yeah, this means that we will have two standards now, the XMPP-Pubsub one and the Web-ActivityPub one
zinid
what a mess, we need another one, unique!
zinid
oh wait...
Zash
For what? Do they even cover the same things?
edhelas
personally I was explaining the advantages of building a social-feed standard on Internet protocols and not only Web ones
edhelas
for several years now
edhelas
because building on top of HTTP brings maybe lots of advantages (including the "simplicity at first")
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edhelas
but also drawback (overhead, scalability…)
edhelas
this is only for the protocol layer, functionnality wise there's lots of differences
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zinid
> The W3C has allowed DRM to move forward on the web
All you need to know about W3C
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goffi
activity pub is pushed by web based networks such as Diaspora or Mastodon which are the most famous ones even if both are youger than XMPP based ones. While I'm sad that they never tried to talk to us or follow what we have done, at least it's standardized and it should be easy to communicate with them.
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SouL
I shared with you guys that link from the fsf because I felt sad about that. I haven't heard anything about considering XMPP for that standard. And what worries me now is, people involved in ActivityPub, did even know XMPP? I wonder if XMPP didn't make it because people don't know what great things can you have with XMPP.
SouL
I know that we have still a lot of work to do in that regard, but for me seems like a loss in our side :/
SouL
Not meaning that we have to give up or anything, of course!
zinid
> did even know XMPP?
I think the problem is NIH, not ignorance
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SouL
Yeah, could be...
goffi
I think you can find easily what we have done after a quick search on any search engine.
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goffi
SouL: after nearly 10 years, I'm not going to give up, trust me ;)
goffi
even if FOSS community is mostly ignoring us
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edhelas
SouL I already talked several times with those guys, also proposed to work with them (and the XSF then)
edhelas
the thing is that we're not living in the same world, those guy are basically talking about synchronising articles and publications between nodes using HTTP and JSON, because they always done that (they're from the Web)
edhelas
which is a bit the opposite than us conceptualy wise
zinid
let's move XMPP to JSON
edhelas
there's always the proposal "yeah but we can build a transport/bridge" but we all know how bad it will be
edhelas
the big difference is that for Pubsub, it's a piece of XMPP, so we are offering way more than just publication synchronisation
edhelas
basically Diaspora is trying for years to add chat features to the social network, they are actually trying to use XMPP
edhelas
but because of their architecture it's really difficult
pep.
zinid: {xep 295} o/
Bunneh
zinid: JSON Encodings for XMPP (Humorous, Active, 2011-04-01)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0295.html
edhelas
with Movim for example, creating links/features between the social part (Pubsub/Microblog) and the Chat part (MUC…) it's way more easier
edhelas
and everything is coming from the same stream, use the same protocol
zinid
pep., yeah, I know about that one
zinid
honestly, I think JSON is doomed as well, just like XML
Zash
Everything is doomed
Zash
Let's sing the doom song!
edhelas
even if it can be a mess between all the XEPs and their related features, it's still way more coherent in the end
zinid
after webassembly is widely adopted, javascript will start losing position along with json
zinid
so people don't learn
zinid
we have a great example with stuck XML: xmpp
zinid
then we will have examples with json
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Ge0rG
I❤JSON. `{"secure":true,"secure":false}`
edhelasfeels like talking in the wind
Ge0rG
All of IT is doomed. Let's become potato farmers!
Zash
Ge0rG: YES!
Ge0rG
Oh wait, farming is infested with Bad IT as well... https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware
zinid
potato is not doomed?
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goffi
even our CPUs are doomed anyway
Ge0rG
goffi: it's not the CPUs, it's the assumption that you can share your CPU between code that belongs to you and code that belongs to somebody else.
Ge0rG
and by the latter I mean all of the web and cloud and probably some other things.
Holger
Will we be competing with the potatoe thing? Zash invents a simple and popular way to grow potatoes, though only a single potatoe at a time? Kev won't show anyone how he does it but try to sell the potatoes to the military? zinid will note how all your potatoe taste like utter crap and will try to grow millions in parallel?
zinid
Holger, sounds doomy
Ge0rG
That analogy has gone too far.
Holger
Ge0rG: And I didn't even start with the client potatoes!
Ge0rG
Holger: maybe those are peaches instead?
zinid
"peaches"
zinid
there is a single "maybe peach", others are "rotten peaches"
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Ge0rG
Those are called lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
Holger
Whatever they are, they will only be eaten by other farmers.
SouLis lost now.
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Holger
Normal people will just stick to French fries.
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vanitasvitae
Has anyone tried to make a potatoe battery powered xmpp client/server?
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pep.
"xsf@muc.xmpp.org/@Alacer: 403 - modify: Messages from strangers are rejected" @Alacer you might want to fix this
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pep.
I didn't send any message to you
Zash
I also got that
Zash
Bork?
Ge0rG
Me too!
SouL
Me too
SouL
It replied my messsages sent here
SouL
and at dino's MUC too
zinid
http://upload.zinid.ru/muc-errors.png
zinid
LOL :)
Zash
Hm, things I said... MUC bug?
zinid
Zash, no
SouL
That's what I'm saying, I got my messages back :)
zinid
Zash, the Alacer is not joined the room, but the room doesn't know this and continues to send messages, those are rejected by mod_block_stranges (because outgoing presence is lacking)
Zash
Appearing as PMs from @Alacer
Zash
Augh what
zinid
yes, Alacer has mod_block_strangers enabled on his server
zinid
at least this is my theory
pep.
zinid, you might want to give a try to poezio's dark theme btw :p
zinid
pep., nah thanks, I still need my eyes
Ge0rG
mod_block_strangers blocking type=groupchat must've been an awesome idea.
Ge0rG
Probably as good as rejecting type=error.
Ge0rG
<message from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/@Alacer" to="georg@yax.im/poezio" type="error" xml:lang="en" id="999020f9-896b-49fb-8a2f-e820b3dab185-3B48E"><inactive xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/chatstates" /><delay xmlns="urn:xmpp:delay" stamp="2018-01-24T09:41:26.596476Z" from="jabber.at">Resent</delay><error type="modify" code="403"><policy-violation xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" /><text xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" xml:lang="en">Messages from strangers are rejected</text></error><body>Those are called lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons</body></message>
Ge0rG
zinid: you are right, "Messages from strangers are rejected"
zinid
yeah, and poezio renders them in a strange way
zinid
at least ejabberd is not involved here, so I'm clean :D
zinid
this time
zinid
ah, Alacer might be using ejabberd with mod_block_strangers
zinid
damn
zinid
Ge0rG, if we don't block groupchat, spammers can set type='groupchat' to send spam
zinid
and maybe some clients will render this
Holger
Yes it's not obvious to me that we wouldn't want to block groupchat.
Holger
Maybe not return an error for groupchat? But that's not obvious to me either.
Zash
Shouldn't Prosody kick them out when receiving an error?
zinid
yeah
zinid
another weirdness is why Alacer's server didn't send presence-unavailable to the conference
zinid
because the server is clearly available and sends stanzas
zinid
ah, oh, just noticed it, the server is jabber.at
Holger
The errors are returned to full JIDs, not to the bare MUC JID. Should the MUC service kick him nevertheless?
Holger
ejabberd didn't kick him either, I got the same error PMs in the Conversations and ejabberd MUCs.
zinid
really weird
Ge0rG
Holger: no, errors to full-JID are PM errors
Ge0rG
Holger: so it's useful to pass them on
Ge0rG
Maybe mod_block_strangers should error to the bare JID instead?
Holger
So this is all expected.
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Holger
Hmmm.
zinid
Ge0rG, indeed, that's why they are rendered in a separate window of poezio, hehe
Holger
Or only return error to bare JID in case of groupchat?
Ge0rG
Holger: in case of groupchat, it should track directed presence and not consider those as "strangers"
Holger
It does.
zinid
Ge0rG, it does, I think there was some connection error or something and presence-unavailable has lost
Holger
Right.
Ge0rG
Then you need to send errors before processing the presence-unavailable?
zinid
what?
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Ge0rG
It looks like the session collapsed.
zinid
ah, you mean in mod_block_strangers
Ge0rG
Yes
Holger
It took less than a day for this to happen after the jabber.at upgrade. I wonder how much we'll spam people this way. \o/
Ge0rG
XMPP, where the corner cases have corner cases.
Holger
mod_block_mod_block_stranger_errors
Ge0rG
What I need now is mod_block_siwssjabber.
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Ge0rG
http://web.swissjabber.ch/ - "Apache2 Ubuntu Default Page"
That's how a well-maintained XMPP server looks like.
zinid
Ge0rG, you're too picky
Ge0rG
zinid: I prefer the term discerning :P
zinid
sorry, my dictionary is lacking this term
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edhelas
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16222478 3. 2. 1. GO :D
zinid
Nice advertisement, but no
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edhelas
> AFAIK XMPP is more geared towards IM than microblogging and it's very complex and difficult to get right due to many extensions.
zinid
And webshit is so much simpler, yeah
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edhelas
:D
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jonasw
I really like the idea of an entry-point XEP for the different "profiles" of XMPP
jonasw
somewhat like the compliance suites
jonasw
I still need to read through the posts on-list
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Ge0rG
jonasw: aren't you the new compliance suite author? Make them better! 😀
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Dave Cridland
jonasw, You can apply #557 and close #556 and #555, by the way. I'll get a vote started, at least, on #576 and #559. That's all I see there for Council's action for now, is that right?
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mathieui
https://lwn.net/Articles/741218/ I missed this apparently
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edhelas
https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/ down ?
mathieui, I will read the article, thanks for sharing.
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zinid
Oh, xmpp agents in the thread
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goffi
zinid: yes me ;)
zinid
goffi: there is yet another one
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SamWhited
> and it's definitely not complicated
I feel like this is untrue. While I'm all for advocating XMPP, we need to acknowledge that we have a complexity problem and not tell people things like this (which will only make them dislike it even more when they try it and can't figure it out because it actually is complicated)
</two-cents>
pep.
zinid, me
pep.
and jcbrand
zinid
Yeah, all criticism is so typical
pep.
zinid, I think SamWhited was replying to goffi?
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zinid
pep.: Not sure who replied to whom 😁
Kev
I don't think there's any question that XMPP is complicated. There is a question about whether it's more complicated than it needs to be, although I don't think we're doing too badly on that front, for what we're providing.
Ge0rG
So some people claim the Blockchain is a solution to Zooko's Triange. Is that true?
Kev
If you list out all the things XMPP does and ask "Is it complicated to write a system that does X?" the answer is 'yes', whether you use XMPP or not.
goffi
SamWhited: what do you find complicated ? The basis is just 3 messages, and feature are well separated thanks to namespaces. Of course some features are complicated (Jingle), but it's normal for this kind of feature, and as Kev said, I don't think it's more complicated than needed (I specified for a decentralized network in my comment).
goffi
s/3 messages/3 stanza/
zinid
Kev: yes, it's to complicated for what it does, mostly due to priorities and resource routing, round trips, inconsistency with mam and stream management (this should be done by a single replication mechanism)
zinid
*too
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goffi
priorities is a legacy feature that should be removed IMHO
goffi
and I would appreciate mandatory unique ids on message too, but it's hard to grow a standard like XMPP without this kind of little annoyances
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Ge0rG
I'd kill for XMPP with GUID message IDs and MAM-Subscription-instead-of-Carbons
zinid
can't we redesign everything with with keeping some very basic compatiblity (probably on server-side gateways)?
Ge0rG
I'd just define GUID message IDs as mandatory and require all clients to be patched OR ELSE.
Ge0rG
But I'm pretty sure there will be some Council opposition.
Kev
It's slightly more complicated than that in the face of malicious clients, I suspect.
Ge0rG
Kev: I'm sure we can sort out that by restricting the scope to a single user's clients.
Kev
That would, sadly, break some of the things I want to do with GUID messages.
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Kev
Which includes uncontroversial things like message URIs :)
Ge0rG
I could arrange with server-generated GUIDs, but then you'd say "but malicious servers"
Kev
I think we need to think through these things
Kev
Because message URIs (or similar) are a thing we could really do with.
zinid
not sure how GUID will help
Ge0rG
I'm not asking for much. All I want is to associate MUC reflections to what I sent and to properly merge history resyncs.
zinid
I'm thinking about monotonically increasing ids forming version vectors, used for database replication
Ge0rG
zinid: but then you can see how many messages I sent!
zinid
Ge0rG, true
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Ge0rG
`SELECT _id FROM chats WHERE jid=? AND from_me=1 AND (message_id=? OR body=?) AND _id >= ?` - this just doesn't cut it.
Kev
Especially not if the server is rewriting message bodies.
Ge0rG
And it breaks on multi-line messages in IRC transports.
zinid
oh yes, IRC transports are very important, we cannot break them
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Ge0rG
Kev: that wouldn't be a problem if MUC servers wouldn't rewrite message IDs.