flohello is there a way to find out the total amount of active xmpp users worldwide? I know about the prosody monitor https://network.trashserver.net/ but I would like to know if there is any estimation of the deep net...
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floMattj could you help with that question?
floMattJ
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moparisthebestIt'd be really hard to do flo , could maybe stalk cert transparency logs until Feb 28th and look for the number of XMPP servers then multiply by a few for users or something
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ZashYou can guesstimate the number of servers. Users are harder.
flomoparisthebest "Any list of XMPP servers, clients or libraries will, due to the dynamic and evolving nature of the XMPP market, be out of date almost as soon as it’s published." Maybe it would be worth a study to ask the biggest players for numbers.
ZashGuess a distribution curve and multiply by the number of guesstimated servers
moparisthebestYea that will tell you how many users are on those servers
ZashThere are things like the Debian popcon and such that can provide some numbers
moparisthebestIf you want to try the cert transparency logs though you better do it quick the free lunch ends Feb 28th
Zashwaitwhat
moparisthebestZash: that's the go live date for wildcard certs at letsencrypt
moparisthebestToday every xmpp domain you get a cert for is in the log, when *. example.org is issued you just have to guess
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ZashBut certs aren't xmpp-specific in any way
moparisthebestBut a simple DNS query to check
moparisthebestWith any of the certstream projects
Zashyou mean srv records? those aren't required?
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Zashmight as well go for one of those entire internet port scans
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moparisthebestYes srv and or connecting to 5222 you'd catch a good number
moparisthebestCan't tell how many domains though, and useless for ipv6
floYou would catch whatsapp on port 5222 too... I'm more interested in the numbers of alternative xmpp clients
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moparisthebestflo: oh well for that just search GitHub
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flomoparisthebest how does github tell me something about the userbase of lets say conversations?
moparisthebestflo: sorry what are you after, number of users, number of clients, or numbers of users per client?
moparisthebestBecause those are all different things
flowell users would be the most interesting thing, but the hardest to find out...
flojust look at the prosody monitor, something is still better than nothing
moparisthebestIs this is what passes for shocking news
moparisthebest"Twitter has... What you send to Twitter"
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moparisthebestThen XMPP has no chance on the "it's better for privacy" front
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zinidFor the majority it is not better, everyone supports e2ee already
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Alexlots of SPAM again the last 2 days :(
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edhelasI'm planning to move to Matrix, less spam there
jonaswhttp://www.managingcommunities.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/not-sure-if-trolling.jpg "not sure if trolling or being serious"
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moparisthebestwell zinid privacy and e2ee overlap a bit but it's not the whole story, no commercial walled gardens offer the kind of privacy xmpp does
moparisthebestmy point was if the average user is surprised that twitter has what they send to twitter, they have no concept of the term privacy and selling xmpp to them based on that is impossible
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moparisthebestthe less nice way to put it is you'd have to sell xmpp to those morons by saying it has prettier stickers
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KevIt's hard to imagine why we'd have a hard time selling XMPP to anyone, if we consider people who like prettiness to be morons.
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vanitasvitaeMy Grandmother recently got an iPad for christmas. She had no experience with computers before and hasn't even used a typewriter once in her life (neither have I but thats not the point :D).
I did not even think about installing her an XMPP client, because there is *no* simple to use client that I know of (let alone for iOS).
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KevI kinda think Swift is as simple as it can sensibly be, for the very basic cases, but certainly the more complex stuff isn't as straightforward as it could be.
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moparisthebestwell conversations is simple and pretty, but if you are trying to sell it to someone over whatsapp, I think all I can come up with immediatly is 'privacy' and for morons who are surprised twitter has what they send them, that's a non-argument
vanitasvitaeOriginally my brother installed her Facetime, but then she couldn't call me, so I installed her Wire instead. Even Wires interface is too complicated (too many buttons and thingies to accidentally tap on). In the end we stayed with Wire, but my brother put the ipad in "guided access" (he basically blocked away many buttons and prevented wire from being closed).
vanitasvitaeI havent used swift, so I cannot tell, but conversations is certainly *not* easy to use unfortunately
vanitasvitaeat least in my opinion.
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moparisthebestwhy not? my 5yo uses it to message grandma
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moparisthebestshe can't even fully read, just simple words
KevSwift's certainly straightforward enough for my parents, but they can use a web browser and the such too, so that's not as extreme.
KevCompared with relatives who're unable to work a phone.
danielProbably depends on the grandma. I wasn't able to teach my grandma to use a feature phone
vanitasvitaemoparisthebest, fair enough, most features of conversations are hidden away in menus, so mistake clicks are not made so easily
danielBut then again I can't use Instagram
vanitasvitaestill, no encryption by default (I know we are getting there), and for example the green indicator thing doubling up as status indicator (if configured so) and image send button is confusing for starters
danielAnd I don't really want to learn it either because that's not my generation
KevYou're too young to instagram?
moparisthebestthose users don't need to worry about status ?
moparisthebest(no one really *needs* to from conversations honestly)
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KevNot that I think instagram's the most enriching thing in the world, but ... yeah.
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danielIt has a very confusing interface...
vanitasvitaemoparisthebest, sure I'm nitpicking here. My point is, that XMPP could still be *even* simpler.
danielKev: I was thinking I'm too old? But maybe I'm too young...
moparisthebestvanitasvitae, does conversations even show status without fiddling in advanced options? I didn't think it did
Kevdaniel: I think you're younger than me, and a lot of my friends use it (and going down from my age to 25 or so - I don't have many friends below that).
vanitasvitaesure it doesn't point taken :)
KevBut I think we might be digressing :)
KevAs an aside, I think status needs to be seriously rethought and simplified at the protocol level - at least by convention.
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danielKev: maybe it's different in the UK? I dont know a single person who actually uses it on a regular basis. I always assumed it was a generation thing. But maybe it's a culture thing
vanitasvitaemoparisthebest, some time ago I installed conversations on my fathers phone. It was a hassle to explain OMEMO fingerprints to him.
KevIt could be regional. Back in the day, whether you were MSN/ICQ/Y! etc. was heavily influenced by region.
moparisthebestoh I agree there vanitasvitae , I installed conversations on my mom's phone , trusted my fingerprints, and didn't mention omemo :)
Kevvanitasvitae: I'm not convinced that e2e for all is actually the right thing to do.
KevBecause in order for e2e to be meaningful there are some slightly tricky things that you *have* to deal with, or else have a central entity with too much control.
danielvanitasvitae: why did you even try to? Leave it in BTBV mode and don't bother with verification
moparisthebestmy 5yo doesn't know about omemo either, it just works
vanitasvitaeTry to explain him, that some times (when I reinstalled conversations), the fingerprint would change, and what that means
vanitasvitaedaniel, that was back, when BTBV didnt exist
vanitasvitaeI'm a long time user lol
Link Mauvedaniel, how do you enable that btw?
moparisthebestI am convinced XMPP is the *best* (or only) choice for safely creating children's accounts :) https://burtrum.org/kids_firewall.pfw.txt
vanitasvitaeLink Mauve, just dont scan somebodies fingerprint :D
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Link MauveOk, but you still have to select it in the dropdown (?) menu, right?
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vanitasvitaeI think no
vanitasvitaebut daniel is probably the better one to ask :D
moparisthebestif you mean turn omemo on, yes you still have to do that
moparisthebest(until feb or something? he has a plan to make it default)
danielLink Mauve: enable BTBV? That's enabled by default. You can disable it in the expert settings
Link MauveOk, my parents definitely didn’t do that. :)
Link MauveI just enabled OMEMO for them between them and with my sister, without saying anything special about it.
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jonaswI disabled OMEMO everywhere because the interop with non-OMEMO clients on the same account is terrible.
jonasw(and the pidgin-omemo-plugins mess my pidgin up badly, for some reason)
Link MauveI didn’t enable it with me, because I don’t use it. :p
Link MauveBut they all use Conversations, and some use Dino, so that’s fine.
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vanitasvitaeI would switch from gajim to dino as soon as they implement tray icon support, so that the app keeps running in the background
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moparisthebestha I feel like that's all that is discussed in the dino muc nowadays
moparisthebestthe 'one true DE Gnome' dropped systray support so all other DEs should drop it, or something
moparisthebestI disagree, but meh
SamWhitedI don't think it was a GNOME thing, I think the Freedesktop spec dropped it, IIRC
SamWhitedGNOME and many other DEs follow that
moparisthebestgnome is the only one I know of without a systray
SamWhitedIt moves faster than others, yes
moparisthebestalso iirc Link Mauve said it won't work in wayland either
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, my DE also doesn’t have a systray.
Link MauveI haven’t had one even when I was still on X11.
mathieuiI don’t have a systray either
SamWhitedNeither does mine (also on X11), although that might not matter much since I'm in a weird MATE/i3 mix and it's pretty heavily customized
Link Mauvemoparisthebest, KDE and Unity were the ones who wrote a specification (hosted at fd.o) to support systray on non-X11, but with Unity moving to GNOME I’m not sure where that went.
moparisthebestleave my KDE alone kthx :P
Link MauveHmm?
moparisthebestI have been meaning to try something tiling though, maybe i3
moparisthebest(I was just joking around, that I want to keep my systray in KDE)
SamWhitedI like i3 a lot, but I've also heard good things about "awesome" (I think that's what it's called)
SamWhitedBut i3 is firmly in the "good enough" category for me, so I haven't tried anything else
moparisthebestthat's how I am with KDE, started with it in 2005ish and just could never switch to anything else
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Link Mauve“20:31:17 moparisthebest> (I was just joking around, that I want to keep my systray in KDE)”, if you read what I said again, that’s exactly what I said they are doing. :p
SouLmoparisthebest, +1
jonaswSamWhited, if you like i3, awesome isn’t for you :)
jonasw(I say that as a long-time awesome user who switched to i3)
jonasw(because i3 had the single feature I always missed from awesome)
SouLWhich is? :)
jonaswSouL, more freely tiling windows. awesome has rather fixed layouts
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ZashHaving workspaces switchable independencly on each monitor is pretty nice
jonaswZash, yeah, that too
SamWhitedMy only real problem with i3 is that I haven't found a good way to swap easily between the 1080p screen on my laptop and a 4k external monitor
SamWhited(although luckily the only external monitor I use right now is also 1080p, so it stopped being a problem)
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ZashSwap how?
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SamWhitedpluging in a 4k monitor everything on it is tiny, if I make it bigger when I unplug it the bar eats half my screen
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jonaswhm, I have a similar issue with my 3k notebook screen and the 19 inch 1280×1024 external one. I use a font which is rather readable even on small sizes (one of those <http://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/>)
XSF Discussion - 2018-01-16