XSF Discussion - 2018-01-29

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  180. Guus

    For those that want to attend the Summit, and have not yet send me their email address: _please do so now_. It's needed to generate a wifi code, as well as building access.

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  185. Ge0rG

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16257073 - zero xmpp.

  186. mathieui

    Ge0rG, first post is pidgin/adium + OTR, which includes xmpp

  187. Ge0rG

    Right, which is a set of broken and outdated things.

  188. SouL

    Ge0rG, you can reply recommending XMPP then :D

  189. Ge0rG

    SouL: oh, yes. Which one of the horrible desktop clients shall I recommend?

  190. jonasw

    Ge0rG, tell them that e2e is useless anyways

  191. jonasw

    I thought that’s your speciality? :)

  192. Zash

    Doesn't any mention of XMPP just attract hordes of pro-Matrix trolls?

  193. mathieui

    that it does

  194. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I only hate E2EE over XMPP, because it doesn't match the comms model of XMPP in any reasonable way

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  196. SaltyBones

    Ge0rG, why not? Because it is not multi-device?

  197. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: because it's absolutely decoupled from the XMPP identity model.

  198. SaltyBones

    Ge0rG, but that is rather common isn't it?

  199. SaltyBones

    Or do you mean something like in GPG where a key specifies the e-mail address it is for?

  200. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: not in protocols where e2ee is a first class citizen

  201. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: no, I mean things like tox where your public key is your ID

  202. SamWhited

    I haven't used Tox, but that sounds like GPG levels of unusability…

  203. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: take Briar, then.

  204. jonasw invokes Zookos Triangle

  205. SamWhited

    As long as I don't have to remember a key then I'll take just about anything

  206. Zash

    All hail the great Zooko

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  210. Ge0rG

    jonasw: thanks very much. XMPP is the crypto protocol that only checks off one of the three points.

  211. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, a key being inseperable from an identity isn't great either, I lose my phone, and suddenly have to let all contacts know? ew

  212. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: only if you define key as being the same as phone.

  213. moparisthebest

    how else could you define it

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  215. Zash

    Run your own CA

  216. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: in a dozen of other ways :P

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  218. moparisthebest

    how about you have a well defined account name, maybe in the format of local@domain, and then verify keys out of band? :D

  219. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: that's great, except it doesn't give any strong binding between your identity and your keys.

  220. moparisthebest

    it does if you verify it out of band

  221. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: in which case you can as well have cryptographic identities

  222. Zash

    Who verifies it?

  223. moparisthebest

    user, if they want

  224. moparisthebest

    my only point is both have upsides and downsides, the upside of xmpp being everything else just works and you don't have to reinvent the wheel

  225. Ge0rG

    except that not everything works in XMPP

  226. moparisthebest

    better than reinventing the wheel

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  229. Zash

    And E2EE is actively making things worse for me now. Messages only showing up on my phone :(

  230. Ge0rG

    Zash: what? If only somebody could have warned you!

  231. moparisthebest

    another reason identity-tied-to-key is worse, now you lose multi device support

  232. MattJ


  233. moparisthebest

    that's just something that can be approved, rather than each user manually trusting all device keys of a contact, once they trust one, they could trust all others based on a signature from the one they trusted

  234. moparisthebest


  235. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: exactly my point

  236. moparisthebest

    what is

  237. Ge0rG

    strapping a per-device crypto identity on top of a federated per-account identity is just not going to work. full stop.

  238. moparisthebest

    no, it'll work just fine

  239. moparisthebest

    sure it's not ideal today, but all the building blocks are there to make it ideal

  240. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: the building blocks are there to make it barely usable.

  241. moparisthebest

    my point is strapping per-device crypto identity mixed with identity-per-contact is unusable with multi device

  242. Ge0rG


  243. moparisthebest

    so the xmpp approach is clearly better

  244. Ge0rG

    looks like we are saying the same.

  245. Ge0rG


  246. Zash

    Ge0rG: It might work but it'll be a hack.

  247. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: what you just described as unusable _is_ the XMPP approach.

  248. Zash

    Model conflicts all over

  249. moparisthebest


  250. moparisthebest

    what you said is ideal, the key *is* your identity

  251. moparisthebest

    is not compatible with multiple devices

  252. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: you can export the key.

  253. moparisthebest

    do any current systems work that way?

  254. Ge0rG

    I surely hope so.

  255. moparisthebest

    I seriously doubt it, if you are routing based on key not quite sure how you route to 2 different places

  256. moparisthebest

    sounds hard

  257. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: either all of your devices use the same identity key, or you have device keys that are all maintained under your identity key.

  258. moparisthebest

    by the way, it doesn't actually solve any problem, before you had a *name* and have to out-of-band ensure it matches a *key*

  259. moparisthebest

    and now you have a *key* and can't match it to a *name*

  260. moparisthebest

    how is it different?

  261. Zash

    The direction of authority in XMPP is from DNS to servers to accounts to clients. E2E wants it in the other direction, sorta

  262. moparisthebest

    it's not that straightforward anymore when you add DNSSEC and CAs either

  263. moparisthebest

    the root problem is how do you match a key to a person

  264. moparisthebest

    and, iirc, that's not solved in any system

  265. Zash

    That's a hard problem

  266. MattJ

    It's just impractical to solve in the real world

  267. MattJ

    It's a nice technical challenge for ideological geeks

  268. Zash

    When everyone learns to do cryptographic signature algorithms in their heads then maybe

  269. MattJ

    and then SHA256 gets broken

  270. moparisthebest

    the best we can do is 'good enough' for most people and 'rock solid' for the people who really care, which I think is basically what we have

  271. Zash

    Then having users as the root of trust might work

  272. SaltyBones

    I like ideas like certificate transparency and CONIKS

  273. SaltyBones

    combining that with some good old WoT and a nice scan-barcode-to-verify should actually be pretty good

  274. moparisthebest

    today you can meet people in person, or call them, or whatever, and verify identity, that's the rock solid for people who care

  275. moparisthebest

    on the 'good enough' front, if bob from the xsf messages me, whatever, talking with him for a bit is 'good enough'

  276. moparisthebest

    I mean here I am talking with Ge0rG in an anonymous muc, he might not even be the same Ge0rG from yesterday, clearly we couldn't care less about identities in XMPP :P

  277. Zash

    People can grasp hierarchical systems, we have them everywhere, in companies and organizations. P2P and WoT is like anarchy :)

  278. SaltyBones

    Zash, actually I think WoT is very natural for people but the WoT for e-mail is not explicit enough for people to get it and it is too complicated to maintain it

  279. SaltyBones

    The bigger issue is that WoT has huge privacy issues

  280. Ge0rG

    > the root problem is how do you match a key to a person http://web.archive.org/web/20110501005631/http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org/

  281. SaltyBones

    I think a combination of a public ledger for assigning jid<->key combined with automatic WoT verification with known users would be cool

  282. SaltyBones

    Ge0rG, indeed but if you meet the person that is rather easy to do

  283. SaltyBones

    the question is how do you distribute that information so that it is readily accessible

  284. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: the WoT for mail is absolutely broken.

  285. moparisthebest

    the people on my contact list fall into 2 categories, 1. People I know in-person and have verified keys in-person 2. People I don't know in person so who cares

  286. Zash

    Did you just suggest a blockchain?

  287. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: just one keyword as explanation: transitive trust.

  288. SaltyBones

    Zash, I almost certainly did not, sir!

  289. moparisthebest

    you said public ledger

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  291. SaltyBones

    But yeah, the implication is there, but something like certificate transparency does would work as well

  292. moparisthebest

    if you trust the certificate transparency servers I guess

  293. SaltyBones

    you guess correctly

  294. Ge0rG

    the blockchain is a complex solution to a single problem of a distributed currency: double-spending.

  295. Ge0rG

    I wonder how double-spending is a problem with public identities.

  296. moparisthebest

    easy, because key X signs a message saying they own me@mydomain.com

  297. moparisthebest

    now if key Y comes along and signs they own me@mydomain.com you know it's not valid

  298. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: how do you know that key X is legitimate?

  299. moparisthebest

    they signed it first!

  300. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: okay, so if we have a public ledger, the first to sign a JID wins.

  301. moparisthebest


  302. moparisthebest

    first come first served

  303. Ge0rG

    how does that prevent me from signing *@xmpp.org

  304. moparisthebest

    it doesn't

  305. moparisthebest

    well * isn't valid so you'd have to sign a lot

  306. moparisthebest

    but yea

  307. Ge0rG

    So it's worthless as an identity tracking device. Good.

  308. moparisthebest

    no it'd track identity perfectly

  309. Ge0rG

    Claimed identity.

  310. jonasw

    I’d argue that you shouldn’t be able to claim something@domain, but only domain

  311. moparisthebest

    I just said earlier I think no one has solved this and it's basically impossible to solve :P

  312. jonasw

    (and then delegate claims for something@domain)

  313. Zash

    But xmpp.org is the authority over *@xmpo.org

  314. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: so you are trying to solve a problem you think is impossible to solve?

  315. moparisthebest

    and PIR is the authority over .org and ICANN over that and US govt over that Zash , what's your point

  316. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, nope it's solved good enough

  317. Ge0rG

    Except it's not.

  318. Zash

    moparisthebest: adding another name authority will create a mess

  319. Ge0rG

    jonasw: what you describe is the trust model of XMPP, without any need for E2EE

  320. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I admit I didn’t take a close look :)

  321. Ge0rG

    jonasw: servers are responsible for user identities on their service. XMPP.

  322. Ge0rG

    Now one _could_ add OMEMO keys in PEP on individual JIDs and encrypt-by-default, and have E2EE with server-trusted manually-verifiable identity.

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  324. moparisthebest

    isn't that exactly how it works?

  325. SaltyBones

    I think he is missing the server-trusted...?

  326. moparisthebest

    I'm not really sure what that means then, the server doesn't need to trust anything

  327. SaltyBones

    I read it as "the server should provide trust in the identities it provides"

  328. SaltyBones

    Like signing the users keys or similar

  329. Zash

    Having the server sign user identities somehow ?

  330. SaltyBones

    Well, you could also use IBE if you want to go really crazy. :)

  331. moparisthebest

    the server does basically

  332. moparisthebest

    I mean the server should only allow those to be set from the account setting them

  333. moparisthebest

    alice@server can't set bob@server's pep nodes can she?

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  336. Ge0rG

    I meant that the server is trusted by default

  337. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, uh again that's how it works now

  338. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: in the single-device case.

  339. SaltyBones

    I don't see what this has to do with e2e

  340. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, https://gultsch.de/trust.html

  341. SaltyBones

    If you combine that with a CONIKS like transparency approach it is actually very good.

  342. Ge0rG

    coinks sounds like a pig.

  343. SaltyBones

    if you spell it like that it sounds like COIN-X another cryptocurrency

  344. Ge0rG

    or that.

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  348. jonasw

    moparisthebest, didn’t you set up some ALPN test host?

  349. jonasw

    or domain?

  350. moparisthebest

    haven't set up the tests yet no, but mine requires alpn on the first record over ipv4

  351. jonasw

    I’d need something which always requires ALPN for the tests to be useful

  352. jonasw

    (I want to add that to the aioxmpp test suite)

  353. moparisthebest

    no don't have that yet sorry

  354. jonasw

    ah, pity

  355. moparisthebest

    you could use firewall rules to fake it, but then tests might only pass/fail on your machine

  356. jonasw

    yeah, I want to run that in travis CI

  357. moparisthebest

    probably easier to set up a test host yourself honestly :P

  358. Zash

    Can openssl s_server?

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  379. edhelas


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  381. Ge0rG

    > Status - A Mobile OS, Built for Ethereum. No further questions. I rest my case.

  382. Zash

    Objection, relevance?

  383. Ge0rG

    Bullshit Bingo Strike.

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  388. moparisthebest

    that's really all XSF is missing

  389. moparisthebest

    a marketing team full of master bullshitters

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  394. vanitasvitae

    I read the URL like "status invests 5 minutes in riot im" :D

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  396. moparisthebest

    hey, that's the same amount I invested in riot im

  397. SaltyBones


  398. SaltyBones

    Furthermore, the collaboration between Status and Matrix is expected to: Utilize the Status Network token within Riot.im by enabling crypto assets

  399. SaltyBones

    they are bying influence and users

  400. vanitasvitae

    I actually tested it for a few weeks. The thing that dragged me back to xmpp/conversations was that the app could not receive messages when closed.

  401. vanitasvitae

    SaltyBones, sounds a little bit like the Telegram blockchain thingy

  402. SaltyBones

    vanitasvitae, did you test riot/matrix or whisper?

  403. moparisthebest

    I found it more confusing than any other IM app I've ever used

  404. moparisthebest

    and then I tried installing it on my wife's phone and messaging my username

  405. vanitasvitae

    SaltyBones, I tested the app from fdroid

  406. moparisthebest

    but then my IRC account on freenode got the message instead

  407. SaltyBones

    I mean, the fact that the app cannot receive messages while closed it unlikely to be a protocol restriction

  408. moparisthebest


  409. SaltyBones

    I mean, the fact that the app cannot receive messages while closed is unlikely to be a protocol restriction

  410. vanitasvitae

    yeah, my phone doesnt have gcm

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  412. vanitasvitae

    but I gave it the same permissions I also gave conversations

  413. jonasw

    moparisthebest, wtf

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  415. moparisthebest

    jonasw, well turns out they have an always on freenode gateway, so if you search 'moparisthebest' in riot.im that came up before my new username :P

  416. moparisthebest

    still was confusing before I figured it out

  417. moparisthebest

    basically would not mark it 'easy to use'

  418. jonasw

    so you can search arbitrary users on freenode in riot.im?

  419. moparisthebest

    I've never accidentally messaged someone on freenode from conversations

  420. moparisthebest


  421. jonasw


  422. moparisthebest

    but nothing clearly said 'this is an IRC user on freenode'

  423. edhelas

    who want to write some BS articles on the XMPP blog ? then we can get some funding to buy pizzas and stickers for the next Summit ?

  424. moparisthebest

    that's the problem, we need a master BS artist, and we are (all?) programmers

  425. edhelas

    like "5 steps to transfer your BTC with XMPP", "VR over XMPP, we tested it and it's trully amazing", "You'll never guess what they've done with XMPP"

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  427. edhelas

    (for the last one just write how you can change the lights colors by sending <messages> :D)

  428. jonasw

    or maybe my actual thing which transports sensor data over XMPP

  429. jonasw

    and public transport departure times

  430. jonasw

    and shows it on an LCD

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  434. Dave Cridland

    5 facts about XMPP: You'll never believe number four!

  435. moparisthebest

    is it that it uses XML

  436. Dave Cridland

    XMPP uses XML and people just can't handle it!

  437. jonasw

    There is a binary serialization of XML which is very compact!

  438. moparisthebest

    so compact that no one even uses it!

  439. Guus

    Dave, if you keep this up, I'm taking away your Facebook access again.

  440. moparisthebest

    so there are some interesting articles about XMPP and such, it just doesn't always call-out THIS IS XMPP https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/595zg5/sopranica-jmp-wom-cell-network-diy-anonymous

  441. moparisthebest

    it might be neat to have an xmpp dedicated blog to talk about cool stuff being done with xmpp today, but I couldn't write articles, I'm bad with words :)

  442. moparisthebest

    here's another one https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xm5v3/this-software-developer-is-making-a-surveillance-free-cell-phone-network (same topic)

  443. jonasw

    do we have a planet XMPP?

  444. jonasw

    like planet python

  445. moparisthebest

    maybe the xsf should just hire ossguy / Denver Gingerich to do it's marketing :)

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  448. SamWhited

    We do have a planet XMPP… but I don't think anyone has used planets in years, so I'm not sure how much good it does. I don't even remember where it lives

  449. SamWhited

    jonasw: https://planet.jabber.org/

  450. SamWhited

    ossguys marketing works because he's marketing a service; the XSF doesn't have a service to market.

  451. moparisthebest

    that's basically half the problem, some of us want to market cisco's trademarked term, others don't :P

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  455. SamWhited

    I don't think that's a problem or matters at all; the problem is that we want to market an abstract network and ecosystem of different products. Regardless of what we call it, people aren't going to be able to grasp that and it's just going to sound too confusing.

  456. moparisthebest

    that makes sense, what about just marketing FOSS stuff that uses XMPP though

  457. moparisthebest

    jmp.chat being one example of many

  458. SamWhited

    Yah, that seems good to me. People can grasp what jmp.chat or Conversations.im is; they don't need to know the protocol, just that there's a cool new chat service

  459. SamWhited

    And maybe somewhere it has an "XMPP Certified" or "Jabber Compatible" badge or something along those lines; most people won't care, those that do can find it.

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  474. SamWhited

    Guus, Kev: I just noticed some XEPs that shouldn't be in the list and the website build appears to have failed 4 days ago and not run since then, FYI

  475. Kev

    Ta. something for after the summit, I think.

  476. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: "Jabber Compatible" is what we need a new Jabber Software Alliance for!

  477. Zash

    No, first we need a funny backronym and a shiny website and a billion dolares in marketing budget

  478. Guus

    Sam, I'm not understanding the details of what you're writing. I'm missing a comma, somewhere, I thnk :)

  479. Ge0rG

    Zash: we are full of "funny" backronyms, like SCAM. And nobody is going to give us billions, nor even millions of dollars.

  480. Ge0rG

    Maybe we can make a JabberCoin ICO.

  481. SamWhited

    Guus: sorry, that was confusing. The website hasn't been rebuilt for 4 days so the /extensions list is not up to date.

  482. SamWhited

    Guus: https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/ba3edxw2vyssrdcnovd6gps/

  483. Guus

    that's light on details :/

  484. Guus

    I can try to kick it off again?

  485. SamWhited

    sounds good, thanks

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  487. Guus

    SamWhited: it's building now. For future reference: it should pick up any change in github (so you can trigger it by committing something). It should also be triggered by a successful build of the XEPs repo.

  488. SamWhited

    oh, I should have thought of that, thanks

  489. Guus

    (or rather, github pushes to XEPs will cause the XEPs dockerhub to kick off, which in turn will kick off the website one)

  490. SamWhited

    I just made a change, so I guess that would have rebuilt it soon anyways

  491. Guus

    ah, probably. I've now only delayed your change by triggering a manual build.

  492. jjrh

    A weekly "whats going on in XMPP" would be cool sorta like http://sachachua.com/blog/2018/01/2018-01-23-emacs-news/

  493. jjrh

    But I feel like that would have already happened if someone had the time.

  494. jjrh

    I have planet jabber in my rss reader though and it picks up a lot of stuff. It misses is what's happening in XSF-Standards that I gotta actually read my email ;)

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  496. edhelas

    jjrh you should have Planet Jabber in your Pubsub feed reader :p

  497. edhelas

    you know "eat your own food" :p

  498. jjrh

    edhelas, any client recommendations?

  499. edhelas

    Movim :)

  500. jjrh

    I'll have to try it out.

  501. edhelas

    just wait ~10min, i've added the feed, it will appears soon

  502. edhelas

    but there's already a bunch of them :

  503. edhelas

    https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/ArsTechnica for example

  504. jjrh

    so they are called 'communities' ?

  505. edhelas

    yup :)

  506. edhelas

    because "Pubsub Node" is too mainstream

  507. jjrh

    Gajim apparently has pubsub support but I never really figured out how to make it work.

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  509. jjrh

    Thought it would be good for stuff like notifications/alerts and the like for the office. Better than spamming the group chat with a bot :P Folks can easily opt in or out

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  511. jjrh

    https://de.movim.eu/?community/news.movim.eu/PlanetJabber there it is :D

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  533. Neustradamus

    Any news about clients and servers removed on XMPP.org lists?

  534. Neustradamus

    "After a verification on xmpp.org, I found that the list has been changed, in the past when I managed the list, it will be more important. Psi and Psi+ have not in list, why? https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html http://psi-im.org/ + http://psi-plus.com/ Really strange for historical XMPP clients Metronome is not listed too on https://xmpp.org/software/servers.html https://metronome.im/ It was before ;)"

  535. moparisthebest

    Neustradamus: they need renewed annually or get removed automatically

  536. Neustradamus

    moparisthebest thanks for your reply! it is strange

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