moparisthebest, FYI, CoAP is a UDP binary HTTP-ish thing; can be used over DTLS (TLS for UDP). used for IoT stuff.
Ge0rG
Acronym galore!
zinid
let's reject XEP-0368 for the drama!
Ge0rG
zinid: we've had enough drama for this year already.
zinid
Ge0rG, okay
Ge0rG
😅
moparisthebest
what drama? it's mainly trying to get IANA to do IANA stuff
zinid
IANA is too busy to add records for that marginal protocol XMP-wtf
moparisthebest
I'd think XMPP is more widely used than CoAP or managesieve
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zinid
> The primary reason for introducing CoAP over TCP [RFC0793] and TLS
[RFC5246] is that some networks do not forward UDP packets. Complete
blocking of UDP happens in between about 2% and 4% of terrestrial
access networks, according to [EK2016].
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Ge0rG
UDP isn't used by any serious protocol anyway.
zinid
serious = HTTP or JSON based
jonasw
zinid, lol
jonasw
they do coap over tcp now
jonasw
that’s funny
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Flow
Ge0rG, QUIC?
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Ge0rG
Flow: accelerate the Internet!
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jonasw
when did council switch?
jonasw
was it before 2017-11-28 or after?
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jonasw
AFAICT first session of new council was 2017-11-29, is that correct?
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derdaniel
Hi. Could someone kill the s2s between gultsch.de and muc.xmpp.org? It's stuck again. (I think it happens when I switch certs?) thanks
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jonasw
cc @ intosi maybe?
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intosi
I'll take a look.
derdaniel
And like I said the last four times this happened. It's not urgent and you can leave it stuck if that helps you debug the issue and I will do everything in my power to help
jonasw
MattJ, maybe?
Kev
I'm trying to get the informational protoxep covering 'xmpp 2' stuff out before the summit, but it's getting tight, BTW.
jonasw
or Zash
Kev
Writing on the train at the moment.
Ge0rG
Will xmpp2 fix the s2s stuck issue?
jonasw
Kev, I’ll be happy to do some editing if that helps
jonasw
(i.e. do some more proof-reading than usual ;-))
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Kev
Ge0rG: Possibly not :)
Kev
jonasw: Ta. I think if I get anything out, it'll be useful.
Kev
Although Georg's slide stack is fairly thorough, I'd like us to have something in (proto)XEP form.
intosi
derdaniel: try again, please :)
Ge0rG
Kev: I still don't understand your reasons for that, but I'm not going to stop you
intosi
s2s:close("muc.xmpp.org", "gultsch.de");
| Closed outgoing session from muc.xmpp.org to gultsch.de
| OK: Closed 1 s2s session
| Result: nil
s2s:close("gultsch.de", "muc.xmpp.org")
| Closed 1 incoming session from gultsch.de to muc.xmpp.org
| OK: Closed 1 s2s session
Kev
Ge0rG: I'm trying to produce suggested ways of addressing things too :)
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daniel
intosi: 👍
Kev
Plus, I think doing things in the context of a XEP helps (it means the IP picture is clear, etc.).
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Ge0rG
Kev: so you are not documenting what's broken but writing proto-protocol to fix it? That's great :)
jonasw
lovely :)
Kev
I'm not trying to just duplicate the slides in XEP form, no.
Ge0rG
Kev: now I'm really interested in what you propose
Kev
Nothing revolutionary.
jonasw
FWIW, even though I’m not going to be at summit, I’ll still be online to do editor tasks if needed.
Ge0rG
I hope the WebEx doesn't fail
Kev
jonasw: Thanks.
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Kev
Ge0rG: And me, I want you to give this presentation.
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Kev
Although, if it does fail, do you mind if I give a poor-man's approximation of your presentation?
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Kev
(Well, I'll do that anyway, it's a question of whether I could steal your slides)
Ge0rG
Kev: not at all. I hope that the points are sufficiently self-describing for you to present
Kev
Even for an idiot like me :)
jonasw
power-point karaoke
jonasw
ha
Ge0rGattempts to imagine an idiot like Kev and fails.
Kev
jonasw: Musical chairs with power-point. When the music stops, whoever is still standing has to present the next slide.
jonasw
ha
Kev
I'm saying that now, and I've an awful feeling it's probably something someone has already done, somewhere, somewhen.
jonasw
power-point karaoke is actually a thing. you get a random slidedeck and need to make sense of it, for the amusement of the audience
Ge0rG
I remember a ppt karaoke session with Dan Kaminsky at some CCC congress, a decade ago. It was just hilarious.
jonasw
if you’re lucky, you get a really obscure slidedeck about brainfuck and happen to know something about brainfuck, but if you’re unlucky, it is about porous stones and you’re like what
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daniel
Ge0rG: was a called a power point karaoke or was it one of his actual talks?
Ge0rG
Kev: if you need any deeper content in anticipation of evil audience questions on that slide deck, feel free to let me know.
Ge0rG
daniel: it was an official powerpoint karaoke session, and Dan was "volunteered"
Kev
Ta. I did send a sub request to you, but you ignored it ;)
Ge0rG
Kev: I'm sorry, it's well possible that it got lost amidst dozens of spammer JIDs awaiting my approval.
Guus
brilliant, as soon as I press send, I spot a glaring typo.
Ge0rG
Kev: you should have used PARS
Ge0rG
Kev: but feel free to re-request now.
Kev
It was only a half hour or so ago.
Kev
I'll do so now.
SamWhited
power-point karaoke actually sounds really fun; after a few beers I imagine that would be hilarious.
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jonasw
SamWhited, it is
jonasw
even without beers :)
Kev
Oh, wait, maybe this is my fault and yax.im isn't whitelisted on isode.com
Ge0rG
Kev: I do have a mutual subscription with a JID that matches yours on the XSF application.
Kev
Yeah, I'm only using my work account while I'm travelling.
Ge0rG
Kev: and you are playing Unknown title - Unknown artist.
Guus
As time is running out (apologies for the delay), I'm cross-posting this invitation for _you_ to attend the XSF Dinner 2018 in a couple of places. Please help me spread the word! If you're interested in joining us, please RSVP by fill out a short form at https://goo.gl/forms/vgzWXyiRo5ne43yX2 but do so today!
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Ge0rG
> and yax.im isn't whitelisted on isode.com
Because federation isn't a thing.
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Kev
Dame Blanche doesn't have a translation this year :(
Kev
Ge0rG: It was a sledgehammer approach to stopping spam. It's effective in that respect, but has unfortunate sideeffects.
Ge0rG
Kev: there should be a way to auto-whitelist JIDs on outgoing traffic to them.
Kev
That sounds sensible.
jonasw
reverse-XEP-0191
Guus
(As was pointed out elsewhere, the form didn't include the dinner date/time originally - it now does: it's Tomorrow, at 8.)
Ge0rG
What time will Summit start?
jonasw
10 IIRC
Guus
We'll start at 10.
jonasw
tz?
jonasw
CET?
Guus
local time, so yeah, CET.
jonasw
so 09:00Z
Ge0rG
That sounds like I can make it in time, and even have some coffee first.
Guus
Excellent
daniel
Guus: do we get a copy of the form send to us?
jonasw
is there a plan when lunch break will be?
daniel
Or do I need to take a picture of the screen?
jonasw
maybe I can sync my lunch break :)
Guus
Daniel, you should get a copy by mail (but if you can confirm that for me, that'd be great)
Guus
jonasw: we will have lunch at the venue itself, but haven't explicitly defined a time for that. When most people grow hungry, I suppose.
Kev
Guus: i got a confirmation mail.
SamWhited
Guus: I got it on members@ and summit@
jonasw
Guus, okay
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Kev
Ge0rG: "Need for ephemeral all-online-clients routing (Bare-JID + <no-archive/>?)" I'm not sure about this. I think that if it went to all clients, it should go in the archive. Else you have issues with resync due to momentary disconnects.
Ge0rG
Kev: I could imagine that as useful for (some?) CSNs
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Kev
Possibly. But then you fall into the trap of inconsistent views, don't you?
jonasw
Kev, for "typing" and "stopped typing" it doesn’t matter (a lot), and that just pollutes the archive
jonasw
active and inactive makes sense to keep
Kev
I have a somewhat contentious suggestion here, but I don't know if I'm brave enough to make it.
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Guus
Thanks Kev. Sam, you surely didn't get the confirmation mail on the mailinglist?!
Ge0rG
Kev: be brave!
Ge0rG
While we are at presence spam...
> iqvxh3d3s@xmpp.tips wants to subscribe to your presence, ...
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Kev
Seems legit.
jonasw
Kev, be brave!
Kev
"Special server handling"
jonasw
Guus, "RSVP before 7PM UTC (5PM Brussels time)" I’m pretty sure this is incorrect
jonasw
but that might be the glaring typo you spoke about
Kev
I'm thinking more of deliver/read receipts here than CSN, in the first instance.
jonasw
that’d be either 4PM UTC or 8PM brussels time
Kev
But what if you get your server to handle the message metadata, instead of clients doing the collation?
jonasw
Kev, that’d be great
Guus
jonasw: the glaring typo was in the subject, but you're right, that's also a mistake.
Guus
that's what I get for rushing things at the last moment. Again, apologies.
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Ge0rG
Kev: +1 to that
jonasw
Kev, that’d be great, but maybe quite a large step for now?
Kev
Well, 'for now' is kinda nebulous here.
Ge0rG
Kev: ask daniel about sending delivery receipts on MAM catch-up
Kev
Client collation of historical delivery receipts is painful at best. Even ignoring the traffic impact.
Kev
I've just had another evil and contentious thought.
Kev
CSN aren't messages, they're presence.
Ge0rG
Kev: except when they are used as read markers
jonasw
Ge0rG, are you confusing CSN and Chat Markers?
jonasw
CSN can’t be used as read markers AFAIK
daniel
Guus: yes got the confirmation.
daniel
Ge0rG: did I mention I'm doing this now. Even though the XEPs forbids this. I'm such a bad person
Ge0rG
daniel: you are doing what now?
daniel
Sending 184 on mam catchup
daniel
Only if there isn't one in mam already of course
Ge0rG
daniel: I think we talked about it some days ago. Or maybe it was jonasw telling me how your logic works?
jonasw
I’m pretty sure that the XEP doesn’t intend to forbid that
Ge0rG
jonasw: CSN can be used as an activity marker.
jonasw
Ge0rG, but that’s not read
Ge0rG
Kev: if we redefine CSN in terms of presence, we _might_ get rid of ephemeral-message-to-all-devices.
jonasw
hmm
jonasw
presence’ getting large
Ge0rG
don't forget to inject avatars and caps²
Zash
Transport csn in directed presence ?
jonasw
Kev, but then we’re getting in directed-presence semantics when you send CSN to specific contacts, don’t we?
Zash
That somehow makes sense
jonasw
I’d be worried about that
jonasw
I mean, yes, it makes sense
jonasw
but we’d have to look closely at the sematics involved in sending directed presence to people
Ge0rG
jonasw: what's wrong with directed presence?
jonasw
Ge0rG, I’m not 100% sure, but that would break broadcast of global presence changes, wouldn’t it?
Kev
As far as I can see, CSN in directed presence would work, and makes lots of things better.
Kev
So, my current strawman is that we move CSN to directed presence, we have the server handle receipts as special data, and that way we avoid (I think) ephemeral bare-JID messages.
jonasw
Ge0rG, if I send you directed presence with CSN, would my subsequent global presence change to away (a) not be broadcasted to you or (b) break the CSN I sent you before?
jonasw
Kev, I love it
jonasw
if it actually works :)
Ge0rG
Kev: we might be able to come up with other use-cases for ephemeral bare-JID messages, if we think about it hard enough.
Kev
Maybe. But it's not clear to me that we can't also solve them.
SaltyBones
Is there any good reading material on bare-JID messages somewhere? Because in my head all user generated messages should be bare-JID and all server generated messsages should be directed but I am probably missing a lot of use-cases.
Kev
What I'm trying to avoid is special-casing such that some messages don't hit the archive and some do.
jonasw
SaltyBones, file transfers are usually to full jid
Kev
SaltyBones: Georg's slide deck is online somewhere, I think. Ge0rG?
jonasw, maybe we don't need to discuss this here but: why?
Kev
Ta muchly.
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Ge0rG
Please reload, forgot to refresh the PDF export.
jonasw
SaltyBones, I don’t think it makes sense to broadcast a file to all clients by default.
jonasw
SaltyBones, think memory use, battery use etc. on mobiles
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SaltyBones
Ge0rG, 208-01-30.00 :)
SaltyBones
Is that the room it's in? :)
Ge0rG
SaltyBones: perfect
Ge0rG
Sorry, gotta go now.
Kev
jonasw: No, it doesn't make sense to broadcast it to any clients by default, but to hold it on the server until a client wants it :)
SaltyBones
jonasw, they don't have to accept it but how would the user chose which client to send it to? It's usually transparent to him what the contact is doing with his devices...
SaltyBones
Maybe opaque not transparent. :p
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jonasw
SaltyBones, offering is different from actually transferring the file
jonasw
once one client accepted the offer, you wouldn’t want to send your file to *all* clients
jonasw
you’d negotiate a transport with that client, and if the transport is in-band, you’d use messages to the full jid
jonasw
(to avoid other clients getting spammed with a transfer they didn’t accept)
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SaltyBones
Ah, I see. So the client sends directed even though the user only sent bare-JID.
jonasw
maybe
SaltyBones
Okay, I see maybe the distinction should be automatic
SaltyBones
vs interactive
jonasw
yes, users should of course never touch full JIDs
jonasw
if anything, they should touch a list of clients of the peer, with their disco identities
jonasw
but no full jIDs
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SaltyBones
Yeah, and even that I would strongly oppose. :)
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SamWhited
Guus: oh, sorry, I thought you were looking for confirmation that the survey went out
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Guus
SamWhited: 👍
ralphm
Everyone, please read Guus' e-mail and fill in the XSF Dinner form therein.
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Guus
Dinner update: I've just been in contact with the restaurant. If people would like to have a vegetarian dinner, that'll be possible. Some of the menu items are vegetarian (or will be slightly modified to be vegetarian). For a main course, there can be a pasta. If you're interested in a vegatarian option, please add that as a comment to the form (and tell the waiter tomorrow, when ordering)
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Kev
And there's always the option of A Tomato.
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Guus
to consume, or to throw?
intosi
Guus: there's a history there.
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Kev
This is not helpful rendering, but here's a very rough preview of my xmpp2 thoughts - https://www.dropbox.com/s/pkcbdwpxivg41gp/multi-client.html?dl=0
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Steve Kille
"not helpful" is quite an understatement
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Kev
I'm sure everyone can read HTML.
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Guus
Kev, you're getting awefully close to that guy from the Matrix. "All I see is blonde, red head"
Guus
(apart from the fact that that's the guy that ends up killing everyone, obviously)
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jonasw
spoilers!!k
jonasw
some day, I’ll set up a web service which renders github PRs against the xep repository...
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Guus
(fun fact, I initially spelled "red head" as "redhat")
Kev
All I see is Debian, Red Hat...
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SouL
This MUC gets better and better each day hah
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jonasw
SouL, until somebody complains about too much off-topic
jonasw
then we go back to xmpp@ ;-)
SouL
\o/
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Zash
jonasw: That happens to every group chat ever
jonasw
Zash, true
jonasw
except to off-topic groupchats
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moparisthebest
jonasw: can you un-archive https://trello.com/c/8arSL8aD/2-vote-on-moving-xep-0368-to-draft
moparisthebest
Still waiting on iana
moparisthebest
Hey that sounds like a good song title
jonasw
moparisthebest, done
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moparisthebest
Thanks
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Guus
Reminder: As time is running out (apologies for the delay), I'm cross-posting this invitation for _you_ to attend the XSF Dinner 2018 in a couple of places. Please help me spread the word! If you're interested in joining us, please RSVP by fill out a short form at https://goo.gl/forms/vgzWXyiRo5ne43yX2 but do so today!
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jonasw
Guus, maybe highlight all people in the participants list by their nickname here?
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Guus
I'll do that as a last resort :)
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jonasw
hmmm
jonasw
the earlier they know the better?
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Holger
Seems xmpp.net is "too busy" quite often?
intosi
Can happen.
jonasw
I still think there’s a bug with the queue manager there
intosi
But not being able to submit any domains is perhaps a bit rich :)
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intosi
jonasw: very likely.
jonasw
I didn’t get the debug logs I asked for a few weeks ago and I didn’t have time to persue it since then
intosi
Did you ask for debug logs?
Holger
Ok. I'll wait with shutting down check.messaging.one then.
jonasw
intosi, I asked for somebody to lend me a hand for gathering information, yeah
jonasw
weeks ago, probably last year
intosi
Where did you ask?
intosi
Should be running again, FWIW.
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jonasw
intosi, iteam@
jonasw
intosi, specifically MR 20171215T10:36:44Z 000 <jonasw> can somebody take a look at the logs, we seem to have a stuck queue again
jonasw
so yeah, several weeks, last year :)
jonasw
but then there were the holidays etc and I kinda lost track
Guus
is this that issue again where malformed characters cause the queue processing to stagnate?
Guus
that was a weird one
jonasw
maybe
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intosi
I might have a clue why that happens.
jonasw
that’d be great
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Ge0rG
Normally a client does disco#items on its service domain to find MUCs, File Upload and other nifty services. However, it is possible to have things like File Upload on the service domain. How is a client supposed to find out?
Zash
Disco info the domain first
Zash
To see if it even supports disco#items
Ge0rG
Zash: what if it doesn't support either?
Zash
And the account itself too
Zash
Disco#info all the things
Ge0rG
Roundtrips all the way
Zash
Ge0rG: what if?
Ge0rG
Zash: what if what.
Zash
What if whatif what
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Zash
Ge0rG: What if what don't support what ?
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Ge0rG
Zash: what if the service domain doesn't support disco#info
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Zash
Ge0rG: Then it's broken
Tobias
yeah
Ge0rG
Zash: so you want to tell me disco#info is mandatory and disco#items is optional?
Tobias
it's kind of a basic feature
Zash
And probably won't support disco#items either
Tobias
yup
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Zash
Ge0rG: Yes
Ge0rG
So I'm supposed to disco#info my service domain, then to disco#items it, then to disco#info each item.
Zash
At least I think so
Ge0rG
But if I disco#info my service domain, I'm not doing it in a code path where I'm collecting features, only checking for disco#items support
Zash
Ge0rG: Or do both kinds in parallel, and live with the possibility of an error
Ge0rG
Do I need to disco#items each of the items of my service domain's disco#items?
Ge0rG
It's disco#items all the way down!
Zash
I assume you want some limit
Ge0rG
Zash: do I?
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Tobias
Ge0rG, if you want to support that, it's what you have to do
Ge0rG
Tobias: I don't want to. Do I _have_ to?
Zash
Ge0rG: You don't have to do anything
Tobias
If you want to discover a File Upload component that hides some levels down
Tobias
you don't have to support that
Tobias
I'd probably not go further than 1 or 2 levels down and stop there
Ge0rG
My question is: is a client supposed to discover a File Upload on it's direct service domain?
Zash
Survey time?
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Zash
Ge0rG: Same as with proxy65
Ge0rG
Zash: can you un-redirect that answer, please?
Zash
Nothing about those require a separate domain
Ge0rG
Soooo....
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Zash
You as a client dev will want to support both setups
Zash
Both exist in the wild
Ge0rGassumes this is a pun on behalf of a server developer and admin deploying such a setup.
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Zash
I think I moved all the file transfer helpers to my main domain, yes
Ge0rG
Zash: you are not the person I was talking of.
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Zash
Well, still
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Ge0rG
"You received a message encrypted with OMEMO but your client doesnt support OMEMO." *sigh*
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Guus
monar, Hantu.sc, bg, Dwisnewski, Holger, MattJ (and Ethan), michalwski: if you want to join us at dinner tomorrow, please RSVP at https://goo.gl/forms/vgzWXyiRo5ne43yX2 - do so today please!
Guus
(as well as anyone else that feels like joining)
Ge0rG
I wish I could
intosi
Anyone who wants the vegetarian option: mention it in the notes at the bottom of the form.
zinid
Ge0rG, are you hungry?
Ge0rG
zinid: yes
Holger
I'm too stingy.
Holger
Ge0rG could borrow me his member pass.
Holger
I could pretend to be Ge0rG.
Ge0rG
Holger: are you attending?
zinid
Holger, just always say that we need XMPP2.0
Holger
Ge0rG: Yeah.
Holger
zinid: :-)
Zash
We are all Ge0rG on this blessed day
Ge0rG
Holger: I wouldn't mind you taking my position at the Dinner, if this is okay with the Org.
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Ge0rG
Zash: in that case you need to wear a black fedora hat and politely troll everyone.
SaltyBones
Ge0rG, you are not coming?
Ge0rG
SaltyBones: no
SaltyBones
That's a bit disappointing.
Zash
Ge0rG: Actual fedora ?
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Holger
Ge0rG: That's nice thanks, but I was just kidding. I'll meet jabber.at-Mati and we'll search for a French fries stand :-)
Holger
Belgium fries.
Ge0rG
Zash: it looks like the one worn by Indiana Jones, except it's black.
Ge0rG
I pretend to be a Black Hat.
Ge0rG
Holger: last time I attended Summit, another XSF member (I wasn't one at the time) invited me to the dinner but then couldn't come for personal reasons.
Guus
"he tricked me into coming and then left me on my own."
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Guus
For what it's worth: although I appreciate the guesture - and would like to have Holger there - I'd try to avoid allowing people to trade places with non-members. That'll start to raise eyebrows fast.
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Ge0rG
Guus: alright
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Guus
obviously, everyone is welcome, but I suggest with stick with who's paying for what as defined: the XSF will pick up the tab for members and sponsors only.
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Ge0rG
Guus: this is a very understandable position
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Holger
Guus: Sure, that's fine.
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intosi
jonasw: you have an incoming PR
jonasw
intosi, cool!
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jonasw
that looks sane
jonasw
thank you :)
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Guus
that's fixing the observatory? nice!
jonasw
I think so
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zinid
the observatory will become usable again?
zinid
last time I checked it said GTFO
Ge0rG
zinid: it has your IP address hardcoded.
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jonasw
intosi, https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=jabber.org&type=client that seems wrong?
jonasw
ah, nevermind, that’s probably v6 going wrong
jonasw
can we get ipv6 support?
Guus
also, dns and jabber.org are not friends at the moment
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zinid
is jabber.org maintained?
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Ge0rG
in theory, yes
zinid
Ge0rG, I assumed in practice ;)
Ge0rG
I'm attempting to contact the admin for some weeks now.
zinid
who is the admin?
Ge0rG
zinid: stpeter
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yeah...
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Dave Cridland
Jabber.org the XMPP server?
intosi
zinid: why?
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intosi
There are DNS issues. If days had more than 24 hours, those would've been fully resolved.