-
moparisthebest
Whey is memberbot source code
-
moparisthebest
Where*
-
moparisthebest
I know I've seen it before but can't find it now
-
moparisthebest
Is it https://github.com/legastero/memberbot
-
moparisthebest
Or is there a newer version
-
jonasw
SamWhited, would you be more in favour of #559 if it were a separate XEP?
-
SaltyBones
ah, mostly the usual crowd ;)
-
jonasw
yupp
-
jonasw
consolidating protocol discussion here is good tho
- Ge0rG updated the already-complicated MUC self-message matching with another heuristic yesterday.
-
Ge0rG
If the sent message begins with the reflected message, followed by a newline, this must be a reflection from a "MUC" that splits multi-line messages. Yikes.
-
edhelas
damn, we reached XEP 400
-
SouL
:D
-
edhelas
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0404.html
-
Ge0rG
edhelas: that in-joke won't work for long any more
-
SouL
Haha :)
-
Ge0rG
unless we can convince the editors to skip over 404
-
Ge0rG
Or, even better, somebody prepares a Humorous "XEP-404: XEP Not Found" that will be put into the queue at the right moment
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, That's literally what I was in the process of typing.
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: that proposal or that XEP?
-
Dave Cridland
The idea.
-
Holger
.
-
jonasw
:
-
Zash
·:
-
SouL
:/
-
vanitasvitae
v
-
jonasw
.
-
zinid
ping
-
jonasw
pong!
-
Guus
🔫 (pang)
-
SouL
Holger, look what you have done >:[
-
zinid
vanitasvitae knows how to fight spam!
-
zinid
https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246
-
Guus
there's a XEP that describes that...
-
Ge0rG
I've asked for that feature a year ago, or maybe two, too :)
-
zinid
what feature? rendering captchas?
-
zinid
and why a client cannot generate captchas on its own?
-
Ge0rG
zinid: why should the client do that? what do you do with multiple clients?
-
Ge0rG
zinid: do you have to solve a captcha for each of my clients? I have five or six
-
Guus
XEP-0159 I think
-
zinid
Ge0rG, ah, I see
-
Guus
allowing a server to respond with a challenge to potential spimmers (and keeping track of who is or is not a potential spimmer)
-
zinid
well, this is trivial to implement in ejabberd
-
jonasw
{xep 0159}
-
Bunneh
jonasw: Spim-Blocking Control (Standards Track, Deferred, 2006-07-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0159.html
-
zinid
the question is what client will support this?
-
Ge0rG
none!
-
Guus
zinid: as soon as you build it, pretty much every client :)
-
zinid
Guus, I built it for IBR ages ago, still only minority of clients support it
-
Guus
I assume that's because IBR is either not used as much, or used in a more 'trusted' setting (of an internal network).
-
Guus
if it's easy for you to build, please consider adding it, at least as a configurable option?
-
Guus
it'll surely not hurt the spim battle.
-
Ge0rG
0159 depends on Privacy Lists, which are deprecated.
-
Guus
eternal fame will be your part.
-
Ge0rG
I have two dozens of pending subscription requests
-
Ge0rG
PARS should also be able to pass through that captcha
-
vanitasvitae
The way I imagine it doesnt require client support
-
Guus
vanitasvitae: surely, the initiator's client should support it?
-
Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: please add a remark regarding PARS
-
vanitasvitae
Ge0rG: what is pars?
-
vanitasvitae
Guus: nope, it could be implemented purely server side
-
Guus
vanitasvitae: at some point, a person needs to verify that there's a person, not a spambot. Where does that happen?
-
SouL
vanitasvitae, do you mean solving the captcha in the browser?
-
vanitasvitae
> https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2246
-
SouL
jabber.ru used to do that
-
zinid
SouL, for joining rooms, yes, that's standard ejabberd's feature
-
zinid
but you only need to solve it in browser if you have retarded client
-
zinid
normal clients render captcha just fine
-
SouL
Yeah, what I tried to say is that a link is provided too heh ^^
-
zinid
true
-
Guus
oh, right. Yeah, I'd also see the 'open link in browser' as a fallback for clients that are not compliant.
-
Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: PARS is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html
-
zinid
vanitasvitae, ok, I have assigned the issue to myself, will see what I can do
-
vanitasvitae
zinid: nice
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: there is still the technical challenge of not hosting the new XEP under xep-0404.html (leading zero)
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, I’m sure we can put a redirect from xep-404.html to xep-0404.html :)
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: the other way 'round would make more sense.
-
jonasw
and also be much more tricky
-
jonasw
I don’t want to mess with editor tooling on that level.
-
Ge0rG
don't think so
-
jonasw
maybe if it’s done at the end of the build stage
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: we could make XEP-404 work as a generic error page and serve it as that, then just blacklist 404.
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: wouldn't it suffice to create a xep-404.xml and build that?
-
jonasw
yeah, and then all tooling breaks because it expects filenames to have xep-%04d.html format.✎ -
Ge0rG
how is the "next autoincrement value to be used" determined?
-
jonasw
yeah, and then all tooling breaks because it expects filenames to have xep-%04d.xml format. ✏
-
jonasw
max(accepted_xeps.keys()), actually
-
Ge0rG
a rewrite rule on the server, that doesnt do 30x
-
Ge0rG
hm. oka
-
Ge0rG
+y
-
jonasw
yeah, that’d work of course
-
jonasw
that’s kinda what I meant by redirect :)
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/tools/accept.py#L78 to be specific ;)
-
jonasw
but that can easily be overridden once to avoid 404 to be created when 403 is the newest one.
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: I'm sure max() will work out properly if there is a xep-404
-
jonasw
(FWIW, I would’ve preferred to avoid relying on %04d, but taking all XML or xep-*.xml files in the directory did wrong things because of templates and such)
-
Ge0rG
yeah
-
jonasw
I noticed that the copyright in the XEP page headers is still "© 1999 – 2017 XMPP Standards Foundation. SEE LEGAL NOTICES."
-
jonasw
do we want this to be "1999 – 2018" on all the xeps?
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: yes please
-
Ge0rG
But you might want to get Board approval for that.
-
SamWhited
nah, then it'll sort as 404 not 260 and be way higher than the other xeps (assuming python where leading 0 is octal)
-
jonasw
SamWhited, not in python3 anymore ;)
-
jonasw
(in python3, 0123 is simply syntax error)
-
SamWhited
oh, weird
-
SamWhited
nothing to do here then
-
jonasw
SamWhited, would you be more in favour of #559 if it were a separate XEP?
-
SamWhited
I'm not sure, I need to think over how the change will affect things (assuming that's the muc change)
-
jonasw
yah, it’s the MUC change
-
Ge0rG
This is not PHP, where "0280" parses as 2.
-
MattJ
and is == to TRUE, FALSE, "2", "0" and "sausages"
-
nyco
Test C
-
jonasw
ohai nyco
-
nyco
Test M
-
intosi
So it's not vegan, much like the new notes?
-
nyco
seems to work for now
-
ralphm
set the topic to
XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
MattJ
intosi, I've not tasted either of them
-
nyco
these days, I lose messages, got delays
-
ralphm
0. Welcome & Agenda
-
ralphm
Who do we have today?
-
nyco
o/
-
Guus
me
-
MattJ
nyco, then I suggest you use a different server/client, otherwise it will be hard to participate...
-
MattJ
I'm here
-
Martin
I'm here
-
nyco
it would be nice if XMPP worked fine...
-
MattJ
Working fine for me, but anyway...
-
nyco
for me
-
ralphm
Full house, splendid
-
nyco
it seems you don't receive my messages in one-to-one chat
-
Guus
(that's a first, I think?)
-
ralphm
Any additional topics for the agenda?
-
MattJ
None here
-
jonasw
ralphm, yeah, whether I shall update the copyright notice on XEPs with this year.
-
jonasw
(it currently reads "© 1999 – 2017")
-
Guus
I've got nothing that's not already on Trello.
-
nyco
please add the card
-
ralphm
I don't think copyrights work like that
-
jonasw
I have no idea either
-
jonasw
but having not the current year there looks weird
-
jonasw
cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html
-
ralphm
ok, putting that in later
-
Guus
(not sure if that's up to board?)
-
jonasw
Guus, me neither, but it feels boardish
-
jonasw
(and Ge0rG from council said so :))
-
ralphm
1. Board priorities
-
ralphm
I believe we still need to schedule a video conference on this, no?
-
nyco
yep
-
nyco
that's on me
-
nyco
when's best? time day of week what week?
-
Guus
let's schedule that via mail?
-
nyco
maybe not this week, nor next
-
nyco
ok
-
nyco
I'll send a poll
-
ralphm
great
-
MattJ
+1
-
nyco
if I had your nogo, that could help
-
nyco
if any
-
Guus
perhaps combine with summit?
-
nyco
good question
-
ralphm
Guus: this was indeed suggested, but one of us isn't going to be there physically
-
nyco
I feel like those discussions would benefit a lot from members but I fear the crowd will be too large for everyone to be heard
-
Guus
ralphm: perhaps one joining in remotely?
-
ralphm
indeed
-
nyco
that said, this discussion would also benefit from non-members, that is the rest of the world
-
Guus
nyco: to clarify, I was not suggesting to discuss this during the summit itself, but in the evening or something.
-
Guus
wiht just board members.
-
ralphm
Let's continue this on list then
-
nyco
that's two more hours of work, I guess people wanna have beer
-
Guus
on list. :)
-
ralphm
2. Bus Factor Bank Account
-
ralphm
Did you discuss this last week?
-
nyco
yep
-
Guus
I still would like to know what the bank procedures are on this. Haven't talked to Peter about this in a couple of weeks though.
-
ralphm
So we need to track him down on that, ok.
-
Guus
if bank procedures are adequate, I'd prefer not to add individuals.
- ralphm nods
-
ralphm
3. Copyright statements on XEPs
-
Dave Cridland
My suggestion on copyrights would be to claim the present year always.
-
Guus
if all our current XEPs list an end date in 2017, I'd simply update that to 2018.
-
ralphm
agreed
-
Guus
that said: I'm not sure how these are supposed to work.
-
ralphm
I think that's usual practice. Whether it holds up in court is another mattre.
-
ralphm
matter
-
Dave Cridland
ralphm, It only matters after what, 75 years? I think we're safe.
-
ralphm
Dave Cridland: :-D
-
Dave Cridland
ralphm, Might want to make a note to revisit after we're all dead.
-
Guus
I'd say: make it 2018.
-
ralphm
noted
-
ralphm
4. AOB
-
Dave Cridland
Summit status?
-
nyco
Summit?
-
Guus
You're leaving out the items for discussion?
-
nyco
I need to book the dinner
-
nyco
same place as usual? auberge bretonne?
-
nyco
if no opposition, I'm on it
-
Guus
works for me.
-
nyco
consider it done
-
nyco
what else?
-
Dave Cridland
I suggested to Guus that we might want to specifically seek out people to invite. The Google open source office people might be around, for example.
-
Guus
financials-wise, I have questions
-
Guus
Ah, I thought you ment to invite our GSoC students.
-
Guus
but yeah, I'd be in favour of both.
-
MattJ
Likewise
-
Dave Cridland
There's probably other folks we might invite, if we think about it. Maybe even the Matrix folks. If only so we can stick them with the bill.
-
ralphm
hah
-
nyco
good idea, they may already have a plan, they got a company, a community
-
nyco
but yeah we can merge
-
ralphm
anything else here?
-
nyco
any RTC
-
nyco
nope
-
Guus
Shall I extend the invitation to Google?
-
ralphm
Guus: please do
-
Guus
+ students?
-
nyco
+1
-
nyco
we gotta keep the number acceptable
-
Guus
students are two persons.
-
nyco
so that I book without a too large error margin
-
nyco
ok,Google? Matrix? How many?
-
SaltyBones
Oh, are people going to fosdem?
-
Guus
(well, three, but I'm guessing one is not coming)
-
Guus
I'll extend just to Google, and ask for attendance numbers.
-
MattJ
SaltyBones, yes, people are going to FOSDEM
-
Dave Cridland
SaltyBones, Lots of people, and for two days before as well.
-
SaltyBones
Can I join some of your meetings?
-
ralphm
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_22
-
ralphm
SaltyBones: have a look there
-
Dave Cridland
SaltyBones, Please do.
-
Guus
I'd like to have us address the financials for a bit
-
ralphm
Guus: shoot
-
Martin
Agreed Guus
-
Guus
a) apart from a van, we have no sponsors
-
Guus
b) see Matt's mail from earlier today
-
Guus
XSF will cover the diner, I assume. Will it also cover lunch at Cisco?
-
ralphm
If there's no sponsors, I believe we should, yes.
-
ralphm
Of course I'd prefer companies stepping up for sponsorship.
-
Guus
We could have individuals pay for themselves, but I'd prefer not to.
-
nyco
I'll try mine
-
Guus
Does the XSF also cover transportation to/from the dinner?
-
MattJ
Generally, yes
-
Dave Cridland
Guus, Traditionally, yes.
-
Guus
(and, obviously, I'd prefer sponsorship, but if we cant find any...)
-
Guus
ok, thanks
-
Guus
I'll try to figure out how this works with Lunch at Cisco, offline.
-
Guus
nyco, you were going to arrange for dinner transportation, correct?
-
ralphm
It is easy really
-
ralphm
We pay at the register
-
ralphm
dinner transportation is generally a few cabs
-
ralphm
of course they'd have to be called in time
-
Kev
And generally what happens is that individuals (often Isode) end up paying for the cabs.
-
Kev
Which might not work so well this year.
-
Guus
we don't have an XSF credit/debit card I think, so someone will have to front?
-
nyco
Guus yes
-
nyco
Uber? taxi? coach?
-
Guus
I have no preference for a type of transportation.
-
Dave Cridland
We should arrange something ahead of time, after last year.
-
nyco
running will do, then
-
nyco
tell me your preferences
-
ralphm
Anyway, in terms of sponsorship for the Summit, we could write an e-mail asking for sponsorship, like we did last time
-
nyco
email written to ESL
-
MattJ
For what it's worth, I don't think it's ever been difficult for us to find sponsors - all we need to do is ask
-
ralphm
For the more general topic, maybe we should discuss this next week in person
-
ralphm
MattJ: right
-
ralphm
I'll write that e-mail
-
ralphm
anything else?
-
Guus
(not from me)
-
nyco
https://trello.com/c/vFYiyf9I/300-summit-sponsoring
-
Guus
please look at the commitment list? :)
-
Guus
there has been an Item For Discussion on Trello that has gone undiscussed: the surveying thing
-
Guus
can we either discuss or archive that?
-
Guus
https://trello.com/c/wIlPrAyC/258-consider-surveying-membership-to-work-out-what-the-issues-are-and-what-the-board-can-do-to-help
-
ralphm
Indeed, it's been there for a few weeks, and I thought it would be part of the general priorities discussion
-
ralphm
Does that make sense?
-
nyco
https://trello.com/c/8XwcLKzf/301-summit-dinner
-
Guus
might be a chicken/egg type of deal, but, sure.
-
nyco
a lot of effort, for what result?
-
nyco
if someone commits to this, thx, I will provide some support
-
ralphm
All right.
-
nyco
ok
-
ralphm
5. Date of Next
-
nyco
+1w, +1
-
nyco
;-)
-
Guus
that's the summit
-
ralphm
I'm not sure if doing a meeting at the summit is useful
-
ralphm
with our regular agenda, that is
-
Guus
I'd at the very least would want to be attending the summit at that hour
-
ralphm
So I propose we do our next normal meeting in 2 weeks
-
MattJ
I'm inclined to agree
-
Guus
perhaps we could do the prio thingy in the sidelines of the summit, but for the regular meeting, +2w would be my preference.
-
Martin
+2W sounds good to me
-
ralphm
good
-
ralphm
6. Close
-
ralphm
Thanks all!
-
nyco
merci !
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
jonasw
\o/
-
Guus
thank you
-
ralphm
set the topic to
XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
-
MattJ
Thanks
-
ralphm
And see most of you next time, of course!
-
nyco
;-)
-
ralphm
next week that is
-
nyco
weather not super optimistic
-
Ge0rG
Sigh. It's been almost a month and I haven't yet managed to reach stpeter. Maybe I need to switch to email
-
intosi
Ge0rG: usually the best option.
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, or comment on random old issues on the xmpp.org repository :D
-
jonasw
which, probably, is swithcing to email
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: TBH I just didn't want to implement Data Forms in yaxim for preauth-IBR :<
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, you don’t need to fully implement them, do you?
-
jonasw
like with ad-hoc
-
jonasw
more worrisome is that IBR doesn’t seem to define form field names for username and password
-
SouL
jonasw: if a XEP that has been deferred gets an implementation, will become again draft at least? Do you know?
-
jonasw
SouL, no
-
jonasw
it won’t
-
SouL
Oh
-
jonasw
the state transition is Experimental -> Deferred, not Draft -> Deferred
-
jonasw
to get a XEP from Deferred to Experimental, all it needs is an update by the author
-
jonasw
(non-editoral update)
-
SouL
What if it does not need any update?
-
jonasw
then the author can ask council to move it to Draft
-
jonasw
for this it needs to pass through Last Call
-
SouL
Ah ok!
-
jonasw
I don’t think that Draft needs to have implementations technically, but council will like it if it does
-
SouL
I will and then ask again..
-
SouL
😞
-
jonasw
but advancing a XEP to Draft without implementations is likely to be a bad move; without implementations, there’s no deployment experience and there will likely be issues which should be fixed before Draft
-
SouL
Sorry jonasw, I said Draft but I wanted do say Experimental
-
SouL
So Experimental -> Deferred -> Experimental
-
SouL
My bad for causing confusion
-
SouL
I guess the case would be the same, vote again, like a ProtoXEP?
-
jonasw
SouL, I gave you some feedback :)
-
jonasw
(on list)
-
jonasw
no, Deferred -> Experimental is purely procedural (just like Experimental -> Deferred) and does not need a vote.
-
jonasw
if the author publishes an update on a Deferred XEP, it automatically becomes Experimental again, no vote needed.
-
SouL
jonasw: I see you sent some feedback, thank you, when it was submitted, there were not many comments on it. I will take a look, thanks for clearing things up too
-
zinid
is processing hints supposed to be deferred?
-
jonasw
zinid, it was experimental before, it hasn’t been updated in 12 months, it gets deferred
-
jonasw
there was some discussion around deprecating it, but I don’t think there has been a vote
-
jonasw
SouL, you’re welcome! I didn’t see it when it went Experimental
-
zinid
jonasw, I know that it is deferred due to inactivity, I just wonder what council think about it
-
jonasw
SouL, so this automated status change to Deferred is a good thing; it reminds the community that the XEP exists and something should be done about it.
-
jonasw
zinid, we’ll see
-
zinid
yes, deferring due to inactivity is a good idea
-
goffi
hi there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16234057
-
goffi
it's a link to my blog to present new web framework feature
-
Ge0rG
goffi: what's the title? when deep-linking, HN will downgrade the votes
-
Ge0rG
ah, "Show HN: Decentralized web framework based on XMPP (Salut à Toi)" in https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
-
jonasw
goffi, feature request for https://www.goffi.org/b/96207aea-9bd8-4333-a346-63638c041ef7/build-
-
jonasw
click to expand should not be necessary when viewing a single post
-
SamWhited
It might just be me, but I didn't actually understand what the thing was that post was talking about (is it just web auth using your XMPP account?). Maybe link to the source or a tutorial or somewhere that provides more information?
-
SamWhited
It sounded intriguing though!
-
moparisthebest
has anyone done anything like uh, imap over xmpp
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, I think Salut á Toi has something along those lines
-
Zash
in what sense?
-
jonasw
more like XMPP over imap though
-
moparisthebest
well, my phone currently keeps 2 TCP connections open/idle, XMPP and IMAP IDLE
-
moparisthebest
it would be handy if the xmpp app just passed new messages to the email app, and I only needed 1 connection :)
-
Zash
Tunnel them both over ssh
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, why do you care?
-
Zash
Didn't GTalk have some protocol for notifying about new messages?
-
moparisthebest
doesn't really solve the problem, imap idle has to refresh the connection every so often etc
-
moparisthebest
jonasw, yea to be honest it's basically not a problem, just wondered if it'd been done before, I'm always surprised by random XEPs
-
goffi
jonasw: yes I know, it's not stable release yet, it will be done then
-
jonasw
goffi, maybe a bad move to announce it on HN then?
-
jonasw
but that’s just me
-
goffi
SamWhited: planing to write a tutorial too, but it takes time (and I have a paid job not related to XMPP)
-
goffi
moparisthebest: yes, we have SMTP and IMAP, not as a gateway but client side (to use Thunderbird to read your XMPP messages)
-
moparisthebest
ah the opposite, still interesting goffi
-
goffi
note that it was before than Thunderbird actually read XMPP ;)
-
goffi
jonasw: well Show HN is exactly for that if I understood correctly
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goffi
stuff advanced enough to try, but not necessarly finished and production ready
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goffi
any way when I post to HN I don't expect it to reach first page :)
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jonasw
goffi, I don’t visit HN, so I have no idea :)
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moparisthebest
it might be interesting to just replace sending and recieving in an email client with doing that over xmpp (which at server side would just shove it off to a real imap/smtp server)
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jonasw
moparisthebest, no, it would not
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jonasw
you would always incur the factor 4/3 for base64-ing things
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jonasw
unless you map mime to xmpp with SHIM, whihc probably has its own set of interesting issues
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moparisthebest
it's all text based, why not shove it through un-encoded?
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jonasw
I /think/ that you can do 8-bit things in SMTP
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goffi
oh actually it's first in "show" section (https://news.ycombinator.com/show)
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jonasw
moparisthebest, also, SMTP and IMAP are octet-based
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jonasw
not text-based
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jonasw
(like XML is)
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goffi
moparisthebest: there is an email gateway somewhere in my TODO list
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jonasw
at least on the layer the application sees, XMPP is text-based (it has a well-defined encoding everywhere). in email, there’s no such thing (see the hacks you need to do to get unicode into a subject line)
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moparisthebest
jonasw, I mean you can send emails via SMTP with telnet, text based enough
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jonasw
of course, all of this could be solved in one way or another (e.g. by fully mapping MIME into XML somehow)
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Link Mauve
SMTP at least is not octet-based, it’s ASCII-based.
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jonasw
moparisthebest, telnet is byte-based too
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Link Mauve
You can’t use more than 7 bits per octet.
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jonasw
you can, with the 8BIT extension; but that’s not my point, really
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moparisthebest
it reads lines one by one etc etc
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Link Mauve
Hence the encoding monsters.
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moparisthebest
I think it'd be fairly straightforward, not sure
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jonasw
moparisthebest, that’s not text-based ;)
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moparisthebest
version #1 would just replace imap idle for push notifications
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moparisthebest
over xmpp
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goffi
and commented by edhelas from Movim. But we didn't made a video to show how it's cool and never seen before :D
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Dave Cridland
Link Mauve, Actually, IMAP is 8-bit clean, and ESMTP normally is with the extension. Both can also transfer binary (instead of, say, UTF-8) with (rare) extensions.
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Dave Cridland
There's also a bunch of extensions to "Always UTF-8", roughly, as part of EAI, as I recall.
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Link Mauve
I know pretty much nothing about IMAP, this was about plain SMTP.
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Link Mauve
Thanks. :)
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Link Mauve
I’ll read about them.