jonaswdaniel,
>> - the requester has received directed presence from the user.
>
> Doesn't work in MUC either I believe. (You can't send directed presence in muc iirc)
jonaswon join you send directed presence to a MUC (but to the full JID)
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danieljonasw: yes but you can't send directed presence to other participants which is what we are talking about here right?
jonaswI don’t think so
jonaswthe MUC service will proxy the vcard requests, from what we gathered here last night
jonaswso from the perspective of your server, the vcard request will come from the MUC bare JID
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danielMhhh maybe. So the implication is that everyone in that muc can access your vCard?
jonaswyupp
jonaswlike it’s now
danieli find that a bit complicated. my understanding is that server devs usually don't want to track your muc joins
jonaswthey’re implicitly tracked as directed presence anyways
jonaswwe don’t need to know that it’s a MUC join
jonaswjust that it’s directed presence
danielbut directed presence aren't tracked are they?
jonaswthey need to
jonaswfor the type="unavailable" when the client exits
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jonaswthat’s in RFC 6121, I think
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ZashActually, since MUCs can give you a different nickname, join tracking is probably needed. Not that common tho
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Ge0rGdaniel: are you sufficiently convinced of my proposal now? ;)
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danielGe0rG: if anying the directed presence access control should be in front of the entire vCard
danielI don't see Why pep avatars should be treated differently from vCard avatars
danielSee me second email
danielBesides the way *both* implemations work that pre date the xep is the copy the Avatar on create.
Ge0rGdaniel: I think that "make my vcard public to the world" is a feature that long pre-dates the security awareness of normal people.
Ge0rGyou don't do that today
Ge0rGdaniel: I'd be okay with putting everything of vcard behind a presence subscription firewall
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danielI'm OK with that. This requires changing a historic xep though...
Ge0rGdaniel: Which is why I made my proposal as I did. It doesn't violate security expectations, requires changing a proto-XEP and some non-standard implementations ;)
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MattJI'm ok with it too, as a server dev
MattJProbably behind a config option, though
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danielMattJ: the access control in front of the vCard?
MattJYes
MattJAs in, some deployments (or some users perhaps) should be able to have a public vcard if they want to
danielYes
KevFor some deployments, not being behind a presence check doesn't make it public.
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MattJI meant public as in, no access control
KevRight, I was supporting your point of a config option.
Dave Cridlandjonasw, Zash - Also nickname changes get a bit weird without tracking.
Ge0rGI just wanted to make a minimal change to presever the current privacy properties, not start a new bike shed ;)
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danielGe0rG: don't claim other people are bike shedding. This might upset some people. Scnr
Dave CridlandGe0rG, Issuer in TOTP URI - it can be anything. Well, I've said 1*CHAR but in reality that's URI encoded. "XMPP" is only used in an example, as far as I know.
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Dave CridlandGe0rG, Could vCard access be controlled by the PEP Avatar access controls? Just a thought here.
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danielDave Cridland: how would that work in muc?
Ge0rGDave Cridland: would work for me.
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Ge0rGDave Cridland: yes, "XMPP" is used in an example, but I still got confused by it. Maybe something like "BigCorpXMPPService" would be more suitable to indicate the non-normativeness of that special string?
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Dave CridlandGe0rG, Well... We need to figure out if we *want* a normative string there. It might be useful/nice to have "XMPP", or "Jabber" there by default.
Dave Cridlanddaniel, Not really thought this through much.
Ge0rGDave Cridland: I have no idea about the implications of that string.
Ge0rGDave Cridland: is it just a tag in your TOTP key manager?
Dave CridlandGe0rG, In Google Authenticator, it shows the line above the address.
Dave CridlandGe0rG, So I have Google, LastPass, GitHub and PostOffice there, for example.
Ge0rGDave Cridland: It might be counter-productive to have three lines of "XMPP", then.
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danielI find presence based access control in front of vCard very reasonable. As this so fixes what most users would expect these days
jonaswwhile we’d be at it: would it make sense to extend that access control to "shared presence or has sent a subscription request"? I.e. if A wants to subscribe to B, should B be allowed to see the vcard of A?
Ge0rGjonasw: yes
jonaswdespite A not having shared presence with B.
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jonaswand should that privilege cease when the subscription has been accepted but B did not subscribe to A?
Ge0rGjonasw: I think that proper presence pre-approval will solve both of your questions in a clean way
Ge0rGBesides, it also makes it easier to befriend people
danielI also want presence pre-approval. But apparently it's complicated(tm)
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Dave CridlandGe0rG, It lists both the Issuer and the Account, so having multiple "XMPP" would be fine. I have multiple "Google" with different accounts, for instance.
FlowGe0rG, "proper presence pre-approval"?
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Ge0rGFlow: support for https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#sub-preapproval
Dave CridlandPerfect proper presence pre-approval, presumably?
ralphmGood. nyco also mentioned he'd be here. He's refurbished our trello board, so I think we can start from there
ralphmAnything else?
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MartinNothing from me
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ralphmOk.
MattJDitto
ralphm1. FOSDEM / XMPP Summit preparation
ralphmMany things have already been arranged by several people, most notably Guus and intosi. We have a Summit Venue (same as last uncountable years), we have a Van, hotel options.
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MattJAnything that hasn't already been taken care of?
ralphmI think the most pressing things, as listed by Guus are a) aggregating sponsors (usually for Lunch and Dinner) and b) swag / print stuff
ralphmI need someone who can do a)
MattJI did it last year
MattJBut to be quite honest, I'm not eager to do it again
MattJBecause we seem to be lacking the means to actually collect the money that we seek
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MattJApparently this has been a problem for multiple years
MattJand this comes under the funding/financing card I put in Trello for discussion, it's not necessarily just FOSDEM-related
ralphmWe haven't someone being on top of it, indeed
ralphmOk, so we need to quickly recruit someone, if we don't have people offering right here
ralphmHelp from the floor is appreciated.
KevI suggest that, as much as possible, you get people to pay for things directly.
KevTo avoid needing to collect funds.
ralphmKev: that is indeed a reasonable suggestion, but I think especially for Dinner this is not necessarily easy
Dave CridlandAs an observation, someone has to actually pick up the tab for (for example) lunch, and then claim it back from somewhere. If that person isn't directly claiming it from the sponsor, then it requires a expense claim to the XSF and an invoice from the XSF to the sponsor.
Dave CridlandFor Dinner it's even worse, since that's usually the biggest single bill.
ralphmDave Cridland: indeed and we've not been awesome at this
MattJDinner/lunch and convenience may be one thing, but in general I don't think the XSF ought to shy away from collecting funds
MattJor expenses
KevAFAIK, the XSF never invoiced Isode for their sponsorship last year (I've not checked with accounts), but equally we've not claimed back what we put in either towards taxis etc., which was about the same amount.
MattJI just think that traditionally these have both become painful inefficient processes
ralphmSending expenses to stpeter has generally been handled properly, afaict
Kevralphm: I'm not sure that's true. I think that often involves bank fees that leave people out of pocket, unless people know the system in advance.
ralphmThat is another, valid, issue indeed
Kev(To be clear: Not that Peter has handled them improperly, but that the end result has been improper)
ralphmyeah, understood
ralphmThere's been previous chatter about setting up a EU presence to handle that, but we never progressed on this
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KevAs a suggestion, can someone (not me) work out what needs paying for the summit, how much it's going to cost, and ask for sponsors for each item (full or partial) that would pay it themselves.
KevThis is not the Right thing to do, but it might be the expedient one.
ralphmI think Van and Lunch is rather easy. Dinner, as said, not so much.
KevOtherwise I think we're at gathering arbitrary money amounts, and getting people to pay stuff/expense, etc.
Dave CridlandKev, I have been talking through some figures from previous summits with Guus toward this end, actually.
ralphmAnd for swag and stickers it is rather easier, too.
KevIsode have already offered to sort out the van. I'm not sure if Guus said 'yes' yet.
Dave CridlandKev, I believe that's all done and dusted.
KevExcerrent.
ralphmKev: well, I'll gladly accept
ralphmOk, it seems we can't resolve this fully right now.
ralphmWhen Guus is back tomorrow, I'll have a chat
ralphmand see what we can do
Dave CridlandFiguring out a candidate list of sponsors would be useful, but for obvious reasons cannot be done entirely in public.
ralphmThen, in terms of swag, I think we have virtually none left.
Dave Cridland(Since otherwise folks can tell who refused)
ralphmI think I have one hoodie here, no stickers, no banner
ralphmI'm not sure if this is the right venue for discussing what to do for swag, etc. here, but I do want commitment from Board to make sure whoever orders especially clothing, gets payed expediently
MattJI think that's fine, but we should set an upper limit?
MattJDidn't we already give Guus a budget?
ralphmDave Cridland: do you remember what we used for budget last time around?
MattJfor things like this
ralphmMattJ: I think we did
Dave Cridlandralphm, Nope. Not sure we did last time around, we relied on existing stock.
Dave Cridlandralphm, I can only really talk to 2015's figures, since I happen to have those.
MattJ"The board all agreed that a $1,000 per year budget was approved."
Dave CridlandOh, so I'm talking rubbish. :-)
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nycook, once again, my Movim, my Conversations, and MAM are not in sync, too painful to reconstruct my unsent messages
ralphmDave Cridland: I meant 'last time we ordered'
ralphmnyco: first I saw was 'hi' and 'sorry'
nycoyeah, messages lost before that
ralphmOk, given that budget, I think we can work with this. I'll hammer out the details with Dave Cridland and Guus
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ralphmAnd discuss what we actually want in the SCAM room
KevI don't know if it's sensible, but a small number of 'summit 2018, Brussels' t-shirts for people might be nice.
Kev(Just putting that out there)
ralphmI think that's enough on FOSDEM/Summit for this meeting
ralphmKev: good suggestion
ralphm2. GSoC
ralphmI'd love us to do this again.
Guushello - I just got back.
ralphmHi Guus
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KevI have to vanish at this point. Possibly unfortunately. Poke me if you want things from me.
MattJ*Kev disappears in a puff of smoke*
MattJHaha :)
KevMy PT is waiting at the gym. She will kill me.
ralphmKev: just running GSoC, that's all
GuusKev, if we would do GSoC, would you be interested in adminning again?
MattJAssuming he may have left, I think we should do GSoC either way
ralphmI motion we do, provided we have someone offering to admin (either Kev or someone else)
MattJRight
Guus(trying to read back quickly: I did accept Isodes offer for arranging a Van. Said van has already been arranged. SCAM does indeed have a budget. I was unsure of the swag stock, so we'll need to order that. I have plenty of stickers and server folders, nothing else)
MattJIf Kev declines, he may still be able to provide some description of what's involved
ralphmGuus: I'll pick up the swag stuff with you
Guusare affiliates interested in doing GSoC under the XSF umbrella again, this year?
Guusmaybe we should do a very quick inventory, if there's any interest?
Guusralph, ok
ralphmWe basically need proposals, in two weeks time
ralphmI think in this meeting, we just say +1 / -1 on wether we want to start this
ralphmI have +1 from MattJ and myself
Guus+!
ralphmnyco?
Guus+1
Martin+1
ralphmSo I'll ask Kev (again) if he'd like to admin again.
nycoWe have to organise a long, dedicated meeting:
* using voice and video and screen sharing
* each one of us exposing his thoughts, facts, observations, numbers, gut feelings, and cognitive biases
* listening to and understanding each other, accepting all the divergences
* try to converge
* come up with a high-level list of priorities for this year
* if possible, commit to deliver some
nycogot this msg?
ralphmYes
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ralphmI'm +1 on scheduling this
MattJLikewise
nyco+1
Guusas am I
nycogood, I'm on it
ralphmMattJ, Martin are you coming to the Summit?
MattJYes
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Guusyou're thinking of doing it in person? would be good.
MartinI'm not I'm afraid, poor timing of a series of hospital visits
ralphmbut I'm not sure if this has to be a requirement
nycoto me, Peter's suggestion looks fine, we should just make them a member
GuusAs I've written, I'd like to know what the banks default procedure is here.
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GuusPeter was going to look into that, I think.
ralphmSo we reply with a request for that?
MattJYeah, I think we should know that in any case
MattJBut I'm fine with one of the people he mentioned being a backup
Guusralphm: yeah - although I believe it's already being acted on.
ralphmGuus: ok, so what do we do right now?
Guusconfirm with Peter that he's looking into that, wait for his feedback.
ralphmlok
ralphmok
ralphmThen I'm through my major items
ralphm5. AOB
Guusfor the record: did we agree to offer the reimbursement for summit/fosdem expenses to the three gsoc students of last year, as discussed on the board list?
ralphmI think we decided on list that we'd provide funding for young potential. Just stating we did.
ralphmIf it wasn't clear, I'm +1
nycoso let's move the card
Guusok. I'll work with Kev to relay the offer to the students.
MattJMe too
ralphmSplendid
ralphm6. Date of Next
ralphmOutside of the planning of the Priorities Meeting, I suggest +1W for our regular get-together here.
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Martin+1w works for me
GuusI'm unsure if I can make it. While following the hearse this morning, we heard of another death in the familiy. :/
ralphm7. Close
ralphmThanks all!
ralphmbangs gavel
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jonaswGuus, my sympathies
Guusthanks.
ralphmGuus: sorry to hear.
GuusI'll send out an email when the funeral planning is definite.
GuusRalphm: when do you want to do swag?
Guusif we're to order stuff, we probably shouldn't wait to long
Guuswe can move this into the SCAM muc though
ralphmNow?
Guussure
ralphmHope Dave Cridland can join to at least see what we did last time
GuusHe sent me an expense sheet
nycoTest
nycoTest
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Dave Cridlandralphm, He has the spreadsheet I did from 2015.
ralphmOh crap, I forgot if someone could take minutes :-(
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edhelaswhat's the rule for Deffered already ?
mathieui12 months without any change iirc
edhelasI'm actually implementing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0320.html in Movim
edhelasok
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jonaswyeah, deferred is ~automatic
jonaswI should run the script again
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Ge0rGOh, then it's probably time to change PARS
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Alexgot this error on our Wiki while trying to create a new account:
Account creation error
Error sending mail: Failed to connect to atlas.jabber.org:25 [SMTP: Failed to connect socket: php_network_getaddresses: getaddrinfo failed: Name or service not known (code: -1, response: )]
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KevDoes it reproduce?
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Kevralphm: I'm happy to be involved as an org admin, but I don't have the time to be 'the' org admin this year. So I'd want someone else to step up and commit to doing all the legwork.
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Kev(Which is often more work than being a mentor, so not someone who wanted to mentor too)
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AlexKev: does not allow to me add the same user again, and I don't want to create a dummy user right now to repro
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Ge0rGSo. What's the largest public MUC not related to XMPP?
moparisthebestdo IRC channels through biboumi count
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jonaswgoing by this page: http://search.wensley.org.uk/chat/
jonaswdo rooms about clients count? :)
jonaswif not, IT-MSE probbaly counts, whatever that is
jonaswGNU/Linux is second (30)
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Link Mauve“16:56:55 mathieuii> at least Anu is safe, Link Mauve has no apple device”, my iMac G3 doesn’t count? ;(
Link MauveBut like every other of my non-Nintendo computers, it runs Linux.
Link MauveAlthough half of my Nintendo computers run Linux too.
XSF Discussion - 2018-01-11