XSF Discussion - 2018-01-12

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01:26:48 pep. > going by this page: http://search.wensley.org.uk/chat/ > do rooms about clients count? :) > if not, IT-MSE probbaly counts, whatever that is > GNU/Linux is second (30) This is sad :(
01:31:09 pep. OTOH, I would probably bridge my room to IRC if is I had a room here for some random project
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07:43:25 zinid moparisthebest, now I can refer to your article! :D https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/blob/master/ejabberd.yml.example#L191
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09:23:15 edhelas https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/arie@movim.eu/0d590c16-75f9-4683-835b-c4003dcebc44
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09:36:51 zinid yeah
09:37:17 zinid I also wonder why Signal is considered more secure than Whatsapp?
09:37:29 zinid same proprietary silo
09:37:38 mathieui hm no?
09:37:44 mathieui signal isn’t controled by facebook
09:37:49 zinid and?
09:38:09 mathieui and iirc the server can do less things in signal
09:38:39 zinid like requesting private key?
09:39:18 Ge0rG Signal is controlled by moxie, who used to be an anarchist crypto nerd before he got bought.
09:39:38 zinid so this is a question of trust? which is very personal
09:39:44 zinid for example, why would I trust moxie?
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09:46:21 edhelas don't
09:46:30 edhelas but we all know the position of moxie on federation/decentralisation
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09:49:53 daniel Ge0rG: are anarchist crypto nerds those assassination market people?
09:50:17 daniel All pretty legit and trustworthy
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10:08:36 Ge0rG daniel: I'm pretty sure there are different sub-groups.
10:09:18 zinid edhelas, "all"? I knew about moxie from this conference (or conversations@, don't remember), I know jack shit about moxie actually 🙂
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10:50:05 edhelas Holger zinid should we clarify 0060 for this one ? https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2129
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10:51:05 zinid edhelas, I'm no pubsub expert, sorry, I barely can understand the problem
10:53:41 Holger Yes this should be clarified if you ask me.
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10:59:20 MattJ I don't see what there is to clarify
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10:59:52 MattJ Someone might think that deleting their account allows their pubsub nodes to be modified by others?
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11:02:57 Holger MattJ: Both you and me have write access to a node. Does that mean you can override items published by me?
11:03:13 Holger MattJ: That's not clear (to me) from reading 0060. See that issue.
11:03:30 MattJ Ok, I see
11:03:39 MattJ It didn't see clear to me that that's what the issue was about
11:03:48 Zash Item ownership?
11:04:38 MattJ Opens a can of worms
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11:05:44 zinid there is a similar problem with MUCs (if I understand it correctly): account deletion doesn't trigger deletion of ownership in remote MUCs
11:05:59 zinid so you can re-register the account and become an owner 😉
11:06:51 Holger Yeah. Or just become member of a members-only group.
11:07:22 Ge0rG Now I can't delete accounts any more? I need to convert them all into tombstones?
11:07:47 MattJ Ge0rG, welcome to federation
11:07:57 zinid a client probably needs to clean up everything carefully, but that's PITA
11:08:17 Ge0rG zinid: you can't have a client clean up everything if you ban a user.
11:08:19 MattJ That's not always feasible
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11:08:41 Ge0rG Also not all clients of a user know their remote MUC ownerships
11:08:44 Kev More or less you can never delete accounts safely in XMPP, you must always tombstone.
11:08:57 Kev At least for federated systems you don't control.
11:09:10 zinid yeah, so just don't delete your account 🙂
11:09:16 Holger Anyway those are separate problems. The user who created that ejabberd issue is indeed fighting with deleted accounts (and I see the problem), but he stumbled over that PubSub question which is just as unclear if the accounts in question still exist.
11:09:17 zinid however, server admins can do that 🙂
11:12:40 Holger I clearly see the use case for giving multiple JIDs write access to a node without allowing them to delete/override each others items. So if 0060 doesn't make this possible that's bad.
11:13:08 Holger I think this should be the default behavior, just needs some clarification.
11:13:08 intosi Holger: you mean publish-only?
11:13:26 Holger If there's also a use case for allowing to delete/override each others items then 0060 needs additional magic.
11:13:39 intosi Although that precludes reading items.
11:13:50 Holger intosi: You're always able to edit/delete items you published yourself.
11:14:12 Holger (Which can also be a problem.)
11:14:43 Holger This is just about messing with stuff published by others.
11:15:34 Ge0rG That sounds like an Enterprise Feature.
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11:21:48 Holger I think people like goffi and edhelas are having a hard time trying to use 0060 for very basic features ...
11:22:29 edhelas just a bit :-)
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12:17:47 MattJ It's because XEP-0060 is too generic
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12:18:12 MattJ Which means for most practical applications, it doesn't suffice, or has to be made more complex
12:18:17 waqas It lacks proper turning completeness though…
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12:24:42 Zash Small change to the notification transformation settings so you can make it send iq stanzas, and then do pubsub that way
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15:25:50 Ge0rG > And federation is possible over XMPP with Signal: https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/ Heh. I'm pretty sure that link conveys the absolute opposite of the stated message.
15:26:13 Zash Wait what
15:26:24 Ge0rG From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16127570
15:26:27 Zash XMPP over Signal?? Why would you even
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15:30:36 daniel I by the love how their method for 'private contact discovery' is basically we just send everything to an Intel black box because Intel knows their shit, right
15:31:13 daniel But that's unrelated to random guy on HN not knowing the fuck he is talking about
15:31:32 Ge0rG Yeah.
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15:32:42 Ge0rG Recently I had some time on my hands and read through moxie's old stories, about train riding through the US and home squatting. And that's so absolutely different from the "stop calling your product like our product" moxie, it's hard to grasp
15:32:56 Ge0rG The ones under https://moxie.org/stories.html
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15:34:26 Zash "This is your brain. This is your brain on capitalism."
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15:35:34 daniel Isn't there one where he was almost raped while hitch hiking or something?
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15:35:48 daniel I think I read those stories some years ago as well
15:36:10 Ge0rG daniel: yeah, and he almost died while sailing. And some others.
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16:10:42 moparisthebest zinid: ah excellent (about ejabberd config pointer)
16:11:18 moparisthebest On a related note, does ejabberd TLS support SNI for cert selection?
16:13:30 Holger moparisthebest: Sure, zinid added that ages ago.
16:13:39 Holger (Last month IIRC.)
16:14:20 moparisthebest Nice
16:15:05 Zash Model changes :/
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16:18:22 moparisthebest SNI is shockingly absent outside https it seems, I had to add it to 2 IRC clients and K-9 mail on Android when I started this whole multiplexing business
16:18:50 moparisthebest It's been around for what 14 years at this point?
16:19:22 Zash Does anything but HTTPS actually need it?
16:19:39 Holger IRC has no STARTTLS I guess :-)
16:19:50 Holger But yes mail doesn't need it.
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16:20:45 Zash For weird reasons tho
16:20:46 moparisthebest everything that uses TLS really
16:21:02 moparisthebest imap and smtp over TLS need it
16:21:30 moparisthebest not STARTTLS, but TLS that is
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16:23:19 moparisthebest the funny thing is, as IPv4 gets harder and harder to get, SNI will become more and more needed by everything
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16:23:47 moparisthebest and then as IPv4 is replaced by IPv6, SNI will no longer be needed at all essentially 🙂
16:25:43 Holger moparisthebest: Sure if you don't use the alternative solution available for email, then you need it :-)
16:26:15 moparisthebest starttls should just die everywhere
16:26:22 Zash nooooooo
16:26:26 moparisthebest I think there is even such an RFC for all the email protocols right?
16:26:44 Zash Pretty sure all email protocols have starttls
16:27:26 Zash Pretty sure I've never seen SMTP over TLS
16:27:46 moparisthebest all of them have starttls options and direct-tls options, and an old RFC deprecated direct-tls, and a new one I think re-instates it and deprecates starttls
16:27:56 moparisthebest over port 465 is the standard for that Zash
16:28:08 moparisthebest for client submission port over direct tls
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16:28:55 Zash Never seen or heard about anyone ever using that
16:30:24 moparisthebest yea the standard smtp ports are 25 (for s2s you could say), 587 for submission (starttls), and 465 for smtps (direct tls), 465 pre-dated 587 and then was deprecated and assigned to some protocol no one uses...
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16:32:28 Holger Zash: We've been offering SMTPS and IMAPS next to STARTTLS for ages and I've seen many other providers doing so.
16:32:57 moparisthebest found it https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-uta-email-deep/
16:33:12 moparisthebest Cleartext Considered Obsolete: Use of TLS for Email Submission and Access
16:33:20 moparisthebest ie starttls must die
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16:35:11 moparisthebest on an XMPP related note, they chose the terminology 'Implicit TLS' vs what we chose of 'Direct TLS' so it might make sense to update 368 that way
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16:36:09 mathieui yay, finally got a vacation to attend the summit
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16:39:24 moparisthebest ha they chose _submissions._tcp vs my initial preference of _submission._tls too
16:39:30 Ge0rG Anyone seen stpeter recently?
16:39:48 Ge0rG moparisthebest: is the last "s" for "secure" or for plural?
16:40:22 moparisthebest same as xmpps, secure
16:40:32 moparisthebest or ssl ? 😛
16:40:53 Ge0rG ss-what?
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16:42:05 moparisthebest it's not like anyone is going to change https to httpt
16:42:34 Ge0rG did you mean: htttp? :P
16:42:49 Zash htls://
16:44:28 moparisthebest hpkp:// where every site has a pinned public key? now that's something I could get behind
16:44:59 Zash ipfs?
16:45:11 Ge0rG moparisthebest: and the host part is replaced by the key fingerprint. key fingerprint dot onion.
16:45:37 moparisthebest more like cjdns
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22:18:26 Link Mauve “17:33:12 moparisthebest> Cleartext Considered Obsolete: Use of TLS for Email Submission and Access 17:33:20 moparisthebest> ie starttls must die”, you’ve said that a few times already, but that’s plain wrong, there is nothing more plaintext in StartTLS than in legacy TLS in XMPP.
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22:44:26 moparisthebest Link Mauve: but then why keep it
22:45:27 Link Mauve Because a huge lot of software and deployments support it, and because there is no downside.
22:46:04 Link Mauve There is a downside to the change though.
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22:46:36 Zash Changing security stuff for what amounts to a small round trip optimization is kinda scary.
22:46:52 Zash And the thing about getting through firewalls will just further that arms race
22:46:55 moparisthebest Way more software supports direct TLS
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22:47:30 Zash More popular != better
22:47:52 moparisthebest But in this case it does
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22:50:39 Link Mauve moparisthebest, I just had a look at our server, we have a 1:10 ratio of users of legacy TLS vs. StartTLS.
22:51:18 moparisthebest Link Mauve: do you have xep368 DNS records, and what preference order
22:51:35 Link Mauve Yes, and same as the normal one.
22:52:13 moparisthebest Wait same? What is the weight of each then
22:52:51 Link Mauve Ah no, 8 0 for _xmpp-client and 10 0 for _xmpps-client.
22:53:00 Link Mauve I remembered wrong.
22:53:20 moparisthebest Ah ok well that's why then
22:53:25 Link Mauve You can dig _xmpps?-client._tcp.jabberfr.org.
22:53:36 moparisthebest You should test with them switched
22:55:10 Link Mauve But why? I thought the only reason to have those was to bypass firewalls that intercept the plain text version and only allow TLS-looking ones.
22:55:39 Link Mauve If a client fails to connect in StartTLS, but supports legacy TLS, it will just check again once the connection failed.
22:55:51 Zash I thought the primary reason was to get through corporate firewalls that only allow http/https
22:55:57 Link Mauve Yeah.
22:56:13 Link Mauve That’s the only reason we have legacy TLS in the first place.
22:56:32 Link Mauve We also have XEP-0156 deployed, which is another big one for those.
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23:02:38 moparisthebest Isn't 368 way easier and more efficient than 156
23:02:57 moparisthebest If getting around firewalls is your goal that is
23:03:18 Link Mauve Until your firewall starts blocking anything which doesn’t announce it is HTTP.
23:03:52 moparisthebest Bottom line though if xmpp was being designed today do you doubt it would only support direct TLS?
23:03:58 Link Mauve Because 0156 describes how to use this very HTTP everyone loves so much.
23:03:59 Zash Weren't you the one who said "we'll still have websockets"?
23:04:35 Link Mauve moparisthebest, that doesn’t matter, it has been invented twenty years ago, you can’t erase that.
23:04:57 moparisthebest But you can move towards the ideal situation
23:05:13 Link Mauve It’s not more ideal than the rest.
23:05:31 moparisthebest If you are redesigning other parts might as well improve it all
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23:07:48 Zash I don't see how moving host and service multiplexing around the layers is an improvement.
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23:08:11 moparisthebest Link Mauve: wait you said 10% of your users are using the xep368 srv record? That seems huge if it's a lower priority
23:08:57 Zash Link Mauve: Is it set up so you can detect connections that ignored or failed to get SRV records?
23:09:10 Zash Like yax.im is, iirc.
23:09:11 Link Mauve Zash, yes.
23:09:26 Zash And, iirc, also produces depressing numbers.
23:10:17 Zash Like how 90% of all users on a thing I used to run were using DIGEST-MD5 and the rest were using PLAIN
23:10:52 moparisthebest That seems like a huge number of users that otherwise wouldn't be able to connect
23:11:03 edhelas so looks like Movim is having a "okay" working solution to do video-conferencing with pure WebRTC and Jingle :)
23:11:16 moparisthebest Also considering only a couple clients support it
23:11:34 Link Mauve moparisthebest, or plain ignore the settings and connect to 5223 anyway.
23:11:53 Zash or got SRV sorting wrong
23:12:35 la|r|ma edhelas, did you try out cross-browser?
23:12:36 moparisthebest Conversations does it right mixing and all, it would connect to 5222 if it could
23:12:48 edhelas yup, working between chrome and firefox
23:13:01 edhelas disabled on mobile for now
23:13:18 moparisthebest edhelas: would be great to get interop working with conversations too :)
23:13:40 edhelas ping daniel :3
23:13:43 la|r|ma edhelas: what about safari? (I worked with WebRTC for another project and it sucks to get it cross-browser)
23:13:48 moparisthebest Did that xep work as is or did you find rough edges?
23:13:55 edhelas I don't know if there's a WebRTC implementation in Java for Android
23:14:10 edhelas la|r|ma don't know, don't have Macs at home :D
23:14:24 la|r|ma you can use chromes libwebrtc on android
23:14:26 moparisthebest edhelas: actually a conversations fork has webrtc support
23:14:32 edhelas moparisthebest well I basically had everything in the XEPs to do the conversion between SDP and Jingle
23:14:37 moparisthebest Just signaling doesn't use xmpp
23:14:56 edhelas https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/lib/SDPtoJingle.php
23:15:15 moparisthebest So take some code from there, implement signaling part with jingle, done
23:15:38 la|r|ma moparisthebest, which fork?
23:16:10 moparisthebest la|r|ma: uuuhhhhh author responded in that issue
23:16:26 moparisthebest Spreedbox or something?
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23:17:00 Link Mauve edhelas, I’d really like to interoperate between the desktop and the web, I just sent an email to the Jitsi guys about that.
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23:18:01 edhelas sure, would love to try interroperability with Jitsi, and why not Dino one day :)
23:19:31 edhelas moparisthebest I've also anotated the XEP numbers in the file :)
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23:20:40 la|r|ma I build a PoC for Jingle with Dino half a year back (only basic unencrypted audio via ice-udp)
23:21:52 edhelas I'm really impatient to show all those nice features interroperable between Dino, Conversations, Movim and others :)
23:22:09 edhelas SàT also for the social part
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23:37:44 moparisthebest Would that part of movim work with prosody?
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23:38:53 edhelas eheh, nothing relies on the servers :D
23:38:58 edhelas it's a pure client implementation
23:39:23 edhelas well I still have to implement TURN/STUN if the XMPP server offers it
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23:50:00 moparisthebest edhelas: will I meant movim in general
23:50:14 edhelas not yet
23:50:20 edhelas still waiting for proper pubsub support
23:50:20 moparisthebest I know it needs pep stuff prosody doesn't have yet
23:50:40 moparisthebest But does plain chat and that webrtc stuff work
23:50:53 edhelas yup
23:51:25 moparisthebest I'll have to try it :)
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