XSF Discussion - 2018-01-31

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  61. jonasw moparisthebest, no, attic has no XMLs
  62. moparisthebest scratch that idea then
  63. jonasw moparisthebest, FYI, CoAP is a UDP binary HTTP-ish thing; can be used over DTLS (TLS for UDP). used for IoT stuff.
  64. Ge0rG Acronym galore!
  65. zinid let's reject XEP-0368 for the drama!
  66. Ge0rG zinid: we've had enough drama for this year already.
  67. zinid Ge0rG, okay
  68. Ge0rG 😅
  69. moparisthebest what drama? it's mainly trying to get IANA to do IANA stuff
  70. zinid IANA is too busy to add records for that marginal protocol XMP-wtf
  71. moparisthebest I'd think XMPP is more widely used than CoAP or managesieve
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  73. zinid > The primary reason for introducing CoAP over TCP [RFC0793] and TLS [RFC5246] is that some networks do not forward UDP packets. Complete blocking of UDP happens in between about 2% and 4% of terrestrial access networks, according to [EK2016].
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  75. Ge0rG UDP isn't used by any serious protocol anyway.
  76. zinid serious = HTTP or JSON based
  77. jonasw zinid, lol
  78. jonasw they do coap over tcp now
  79. jonasw that’s funny
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  98. Flow Ge0rG, QUIC?
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  101. Ge0rG Flow: accelerate the Internet!
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  160. jonasw when did council switch?
  161. jonasw was it before 2017-11-28 or after?
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  163. jonasw AFAICT first session of new council was 2017-11-29, is that correct?
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  167. derdaniel Hi. Could someone kill the s2s between gultsch.de and muc.xmpp.org? It's stuck again. (I think it happens when I switch certs?) thanks
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  169. jonasw cc @ intosi maybe?
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  172. intosi I'll take a look.
  173. derdaniel And like I said the last four times this happened. It's not urgent and you can leave it stuck if that helps you debug the issue and I will do everything in my power to help
  174. jonasw MattJ, maybe?
  175. Kev I'm trying to get the informational protoxep covering 'xmpp 2' stuff out before the summit, but it's getting tight, BTW.
  176. jonasw or Zash
  177. Kev Writing on the train at the moment.
  178. Ge0rG Will xmpp2 fix the s2s stuck issue?
  179. jonasw Kev, I’ll be happy to do some editing if that helps
  180. jonasw (i.e. do some more proof-reading than usual ;-))
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  182. Kev Ge0rG: Possibly not :)
  183. Kev jonasw: Ta. I think if I get anything out, it'll be useful.
  184. Kev Although Georg's slide stack is fairly thorough, I'd like us to have something in (proto)XEP form.
  185. intosi derdaniel: try again, please :)
  186. Ge0rG Kev: I still don't understand your reasons for that, but I'm not going to stop you
  187. intosi s2s:close("muc.xmpp.org", "gultsch.de"); | Closed outgoing session from muc.xmpp.org to gultsch.de | OK: Closed 1 s2s session | Result: nil s2s:close("gultsch.de", "muc.xmpp.org") | Closed 1 incoming session from gultsch.de to muc.xmpp.org | OK: Closed 1 s2s session
  188. Kev Ge0rG: I'm trying to produce suggested ways of addressing things too :)
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  190. daniel intosi: 👍
  191. Kev Plus, I think doing things in the context of a XEP helps (it means the IP picture is clear, etc.).
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  193. Ge0rG Kev: so you are not documenting what's broken but writing proto-protocol to fix it? That's great :)
  194. jonasw lovely :)
  195. Kev I'm not trying to just duplicate the slides in XEP form, no.
  196. Ge0rG Kev: now I'm really interested in what you propose
  197. Kev Nothing revolutionary.
  198. jonasw FWIW, even though I’m not going to be at summit, I’ll still be online to do editor tasks if needed.
  199. Ge0rG I hope the WebEx doesn't fail
  200. Kev jonasw: Thanks.
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  202. Kev Ge0rG: And me, I want you to give this presentation.
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  204. Kev Although, if it does fail, do you mind if I give a poor-man's approximation of your presentation?
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  206. Kev (Well, I'll do that anyway, it's a question of whether I could steal your slides)
  207. Ge0rG Kev: not at all. I hope that the points are sufficiently self-describing for you to present
  208. Kev Even for an idiot like me :)
  209. jonasw power-point karaoke
  210. jonasw ha
  211. Ge0rG attempts to imagine an idiot like Kev and fails.
  212. Kev jonasw: Musical chairs with power-point. When the music stops, whoever is still standing has to present the next slide.
  213. jonasw ha
  214. Kev I'm saying that now, and I've an awful feeling it's probably something someone has already done, somewhere, somewhen.
  215. jonasw power-point karaoke is actually a thing. you get a random slidedeck and need to make sense of it, for the amusement of the audience
  216. Ge0rG I remember a ppt karaoke session with Dan Kaminsky at some CCC congress, a decade ago. It was just hilarious.
  217. jonasw if you’re lucky, you get a really obscure slidedeck about brainfuck and happen to know something about brainfuck, but if you’re unlucky, it is about porous stones and you’re like what
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  219. daniel Ge0rG: was a called a power point karaoke or was it one of his actual talks?
  220. Ge0rG Kev: if you need any deeper content in anticipation of evil audience questions on that slide deck, feel free to let me know.
  221. Ge0rG daniel: it was an official powerpoint karaoke session, and Dan was "volunteered"
  222. Kev Ta. I did send a sub request to you, but you ignored it ;)
  223. Ge0rG Kev: I'm sorry, it's well possible that it got lost amidst dozens of spammer JIDs awaiting my approval.
  224. Guus brilliant, as soon as I press send, I spot a glaring typo.
  225. Ge0rG Kev: you should have used PARS
  226. Ge0rG Kev: but feel free to re-request now.
  227. Kev It was only a half hour or so ago.
  228. Kev I'll do so now.
  229. SamWhited power-point karaoke actually sounds really fun; after a few beers I imagine that would be hilarious.
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  231. jonasw SamWhited, it is
  232. jonasw even without beers :)
  233. Kev Oh, wait, maybe this is my fault and yax.im isn't whitelisted on isode.com
  234. Ge0rG Kev: I do have a mutual subscription with a JID that matches yours on the XSF application.
  235. Kev Yeah, I'm only using my work account while I'm travelling.
  236. Ge0rG Kev: and you are playing Unknown title - Unknown artist.
  237. Guus As time is running out (apologies for the delay), I'm cross-posting this invitation for _you_ to attend the XSF Dinner 2018 in a couple of places. Please help me spread the word! If you're interested in joining us, please RSVP by fill out a short form at https://goo.gl/forms/vgzWXyiRo5ne43yX2 but do so today!
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  239. Ge0rG > and yax.im isn't whitelisted on isode.com Because federation isn't a thing.
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  241. Kev Dame Blanche doesn't have a translation this year :(
  242. Kev Ge0rG: It was a sledgehammer approach to stopping spam. It's effective in that respect, but has unfortunate sideeffects.
  243. Ge0rG Kev: there should be a way to auto-whitelist JIDs on outgoing traffic to them.
  244. Kev That sounds sensible.
  245. jonasw reverse-XEP-0191
  246. Guus (As was pointed out elsewhere, the form didn't include the dinner date/time originally - it now does: it's Tomorrow, at 8.)
  247. Ge0rG What time will Summit start?
  248. jonasw 10 IIRC
  249. Guus We'll start at 10.
  250. jonasw tz?
  251. jonasw CET?
  252. Guus local time, so yeah, CET.
  253. jonasw so 09:00Z
  254. Ge0rG That sounds like I can make it in time, and even have some coffee first.
  255. Guus Excellent
  256. daniel Guus: do we get a copy of the form send to us?
  257. jonasw is there a plan when lunch break will be?
  258. daniel Or do I need to take a picture of the screen?
  259. jonasw maybe I can sync my lunch break :)
  260. Guus Daniel, you should get a copy by mail (but if you can confirm that for me, that'd be great)
  261. Guus jonasw: we will have lunch at the venue itself, but haven't explicitly defined a time for that. When most people grow hungry, I suppose.
  262. Kev Guus: i got a confirmation mail.
  263. SamWhited Guus: I got it on members@ and summit@
  264. jonasw Guus, okay
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  268. Kev Ge0rG: "Need for ephemeral all-online-clients routing (Bare-JID + <no-archive/>?)" I'm not sure about this. I think that if it went to all clients, it should go in the archive. Else you have issues with resync due to momentary disconnects.
  269. Ge0rG Kev: I could imagine that as useful for (some?) CSNs
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  271. Kev Possibly. But then you fall into the trap of inconsistent views, don't you?
  272. jonasw Kev, for "typing" and "stopped typing" it doesn’t matter (a lot), and that just pollutes the archive
  273. jonasw active and inactive makes sense to keep
  274. Kev I have a somewhat contentious suggestion here, but I don't know if I'm brave enough to make it.
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  278. Guus Thanks Kev. Sam, you surely didn't get the confirmation mail on the mailinglist?!
  279. Ge0rG Kev: be brave!
  280. Ge0rG While we are at presence spam... > iqvxh3d3s@xmpp.tips wants to subscribe to your presence, ...
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  282. Kev Seems legit.
  283. jonasw Kev, be brave!
  284. Kev "Special server handling"
  285. jonasw Guus, "RSVP before 7PM UTC (5PM Brussels time)" I’m pretty sure this is incorrect
  286. jonasw but that might be the glaring typo you spoke about
  287. Kev I'm thinking more of deliver/read receipts here than CSN, in the first instance.
  288. jonasw that’d be either 4PM UTC or 8PM brussels time
  289. Kev But what if you get your server to handle the message metadata, instead of clients doing the collation?
  290. jonasw Kev, that’d be great
  291. Guus jonasw: the glaring typo was in the subject, but you're right, that's also a mistake.
  292. Guus that's what I get for rushing things at the last moment. Again, apologies.
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  294. Ge0rG Kev: +1 to that
  295. jonasw Kev, that’d be great, but maybe quite a large step for now?
  296. Kev Well, 'for now' is kinda nebulous here.
  297. Ge0rG Kev: ask daniel about sending delivery receipts on MAM catch-up
  298. Kev Client collation of historical delivery receipts is painful at best. Even ignoring the traffic impact.
  299. Kev I've just had another evil and contentious thought.
  300. Kev CSN aren't messages, they're presence.
  301. Ge0rG Kev: except when they are used as read markers
  302. jonasw Ge0rG, are you confusing CSN and Chat Markers?
  303. jonasw CSN can’t be used as read markers AFAIK
  304. daniel Guus: yes got the confirmation.
  305. daniel Ge0rG: did I mention I'm doing this now. Even though the XEPs forbids this. I'm such a bad person
  306. Ge0rG daniel: you are doing what now?
  307. daniel Sending 184 on mam catchup
  308. daniel Only if there isn't one in mam already of course
  309. Ge0rG daniel: I think we talked about it some days ago. Or maybe it was jonasw telling me how your logic works?
  310. jonasw I’m pretty sure that the XEP doesn’t intend to forbid that
  311. Ge0rG jonasw: CSN can be used as an activity marker.
  312. jonasw Ge0rG, but that’s not read
  313. Ge0rG Kev: if we redefine CSN in terms of presence, we _might_ get rid of ephemeral-message-to-all-devices.
  314. jonasw hmm
  315. jonasw presence’ getting large
  316. Ge0rG don't forget to inject avatars and caps²
  317. Zash Transport csn in directed presence ?
  318. jonasw Kev, but then we’re getting in directed-presence semantics when you send CSN to specific contacts, don’t we?
  319. Zash That somehow makes sense
  320. jonasw I’d be worried about that
  321. jonasw I mean, yes, it makes sense
  322. jonasw but we’d have to look closely at the sematics involved in sending directed presence to people
  323. Ge0rG jonasw: what's wrong with directed presence?
  324. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m not 100% sure, but that would break broadcast of global presence changes, wouldn’t it?
  325. Kev As far as I can see, CSN in directed presence would work, and makes lots of things better.
  326. Kev So, my current strawman is that we move CSN to directed presence, we have the server handle receipts as special data, and that way we avoid (I think) ephemeral bare-JID messages.
  327. jonasw Ge0rG, if I send you directed presence with CSN, would my subsequent global presence change to away (a) not be broadcasted to you or (b) break the CSN I sent you before?
  328. jonasw Kev, I love it
  329. jonasw if it actually works :)
  330. Ge0rG Kev: we might be able to come up with other use-cases for ephemeral bare-JID messages, if we think about it hard enough.
  331. Kev Maybe. But it's not clear to me that we can't also solve them.
  332. SaltyBones Is there any good reading material on bare-JID messages somewhere? Because in my head all user generated messages should be bare-JID and all server generated messsages should be directed but I am probably missing a lot of use-cases.
  333. Kev What I'm trying to avoid is special-casing such that some messages don't hit the archive and some do.
  334. jonasw SaltyBones, file transfers are usually to full jid
  335. Kev SaltyBones: Georg's slide deck is online somewhere, I think. Ge0rG?
  336. jonasw (if they’re happening in-band)
  337. Ge0rG SaltyBones, Kev: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
  338. SaltyBones jonasw, maybe we don't need to discuss this here but: why?
  339. Kev Ta muchly.
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  341. Ge0rG Please reload, forgot to refresh the PDF export.
  342. jonasw SaltyBones, I don’t think it makes sense to broadcast a file to all clients by default.
  343. jonasw SaltyBones, think memory use, battery use etc. on mobiles
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  345. SaltyBones Ge0rG, 208-01-30.00 :)
  346. SaltyBones Is that the room it's in? :)
  347. Ge0rG SaltyBones: perfect
  348. Ge0rG Sorry, gotta go now.
  349. Kev jonasw: No, it doesn't make sense to broadcast it to any clients by default, but to hold it on the server until a client wants it :)
  350. SaltyBones jonasw, they don't have to accept it but how would the user chose which client to send it to? It's usually transparent to him what the contact is doing with his devices...
  351. SaltyBones Maybe opaque not transparent. :p
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  353. jonasw SaltyBones, offering is different from actually transferring the file
  354. jonasw once one client accepted the offer, you wouldn’t want to send your file to *all* clients
  355. jonasw you’d negotiate a transport with that client, and if the transport is in-band, you’d use messages to the full jid
  356. jonasw (to avoid other clients getting spammed with a transfer they didn’t accept)
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  358. SaltyBones Ah, I see. So the client sends directed even though the user only sent bare-JID.
  359. jonasw maybe
  360. SaltyBones Okay, I see maybe the distinction should be automatic
  361. SaltyBones vs interactive
  362. jonasw yes, users should of course never touch full JIDs
  363. jonasw if anything, they should touch a list of clients of the peer, with their disco identities
  364. jonasw but no full jIDs
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  366. SaltyBones Yeah, and even that I would strongly oppose. :)
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  380. SamWhited Guus: oh, sorry, I thought you were looking for confirmation that the survey went out
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  383. Guus SamWhited: 👍
  384. ralphm Everyone, please read Guus' e-mail and fill in the XSF Dinner form therein.
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  400. Guus Dinner update: I've just been in contact with the restaurant. If people would like to have a vegetarian dinner, that'll be possible. Some of the menu items are vegetarian (or will be slightly modified to be vegetarian). For a main course, there can be a pasta. If you're interested in a vegatarian option, please add that as a comment to the form (and tell the waiter tomorrow, when ordering)
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  413. Kev And there's always the option of A Tomato.
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  422. Guus to consume, or to throw?
  423. intosi Guus: there's a history there.
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  440. Kev This is not helpful rendering, but here's a very rough preview of my xmpp2 thoughts - https://www.dropbox.com/s/pkcbdwpxivg41gp/multi-client.html?dl=0
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  448. Steve Kille "not helpful" is quite an understatement
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  450. Kev I'm sure everyone can read HTML.
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  468. Guus Kev, you're getting awefully close to that guy from the Matrix. "All I see is blonde, red head"
  469. Guus (apart from the fact that that's the guy that ends up killing everyone, obviously)
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  472. jonasw spoilers!!k
  473. jonasw some day, I’ll set up a web service which renders github PRs against the xep repository...
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  477. Guus (fun fact, I initially spelled "red head" as "redhat")
  478. Kev All I see is Debian, Red Hat...
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  483. SouL This MUC gets better and better each day hah
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  486. jonasw SouL, until somebody complains about too much off-topic
  487. jonasw then we go back to xmpp@ ;-)
  488. SouL \o/
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  497. Zash jonasw: That happens to every group chat ever
  498. jonasw Zash, true
  499. jonasw except to off-topic groupchats
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  513. moparisthebest jonasw: can you un-archive https://trello.com/c/8arSL8aD/2-vote-on-moving-xep-0368-to-draft
  514. moparisthebest Still waiting on iana
  515. moparisthebest Hey that sounds like a good song title
  516. jonasw moparisthebest, done
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  518. moparisthebest Thanks
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  562. Guus Reminder: As time is running out (apologies for the delay), I'm cross-posting this invitation for _you_ to attend the XSF Dinner 2018 in a couple of places. Please help me spread the word! If you're interested in joining us, please RSVP by fill out a short form at https://goo.gl/forms/vgzWXyiRo5ne43yX2 but do so today!
  563. moparisthebest has joined
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  567. jonasw Guus, maybe highlight all people in the participants list by their nickname here?
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  578. Guus I'll do that as a last resort :)
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  582. jonasw hmmm
  583. jonasw the earlier they know the better?
  584. andy has left
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  586. Holger Seems xmpp.net is "too busy" quite often?
  587. intosi Can happen.
  588. jonasw I still think there’s a bug with the queue manager there
  589. intosi But not being able to submit any domains is perhaps a bit rich :)
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  591. intosi jonasw: very likely.
  592. jonasw I didn’t get the debug logs I asked for a few weeks ago and I didn’t have time to persue it since then
  593. intosi Did you ask for debug logs?
  594. Holger Ok. I'll wait with shutting down check.messaging.one then.
  595. jonasw intosi, I asked for somebody to lend me a hand for gathering information, yeah
  596. jonasw weeks ago, probably last year
  597. intosi Where did you ask?
  598. intosi Should be running again, FWIW.
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  604. jonasw intosi, iteam@
  605. jonasw intosi, specifically MR 20171215T10:36:44Z 000 <jonasw>  can somebody take a look at the logs, we seem to have a stuck queue again
  606. jonasw so yeah, several weeks, last year :)
  607. jonasw but then there were the holidays etc and I kinda lost track
  608. Guus is this that issue again where malformed characters cause the queue processing to stagnate?
  609. Guus that was a weird one
  610. jonasw maybe
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  614. intosi I might have a clue why that happens.
  615. jonasw that’d be great
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  633. Ge0rG Normally a client does disco#items on its service domain to find MUCs, File Upload and other nifty services. However, it is possible to have things like File Upload on the service domain. How is a client supposed to find out?
  634. Zash Disco info the domain first
  635. Zash To see if it even supports disco#items
  636. Ge0rG Zash: what if it doesn't support either?
  637. Zash And the account itself too
  638. Zash Disco#info all the things
  639. Ge0rG Roundtrips all the way
  640. Zash Ge0rG: what if?
  641. Ge0rG Zash: what if what.
  642. Zash What if whatif what
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  648. Zash Ge0rG: What if what don't support what ?
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  651. Ge0rG Zash: what if the service domain doesn't support disco#info
  652. Guus has left
  653. Zash Ge0rG: Then it's broken
  654. Tobias yeah
  655. Ge0rG Zash: so you want to tell me disco#info is mandatory and disco#items is optional?
  656. Tobias it's kind of a basic feature
  657. Zash And probably won't support disco#items either
  658. Tobias yup
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  660. Zash Ge0rG: Yes
  661. Ge0rG So I'm supposed to disco#info my service domain, then to disco#items it, then to disco#info each item.
  662. Zash At least I think so
  663. Ge0rG But if I disco#info my service domain, I'm not doing it in a code path where I'm collecting features, only checking for disco#items support
  664. Zash Ge0rG: Or do both kinds in parallel, and live with the possibility of an error
  665. Ge0rG Do I need to disco#items each of the items of my service domain's disco#items?
  666. Ge0rG It's disco#items all the way down!
  667. Zash I assume you want some limit
  668. Ge0rG Zash: do I?
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  670. Tobias Ge0rG, if you want to support that, it's what you have to do
  671. Ge0rG Tobias: I don't want to. Do I _have_ to?
  672. Zash Ge0rG: You don't have to do anything
  673. Tobias If you want to discover a File Upload component that hides some levels down
  674. Tobias you don't have to support that
  675. Tobias I'd probably not go further than 1 or 2 levels down and stop there
  676. Ge0rG My question is: is a client supposed to discover a File Upload on it's direct service domain?
  677. Zash Survey time?
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  679. Zash Ge0rG: Same as with proxy65
  680. Ge0rG Zash: can you un-redirect that answer, please?
  681. Zash Nothing about those require a separate domain
  682. Ge0rG Soooo....
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  685. Zash You as a client dev will want to support both setups
  686. Zash Both exist in the wild
  687. Ge0rG assumes this is a pun on behalf of a server developer and admin deploying such a setup.
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  689. Zash I think I moved all the file transfer helpers to my main domain, yes
  690. Ge0rG Zash: you are not the person I was talking of.
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  693. Zash Well, still
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  698. Ge0rG "You received a message encrypted with OMEMO but your client doesnt support OMEMO." *sigh*
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  700. Guus monar, Hantu.sc, bg, Dwisnewski, Holger, MattJ (and Ethan), michalwski: if you want to join us at dinner tomorrow, please RSVP at https://goo.gl/forms/vgzWXyiRo5ne43yX2 - do so today please!
  701. Guus (as well as anyone else that feels like joining)
  702. Ge0rG I wish I could
  703. intosi Anyone who wants the vegetarian option: mention it in the notes at the bottom of the form.
  704. zinid Ge0rG, are you hungry?
  705. Ge0rG zinid: yes
  706. Holger I'm too stingy.
  707. Holger Ge0rG could borrow me his member pass.
  708. Holger I could pretend to be Ge0rG.
  709. Ge0rG Holger: are you attending?
  710. zinid Holger, just always say that we need XMPP2.0
  711. Holger Ge0rG: Yeah.
  712. Holger zinid: :-)
  713. Zash We are all Ge0rG on this blessed day
  714. Ge0rG Holger: I wouldn't mind you taking my position at the Dinner, if this is okay with the Org.
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  716. Ge0rG Zash: in that case you need to wear a black fedora hat and politely troll everyone.
  717. SaltyBones Ge0rG, you are not coming?
  718. Ge0rG SaltyBones: no
  719. SaltyBones That's a bit disappointing.
  720. Zash Ge0rG: Actual fedora ?
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  723. Holger Ge0rG: That's nice thanks, but I was just kidding. I'll meet jabber.at-Mati and we'll search for a French fries stand :-)
  724. Holger Belgium fries.
  725. Ge0rG Zash: it looks like the one worn by Indiana Jones, except it's black.
  726. Ge0rG I pretend to be a Black Hat.
  727. Ge0rG Holger: last time I attended Summit, another XSF member (I wasn't one at the time) invited me to the dinner but then couldn't come for personal reasons.
  728. Guus "he tricked me into coming and then left me on my own."
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  734. Guus For what it's worth: although I appreciate the guesture - and would like to have Holger there - I'd try to avoid allowing people to trade places with non-members. That'll start to raise eyebrows fast.
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  737. Ge0rG Guus: alright
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  741. Guus obviously, everyone is welcome, but I suggest with stick with who's paying for what as defined: the XSF will pick up the tab for members and sponsors only.
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  743. Ge0rG Guus: this is a very understandable position
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  745. Holger Guus: Sure, that's fine.
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  762. intosi jonasw: you have an incoming PR
  763. jonasw intosi, cool!
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  766. jonasw that looks sane
  767. jonasw thank you :)
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  771. Guus that's fixing the observatory? nice!
  772. jonasw I think so
  773. jjrh has left
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  775. zinid the observatory will become usable again?
  776. zinid last time I checked it said GTFO
  777. Ge0rG zinid: it has your IP address hardcoded.
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  779. jonasw intosi, https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=jabber.org&type=client that seems wrong?
  780. jonasw ah, nevermind, that’s probably v6 going wrong
  781. jonasw can we get ipv6 support?
  782. Guus also, dns and jabber.org are not friends at the moment
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  798. zinid is jabber.org maintained?
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  800. Ge0rG in theory, yes
  801. zinid Ge0rG, I assumed in practice ;)
  802. Ge0rG I'm attempting to contact the admin for some weeks now.
  803. zinid who is the admin?
  804. Ge0rG zinid: stpeter
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  807. zinid yeah...
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  925. Dave Cridland Jabber.org the XMPP server?
  926. intosi zinid: why?
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  928. intosi There are DNS issues. If days had more than 24 hours, those would've been fully resolved.
  929. intosi It's high on my to-do.
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