some people at this university want to establish some team chats, with the following requirements:
- instant messaging
- availability/presence status
- video chat
- desktop and mobile end devices
they already have XMPP in their mind. I’m afraid of the "video chats" requirement. Any suggestions what I tell them at the 15th?
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jonasw
I doubt there will be any funding to be made available, given that Matrix et al. could possibly be adopted without funding.
mathieui
video chat on all devices, I suppose?
jonasw
I guess.
Tobias
Jitsi?
jonasw
sorry, jitsi is completely horrible as day-to-day IM client
jonasw
(at least last time I checked, which was around 1.5 years ago)
Tobias
edhelas, does movim already do voice/video via webRTC?
Guus
Openfire comes with a plugin that installs the Jitsi Meet suite locally
jonasw
Guus, is there a client which can make use of that?
Guus
Jitsi Meet is a web client that does webrtc
jonasw
oh, that’s a web thing
jonasw
okay, that’s interesting
jonasw
what’s the deployment experience with that? does it work well?
Ge0rG
I wanted to set it up once, but it conflicted with my prosody.
Guus
Jitsi meet itself is pretty stable ( https://meet.jit.si ) - The Openfire installation of it has some quircks, but it's managable (notably, you _need_ a proper TLS certificate, and I'm lagging behind, version wise, a couple of months)
jonasw
who’s developing that?
jonasw
(jitsi-meet that is)
Ge0rG
And the documentation wasn't telling me how it's supposed to work, only what commands I should run to "make it work"
Guus
The jitsi team, now acquired by Atlassian.
Guus
With Openfire, you can set it up in two minutes (literally).
jonasw
that looks seriously neat
Guus
I'd actually love to get your feedback on the Openfire integration. It's primarily one guy and me that's building it, and still has rough edges.
jonasw
I haven’t looked at openfire, sorry, only at the meet.jit.si thing
jonasw
but that looks very polished
jonasw
being acquired by atlassian, I’d be worried they might drop XMPP?
mathieui
the only downside of jitsi meet is that while it uses a MUC, the chat is quite limited through the web interface
mathieui
(imo)
Guus
Well, I've had a discussion with them about that. I believe that the are underutilizing XMPP, and could have a better integration, from a XMPP point of view. Their project lead pointed out that he was aware, but that their goal is not to build a strictly XMPP-optimized solution. Instead, they want to build a highly performant web-based video confernence solution.
Guus
XMPP is just a tool for them, not an end goal
Ge0rG
the chat features demand of a web-video-conf is rather low
jonasw
Guus, so they’re going to ditch XMPP as soon as it is more convenient.
jonasw
the only way to make that less convenient is by having great interoperating clients.
Guus
jonasw, no - their setup is heavily integrated with XMPP
Ge0rG
We really need modern and usable mobile and desktop clients
Ge0rG
A dozen of half-clients don't count.
jonasw
Ge0rG, pay me
Guus
but I'm not sure if they'd manage interop with other clients than their own, for the audio/video bit (most of it is Jingle based though, so it might actually work - and they're very happy to work with the community and add features/changes, as long as it's not conflicting with their interests of course.
jonasw
Guus, okay
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jonasw
I heard rumors of a Jitsi-Meet-Integration with Spark, is that a thing yet?
Ge0rG
jonasw: I offered you a job already, just not XMPP related ;) Maybe it does pay well enough to work half-time and to have the rest of the time for XMPP :P
Guus
but yeah, get yourself a host, disable the firewall for starters, install openfire, install a proper certificate, install the ofmeet and offocus plugins, done.
jonasw
Ge0rG, I’m already just going to work 75% in my job; right now I’ve got masterthesis and other things on my plate though.
Guus
jonasw: almost, but it's not what you expect. We simply open the web view in a browser in Spark :)
jonasw
Guus, that’s already a good start, if it provides a good flow from "we’re in a MUC, but we need a video/voicechat to discuss things now"
Ge0rG
jonasw: personally, I can't afford to pay somebody to do the work I'd gladly do myself if I had time.
jonasw
Ge0rG, heh
jonasw
Ge0rG, point is, I think most a are painfully aware of the issues.
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Ge0rG
jonasw: it was even discussed at the summit, but I didn't get the conclusion, if there was one.
jonasw
I don’t recall either
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Ge0rG
jonasw: maybe we should reduce fragmentation and focus our efforts. Stop writing JabberCat and help out making Gajim Great Again.
jonasw
stop writing yaxim and implement video chat in conversations.
Ge0rG
jonasw: yaxim came first :P
Guus
jonasw: I certainly would love your feedback on the Openfire / jitsi meet integration bit
Guus
give it a try if you've got like half an hour to play.
jonasw
Guus, I’m still looking for an openfire-docker-thing
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Guus
jonasw, surevine might have one, but there's no official one from us
Guus
we do have .deb, .rpm and .exe installers - or you can build from source.
jonasw
I’m asking for docker specifically because I can do that in travis-ci without hassle
jonasw
(and having it would make it easier to play around locally indeed)
Guus
I don't have one, sorry :)
jonasw
regarding testing jitsi meet+openfire, if it requires a working TLS cert, I’m not sure how that’ll work in half an hour ;-)
Guus
letsencrypt/
Guus
?
jonasw
but that requires me to do that on an internet-reachable server
Guus
(also, the cert requirement will be dropped again after we are able to fix an internal issue)
Link Mauve
Guus, I do want to make existing desktop clients interop with Jitsi Meet.
Link Mauve
For now just in one to one, so not with Jitsi Meet, but MUC video is part of a longer term plan.
Guus
jonasw: well, you can do a self-signed one, but then your browser will need to recognize it
jonasw
does it need to do that beforehands, or can I simply accept it when it asks for it?
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: in which client do you want to make that happen?
Guus
jonasw, also, if you disable all encryption in Openfire, it'll work - not something you want to do outside of a local setup, obviously.
jonasw
ah okay
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, probably Gajim first, since it already has good Gstreamer integration.
jonasw
I’ll just do that I guess :>
Link Mauve
Also to get up to speed with Gstreamer personally.
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: I was frightened for a moment you could say "poezio"
Link Mauve
:D
Guus
Link Mauve: that'd be great. As I said, we'll integrate the Meet web client in Spark, which is a start. Proper integration would be better!
jonasw
Link Mauve, come over and do it in Jabbercat. We’ve got Qt and the chromium engine. WebRTC for free!
jonasw
Ge0rG, libaa!
Link Mauve
jonasw, the idea is exactly to add interoperability between desktop and web, not just web. :p
jonasw
Link Mauve, that’s still desktop?
Link Mauve
jonasw, as in, using jitsi-videobridge to make Gstreamer clients talk with WebRTC clients seamlessly.
jonasw
can’t you talk webrtc from any client?
Ge0rG
jonasw: libcaca please.
jonasw
Ge0rG, does libcaca have a sweet demo like bb?
Ge0rG
jonasw: dunno, but you can mplayer the matrix trailer with it
Ge0rG
and there is an awesome visualized called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.✎
Ge0rG
and there is an awesome visualizer called "cacaball". I'm not kidding. ✏
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zinid
Ge0rG: what's wrong with mobile clients?
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zinid
I agree desktop clients suck
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Ge0rG
zinid: Conversations is okay, minus voip/video. The others all suck.
Ge0rG
zinid: especially on iOS
zinid
Ge0rG: ah, iOS, right
Ge0rG
zinid: the situation on other platforms is even worse, but fortunately nobody expects that any more.
zinid
Ge0rG: you can always suppress your ego and join conversations team 😁
Ge0rG
zinid: I'd use all my time to keep up with the changes in the code base and couldn't contribute anyway.
zinid
I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now
Ge0rG
zinid: I'm not sure what you are talking about.
zinid
Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project
Link Mauve
“10:12:28 jonasw> can’t you talk webrtc from any client?”, Gstreamer doesn’t support everything yet AFAIK, although I’m not fully sure what’s still missing.
zinid
Especially if it's superior
Link Mauve
But jitsi-videobridge integration will be needed anyway for MUC video, so why not start with that.
Ge0rG
> Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project
tell that to daniel :P
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zinid
Ge0rG: so you're just fulfilling your ego and now cry why we don't have mobile clients?
Ge0rG
zinid: I have contributed code to conversations, I have tested and reported a number of bugs on the iOS clients. I really don't know what you want from me now.
zinid
Ge0rG: VoIP stuff 😀
Ge0rG
zinid: not gonna happen
zinid
Ge0rG: why? Ego again?
Link Mauve
jonasw, Ge0rG, nowadays we have 256 colours available (some terminals even support 24-bit, but ncurses doesn’t), we don’t need terrible things like libcaca anymore. :p
Guus
have you guys tried the IOS client from Tigase? They showed it to me at FOSDEM briefly. Looked nice enough
Link Mauve
See poezio’s gorgeous avatar display. ^^
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zinid
Link Mauve: which doesn't work
Guus
(I don't have an iPhone, so I've not really played with it though)
Link Mauve
Works for me.
Ge0rG
Guus: IIRC I enrolled for the beta test a year ago, but then was disappointed that there is no bug tracker to report into
daniel
> I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now
This 'client a is not written in my favorite programming language / ui toolkit thus I really need to start my own from scratch' is one of the reasons we don't have a lot of good clients.
Ge0rG
zinid: as opposed to you, I'm not driven by my ego :P I just know the insanity that awaits me, should I start writing VoIP/video code
Ge0rG
daniel: but it's the reasons we have *a lot* of clients!
zinid
Ge0rG: ah, so you're just a pussy 😁
jonasw
daniel, the reason for that though is that we only have free-time developers.
Ge0rG
daniel: and out of all people, *you* shouldn't complain about client diversity :P
Ge0rG
zinid: and you are a dick. So what's the problem, let's do it quick!
jonasw
lol
zinid
Rammstein?
jonasw
TIL the ejabberd-MUC has an avatar
Ge0rG
zinid: the fact that you recognized that just added a sympathy point to your score.
Guus
damnit, zinid stole my sympathy point!
zinid
daniel: but in Android you have the same language and toolkit lol 😁
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Ge0rG
jonasw: we only have free-time CADT developers... https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
zinid
Ge0rG: what about funding? How much can we collect per month?
Ge0rG
zinid: who is "we" and what do we want to collect for?
zinid
Ge0rG: we - the xmpp community
zinid
Collect for the salary
Ge0rG
zinid: the XSF is collecting some amount of money. Last time I checked, there was strict opposition against collecting money to fund development of a single client.
Ge0rG
zinid: it is easy to f*ck this up: assumed we have funding for one or two developers, how are we going to distribute that?
zinid
Ge0rG: why? We can leave donors to control the development depending on their money contribution, matrix does this
Ge0rG
should we give the money to daniel because he's writing the best Android client, or maybe to me because it's good to have alternatives? To JC for improving the web client? To lovetox for Gajim? To somebody else?
Ge0rG
zinid: the XSF is "vendor neutral", so it can't really solve this problem
zinid
Ge0rG: well, we should collect applications then donors will decide
zinid
We can create JSF as you suggested
Ge0rG
zinid: but then again the JSF will be vendor-neutral as well and have the exact same problem!
zinid
Ge0rG: what problem?
Ge0rG
zinid: with Matrix, there was THE client, and then they switched from THE matrix client to riot.im, by whatever mechanism they used to decide that riot is better now
Ge0rG
zinid: the XSF is lacking volunteers even for the regular tasks we have. There is nobody left to run another Org
zinid
Ge0rG: actually they have the neat patreon policy: you can control the development if you contribute some decent amount
Ge0rG
zinid: that's great. So now they are owned by this one big crypto money scam org?
zinid
Ge0rG: then we can just open patreon project and will control the development via bugtracker
zinid
So no org is required
mathieui
depends if you want accountability or not
Ge0rG
zinid: yes. Please create a patreon project, invite developers of different XMPP clients and let them define tasks and prices, then go out and collect funds
zinid
Ge0rG: what's wrong if the project will be aquired?
jonasw
patreon might not be the right thing for this
jonasw
but the general concept probably applies
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zinid
Ge0rG: I'm actually asking here on purpose, if there are people wanting to contribute
Ge0rG
zinid: to contribute money? I'm not sure you'll find anyone in here.
jonasw
I’m not sure what tax implications it’d have. I’m also pretty sure that I’d have to run that by my employer, which feels to be too much hassle.
zinid
Ge0rG: here - in the XSF
Ge0rG
jonasw: giving or taking?
zinid
Ge0rG: nobody, really?
Guus
I actually think that it's not a bad idea if the XSF helps individual people to sign up for Patreon or similar things
Ge0rG
Guus: is it something the developers can't do on their own?
zinid
What, even 10$/month is a terrible burden for an XSF member?
jonasw
Ge0rG, taking
jonasw
giving is trivial
Guus
actually, https://converse.js lists both Patreon and LiberaPay on its website. Everyone can start with contributing to that.
jonasw
zinid, if we shuffle funds around inside the XSF, I’m not sure that’ll help in any way
Guus
Ge0rG: devs _can_ do that on theirselves, but everything is hard if you don't know how to do it. Simple guides can go a long way.
Ge0rG
jonasw: regarding taking: it's a secondary source of income that you need to income-tax. You need to make a tax declaration at the end of the year and pay something between 0 and 40% of it back
jonasw
okay, I’ll have to make tax declarations starting next year anyways.
Ge0rG
Guus: I've never interacted with patreon. Is there some kind of tag system where we can group all xmpp developers?
jonasw
so that is not overhead which counts
jonasw
but employer things would be annoying.
jonasw
(not that annoying probably)
Ge0rG
jonasw: IIUC you only need to tell your employer, not ask them.
jonasw
yeah, probably
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jonasw
damn, I didn’t consider I’ll have to file taxes now anyways. I might as well give it a shot the.n
SaltyBones
I would be curious which features users even want.
Guus
boom, I've just pledged to converse.js. Now you guys.
SaltyBones
Is it "just work better" or "vidcalling" or "moar crypto"?
zinid
Guus: there are two problems with existing project: they cannot attract donors and the quality is mostly shit, sadly
Guus
Ge0rG: I don't know.
jonasw
SaltyBones, all of the three
jonasw
with "moar crypto" breaking the other two
Guus
zinid, you were telling people to pay developers to allow them to improve quality. Converse.JS lets you do that.
jonasw
Ge0rG, we could make a page on xmpp.org where ways to support XMPP clients are listed
jonasw: I'd love to have that, but I suppose we need some open and egalitarian process to enroll developers, so that we don't violate our "vendor neutrality"
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jonasw
Ge0rG, add a field to the client list, boom done.
Ge0rG
jonasw: I'd like to have another field in the client list: a short description
Guus
what other xmpp projects have Patreon-like pages?
Ge0rG
and a logo
jonasw
Ge0rG, do that
jonasw
logo is a good idea actually
Guus
I'd be happy to spend a few bucks/month on several
jonasw
we can base64 that and have the python stuff put it in an image directory automatically
zinid
Guus: still, the first problem remains. That's why I asked if XSF members can contribute, that will be a great start
jonasw
Guus, conversations maybe?
jonasw
Guus, you’re tempting me to set up liberapay just now ;)
Guus
jonasw: I buy conversations, the client.
jonasw
ah
jonasw
good :)
Guus
jonasw, seriously, go for it.
jonasw
(I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP client developers is going to be a good thing)✎
jonasw
(I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP developers is going to be a good thing) ✏
SaltyBones
hm...can you gift something to people on the app store?
Ge0rG
SaltyBones: no :(
SaltyBones
There are still a few people whom I would like to be able to reach with conversations...
SaltyBones
bummer
daniel
i'd try to come up with actual business models instead of relying on donations
Guus
jonasw: the idea is that non-members also make use of it. :)
Ge0rG
daniel: don't you have one already?
SaltyBones
daniel, is there a way to have vouchers or something?
Guus
daniel, obviously. But every bit helps, right?
daniel
Ge0rG, yes. that's why i'm recommending that approach over donations
jonasw
SaltyBones, sadly, the only way may be to wait for the next offer. I was lucky that C was free around the holidays.
Ge0rGhas a business model where another app he develops pays for the time to work on yaxim.
Link Mauve
Guus, Gajim has three options here: https://gajim.org/dev.php
SaltyBones
jonasw, what I'm saying is, I bought it and I would buy it for other people to support daniel and get them to use it...
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jonasw
SaltyBones, I see
jonasw
(my issue was that family doesn’t have any payment info associated with their google account)
daniel
Guus, sure. that wasn't a comment on you pledging towards converse.js. that was just a general statement on the 'how can we fund xmpp clients' discussion
zinid
What's wrong with donations? Even if we fail to init a project we can always give the money to some existing project depending on elections
Ge0rG
when you buy Conversations on Google Play, Google will keep 30%, and Merkel will keep some ~30% as well. It's better to meet Daniel and spend him a beer ;)
jonasw
except beer ;-)
Ge0rG
a beverage.
SaltyBones
Maybe I'll try getting a play store gift card and see if that works...
daniel
Ge0rG, i love beverages. but beverages don't pay for rent
daniel
at least i never tried that…
Guus
if anyone is interested, maybe create a wiki page that links to all donation pages of XMPP projects?
zinid
Since it's supposed to have a lot of donors, the elections supposed to be fair enough
Ge0rG
daniel: depends on your landlord. If you can make them drunk every time they want your money... :P
Guus
Daniel: depends on the land...whathesaid
Ge0rG
Guus: that's a sensible approach as well. Maybe we should ask the Board whether adding links to donation pages would be appropriate for the client/server software lists?
Guus
Ge0rG: wouldn't be the worst of ideas
zinid
Guus: the point is to find a single important task and donate, that is iOS or desktop client, and if we just list all the projects this will not accumulate a lot of money within a particular project
Ge0rG
zinid: so who is going to choose which client gets featured, then?
daniel
zinid, i feel like at least some of the client developers wouldn't even want to work full time on their projects
Guus
zinid, you're right - but it does help, and could be a first step that we could do _today_. We can always do different things too.
zinid
Ge0rG: polling
SaltyBones
Ge0rG, could you create a PR with logos?
jonasw
if I’m gonna work full-time on a client, it needs to be a safe employment; I couldn’t quit my job only to find that two months later, the client doesn’t pay enough anymore.
zinid
daniel: I think there will be some who will 😁
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jonasw
Ge0rG, SaltyBones, if you do a PR with the logos as base64 inside the json or as files in an appropriate structure below content and refereneces to the file names in the JSON, I’ll take care of the rest of the templating/python magic
zinid
jonasw: yeah, that's the problem
Ge0rG
jonasw: SVG or PNG? What resolution(s)?
Ge0rG
zinid: never trust a poll you didn't manipulate yourself!
daniel
creating a business is always risky. i think i spend like at least two years working full time on Conversations before i made any significant amount of money from it
goffi
daniel: if there is not secret, how do you make most of your money ? With support ?
SaltyBones
daniel, convince some of your clients that they really want vidcalling ;)
zinid
Ge0rG: wut?
SaltyBones
or maybe jonasw tell your university to hire daniel to add it! ;)
Ge0rG
zinid: see, there is money involved. People will try to cheat your poll so they end up receiving the money.
zinid
Ge0rG: the elections will be forged? 😀
jonasw
Ge0rG, whatever you find. SVG is fine, PNG would be safer though.
Ge0rG
zinid: you know how it works from your state elections :P
zinid
Ge0rG: how is that when only donors can poll?
jonasw
SaltyBones, I doubt they’ll want to pay a lot for that communication thing. otherwise I’ll be recommending daniel as consultant for sure.
SaltyBones
jonasw, try to convince them!
Ge0rG
zinid: So what you propose is that instead of just funding what they want, people are supposed to make a collective, put together significant money and then have a majority decide what that money will be spent on?
jonasw
SaltyBones, hah...
SaltyBones
It's usually not their money..
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Ge0rG
jonasw: you just need to find some source of money and redirect accordingly.
zinid
Ge0rG: majority? Everyone can poll
Ge0rG
zinid: you are contradicting yourself.
zinid
Ge0rG: amongst donors
zinid
Ge0rG: you just don't get it
Ge0rG
zinid: indeed, I'm not getting it.
daniel
SaltyBones, i think at this point any money is better invested in a decent desktop client
zinid
Ge0rG: every donor can poll on the project selection, nobody else
daniel
because i'm actually doing ok and Conversations is good enough for now
zinid
daniel: still iOS left
zinid
And probably even more important imho
Guus
Daniel, kudos for that. Not everyone is gracious enough to say "i've got enough, give it to others".
Ge0rG
daniel: you could start Conversations/Web now. Or Conversations/W32!
daniel
zinid, probably. in any case *not Conversations*. is my point
zinid
daniel: and not ejabberd, so what? 😀
Ge0rG
Guus: I have also arrived at a point where it's not reasonable for me to accept funding, unless it's either at my employer's business consulting rate ($$$) or if it's on the order sufficient to buy a yacht.
daniel
Ge0rG: that be really stupid. If anything I'd contribute to dino or converse or what ever
Ge0rG
daniel: but the network effect!!1
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Link Mauve
daniel, I contribute to these two, with time though, not money.
Link Mauve
If only we could pool time as easily as we do money.
Ge0rG
I contribute too! By yelling at the developers in their ticket systems!
Guus
Link Mauve: I suspect that many projects prefer time over money. I'd love to have devs for Spark, for instance - that badly needs a lot of work.
Ge0rG
Guus: the challenge is to find somebody who can actually reduce your workload, not increase it.
Guus
Ge0rG: indeed. Which is why I like GSoC, but that's a future investment (and somewhat risky, if you ignore the 'its-also-fun-to-do' bit)
jonasw
my third-party perspective on GSoC is that it rarely turns out really useful for the involved projects; is that false?
Guus
You know what - I think I'm going to blog a call-for-help for Spark devs. Most of our users are corporate. There's bound to be a few that have Devs
Guus
jonasw: I have one year experience. Two of the two students that I was working with last year were at the summit and fosdem.
jonasw
but was the code useful?
Guus
yes, but that's not the point.
jonasw
but that was my question :)
jonasw
(in response to what Ge0rG said about "not increasing your workload")
Guus
The code that a student produces during GSoC can be created by a mentor in the same time it takes to mentor the student.
Guus
the point is that you attract long term contributors through GSoC
Guuswaves at vanitasvitae
Guus
jonasw: GSoC is certainly a risky investment, in that respect: you have to first invest a lot of your time, in order to perhaps get a good deal in the long term.
zinid
Guus: we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge
zinid
I'm very skeptical for GSoC
Guus
zinid, that's exactly why I mentioned that both students are still very active with us. One of them is even in this MUC, both are still submitting PRs to our projects.
zinid
Guus: lucky you 😁
Guus
but yes, it is somewhat of a gamble.
Guus
(but also great fun anyways)
Guus
But keeping people engaged is also something that we need to learn, as the XSF, or as individual projects.
Guus
you can't simply expect people to stick around.
Guus
It's why I like that the XSF invited these students to come to the summit and fosdem - I think that that's a good way to further bond, in a sense
Guus
simply showing appreciation (not just to students, but to everyone in the community), goes a long way towards keeping people engaged, active, and happy.
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Guus
(and it need not cost anything)
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Guushas the magic ability to bore everyone to sleep.
Ge0rG
*zZZzzZZZzzzZ*
Link Mauve
Guus, I fully agree with that. :)
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jonasw
Guus, agreed (with the engegaedness thing, not the sleep thing)
hah, funny typo in the abstract of the draft (<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00>):
> This document describes the architecture and requirements for the Messaging Layer Security (MLS) protocol. […] It is eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery.
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moparisthebest
OR WAS IT A TYPO
moparisthebestdons tinfoil hat
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Zash
Good morning. You have been talkative here.
jonasw
hi Zash
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moparisthebest
which one is the active one, the omara one, or https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00 ? or are they even different?
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Flow
moparisthebest, it appears one tries to draw a high level architecture picture (omara), while the other specifies the protocol in detail
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moparisthebest
is that the normal process for RFCs ?
Flow
moparisthebest, don't believe that there is any restriction for authors to split or not split their documents