XSF Discussion - 2018-01-25

Whey is memberbot source code

Where*

I know I've seen it before but can't find it now

Is it https://github.com/legastero/memberbot

Or is there a newer version

SamWhited, would you be more in favour of #559 if it were a separate XEP?

ah, mostly the usual crowd ;)

yupp

consolidating protocol discussion here is good tho

If the sent message begins with the reflected message, followed by a newline, this must be a reflection from a "MUC" that splits multi-line messages. Yikes.

damn, we reached XEP 400

:D

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0404.html

edhelas: that in-joke won't work for long any more

Haha :)

unless we can convince the editors to skip over 404

Or, even better, somebody prepares a Humorous "XEP-404: XEP Not Found" that will be put into the queue at the right moment

Ge0rG, That's literally what I was in the process of typing.

Dave Cridland: that proposal or that XEP?

The idea.

.

:

·:

:/

v

.

ping

pong!

🔫 (pang)

Holger, look what you have done >:[

vanitasvitae knows how to fight spam!

https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246

there's a XEP that describes that...

I've asked for that feature a year ago, or maybe two, too :)

what feature? rendering captchas?

and why a client cannot generate captchas on its own?

zinid: why should the client do that? what do you do with multiple clients?

zinid: do you have to solve a captcha for each of my clients? I have five or six

XEP-0159 I think

Ge0rG, ah, I see

allowing a server to respond with a challenge to potential spimmers (and keeping track of who is or is not a potential spimmer)

well, this is trivial to implement in ejabberd

{xep 0159}

jonasw: Spim-Blocking Control (Standards Track, Deferred, 2006-07-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0159.html

the question is what client will support this?

none!

zinid: as soon as you build it, pretty much every client :)

Guus, I built it for IBR ages ago, still only minority of clients support it

I assume that's because IBR is either not used as much, or used in a more 'trusted' setting (of an internal network).

if it's easy for you to build, please consider adding it, at least as a configurable option?

it'll surely not hurt the spim battle.

0159 depends on Privacy Lists, which are deprecated.

eternal fame will be your part.

I have two dozens of pending subscription requests

PARS should also be able to pass through that captcha

The way I imagine it doesnt require client support

vanitasvitae: surely, the initiator's client should support it?

vanitasvitae: please add a remark regarding PARS

Ge0rG: what is pars?

Guus: nope, it could be implemented purely server side

vanitasvitae: at some point, a person needs to verify that there's a person, not a spambot. Where does that happen?

vanitasvitae, do you mean solving the captcha in the browser?

> https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246

jabber.ru used to do that

SouL, for joining rooms, yes, that's standard ejabberd's feature

but you only need to solve it in browser if you have retarded client

normal clients render captcha just fine

Yeah, what I tried to say is that a link is provided too heh ^^

true

oh, right. Yeah, I'd also see the 'open link in browser' as a fallback for clients that are not compliant.

vanitasvitae: PARS is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html

vanitasvitae, ok, I have assigned the issue to myself, will see what I can do

zinid: nice

Dave Cridland: there is still the technical challenge of not hosting the new XEP under xep-0404.html (leading zero)

Ge0rG, I’m sure we can put a redirect from xep-404.html to xep-0404.html :)

jonasw: the other way 'round would make more sense.

and also be much more tricky

I don’t want to mess with editor tooling on that level.

don't think so

maybe if it’s done at the end of the build stage

jonasw: we could make XEP-404 work as a generic error page and serve it as that, then just blacklist 404.

jonasw: wouldn't it suffice to create a xep-404.xml and build that?

how is the "next autoincrement value to be used" determined?

yeah, and then all tooling breaks because it expects filenames to have xep-%04d.xml format. ✏

max(accepted_xeps.keys()), actually

a rewrite rule on the server, that doesnt do 30x

hm. oka

+y

yeah, that’d work of course

that’s kinda what I meant by redirect :)

Ge0rG, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/tools/accept.py#L78 to be specific ;)

but that can easily be overridden once to avoid 404 to be created when 403 is the newest one.

jonasw: I'm sure max() will work out properly if there is a xep-404

(FWIW, I would’ve preferred to avoid relying on %04d, but taking all XML or xep-*.xml files in the directory did wrong things because of templates and such)

yeah

I noticed that the copyright in the XEP page headers is still "© 1999 – 2017 XMPP Standards Foundation. SEE LEGAL NOTICES."

do we want this to be "1999 – 2018" on all the xeps?

jonasw: yes please

But you might want to get Board approval for that.

nah, then it'll sort as 404 not 260 and be way higher than the other xeps (assuming python where leading 0 is octal)

SamWhited, not in python3 anymore ;)

(in python3, 0123 is simply syntax error)

oh, weird

nothing to do here then

SamWhited, would you be more in favour of #559 if it were a separate XEP?

I'm not sure, I need to think over how the change will affect things (assuming that's the muc change)

yah, it’s the MUC change

This is not PHP, where "0280" parses as 2.

and is == to TRUE, FALSE, "2", "0" and "sausages"

Test C

ohai nyco

Test M

So it's not vegan, much like the new notes?

seems to work for now

XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

intosi, I've not tasted either of them

these days, I lose messages, got delays

0. Welcome & Agenda

Who do we have today?

o/

me

nyco, then I suggest you use a different server/client, otherwise it will be hard to participate...

I'm here

I'm here

it would be nice if XMPP worked fine...

Working fine for me, but anyway...

for me

Full house, splendid

it seems you don't receive my messages in one-to-one chat

(that's a first, I think?)

Any additional topics for the agenda?

None here

ralphm, yeah, whether I shall update the copyright notice on XEPs with this year.

(it currently reads "© 1999 – 2017")

I've got nothing that's not already on Trello.

please add the card

I don't think copyrights work like that

I have no idea either

but having not the current year there looks weird

cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html

ok, putting that in later

(not sure if that's up to board?)

Guus, me neither, but it feels boardish

(and Ge0rG from council said so :))

1. Board priorities

I believe we still need to schedule a video conference on this, no?

yep

that's on me

when's best? time day of week what week?

let's schedule that via mail?

maybe not this week, nor next

ok

I'll send a poll

great

+1

if I had your nogo, that could help

if any

perhaps combine with summit?

good question

Guus: this was indeed suggested, but one of us isn't going to be there physically

I feel like those discussions would benefit a lot from members but I fear the crowd will be too large for everyone to be heard

ralphm: perhaps one joining in remotely?

indeed

that said, this discussion would also benefit from non-members, that is the rest of the world

nyco: to clarify, I was not suggesting to discuss this during the summit itself, but in the evening or something.

wiht just board members.

Let's continue this on list then

that's two more hours of work, I guess people wanna have beer

on list. :)

2. Bus Factor Bank Account

Did you discuss this last week?

yep

I still would like to know what the bank procedures are on this. Haven't talked to Peter about this in a couple of weeks though.

So we need to track him down on that, ok.

if bank procedures are adequate, I'd prefer not to add individuals.

3. Copyright statements on XEPs

My suggestion on copyrights would be to claim the present year always.

if all our current XEPs list an end date in 2017, I'd simply update that to 2018.

agreed

that said: I'm not sure how these are supposed to work.

I think that's usual practice. Whether it holds up in court is another mattre.

matter

ralphm, It only matters after what, 75 years? I think we're safe.

Dave Cridland: :-D

ralphm, Might want to make a note to revisit after we're all dead.

I'd say: make it 2018.

noted

4. AOB

Summit status?

Summit?

You're leaving out the items for discussion?

I need to book the dinner

same place as usual? auberge bretonne?

if no opposition, I'm on it

works for me.

consider it done

what else?

I suggested to Guus that we might want to specifically seek out people to invite. The Google open source office people might be around, for example.

financials-wise, I have questions

Ah, I thought you ment to invite our GSoC students.

but yeah, I'd be in favour of both.

Likewise

There's probably other folks we might invite, if we think about it. Maybe even the Matrix folks. If only so we can stick them with the bill.

hah

good idea, they may already have a plan, they got a company, a community

but yeah we can merge

anything else here?

any RTC

nope

Shall I extend the invitation to Google?

Guus: please do

+ students?

+1

we gotta keep the number acceptable

students are two persons.

so that I book without a too large error margin

ok,Google? Matrix? How many?

Oh, are people going to fosdem?

(well, three, but I'm guessing one is not coming)

I'll extend just to Google, and ask for attendance numbers.

SaltyBones, yes, people are going to FOSDEM

SaltyBones, Lots of people, and for two days before as well.

Can I join some of your meetings?

https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22

SaltyBones: have a look there

SaltyBones, Please do.

I'd like to have us address the financials for a bit

Guus: shoot

Agreed Guus

a) apart from a van, we have no sponsors

b) see Matt's mail from earlier today

XSF will cover the diner, I assume. Will it also cover lunch at Cisco?

If there's no sponsors, I believe we should, yes.

Of course I'd prefer companies stepping up for sponsorship.

We could have individuals pay for themselves, but I'd prefer not to.

I'll try mine

Does the XSF also cover transportation to/from the dinner?

Generally, yes

Guus, Traditionally, yes.

(and, obviously, I'd prefer sponsorship, but if we cant find any...)

ok, thanks

I'll try to figure out how this works with Lunch at Cisco, offline.

nyco, you were going to arrange for dinner transportation, correct?

It is easy really

We pay at the register

dinner transportation is generally a few cabs

of course they'd have to be called in time

And generally what happens is that individuals (often Isode) end up paying for the cabs.

Which might not work so well this year.

we don't have an XSF credit/debit card I think, so someone will have to front?

Guus yes

Uber? taxi? coach?

I have no preference for a type of transportation.

We should arrange something ahead of time, after last year.

running will do, then

tell me your preferences

Anyway, in terms of sponsorship for the Summit, we could write an e-mail asking for sponsorship, like we did last time

email written to ESL

For what it's worth, I don't think it's ever been difficult for us to find sponsors - all we need to do is ask

For the more general topic, maybe we should discuss this next week in person

MattJ: right

I'll write that e-mail

anything else?

(not from me)

https://trello.com/c/vFYiyf9I/300-summit-sponsoring

please look at the commitment list? :)

there has been an Item For Discussion on Trello that has gone undiscussed: the surveying thing

can we either discuss or archive that?

https://trello.com/c/wIlPrAyC/258-consider-surveying-membership-to-work-out-what-the-issues-are-and-what-the-board-can-do-to-help

Indeed, it's been there for a few weeks, and I thought it would be part of the general priorities discussion

Does that make sense?

https://trello.com/c/8XwcLKzf/301-summit-dinner

might be a chicken/egg type of deal, but, sure.

a lot of effort, for what result?

if someone commits to this, thx, I will provide some support

All right.

ok

5. Date of Next

+1w, +1

;-)

that's the summit

I'm not sure if doing a meeting at the summit is useful

with our regular agenda, that is

I'd at the very least would want to be attending the summit at that hour

So I propose we do our next normal meeting in 2 weeks

I'm inclined to agree

perhaps we could do the prio thingy in the sidelines of the summit, but for the regular meeting, +2w would be my preference.

+2W sounds good to me

good

6. Close

Thanks all!

merci !

\o/

thank you

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

Thanks

And see most of you next time, of course!

;-)

next week that is

weather not super optimistic

Sigh. It's been almost a month and I haven't yet managed to reach stpeter. Maybe I need to switch to email

Ge0rG: usually the best option.

Ge0rG, or comment on random old issues on the xmpp.org repository :D

which, probably, is swithcing to email

jonasw: TBH I just didn't want to implement Data Forms in yaxim for preauth-IBR :<

Ge0rG, you don’t need to fully implement them, do you?

like with ad-hoc

more worrisome is that IBR doesn’t seem to define form field names for username and password

jonasw: if a XEP that has been deferred gets an implementation, will become again draft at least? Do you know?

SouL, no

it won’t

Oh

the state transition is Experimental -> Deferred, not Draft -> Deferred

to get a XEP from Deferred to Experimental, all it needs is an update by the author

(non-editoral update)

What if it does not need any update?

then the author can ask council to move it to Draft

for this it needs to pass through Last Call

Ah ok!

I don’t think that Draft needs to have implementations technically, but council will like it if it does

I will and then ask again..

😞

but advancing a XEP to Draft without implementations is likely to be a bad move; without implementations, there’s no deployment experience and there will likely be issues which should be fixed before Draft

Sorry jonasw, I said Draft but I wanted do say Experimental

So Experimental -> Deferred -> Experimental

My bad for causing confusion

I guess the case would be the same, vote again, like a ProtoXEP?

SouL, I gave you some feedback :)

(on list)

no, Deferred -> Experimental is purely procedural (just like Experimental -> Deferred) and does not need a vote.

if the author publishes an update on a Deferred XEP, it automatically becomes Experimental again, no vote needed.

jonasw: I see you sent some feedback, thank you, when it was submitted, there were not many comments on it. I will take a look, thanks for clearing things up too

is processing hints supposed to be deferred?

zinid, it was experimental before, it hasn’t been updated in 12 months, it gets deferred

there was some discussion around deprecating it, but I don’t think there has been a vote

SouL, you’re welcome! I didn’t see it when it went Experimental

jonasw, I know that it is deferred due to inactivity, I just wonder what council think about it

SouL, so this automated status change to Deferred is a good thing; it reminds the community that the XEP exists and something should be done about it.

zinid, we’ll see

yes, deferring due to inactivity is a good idea

hi there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16234057

it's a link to my blog to present new web framework feature

goffi: what's the title? when deep-linking, HN will downgrade the votes

ah, "Show HN: Decentralized web framework based on XMPP (Salut à Toi)" in https://news.ycombinator.com/newest

goffi, feature request for https://www.goffi.org/b/96207aea-9bd8-4333-a346-63638c041ef7/build-

click to expand should not be necessary when viewing a single post

It might just be me, but I didn't actually understand what the thing was that post was talking about (is it just web auth using your XMPP account?). Maybe link to the source or a tutorial or somewhere that provides more information?

It sounded intriguing though!

has anyone done anything like uh, imap over xmpp

moparisthebest, I think Salut á Toi has something along those lines

in what sense?

more like XMPP over imap though

well, my phone currently keeps 2 TCP connections open/idle, XMPP and IMAP IDLE

it would be handy if the xmpp app just passed new messages to the email app, and I only needed 1 connection :)

Tunnel them both over ssh

moparisthebest, why do you care?

Didn't GTalk have some protocol for notifying about new messages?

doesn't really solve the problem, imap idle has to refresh the connection every so often etc

jonasw, yea to be honest it's basically not a problem, just wondered if it'd been done before, I'm always surprised by random XEPs

jonasw: yes I know, it's not stable release yet, it will be done then

goffi, maybe a bad move to announce it on HN then?

but that’s just me

SamWhited: planing to write a tutorial too, but it takes time (and I have a paid job not related to XMPP)

moparisthebest: yes, we have SMTP and IMAP, not as a gateway but client side (to use Thunderbird to read your XMPP messages)

ah the opposite, still interesting goffi

note that it was before than Thunderbird actually read XMPP ;)

jonasw: well Show HN is exactly for that if I understood correctly

stuff advanced enough to try, but not necessarly finished and production ready

any way when I post to HN I don't expect it to reach first page :)

goffi, I don’t visit HN, so I have no idea :)

it might be interesting to just replace sending and recieving in an email client with doing that over xmpp (which at server side would just shove it off to a real imap/smtp server)

moparisthebest, no, it would not

you would always incur the factor 4/3 for base64-ing things

unless you map mime to xmpp with SHIM, whihc probably has its own set of interesting issues

it's all text based, why not shove it through un-encoded?

I /think/ that you can do 8-bit things in SMTP

oh actually it's first in "show" section (https://news.ycombinator.com/show)

moparisthebest, also, SMTP and IMAP are octet-based

not text-based

(like XML is)

moparisthebest: there is an email gateway somewhere in my TODO list

at least on the layer the application sees, XMPP is text-based (it has a well-defined encoding everywhere). in email, there’s no such thing (see the hacks you need to do to get unicode into a subject line)

jonasw, I mean you can send emails via SMTP with telnet, text based enough

of course, all of this could be solved in one way or another (e.g. by fully mapping MIME into XML somehow)

SMTP at least is not octet-based, it’s ASCII-based.

moparisthebest, telnet is byte-based too

You can’t use more than 7 bits per octet.

you can, with the 8BIT extension; but that’s not my point, really

it reads lines one by one etc etc

Hence the encoding monsters.

I think it'd be fairly straightforward, not sure

moparisthebest, that’s not text-based ;)

version #1 would just replace imap idle for push notifications

over xmpp

and commented by edhelas from Movim. But we didn't made a video to show how it's cool and never seen before :D

Link Mauve, Actually, IMAP is 8-bit clean, and ESMTP normally is with the extension. Both can also transfer binary (instead of, say, UTF-8) with (rare) extensions.

There's also a bunch of extensions to "Always UTF-8", roughly, as part of EAI, as I recall.

I know pretty much nothing about IMAP, this was about plain SMTP.

Thanks. :)

I’ll read about them.