XSF Discussion - 2018-01-30

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  60. jonasw

    Neustradamus, where would we have to have announce that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up?

  61. Ge0rG

    There was a piece of news indeed.

  62. jonasw

    Neustradamus, where would we have to have announced that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up?

  63. jonasw

    english is hard

  64. Ge0rG

    My clients will expire in March. Need to resubmit urgently.

  65. Guus

    ah, are we already a year in?

  66. Guus

    time flies

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  68. Ge0rG

    fruit flies too

  69. jonasw

    like an arrow, or like a banana?

  70. intosi

    Unspecified fruit.

  71. Ge0rG

    Like a sparrow.

  72. jonasw

    I always forget I have merge power on xmpp.org. I should recall that more often while Guus is busy with SCAMing.

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  74. Guus


  75. Guus

    *click* miss *click* miss (<-- me, this morning)

  76. jonasw

    Guus, I think you’ve set OLCUC in your termin… oh you fixed it

  77. jonasw


  78. jonasw

    I only merged one thing, didn’t I?

  79. Guus

    and closed an issue :)

  80. jonasw

    ah right

  81. jonasw

    that’s going to be a fun discussion

  82. jonasw

    oh sweet, the build failed

  83. jonasw

    Guus, or someone else with power, could you take a look? https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/borgns4wfclmgndzdyqvnjc/

  84. jonasw

    the CI passed

  85. jonasw

    a simple re-trigger may do the trick

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  87. jonasw

    (I don’t have the power for that)

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  90. Guus

    again? Same thing happened yesterday

  91. jonasw

    I pushed an empty commit now :)

  92. Guus


  93. Guus

    right, a new build is already queued

  94. Guus

    I wonder why it errors out occasionally

  95. Guus

    Do you see a non-empty log or something?

  96. jonasw


  97. jonasw

    I was hoping you might, with your additional permissions etc.

  98. Guus


  99. Guus


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  111. Neustradamus

    jonasw: here some days ago

  112. jonasw

    Neustradamus, well, the policy has been active for nearly a year now

  113. jonasw

    so clearly we haven’t done a good job communicating it

  114. jonasw

    but I’d like to know what we could’ve done better

  115. Neustradamus

    yes I managed before (some years ago) ^^ The lists were more importants

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  117. jonasw

    Neustradamus, cf. https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/

  118. Neustradamus

    thanks jonasw

  119. Ge0rG

    The idea behind that rule is btw that *application authors* enlist their software, as long as they consider it as maintained.

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  123. Guus

    (I for one don't care much about _who_ is doing the listing, as long as _someone_ is keeping it up-to-date - that's enough to keep the really old, unmaintained and undesireable stuff out of the list)

  124. Ge0rG

    Guus: the effect I want to avoid is that loyal users of a client abandoned a decade ago insist on keeping it listed.

  125. Guus

    well, if it has loyal users, it probably has at least some reason for being listed

  126. Guus

    arguably not the best of reasons, but I'd be able to live with it

  127. Guus

    (if it has loyal users, it's by definition not completely abandoned)

  128. Ge0rG

    Guus: and then you'll end up with Pidgin/OTR, which breaks the experience both for the newcomers and the people they are trying to talk to.

  129. Guus

    Ge0rG: if people want to use pidgin / OTR, then that's an issue that's to be addressed seperately.

  130. Guus

    I think we shouldn't put to much thought/motivation in the decision we make to list something. What we have now is something that I'm pretty happy with.

  131. Ge0rG

    Guus: the list is obviously for newcomers. If you have a friend who insists on you getting abused with pidgin/OTR (just to stick to the example), that's fine with me. But please keep it off the official list.

  132. Guus

    let's not overthink something that works 95% well.

  133. mathieui

    Ge0rG, I’m planning to write an XMPP bot that reminds subscribed people about the expiration from the list of clients/servers/libraries (when I have 15 minutes and enough motivation)

  134. mathieui

    that would help

  135. Ge0rG

    mathieui: that would be awesome.

  136. Guus

    perhaps we should _not_ do that

  137. Guus

    as that will facilitate automatic, no-brains-used, renewals

  138. Ge0rG

    mathieui: I suppose all the proposals of client maintainers having a structured metadata file somewhere are way too complex

  139. Guus

    which would cause the list to fill up with stale data again.

  140. mathieui

    Ge0rG, I don’t

  141. mathieui

    but it would need to be done (we discussed it briefly at 34C3)

  142. Guus

    I do disagree with there being a need for automatic renewal, or a reminder facilitated by the XSF.

  143. mathieui

    Guus, I wasn’t planning of having it being any kind of official

  144. Guus

    the thought behind the forced expiry is that people need to actively be maintaining the software listing. Any form of automation fights that principle.

  145. mathieui

    it’s automation of reminder; when doing things once a year, it’s very easy to forget

  146. Guus

    mathieui: you really don't need to wait a year to apply for a renewal. I think I've renewed my stuff about three times, last year

  147. Guus

    (pushing the expiry date by a couple of months every time)

  148. Ge0rG

    Guus: just because you can directly commit to the repo, everybody else needs to make a PR

  149. Guus

    the PR can be made in github (which is exactly what I do)

  150. Guus

    PRs get accepted within a couple of hours, typically

  151. Ge0rG

    Guus: by yourself? ;)

  152. Ge0rG

    I'm just saying that it would be impolite for any non-editor to make updates far more often than strictly necessary.

  153. Guus

    two / three times a year is hardly 'far more'

  154. Guus

    I'm not saying that individual authors should have some kind of reminder - but please lets not facilitate that - it defeats the purpose of our expiry mechanism - that's all I'm saying.

  155. mathieui

    Ge0rG, this is only a one-line change with an explicit title, so it’s essentially a two-three clicks effort for editors

  156. mathieui

    I guess I’ll just put that in the topic of the poezio room

  157. Guus

    fwiw: the readme provides links that allow you to directly edit the files: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data

  158. Ge0rG

    There are only nine warnings in clients.json. Apparently nobody cares about the `platform` field.

  159. Ge0rG

    WARN: entry 'GreenJab': undefined platforms: 'IBM i' (the allowed platforms are listed in platforms.json. If you think a platform is missing add it and mention it in your Pull Request)

  160. Ge0rG

    WTH is IBM i?

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  162. Ge0rG

    jonasw: time to swing the Hammer of Enforcement!

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  164. Ge0rG

    Guus: thanks very much :)

  165. Ge0rG

    So, what's with all those clients running on undefined platforms?

  166. Guus

    what do you mean?

  167. Guus

    https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html <-- looks okay?

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  169. Guus

    I'm guestimating that we kept the old list intact, including the no-longer-supported-platforms, only to enfore platforms when the entry is actually renewed?

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  171. Ge0rG

    Guus: oh, thanks for the explanation.

  172. Ge0rG

    Guus: interested in a s/unsupported/"other"/ PR?

  173. Guus

    well, if the entries with unsupported stuff have not been renewed and therefore are not being displayed anyway, I don't really see the point - but let me not stop you putting in effort to improve things :)

  174. rion

    Guus: is the list on the page autogenerated?

  175. Ge0rG

    rion: yes it is

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  177. Ge0rG

    it'll probably take some minutes

  178. Guus

    yeah, it takes some time

  179. Guus

    psi is on there now though

  180. Ge0rG

    rion: what's the difference between Psi and Psi+?

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  185. jonasw

    Ge0rG, don’t bother with replacing unsupported platforms with "other". we’ll deal with it when they’re renewed, I think that’s most sane.

  186. jonasw

    Ge0rG, admit it, you spoofed the timestamps of your renewal!

  187. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I wanted to see if anyone notices.

  188. jonasw


  189. jonasw

    I do

  190. jonasw

    (but I only did because you lured me into the diff with the trademark remark)

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  194. rion

    Ge0rG: Psi+ includes some experimental patches not yet merged to Psi.

  195. Guus

    I happily accept anything that passes the parser (which does have a check for forward-dated renewals)

  196. Guus

    also, I happily accept stuff from people I deem trustworthy.

  197. Guus eyes Ge0rG

  198. jonasw

    not sure if that is a good glance or not

  199. zinid

    rion, when psi will support carbons, mam, SM and so on?

  200. Ge0rG

    rion: which one would you recommend to normal users?

  201. zinid

    you should really hate users to recommend them Psi :P

  202. rion

    zinid: carbons and SM are supported. mam is in progress.

  203. rion

    Ge0rG: stable one.

  204. zinid

    rion, supported in which version?

  205. rion

    zinid: one on https://psi-im.org

  206. Ge0rG

    rion: maybe you shouldn't be advertising psi+ then? ;)

  207. rion

    Ge0rG: It depends on users. Some of them like new features.

  208. jonasw

    rion, the question is, is Psi+ stable?

  209. rion

    Less then Psi. But mostly yes. We don't make releases for it. So it's possible to have something broken with each next build.

  210. jonasw

    rion, I’d argue don’t advertise this on the client list then

  211. Ge0rG

    I agree with jonasw - if you don't have releases, you shouldn't be advertising it to normal users.

  212. SouL

    rion, I'm suprised you saying that about Psi+

  213. SouL

    I've been using it for... I cannot remember

  214. SouL

    And I would not say is not stable or anything

  215. SouL

    I'm really surprised. And features don't come to Psi quickly in any way.

  216. SouL

    Or have that changed?

  217. rion

    for example if you enable multi-row tabs you can have rare crashes and kind of bad rendering on hidpi.

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  220. rion

    I use Psi+ all the time. It's works pretty stable for me. But usually I don't use the features introduced by those patches.

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  224. rion

    SouL: My goal after all to merge these projects into one. And I already merged quite a big chunk of patches. Psi+ keeps only those I considered bad-designed, useless or unstable. I'll refine and merge them all with time or may be some of them will be converted to plugins.

  225. Kev

    One of the XSF's earliest GSoC projects :)

  226. Kev

    (Although I doubt there's much relationship between the current code and the original)

  227. SouL

    rion, that sounds great! I understand now then :(

  228. SouL


  229. rion

    or may be I'll join Swift team instead )))

  230. SouL

    Ha :D

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  235. Kev

    I hear that's a thing Psi devs sometimes do.

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  237. Ge0rG

    Is remuneration involved in that process?

  238. rion


  239. Guus

    > (12:03) test: is xmpp providing gradle ?

  240. jonasw


  241. Guus

    that's form our support muc just now

  242. Ge0rG

    I've lost motivation to report issues in Swift rather fast, because all my tickets were closed immediately with either "moved to private tracker" or WONTFIX.

  243. Ge0rG

    Guus: the right answer is: "no, because gradle is not based on XML. But we offer ant"

  244. Guus


  245. Ge0rG

    Can do.

  246. zinid

    rion, didn't work for me

  247. Ge0rG

    zinid: you were a Psi developer?

  248. zinid

    Ge0rG, no

  249. zinid

    I tried last version and it didn't have any carbons or sm support

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  251. Ge0rG

    You don't need Carbons on a desktop client. Just configure it to priority 127 and beg that nobody does resource locking.

  252. zinid


  253. zinid

    typical jabber

  254. rion

    zinid: no idea. I believe this code wasn't changed since the release. and both features work good for me.

  255. rion

    I'll check later

  256. Ge0rG

    I only remember that this time last year, Psi didn't have support for Carbons.

  257. Ge0rG

    so CVE-2017-5593 only affected Psi+

  258. zinid

    rion, just checked 1.3, seems like SM and Carbons are working indeed, thanks

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  260. zinid

    still MAM is lacking...

  261. zinid

    and modern UI would be much appreciated

  262. zinid

    wow, captcha support

  263. zinid

    I'm impressed

  264. SouL


  265. zinid

    rion, Psi doesn't close a stream correctly, which leads to stalled resumed session ;)

  266. zinid

    it must send </stream:stream>

  267. rion

    Yes. I know. I remember this bug and in fact Psi has code sending stream close. I had no spare time to debug yet.

  268. zinid

    I see

  269. zinid

    the main problem of jabber is that development is done in spare time only ;)

  270. MattJ


  271. jonasw

    and when it isn’t, it actually flies, kinda. see c.im

  272. rion

    zinid: do you have a vacancy in ProcessOne? =)

  273. zinid

    rion, no :) We already fired a half of staff

  274. mimi89999


  275. rion

    Now they will keep working in working on xmpp in their spare time...

  276. zinid

    mimi89999, because the number of customers has decreased drastically in recent years since XMPP is degrading

  277. zinid

    so we don't need an army of developers anymore

  278. mimi89999


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  280. mimi89999

    But why people don't like XMPP? I guess FB hidden marketing and network effect is really strong...

  281. Holger

    It's neither HTTP nor JSON.

  282. zinid

    mimi89999: because it has a reputation of outdated protocol

  283. MattJ

    I think it would be a mistake to pin a company's success on a protocol's reputation

  284. zinid

    One may argue, but the problem is that reputation is not a technical term, you cannot improve it by creating a better protocol

  285. MattJ

    SMTP isn't exactly cool nowadays either, but it still does the job it was designed to and many successful companies are based around it still

  286. zinid

    MattJ: sure, but protocol degradation is a part of this for sure, I know that because you cannot attract new customer because they don't want xmpp

  287. zinid

    So we actually stopped mentioning xmpp at all

  288. Holger

    MattJ: SMTP is a special case because it was so ubiquitous, no? I bet business around it is declining as well, just from a very high level.

  289. mimi89999

    Point them to good articles about XMPP.

  290. mimi89999

    Like that Json API on HTTP is better (not).

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  292. MattJ

    Holger, as far as standard IM protocols go, I'd say XMPP is fairly ubiquitous

  293. zinid

    MattJ: not in the sense of user base

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  296. MattJ

    Combine WhatsApp with Google and (once...) Facebook and that's a fairly large user base

  297. MattJ

    What failed is that none of these federate(d) in the way they were essentially forced to with SMTP

  298. zinid

    It's hard to call whatsapp's protocol an xmpp 😁

  299. MattJ

    It's derived from it, at least, and I think that counts enough for the purposes of this discussion

  300. zinid

    It used to be so (because based on ejabberd), but not anymore

  301. Holger

    MattJ: Well the discussion was about the business perspective, where I think WhatsApp & friends are irrelevant. If you build your business around SMTP, you can still reach many users; with XMPP, you reach nobody.

  302. Holger

    I'm not into p1's business but I would assume the typical customer isn't doing s2s at all.

  303. MattJ

    Most business uses of XMPP are not interested in federation

  304. zinid

    Holger: there was only a single customer with s2s: Nokia 😁

  305. MattJ

    so, if you wanted to replicate the success of WhatsApp, why would not not start with XMPP, as they did?

  306. Holger

    MattJ: Right. So the alternative is XMPP vs. random other chat solutions and the open aspect is irrelevant except in that it leads to library/infrastructure code being available.

  307. MattJ

    I don't think anyone expects to take any off-the-shelf tech and scale it as far as WhatsApp have done without customisation

  308. zinid

    MattJ: many do: every our customer wants to become WhatsApp 😁

  309. rion

    Let's rename XMPP to WhatsApp2 protocol

  310. MattJ

    Well WhatsApp's success wasn't due to federation, or its protocol - these things are irrelevant to users

  311. zinid

    MattJ: then there is no point in using xmpp? Because it's irrelevant

  312. MattJ

    There's similarly no point in *not* using it

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  314. Holger


  315. Holger


  316. jonasw

    what Holger says

  317. MattJ

    Which is the point I'm trying to make - if you're solving a problem for your customers, why do they care about the protocol?

  318. jonasw

    MattJ, because HTTP passes through all firewalls, XMPP won’t.

  319. MattJ

    and like many other problems, XMPP already solved that

  320. jonasw

    did it?

  321. MattJ

    (in many ways, as usual)

  322. MattJ


  323. jonasw

    by bother with BOSH+XMPP when you could use HTTP+json on your own?

  324. MattJ

    BOSH works perfectly through firewalls

  325. jonasw

    (in addition to BOSH being ugly and you’d want to use websockets nowadays)

  326. MattJ

    Well, we can do that too

  327. Holger

    There's JavaScript frameworks everywhere to throw JSON at a web service.

  328. MattJ

    I still don't think BOSH is ugly compared to websockets though :)

  329. Holger

    A new framework every other day!

  330. Kev

    Is that true? That you'd automatically want WSS instead of BOSH?

  331. Holger

    And all your devs have done this stuff several times.

  332. jonasw

    Kev, tbh, I don’t know a lot about web

  333. Holger

    None of them ever touched that XMP-what?! thing.

  334. jonasw

    but the concept of BOSH always irritated me

  335. jonasw

    Holger, and all the darn myths about XML aren’t helping

  336. Holger


  337. jonasw

    (even though it is amusing to see how the JSON folks reinvent the XML data model)

  338. Holger


  339. zinid

    MattJ: bosh is much more complicated for sure and infact replicates SM behaviour

  340. Kev

    295 is funny because it's true :p

  341. jonasw

    Kev, oh yes

  342. MattJ

    zinid, sure - I've written multiple BOSH implementations, client and server-side

  343. Holger

    MattJ: I'm not saying the typical business decision against XMPP is purely rational. Though I'm not sure it's purely irrational. But either way it doesn't help to just ignore those business reasonings.

  344. zinid

    MattJ: same here and I hate it

  345. zinid

    I actually don't understand why wss+sm is not enough

  346. jonasw

    zinid, because ws is rather new-ish and people haven’t gotten around to implement it yet?

  347. jonasw

    (spare time developers)

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  349. Holger

    I think jcbrand mentioned that Converse.js supports both but he prefers BOSH. He didn't really explain the reasons though, IIRC.

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  352. zinid

    jonasw: newish? The RFC was accepted in October 2014, it will be 4 years soon

  353. jonasw

    zinid, yes.

  354. jonasw

    that’s newish in spare time developer terms

  355. zinid


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  357. jonasw

    or maybe it’s just me because I don’t follow web technologies a lot

  358. zinid

    But can we start recommending it instead of bosh?

  359. zinid

    Clearly we have several specs with the same functionality again

  360. MattJ

    The working group that created websockets looked at BOSH and considered it, or something very like it, to be the foundation of websockets

  361. zinid

    And "IE9 doesn't support WS" is not terribly convincing 😁

  362. MattJ

    I think ultimately BOSH is something you can already do in JS yourself, a binary-safe guaranteed persistent connection is not

  363. zinid

    I didn't get that, but whatever

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  369. Holger

    Seems XEP section anchors such as this one aren't stable? -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139605353378912

  370. MattJ

    I've always assumed they are not

  371. MattJ

    I don't know where they come from though

  372. Holger


  373. jonasw

    Holger, normally, the anchor is set in the code

  374. Holger

    I referenced that section (in an ejabberd issue) yesterday and it seems the anchor has changed since then.

  375. jonasw

    it’s not been set there :(

  376. jonasw

    we can now either set the current id as persistent, the old id as persistent or an arbitrary new identifier.

  377. jonasw

    pick one

  378. Holger

    Sometimes there's human-readable identifiers, right? They're much nicer of course.

  379. Ge0rG

    +1 for human-readable identifiers :>

  380. jonasw

    Holger, yeah. as mentioned, those are set in the XEP XML

  381. jonasw

    when they’re not set, they’re generated "randomly" apparently

  382. jonasw

    so I can now either set a human-readable one or one of the random IDs

  383. zinid

    Humans in XMPP detected

  384. Ge0rG

    jonasw: set a human readable one

  385. Ge0rG

    Then make a linter script to check all XEPs. Then crowdsource slugification

  386. jonasw

    I wish I had time to finish xeplint

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  390. jonasw

    Holger, fix pushed, will be live in ~1.5h

  391. jonasw

    new anchor is #business-storeret-user-archives

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  394. Holger

    jonasw: Thank you!

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  460. Ge0rG

    Should a MUC-PM notification follow the rules for message notifications, for MUC notifications or have a dedicated notification preference?

  461. Ge0rG

    ...regarding the notification sound

  462. SouL

    I would use the same as 1to1 chat

  463. moparisthebest

    I'd say from a user perspective they are the same, both messages I want to see

  464. moparisthebest

    unless I silenced notifications for that muc/user

  465. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: "they" = what?

  466. moparisthebest

    "they" = muc-pm / regular message

  467. Ge0rG

    so different from MUCs.

  468. moparisthebest

    yea mucs too

  469. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: please re-read my question.

  470. SouL

    Ge0rG, I would follow the rules for message notifications.

  471. moparisthebest


  472. Ge0rG

    SouL: thanks, I got your answer.

  473. rion

    I also think MUC-PM and regular contacts should produce the same notification

  474. Ge0rG

    MUCs are different if only they also have a "only notify on mention" setting

  475. Ge0rG

    Ah, it seems like MUC-PMs are already handled in the same way.

  476. Ge0rG

    So you don't see a need for their own category? Great.

  477. rion

    special notifications could be set to special contacts ❤️ =)

  478. Ge0rG

    I'm planning to have a per-contact-group ringtone, but what do you do if a contact is in multiple groups?

  479. Ge0rG

    alphabetically first group wins?

  480. rion

    play all at once :-D

  481. Ge0rG

    rion: you are evil :P

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  485. SouL

    jonasw, what is (or was) c.im?

  486. moparisthebest

    usually people abbreviate conversations.im that way

  487. SouL

    moparisthebest, ah ok then

  488. Ge0rG

    c.im is the new jcd.

  489. Guus

    what is the old jcd?

  490. Ge0rG


  491. Guus

    ah :)

  492. hannes has left

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  494. Holger

    c.im is available for sale!

  495. Holger

    I bet it's cheap.

  496. MattJ

    For $$$$, I guess

  497. edhelas

    I was able the get back mov.im last year <3

  498. Ge0rG

    Sorry, c.im has already been registered.

  499. Alex has left

  500. SouL

    edhelas: congrats! :)

  501. SouL

    The one I want is only $2600

  502. Ge0rG


  503. moparisthebest

    I was eyeing moparisthe.best but not worth it nowadays

  504. Ge0rG

    I have two domains with my lastname on dubious TLDs.

  505. Ge0rG

    People are always surprised when I tell them on the phone

  506. jonasw


  507. Ge0rG

    Not even close

  508. SouL


  509. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, I have the same, tell people on the phone my first name @ my last name dot org

  510. SouL


  511. moparisthebest

    then they go 'at gmail?' and I go 'no'

  512. jonasw

    moparisthebest, :<

  513. jonasw

    I know that feel

  514. jonasw

    but I think it’s because many people are stupid and confuse . with @ when spelling their mail address

  515. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: and .org is pretty well-known

  516. moparisthebest

    I actually get odder looks/questions now that I switched to mostly giving like, if the company is BobWorks I'd give first.bobworks@last.org

  517. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: that's crazy talk!

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  520. moparisthebest

    I like it because while a human could figure it out and strip off the part after the .

  521. Ge0rG

    first.bobworks@last! yay!

  522. moparisthebest

    a computer program totally couldn't because it's a perfectly valid email, and they don't know that's my policy like they know + is strippable from gmail

  523. jonasw

    reminds me of the "io" tld which had A records for a while

  524. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: do you think they actively strip +postfix from gmail addresses?

  525. moparisthebest

    I assume spammers do, why wouldn't they?

  526. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: dunno

  527. moparisthebest

    or sleazy companies that would sell an email address

  528. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: maybe because they are careless sleazy bastards?

  529. moparisthebest

    if only I could get a saner way to handle such aliases in xmpp

  530. moparisthebest

    but it looks like far too much work to be worth it

  531. Ge0rG

    Yeah, XMPP sucks.

  532. jonasw

    go matrix?

  533. Ge0rG

    OTOH, this feature prevents domain / user impersonation.

  534. moparisthebest

    this module is 'good enough' in that it fixes discovery https://modules.prosody.im/mod_alias.html

  535. moparisthebest

    but doesn't avoid the 'giving randoms your jid' problem

  536. SouL

    XMPP alias please!

  537. Guus has left

  538. SouL

    When are we starting with the XEP?

  539. Ge0rG

    I'm sure there are two or three already.

  540. moparisthebest

    it's perfectly doable with just changes on *your* server

  541. moparisthebest

    it's just super annoying, like if a@a.com sends a message to both b.alias1@b.com and b.alias2@b.com, and b responds, which jid do you send it from

  542. SaltyBones has joined

  543. moparisthebest

    and it involves a lot of jid rewriting, databases and such

  544. Ge0rG


  545. moparisthebest

    I guess maybe if you added client support too that would make it easier, but meh

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  547. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I would assume that you use proxy JIDs for different aliases on your side, so it would be something like a%a.com@b.alias1.b.com

  548. moparisthebest

    the advantage of support just on *your* server is you don't need a XEP because there is no interop to document :)

  549. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, in my case I'd want it to match all my email aliases, which are a defined list of specific ones, plus me(\.|+|-)[^@]*@all-the-domains

  550. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: your server could just track the alias the other user contacted first.

  551. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: and auto-route accordingly

  552. moparisthebest

    yep that's an option, probably the best one, still not perfect

  553. Ge0rG

    probably good enough.

  554. jonasw

    reminds me of resource locking

  555. jonasw

    sounds like a can of worms

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  557. moparisthebest

    it's totally a can of worms

  558. zinid


  559. moparisthebest

    hence "This type of aliasing is well supported in the email world, but very hard to handle with XMPP, this module sidesteps all the hard problems by just sending the user a helpful message, requiring humans to decide what they actually want to do."

  560. Guus has left

  561. SaltyBones

    oh, it's basically a standardized auto-reply

  562. SaltyBones

    or jid squatting ;)

  563. Ge0rG


  564. Ge0rG


  565. Ge0rG

    We need more JID mobility.

  566. Zash

    Do we, really?

  567. Ge0rG

    Zash: I'd like to have an easy and fully automated way to move all my contacts from my old JID to my new JID

  568. moparisthebest

    I just have a number of emails, 2 main ones, and I like all my emails also being JIDs, isn't that the ideal situation?

  569. Ge0rG

    kind of moved, but automatic

  570. Zash

    Ge0rG: How often do you move JIDs?

  571. Ge0rG

    Zash: whenever the 6-month free period on c.im expires

  572. jonasw


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  575. Zash

    This ties back into the question of what identity is.

  576. SouL

    Ge0rG: haha

  577. Zash

    Ge0rG: Why can't we automate moved again?

  578. Ge0rG

    Zash: because SECURITY11!!1!! > In order to prevent other users from maliciously altering contacts the client SHOULD NOT automatically subscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives an unsubscribe and SHOULD NOT automatically unsubscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives a subscribe.

  579. Ge0rG

    Then followed by some constructed attack vector where some JIDs are auto-approved and others are not.

  580. jonasw


  581. Ge0rG


  582. Zash

    -xep moved

  583. Bunneh

    Zash: Moved (Standards Track, Deferred, 2010-06-16) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html

  584. SaltyBones

    Ge0rG, if we add a crypto identity we can base moving on that. (Sounds crazy but I am not kidding.)

  585. jonasw

    Ge0rG, that seems solvable, trivially

  586. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: I've thought about that.

  587. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: that would make the public key your effective identity, and the JID just a helper string.

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  589. Zash

    Which isn't really the design of XMPP

  590. SaltyBones

    Considering how much we are thinking about those things I think we should start writing things down...

  591. jonasw

    oldjid unsubscribes with <moved token='xyz' new='…'/>, newjid subscribes with <moved token='xyz' old='…'/> and only then a potential reverse-subscription is re-enacted by the target

  592. Ge0rG

    jonasw: feel free to pick up authorship of 283, bringing it up to pace and convincing clients to implement.

  593. jonasw

    Ge0rG, would that work? ^

  594. Ge0rG

    clients or servers.

  595. jonasw

    would have to figure something out for one-way (stable jid to moving jid) subscriptions

  596. Ge0rG

    jonasw: no need for a token. you can prove ownership of both JIDs by just issuing the according <moved> stanzas.

  597. jonasw


  598. jonasw

    that’s what happens already though

  599. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I've written down all that, before I knew of Moved, into the wiki

  600. Ge0rG

    but then it got lost

  601. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: yes, let's reinvent XMPP as something else.

  602. jonasw

    so yeah, it’s really only about some weird one-way casse

  603. Ge0rG

    maybe an "OMEMO distribution protocol".

  604. jonasw

    I don’t think we should care about that too much

  605. Ge0rG

    jonasw: the hard part is figuring out the right order of events to make it work automatically. That and server-side caching of subscribe/unsubscribe presence packets.

  606. Ge0rG

    Don't remember the exact rules

  607. Ge0rG

    BTW, when is PARS bound to expire?

  608. Alex has joined

  609. jonasw

    defer, you mean?

  610. jonasw


  611. jonasw

    !xep 379

  612. SaltyBones

    Ge0rG, is this about the crypto IDs?

  613. jonasw

    Ge0rG, february 16th

  614. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: I'm not sure.

  615. Alex has joined

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  617. Ge0rG

    jonasw: wow, need to add some more meat to it until then.

  618. jonasw

    I need to get some ecaps2 implmenetation in some server

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  638. Holger

    Seems https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ has the current XEP-0363 revision (0.4.0) but not the two 0.3.x revisions.

  639. hannes has joined

  640. zinid

    Holger, this is not the only such XEP, I recall I couldn't find old versions of MAM or something

  641. Holger


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  684. jonasw

    Holger, yes

  685. jonasw

    attic is a manual process

  686. jonasw

    it sucks

  687. jonasw

    editors have to remember to copy them over

  688. jonasw

    I don’t remember that always

  689. Zash


  690. Holger


  691. moparisthebest

    is there a reason to have it with version control?

  692. moparisthebest

    can't a xep just be looked at at any revision?

  693. jonasw

    I already automated the copying-over of the changed versions, and if we ever get this scripting server-side, it should magically worked

  694. jonasw

    moparisthebest, yes, but you’d have to know which revision is a specific version

  695. jonasw

    if we knew that, we could generate the attic auotomatically

  696. moparisthebest


  697. jonasw

    we don’t have those

  698. moparisthebest

    (since they can be added later)

  699. jonasw

    moparisthebest, if you did those, that’d be amazing

  700. moparisthebest

    something like xep-0368-0.0.1 or something

  701. jonasw


  702. jonasw

    but it’s tedious to do

  703. Zash

    for each revision, check the last version in the source, something something

  704. moparisthebest

    would be kind of hard to back fill, could be easy going forward

  705. zinid

    tags sound like a sane idea

  706. Zash

    should be doable with way more scripting hackery than I have the energy for now

  707. jonasw

    Zash, not sufficient; sometimes version blocks are added before the last editorial change

  708. Zash

    jonasw: would it be good enough?

  709. moparisthebest

    oh hey, what about just checking out each version and matching sha1sum to a current attic xml for backfil?

  710. jonasw

    Zash, probably

  711. jonasw

    moparisthebest, except that attic doesn’t always have XMLs

  712. moparisthebest

    that would get you exactly what is in attic now, then you could tweak later

  713. jonasw

    gotta go

  714. moparisthebest

    oh, well does it *mostly* have them?

  715. Zash

    moparisthebest: maybe, assuming they haven't been changed in any way (think character encoding or newlines) since

  716. moparisthebest

    I would assume they were copied from version control and not touched

  717. moparisthebest

    could be a wrong assumption

  718. Zash

    but the HTML is not under version control

  719. Zash

    those are build artefacts, copied after build

  720. moparisthebest

    yea I think it'd only work if there was xml there

  721. Zash

    might depend on the version of xsltproc and whatnot

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  724. moparisthebest

    looks like we need editors to ping stpeter about pinging Joe Salowey again about adding xep-368 alpn IDs here https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids

  725. moparisthebest

    since last time when he said he'd add them, looks like 'CoAP' whatever that is has been added

  726. moparisthebest

    but still no xmpp love :'(

  727. Zash

    Why don't you do it?

  728. moparisthebest

    it's officially an editor task

  729. Zash

    join the editor team, send an email, retire to a life of luxury

  730. moparisthebest

    well editor team tried to ping joe salowey twice without luck, and stpeter had to take over :)

  731. moparisthebest

    I'll probably wait until stpeter joins back and ping him again hehe

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  734. moparisthebest

    https://trello.com/c/8arSL8aD/2-vote-on-moving-xep-0368-to-draft that's the card looks like

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