edhelasyeah, this means that we will have two standards now, the XMPP-Pubsub one and the Web-ActivityPub one
zinidwhat a mess, we need another one, unique!
zinidoh wait...
ZashFor what? Do they even cover the same things?
edhelaspersonally I was explaining the advantages of building a social-feed standard on Internet protocols and not only Web ones
edhelasfor several years now
edhelasbecause building on top of HTTP brings maybe lots of advantages (including the "simplicity at first")
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edhelasbut also drawback (overhead, scalability…)
edhelasthis is only for the protocol layer, functionnality wise there's lots of differences
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zinid> The W3C has allowed DRM to move forward on the web
All you need to know about W3C
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goffiactivity pub is pushed by web based networks such as Diaspora or Mastodon which are the most famous ones even if both are youger than XMPP based ones. While I'm sad that they never tried to talk to us or follow what we have done, at least it's standardized and it should be easy to communicate with them.
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SouLI shared with you guys that link from the fsf because I felt sad about that. I haven't heard anything about considering XMPP for that standard. And what worries me now is, people involved in ActivityPub, did even know XMPP? I wonder if XMPP didn't make it because people don't know what great things can you have with XMPP.
SouLI know that we have still a lot of work to do in that regard, but for me seems like a loss in our side :/
SouLNot meaning that we have to give up or anything, of course!
zinid> did even know XMPP?
I think the problem is NIH, not ignorance
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SouLYeah, could be...
goffiI think you can find easily what we have done after a quick search on any search engine.
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goffiSouL: after nearly 10 years, I'm not going to give up, trust me ;)
goffieven if FOSS community is mostly ignoring us
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edhelasSouL I already talked several times with those guys, also proposed to work with them (and the XSF then)
edhelasthe thing is that we're not living in the same world, those guy are basically talking about synchronising articles and publications between nodes using HTTP and JSON, because they always done that (they're from the Web)
edhelaswhich is a bit the opposite than us conceptualy wise
zinidlet's move XMPP to JSON
edhelasthere's always the proposal "yeah but we can build a transport/bridge" but we all know how bad it will be
edhelasthe big difference is that for Pubsub, it's a piece of XMPP, so we are offering way more than just publication synchronisation
edhelasbasically Diaspora is trying for years to add chat features to the social network, they are actually trying to use XMPP
edhelasbut because of their architecture it's really difficult
pep.zinid: {xep 295} o/
Bunnehzinid: JSON Encodings for XMPP (Humorous, Active, 2011-04-01)
See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0295.html
edhelaswith Movim for example, creating links/features between the social part (Pubsub/Microblog) and the Chat part (MUC…) it's way more easier
edhelasand everything is coming from the same stream, use the same protocol
zinidpep., yeah, I know about that one
zinidhonestly, I think JSON is doomed as well, just like XML
ZashEverything is doomed
ZashLet's sing the doom song!
edhelaseven if it can be a mess between all the XEPs and their related features, it's still way more coherent in the end
zinidafter webassembly is widely adopted, javascript will start losing position along with json
zinidso people don't learn
zinidwe have a great example with stuck XML: xmpp
zinidthen we will have examples with json
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Ge0rGI❤JSON. `{"secure":true,"secure":false}`
edhelasfeels like talking in the wind
Ge0rGAll of IT is doomed. Let's become potato farmers!
ZashGe0rG: YES!
Ge0rGOh wait, farming is infested with Bad IT as well... https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware
zinidpotato is not doomed?
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goffieven our CPUs are doomed anyway
Ge0rGgoffi: it's not the CPUs, it's the assumption that you can share your CPU between code that belongs to you and code that belongs to somebody else.
Ge0rGand by the latter I mean all of the web and cloud and probably some other things.
HolgerWill we be competing with the potatoe thing? Zash invents a simple and popular way to grow potatoes, though only a single potatoe at a time? Kev won't show anyone how he does it but try to sell the potatoes to the military? zinid will note how all your potatoe taste like utter crap and will try to grow millions in parallel?
zinidHolger, sounds doomy
Ge0rGThat analogy has gone too far.
HolgerGe0rG: And I didn't even start with the client potatoes!
Ge0rGHolger: maybe those are peaches instead?
zinid"peaches"
zinidthere is a single "maybe peach", others are "rotten peaches"
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Ge0rGThose are called lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
HolgerWhatever they are, they will only be eaten by other farmers.
SouLis lost now.
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HolgerNormal people will just stick to French fries.
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vanitasvitaeHas anyone tried to make a potatoe battery powered xmpp client/server?
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pep."xsf@muc.xmpp.org/@Alacer: 403 - modify: Messages from strangers are rejected" @Alacer you might want to fix this
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pep.I didn't send any message to you
ZashI also got that
ZashBork?
Ge0rGMe too!
SouLMe too
SouLIt replied my messsages sent here
SouLand at dino's MUC too
zinidhttp://upload.zinid.ru/muc-errors.png
zinidLOL :)
ZashHm, things I said... MUC bug?
zinidZash, no
SouLThat's what I'm saying, I got my messages back :)
zinidZash, the Alacer is not joined the room, but the room doesn't know this and continues to send messages, those are rejected by mod_block_stranges (because outgoing presence is lacking)
ZashAppearing as PMs from @Alacer
ZashAugh what
zinidyes, Alacer has mod_block_strangers enabled on his server
zinidat least this is my theory
pep.zinid, you might want to give a try to poezio's dark theme btw :p
zinidpep., nah thanks, I still need my eyes
Ge0rGmod_block_strangers blocking type=groupchat must've been an awesome idea.
Ge0rGProbably as good as rejecting type=error.
Ge0rG<message from="xsf@muc.xmpp.org/@Alacer" to="georg@yax.im/poezio" type="error" xml:lang="en" id="999020f9-896b-49fb-8a2f-e820b3dab185-3B48E"><inactive xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/chatstates" /><delay xmlns="urn:xmpp:delay" stamp="2018-01-24T09:41:26.596476Z" from="jabber.at">Resent</delay><error type="modify" code="403"><policy-violation xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" /><text xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas" xml:lang="en">Messages from strangers are rejected</text></error><body>Those are called lemons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons</body></message>
Ge0rGzinid: you are right, "Messages from strangers are rejected"
zinidyeah, and poezio renders them in a strange way
zinidat least ejabberd is not involved here, so I'm clean :D
zinidthis time
zinidah, Alacer might be using ejabberd with mod_block_strangers
ziniddamn
zinidGe0rG, if we don't block groupchat, spammers can set type='groupchat' to send spam
zinidand maybe some clients will render this
HolgerYes it's not obvious to me that we wouldn't want to block groupchat.
HolgerMaybe not return an error for groupchat? But that's not obvious to me either.
ZashShouldn't Prosody kick them out when receiving an error?
zinidyeah
zinidanother weirdness is why Alacer's server didn't send presence-unavailable to the conference
zinidbecause the server is clearly available and sends stanzas
zinidah, oh, just noticed it, the server is jabber.at
HolgerThe errors are returned to full JIDs, not to the bare MUC JID. Should the MUC service kick him nevertheless?
Holgerejabberd didn't kick him either, I got the same error PMs in the Conversations and ejabberd MUCs.
zinidreally weird
Ge0rGHolger: no, errors to full-JID are PM errors
Ge0rGHolger: so it's useful to pass them on
Ge0rGMaybe mod_block_strangers should error to the bare JID instead?
HolgerSo this is all expected.
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HolgerHmmm.
zinidGe0rG, indeed, that's why they are rendered in a separate window of poezio, hehe
HolgerOr only return error to bare JID in case of groupchat?
Ge0rGHolger: in case of groupchat, it should track directed presence and not consider those as "strangers"
HolgerIt does.
zinidGe0rG, it does, I think there was some connection error or something and presence-unavailable has lost
HolgerRight.
Ge0rGThen you need to send errors before processing the presence-unavailable?
zinidwhat?
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Ge0rGIt looks like the session collapsed.
zinidah, you mean in mod_block_strangers
Ge0rGYes
HolgerIt took less than a day for this to happen after the jabber.at upgrade. I wonder how much we'll spam people this way. \o/
Ge0rGXMPP, where the corner cases have corner cases.
Holgermod_block_mod_block_stranger_errors
Ge0rGWhat I need now is mod_block_siwssjabber.
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Ge0rGhttp://web.swissjabber.ch/ - "Apache2 Ubuntu Default Page"
That's how a well-maintained XMPP server looks like.
zinidGe0rG, you're too picky
Ge0rGzinid: I prefer the term discerning :P
zinidsorry, my dictionary is lacking this term
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edhelashttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16222478 3. 2. 1. GO :D
zinidNice advertisement, but no
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edhelas> AFAIK XMPP is more geared towards IM than microblogging and it's very complex and difficult to get right due to many extensions.
zinidAnd webshit is so much simpler, yeah
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edhelas:D
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jonaswI really like the idea of an entry-point XEP for the different "profiles" of XMPP
jonaswsomewhat like the compliance suites
jonaswI still need to read through the posts on-list
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Ge0rGjonasw: aren't you the new compliance suite author? Make them better! 😀
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Dave Cridlandjonasw, You can apply #557 and close #556 and #555, by the way. I'll get a vote started, at least, on #576 and #559. That's all I see there for Council's action for now, is that right?
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mathieuihttps://lwn.net/Articles/741218/ I missed this apparently
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edhelashttps://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/ down ?
SouLmathieui, I will read the article, thanks for sharing.
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zinidOh, xmpp agents in the thread
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goffizinid: yes me ;)
zinidgoffi: there is yet another one
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SamWhited> and it's definitely not complicated
I feel like this is untrue. While I'm all for advocating XMPP, we need to acknowledge that we have a complexity problem and not tell people things like this (which will only make them dislike it even more when they try it and can't figure it out because it actually is complicated)
</two-cents>
pep.zinid, me
pep.and jcbrand
zinidYeah, all criticism is so typical
pep.zinid, I think SamWhited was replying to goffi?
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zinidpep.: Not sure who replied to whom 😁
KevI don't think there's any question that XMPP is complicated. There is a question about whether it's more complicated than it needs to be, although I don't think we're doing too badly on that front, for what we're providing.
Ge0rGSo some people claim the Blockchain is a solution to Zooko's Triange. Is that true?
KevIf you list out all the things XMPP does and ask "Is it complicated to write a system that does X?" the answer is 'yes', whether you use XMPP or not.
goffiSamWhited: what do you find complicated ? The basis is just 3 messages, and feature are well separated thanks to namespaces. Of course some features are complicated (Jingle), but it's normal for this kind of feature, and as Kev said, I don't think it's more complicated than needed (I specified for a decentralized network in my comment).
goffis/3 messages/3 stanza/
zinidKev: yes, it's to complicated for what it does, mostly due to priorities and resource routing, round trips, inconsistency with mam and stream management (this should be done by a single replication mechanism)
zinid*too
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goffipriorities is a legacy feature that should be removed IMHO
goffiand I would appreciate mandatory unique ids on message too, but it's hard to grow a standard like XMPP without this kind of little annoyances
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Ge0rGI'd kill for XMPP with GUID message IDs and MAM-Subscription-instead-of-Carbons
zinidcan't we redesign everything with with keeping some very basic compatiblity (probably on server-side gateways)?
Ge0rGI'd just define GUID message IDs as mandatory and require all clients to be patched OR ELSE.
Ge0rGBut I'm pretty sure there will be some Council opposition.
KevIt's slightly more complicated than that in the face of malicious clients, I suspect.
Ge0rGKev: I'm sure we can sort out that by restricting the scope to a single user's clients.
KevThat would, sadly, break some of the things I want to do with GUID messages.
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KevWhich includes uncontroversial things like message URIs :)
Ge0rGI could arrange with server-generated GUIDs, but then you'd say "but malicious servers"
KevI think we need to think through these things
KevBecause message URIs (or similar) are a thing we could really do with.
zinidnot sure how GUID will help
Ge0rGI'm not asking for much. All I want is to associate MUC reflections to what I sent and to properly merge history resyncs.
zinidI'm thinking about monotonically increasing ids forming version vectors, used for database replication
Ge0rGzinid: but then you can see how many messages I sent!
zinidGe0rG, true
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Ge0rG`SELECT _id FROM chats WHERE jid=? AND from_me=1 AND (message_id=? OR body=?) AND _id >= ?` - this just doesn't cut it.
KevEspecially not if the server is rewriting message bodies.
Ge0rGAnd it breaks on multi-line messages in IRC transports.
zinidoh yes, IRC transports are very important, we cannot break them
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Ge0rGKev: that wouldn't be a problem if MUC servers wouldn't rewrite message IDs.