XSF Discussion - 2018-01-25

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  18. moparisthebest Is it https://github.com/legastero/memberbot
  19. moparisthebest Or is there a newer version
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  93. jonasw SamWhited, would you be more in favour of #559 if it were a separate XEP?
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  119. SaltyBones ah, mostly the usual crowd ;)
  120. jonasw yupp
  121. jonasw consolidating protocol discussion here is good tho
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  130. Ge0rG updated the already-complicated MUC self-message matching with another heuristic yesterday.
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  133. Ge0rG If the sent message begins with the reflected message, followed by a newline, this must be a reflection from a "MUC" that splits multi-line messages. Yikes.
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  145. edhelas damn, we reached XEP 400
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  147. SouL :D
  148. edhelas https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0404.html
  149. Ge0rG edhelas: that in-joke won't work for long any more
  150. SouL Haha :)
  151. Ge0rG unless we can convince the editors to skip over 404
  152. Ge0rG Or, even better, somebody prepares a Humorous "XEP-404: XEP Not Found" that will be put into the queue at the right moment
  153. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, That's literally what I was in the process of typing.
  154. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: that proposal or that XEP?
  155. Dave Cridland The idea.
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  165. Holger .
  166. jonasw :
  167. Zash ·:
  168. SouL :/
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  180. jonasw .
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  185. zinid ping
  186. jonasw pong!
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  188. Guus 🔫 (pang)
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  208. SouL Holger, look what you have done >:[
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  211. zinid vanitasvitae knows how to fight spam!
  212. zinid https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246
  213. Guus there's a XEP that describes that...
  214. Ge0rG I've asked for that feature a year ago, or maybe two, too :)
  215. zinid what feature? rendering captchas?
  216. zinid and why a client cannot generate captchas on its own?
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  218. Ge0rG zinid: why should the client do that? what do you do with multiple clients?
  219. Ge0rG zinid: do you have to solve a captcha for each of my clients? I have five or six
  220. Guus XEP-0159 I think
  221. zinid Ge0rG, ah, I see
  222. Guus allowing a server to respond with a challenge to potential spimmers (and keeping track of who is or is not a potential spimmer)
  223. zinid well, this is trivial to implement in ejabberd
  224. jonasw {xep 0159}
  225. Bunneh jonasw: Spim-Blocking Control (Standards Track, Deferred, 2006-07-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0159.html
  226. zinid the question is what client will support this?
  227. Ge0rG none!
  228. Guus zinid: as soon as you build it, pretty much every client :)
  229. zinid Guus, I built it for IBR ages ago, still only minority of clients support it
  230. Guus I assume that's because IBR is either not used as much, or used in a more 'trusted' setting (of an internal network).
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  232. Guus if it's easy for you to build, please consider adding it, at least as a configurable option?
  233. Guus it'll surely not hurt the spim battle.
  234. Ge0rG 0159 depends on Privacy Lists, which are deprecated.
  235. Guus eternal fame will be your part.
  236. Ge0rG I have two dozens of pending subscription requests
  237. Ge0rG PARS should also be able to pass through that captcha
  238. vanitasvitae The way I imagine it doesnt require client support
  239. Guus vanitasvitae: surely, the initiator's client should support it?
  240. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: please add a remark regarding PARS
  241. vanitasvitae Ge0rG: what is pars?
  242. vanitasvitae Guus: nope, it could be implemented purely server side
  243. Guus vanitasvitae: at some point, a person needs to verify that there's a person, not a spambot. Where does that happen?
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  246. SouL vanitasvitae, do you mean solving the captcha in the browser?
  247. vanitasvitae > https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246
  248. SouL jabber.ru used to do that
  249. zinid SouL, for joining rooms, yes, that's standard ejabberd's feature
  250. zinid but you only need to solve it in browser if you have retarded client
  251. zinid normal clients render captcha just fine
  252. SouL Yeah, what I tried to say is that a link is provided too heh ^^
  253. zinid true
  254. Guus oh, right. Yeah, I'd also see the 'open link in browser' as a fallback for clients that are not compliant.
  255. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: PARS is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html
  256. zinid vanitasvitae, ok, I have assigned the issue to myself, will see what I can do
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  258. vanitasvitae zinid: nice
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  308. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: there is still the technical challenge of not hosting the new XEP under xep-0404.html (leading zero)
  309. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m sure we can put a redirect from xep-404.html to xep-0404.html :)
  310. Ge0rG jonasw: the other way 'round would make more sense.
  311. jonasw and also be much more tricky
  312. jonasw I don’t want to mess with editor tooling on that level.
  313. Ge0rG don't think so
  314. jonasw maybe if it’s done at the end of the build stage
  315. Ge0rG jonasw: we could make XEP-404 work as a generic error page and serve it as that, then just blacklist 404.
  316. Ge0rG jonasw: wouldn't it suffice to create a xep-404.xml and build that?
  317. jonasw yeah, and then all tooling breaks because it expects filenames to have xep-%04d.html format.
  318. Ge0rG how is the "next autoincrement value to be used" determined?
  319. jonasw yeah, and then all tooling breaks because it expects filenames to have xep-%04d.xml format.
  320. jonasw max(accepted_xeps.keys()), actually
  321. Ge0rG a rewrite rule on the server, that doesnt do 30x
  322. Ge0rG hm. oka
  323. Ge0rG +y
  324. jonasw yeah, that’d work of course
  325. jonasw that’s kinda what I meant by redirect :)
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  327. jonasw Ge0rG, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/tools/accept.py#L78 to be specific ;)
  328. jonasw but that can easily be overridden once to avoid 404 to be created when 403 is the newest one.
  329. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm sure max() will work out properly if there is a xep-404
  330. jonasw (FWIW, I would’ve preferred to avoid relying on %04d, but taking all XML or xep-*.xml files in the directory did wrong things because of templates and such)
  331. Ge0rG yeah
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  335. jonasw I noticed that the copyright in the XEP page headers is still "© 1999 – 2017 XMPP Standards Foundation. SEE LEGAL NOTICES."
  336. jonasw do we want this to be "1999 – 2018" on all the xeps?
  337. Ge0rG jonasw: yes please
  338. Ge0rG But you might want to get Board approval for that.
  339. SamWhited nah, then it'll sort as 404 not 260 and be way higher than the other xeps (assuming python where leading 0 is octal)
  340. jonasw SamWhited, not in python3 anymore ;)
  341. jonasw (in python3, 0123 is simply syntax error)
  342. SamWhited oh, weird
  343. SamWhited nothing to do here then
  344. jonasw SamWhited, would you be more in favour of #559 if it were a separate XEP?
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  346. SamWhited I'm not sure, I need to think over how the change will affect things (assuming that's the muc change)
  347. jonasw yah, it’s the MUC change
  348. Ge0rG This is not PHP, where "0280" parses as 2.
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  350. MattJ and is == to TRUE, FALSE, "2", "0" and "sausages"
  351. nyco Test C
  352. jonasw ohai nyco
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  354. nyco Test M
  355. intosi So it's not vegan, much like the new notes?
  356. nyco seems to work for now
  357. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  358. ralphm bangs gavel
  359. MattJ intosi, I've not tasted either of them
  360. nyco these days, I lose messages, got delays
  361. ralphm 0. Welcome & Agenda
  362. ralphm Who do we have today?
  363. nyco o/
  364. Guus me
  365. MattJ nyco, then I suggest you use a different server/client, otherwise it will be hard to participate...
  366. MattJ I'm here
  367. Martin I'm here
  368. nyco it would be nice if XMPP worked fine...
  369. MattJ Working fine for me, but anyway...
  370. nyco for me
  371. ralphm Full house, splendid
  372. nyco it seems you don't receive my messages in one-to-one chat
  373. Guus (that's a first, I think?)
  374. ralphm Any additional topics for the agenda?
  375. MattJ None here
  376. jonasw ralphm, yeah, whether I shall update the copyright notice on XEPs with this year.
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  378. jonasw (it currently reads "© 1999 – 2017")
  379. Guus I've got nothing that's not already on Trello.
  380. nyco please add the card
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  382. ralphm I don't think copyrights work like that
  383. jonasw I have no idea either
  384. jonasw but having not the current year there looks weird
  385. jonasw cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html
  386. ralphm ok, putting that in later
  387. Guus (not sure if that's up to board?)
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  389. jonasw Guus, me neither, but it feels boardish
  390. jonasw (and Ge0rG from council said so :))
  391. ralphm 1. Board priorities
  392. ralphm I believe we still need to schedule a video conference on this, no?
  393. nyco yep
  394. nyco that's on me
  395. nyco when's best? time day of week what week?
  396. Guus let's schedule that via mail?
  397. nyco maybe not this week, nor next
  398. nyco ok
  399. nyco I'll send a poll
  400. ralphm great
  401. MattJ +1
  402. nyco if I had your nogo, that could help
  403. nyco if any
  404. Guus perhaps combine with summit?
  405. nyco good question
  406. ralphm Guus: this was indeed suggested, but one of us isn't going to be there physically
  407. nyco I feel like those discussions would benefit a lot from members but I fear the crowd will be too large for everyone to be heard
  408. Guus ralphm: perhaps one joining in remotely?
  409. ralphm indeed
  410. nyco that said, this discussion would also benefit from non-members, that is the rest of the world
  411. Guus nyco: to clarify, I was not suggesting to discuss this during the summit itself, but in the evening or something.
  412. Guus wiht just board members.
  413. ralphm Let's continue this on list then
  414. nyco that's two more hours of work, I guess people wanna have beer
  415. Guus on list. :)
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  417. ralphm 2. Bus Factor Bank Account
  418. ralphm Did you discuss this last week?
  419. nyco yep
  420. Guus I still would like to know what the bank procedures are on this. Haven't talked to Peter about this in a couple of weeks though.
  421. ralphm So we need to track him down on that, ok.
  422. Guus if bank procedures are adequate, I'd prefer not to add individuals.
  423. ralphm nods
  424. ralphm 3. Copyright statements on XEPs
  425. Dave Cridland My suggestion on copyrights would be to claim the present year always.
  426. Guus if all our current XEPs list an end date in 2017, I'd simply update that to 2018.
  427. ralphm agreed
  428. Guus that said: I'm not sure how these are supposed to work.
  429. ralphm I think that's usual practice. Whether it holds up in court is another mattre.
  430. ralphm matter
  431. Dave Cridland ralphm, It only matters after what, 75 years? I think we're safe.
  432. ralphm Dave Cridland: :-D
  433. Dave Cridland ralphm, Might want to make a note to revisit after we're all dead.
  434. Guus I'd say: make it 2018.
  435. ralphm noted
  436. ralphm 4. AOB
  437. Dave Cridland Summit status?
  438. nyco Summit?
  439. Guus You're leaving out the items for discussion?
  440. nyco I need to book the dinner
  441. nyco same place as usual? auberge bretonne?
  442. nyco if no opposition, I'm on it
  443. Guus works for me.
  444. nyco consider it done
  445. nyco what else?
  446. Dave Cridland I suggested to Guus that we might want to specifically seek out people to invite. The Google open source office people might be around, for example.
  447. Guus financials-wise, I have questions
  448. andrzej has joined
  449. Guus Ah, I thought you ment to invite our GSoC students.
  450. Guus but yeah, I'd be in favour of both.
  451. MattJ Likewise
  452. Dave Cridland There's probably other folks we might invite, if we think about it. Maybe even the Matrix folks. If only so we can stick them with the bill.
  453. ralphm hah
  454. nyco good idea, they may already have a plan, they got a company, a community
  455. nyco but yeah we can merge
  456. ralphm anything else here?
  457. nyco any RTC
  458. nyco nope
  459. Guus Shall I extend the invitation to Google?
  460. ralphm Guus: please do
  461. Guus + students?
  462. nyco +1
  463. nyco we gotta keep the number acceptable
  464. Guus students are two persons.
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  466. nyco so that I book without a too large error margin
  467. nyco ok,Google? Matrix? How many?
  468. SaltyBones Oh, are people going to fosdem?
  469. Guus (well, three, but I'm guessing one is not coming)
  470. Guus I'll extend just to Google, and ask for attendance numbers.
  471. MattJ SaltyBones, yes, people are going to FOSDEM
  472. Dave Cridland SaltyBones, Lots of people, and for two days before as well.
  473. SaltyBones Can I join some of your meetings?
  474. ralphm https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22
  475. ralphm SaltyBones: have a look there
  476. Dave Cridland SaltyBones, Please do.
  477. Guus I'd like to have us address the financials for a bit
  478. ralphm Guus: shoot
  479. Martin Agreed Guus
  480. Guus a) apart from a van, we have no sponsors
  481. Guus b) see Matt's mail from earlier today
  482. Guus XSF will cover the diner, I assume. Will it also cover lunch at Cisco?
  483. ralphm If there's no sponsors, I believe we should, yes.
  484. ralphm Of course I'd prefer companies stepping up for sponsorship.
  485. Guus We could have individuals pay for themselves, but I'd prefer not to.
  486. nyco I'll try mine
  487. Guus Does the XSF also cover transportation to/from the dinner?
  488. MattJ Generally, yes
  489. jjrh has left
  490. Dave Cridland Guus, Traditionally, yes.
  491. Guus (and, obviously, I'd prefer sponsorship, but if we cant find any...)
  492. Guus ok, thanks
  493. Guus I'll try to figure out how this works with Lunch at Cisco, offline.
  494. jjrh has left
  495. Guus nyco, you were going to arrange for dinner transportation, correct?
  496. ralphm It is easy really
  497. ralphm We pay at the register
  498. ralphm dinner transportation is generally a few cabs
  499. ralphm of course they'd have to be called in time
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  501. Kev And generally what happens is that individuals (often Isode) end up paying for the cabs.
  502. Kev Which might not work so well this year.
  503. Guus we don't have an XSF credit/debit card I think, so someone will have to front?
  504. nyco Guus yes
  505. nyco Uber? taxi? coach?
  506. Guus I have no preference for a type of transportation.
  507. Dave Cridland We should arrange something ahead of time, after last year.
  508. nyco running will do, then
  509. nyco tell me your preferences
  510. ralphm Anyway, in terms of sponsorship for the Summit, we could write an e-mail asking for sponsorship, like we did last time
  511. nyco email written to ESL
  512. MattJ For what it's worth, I don't think it's ever been difficult for us to find sponsors - all we need to do is ask
  513. ralphm For the more general topic, maybe we should discuss this next week in person
  514. ralphm MattJ: right
  515. ralphm I'll write that e-mail
  516. ralphm anything else?
  517. Guus (not from me)
  518. nyco https://trello.com/c/vFYiyf9I/300-summit-sponsoring
  519. Guus please look at the commitment list? :)
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  523. Guus there has been an Item For Discussion on Trello that has gone undiscussed: the surveying thing
  524. Guus can we either discuss or archive that?
  525. Guus https://trello.com/c/wIlPrAyC/258-consider-surveying-membership-to-work-out-what-the-issues-are-and-what-the-board-can-do-to-help
  526. ralphm Indeed, it's been there for a few weeks, and I thought it would be part of the general priorities discussion
  527. ralphm Does that make sense?
  528. nyco https://trello.com/c/8XwcLKzf/301-summit-dinner
  529. Guus might be a chicken/egg type of deal, but, sure.
  530. nyco a lot of effort, for what result?
  531. nyco if someone commits to this, thx, I will provide some support
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  533. ralphm All right.
  534. nyco ok
  535. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  536. nyco +1w, +1
  537. nyco ;-)
  538. Guus that's the summit
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  540. ralphm I'm not sure if doing a meeting at the summit is useful
  541. ralphm with our regular agenda, that is
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  544. Guus I'd at the very least would want to be attending the summit at that hour
  545. ralphm So I propose we do our next normal meeting in 2 weeks
  546. MattJ I'm inclined to agree
  547. Guus perhaps we could do the prio thingy in the sidelines of the summit, but for the regular meeting, +2w would be my preference.
  548. Martin +2W sounds good to me
  549. ralphm good
  550. ralphm 6. Close
  551. ralphm Thanks all!
  552. nyco merci !
  553. ralphm bangs gavel
  554. jonasw \o/
  555. Guus thank you
  556. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  557. MattJ Thanks
  558. ralphm And see most of you next time, of course!
  559. nyco ;-)
  560. ralphm next week that is
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  562. nyco weather not super optimistic
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  565. Ge0rG Sigh. It's been almost a month and I haven't yet managed to reach stpeter. Maybe I need to switch to email
  566. intosi Ge0rG: usually the best option.
  567. jonasw Ge0rG, or comment on random old issues on the xmpp.org repository :D
  568. jonasw which, probably, is swithcing to email
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  582. Ge0rG jonasw: TBH I just didn't want to implement Data Forms in yaxim for preauth-IBR :<
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  590. jonasw Ge0rG, you don’t need to fully implement them, do you?
  591. jonasw like with ad-hoc
  592. jonasw more worrisome is that IBR doesn’t seem to define form field names for username and password
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  603. SouL jonasw: if a XEP that has been deferred gets an implementation, will become again draft at least? Do you know?
  604. jonasw SouL, no
  605. jonasw it won’t
  606. SouL Oh
  607. jonasw the state transition is Experimental -> Deferred, not Draft -> Deferred
  608. jonasw to get a XEP from Deferred to Experimental, all it needs is an update by the author
  609. jonasw (non-editoral update)
  610. SouL What if it does not need any update?
  611. jonasw then the author can ask council to move it to Draft
  612. jonasw for this it needs to pass through Last Call
  613. SouL Ah ok!
  614. jonasw I don’t think that Draft needs to have implementations technically, but council will like it if it does
  615. SouL I will and then ask again..
  616. SouL 😞
  617. jonasw but advancing a XEP to Draft without implementations is likely to be a bad move; without implementations, there’s no deployment experience and there will likely be issues which should be fixed before Draft
  618. SouL Sorry jonasw, I said Draft but I wanted do say Experimental
  619. SouL So Experimental -> Deferred -> Experimental
  620. SouL My bad for causing confusion
  621. SouL I guess the case would be the same, vote again, like a ProtoXEP?
  622. jonasw SouL, I gave you some feedback :)
  623. jonasw (on list)
  624. jonasw no, Deferred -> Experimental is purely procedural (just like Experimental -> Deferred) and does not need a vote.
  625. jonasw if the author publishes an update on a Deferred XEP, it automatically becomes Experimental again, no vote needed.
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  629. SouL jonasw: I see you sent some feedback, thank you, when it was submitted, there were not many comments on it. I will take a look, thanks for clearing things up too
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  631. zinid is processing hints supposed to be deferred?
  632. jonasw zinid, it was experimental before, it hasn’t been updated in 12 months, it gets deferred
  633. jonasw there was some discussion around deprecating it, but I don’t think there has been a vote
  634. jonasw SouL, you’re welcome! I didn’t see it when it went Experimental
  635. zinid jonasw, I know that it is deferred due to inactivity, I just wonder what council think about it
  636. jonasw SouL, so this automated status change to Deferred is a good thing; it reminds the community that the XEP exists and something should be done about it.
  637. jonasw zinid, we’ll see
  638. zinid yes, deferring due to inactivity is a good idea
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  679. goffi hi there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16234057
  680. goffi it's a link to my blog to present new web framework feature
  681. Ge0rG goffi: what's the title? when deep-linking, HN will downgrade the votes
  682. Ge0rG ah, "Show HN: Decentralized web framework based on XMPP (Salut à Toi)" in https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
  683. jonasw goffi, feature request for https://www.goffi.org/b/96207aea-9bd8-4333-a346-63638c041ef7/build-
  684. jonasw click to expand should not be necessary when viewing a single post
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  688. SamWhited It might just be me, but I didn't actually understand what the thing was that post was talking about (is it just web auth using your XMPP account?). Maybe link to the source or a tutorial or somewhere that provides more information?
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  691. SamWhited It sounded intriguing though!
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  702. moparisthebest has anyone done anything like uh, imap over xmpp
  703. jonasw moparisthebest, I think Salut á Toi has something along those lines
  704. Zash in what sense?
  705. jonasw more like XMPP over imap though
  706. moparisthebest well, my phone currently keeps 2 TCP connections open/idle, XMPP and IMAP IDLE
  707. moparisthebest it would be handy if the xmpp app just passed new messages to the email app, and I only needed 1 connection :)
  708. Zash Tunnel them both over ssh
  709. jonasw moparisthebest, why do you care?
  710. Zash Didn't GTalk have some protocol for notifying about new messages?
  711. moparisthebest doesn't really solve the problem, imap idle has to refresh the connection every so often etc
  712. moparisthebest jonasw, yea to be honest it's basically not a problem, just wondered if it'd been done before, I'm always surprised by random XEPs
  713. goffi jonasw: yes I know, it's not stable release yet, it will be done then
  714. jonasw goffi, maybe a bad move to announce it on HN then?
  715. jonasw but that’s just me
  716. goffi SamWhited: planing to write a tutorial too, but it takes time (and I have a paid job not related to XMPP)
  717. goffi moparisthebest: yes, we have SMTP and IMAP, not as a gateway but client side (to use Thunderbird to read your XMPP messages)
  718. moparisthebest ah the opposite, still interesting goffi
  719. goffi note that it was before than Thunderbird actually read XMPP ;)
  720. goffi jonasw: well Show HN is exactly for that if I understood correctly
  721. goffi stuff advanced enough to try, but not necessarly finished and production ready
  722. goffi any way when I post to HN I don't expect it to reach first page :)
  723. jonasw goffi, I don’t visit HN, so I have no idea :)
  724. moparisthebest it might be interesting to just replace sending and recieving in an email client with doing that over xmpp (which at server side would just shove it off to a real imap/smtp server)
  725. jonasw moparisthebest, no, it would not
  726. jonasw you would always incur the factor 4/3 for base64-ing things
  727. jonasw unless you map mime to xmpp with SHIM, whihc probably has its own set of interesting issues
  728. moparisthebest it's all text based, why not shove it through un-encoded?
  729. jonasw I /think/ that you can do 8-bit things in SMTP
  730. goffi oh actually it's first in "show" section (https://news.ycombinator.com/show)
  731. jonasw moparisthebest, also, SMTP and IMAP are octet-based
  732. jonasw not text-based
  733. jonasw (like XML is)
  734. goffi moparisthebest: there is an email gateway somewhere in my TODO list
  735. jonasw at least on the layer the application sees, XMPP is text-based (it has a well-defined encoding everywhere). in email, there’s no such thing (see the hacks you need to do to get unicode into a subject line)
  736. moparisthebest jonasw, I mean you can send emails via SMTP with telnet, text based enough
  737. jonasw of course, all of this could be solved in one way or another (e.g. by fully mapping MIME into XML somehow)
  738. Link Mauve SMTP at least is not octet-based, it’s ASCII-based.
  739. jonasw moparisthebest, telnet is byte-based too
  740. Link Mauve You can’t use more than 7 bits per octet.
  741. jonasw you can, with the 8BIT extension; but that’s not my point, really
  742. moparisthebest it reads lines one by one etc etc
  743. Link Mauve Hence the encoding monsters.
  744. moparisthebest I think it'd be fairly straightforward, not sure
  745. jonasw moparisthebest, that’s not text-based ;)
  746. moparisthebest version #1 would just replace imap idle for push notifications
  747. moparisthebest over xmpp
  748. goffi and commented by edhelas from Movim. But we didn't made a video to show how it's cool and never seen before :D
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  780. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, Actually, IMAP is 8-bit clean, and ESMTP normally is with the extension. Both can also transfer binary (instead of, say, UTF-8) with (rare) extensions.
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  782. Dave Cridland There's also a bunch of extensions to "Always UTF-8", roughly, as part of EAI, as I recall.
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  784. Link Mauve I know pretty much nothing about IMAP, this was about plain SMTP.
  785. Link Mauve Thanks. :)
  786. Link Mauve I’ll read about them.
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