XSF Discussion - 2018-01-24

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  44. SouL https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/victory-for-libre-networks-activitypub-is-now-a-w3c-recommended-standard
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  75. edhelas yeah, this means that we will have two standards now, the XMPP-Pubsub one and the Web-ActivityPub one
  76. zinid what a mess, we need another one, unique!
  77. zinid oh wait...
  78. Zash For what? Do they even cover the same things?
  79. edhelas personally I was explaining the advantages of building a social-feed standard on Internet protocols and not only Web ones
  80. edhelas for several years now
  81. edhelas because building on top of HTTP brings maybe lots of advantages (including the "simplicity at first")
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  84. edhelas but also drawback (overhead, scalability…)
  85. edhelas this is only for the protocol layer, functionnality wise there's lots of differences
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  88. zinid > The W3C has allowed DRM to move forward on the web All you need to know about W3C
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  93. goffi activity pub is pushed by web based networks such as Diaspora or Mastodon which are the most famous ones even if both are youger than XMPP based ones. While I'm sad that they never tried to talk to us or follow what we have done, at least it's standardized and it should be easy to communicate with them.
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  95. SouL I shared with you guys that link from the fsf because I felt sad about that. I haven't heard anything about considering XMPP for that standard. And what worries me now is, people involved in ActivityPub, did even know XMPP? I wonder if XMPP didn't make it because people don't know what great things can you have with XMPP.
  96. SouL I know that we have still a lot of work to do in that regard, but for me seems like a loss in our side :/
  97. SouL Not meaning that we have to give up or anything, of course!
  98. zinid > did even know XMPP? I think the problem is NIH, not ignorance
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  100. SouL Yeah, could be...
  101. goffi I think you can find easily what we have done after a quick search on any search engine.
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  114. goffi SouL: after nearly 10 years, I'm not going to give up, trust me ;)
  115. goffi even if FOSS community is mostly ignoring us
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  120. edhelas SouL I already talked several times with those guys, also proposed to work with them (and the XSF then)
  121. edhelas the thing is that we're not living in the same world, those guy are basically talking about synchronising articles and publications between nodes using HTTP and JSON, because they always done that (they're from the Web)
  122. edhelas which is a bit the opposite than us conceptualy wise
  123. zinid let's move XMPP to JSON
  124. edhelas there's always the proposal "yeah but we can build a transport/bridge" but we all know how bad it will be
  125. edhelas the big difference is that for Pubsub, it's a piece of XMPP, so we are offering way more than just publication synchronisation
  126. edhelas basically Diaspora is trying for years to add chat features to the social network, they are actually trying to use XMPP
  127. edhelas but because of their architecture it's really difficult
  128. pep. zinid: {xep 295} o/
  129. Bunneh zinid: JSON Encodings for XMPP (Humorous, Active, 2011-04-01) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0295.html
  130. edhelas with Movim for example, creating links/features between the social part (Pubsub/Microblog) and the Chat part (MUC…) it's way more easier
  131. edhelas and everything is coming from the same stream, use the same protocol
  132. zinid pep., yeah, I know about that one
  133. zinid honestly, I think JSON is doomed as well, just like XML
  134. Zash Everything is doomed
  135. Zash Let's sing the doom song!
  136. edhelas even if it can be a mess between all the XEPs and their related features, it's still way more coherent in the end
  137. zinid after webassembly is widely adopted, javascript will start losing position along with json
  138. zinid so people don't learn
  139. zinid we have a great example with stuck XML: xmpp
  140. zinid then we will have examples with json
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  142. Ge0rG I❤JSON. `{"secure":true,"secure":false}`
  143. edhelas feels like talking in the wind
  144. Ge0rG All of IT is doomed. Let's become potato farmers!
  145. Zash Ge0rG: YES!
  146. Ge0rG Oh wait, farming is infested with Bad IT as well... https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware
  147. zinid potato is not doomed?
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  149. goffi even our CPUs are doomed anyway
  150. Ge0rG goffi: it's not the CPUs, it's the assumption that you can share your CPU between code that belongs to you and code that belongs to somebody else.
  151. Ge0rG and by the latter I mean all of the web and cloud and probably some other things.
  152. Holger Will we be competing with the potatoe thing? Zash invents a simple and popular way to grow potatoes, though only a single potatoe at a time? Kev won't show anyone how he does it but try to sell the potatoes to the military? zinid will note how all your potatoe taste like utter crap and will try to grow millions in parallel?
  153. zinid Holger, sounds doomy
  154. Ge0rG That analogy has gone too far.
  155. Holger Ge0rG: And I didn't even start with the client potatoes!
  156. Ge0rG Holger: maybe those are peaches instead?
  157. zinid "peaches"
  158. zinid there is a single "maybe peach", others are "rotten peaches"
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  160. Ge0rG Those are called lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
  161. Holger Whatever they are, they will only be eaten by other farmers.
  162. SouL is lost now.
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  164. Holger Normal people will just stick to French fries.
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  177. vanitasvitae Has anyone tried to make a potatoe battery powered xmpp client/server?
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  181. pep. "xsf@muc.xmpp.org/@Alacer: 403 - modify: Messages from strangers are rejected" @Alacer you might want to fix this
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  183. pep. I didn't send any message to you
  184. Zash I also got that
  185. Zash Bork?
  186. Ge0rG Me too!
  187. SouL Me too
  188. SouL It replied my messsages sent here
  189. SouL and at dino's MUC too
  190. zinid http://upload.zinid.ru/muc-errors.png
  191. zinid LOL :)
  192. Zash Hm, things I said... MUC bug?
  193. zinid Zash, no
  194. SouL That's what I'm saying, I got my messages back :)
  195. zinid Zash, the Alacer is not joined the room, but the room doesn't know this and continues to send messages, those are rejected by mod_block_stranges (because outgoing presence is lacking)
  196. Zash Appearing as PMs from @Alacer
  197. Zash Augh what
  198. zinid yes, Alacer has mod_block_strangers enabled on his server
  199. zinid at least this is my theory
  200. pep. zinid, you might want to give a try to poezio's dark theme btw :p
  201. zinid pep., nah thanks, I still need my eyes
  202. Ge0rG mod_block_strangers blocking type=groupchat must've been an awesome idea.
  203. Ge0rG Probably as good as rejecting type=error.
  204. Ge0rG <message from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/@Alacer" to="georg@yax.im/poezio" type="error" xml:lang="en" id="999020f9-896b-49fb-8a2f-e820b3dab185-3B48E"><inactive xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/chatstates" /><delay xmlns="urn:xmpp:delay" stamp="2018-01-24T09:41:26.596476Z" from="jabber.at">Resent</delay><error type="modify" code="403"><policy-violation xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" /><text xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" xml:lang="en">Messages from strangers are rejected</text></error><body>Those are called lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons</body></message>
  205. Ge0rG zinid: you are right, "Messages from strangers are rejected"
  206. zinid yeah, and poezio renders them in a strange way
  207. zinid at least ejabberd is not involved here, so I'm clean :D
  208. zinid this time
  209. zinid ah, Alacer might be using ejabberd with mod_block_strangers
  210. zinid damn
  211. zinid Ge0rG, if we don't block groupchat, spammers can set type='groupchat' to send spam
  212. zinid and maybe some clients will render this
  213. Holger Yes it's not obvious to me that we wouldn't want to block groupchat.
  214. Holger Maybe not return an error for groupchat? But that's not obvious to me either.
  215. Zash Shouldn't Prosody kick them out when receiving an error?
  216. zinid yeah
  217. zinid another weirdness is why Alacer's server didn't send presence-unavailable to the conference
  218. zinid because the server is clearly available and sends stanzas
  219. zinid ah, oh, just noticed it, the server is jabber.at
  220. Holger The errors are returned to full JIDs, not to the bare MUC JID. Should the MUC service kick him nevertheless?
  221. Holger ejabberd didn't kick him either, I got the same error PMs in the Conversations and ejabberd MUCs.
  222. zinid really weird
  223. Ge0rG Holger: no, errors to full-JID are PM errors
  224. Ge0rG Holger: so it's useful to pass them on
  225. Ge0rG Maybe mod_block_strangers should error to the bare JID instead?
  226. Holger So this is all expected.
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  228. Holger Hmmm.
  229. zinid Ge0rG, indeed, that's why they are rendered in a separate window of poezio, hehe
  230. Holger Or only return error to bare JID in case of groupchat?
  231. Ge0rG Holger: in case of groupchat, it should track directed presence and not consider those as "strangers"
  232. Holger It does.
  233. zinid Ge0rG, it does, I think there was some connection error or something and presence-unavailable has lost
  234. Holger Right.
  235. Ge0rG Then you need to send errors before processing the presence-unavailable?
  236. zinid what?
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  238. Ge0rG It looks like the session collapsed.
  239. zinid ah, you mean in mod_block_strangers
  240. Ge0rG Yes
  241. Holger It took less than a day for this to happen after the jabber.at upgrade. I wonder how much we'll spam people this way. \o/
  242. Ge0rG XMPP, where the corner cases have corner cases.
  243. Holger mod_block_mod_block_stranger_errors
  244. Ge0rG What I need now is mod_block_siwssjabber.
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  246. Ge0rG http://web.swissjabber.ch/ - "Apache2 Ubuntu Default Page" That's how a well-maintained XMPP server looks like.
  247. zinid Ge0rG, you're too picky
  248. Ge0rG zinid: I prefer the term discerning :P
  249. zinid sorry, my dictionary is lacking this term
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  312. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16222478 3. 2. 1. GO :D
  313. zinid Nice advertisement, but no
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  325. edhelas > AFAIK XMPP is more geared towards IM than microblogging and it's very complex and difficult to get right due to many extensions.
  326. zinid And webshit is so much simpler, yeah
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  328. edhelas :D
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  332. jonasw I really like the idea of an entry-point XEP for the different "profiles" of XMPP
  333. jonasw somewhat like the compliance suites
  334. jonasw I still need to read through the posts on-list
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  339. Ge0rG jonasw: aren't you the new compliance suite author? Make them better! 😀
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  342. Dave Cridland jonasw, You can apply #557 and close #556 and #555, by the way. I'll get a vote started, at least, on #576 and #559. That's all I see there for Council's action for now, is that right?
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  344. mathieui https://lwn.net/Articles/741218/ I missed this apparently
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  354. edhelas https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/ down ?
  355. SamWhited Works for me
  356. edhelas ah no back now
  357. edhelas SamWhited thanks for the fix
  358. goffi ah ah "https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16223683" :D
  359. goffi not sure if it's a joke or serious
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  362. SouL mathieui, I will read the article, thanks for sharing.
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  378. zinid Oh, xmpp agents in the thread
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  388. goffi zinid: yes me ;)
  389. zinid goffi: there is yet another one
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  391. SamWhited > and it's definitely not complicated I feel like this is untrue. While I'm all for advocating XMPP, we need to acknowledge that we have a complexity problem and not tell people things like this (which will only make them dislike it even more when they try it and can't figure it out because it actually is complicated) </two-cents>
  392. pep. zinid, me
  393. pep. and jcbrand
  394. zinid Yeah, all criticism is so typical
  395. pep. zinid, I think SamWhited was replying to goffi?
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  397. zinid pep.: Not sure who replied to whom 😁
  398. Kev I don't think there's any question that XMPP is complicated. There is a question about whether it's more complicated than it needs to be, although I don't think we're doing too badly on that front, for what we're providing.
  399. Ge0rG So some people claim the Blockchain is a solution to Zooko's Triange. Is that true?
  400. Kev If you list out all the things XMPP does and ask "Is it complicated to write a system that does X?" the answer is 'yes', whether you use XMPP or not.
  401. goffi SamWhited: what do you find complicated ? The basis is just 3 messages, and feature are well separated thanks to namespaces. Of course some features are complicated (Jingle), but it's normal for this kind of feature, and as Kev said, I don't think it's more complicated than needed (I specified for a decentralized network in my comment).
  402. goffi s/3 messages/3 stanza/
  403. zinid Kev: yes, it's to complicated for what it does, mostly due to priorities and resource routing, round trips, inconsistency with mam and stream management (this should be done by a single replication mechanism)
  404. zinid *too
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  406. goffi priorities is a legacy feature that should be removed IMHO
  407. goffi and I would appreciate mandatory unique ids on message too, but it's hard to grow a standard like XMPP without this kind of little annoyances
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  409. Ge0rG I'd kill for XMPP with GUID message IDs and MAM-Subscription-instead-of-Carbons
  410. zinid can't we redesign everything with with keeping some very basic compatiblity (probably on server-side gateways)?
  411. Ge0rG I'd just define GUID message IDs as mandatory and require all clients to be patched OR ELSE.
  412. Ge0rG But I'm pretty sure there will be some Council opposition.
  413. Kev It's slightly more complicated than that in the face of malicious clients, I suspect.
  414. Ge0rG Kev: I'm sure we can sort out that by restricting the scope to a single user's clients.
  415. Kev That would, sadly, break some of the things I want to do with GUID messages.
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  417. Kev Which includes uncontroversial things like message URIs :)
  418. Ge0rG I could arrange with server-generated GUIDs, but then you'd say "but malicious servers"
  419. Kev I think we need to think through these things
  420. Kev Because message URIs (or similar) are a thing we could really do with.
  421. zinid not sure how GUID will help
  422. Ge0rG I'm not asking for much. All I want is to associate MUC reflections to what I sent and to properly merge history resyncs.
  423. zinid I'm thinking about monotonically increasing ids forming version vectors, used for database replication
  424. Ge0rG zinid: but then you can see how many messages I sent!
  425. zinid Ge0rG, true
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  430. Ge0rG `SELECT _id FROM chats WHERE jid=? AND from_me=1 AND (message_id=? OR body=?) AND _id >= ?` - this just doesn't cut it.
  431. Kev Especially not if the server is rewriting message bodies.
  432. Ge0rG And it breaks on multi-line messages in IRC transports.
  433. zinid oh yes, IRC transports are very important, we cannot break them
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  435. Ge0rG Kev: that wouldn't be a problem if MUC servers wouldn't rewrite message IDs.
  436. Kev Right.
  437. zinid Ge0rG, it should append it though
  438. Ge0rG zinid: what should append what, where?
  439. Kev It. There.
  440. Ge0rG Kev: ITYM "It. It. There."
  441. Kev That's for version 2.
  442. Ge0rG Oh.
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