XSF Discussion - 2018-01-26

  1. jjrh has left
  2. jjrh has left
  3. moparisthebest has left
  4. Zash has left
  5. SamWhited has left
  6. SamWhited has joined
  7. uc has joined
  8. moparisthebest has joined
  9. la|r|ma has left
  10. vanitasvitae has left
  11. lumi has joined
  12. SamWhited has left
  13. SamWhited has joined
  14. jjrh has left
  15. lskdjf has joined
  16. Steve Kille has left
  17. uc has joined
  18. Steve Kille has joined
  19. tux has joined
  20. tux has joined
  21. jjrh has left
  22. jjrh has left
  23. SamWhited has left
  24. Dave Cridland has left
  25. boothj5 has left
  26. vanitasvitae has left
  27. boothj5 has joined
  28. jere has left
  29. jere has joined
  30. hannes has left
  31. hannes has joined
  32. la|r|ma has left
  33. uc has joined
  34. moparisthebest has left
  35. la|r|ma has left
  36. jere has left
  37. Dave Cridland has left
  38. Dave Cridland has left
  39. Dave Cridland has left
  40. Dave Cridland has left
  41. Dave Cridland has left
  42. suzyo has joined
  43. Dave Cridland has left
  44. goffi has joined
  45. moparisthebest has joined
  46. zinid has left
  47. suzyo has joined
  48. zinid has left
  49. hannes has joined
  50. tux has left
  51. tux has joined
  52. ralphm has left
  53. hannes has joined
  54. ralphm has joined
  55. moparisthebest has left
  56. ralphm has left
  57. ralphm has joined
  58. ralphm has left
  59. Tobias has left
  60. Tobias has joined
  61. moparisthebest has joined
  62. ralphm has joined
  63. suzyo has joined
  64. hannes has joined
  65. hannes has joined
  66. ralphm has joined
  67. SaltyBones has joined
  68. Zash has left
  69. uc has joined
  70. SaltyBones has left
  71. ralphm has left
  72. suzyo has joined
  73. uc has joined
  74. boothj5 has left
  75. boothj5 has joined
  76. Dave Cridland has left
  77. Syndace has left
  78. Syndace has joined
  79. hannes has joined
  80. uc has joined
  81. Steve Kille has left
  82. Steve Kille has left
  83. moparisthebest has joined
  84. daniel has joined
  85. Steve Kille has joined
  86. boothj5 has left
  87. daniel has left
  88. suzyo has joined
  89. jubalh has joined
  90. Steve Kille has left
  91. uc has joined
  92. ralphm has joined
  93. Ge0rG Fortunately, MUC is easy to implement. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Matching_Your_Reflected_Message
  94. Martin has joined
  95. uc has joined
  96. ralphm has left
  97. Alex has joined
  98. goffi Do we have any XEP/way to do item ordering beside using a specific element (e.g. <order>123</order>) and a MAM query?
  99. goffi I don't think so, but just in case I've missed something
  100. lskdjf has joined
  101. ralphm has joined
  102. Martin has left
  103. Martin has joined
  104. uc has joined
  105. sonny has joined
  106. jubalh has left
  107. suzyo has joined
  108. blabla has left
  109. Martin has left
  110. jubalh has joined
  111. jubalh has left
  112. jubalh has joined
  113. Martin has joined
  114. blabla has left
  115. ralphm has left
  116. jubalh has joined
  117. jubalh has joined
  118. ralphm has left
  119. uc has joined
  120. uc has joined
  121. blabla has joined
  122. moparisthebest has joined
  123. jubalh has left
  124. uc has joined
  125. uc has joined
  126. Guus has left
  127. Guus has left
  128. Alex has left
  129. jere has joined
  130. uc has joined
  131. nyco has left
  132. ralphm has joined
  133. vanitasvitae has left
  134. uc has joined
  135. remko has joined
  136. jubalh has joined
  137. nyco has left
  138. vanitasvitae has joined
  139. jubalh has left
  140. uc has joined
  141. lskdjf has joined
  142. lskdjf has joined
  143. ralphm has joined
  144. uc has joined
  145. Dave Cridland has left
  146. ralphm has left
  147. zinid has left
  148. la|r|ma has joined
  149. SaltyBones has joined
  150. ralphm has left
  151. suzyo has joined
  152. Martin has left
  153. lumi has joined
  154. boothj5 has joined
  155. Alex has joined
  156. efrit has left
  157. boothj5 has left
  158. remko has left
  159. jere has joined
  160. lumi has left
  161. ralphm has left
  162. lskdjf has joined
  163. moparisthebest has joined
  164. remko has joined
  165. hannes has joined
  166. moparisthebest has joined
  167. remko has left
  168. lskdjf has joined
  169. remko has joined
  170. jonasw has left
  171. Martin has joined
  172. sonny has joined
  173. bra has left
  174. bra has joined
  175. mimi89999 has joined
  176. ralphm has joined
  177. sonny has joined
  178. tux has left
  179. Alex has left
  180. Alex has joined
  181. Martin has left
  182. moparisthebest has left
  183. moparisthebest has left
  184. moparisthebest has joined
  185. moparisthebest has left
  186. moparisthebest has left
  187. moparisthebest has left
  188. moparisthebest has joined
  189. moparisthebest has joined
  190. moparisthebest has joined
  191. moparisthebest has left
  192. moparisthebest has joined
  193. moparisthebest has joined
  194. moparisthebest has left
  195. moparisthebest has joined
  196. Tobias has joined
  197. moparisthebest has joined
  198. moparisthebest has joined
  199. moparisthebest has left
  200. sonny has left
  201. moparisthebest has joined
  202. moparisthebest has left
  203. moparisthebest has joined
  204. Tobias has joined
  205. moparisthebest has joined
  206. moparisthebest has left
  207. moparisthebest has joined
  208. moparisthebest has left
  209. moparisthebest has joined
  210. moparisthebest has left
  211. moparisthebest has joined
  212. moparisthebest has left
  213. moparisthebest has joined
  214. moparisthebest has left
  215. moparisthebest has joined
  216. moparisthebest has left
  217. moparisthebest has joined
  218. moparisthebest has left
  219. moparisthebest has joined
  220. moparisthebest has left
  221. moparisthebest has joined
  222. moparisthebest has left
  223. moparisthebest has joined
  224. moparisthebest has joined
  225. moparisthebest has joined
  226. moparisthebest has joined
  227. moparisthebest has left
  228. moparisthebest has joined
  229. moparisthebest has left
  230. moparisthebest has joined
  231. moparisthebest has joined
  232. moparisthebest has left
  233. moparisthebest has joined
  234. moparisthebest has joined
  235. moparisthebest has joined
  236. moparisthebest has joined
  237. moparisthebest has joined
  238. moparisthebest has joined
  239. moparisthebest has left
  240. moparisthebest has left
  241. moparisthebest has left
  242. moparisthebest has joined
  243. moparisthebest has joined
  244. moparisthebest has joined
  245. Martin has left
  246. moparisthebest has left
  247. moparisthebest has joined
  248. moparisthebest has left
  249. moparisthebest has joined
  250. moparisthebest has left
  251. moparisthebest has joined
  252. moparisthebest has left
  253. moparisthebest has joined
  254. moparisthebest has left
  255. moparisthebest has left
  256. moparisthebest has joined
  257. moparisthebest has joined
  258. moparisthebest has joined
  259. moparisthebest has left
  260. moparisthebest has joined
  261. moparisthebest has left
  262. moparisthebest has left
  263. moparisthebest has left
  264. moparisthebest has joined
  265. moparisthebest has joined
  266. moparisthebest has left
  267. moparisthebest has left
  268. moparisthebest has joined
  269. moparisthebest has left
  270. moparisthebest has left
  271. bra has left
  272. bra has joined
  273. Martin has joined
  274. blabla has joined
  275. jjrh has left
  276. moparisthebest has left
  277. moparisthebest has left
  278. moparisthebest has left
  279. moparisthebest has left
  280. moparisthebest has joined
  281. moparisthebest has left
  282. moparisthebest has joined
  283. moparisthebest has left
  284. moparisthebest has joined
  285. moparisthebest has left
  286. moparisthebest has left
  287. moparisthebest has joined
  288. moparisthebest has left
  289. moparisthebest has left
  290. moparisthebest has left
  291. moparisthebest has left
  292. moparisthebest has left
  293. moparisthebest has joined
  294. moparisthebest has left
  295. moparisthebest has joined
  296. moparisthebest has left
  297. moparisthebest has left
  298. moparisthebest has joined
  299. moparisthebest has joined
  300. moparisthebest has left
  301. moparisthebest has left
  302. moparisthebest has left
  303. zinid has left
  304. jjrh has left
  305. SaltyBones So, why is it that a group chat with jabber doesn't give me the messages that I missed when I come back online?
  306. SaltyBones It seems there are some related mechanisms in place.
  307. MattJ There are two mechanisms for that
  308. SaltyBones And of course for some sorts of chat rooms in doesn't really make sense...
  309. moparisthebest SaltyBones: it does if mam is enabled on the muc
  310. jonasw moparisthebest, and the client supports it.
  311. SaltyBones *and you don't want crypto*
  312. jonasw that’s false
  313. moparisthebest SaltyBones: nope works fine with crypto
  314. jonasw OMEMO should work fine with archives
  315. SaltyBones That's what I heard. :)
  316. jere has joined
  317. jonasw OTR won’t
  318. moparisthebest Also pgp
  319. jonasw gpg too, yes
  320. moparisthebest Otr doesn't work in mucs at all
  321. SaltyBones jonasw, but then the archive will contain the decrypted messages or something, right?
  322. moparisthebest No
  323. jonasw SaltyBones, no
  324. SaltyBones Hm.
  325. SaltyBones So what you're saying is: Everything should totally work. :)
  326. jonasw iff both client and server support MAM
  327. moparisthebest and it's enabled on the muc
  328. SaltyBones I am currently trying to figure that out.
  329. SaltyBones But neither gajim nor conversations seem to be very helpful. :)
  330. zinid And what about forward secrecy?
  331. SaltyBones zinid, probably broken, cannot imagine any other way
  332. moparisthebest no, that depends on encryption method
  333. moparisthebest none with pgp, works as expected with omemo
  334. SaltyBones are there any clients that can display if a muc has mam or is that serverside info only?
  335. moparisthebest that is, each device can decrypt each message exactly once
  336. moparisthebest clients know, not sure if any display
  337. zinid How will you decode a message from archive encrypted with forward secrecy?
  338. moparisthebest (they have to know to know whether they can mam query or not)
  339. SaltyBones wait is mam not the same as server side history?
  340. moparisthebest as MattJ said there are 2 methods so depending what you mean probably not
  341. moparisthebest you want mam though, the other isn't guaranteed to be complete
  342. SaltyBones there are two MAMs?
  343. jjrh has left
  344. Ge0rG who wants forward secrecy anyway?
  345. Ge0rG it's even worse than cryptographic deniability.
  346. moparisthebest dissidents so I hear
  347. suzyo has joined
  348. SaltyBones Ge0rG, almost nobody but a lot of people want it on principle, including me. :)
  349. moparisthebest forward secrecy is actually useful unlike deniability imho
  350. Ge0rG SaltyBones: a lot of people have no clue.
  351. MattJ SaltyBones, method #1 is a simple cache of recent messages in the room. The MUC tends to send it to you by default, though clients can (and do) filter it
  352. Ge0rG https://dymaxion.org/essays/pleasestop.html - "Please Stop Writing Secure Messaging Tools"
  353. moparisthebest point being it works fine with muc + mam
  354. moparisthebest Ge0rG, clearly written by NSA plant
  355. MattJ SaltyBones, it's almost universal, but doesn't actually need client support - the recent messages are always just sent to you (most servers default to 20 or so)
  356. SaltyBones Ge0rG, I would agree if I thought that one of them was good enough.
  357. moparisthebest s/NSA/GOV_OF_YOUR_CHOICE_HERE/
  358. MattJ SaltyBones, which is enough to get some context on an ongoing conversation
  359. SaltyBones MattJ, yeah, that mechanism is pretty obvious in gajim...
  360. Ge0rG OMEMO is bad because you can't bind a cryptographic identity to a JID in any strong way.
  361. MattJ SaltyBones, there's a second method (MAM), which requires explicit client and server (i.e. MUC server) support, and supports fine-grained sync, ensuring that you can achieve a full sync of all messages that happened while you were out of the room
  362. jonasw MattJ, unless the server keeps CSN and other useless things in the history ;-)
  363. MattJ One client's useless is another client's treasure
  364. SaltyBones Ge0rG, I think that article is mostly crap but I would be interested in discussing. ;)
  365. jjrh has left
  366. moparisthebest > Ge0rG: OMEMO is bad because you can't bind a cryptographic identity to a JID in any strong way.
  367. moparisthebest uh and what ways do allow you to do that?
  368. moparisthebest I think, none actually
  369. Ge0rG moparisthebest: things like TOX, where your ID is your public key
  370. moparisthebest that's fine if you are talking about an entirely different protocol
  371. Zash Something something triangle
  372. moparisthebest that eats battery and is unsuitable for mobile
  373. SaltyBones IBE requires a trusted third party which I find generally undesirable
  374. Ge0rG Zash: something something blockchain
  375. SaltyBones BLOCKCHAIN!
  376. SaltyBones The funny thing is, blockchain derivates are actually usefull for PKI
  377. moparisthebest I can feel my synergies aligning already, lets get an IPO and some angel funding asap
  378. SaltyBones Hm...I am totally in the mood for discussing everything but I have to get some more work done. :/
  379. jjrh has left
  380. zinid moparisthebest: I think it's possible to avoid battery consumption with help from very simple relays
  381. moparisthebest I call those xmpp servers :P
  382. moparisthebest though, not simple
  383. zinid moparisthebest: "simple"
  384. Ge0rG https://www.wired.com/story/mobilecoin-cryptocurrency/
  385. uc has joined
  386. moparisthebest let me fix that title s/The Creator of Signal Has a Plan to Fix Cryptocurrency/The Creator of Signal Has a Plan to Finish Construction of His Money Fort/
  387. lskdjf has left
  388. SaltyBones cryptocurrencies are bullshit :p
  389. zinid moparisthebest: but I'm told he is a hero, you're just jealous
  390. lskdjf has left
  391. lskdjf has left
  392. lskdjf has left
  393. suzyo has joined
  394. lskdjf has left
  395. Ge0rG moparisthebest, SaltyBones: seriously though: OMEMO is attempting to work around the problem that JIDs are not cryptographic entities, and there will never be a perfect alignment of them.
  396. Ge0rG if you want E2EE without meta data leaks, XMPP is not the right tool. Have a look at something like https://briarproject.org/ instead.
  397. Ge0rG If you want XMPP, just give up hiding your metadata and accept reality.
  398. Ge0rG And once you've realized that, the added benefit of E2EE is minuscule.
  399. valo has joined
  400. SaltyBones The benefit of e2e is miniscule when there is metadata leakage?
  401. SaltyBones I completely disagree. :)
  402. lskdjf has left
  403. ralphm has left
  404. zinid has left
  405. jubalh has joined
  406. jonasw I’d argue that the benefit of e2ee should be miniscule since ideally we had friends&family servers exclusively
  407. MattJ Agreed
  408. MattJ I don't think it's completely pointless in any scenario, but trusted servers buys you a whole lot more
  409. SaltyBones That's an interesting point...
  410. SouL This will not be the case, at least in a not-soon future D:
  411. MattJ On the other hand some people really value anonymity, which goes in completely the other direction - we should just have an internet full of servers, random JIDs and use E2EE for identity proof and encryption
  412. SaltyBones Given that most murders are committed by spouses or whatever maybe friends and family servers should be less trusted. :)
  413. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so if I know my wife's password and lock screen pattern, she's still safe, right?
  414. tux has joined
  415. Ge0rG also related: https://dymaxion.org/essays/usecases.html
  416. SaltyBones It's not a good idea to argue against securing one part of a system because another part of the system might be insecure. If your wife has an affair maybe she will change her lock screen pattern...
  417. vanitasvitae has joined
  418. Ge0rG SaltyBones: in that case I can beat her up. (playing the devil's advocate here, obviously)
  419. Ge0rG SaltyBones: also I can still see which JIDs are on her roster.
  420. Ge0rG "So, who is sexy_patrick69@swissjabber.li?"
  421. SaltyBones Come on, these are all incredibly weak arguments that you can immediately invalidate by yourself.
  422. ralphm has joined
  423. SaltyBones This is not a useful discussion. :)
  424. SaltyBones How do you know you have to beat her up? Just because she changed her lock screen?
  425. Ge0rG SaltyBones: sure
  426. SaltyBones Maybe the guy she s seeing is a colleague from work and it s perfectly normal for them to talk
  427. Ge0rG SaltyBones: how much do you know about abusive partners?
  428. SaltyBones Abusive partners are not the only adversaries and abusive partners probably also come in all sorts of degrees
  429. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so you don't even know the attacker model you want protection from?
  430. SaltyBones I trust my co-admin not to read my messages I still prefer that he simply cannot when I use omemo
  431. boothj5 has joined
  432. SouL SaltyBones, yeah, I agree.
  433. SouL Even if I don't use OMEMO myself
  434. SaltyBones I have a sufficiently good idea of my attacker model but it's not formally defined ;)
  435. Ge0rG SaltyBones: I don't say that E2EE is generally bad. I merely say that it has a cost attached, and that cost is inability to restore archives, various synchronisation problems (why can't I receive messages) and multi-client woes.
  436. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so for the general audience, OMEMO does more harm than good.
  437. SaltyBones and I also like that even if my server gets owned I can still send account data and scans of legal documents to people without worrying where they might end up
  438. Ge0rG And I even haven't started to talk about the two incompatible flavors of OMEMO.
  439. SaltyBones Ge0rG, oh I completely agree that omemo isn't great but omemo is an implementation of e2e not the definition.
  440. vanitasvitae has left
  441. vanitasvitae has left
  442. SaltyBones Actually, gpg probably has much better usability whilst also protecting against the attacker model we just discussed
  443. Ge0rG SaltyBones: don't even get me started about the usability of GPG
  444. SaltyBones :D
  445. SamWhited "gpg probably has much better usability" is not something anyone has ever said with a straight face before :)
  446. SaltyBones only people who haven't tried ;D
  447. Ge0rG SaltyBones: so you haven't tried? Noted.
  448. Ge0rG "But I want OMEMO in the browser, and I want to access my archive!"
  449. SaltyBones No, GPG is death by key management...
  450. Ge0rG SaltyBones: OMEMO is also death by key management..
  451. Ge0rG or death by `adb backup`, which is even worse.
  452. SaltyBones Ge0rG, signal however, is not
  453. SaltyBones and actually omemo works okay
  454. SaltyBones you have to consider that even if you don't ever validate anything it still protects agains passive adversaries
  455. ralphm has joined
  456. vanitasvitae has joined
  457. Ge0rG SaltyBones: against passive adversaries who have admin access to your server and want to know more than just your metadata.
  458. Ge0rG and then it's just a command or two to add another key to your identity.
  459. uc has joined
  460. SaltyBones Yes, and a warning will pop-up that you can chose to not ignore and also they cannot read the history...
  461. Ge0rG My problem really is that with OMEMO, you have 3+x identities: your JID, your username, and a number of device keys.
  462. SaltyBones And that's total shit, I agree.
  463. Ge0rG My problem really is that with OMEMO, you have 3+x identities: your JID, your display name, and a number of device keys.
  464. Ge0rG and those aren't linked in any cryptographically significant way.
  465. SaltyBones Actually, I don't care much about JID and username...but there should only be one key
  466. SaltyBones Hm..what kind of linking are you thinking about?
  467. MattJ One key => key management becomes a real pain
  468. MattJ In the real world, people lose their phones
  469. Zash One key per what?
  470. Ge0rG MattJ: yeah, but what about key cross-signing. If I buy a new device before the previous one is broken, I sign my new key with the old one and my friends auto-trust it
  471. SaltyBones yeah, that
  472. MattJ if
  473. lumi has joined
  474. Ge0rG Is the JID encoded in the public key cert?
  475. Ge0rG or can I use the same OMEMO key on different JIDs?
  476. Zash What we need is more X.509!
  477. Ge0rG what's my identity? The JID or the pubkey?
  478. SaltyBones Zash, wait here I'll get my pitch fork.
  479. MattJ On the one hand you're talking about making XMPP easier to use. On the other hand you're talking about asking family members to perform key cross-signing
  480. Zash What is identity?
  481. MattJ Your identity is the JID, simple
  482. vanitasvitae has left
  483. vanitasvitae has left
  484. MattJ So just keep it that way
  485. SaltyBones gngngngn
  486. SaltyBones what
  487. SaltyBones stop
  488. SaltyBones the identity is the key!
  489. SaltyBones :)
  490. Ge0rG MattJ: "scan your old device with your new device to auto-configure your jabbers"
  491. MattJ Ge0rG, the old device is broken, stolen or lost
  492. Holger Ge0rG: I do WHAT?!
  493. Holger Ge0rG: Can't we just use WhatsApp please?! That just works!!!
  494. SaltyBones Yeah, or just get a pop-up: "You want to add a new device. Please confirm!" on the old phone
  495. Ge0rG SaltyBones: yeah
  496. MattJ 90% of the phone upgrades in my family have been in response to breakage, loss or theft - not planned upgrades
  497. jubalh has joined
  498. SaltyBones MattJ, that's fine then just let them also create a new key....
  499. Ge0rG MattJ: now we are back to the attacker model. Are we talking about trust-by-default in the general population or about secure messaging for dissidents?
  500. MattJ I'm talking about the general population
  501. vanitasvitae has joined
  502. Ge0rG "Where's my chat history???"
  503. MattJ Niche markets will help themselves, they always do
  504. Ge0rG E2EE just doesn't work for family chats.
  505. Zash Trust in the server, the server is good.
  506. suzyo has left
  507. Ge0rG that's the next thing. The server can completely strip out the OMEMO identification on your comms. What then?
  508. vanitasvitae has left
  509. vanitasvitae has left
  510. MattJ Use a different server and/or don't communicate
  511. MattJ This is not a novel problem
  512. MattJ Routers can (and in some cases do) drop TLS handshake packets
  513. Ge0rG Yes, but OMEMO isn't mandatory on XMPP :P
  514. jonasw Ge0rG, e2ee seems to work for whatsapp tohugh
  515. SaltyBones And signal
  516. SaltyBones and for my bloody family even omemo works ;)
  517. Holger Because no verification. And no PEP!
  518. SaltyBones of course I just tell them to shut up when they complain ;)
  519. vanitasvitae has joined
  520. Kev jonasw: "works" is relative, though.
  521. jonasw Kev, inhowfar?
  522. SaltyBones Holger, PEP?
  523. Kev In as much as the whatsapp multiaccount story is far worse than XMPP's, and I hate losing messages, and etc.
  524. Holger SaltyBones: Well OMEMO uses PEP for distribution of pubkeys, and that keeps falling apart.
  525. Ge0rG jonasw: https://www.reddit.com/r/whatsapp/comments/68sgmx/google_drive_backup_encrypted/
  526. Kev (Plus the recent vulnerabilities in it)
  527. lskdjf has left
  528. lskdjf has left
  529. lskdjf has joined
  530. jubalh has left
  531. uc has joined
  532. boothj5 has left
  533. Syndace has left
  534. Syndace has joined
  535. lskdjf has joined
  536. valo has left
  537. valo has joined
  538. jonasw whatsapp loses messages?
  539. jonasw that’s new to me
  540. lskdjf has joined
  541. Kev It does when you lose your phone.
  542. tux has joined
  543. SaltyBones hehehe
  544. daniel has joined
  545. xnyhps has left
  546. xnyhps has joined
  547. waqas has joined
  548. SaltyBones has left
  549. jjrh has left
  550. Steve Kille has left
  551. Steve Kille has left
  552. jjrh has left
  553. jubalh has joined
  554. la|r|ma has left
  555. jubalh has left
  556. Dave Cridland has left
  557. Martin has left
  558. ralphm has left
  559. Steve Kille has joined
  560. jjrh has left
  561. blabla has joined
  562. lskdjf has left
  563. lskdjf has left
  564. lskdjf has left
  565. lovetox has joined
  566. jjrh has left
  567. jjrh has left
  568. jjrh has left
  569. daniel has left
  570. suzyo has joined
  571. Steve Kille has left
  572. jjrh has left
  573. Dave Cridland has left
  574. ralphm has joined
  575. ralphm has left
  576. zinid has left
  577. SaltyBones has joined
  578. la|r|ma has left
  579. mimi89999 has left
  580. mimi89999 has left
  581. uc has left
  582. mimi89999 has joined
  583. uc has joined
  584. ralphm has joined
  585. suzyo has joined
  586. tux has joined
  587. Alex has left
  588. Tobias has joined
  589. waqas has left
  590. lskdjf has left
  591. remko has joined
  592. remko has left
  593. Alex has joined
  594. uc has joined
  595. lskdjf has joined
  596. nyco has left
  597. ralphm has joined
  598. lskdjf has left
  599. uc has joined
  600. ralphm has joined
  601. uc has left
  602. Alex has left
  603. uc has joined
  604. lskdjf has joined
  605. suzyo has joined
  606. pep. https://www.reddit.com/r/whatsapp/comments/68sgmx/google_drive_backup_encrypted/dh1w7j3/ "This is where you are wrong"
  607. ralphm has joined
  608. Zash -xkcd 538
  609. Guus has left
  610. pep. heh, I had never seen the alt comment
  611. Zash Bunneh: Meh
  612. Zash Where is your wrench now?
  613. lovetox has left
  614. Guus has left
  615. Alex has joined
  616. hannes has left
  617. hannes has joined
  618. leonardbadi has joined
  619. lskdjf has joined
  620. leonardbadi has left
  621. lskdjf has joined
  622. suzyo has left
  623. suzyo has joined
  624. mimi89999 has joined
  625. sezuan has joined
  626. ralphm has joined
  627. waqas has joined
  628. waqas has left
  629. sezuan has left
  630. sezuan has joined
  631. waqas has joined
  632. goffi has left
  633. suzyo has joined
  634. lskdjf has joined
  635. blabla has left
  636. Dave Cridland has left
  637. Dave Cridland has left
  638. jjrh has left
  639. ralphm has joined
  640. jjrh has left
  641. valo has left
  642. valo has joined
  643. ralphm has joined
  644. moparisthebest even in the case of trusted servers, I guess all servers are secure and all software well configured? that's not exactly the impression I get
  645. moparisthebest my xmpp server is in a closet in my house that I'm pretty confident is physically secure, and I like to consider myself competent enough security-wise that no one can hack in, but everyone makes mistakes, and no doubt some software has bugs
  646. moparisthebest e2e protects against that too
  647. moparisthebest even just the passive BTBV variants
  648. ralphm has joined
  649. Holger Eww all your stanzas pass through a closet?
  650. moparisthebest they do :)
  651. Holger Oh the dictionary says "closet" != "toilet".
  652. Holger Ah the dictionary says there's both meanings :-)
  653. Holger The German "Klosett" is always a toilet.
  654. moparisthebest hmm never heard of that meaning, language, fun stuff
  655. moparisthebest I mean where you'd normally hang clothes in a bedroom :)
  656. Holger That's ok then :-)
  657. jjrh has left
  658. moparisthebest though, an xmpp server inside a toilet would be EXTRA physically secure
  659. moparisthebest I mean, you can grab it, if you want to, be my guest
  660. zinid moparisthebest, secure enough if you have no friends
  661. jjrh has left
  662. jjrh has left
  663. lumi has left
  664. lumi has joined
  665. moparisthebest I just got around to reading your "Please Stop Writing Secure Message Tools" blog thing Ge0rG https://dymaxion.org/essays/pleasestop.html
  666. moparisthebest but it seems like, don't write them unless they check all these boxes
  667. moparisthebest and xmpp checks every single box
  668. moparisthebest except it could maybe deal with a little less metadata, but even then, it's scattered all over vs in one silo
  669. lovetox has joined
  670. ralphm has joined
  671. Zash something something threat model
  672. lskdjf has left
  673. moparisthebest that crap where if the NSA isn't after you you don't need encryption is just that, crap, everyone needs privacy
  674. lskdjf has left
  675. moparisthebest and if it's a little less user friendly than not encrypted, work on that, see letsencrypt for example
  676. zinid moparisthebest, do those people dumping their lives in instagram need privacy too?
  677. zinid privacy is a broad term
  678. moparisthebest sure, you choose what you want public or not
  679. lskdjf has left
  680. pep. zinid, maybe they live double lives, and one of them is protecting the other by sending crap on instagram!!
  681. zinid who knows
  682. Dave Cridland has left
  683. jubalh has joined
  684. Holger moparisthebest: If someone says he doesn't like Bananas that's crap, everyone does!
  685. jubalh has joined
  686. jubalh has joined
  687. Dave Cridland has left
  688. Dave Cridland has joined
  689. moparisthebest that would be a preference vs a statement of fact I guess
  690. Holger Sure sure.
  691. zinid "everyone needs privacy" sounds like a statement of fact ;)
  692. zinid the problem is in definition of privacy
  693. moparisthebest it's identical to the TLS vs plaintext debate honestly
  694. moparisthebest and that seems fairly settled nowadays that everything needs to be TLS doesn't it?
  695. Holger It's not identical in the case of TLS for c2s.
  696. moparisthebest a valid argument is/was that TLS is harder than plaintext, has useability problems etc etc
  697. Holger At least not when using PLAIN SASL.
  698. zinid moparisthebest, TLS is slow shit, I use plain http wherever possible
  699. moparisthebest haha but you are wrong
  700. moparisthebest TLS is faster in many cases nowadays
  701. Zash It's not "everyone needs privacy", it's > No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
  702. Zash It's a human right. Whatever the of privacy is.
  703. zinid moparisthebest, sure, you know better
  704. Zash It's a human right. Whatever the definition of privacy is.
  705. lskdjf has left
  706. moparisthebest zinid, don't take my word for it https://www.troyhunt.com/i-wanna-go-fast-https-massive-speed-advantage/ https://istlsfastyet.com/
  707. moparisthebest plain http today is slower than https, there is no debate about it
  708. zinid that's why I use http on some sites, I'm just blind and cannot see how https is much faster
  709. ralphm has joined
  710. Zash but is it fast enough to counteract the ever increasing bloat?
  711. lskdjf has left
  712. Zash ... no, it just encourages more bloat
  713. blabla has left
  714. Zash can't have fast things
  715. moparisthebest says a guy who enjoys shuffling XML streams around... :)
  716. Zash pretty sure my messages aren't in the order of megabytes
  717. Guus has left
  718. SamWhited neither are my webpages; they're still ~20% faster if I'm using TLS.
  719. waqas I've been browsing with JS disabled, or selectively first-party-only enabled, and it has been a pretty great experience.
  720. zinid my 1-hour poezio's XML log is 300kb, horrible bloat
  721. SamWhited Oh, TLS won't speed anything up on XMPP, but it's not slow either. Basicaly negligable.
  722. zinid and here come servers where you need twice RAM to support TLS connections
  723. SamWhited You really don't
  724. SamWhited Machines are optimized for it these days; TLS's extra resource use is basically negligable unless you have a much bigger server than I think you do.
  725. moparisthebest even google, which has servers way bigger than any xmpp deployment, says it's essentially no overhead
  726. zinid ever tried to connect 1M of XMPP sessions?
  727. moparisthebest and that was years ago
  728. zinid with TLS or without
  729. moparisthebest TLS
  730. Zash You are both wrong. More than negligable, but not double memory consumption.
  731. Zash TLS handshakes are quite the CPU hog too.
  732. zinid moparisthebest, because HTTP doesn't have long-lived connections
  733. moparisthebest the long lived part really is 0 overhead
  734. zinid yeah, sure ;)
  735. moparisthebest any overhead is just on setup, so from that perspective, http over TLS is more overhead than xmpp over TLS
  736. moparisthebest and since https isn't a problem, xmpps certainly isn't
  737. zinid even nginx author says it's about 50k-100k overhead per connection
  738. moparisthebest zinid, I mean you were right in 2005 for sure, maybe even 2008 or whatever, whenever aes-ni became a thing
  739. ralphm has joined
  740. zinid there is a recent issue in our bugtracker where a guy complaining about huge memory consumption when TLS is enabled
  741. zinid 30Gb overhead
  742. zinid on 1M connections
  743. zinid but, possible, 30Gb is nothing for google
  744. moparisthebest is that a public bugtracker? sounds interesting
  745. zinid sure
  746. zinid it's on github issues, but I'm too lazy to find it, anyway, Holger will not let me lie, he laughed at the issue too ;)
  747. Guus has left
  748. SamWhited What's the total memory usage?
  749. moparisthebest iirc when google forced https for gmail the usage increase was like 1.2% and that was pre-http2
  750. moparisthebest can't actually find that right now...
  751. zinid SamWhited, 70Gb or so, I don't remember actually
  752. jubalh has left
  753. moparisthebest https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2062
  754. moparisthebest is that it?
  755. zinid yes
  756. moparisthebest impressive
  757. moparisthebest how much memory does the rest of a connection take?
  758. moparisthebest what % is 50kb
  759. zinid it's highly depends on usage, roster size and so on
  760. zinid *it
  761. SamWhited That does seem high; 50k of overhead per connection is much more than I've ever seen; not sure what that could be.
  762. moparisthebest if a non-tls session takes 1mb of ram and tls adds 50kb, that's 0.09% increase?
  763. zinid I think he counted wrong, I'm trying to calculate now and I get numbers far above 90Gb if I do 2Mx50kb
  764. moparisthebest yea that's true
  765. zinid anyway, 50-100kb is a typical overhead I see in stress tests, so...
  766. Zash https://www.zash.se/prosody-graphs.html .... is that like 15kb/conn for tls? I might have forgotten how to read those graphs
  767. Zash Dat CPU usage tho
  768. moparisthebest but really the % matters, if that's only a 0.09% increase well...
  769. zinid moparisthebest, that's not 0.09% increase, in production we offload TLS because huge RAM machines are expensive, so we split the RAM between the machines
  770. Holger First random Google hit: > OpenSSL tends to allocate about 50KB of mem­ory for each connection. https://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html
  771. zinid why would we do this crazy shit if there was negligible overhead?
  772. Zash Something something release buffers?
  773. moparisthebest how much do you allocate for a regular XMPP connection though is what I'm wondering
  774. zinid Zash, the option is set
  775. moparisthebest my hunch is it's so much more than 50kb that 50kb is negligble
  776. Holger Isn't that option for freeing memory on *idle* connections?
  777. jubalh has joined
  778. jubalh has joined
  779. jubalh has joined
  780. zinid moparisthebest, for empty roster c2s it's no more than 50kb in fact
  781. Holger moparisthebest: On the two servers I'm involved with it's about 300k, but those are with all bells and whistles enabled (MAM and whatnot), so it's probably less elsewhere.
  782. zinid It's really hard to say, because there is a crazy garbage collector in Erlang doing some weird shit
  783. lskdjf has left
  784. zinid not to mention how great openssl is when you try to connect 2M :)
  785. zinid you need to patch it, or else it will spend most of the time in locks on a machine with a lot of CPUs
  786. lskdjf has left
  787. tux has left
  788. ralphm has joined
  789. Dave Cridland has left
  790. Dave Cridland has joined
  791. lskdjf has left
  792. Zash has left
  793. SaltyBones has left
  794. SaltyBones has joined
  795. lskdjf has left
  796. zinid has left
  797. moparisthebest has joined
  798. SamWhited has left
  799. lskdjf has joined
  800. Syndace has left
  801. Alex has left
  802. Ge0rG has left
  803. lskdjf has left
  804. Alex has joined
  805. Zash has left
  806. lskdjf has joined
  807. waqas has left
  808. lskdjf has joined
  809. lskdjf has left
  810. jubalh has left
  811. lskdjf has joined
  812. lskdjf has joined
  813. sezuan has left
  814. lskdjf has left
  815. lskdjf has left
  816. SaltyBones has left
  817. SamWhited has left
  818. jere has left
  819. jere has joined
  820. mimi89999 has joined
  821. waqas has joined
  822. waqas has left
  823. lskdjf has left
  824. lskdjf has left
  825. lskdjf has joined
  826. Holger has joined
  827. lskdjf has joined
  828. lskdjf has left
  829. daniel has joined
  830. lskdjf has left
  831. lskdjf has left
  832. lskdjf has left
  833. Holger has joined
  834. lskdjf has joined
  835. lskdjf has left
  836. lskdjf has left