XSF Discussion - 2018-02-06

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  156. jonasw

    some people at this university want to establish some team chats, with the following requirements: - instant messaging - availability/presence status - video chat - desktop and mobile end devices they already have XMPP in their mind. I’m afraid of the "video chats" requirement. Any suggestions what I tell them at the 15th?

  157. jubalh has joined

  158. jonasw

    I doubt there will be any funding to be made available, given that Matrix et al. could possibly be adopted without funding.

  159. mathieui

    video chat on all devices, I suppose?

  160. jonasw

    I guess.

  161. Tobias


  162. jonasw

    sorry, jitsi is completely horrible as day-to-day IM client

  163. jonasw

    (at least last time I checked, which was around 1.5 years ago)

  164. Tobias

    edhelas, does movim already do voice/video via webRTC?

  165. Guus

    Openfire comes with a plugin that installs the Jitsi Meet suite locally

  166. jonasw

    Guus, is there a client which can make use of that?

  167. Guus

    Jitsi Meet is a web client that does webrtc

  168. jonasw

    oh, that’s a web thing

  169. jonasw

    okay, that’s interesting

  170. jonasw

    what’s the deployment experience with that? does it work well?

  171. Ge0rG

    I wanted to set it up once, but it conflicted with my prosody.

  172. Guus

    Jitsi meet itself is pretty stable ( https://meet.jit.si ) - The Openfire installation of it has some quircks, but it's managable (notably, you _need_ a proper TLS certificate, and I'm lagging behind, version wise, a couple of months)

  173. jonasw

    who’s developing that?

  174. jonasw

    (jitsi-meet that is)

  175. Ge0rG

    And the documentation wasn't telling me how it's supposed to work, only what commands I should run to "make it work"

  176. Guus

    The jitsi team, now acquired by Atlassian.

  177. Guus

    With Openfire, you can set it up in two minutes (literally).

  178. jonasw

    that looks seriously neat

  179. Guus

    I'd actually love to get your feedback on the Openfire integration. It's primarily one guy and me that's building it, and still has rough edges.

  180. jonasw

    I haven’t looked at openfire, sorry, only at the meet.jit.si thing

  181. jonasw

    but that looks very polished

  182. jonasw

    being acquired by atlassian, I’d be worried they might drop XMPP?

  183. mathieui

    the only downside of jitsi meet is that while it uses a MUC, the chat is quite limited through the web interface

  184. mathieui


  185. Guus

    Well, I've had a discussion with them about that. I believe that the are underutilizing XMPP, and could have a better integration, from a XMPP point of view. Their project lead pointed out that he was aware, but that their goal is not to build a strictly XMPP-optimized solution. Instead, they want to build a highly performant web-based video confernence solution.

  186. Guus

    XMPP is just a tool for them, not an end goal

  187. Ge0rG

    the chat features demand of a web-video-conf is rather low

  188. jonasw

    Guus, so they’re going to ditch XMPP as soon as it is more convenient.

  189. jonasw

    the only way to make that less convenient is by having great interoperating clients.

  190. Guus

    jonasw, no - their setup is heavily integrated with XMPP

  191. Ge0rG

    We really need modern and usable mobile and desktop clients

  192. Ge0rG

    A dozen of half-clients don't count.

  193. jonasw

    Ge0rG, pay me

  194. Guus

    but I'm not sure if they'd manage interop with other clients than their own, for the audio/video bit (most of it is Jingle based though, so it might actually work - and they're very happy to work with the community and add features/changes, as long as it's not conflicting with their interests of course.

  195. jonasw

    Guus, okay

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  197. jonasw

    I heard rumors of a Jitsi-Meet-Integration with Spark, is that a thing yet?

  198. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I offered you a job already, just not XMPP related ;) Maybe it does pay well enough to work half-time and to have the rest of the time for XMPP :P

  199. Guus

    but yeah, get yourself a host, disable the firewall for starters, install openfire, install a proper certificate, install the ofmeet and offocus plugins, done.

  200. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I’m already just going to work 75% in my job; right now I’ve got masterthesis and other things on my plate though.

  201. Guus

    jonasw: almost, but it's not what you expect. We simply open the web view in a browser in Spark :)

  202. jonasw

    Guus, that’s already a good start, if it provides a good flow from "we’re in a MUC, but we need a video/voicechat to discuss things now"

  203. Ge0rG

    jonasw: personally, I can't afford to pay somebody to do the work I'd gladly do myself if I had time.

  204. jonasw

    Ge0rG, heh

  205. jonasw

    Ge0rG, point is, I think most a are painfully aware of the issues.

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  207. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it was even discussed at the summit, but I didn't get the conclusion, if there was one.

  208. jonasw

    I don’t recall either

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  211. Ge0rG

    jonasw: maybe we should reduce fragmentation and focus our efforts. Stop writing JabberCat and help out making Gajim Great Again.

  212. jonasw

    stop writing yaxim and implement video chat in conversations.

  213. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yaxim came first :P

  214. Guus

    jonasw: I certainly would love your feedback on the Openfire / jitsi meet integration bit

  215. Guus

    give it a try if you've got like half an hour to play.

  216. jonasw

    Guus, I’m still looking for an openfire-docker-thing

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  218. Guus

    jonasw, surevine might have one, but there's no official one from us

  219. Guus

    we do have .deb, .rpm and .exe installers - or you can build from source.

  220. jonasw

    I’m asking for docker specifically because I can do that in travis-ci without hassle

  221. jonasw

    (and having it would make it easier to play around locally indeed)

  222. Guus

    I don't have one, sorry :)

  223. jonasw

    regarding testing jitsi meet+openfire, if it requires a working TLS cert, I’m not sure how that’ll work in half an hour ;-)

  224. Guus


  225. Guus


  226. jonasw

    but that requires me to do that on an internet-reachable server

  227. Guus

    (also, the cert requirement will be dropped again after we are able to fix an internal issue)

  228. Link Mauve

    Guus, I do want to make existing desktop clients interop with Jitsi Meet.

  229. Link Mauve

    For now just in one to one, so not with Jitsi Meet, but MUC video is part of a longer term plan.

  230. Guus

    jonasw: well, you can do a self-signed one, but then your browser will need to recognize it

  231. jonasw

    does it need to do that beforehands, or can I simply accept it when it asks for it?

  232. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: in which client do you want to make that happen?

  233. Guus

    jonasw, also, if you disable all encryption in Openfire, it'll work - not something you want to do outside of a local setup, obviously.

  234. jonasw

    ah okay

  235. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, probably Gajim first, since it already has good Gstreamer integration.

  236. jonasw

    I’ll just do that I guess :>

  237. Link Mauve

    Also to get up to speed with Gstreamer personally.

  238. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: I was frightened for a moment you could say "poezio"

  239. Link Mauve


  240. Guus

    Link Mauve: that'd be great. As I said, we'll integrate the Meet web client in Spark, which is a start. Proper integration would be better!

  241. jonasw

    Link Mauve, come over and do it in Jabbercat. We’ve got Qt and the chromium engine. WebRTC for free!

  242. jonasw

    Ge0rG, libaa!

  243. Link Mauve

    jonasw, the idea is exactly to add interoperability between desktop and web, not just web. :p

  244. jonasw

    Link Mauve, that’s still desktop?

  245. Link Mauve

    jonasw, as in, using jitsi-videobridge to make Gstreamer clients talk with WebRTC clients seamlessly.

  246. jonasw

    can’t you talk webrtc from any client?

  247. Ge0rG

    jonasw: libcaca please.

  248. jonasw

    Ge0rG, does libcaca have a sweet demo like bb?

  249. Ge0rG

    jonasw: dunno, but you can mplayer the matrix trailer with it

  250. Ge0rG

    and there is an awesome visualized called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.

  251. Ge0rG

    and there is an awesome visualizer called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.

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  255. zinid

    Ge0rG: what's wrong with mobile clients?

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  257. zinid

    I agree desktop clients suck

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  259. Ge0rG

    zinid: Conversations is okay, minus voip/video. The others all suck.

  260. Ge0rG

    zinid: especially on iOS

  261. zinid

    Ge0rG: ah, iOS, right

  262. Ge0rG

    zinid: the situation on other platforms is even worse, but fortunately nobody expects that any more.

  263. zinid

    Ge0rG: you can always suppress your ego and join conversations team 😁

  264. Ge0rG

    zinid: I'd use all my time to keep up with the changes in the code base and couldn't contribute anyway.

  265. zinid

    I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now

  266. Ge0rG

    zinid: I'm not sure what you are talking about.

  267. zinid

    Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project

  268. Link Mauve

    “10:12:28 jonasw> can’t you talk webrtc from any client?”, Gstreamer doesn’t support everything yet AFAIK, although I’m not fully sure what’s still missing.

  269. zinid

    Especially if it's superior

  270. Link Mauve

    But jitsi-videobridge integration will be needed anyway for MUC video, so why not start with that.

  271. Ge0rG

    > Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project tell that to daniel :P

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  273. zinid

    Ge0rG: so you're just fulfilling your ego and now cry why we don't have mobile clients?

  274. Ge0rG

    zinid: I have contributed code to conversations, I have tested and reported a number of bugs on the iOS clients. I really don't know what you want from me now.

  275. zinid

    Ge0rG: VoIP stuff 😀

  276. Ge0rG

    zinid: not gonna happen

  277. zinid

    Ge0rG: why? Ego again?

  278. Link Mauve

    jonasw, Ge0rG, nowadays we have 256 colours available (some terminals even support 24-bit, but ncurses doesn’t), we don’t need terrible things like libcaca anymore. :p

  279. Guus

    have you guys tried the IOS client from Tigase? They showed it to me at FOSDEM briefly. Looked nice enough

  280. Link Mauve

    See poezio’s gorgeous avatar display. ^^

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  282. zinid

    Link Mauve: which doesn't work

  283. Guus

    (I don't have an iPhone, so I've not really played with it though)

  284. Link Mauve

    Works for me.

  285. Ge0rG

    Guus: IIRC I enrolled for the beta test a year ago, but then was disappointed that there is no bug tracker to report into

  286. daniel

    > I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now This 'client a is not written in my favorite programming language / ui toolkit thus I really need to start my own from scratch' is one of the reasons we don't have a lot of good clients.

  287. Ge0rG

    zinid: as opposed to you, I'm not driven by my ego :P I just know the insanity that awaits me, should I start writing VoIP/video code

  288. Ge0rG

    daniel: but it's the reasons we have *a lot* of clients!

  289. zinid

    Ge0rG: ah, so you're just a pussy 😁

  290. jonasw

    daniel, the reason for that though is that we only have free-time developers.

  291. Ge0rG

    daniel: and out of all people, *you* shouldn't complain about client diversity :P

  292. Ge0rG

    zinid: and you are a dick. So what's the problem, let's do it quick!

  293. jonasw


  294. zinid


  295. jonasw

    TIL the ejabberd-MUC has an avatar

  296. Ge0rG

    zinid: the fact that you recognized that just added a sympathy point to your score.

  297. Guus

    damnit, zinid stole my sympathy point!

  298. zinid

    daniel: but in Android you have the same language and toolkit lol 😁

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  300. Ge0rG

    jonasw: we only have free-time CADT developers... https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

  301. zinid

    Ge0rG: what about funding? How much can we collect per month?

  302. Ge0rG

    zinid: who is "we" and what do we want to collect for?

  303. zinid

    Ge0rG: we - the xmpp community

  304. zinid

    Collect for the salary

  305. Ge0rG

    zinid: the XSF is collecting some amount of money. Last time I checked, there was strict opposition against collecting money to fund development of a single client.

  306. Ge0rG

    zinid: it is easy to f*ck this up: assumed we have funding for one or two developers, how are we going to distribute that?

  307. zinid

    Ge0rG: why? We can leave donors to control the development depending on their money contribution, matrix does this

  308. Ge0rG

    should we give the money to daniel because he's writing the best Android client, or maybe to me because it's good to have alternatives? To JC for improving the web client? To lovetox for Gajim? To somebody else?

  309. Ge0rG

    zinid: the XSF is "vendor neutral", so it can't really solve this problem

  310. zinid

    Ge0rG: well, we should collect applications then donors will decide

  311. zinid

    We can create JSF as you suggested

  312. Ge0rG

    zinid: but then again the JSF will be vendor-neutral as well and have the exact same problem!

  313. zinid

    Ge0rG: what problem?

  314. Ge0rG

    zinid: with Matrix, there was THE client, and then they switched from THE matrix client to riot.im, by whatever mechanism they used to decide that riot is better now

  315. Ge0rG

    zinid: the XSF is lacking volunteers even for the regular tasks we have. There is nobody left to run another Org

  316. zinid

    Ge0rG: actually they have the neat patreon policy: you can control the development if you contribute some decent amount

  317. Ge0rG

    zinid: that's great. So now they are owned by this one big crypto money scam org?

  318. zinid

    Ge0rG: then we can just open patreon project and will control the development via bugtracker

  319. zinid

    So no org is required

  320. mathieui

    depends if you want accountability or not

  321. Ge0rG

    zinid: yes. Please create a patreon project, invite developers of different XMPP clients and let them define tasks and prices, then go out and collect funds

  322. zinid

    Ge0rG: what's wrong if the project will be aquired?

  323. jonasw

    patreon might not be the right thing for this

  324. jonasw

    but the general concept probably applies

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  327. zinid

    Ge0rG: I'm actually asking here on purpose, if there are people wanting to contribute

  328. Ge0rG

    zinid: to contribute money? I'm not sure you'll find anyone in here.

  329. jonasw

    I’m not sure what tax implications it’d have. I’m also pretty sure that I’d have to run that by my employer, which feels to be too much hassle.

  330. zinid

    Ge0rG: here - in the XSF

  331. Ge0rG

    jonasw: giving or taking?

  332. zinid

    Ge0rG: nobody, really?

  333. Guus

    I actually think that it's not a bad idea if the XSF helps individual people to sign up for Patreon or similar things

  334. Ge0rG

    Guus: is it something the developers can't do on their own?

  335. zinid

    What, even 10$/month is a terrible burden for an XSF member?

  336. jonasw

    Ge0rG, taking

  337. jonasw

    giving is trivial

  338. Guus

    actually, https://converse.js lists both Patreon and LiberaPay on its website. Everyone can start with contributing to that.

  339. jonasw

    zinid, if we shuffle funds around inside the XSF, I’m not sure that’ll help in any way

  340. Guus

    Ge0rG: devs _can_ do that on theirselves, but everything is hard if you don't know how to do it. Simple guides can go a long way.

  341. Ge0rG

    jonasw: regarding taking: it's a secondary source of income that you need to income-tax. You need to make a tax declaration at the end of the year and pay something between 0 and 40% of it back

  342. jonasw

    okay, I’ll have to make tax declarations starting next year anyways.

  343. Ge0rG

    Guus: I've never interacted with patreon. Is there some kind of tag system where we can group all xmpp developers?

  344. jonasw

    so that is not overhead which counts

  345. jonasw

    but employer things would be annoying.

  346. jonasw

    (not that annoying probably)

  347. Ge0rG

    jonasw: IIUC you only need to tell your employer, not ask them.

  348. jonasw

    yeah, probably

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  351. jonasw

    damn, I didn’t consider I’ll have to file taxes now anyways. I might as well give it a shot the.n

  352. SaltyBones

    I would be curious which features users even want.

  353. Guus

    boom, I've just pledged to converse.js. Now you guys.

  354. SaltyBones

    Is it "just work better" or "vidcalling" or "moar crypto"?

  355. zinid

    Guus: there are two problems with existing project: they cannot attract donors and the quality is mostly shit, sadly

  356. Guus

    Ge0rG: I don't know.

  357. jonasw

    SaltyBones, all of the three

  358. jonasw

    with "moar crypto" breaking the other two

  359. Guus

    zinid, you were telling people to pay developers to allow them to improve quality. Converse.JS lets you do that.

  360. jonasw

    Ge0rG, we could make a page on xmpp.org where ways to support XMPP clients are listed

  361. SaltyBones

    jonasw, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Af1qeouMc

  362. SaltyBones


  363. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'd love to have that, but I suppose we need some open and egalitarian process to enroll developers, so that we don't violate our "vendor neutrality"

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  365. jonasw

    Ge0rG, add a field to the client list, boom done.

  366. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'd like to have another field in the client list: a short description

  367. Guus

    what other xmpp projects have Patreon-like pages?

  368. Ge0rG

    and a logo

  369. jonasw

    Ge0rG, do that

  370. jonasw

    logo is a good idea actually

  371. Guus

    I'd be happy to spend a few bucks/month on several

  372. jonasw

    we can base64 that and have the python stuff put it in an image directory automatically

  373. zinid

    Guus: still, the first problem remains. That's why I asked if XSF members can contribute, that will be a great start

  374. jonasw

    Guus, conversations maybe?

  375. jonasw

    Guus, you’re tempting me to set up liberapay just now ;)

  376. Guus

    jonasw: I buy conversations, the client.

  377. jonasw


  378. jonasw

    good :)

  379. Guus

    jonasw, seriously, go for it.

  380. jonasw

    (I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP client developers is going to be a good thing)

  381. jonasw

    (I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP developers is going to be a good thing)

  382. SaltyBones

    hm...can you gift something to people on the app store?

  383. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: no :(

  384. SaltyBones

    There are still a few people whom I would like to be able to reach with conversations...

  385. SaltyBones


  386. daniel

    i'd try to come up with actual business models instead of relying on donations

  387. Guus

    jonasw: the idea is that non-members also make use of it. :)

  388. Ge0rG

    daniel: don't you have one already?

  389. SaltyBones

    daniel, is there a way to have vouchers or something?

  390. Guus

    daniel, obviously. But every bit helps, right?

  391. daniel

    Ge0rG, yes. that's why i'm recommending that approach over donations

  392. jonasw

    SaltyBones, sadly, the only way may be to wait for the next offer. I was lucky that C was free around the holidays.

  393. Ge0rG has a business model where another app he develops pays for the time to work on yaxim.

  394. Link Mauve

    Guus, Gajim has three options here: https://gajim.org/dev.php

  395. SaltyBones

    jonasw, what I'm saying is, I bought it and I would buy it for other people to support daniel and get them to use it...

  396. suzyo has joined

  397. jonasw

    SaltyBones, I see

  398. jonasw

    (my issue was that family doesn’t have any payment info associated with their google account)

  399. daniel

    Guus, sure. that wasn't a comment on you pledging towards converse.js. that was just a general statement on the 'how can we fund xmpp clients' discussion

  400. zinid

    What's wrong with donations? Even if we fail to init a project we can always give the money to some existing project depending on elections

  401. Ge0rG

    when you buy Conversations on Google Play, Google will keep 30%, and Merkel will keep some ~30% as well. It's better to meet Daniel and spend him a beer ;)

  402. jonasw

    except beer ;-)

  403. Ge0rG

    a beverage.

  404. SaltyBones

    Maybe I'll try getting a play store gift card and see if that works...

  405. daniel

    Ge0rG, i love beverages. but beverages don't pay for rent

  406. daniel

    at least i never tried that…

  407. Guus

    if anyone is interested, maybe create a wiki page that links to all donation pages of XMPP projects?

  408. zinid

    Since it's supposed to have a lot of donors, the elections supposed to be fair enough

  409. Ge0rG

    daniel: depends on your landlord. If you can make them drunk every time they want your money... :P

  410. Guus

    Daniel: depends on the land...whathesaid

  411. Ge0rG

    Guus: that's a sensible approach as well. Maybe we should ask the Board whether adding links to donation pages would be appropriate for the client/server software lists?

  412. Guus

    Ge0rG: wouldn't be the worst of ideas

  413. zinid

    Guus: the point is to find a single important task and donate, that is iOS or desktop client, and if we just list all the projects this will not accumulate a lot of money within a particular project

  414. Ge0rG

    zinid: so who is going to choose which client gets featured, then?

  415. daniel

    zinid, i feel like at least some of the client developers wouldn't even want to work full time on their projects

  416. Guus

    zinid, you're right - but it does help, and could be a first step that we could do _today_. We can always do different things too.

  417. zinid

    Ge0rG: polling

  418. SaltyBones

    Ge0rG, could you create a PR with logos?

  419. jonasw

    if I’m gonna work full-time on a client, it needs to be a safe employment; I couldn’t quit my job only to find that two months later, the client doesn’t pay enough anymore.

  420. zinid

    daniel: I think there will be some who will 😁

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  422. jonasw

    Ge0rG, SaltyBones, if you do a PR with the logos as base64 inside the json or as files in an appropriate structure below content and refereneces to the file names in the JSON, I’ll take care of the rest of the templating/python magic

  423. zinid

    jonasw: yeah, that's the problem

  424. Ge0rG

    jonasw: SVG or PNG? What resolution(s)?

  425. Ge0rG

    zinid: never trust a poll you didn't manipulate yourself!

  426. daniel

    creating a business is always risky. i think i spend like at least two years working full time on Conversations before i made any significant amount of money from it

  427. goffi

    daniel: if there is not secret, how do you make most of your money ? With support ?

  428. SaltyBones

    daniel, convince some of your clients that they really want vidcalling ;)

  429. zinid

    Ge0rG: wut?

  430. SaltyBones

    or maybe jonasw tell your university to hire daniel to add it! ;)

  431. Ge0rG

    zinid: see, there is money involved. People will try to cheat your poll so they end up receiving the money.

  432. zinid

    Ge0rG: the elections will be forged? 😀

  433. jonasw

    Ge0rG, whatever you find. SVG is fine, PNG would be safer though.

  434. Ge0rG

    zinid: you know how it works from your state elections :P

  435. zinid

    Ge0rG: how is that when only donors can poll?

  436. jonasw

    SaltyBones, I doubt they’ll want to pay a lot for that communication thing. otherwise I’ll be recommending daniel as consultant for sure.

  437. SaltyBones

    jonasw, try to convince them!

  438. Ge0rG

    zinid: So what you propose is that instead of just funding what they want, people are supposed to make a collective, put together significant money and then have a majority decide what that money will be spent on?

  439. jonasw

    SaltyBones, hah...

  440. SaltyBones

    It's usually not their money..

  441. SaltyBones has left

  442. Ge0rG

    jonasw: you just need to find some source of money and redirect accordingly.

  443. zinid

    Ge0rG: majority? Everyone can poll

  444. Ge0rG

    zinid: you are contradicting yourself.

  445. zinid

    Ge0rG: amongst donors

  446. zinid

    Ge0rG: you just don't get it

  447. Ge0rG

    zinid: indeed, I'm not getting it.

  448. daniel

    SaltyBones, i think at this point any money is better invested in a decent desktop client

  449. zinid

    Ge0rG: every donor can poll on the project selection, nobody else

  450. daniel

    because i'm actually doing ok and Conversations is good enough for now

  451. zinid

    daniel: still iOS left

  452. zinid

    And probably even more important imho

  453. Guus

    Daniel, kudos for that. Not everyone is gracious enough to say "i've got enough, give it to others".

  454. Ge0rG

    daniel: you could start Conversations/Web now. Or Conversations/W32!

  455. daniel

    zinid, probably. in any case *not Conversations*. is my point

  456. zinid

    daniel: and not ejabberd, so what? 😀

  457. Ge0rG

    Guus: I have also arrived at a point where it's not reasonable for me to accept funding, unless it's either at my employer's business consulting rate ($$$) or if it's on the order sufficient to buy a yacht.

  458. daniel

    Ge0rG: that be really stupid. If anything I'd contribute to dino or converse or what ever

  459. Ge0rG

    daniel: but the network effect!!1

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  461. Link Mauve

    daniel, I contribute to these two, with time though, not money.

  462. Link Mauve

    If only we could pool time as easily as we do money.

  463. Ge0rG

    I contribute too! By yelling at the developers in their ticket systems!

  464. Guus

    Link Mauve: I suspect that many projects prefer time over money. I'd love to have devs for Spark, for instance - that badly needs a lot of work.

  465. Ge0rG

    Guus: the challenge is to find somebody who can actually reduce your workload, not increase it.

  466. Guus

    Ge0rG: indeed. Which is why I like GSoC, but that's a future investment (and somewhat risky, if you ignore the 'its-also-fun-to-do' bit)

  467. jonasw

    my third-party perspective on GSoC is that it rarely turns out really useful for the involved projects; is that false?

  468. Guus

    You know what - I think I'm going to blog a call-for-help for Spark devs. Most of our users are corporate. There's bound to be a few that have Devs

  469. Guus

    jonasw: I have one year experience. Two of the two students that I was working with last year were at the summit and fosdem.

  470. jonasw

    but was the code useful?

  471. Guus

    yes, but that's not the point.

  472. jonasw

    but that was my question :)

  473. jonasw

    (in response to what Ge0rG said about "not increasing your workload")

  474. Guus

    The code that a student produces during GSoC can be created by a mentor in the same time it takes to mentor the student.

  475. Guus

    the point is that you attract long term contributors through GSoC

  476. Guus waves at vanitasvitae

  477. Guus

    jonasw: GSoC is certainly a risky investment, in that respect: you have to first invest a lot of your time, in order to perhaps get a good deal in the long term.

  478. zinid

    Guus: we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge

  479. zinid

    I'm very skeptical for GSoC

  480. Guus

    zinid, that's exactly why I mentioned that both students are still very active with us. One of them is even in this MUC, both are still submitting PRs to our projects.

  481. zinid

    Guus: lucky you 😁

  482. Guus

    but yes, it is somewhat of a gamble.

  483. Guus

    (but also great fun anyways)

  484. Guus

    But keeping people engaged is also something that we need to learn, as the XSF, or as individual projects.

  485. Guus

    you can't simply expect people to stick around.

  486. Guus

    It's why I like that the XSF invited these students to come to the summit and fosdem - I think that that's a good way to further bond, in a sense

  487. Guus

    simply showing appreciation (not just to students, but to everyone in the community), goes a long way towards keeping people engaged, active, and happy.

  488. lumi has joined

  489. Guus

    (and it need not cost anything)

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  491. Guus has the magic ability to bore everyone to sleep.

  492. Ge0rG


  493. Link Mauve

    Guus, I fully agree with that. :)

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  496. jonasw

    Guus, agreed (with the engegaedness thing, not the sleep thing)

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  535. Tobias

    SaltyBones, https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls

  536. Holger

    zinid: > we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge Didn't Badlop get involved via GSoC, originally?

  537. Tobias

    I think so

  538. zinid

    Holger, he was involved, but not via GSoC

  539. zinid

    he did GSoC later, being full-time contributor

  540. zinid

    so I'm not sure this is counted as "involved via GSoC"

  541. Holger

    zinid: Ah, I see.

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  544. SaltyBones

    Tobias, yep, thx, saw it!

  545. jonasw

    is that list sufficient to stay in the loop for that WG?

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  548. Tobias


  549. Tobias

    who knows if they are building more 'escape velocity' somewhere ;)

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  551. jonasw

    escape velocity?

  552. Tobias

    jonasw, https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cfrg/current/msg09467.html :)

  553. jonasw

    I see

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  555. jonasw

    hah, funny typo in the abstract of the draft (<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00>): > This document describes the architecture and requirements for the Messaging Layer Security (MLS) protocol. […] It is eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery.

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  563. moparisthebest


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  733. Zash

    Good morning. You have been talkative here.

  734. jonasw

    hi Zash

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  801. moparisthebest

    which one is the active one, the omara one, or https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00 ? or are they even different?

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  806. Flow

    moparisthebest, it appears one tries to draw a high level architecture picture (omara), while the other specifies the protocol in detail

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  808. moparisthebest

    is that the normal process for RFCs ?

  809. Flow

    moparisthebest, don't believe that there is any restriction for authors to split or not split their documents

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  811. Zash

    moparisthebest: Not uncommon

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