XSF Discussion - 2018-02-03

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  91. Flow

    Tobias, how/where did you learn about those two I-Ds?

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  110. Tobias

    The Twitter realms

  111. Tobias

    Will see if I get around reading them on the 🚆

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  115. Flow

    Tobias, kk :)

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  130. zinid

    Failed outbound s2s EXTERNAL authentication zinid.ru -> jabber.org ( Authentication failed: Peer provided no SASL mechanisms; most likely it doesn't accept our certificate

  131. zinid

    does anybody know when SASL EXTERNAL will be fixed on jabber.org?

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  152. Tobias

    zinid, yeah...DNS will be fixed.

  153. Tobias

    zinid, currently a lot people are busy doing FOSDEM things though

  154. zinid

    I don't think this is DNS problem

  155. zinid

    this is a problem in certificate verification

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  157. Tobias


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  160. zinid

    jabber.org's server doesn't accept LE certificates for example

  161. Tobias

    Flow, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00#section-2.2 sounds tricky to do in a federated world, unless the "Authentication Service" can federate with others

  162. Tobias

    zinid, i'm using LE on my server and it can talk to jdev, so it supports them but there seem to be issues

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  166. zinid

    Tobias, that's because it authenticate your server via dialback

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  168. Tobias

    could be

  169. zinid

    but not every server is running dialback module, and more server will stop using it in the future

  170. zinid

    but not every server is running dialback module, and more servers will stop using it in the future

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  209. SaltyBones

    Tobias: so if the authentication service is trusted this is not e2e and thus not like omemo/otr, right?

  210. Tobias

    that's the question

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  223. Flow

    Tobias, not sure if it is tricky in a federated system, but if you don't have a central authentication authority and can't cryptographically bind your identity with your key, your only option is probably something like fingerprint verification and/or TOFU

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  227. Tobias

    right, in the end there are still people who want end to end verification when they meet

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  233. Tobias

    "By definition, the AS is invested with a large amount of trust. A malicious AS can impersonate - or allow an attacker to impersonate - any user of the system. This risk can be mitigated by publishing the binding between identities and keys in a public log such as Key Transparency (KT) [KeyTransparency]."

  234. Tobias

    Flow, they just bolt heavy KT on it and be done with it

  235. Tobias

    wonder how that scales, these KT logs become quite large

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  238. SaltyBones

    Tobias, have you found the corresponding mailing list discussion already?

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  242. Tobias

    there doesn't ssem to be one, currently it's just a personal draft

  243. SaltyBones

    Yeah, I can't find anything either.

  244. Tobias

    Flow, also https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00#section-3.1.6 :) "should be able to interoperate"

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  248. Tobias

    at least not a MAY :)

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  252. SaltyBones

    Okay, from what I can find they don't even state how this is supposed to work so one can check.

  253. SaltyBones

    And the reference to the protocol has no link. :p

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  256. Tobias

    Federated authentication is tricky

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  262. SaltyBones

    Is that this: https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/message-security-layer-a-modern-take-on-securing-communication-f16964b79642 ?

  263. SaltyBones

    Tobias, but for proper e2e you need e2e verification anyway...

  264. SaltyBones

    You can get away without it if you have decent ratcheting, I suppose.

  265. Tobias

    I did a federated authentication thing for iot. But there I hard linked the crypto to the network layer (IPv6 address)

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  267. Tobias

    That's not directly possible with free choice DNS names so we would need a different system for XMPP

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  272. SaltyBones

    "hard linked"?

  273. SaltyBones

    So if a device is compromised you throw it away because the key cannot be changed?

  274. SaltyBones

    (Seems to be one of the few cases where this might not be problem.)

  275. Tobias

    If you change the key you change the address

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  277. SaltyBones

    Tobias, I axed: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/KN9-Dy26tBGMx4YkzY98ZDkpRTg

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  279. Tobias

    I linked to proto earlier. See history

  280. Tobias


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  282. SaltyBones

    Oh, cool, I'll add that!

  283. Tobias

    Don't know how future proof that is. It's not mentioning block chain at all

  284. SaltyBones


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  287. SaltyBones

    Tobias, https://twitter.com/paul_pearce/status/959138611617673216

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  646. Ge0rG

    AES CBC is literally a block chain.

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  652. Zash


  653. Zash

    Is "nano" still a cool word?

  654. Ge0rG

    Zash: sorry, nope

  655. Zash


  656. Zash

    "microblockchain" then?

  657. Zash


  658. Ge0rG

    "nano" was a thing when I wen to school. Which is now almost 20 years ago

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  661. Zash

    I was in school 20 years ago too

  662. Ge0rG

    Zash: I propose "eco" or "bio" because it comes without PoW

  663. waqas

    Yeah, enough time has passed to move to pico now

  664. Zash

    PicoBlockChain - PBC

  665. waqas

    Ge0rG: Eco has been around for too long too

  666. waqas

    I haven't head of Bio that much in tech however… XEP-xxxx: Bio Chains

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  668. Zash


  669. MattJ

    nano is a cool word, I use it all the time

  670. Zash

    Something something hypercube routing

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  673. pep.

    Noob question, is there a way to never send the plain passwd to the server and only do scram, from account creation to the end. (Thinking about ibr)

  674. Ge0rG

    Hyper cube, wasn't that the movie full of deadly traps?

  675. Ge0rG

    pep.: you need to send the password during ibr

  676. MattJ

    pep., no

  677. Zash

    Wasn't there some draft/protoxep on uploading SCRAM stuff?

  678. MattJ


  679. Zash

    Bunneh: xep scram

  680. Bunneh

    Zash: Sorry, I couldn't find a match

  681. pep.

    Zash: would be nice

  682. pep.

    Also, scram for the web when

  683. Zash

    Hah, good luck

  684. Zash

    Re the talk of device / client registration that was mentioned on the summit

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  686. Zash

    In't that something like the model of OAuth, where instead of the user signing into their account, they authorize the clients to access their account.

  687. Zash

    In that model, password login don't as much sense

  688. Ge0rG

    I want an Auth mechanism called SCUMM.

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  700. moparisthebest

    What like oauth with Facebook?

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