XSF Discussion - 2018-01-29

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  180. Guus For those that want to attend the Summit, and have not yet send me their email address: _please do so now_. It's needed to generate a wifi code, as well as building access.
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  185. Ge0rG https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16257073 - zero xmpp.
  186. mathieui Ge0rG, first post is pidgin/adium + OTR, which includes xmpp
  187. Ge0rG Right, which is a set of broken and outdated things.
  188. SouL Ge0rG, you can reply recommending XMPP then :D
  189. Ge0rG SouL: oh, yes. Which one of the horrible desktop clients shall I recommend?
  190. jonasw Ge0rG, tell them that e2e is useless anyways
  191. jonasw I thought that’s your speciality? :)
  192. Zash Doesn't any mention of XMPP just attract hordes of pro-Matrix trolls?
  193. mathieui that it does
  194. Ge0rG jonasw: I only hate E2EE over XMPP, because it doesn't match the comms model of XMPP in any reasonable way
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  196. SaltyBones Ge0rG, why not? Because it is not multi-device?
  197. Ge0rG SaltyBones: because it's absolutely decoupled from the XMPP identity model.
  198. SaltyBones Ge0rG, but that is rather common isn't it?
  199. SaltyBones Or do you mean something like in GPG where a key specifies the e-mail address it is for?
  200. Ge0rG SaltyBones: not in protocols where e2ee is a first class citizen
  201. Ge0rG SaltyBones: no, I mean things like tox where your public key is your ID
  202. SamWhited I haven't used Tox, but that sounds like GPG levels of unusability…
  203. Ge0rG SamWhited: take Briar, then.
  204. jonasw invokes Zookos Triangle
  205. SamWhited As long as I don't have to remember a key then I'll take just about anything
  206. Zash All hail the great Zooko
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  210. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks very much. XMPP is the crypto protocol that only checks off one of the three points.
  211. moparisthebest Ge0rG, a key being inseperable from an identity isn't great either, I lose my phone, and suddenly have to let all contacts know? ew
  212. Ge0rG moparisthebest: only if you define key as being the same as phone.
  213. moparisthebest how else could you define it
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  215. Zash Run your own CA
  216. Ge0rG moparisthebest: in a dozen of other ways :P
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  218. moparisthebest how about you have a well defined account name, maybe in the format of local@domain, and then verify keys out of band? :D
  219. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that's great, except it doesn't give any strong binding between your identity and your keys.
  220. moparisthebest it does if you verify it out of band
  221. Ge0rG moparisthebest: in which case you can as well have cryptographic identities
  222. Zash Who verifies it?
  223. moparisthebest user, if they want
  224. moparisthebest my only point is both have upsides and downsides, the upside of xmpp being everything else just works and you don't have to reinvent the wheel
  225. Ge0rG except that not everything works in XMPP
  226. moparisthebest better than reinventing the wheel
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  229. Zash And E2EE is actively making things worse for me now. Messages only showing up on my phone :(
  230. Ge0rG Zash: what? If only somebody could have warned you!
  231. moparisthebest another reason identity-tied-to-key is worse, now you lose multi device support
  232. MattJ +1
  233. moparisthebest that's just something that can be approved, rather than each user manually trusting all device keys of a contact, once they trust one, they could trust all others based on a signature from the one they trusted
  234. moparisthebest s/approved/improved/
  235. Ge0rG moparisthebest: exactly my point
  236. moparisthebest what is
  237. Ge0rG strapping a per-device crypto identity on top of a federated per-account identity is just not going to work. full stop.
  238. moparisthebest no, it'll work just fine
  239. moparisthebest sure it's not ideal today, but all the building blocks are there to make it ideal
  240. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the building blocks are there to make it barely usable.
  241. moparisthebest my point is strapping per-device crypto identity mixed with identity-per-contact is unusable with multi device
  242. Ge0rG Yes.
  243. moparisthebest so the xmpp approach is clearly better
  244. Ge0rG looks like we are saying the same.
  245. Ge0rG Wait.
  246. Zash Ge0rG: It might work but it'll be a hack.
  247. Ge0rG moparisthebest: what you just described as unusable _is_ the XMPP approach.
  248. Zash Model conflicts all over
  249. moparisthebest no
  250. moparisthebest what you said is ideal, the key *is* your identity
  251. moparisthebest is not compatible with multiple devices
  252. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you can export the key.
  253. moparisthebest do any current systems work that way?
  254. Ge0rG I surely hope so.
  255. moparisthebest I seriously doubt it, if you are routing based on key not quite sure how you route to 2 different places
  256. moparisthebest sounds hard
  257. Ge0rG moparisthebest: either all of your devices use the same identity key, or you have device keys that are all maintained under your identity key.
  258. moparisthebest by the way, it doesn't actually solve any problem, before you had a *name* and have to out-of-band ensure it matches a *key*
  259. moparisthebest and now you have a *key* and can't match it to a *name*
  260. moparisthebest how is it different?
  261. Zash The direction of authority in XMPP is from DNS to servers to accounts to clients. E2E wants it in the other direction, sorta
  262. moparisthebest it's not that straightforward anymore when you add DNSSEC and CAs either
  263. moparisthebest the root problem is how do you match a key to a person
  264. moparisthebest and, iirc, that's not solved in any system
  265. Zash That's a hard problem
  266. MattJ It's just impractical to solve in the real world
  267. MattJ It's a nice technical challenge for ideological geeks
  268. Zash When everyone learns to do cryptographic signature algorithms in their heads then maybe
  269. MattJ and then SHA256 gets broken
  270. moparisthebest the best we can do is 'good enough' for most people and 'rock solid' for the people who really care, which I think is basically what we have
  271. Zash Then having users as the root of trust might work
  272. SaltyBones I like ideas like certificate transparency and CONIKS
  273. SaltyBones combining that with some good old WoT and a nice scan-barcode-to-verify should actually be pretty good
  274. moparisthebest today you can meet people in person, or call them, or whatever, and verify identity, that's the rock solid for people who care
  275. moparisthebest on the 'good enough' front, if bob from the xsf messages me, whatever, talking with him for a bit is 'good enough'
  276. moparisthebest I mean here I am talking with Ge0rG in an anonymous muc, he might not even be the same Ge0rG from yesterday, clearly we couldn't care less about identities in XMPP :P
  277. Zash People can grasp hierarchical systems, we have them everywhere, in companies and organizations. P2P and WoT is like anarchy :)
  278. SaltyBones Zash, actually I think WoT is very natural for people but the WoT for e-mail is not explicit enough for people to get it and it is too complicated to maintain it
  279. SaltyBones The bigger issue is that WoT has huge privacy issues
  280. Ge0rG > the root problem is how do you match a key to a person http://web.archive.org/web/20110501005631/http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org/
  281. SaltyBones I think a combination of a public ledger for assigning jid<->key combined with automatic WoT verification with known users would be cool
  282. SaltyBones Ge0rG, indeed but if you meet the person that is rather easy to do
  283. SaltyBones the question is how do you distribute that information so that it is readily accessible
  284. Ge0rG SaltyBones: the WoT for mail is absolutely broken.
  285. moparisthebest the people on my contact list fall into 2 categories, 1. People I know in-person and have verified keys in-person 2. People I don't know in person so who cares
  286. Zash Did you just suggest a blockchain?
  287. Ge0rG SaltyBones: just one keyword as explanation: transitive trust.
  288. SaltyBones Zash, I almost certainly did not, sir!
  289. moparisthebest you said public ledger
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  291. SaltyBones But yeah, the implication is there, but something like certificate transparency does would work as well
  292. moparisthebest if you trust the certificate transparency servers I guess
  293. SaltyBones you guess correctly
  294. Ge0rG the blockchain is a complex solution to a single problem of a distributed currency: double-spending.
  295. Ge0rG I wonder how double-spending is a problem with public identities.
  296. moparisthebest easy, because key X signs a message saying they own me@mydomain.com
  297. moparisthebest now if key Y comes along and signs they own me@mydomain.com you know it's not valid
  298. Ge0rG moparisthebest: how do you know that key X is legitimate?
  299. moparisthebest they signed it first!
  300. Ge0rG moparisthebest: okay, so if we have a public ledger, the first to sign a JID wins.
  301. moparisthebest yep
  302. moparisthebest first come first served
  303. Ge0rG how does that prevent me from signing *@xmpp.org
  304. moparisthebest it doesn't
  305. moparisthebest well * isn't valid so you'd have to sign a lot
  306. moparisthebest but yea
  307. Ge0rG So it's worthless as an identity tracking device. Good.
  308. moparisthebest no it'd track identity perfectly
  309. Ge0rG Claimed identity.
  310. jonasw I’d argue that you shouldn’t be able to claim something@domain, but only domain
  311. moparisthebest I just said earlier I think no one has solved this and it's basically impossible to solve :P
  312. jonasw (and then delegate claims for something@domain)
  313. Zash But xmpp.org is the authority over *@xmpo.org
  314. Ge0rG moparisthebest: so you are trying to solve a problem you think is impossible to solve?
  315. moparisthebest and PIR is the authority over .org and ICANN over that and US govt over that Zash , what's your point
  316. moparisthebest Ge0rG, nope it's solved good enough
  317. Ge0rG Except it's not.
  318. Zash moparisthebest: adding another name authority will create a mess
  319. Ge0rG jonasw: what you describe is the trust model of XMPP, without any need for E2EE
  320. jonasw Ge0rG, I admit I didn’t take a close look :)
  321. Ge0rG jonasw: servers are responsible for user identities on their service. XMPP.
  322. Ge0rG Now one _could_ add OMEMO keys in PEP on individual JIDs and encrypt-by-default, and have E2EE with server-trusted manually-verifiable identity.
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  324. moparisthebest isn't that exactly how it works?
  325. SaltyBones I think he is missing the server-trusted...?
  326. moparisthebest I'm not really sure what that means then, the server doesn't need to trust anything
  327. SaltyBones I read it as "the server should provide trust in the identities it provides"
  328. SaltyBones Like signing the users keys or similar
  329. Zash Having the server sign user identities somehow ?
  330. SaltyBones Well, you could also use IBE if you want to go really crazy. :)
  331. moparisthebest the server does basically
  332. moparisthebest I mean the server should only allow those to be set from the account setting them
  333. moparisthebest alice@server can't set bob@server's pep nodes can she?
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  336. Ge0rG I meant that the server is trusted by default
  337. moparisthebest Ge0rG, uh again that's how it works now
  338. Ge0rG moparisthebest: in the single-device case.
  339. SaltyBones I don't see what this has to do with e2e
  340. moparisthebest Ge0rG, https://gultsch.de/trust.html
  341. SaltyBones If you combine that with a CONIKS like transparency approach it is actually very good.
  342. Ge0rG coinks sounds like a pig.
  343. SaltyBones if you spell it like that it sounds like COIN-X another cryptocurrency
  344. Ge0rG or that.
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  348. jonasw moparisthebest, didn’t you set up some ALPN test host?
  349. jonasw or domain?
  350. moparisthebest haven't set up the tests yet no, but mine requires alpn on the first record over ipv4
  351. jonasw I’d need something which always requires ALPN for the tests to be useful
  352. jonasw (I want to add that to the aioxmpp test suite)
  353. moparisthebest no don't have that yet sorry
  354. jonasw ah, pity
  355. moparisthebest you could use firewall rules to fake it, but then tests might only pass/fail on your machine
  356. jonasw yeah, I want to run that in travis CI
  357. moparisthebest probably easier to set up a test host yourself honestly :P
  358. Zash Can openssl s_server?
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  379. edhelas https://blog.status.im/status-invests-5m-in-riot-im-4e3026a8bd50
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  381. Ge0rG > Status - A Mobile OS, Built for Ethereum. No further questions. I rest my case.
  382. Zash Objection, relevance?
  383. Ge0rG Bullshit Bingo Strike.
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  388. moparisthebest that's really all XSF is missing
  389. moparisthebest a marketing team full of master bullshitters
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  394. vanitasvitae I read the URL like "status invests 5 minutes in riot im" :D
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  396. moparisthebest hey, that's the same amount I invested in riot im
  397. SaltyBones pfff
  398. SaltyBones Furthermore, the collaboration between Status and Matrix is expected to: Utilize the Status Network token within Riot.im by enabling crypto assets
  399. SaltyBones they are bying influence and users
  400. vanitasvitae I actually tested it for a few weeks. The thing that dragged me back to xmpp/conversations was that the app could not receive messages when closed.
  401. vanitasvitae SaltyBones, sounds a little bit like the Telegram blockchain thingy
  402. SaltyBones vanitasvitae, did you test riot/matrix or whisper?
  403. moparisthebest I found it more confusing than any other IM app I've ever used
  404. moparisthebest and then I tried installing it on my wife's phone and messaging my username
  405. vanitasvitae SaltyBones, I tested the app from fdroid
  406. moparisthebest but then my IRC account on freenode got the message instead
  407. SaltyBones I mean, the fact that the app cannot receive messages while closed it unlikely to be a protocol restriction
  408. moparisthebest wtf
  409. SaltyBones I mean, the fact that the app cannot receive messages while closed is unlikely to be a protocol restriction
  410. vanitasvitae yeah, my phone doesnt have gcm
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  412. vanitasvitae but I gave it the same permissions I also gave conversations
  413. jonasw moparisthebest, wtf
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  415. moparisthebest jonasw, well turns out they have an always on freenode gateway, so if you search 'moparisthebest' in riot.im that came up before my new username :P
  416. moparisthebest still was confusing before I figured it out
  417. moparisthebest basically would not mark it 'easy to use'
  418. jonasw so you can search arbitrary users on freenode in riot.im?
  419. moparisthebest I've never accidentally messaged someone on freenode from conversations
  420. moparisthebest yep
  421. jonasw aha.
  422. moparisthebest but nothing clearly said 'this is an IRC user on freenode'
  423. edhelas who want to write some BS articles on the XMPP blog ? then we can get some funding to buy pizzas and stickers for the next Summit ?
  424. moparisthebest that's the problem, we need a master BS artist, and we are (all?) programmers
  425. edhelas like "5 steps to transfer your BTC with XMPP", "VR over XMPP, we tested it and it's trully amazing", "You'll never guess what they've done with XMPP"
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  427. edhelas (for the last one just write how you can change the lights colors by sending <messages> :D)
  428. jonasw or maybe my actual thing which transports sensor data over XMPP
  429. jonasw and public transport departure times
  430. jonasw and shows it on an LCD
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  434. Dave Cridland 5 facts about XMPP: You'll never believe number four!
  435. moparisthebest is it that it uses XML
  436. Dave Cridland XMPP uses XML and people just can't handle it!
  437. jonasw There is a binary serialization of XML which is very compact!
  438. moparisthebest so compact that no one even uses it!
  439. Guus Dave, if you keep this up, I'm taking away your Facebook access again.
  440. moparisthebest so there are some interesting articles about XMPP and such, it just doesn't always call-out THIS IS XMPP https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/595zg5/sopranica-jmp-wom-cell-network-diy-anonymous
  441. moparisthebest it might be neat to have an xmpp dedicated blog to talk about cool stuff being done with xmpp today, but I couldn't write articles, I'm bad with words :)
  442. moparisthebest here's another one https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xm5v3/this-software-developer-is-making-a-surveillance-free-cell-phone-network (same topic)
  443. jonasw do we have a planet XMPP?
  444. jonasw like planet python
  445. moparisthebest maybe the xsf should just hire ossguy / Denver Gingerich to do it's marketing :)
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  448. SamWhited We do have a planet XMPP… but I don't think anyone has used planets in years, so I'm not sure how much good it does. I don't even remember where it lives
  449. SamWhited jonasw: https://planet.jabber.org/
  450. SamWhited ossguys marketing works because he's marketing a service; the XSF doesn't have a service to market.
  451. moparisthebest that's basically half the problem, some of us want to market cisco's trademarked term, others don't :P
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  455. SamWhited I don't think that's a problem or matters at all; the problem is that we want to market an abstract network and ecosystem of different products. Regardless of what we call it, people aren't going to be able to grasp that and it's just going to sound too confusing.
  456. moparisthebest that makes sense, what about just marketing FOSS stuff that uses XMPP though
  457. moparisthebest jmp.chat being one example of many
  458. SamWhited Yah, that seems good to me. People can grasp what jmp.chat or Conversations.im is; they don't need to know the protocol, just that there's a cool new chat service
  459. SamWhited And maybe somewhere it has an "XMPP Certified" or "Jabber Compatible" badge or something along those lines; most people won't care, those that do can find it.
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  474. SamWhited Guus, Kev: I just noticed some XEPs that shouldn't be in the list and the website build appears to have failed 4 days ago and not run since then, FYI
  475. Kev Ta. something for after the summit, I think.
  476. Ge0rG SamWhited: "Jabber Compatible" is what we need a new Jabber Software Alliance for!
  477. Zash No, first we need a funny backronym and a shiny website and a billion dolares in marketing budget
  478. Guus Sam, I'm not understanding the details of what you're writing. I'm missing a comma, somewhere, I thnk :)
  479. Ge0rG Zash: we are full of "funny" backronyms, like SCAM. And nobody is going to give us billions, nor even millions of dollars.
  480. Ge0rG Maybe we can make a JabberCoin ICO.
  481. SamWhited Guus: sorry, that was confusing. The website hasn't been rebuilt for 4 days so the /extensions list is not up to date.
  482. SamWhited Guus: https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/ba3edxw2vyssrdcnovd6gps/
  483. Guus that's light on details :/
  484. Guus I can try to kick it off again?
  485. SamWhited sounds good, thanks
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  487. Guus SamWhited: it's building now. For future reference: it should pick up any change in github (so you can trigger it by committing something). It should also be triggered by a successful build of the XEPs repo.
  488. SamWhited oh, I should have thought of that, thanks
  489. Guus (or rather, github pushes to XEPs will cause the XEPs dockerhub to kick off, which in turn will kick off the website one)
  490. SamWhited I just made a change, so I guess that would have rebuilt it soon anyways
  491. Guus ah, probably. I've now only delayed your change by triggering a manual build.
  492. jjrh A weekly "whats going on in XMPP" would be cool sorta like http://sachachua.com/blog/2018/01/2018-01-23-emacs-news/
  493. jjrh But I feel like that would have already happened if someone had the time.
  494. jjrh I have planet jabber in my rss reader though and it picks up a lot of stuff. It misses is what's happening in XSF-Standards that I gotta actually read my email ;)
  495. ralphm has joined
  496. edhelas jjrh you should have Planet Jabber in your Pubsub feed reader :p
  497. edhelas you know "eat your own food" :p
  498. jjrh edhelas, any client recommendations?
  499. edhelas Movim :)
  500. jjrh I'll have to try it out.
  501. edhelas just wait ~10min, i've added the feed, it will appears soon
  502. edhelas but there's already a bunch of them :
  503. edhelas https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/ArsTechnica for example
  504. jjrh so they are called 'communities' ?
  505. edhelas yup :)
  506. edhelas because "Pubsub Node" is too mainstream
  507. jjrh Gajim apparently has pubsub support but I never really figured out how to make it work.
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  509. jjrh Thought it would be good for stuff like notifications/alerts and the like for the office. Better than spamming the group chat with a bot :P Folks can easily opt in or out
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  511. jjrh https://de.movim.eu/?community/news.movim.eu/PlanetJabber there it is :D
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  515. edhelas :)
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  533. Neustradamus Any news about clients and servers removed on XMPP.org lists?
  534. Neustradamus "After a verification on xmpp.org, I found that the list has been changed, in the past when I managed the list, it will be more important. Psi and Psi+ have not in list, why? https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html http://psi-im.org/ + http://psi-plus.com/ Really strange for historical XMPP clients Metronome is not listed too on https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html https://metronome.im/ It was before ;)"
  535. moparisthebest Neustradamus: they need renewed annually or get removed automatically
  536. Neustradamus moparisthebest thanks for your reply! it is strange
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