it enabled.
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  266. Ge0rG Didn't we just had a discussion about e2ee in WebEx?
  267. Holger Yeah, someone said it's awesome.
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  273. Ge0rG I'm sure it is.
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  307. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  308. MattJ o/
  309. ralphm bangs gavel
  310. ralphm 0. Welcome and Agenda
  311. ralphm Who do we have today?
  312. ralphm Guus sent regrets.
  313. MattJ I'm here
  314. Martin I'm here
  315. suzyo has joined
  316. ralphm Good. nyco also mentioned he'd be here. He's refurbished our trello board, so I think we can start from there
  317. ralphm Anything else?
  318. lumi has joined
  319. Martin Nothing from me
  320. Ge0rG has left
  321. ralphm Ok.
  322. MattJ Ditto
  323. ralphm 1. FOSDEM / XMPP Summit preparation
  324. ralphm Many things have already been arranged by several people, most notably Guus and intosi. We have a Summit Venue (same as last uncountable years), we have a Van, hotel options.
  325. suzyo has joined
  326. MattJ Anything that hasn't already been taken care of?
  327. ralphm I think the most pressing things, as listed by Guus are a) aggregating sponsors (usually for Lunch and Dinner) and b) swag / print stuff
  328. ralphm I need someone who can do a)
  329. MattJ I did it last year
  330. MattJ But to be quite honest, I'm not eager to do it again
  331. MattJ Because we seem to be lacking the means to actually collect the money that we seek
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  333. MattJ Apparently this has been a problem for multiple years
  334. MattJ and this comes under the funding/financing card I put in Trello for discussion, it's not necessarily just FOSDEM-related
  335. ralphm We haven't someone being on top of it, indeed
  336. ralphm Ok, so we need to quickly recruit someone, if we don't have people offering right here
  337. ralphm Help from the floor is appreciated.
  338. Kev I suggest that, as much as possible, you get people to pay for things directly.
  339. Kev To avoid needing to collect funds.
  340. ralphm Kev: that is indeed a reasonable suggestion, but I think especially for Dinner this is not necessarily easy
  341. Dave Cridland As an observation, someone has to actually pick up the tab for (for example) lunch, and then claim it back from somewhere. If that person isn't directly claiming it from the sponsor, then it requires a expense claim to the XSF and an invoice from the XSF to the sponsor.
  342. Dave Cridland For Dinner it's even worse, since that's usually the biggest single bill.
  343. ralphm Dave Cridland: indeed and we've not been awesome at this
  344. MattJ Dinner/lunch and convenience may be one thing, but in general I don't think the XSF ought to shy away from collecting funds
  345. MattJ or expenses
  346. Kev AFAIK, the XSF never invoiced Isode for their sponsorship last year (I've not checked with accounts), but equally we've not claimed back what we put in either towards taxis etc., which was about the same amount.
  347. MattJ I just think that traditionally these have both become painful inefficient processes
  348. ralphm Sending expenses to stpeter has generally been handled properly, afaict
  349. Kev ralphm: I'm not sure that's true. I think that often involves bank fees that leave people out of pocket, unless people know the system in advance.
  350. ralphm That is another, valid, issue indeed
  351. Kev (To be clear: Not that Peter has handled them improperly, but that the end result has been improper)
  352. ralphm yeah, understood
  353. ralphm There's been previous chatter about setting up a EU presence to handle that, but we never progressed on this
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  355. Kev As a suggestion, can someone (not me) work out what needs paying for the summit, how much it's going to cost, and ask for sponsors for each item (full or partial) that would pay it themselves.
  356. Kev This is not the Right thing to do, but it might be the expedient one.
  357. ralphm I think Van and Lunch is rather easy. Dinner, as said, not so much.
  358. Kev Otherwise I think we're at gathering arbitrary money amounts, and getting people to pay stuff/expense, etc.
  359. Dave Cridland Kev, I have been talking through some figures from previous summits with Guus toward this end, actually.
  360. ralphm And for swag and stickers it is rather easier, too.
  361. Kev Isode have already offered to sort out the van. I'm not sure if Guus said 'yes' yet.
  362. Dave Cridland Kev, I believe that's all done and dusted.
  363. Kev Excerrent.
  364. ralphm Kev: well, I'll gladly accept
  365. ralphm Ok, it seems we can't resolve this fully right now.
  366. ralphm When Guus is back tomorrow, I'll have a chat
  367. ralphm and see what we can do
  368. Dave Cridland Figuring out a candidate list of sponsors would be useful, but for obvious reasons cannot be done entirely in public.
  369. ralphm Then, in terms of swag, I think we have virtually none left.
  370. Dave Cridland (Since otherwise folks can tell who refused)
  371. ralphm I think I have one hoodie here, no stickers, no banner
  372. ralphm (but we do have a projector now)
  373. nyco hi
  374. nyco sorry
  375. ralphm hi nyco
  376. nyco works veeeery weirdly
  377. nyco ah
  378. nyco logs are dead once again
  379. nyco can't work...
  380. Ge0rG has left
  381. MattJ nyco, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-01-11/#14:29:45 ?
  382. ralphm I'm not sure if this is the right venue for discussing what to do for swag, etc. here, but I do want commitment from Board to make sure whoever orders especially clothing, gets payed expediently
  383. MattJ I think that's fine, but we should set an upper limit?
  384. MattJ Didn't we already give Guus a budget?
  385. ralphm Dave Cridland: do you remember what we used for budget last time around?
  386. MattJ for things like this
  387. ralphm MattJ: I think we did
  388. Dave Cridland ralphm, Nope. Not sure we did last time around, we relied on existing stock.
  389. Dave Cridland ralphm, I can only really talk to 2015's figures, since I happen to have those.
  390. MattJ "The board all agreed that a $1,000 per year budget was approved."
  391. Dave Cridland Oh, so I'm talking rubbish. :-)
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  393. nyco ok, once again, my Movim, my Conversations, and MAM are not in sync, too painful to reconstruct my unsent messages
  394. ralphm Dave Cridland: I meant 'last time we ordered'
  395. ralphm nyco: first I saw was 'hi' and 'sorry'
  396. nyco yeah, messages lost before that
  397. ralphm Ok, given that budget, I think we can work with this. I'll hammer out the details with Dave Cridland and Guus
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  399. ralphm And discuss what we actually want in the SCAM room
  400. Kev I don't know if it's sensible, but a small number of 'summit 2018, Brussels' t-shirts for people might be nice.
  401. Kev (Just putting that out there)
  402. ralphm I think that's enough on FOSDEM/Summit for this meeting
  403. ralphm Kev: good suggestion
  404. ralphm 2. GSoC
  405. ralphm I'd love us to do this again.
  406. Guus hello - I just got back.
  407. ralphm Hi Guus
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  410. Kev I have to vanish at this point. Possibly unfortunately. Poke me if you want things from me.
  411. MattJ *Kev disappears in a puff of smoke*
  412. MattJ Haha :)
  413. Kev My PT is waiting at the gym. She will kill me.
  414. ralphm Kev: just running GSoC, that's all
  415. Guus Kev, if we would do GSoC, would you be interested in adminning again?
  416. MattJ Assuming he may have left, I think we should do GSoC either way
  417. ralphm I motion we do, provided we have someone offering to admin (either Kev or someone else)
  418. MattJ Right
  419. Guus (trying to read back quickly: I did accept Isodes offer for arranging a Van. Said van has already been arranged. SCAM does indeed have a budget. I was unsure of the swag stock, so we'll need to order that. I have plenty of stickers and server folders, nothing else)
  420. MattJ If Kev declines, he may still be able to provide some description of what's involved
  421. ralphm Guus: I'll pick up the swag stuff with you
  422. Guus are affiliates interested in doing GSoC under the XSF umbrella again, this year?
  423. Guus maybe we should do a very quick inventory, if there's any interest?
  424. Guus ralph, ok
  425. ralphm We basically need proposals, in two weeks time
  426. ralphm I think in this meeting, we just say +1 / -1 on wether we want to start this
  427. ralphm I have +1 from MattJ and myself
  428. Guus +!
  429. ralphm nyco?
  430. Guus +1
  431. Martin +1
  432. ralphm So I'll ask Kev (again) if he'd like to admin again.
  433. nyco +1 of course for GSoC
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  435. ralphm ok
  436. ralphm 3. Board Priorities
  437. ralphm nyco you had ideas on moving this forward
  438. nyco yeah, meeting
  439. nyco h the card
  440. nyco buh
  441. nyco https://trello.com/c/yZOaF3WH/247-board-priorities-2018
  442. nyco We have to organise a long, dedicated meeting: * using voice and video and screen sharing * each one of us exposing his thoughts, facts, observations, numbers, gut feelings, and cognitive biases * listening to and understanding each other, accepting all the divergences * try to converge * come up with a high-level list of priorities for this year * if possible, commit to deliver some
  443. nyco got this msg?
  444. ralphm Yes
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  446. ralphm I'm +1 on scheduling this
  447. MattJ Likewise
  448. nyco +1
  449. Guus as am I
  450. nyco good, I'm on it
  451. ralphm MattJ, Martin are you coming to the Summit?
  452. MattJ Yes
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  454. Guus you're thinking of doing it in person? would be good.
  455. Martin I'm not I'm afraid, poor timing of a series of hospital visits
  456. Guus ah, to bad.
  457. nyco https://trello.com/c/sBcxZrGZ/299-plan-and-organise-a-meeting-for-board-prios
  458. ralphm Guus: that was indeed my idea, but we might still be able to, with Martin remote?
  459. nyco online, no pressure
  460. ralphm ok
  461. Guus I'm fine with either.
  462. nyco https://trello.com/c/sBcxZrGZ/299-plan-and-organise-a-meeting-for-board-prios
  463. ralphm Yeah, we have the link
  464. ralphm 4. Bus Factor Bank Account
  465. ralphm What we need here (again) is a volunteer
  466. ralphm I also prefer a Member
  467. ralphm but I'm not sure if this has to be a requirement
  468. nyco to me, Peter's suggestion looks fine, we should just make them a member
  469. Guus As I've written, I'd like to know what the banks default procedure is here.
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  471. Guus Peter was going to look into that, I think.
  472. ralphm So we reply with a request for that?
  473. MattJ Yeah, I think we should know that in any case
  474. MattJ But I'm fine with one of the people he mentioned being a backup
  475. Guus ralphm: yeah - although I believe it's already being acted on.
  476. ralphm Guus: ok, so what do we do right now?
  477. Guus confirm with Peter that he's looking into that, wait for his feedback.
  478. ralphm lok
  479. ralphm ok
  480. ralphm Then I'm through my major items
  481. ralphm 5. AOB
  482. Guus for the record: did we agree to offer the reimbursement for summit/fosdem expenses to the three gsoc students of last year, as discussed on the board list?
  483. ralphm I think we decided on list that we'd provide funding for young potential. Just stating we did.
  484. ralphm If it wasn't clear, I'm +1
  485. nyco so let's move the card
  486. Guus ok. I'll work with Kev to relay the offer to the students.
  487. MattJ Me too
  488. ralphm Splendid
  489. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  490. ralphm Outside of the planning of the Priorities Meeting, I suggest +1W for our regular get-together here.
  491. daniel has left
  492. Martin +1w works for me
  493. Guus I'm unsure if I can make it. While following the hearse this morning, we heard of another death in the familiy. :/
  494. ralphm 7. Close
  495. ralphm Thanks all!
  496. ralphm bangs gavel
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  498. jonasw Guus, my sympathies
  499. Guus thanks.
  500. ralphm Guus: sorry to hear.
  501. Guus I'll send out an email when the funeral planning is definite.
  502. Guus Ralphm: when do you want to do swag?
  503. Guus if we're to order stuff, we probably shouldn't wait to long
  504. Guus we can move this into the SCAM muc though
  505. ralphm Now?
  506. Guus sure
  507. ralphm Hope Dave Cridland can join to at least see what we did last time
  508. Guus He sent me an expense sheet
  509. nyco Test
  510. nyco Test
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  512. Dave Cridland ralphm, He has the spreadsheet I did from 2015.
  513. ralphm Oh crap, I forgot if someone could take minutes :-(
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  546. edhelas what's the rule for Deffered already ?
  547. mathieui 12 months without any change iirc
  548. edhelas I'm actually implementing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0320.html in Movim
  549. edhelas ok
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  561. jonasw yeah, deferred is ~automatic
  562. jonasw I should run the script again
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  581. Ge0rG Oh, then it's probably time to change PARS
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  603. Alex got this error on our Wiki while trying to create a new account: Account creation error Error sending mail: Failed to connect to atlas.jabber.org:25 [SMTP: Failed to connect socket: php_network_getaddresses: getaddrinfo failed: Name or service not known (code: -1, response: )]
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  631. Kev Does it reproduce?
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  633. Kev ralphm: I'm happy to be involved as an org admin, but I don't have the time to be 'the' org admin this year. So I'd want someone else to step up and commit to doing all the legwork.
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  635. Kev (Which is often more work than being a mentor, so not someone who wanted to mentor too)
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  644. Alex Kev: does not allow to me add the same user again, and I don't want to create a dummy user right now to repro
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  673. Ge0rG So. What's the largest public MUC not related to XMPP?
  674. moparisthebest do IRC channels through biboumi count
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  676. jonasw going by this page: http://search.wensley.org.uk/chat/
  677. jonasw do rooms about clients count? :)
  678. jonasw if not, IT-MSE probbaly counts, whatever that is
  679. jonasw GNU/Linux is second (30)
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  701. Link Mauve “16:56:55 mathieuii> at least Anu is safe, Link Mauve has no apple device”, my iMac G3 doesn’t count? ;(
  702. Link Mauve But like every other of my non-Nintendo computers, it runs Linux.
  703. Link Mauve Although half of my Nintendo computers run Linux too.
  704. jonasw you are a strange (but cool) person.
  705. Link Mauve Heh, thanks. ^^
  706. edhelas strange is the new cool
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