-
jonasw
Neustradamus, where would we have to have announce that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up?✎ -
Ge0rG
There was a piece of news indeed.
-
jonasw
Neustradamus, where would we have to have announced that information? we announced it on the jdev@ mailinglist, in this muc, on the xmpp.org blog. what was missing for people to pick this up? ✏
-
jonasw
english is hard
-
Ge0rG
My clients will expire in March. Need to resubmit urgently.
-
Guus
ah, are we already a year in?
-
Guus
time flies
-
Ge0rG
fruit flies too
-
jonasw
like an arrow, or like a banana?
-
intosi
Unspecified fruit.
-
Ge0rG
Like a sparrow.
-
jonasw
I always forget I have merge power on xmpp.org. I should recall that more often while Guus is busy with SCAMing.
-
Guus
JONAS STOP PRESSING BUTTONS MILLISECONDS BEFORE I DO!
-
Guus
*click* miss *click* miss (<-- me, this morning)
-
jonasw
Guus, I think you’ve set OLCUC in your termin… oh you fixed it
-
jonasw
:)
-
jonasw
I only merged one thing, didn’t I?
-
Guus
and closed an issue :)
-
jonasw
ah right
-
jonasw
that’s going to be a fun discussion
-
jonasw
oh sweet, the build failed
-
jonasw
Guus, or someone else with power, could you take a look? https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/borgns4wfclmgndzdyqvnjc/
-
jonasw
the CI passed
-
jonasw
a simple re-trigger may do the trick
-
jonasw
(I don’t have the power for that)
-
Guus
again? Same thing happened yesterday
-
jonasw
I pushed an empty commit now :)
-
Guus
https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xmpp.org/builds/
-
Guus
right, a new build is already queued
-
Guus
I wonder why it errors out occasionally
-
Guus
Do you see a non-empty log or something?
-
jonasw
no
-
jonasw
I was hoping you might, with your additional permissions etc.
-
Guus
weird
-
Guus
nope
-
Neustradamus
jonasw: here some days ago
-
jonasw
Neustradamus, well, the policy has been active for nearly a year now
-
jonasw
so clearly we haven’t done a good job communicating it
-
jonasw
but I’d like to know what we could’ve done better
-
Neustradamus
yes I managed before (some years ago) ^^ The lists were more importants
-
jonasw
Neustradamus, cf. https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/
-
Neustradamus
thanks jonasw
-
Ge0rG
The idea behind that rule is btw that *application authors* enlist their software, as long as they consider it as maintained.
-
Guus
(I for one don't care much about _who_ is doing the listing, as long as _someone_ is keeping it up-to-date - that's enough to keep the really old, unmaintained and undesireable stuff out of the list)
-
Ge0rG
Guus: the effect I want to avoid is that loyal users of a client abandoned a decade ago insist on keeping it listed.
-
Guus
well, if it has loyal users, it probably has at least some reason for being listed
-
Guus
arguably not the best of reasons, but I'd be able to live with it
-
Guus
(if it has loyal users, it's by definition not completely abandoned)
-
Ge0rG
Guus: and then you'll end up with Pidgin/OTR, which breaks the experience both for the newcomers and the people they are trying to talk to.
-
Guus
Ge0rG: if people want to use pidgin / OTR, then that's an issue that's to be addressed seperately.
-
Guus
I think we shouldn't put to much thought/motivation in the decision we make to list something. What we have now is something that I'm pretty happy with.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: the list is obviously for newcomers. If you have a friend who insists on you getting abused with pidgin/OTR (just to stick to the example), that's fine with me. But please keep it off the official list.
-
Guus
let's not overthink something that works 95% well.
-
mathieui
Ge0rG, I’m planning to write an XMPP bot that reminds subscribed people about the expiration from the list of clients/servers/libraries (when I have 15 minutes and enough motivation)
-
mathieui
that would help
-
Ge0rG
mathieui: that would be awesome.
-
Guus
perhaps we should _not_ do that
-
Guus
as that will facilitate automatic, no-brains-used, renewals
-
Ge0rG
mathieui: I suppose all the proposals of client maintainers having a structured metadata file somewhere are way too complex
-
Guus
which would cause the list to fill up with stale data again.
-
mathieui
Ge0rG, I don’t
-
mathieui
but it would need to be done (we discussed it briefly at 34C3)
-
Guus
I do disagree with there being a need for automatic renewal, or a reminder facilitated by the XSF.
-
mathieui
Guus, I wasn’t planning of having it being any kind of official
-
Guus
the thought behind the forced expiry is that people need to actively be maintaining the software listing. Any form of automation fights that principle.
-
mathieui
it’s automation of reminder; when doing things once a year, it’s very easy to forget
-
Guus
mathieui: you really don't need to wait a year to apply for a renewal. I think I've renewed my stuff about three times, last year
-
Guus
(pushing the expiry date by a couple of months every time)
-
Ge0rG
Guus: just because you can directly commit to the repo, everybody else needs to make a PR
-
Guus
the PR can be made in github (which is exactly what I do)
-
Guus
PRs get accepted within a couple of hours, typically
-
Ge0rG
Guus: by yourself? ;)
-
Ge0rG
I'm just saying that it would be impolite for any non-editor to make updates far more often than strictly necessary.
-
Guus
two / three times a year is hardly 'far more'
-
Guus
I'm not saying that individual authors should have some kind of reminder - but please lets not facilitate that - it defeats the purpose of our expiry mechanism - that's all I'm saying.
-
mathieui
Ge0rG, this is only a one-line change with an explicit title, so it’s essentially a two-three clicks effort for editors
-
mathieui
I guess I’ll just put that in the topic of the poezio room
-
Guus
fwiw: the readme provides links that allow you to directly edit the files: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/tree/master/data
-
Ge0rG
There are only nine warnings in clients.json. Apparently nobody cares about the `platform` field.
-
Ge0rG
WARN: entry 'GreenJab': undefined platforms: 'IBM i' (the allowed platforms are listed in platforms.json. If you think a platform is missing add it and mention it in your Pull Request)
-
Ge0rG
WTH is IBM i?
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: time to swing the Hammer of Enforcement!
-
Ge0rG
Guus: thanks very much :)
-
Ge0rG
So, what's with all those clients running on undefined platforms?
-
Guus
what do you mean?
-
Guus
https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html <-- looks okay?
-
Guus
I'm guestimating that we kept the old list intact, including the no-longer-supported-platforms, only to enfore platforms when the entry is actually renewed?
-
Ge0rG
Guus: oh, thanks for the explanation.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: interested in a s/unsupported/"other"/ PR?
-
Guus
well, if the entries with unsupported stuff have not been renewed and therefore are not being displayed anyway, I don't really see the point - but let me not stop you putting in effort to improve things :)
-
rion
Guus: is the list on the page autogenerated?
-
Ge0rG
rion: yes it is
-
Ge0rG
it'll probably take some minutes
-
Guus
yeah, it takes some time
-
Guus
psi is on there now though
-
Ge0rG
rion: what's the difference between Psi and Psi+?
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, don’t bother with replacing unsupported platforms with "other". we’ll deal with it when they’re renewed, I think that’s most sane.
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, admit it, you spoofed the timestamps of your renewal!
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: I wanted to see if anyone notices.
-
jonasw
ha
-
jonasw
I do
-
jonasw
(but I only did because you lured me into the diff with the trademark remark)
-
rion
Ge0rG: Psi+ includes some experimental patches not yet merged to Psi.
-
Guus
I happily accept anything that passes the parser (which does have a check for forward-dated renewals)
-
Guus
also, I happily accept stuff from people I deem trustworthy.
- Guus eyes Ge0rG
-
jonasw
not sure if that is a good glance or not
-
zinid
rion, when psi will support carbons, mam, SM and so on?
-
Ge0rG
rion: which one would you recommend to normal users?
-
zinid
you should really hate users to recommend them Psi :P
-
rion
zinid: carbons and SM are supported. mam is in progress.
-
rion
Ge0rG: stable one.
-
zinid
rion, supported in which version?
-
rion
zinid: one on https://psi-im.org
-
Ge0rG
rion: maybe you shouldn't be advertising psi+ then? ;)
-
rion
Ge0rG: It depends on users. Some of them like new features.
-
jonasw
rion, the question is, is Psi+ stable?
-
rion
Less then Psi. But mostly yes. We don't make releases for it. So it's possible to have something broken with each next build.
-
jonasw
rion, I’d argue don’t advertise this on the client list then
-
Ge0rG
I agree with jonasw - if you don't have releases, you shouldn't be advertising it to normal users.
-
SouL
rion, I'm suprised you saying that about Psi+
-
SouL
I've been using it for... I cannot remember
-
SouL
And I would not say is not stable or anything
-
SouL
I'm really surprised. And features don't come to Psi quickly in any way.
-
SouL
Or have that changed?
-
rion
for example if you enable multi-row tabs you can have rare crashes and kind of bad rendering on hidpi.
-
rion
I use Psi+ all the time. It's works pretty stable for me. But usually I don't use the features introduced by those patches.
-
rion
SouL: My goal after all to merge these projects into one. And I already merged quite a big chunk of patches. Psi+ keeps only those I considered bad-designed, useless or unstable. I'll refine and merge them all with time or may be some of them will be converted to plugins.
-
Kev
One of the XSF's earliest GSoC projects :)
-
Kev
(Although I doubt there's much relationship between the current code and the original)
-
SouL
rion, that sounds great! I understand now then :(
-
SouL
:)*
-
rion
or may be I'll join Swift team instead )))
-
SouL
Ha :D
-
Kev
I hear that's a thing Psi devs sometimes do.
-
Ge0rG
Is remuneration involved in that process?
-
rion
rarely
-
Guus
> (12:03) test: is xmpp providing gradle ?
-
jonasw
what
-
Guus
that's form our support muc just now
-
Ge0rG
I've lost motivation to report issues in Swift rather fast, because all my tickets were closed immediately with either "moved to private tracker" or WONTFIX.
-
Ge0rG
Guus: the right answer is: "no, because gradle is not based on XML. But we offer ant"
-
Guus
maven?
-
Ge0rG
Can do.
-
zinid
rion, didn't work for me
-
Ge0rG
zinid: you were a Psi developer?
-
zinid
Ge0rG, no
-
zinid
I tried last version and it didn't have any carbons or sm support
-
Ge0rG
You don't need Carbons on a desktop client. Just configure it to priority 127 and beg that nobody does resource locking.
-
zinid
lol
-
zinid
typical jabber
-
rion
zinid: no idea. I believe this code wasn't changed since the release. and both features work good for me.
-
rion
I'll check later
-
Ge0rG
I only remember that this time last year, Psi didn't have support for Carbons.
-
Ge0rG
so CVE-2017-5593 only affected Psi+
-
zinid
rion, just checked 1.3, seems like SM and Carbons are working indeed, thanks
-
zinid
still MAM is lacking...
-
zinid
and modern UI would be much appreciated
-
zinid
wow, captcha support
-
zinid
I'm impressed
-
SouL
:)
-
zinid
rion, Psi doesn't close a stream correctly, which leads to stalled resumed session ;)
-
zinid
it must send </stream:stream>
-
rion
Yes. I know. I remember this bug and in fact Psi has code sending stream close. I had no spare time to debug yet.
-
zinid
I see
-
zinid
the main problem of jabber is that development is done in spare time only ;)
-
MattJ
+1
-
jonasw
and when it isn’t, it actually flies, kinda. see c.im
-
rion
zinid: do you have a vacancy in ProcessOne? =)
-
zinid
rion, no :) We already fired a half of staff
-
mimi89999
Why?
-
rion
Now they will keep working in working on xmpp in their spare time...
-
zinid
mimi89999, because the number of customers has decreased drastically in recent years since XMPP is degrading
-
zinid
so we don't need an army of developers anymore
-
mimi89999
🙁
-
mimi89999
But why people don't like XMPP? I guess FB hidden marketing and network effect is really strong...
-
Holger
It's neither HTTP nor JSON.
-
zinid
mimi89999: because it has a reputation of outdated protocol
-
MattJ
I think it would be a mistake to pin a company's success on a protocol's reputation
-
zinid
One may argue, but the problem is that reputation is not a technical term, you cannot improve it by creating a better protocol
-
MattJ
SMTP isn't exactly cool nowadays either, but it still does the job it was designed to and many successful companies are based around it still
-
zinid
MattJ: sure, but protocol degradation is a part of this for sure, I know that because you cannot attract new customer because they don't want xmpp
-
zinid
So we actually stopped mentioning xmpp at all
-
Holger
MattJ: SMTP is a special case because it was so ubiquitous, no? I bet business around it is declining as well, just from a very high level.
-
mimi89999
Point them to good articles about XMPP.
-
mimi89999
Like that Json API on HTTP is better (not).
-
MattJ
Holger, as far as standard IM protocols go, I'd say XMPP is fairly ubiquitous
-
zinid
MattJ: not in the sense of user base
-
MattJ
Combine WhatsApp with Google and (once...) Facebook and that's a fairly large user base
-
MattJ
What failed is that none of these federate(d) in the way they were essentially forced to with SMTP
-
zinid
It's hard to call whatsapp's protocol an xmpp 😁
-
MattJ
It's derived from it, at least, and I think that counts enough for the purposes of this discussion
-
zinid
It used to be so (because based on ejabberd), but not anymore
-
Holger
MattJ: Well the discussion was about the business perspective, where I think WhatsApp & friends are irrelevant. If you build your business around SMTP, you can still reach many users; with XMPP, you reach nobody.
-
Holger
I'm not into p1's business but I would assume the typical customer isn't doing s2s at all.
-
MattJ
Most business uses of XMPP are not interested in federation
-
zinid
Holger: there was only a single customer with s2s: Nokia 😁
-
MattJ
so, if you wanted to replicate the success of WhatsApp, why would not not start with XMPP, as they did?
-
Holger
MattJ: Right. So the alternative is XMPP vs. random other chat solutions and the open aspect is irrelevant except in that it leads to library/infrastructure code being available.
-
MattJ
I don't think anyone expects to take any off-the-shelf tech and scale it as far as WhatsApp have done without customisation
-
zinid
MattJ: many do: every our customer wants to become WhatsApp 😁
-
rion
Let's rename XMPP to WhatsApp2 protocol
-
MattJ
Well WhatsApp's success wasn't due to federation, or its protocol - these things are irrelevant to users
-
zinid
MattJ: then there is no point in using xmpp? Because it's irrelevant
-
MattJ
There's similarly no point in *not* using it
-
Holger
HTTP!
-
Holger
JSON!
-
jonasw
what Holger says
-
MattJ
Which is the point I'm trying to make - if you're solving a problem for your customers, why do they care about the protocol?
-
jonasw
MattJ, because HTTP passes through all firewalls, XMPP won’t.
-
MattJ
and like many other problems, XMPP already solved that
-
jonasw
did it?
-
MattJ
(in many ways, as usual)
-
MattJ
BOSH?
-
jonasw
by bother with BOSH+XMPP when you could use HTTP+json on your own?
-
MattJ
BOSH works perfectly through firewalls
-
jonasw
(in addition to BOSH being ugly and you’d want to use websockets nowadays)
-
MattJ
Well, we can do that too
-
Holger
There's JavaScript frameworks everywhere to throw JSON at a web service.
-
MattJ
I still don't think BOSH is ugly compared to websockets though :)
-
Holger
A new framework every other day!
-
Kev
Is that true? That you'd automatically want WSS instead of BOSH?
-
Holger
And all your devs have done this stuff several times.
-
jonasw
Kev, tbh, I don’t know a lot about web
-
Holger
None of them ever touched that XMP-what?! thing.
-
jonasw
but the concept of BOSH always irritated me
-
jonasw
Holger, and all the darn myths about XML aren’t helping
-
Holger
Right.
-
jonasw
(even though it is amusing to see how the JSON folks reinvent the XML data model)
-
Holger
Absolutely.
-
zinid
MattJ: bosh is much more complicated for sure and infact replicates SM behaviour
-
Kev
295 is funny because it's true :p
-
jonasw
Kev, oh yes
-
MattJ
zinid, sure - I've written multiple BOSH implementations, client and server-side
-
Holger
MattJ: I'm not saying the typical business decision against XMPP is purely rational. Though I'm not sure it's purely irrational. But either way it doesn't help to just ignore those business reasonings.
-
zinid
MattJ: same here and I hate it
-
zinid
I actually don't understand why wss+sm is not enough
-
jonasw
zinid, because ws is rather new-ish and people haven’t gotten around to implement it yet?
-
jonasw
(spare time developers)
-
Holger
I think jcbrand mentioned that Converse.js supports both but he prefers BOSH. He didn't really explain the reasons though, IIRC.
-
zinid
jonasw: newish? The RFC was accepted in October 2014, it will be 4 years soon
-
jonasw
zinid, yes.
-
jonasw
that’s newish in spare time developer terms
-
zinid
Ok
-
jonasw
or maybe it’s just me because I don’t follow web technologies a lot
-
zinid
But can we start recommending it instead of bosh?
-
zinid
Clearly we have several specs with the same functionality again
-
MattJ
The working group that created websockets looked at BOSH and considered it, or something very like it, to be the foundation of websockets
-
zinid
And "IE9 doesn't support WS" is not terribly convincing 😁
-
MattJ
I think ultimately BOSH is something you can already do in JS yourself, a binary-safe guaranteed persistent connection is not
-
zinid
I didn't get that, but whatever
-
Holger
Seems XEP section anchors such as this one aren't stable? -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm139605353378912
-
MattJ
I've always assumed they are not
-
MattJ
I don't know where they come from though
-
Holger
Sigh.
-
jonasw
Holger, normally, the anchor is set in the code
-
Holger
I referenced that section (in an ejabberd issue) yesterday and it seems the anchor has changed since then.
-
jonasw
it’s not been set there :(
-
jonasw
we can now either set the current id as persistent, the old id as persistent or an arbitrary new identifier.
-
jonasw
pick one
-
Holger
Sometimes there's human-readable identifiers, right? They're much nicer of course.
-
Ge0rG
+1 for human-readable identifiers :>
-
jonasw
Holger, yeah. as mentioned, those are set in the XEP XML
-
jonasw
when they’re not set, they’re generated "randomly" apparently
-
jonasw
so I can now either set a human-readable one or one of the random IDs
-
zinid
Humans in XMPP detected
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: set a human readable one
-
Ge0rG
Then make a linter script to check all XEPs. Then crowdsource slugification
-
jonasw
I wish I had time to finish xeplint
-
jonasw
Holger, fix pushed, will be live in ~1.5h
-
jonasw
new anchor is #business-storeret-user-archives
-
Holger
jonasw: Thank you!
-
Ge0rG
Should a MUC-PM notification follow the rules for message notifications, for MUC notifications or have a dedicated notification preference?
-
Ge0rG
...regarding the notification sound
-
SouL
I would use the same as 1to1 chat
-
moparisthebest
I'd say from a user perspective they are the same, both messages I want to see
-
moparisthebest
unless I silenced notifications for that muc/user
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: "they" = what?
-
moparisthebest
"they" = muc-pm / regular message
-
Ge0rG
so different from MUCs.
-
moparisthebest
yea mucs too
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: please re-read my question.
-
SouL
Ge0rG, I would follow the rules for message notifications.
-
moparisthebest
^
-
Ge0rG
SouL: thanks, I got your answer.
-
rion
I also think MUC-PM and regular contacts should produce the same notification
-
Ge0rG
MUCs are different if only they also have a "only notify on mention" setting
-
Ge0rG
Ah, it seems like MUC-PMs are already handled in the same way.
-
Ge0rG
So you don't see a need for their own category? Great.
-
rion
special notifications could be set to special contacts ❤️ =)
-
Ge0rG
I'm planning to have a per-contact-group ringtone, but what do you do if a contact is in multiple groups?
-
Ge0rG
alphabetically first group wins?
-
rion
play all at once :-D
-
Ge0rG
rion: you are evil :P
-
SouL
jonasw, what is (or was) c.im?
-
moparisthebest
usually people abbreviate conversations.im that way
-
SouL
moparisthebest, ah ok then
-
Ge0rG
c.im is the new jcd.
-
Guus
what is the old jcd?
-
Ge0rG
jabber.ccc.de
-
Guus
ah :)
-
Holger
c.im is available for sale!
-
Holger
I bet it's cheap.
-
MattJ
For $$$$, I guess
-
edhelas
I was able the get back mov.im last year <3
-
Ge0rG
Sorry, c.im has already been registered.
-
SouL
edhelas: congrats! :)
-
SouL
The one I want is only $2600
-
Ge0rG
so.ul?
-
moparisthebest
I was eyeing moparisthe.best but not worth it nowadays
-
Ge0rG
I have two domains with my lastname on dubious TLDs.
-
Ge0rG
People are always surprised when I tell them on the phone
-
jonasw
.xxx?
-
Ge0rG
Not even close
-
SouL
Gr.org
-
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, I have the same, tell people on the phone my first name @ my last name dot org
-
SouL
Ge.org
-
moparisthebest
then they go 'at gmail?' and I go 'no'
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, :<
-
jonasw
I know that feel
-
jonasw
but I think it’s because many people are stupid and confuse . with @ when spelling their mail address
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: and .org is pretty well-known
-
moparisthebest
I actually get odder looks/questions now that I switched to mostly giving like, if the company is BobWorks I'd give first.bobworks@last.org
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: that's crazy talk!
-
moparisthebest
I like it because while a human could figure it out and strip off the part after the .
-
Ge0rG
first.bobworks@last! yay!
-
moparisthebest
a computer program totally couldn't because it's a perfectly valid email, and they don't know that's my policy like they know + is strippable from gmail
-
jonasw
reminds me of the "io" tld which had A records for a while
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: do you think they actively strip +postfix from gmail addresses?
-
moparisthebest
I assume spammers do, why wouldn't they?
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: dunno
-
moparisthebest
or sleazy companies that would sell an email address
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: maybe because they are careless sleazy bastards?
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moparisthebest
if only I could get a saner way to handle such aliases in xmpp
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moparisthebest
but it looks like far too much work to be worth it
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Ge0rG
Yeah, XMPP sucks.
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jonasw
go matrix?
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Ge0rG
OTOH, this feature prevents domain / user impersonation.
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moparisthebest
this module is 'good enough' in that it fixes discovery https://modules.prosody.im/mod_alias.html
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moparisthebest
but doesn't avoid the 'giving randoms your jid' problem
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SouL
XMPP alias please!
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SouL
When are we starting with the XEP?
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Ge0rG
I'm sure there are two or three already.
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moparisthebest
it's perfectly doable with just changes on *your* server
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moparisthebest
it's just super annoying, like if a@a.com sends a message to both b.alias1@b.com and b.alias2@b.com, and b responds, which jid do you send it from
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moparisthebest
and it involves a lot of jid rewriting, databases and such
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Ge0rG
b.alias1+alias2@b.com
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moparisthebest
I guess maybe if you added client support too that would make it easier, but meh
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: I would assume that you use proxy JIDs for different aliases on your side, so it would be something like a%a.com@b.alias1.b.com
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moparisthebest
the advantage of support just on *your* server is you don't need a XEP because there is no interop to document :)
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moparisthebest
Ge0rG, in my case I'd want it to match all my email aliases, which are a defined list of specific ones, plus me(\.|+|-)[^@]*@all-the-domains
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: your server could just track the alias the other user contacted first.
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: and auto-route accordingly
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moparisthebest
yep that's an option, probably the best one, still not perfect
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Ge0rG
probably good enough.
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jonasw
reminds me of resource locking
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jonasw
sounds like a can of worms
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moparisthebest
it's totally a can of worms
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zinid
🐛
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moparisthebest
hence "This type of aliasing is well supported in the email world, but very hard to handle with XMPP, this module sidesteps all the hard problems by just sending the user a helpful message, requiring humans to decide what they actually want to do."
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SaltyBones
oh, it's basically a standardized auto-reply
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SaltyBones
or jid squatting ;)
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Ge0rG
Wow.
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Ge0rG
Impressive.
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Ge0rG
We need more JID mobility.
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Zash
Do we, really?
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Ge0rG
Zash: I'd like to have an easy and fully automated way to move all my contacts from my old JID to my new JID
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moparisthebest
I just have a number of emails, 2 main ones, and I like all my emails also being JIDs, isn't that the ideal situation?
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Ge0rG
kind of moved, but automatic
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Zash
Ge0rG: How often do you move JIDs?
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Ge0rG
Zash: whenever the 6-month free period on c.im expires
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jonasw
lol
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Zash
This ties back into the question of what identity is.
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SouL
Ge0rG: haha
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Zash
Ge0rG: Why can't we automate moved again?
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Ge0rG
Zash: because SECURITY11!!1!! > In order to prevent other users from maliciously altering contacts the client SHOULD NOT automatically subscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives an unsubscribe and SHOULD NOT automatically unsubscribe to a <moved/> JID when it receives a subscribe.
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Ge0rG
Then followed by some constructed attack vector where some JIDs are auto-approved and others are not.
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jonasw
xep#?
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Ge0rG
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html#security
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Zash
-xep moved
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Bunneh
Zash: Moved (Standards Track, Deferred, 2010-06-16) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html
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SaltyBones
Ge0rG, if we add a crypto identity we can base moving on that. (Sounds crazy but I am not kidding.)
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jonasw
Ge0rG, that seems solvable, trivially
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Ge0rG
SaltyBones: I've thought about that.
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Ge0rG
SaltyBones: that would make the public key your effective identity, and the JID just a helper string.
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Zash
Which isn't really the design of XMPP
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SaltyBones
Considering how much we are thinking about those things I think we should start writing things down...
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jonasw
oldjid unsubscribes with <moved token='xyz' new='…'/>, newjid subscribes with <moved token='xyz' old='…'/> and only then a potential reverse-subscription is re-enacted by the target
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Ge0rG
jonasw: feel free to pick up authorship of 283, bringing it up to pace and convincing clients to implement.
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jonasw
Ge0rG, would that work? ^
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Ge0rG
clients or servers.
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jonasw
would have to figure something out for one-way (stable jid to moving jid) subscriptions
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Ge0rG
jonasw: no need for a token. you can prove ownership of both JIDs by just issuing the according <moved> stanzas.
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jonasw
right
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jonasw
that’s what happens already though
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Ge0rG
jonasw: I've written down all that, before I knew of Moved, into the wiki
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Ge0rG
but then it got lost
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Ge0rG
SaltyBones: yes, let's reinvent XMPP as something else.
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jonasw
so yeah, it’s really only about some weird one-way casse
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Ge0rG
maybe an "OMEMO distribution protocol".
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jonasw
I don’t think we should care about that too much
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Ge0rG
jonasw: the hard part is figuring out the right order of events to make it work automatically. That and server-side caching of subscribe/unsubscribe presence packets.
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Ge0rG
Don't remember the exact rules
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Ge0rG
BTW, when is PARS bound to expire?
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jonasw
defer, you mean?
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jonasw
xep#?
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jonasw
!xep 379
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SaltyBones
Ge0rG, is this about the crypto IDs?
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jonasw
Ge0rG, february 16th
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Ge0rG
SaltyBones: I'm not sure.
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Ge0rG
jonasw: wow, need to add some more meat to it until then.
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jonasw
I need to get some ecaps2 implmenetation in some server
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Holger
Seems https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ has the current XEP-0363 revision (0.4.0) but not the two 0.3.x revisions.
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zinid
Holger, this is not the only such XEP, I recall I couldn't find old versions of MAM or something
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Holger
:-/
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jonasw
Holger, yes
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jonasw
attic is a manual process
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jonasw
it sucks
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jonasw
editors have to remember to copy them over
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jonasw
I don’t remember that always
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Zash
:/
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Holger
Nice.
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moparisthebest
is there a reason to have it with version control?
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moparisthebest
can't a xep just be looked at at any revision?
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jonasw
I already automated the copying-over of the changed versions, and if we ever get this scripting server-side, it should magically worked
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jonasw
moparisthebest, yes, but you’d have to know which revision is a specific version
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jonasw
if we knew that, we could generate the attic auotomatically
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moparisthebest
tags?
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jonasw
we don’t have those
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moparisthebest
(since they can be added later)
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jonasw
moparisthebest, if you did those, that’d be amazing
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moparisthebest
something like xep-0368-0.0.1 or something
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jonasw
yeah
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jonasw
but it’s tedious to do
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Zash
for each revision, check the last version in the source, something something
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moparisthebest
would be kind of hard to back fill, could be easy going forward
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zinid
tags sound like a sane idea
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Zash
should be doable with way more scripting hackery than I have the energy for now
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jonasw
Zash, not sufficient; sometimes version blocks are added before the last editorial change
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Zash
jonasw: would it be good enough?
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moparisthebest
oh hey, what about just checking out each version and matching sha1sum to a current attic xml for backfil?
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jonasw
Zash, probably
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jonasw
moparisthebest, except that attic doesn’t always have XMLs
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moparisthebest
that would get you exactly what is in attic now, then you could tweak later
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jonasw
gotta go
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moparisthebest
oh, well does it *mostly* have them?
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Zash
moparisthebest: maybe, assuming they haven't been changed in any way (think character encoding or newlines) since
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moparisthebest
I would assume they were copied from version control and not touched
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moparisthebest
could be a wrong assumption
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Zash
but the HTML is not under version control
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Zash
those are build artefacts, copied after build
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moparisthebest
yea I think it'd only work if there was xml there
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Zash
might depend on the version of xsltproc and whatnot
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moparisthebest
looks like we need editors to ping stpeter about pinging Joe Salowey again about adding xep-368 alpn IDs here https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-extensiontype-values/tls-extensiontype-values.xhtml#alpn-protocol-ids
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moparisthebest
since last time when he said he'd add them, looks like 'CoAP' whatever that is has been added
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moparisthebest
but still no xmpp love :'(
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Zash
Why don't you do it?
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moparisthebest
it's officially an editor task
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Zash
join the editor team, send an email, retire to a life of luxury
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moparisthebest
well editor team tried to ping joe salowey twice without luck, and stpeter had to take over :)
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moparisthebest
I'll probably wait until stpeter joins back and ping him again hehe
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moparisthebest
https://trello.com/c/8arSL8aD/2-vote-on-moving-xep-0368-to-draft that's the card looks like