jonaswsome people at this university want to establish some team chats, with the following requirements:
- instant messaging
- availability/presence status
- video chat
- desktop and mobile end devices
they already have XMPP in their mind. I’m afraid of the "video chats" requirement. Any suggestions what I tell them at the 15th?
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jonaswI doubt there will be any funding to be made available, given that Matrix et al. could possibly be adopted without funding.
mathieuivideo chat on all devices, I suppose?
jonaswI guess.
TobiasJitsi?
jonaswsorry, jitsi is completely horrible as day-to-day IM client
jonasw(at least last time I checked, which was around 1.5 years ago)
Tobiasedhelas, does movim already do voice/video via webRTC?
GuusOpenfire comes with a plugin that installs the Jitsi Meet suite locally
jonaswGuus, is there a client which can make use of that?
GuusJitsi Meet is a web client that does webrtc
jonaswoh, that’s a web thing
jonaswokay, that’s interesting
jonaswwhat’s the deployment experience with that? does it work well?
Ge0rGI wanted to set it up once, but it conflicted with my prosody.
GuusJitsi meet itself is pretty stable ( https://meet.jit.si ) - The Openfire installation of it has some quircks, but it's managable (notably, you _need_ a proper TLS certificate, and I'm lagging behind, version wise, a couple of months)
jonaswwho’s developing that?
jonasw(jitsi-meet that is)
Ge0rGAnd the documentation wasn't telling me how it's supposed to work, only what commands I should run to "make it work"
GuusThe jitsi team, now acquired by Atlassian.
GuusWith Openfire, you can set it up in two minutes (literally).
jonaswthat looks seriously neat
GuusI'd actually love to get your feedback on the Openfire integration. It's primarily one guy and me that's building it, and still has rough edges.
jonaswI haven’t looked at openfire, sorry, only at the meet.jit.si thing
jonaswbut that looks very polished
jonaswbeing acquired by atlassian, I’d be worried they might drop XMPP?
mathieuithe only downside of jitsi meet is that while it uses a MUC, the chat is quite limited through the web interface
mathieui(imo)
GuusWell, I've had a discussion with them about that. I believe that the are underutilizing XMPP, and could have a better integration, from a XMPP point of view. Their project lead pointed out that he was aware, but that their goal is not to build a strictly XMPP-optimized solution. Instead, they want to build a highly performant web-based video confernence solution.
GuusXMPP is just a tool for them, not an end goal
Ge0rGthe chat features demand of a web-video-conf is rather low
jonaswGuus, so they’re going to ditch XMPP as soon as it is more convenient.
jonaswthe only way to make that less convenient is by having great interoperating clients.
Guusjonasw, no - their setup is heavily integrated with XMPP
Ge0rGWe really need modern and usable mobile and desktop clients
Ge0rGA dozen of half-clients don't count.
jonaswGe0rG, pay me
Guusbut I'm not sure if they'd manage interop with other clients than their own, for the audio/video bit (most of it is Jingle based though, so it might actually work - and they're very happy to work with the community and add features/changes, as long as it's not conflicting with their interests of course.
jonaswGuus, okay
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jonaswI heard rumors of a Jitsi-Meet-Integration with Spark, is that a thing yet?
Ge0rGjonasw: I offered you a job already, just not XMPP related ;) Maybe it does pay well enough to work half-time and to have the rest of the time for XMPP :P
Guusbut yeah, get yourself a host, disable the firewall for starters, install openfire, install a proper certificate, install the ofmeet and offocus plugins, done.
jonaswGe0rG, I’m already just going to work 75% in my job; right now I’ve got masterthesis and other things on my plate though.
Guusjonasw: almost, but it's not what you expect. We simply open the web view in a browser in Spark :)
jonaswGuus, that’s already a good start, if it provides a good flow from "we’re in a MUC, but we need a video/voicechat to discuss things now"
Ge0rGjonasw: personally, I can't afford to pay somebody to do the work I'd gladly do myself if I had time.
jonaswGe0rG, heh
jonaswGe0rG, point is, I think most a are painfully aware of the issues.
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Ge0rGjonasw: it was even discussed at the summit, but I didn't get the conclusion, if there was one.
jonaswI don’t recall either
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Ge0rGjonasw: maybe we should reduce fragmentation and focus our efforts. Stop writing JabberCat and help out making Gajim Great Again.
jonaswstop writing yaxim and implement video chat in conversations.
Ge0rGjonasw: yaxim came first :P
Guusjonasw: I certainly would love your feedback on the Openfire / jitsi meet integration bit
Guusgive it a try if you've got like half an hour to play.
jonaswGuus, I’m still looking for an openfire-docker-thing
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Guusjonasw, surevine might have one, but there's no official one from us
Guuswe do have .deb, .rpm and .exe installers - or you can build from source.
jonaswI’m asking for docker specifically because I can do that in travis-ci without hassle
jonasw(and having it would make it easier to play around locally indeed)
GuusI don't have one, sorry :)
jonaswregarding testing jitsi meet+openfire, if it requires a working TLS cert, I’m not sure how that’ll work in half an hour ;-)
Guusletsencrypt/
Guus?
jonaswbut that requires me to do that on an internet-reachable server
Guus(also, the cert requirement will be dropped again after we are able to fix an internal issue)
Link MauveGuus, I do want to make existing desktop clients interop with Jitsi Meet.
Link MauveFor now just in one to one, so not with Jitsi Meet, but MUC video is part of a longer term plan.
Guusjonasw: well, you can do a self-signed one, but then your browser will need to recognize it
jonaswdoes it need to do that beforehands, or can I simply accept it when it asks for it?
Ge0rGLink Mauve: in which client do you want to make that happen?
Guusjonasw, also, if you disable all encryption in Openfire, it'll work - not something you want to do outside of a local setup, obviously.
jonaswah okay
Link MauveGe0rG, probably Gajim first, since it already has good Gstreamer integration.
jonaswI’ll just do that I guess :>
Link MauveAlso to get up to speed with Gstreamer personally.
Ge0rGLink Mauve: I was frightened for a moment you could say "poezio"
Link Mauve:D
GuusLink Mauve: that'd be great. As I said, we'll integrate the Meet web client in Spark, which is a start. Proper integration would be better!
jonaswLink Mauve, come over and do it in Jabbercat. We’ve got Qt and the chromium engine. WebRTC for free!
jonaswGe0rG, libaa!
Link Mauvejonasw, the idea is exactly to add interoperability between desktop and web, not just web. :p
jonaswLink Mauve, that’s still desktop?
Link Mauvejonasw, as in, using jitsi-videobridge to make Gstreamer clients talk with WebRTC clients seamlessly.
jonaswcan’t you talk webrtc from any client?
Ge0rGjonasw: libcaca please.
jonaswGe0rG, does libcaca have a sweet demo like bb?
Ge0rGjonasw: dunno, but you can mplayer the matrix trailer with it
Ge0rGand there is an awesome visualized called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.
Ge0rGand there is an awesome visualizer called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.
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zinidGe0rG: what's wrong with mobile clients?
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zinidI agree desktop clients suck
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Ge0rGzinid: Conversations is okay, minus voip/video. The others all suck.
Ge0rGzinid: especially on iOS
zinidGe0rG: ah, iOS, right
Ge0rGzinid: the situation on other platforms is even worse, but fortunately nobody expects that any more.
zinidGe0rG: you can always suppress your ego and join conversations team 😁
Ge0rGzinid: I'd use all my time to keep up with the changes in the code base and couldn't contribute anyway.
zinidI really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now
Ge0rGzinid: I'm not sure what you are talking about.
zinidGe0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project
Link Mauve“10:12:28 jonasw> can’t you talk webrtc from any client?”, Gstreamer doesn’t support everything yet AFAIK, although I’m not fully sure what’s still missing.
zinidEspecially if it's superior
Link MauveBut jitsi-videobridge integration will be needed anyway for MUC video, so why not start with that.
Ge0rG> Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project
tell that to daniel :P
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zinidGe0rG: so you're just fulfilling your ego and now cry why we don't have mobile clients?
Ge0rGzinid: I have contributed code to conversations, I have tested and reported a number of bugs on the iOS clients. I really don't know what you want from me now.
zinidGe0rG: VoIP stuff 😀
Ge0rGzinid: not gonna happen
zinidGe0rG: why? Ego again?
Link Mauvejonasw, Ge0rG, nowadays we have 256 colours available (some terminals even support 24-bit, but ncurses doesn’t), we don’t need terrible things like libcaca anymore. :p
Guushave you guys tried the IOS client from Tigase? They showed it to me at FOSDEM briefly. Looked nice enough
Link MauveSee poezio’s gorgeous avatar display. ^^
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zinidLink Mauve: which doesn't work
Guus(I don't have an iPhone, so I've not really played with it though)
Link MauveWorks for me.
Ge0rGGuus: IIRC I enrolled for the beta test a year ago, but then was disappointed that there is no bug tracker to report into
daniel> I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now
This 'client a is not written in my favorite programming language / ui toolkit thus I really need to start my own from scratch' is one of the reasons we don't have a lot of good clients.
Ge0rGzinid: as opposed to you, I'm not driven by my ego :P I just know the insanity that awaits me, should I start writing VoIP/video code
Ge0rGdaniel: but it's the reasons we have *a lot* of clients!
zinidGe0rG: ah, so you're just a pussy 😁
jonaswdaniel, the reason for that though is that we only have free-time developers.
Ge0rGdaniel: and out of all people, *you* shouldn't complain about client diversity :P
Ge0rGzinid: and you are a dick. So what's the problem, let's do it quick!
jonaswlol
zinidRammstein?
jonaswTIL the ejabberd-MUC has an avatar
Ge0rGzinid: the fact that you recognized that just added a sympathy point to your score.
Guusdamnit, zinid stole my sympathy point!
ziniddaniel: but in Android you have the same language and toolkit lol 😁
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Ge0rGjonasw: we only have free-time CADT developers... https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
zinidGe0rG: what about funding? How much can we collect per month?
Ge0rGzinid: who is "we" and what do we want to collect for?
zinidGe0rG: we - the xmpp community
zinidCollect for the salary
Ge0rGzinid: the XSF is collecting some amount of money. Last time I checked, there was strict opposition against collecting money to fund development of a single client.
Ge0rGzinid: it is easy to f*ck this up: assumed we have funding for one or two developers, how are we going to distribute that?
zinidGe0rG: why? We can leave donors to control the development depending on their money contribution, matrix does this
Ge0rGshould we give the money to daniel because he's writing the best Android client, or maybe to me because it's good to have alternatives? To JC for improving the web client? To lovetox for Gajim? To somebody else?
Ge0rGzinid: the XSF is "vendor neutral", so it can't really solve this problem
zinidGe0rG: well, we should collect applications then donors will decide
zinidWe can create JSF as you suggested
Ge0rGzinid: but then again the JSF will be vendor-neutral as well and have the exact same problem!
zinidGe0rG: what problem?
Ge0rGzinid: with Matrix, there was THE client, and then they switched from THE matrix client to riot.im, by whatever mechanism they used to decide that riot is better now
Ge0rGzinid: the XSF is lacking volunteers even for the regular tasks we have. There is nobody left to run another Org
zinidGe0rG: actually they have the neat patreon policy: you can control the development if you contribute some decent amount
Ge0rGzinid: that's great. So now they are owned by this one big crypto money scam org?
zinidGe0rG: then we can just open patreon project and will control the development via bugtracker
zinidSo no org is required
mathieuidepends if you want accountability or not
Ge0rGzinid: yes. Please create a patreon project, invite developers of different XMPP clients and let them define tasks and prices, then go out and collect funds
zinidGe0rG: what's wrong if the project will be aquired?
jonaswpatreon might not be the right thing for this
jonaswbut the general concept probably applies
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zinidGe0rG: I'm actually asking here on purpose, if there are people wanting to contribute
Ge0rGzinid: to contribute money? I'm not sure you'll find anyone in here.
jonaswI’m not sure what tax implications it’d have. I’m also pretty sure that I’d have to run that by my employer, which feels to be too much hassle.
zinidGe0rG: here - in the XSF
Ge0rGjonasw: giving or taking?
zinidGe0rG: nobody, really?
GuusI actually think that it's not a bad idea if the XSF helps individual people to sign up for Patreon or similar things
Ge0rGGuus: is it something the developers can't do on their own?
zinidWhat, even 10$/month is a terrible burden for an XSF member?
jonaswGe0rG, taking
jonaswgiving is trivial
Guusactually, https://converse.js lists both Patreon and LiberaPay on its website. Everyone can start with contributing to that.
jonaswzinid, if we shuffle funds around inside the XSF, I’m not sure that’ll help in any way
GuusGe0rG: devs _can_ do that on theirselves, but everything is hard if you don't know how to do it. Simple guides can go a long way.
Ge0rGjonasw: regarding taking: it's a secondary source of income that you need to income-tax. You need to make a tax declaration at the end of the year and pay something between 0 and 40% of it back
jonaswokay, I’ll have to make tax declarations starting next year anyways.
Ge0rGGuus: I've never interacted with patreon. Is there some kind of tag system where we can group all xmpp developers?
jonaswso that is not overhead which counts
jonaswbut employer things would be annoying.
jonasw(not that annoying probably)
Ge0rGjonasw: IIUC you only need to tell your employer, not ask them.
jonaswyeah, probably
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jonaswdamn, I didn’t consider I’ll have to file taxes now anyways. I might as well give it a shot the.n
SaltyBonesI would be curious which features users even want.
Guusboom, I've just pledged to converse.js. Now you guys.
SaltyBonesIs it "just work better" or "vidcalling" or "moar crypto"?
zinidGuus: there are two problems with existing project: they cannot attract donors and the quality is mostly shit, sadly
GuusGe0rG: I don't know.
jonaswSaltyBones, all of the three
jonaswwith "moar crypto" breaking the other two
Guuszinid, you were telling people to pay developers to allow them to improve quality. Converse.JS lets you do that.
jonaswGe0rG, we could make a page on xmpp.org where ways to support XMPP clients are listed
Ge0rGjonasw: I'd love to have that, but I suppose we need some open and egalitarian process to enroll developers, so that we don't violate our "vendor neutrality"
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jonaswGe0rG, add a field to the client list, boom done.
Ge0rGjonasw: I'd like to have another field in the client list: a short description
Guuswhat other xmpp projects have Patreon-like pages?
Ge0rGand a logo
jonaswGe0rG, do that
jonaswlogo is a good idea actually
GuusI'd be happy to spend a few bucks/month on several
jonaswwe can base64 that and have the python stuff put it in an image directory automatically
zinidGuus: still, the first problem remains. That's why I asked if XSF members can contribute, that will be a great start
jonaswGuus, conversations maybe?
jonaswGuus, you’re tempting me to set up liberapay just now ;)
Guusjonasw: I buy conversations, the client.
jonaswah
jonaswgood :)
Guusjonasw, seriously, go for it.
jonasw(I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP client developers is going to be a good thing)
jonasw(I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP developers is going to be a good thing)
SaltyBoneshm...can you gift something to people on the app store?
Ge0rGSaltyBones: no :(
SaltyBonesThere are still a few people whom I would like to be able to reach with conversations...
SaltyBonesbummer
danieli'd try to come up with actual business models instead of relying on donations
Guusjonasw: the idea is that non-members also make use of it. :)
Ge0rGdaniel: don't you have one already?
SaltyBonesdaniel, is there a way to have vouchers or something?
Guusdaniel, obviously. But every bit helps, right?
danielGe0rG, yes. that's why i'm recommending that approach over donations
jonaswSaltyBones, sadly, the only way may be to wait for the next offer. I was lucky that C was free around the holidays.
Ge0rGhas a business model where another app he develops pays for the time to work on yaxim.
Link MauveGuus, Gajim has three options here: https://gajim.org/dev.php
SaltyBonesjonasw, what I'm saying is, I bought it and I would buy it for other people to support daniel and get them to use it...
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jonaswSaltyBones, I see
jonasw(my issue was that family doesn’t have any payment info associated with their google account)
danielGuus, sure. that wasn't a comment on you pledging towards converse.js. that was just a general statement on the 'how can we fund xmpp clients' discussion
zinidWhat's wrong with donations? Even if we fail to init a project we can always give the money to some existing project depending on elections
Ge0rGwhen you buy Conversations on Google Play, Google will keep 30%, and Merkel will keep some ~30% as well. It's better to meet Daniel and spend him a beer ;)
jonaswexcept beer ;-)
Ge0rGa beverage.
SaltyBonesMaybe I'll try getting a play store gift card and see if that works...
danielGe0rG, i love beverages. but beverages don't pay for rent
danielat least i never tried that…
Guusif anyone is interested, maybe create a wiki page that links to all donation pages of XMPP projects?
zinidSince it's supposed to have a lot of donors, the elections supposed to be fair enough
Ge0rGdaniel: depends on your landlord. If you can make them drunk every time they want your money... :P
GuusDaniel: depends on the land...whathesaid
Ge0rGGuus: that's a sensible approach as well. Maybe we should ask the Board whether adding links to donation pages would be appropriate for the client/server software lists?
GuusGe0rG: wouldn't be the worst of ideas
zinidGuus: the point is to find a single important task and donate, that is iOS or desktop client, and if we just list all the projects this will not accumulate a lot of money within a particular project
Ge0rGzinid: so who is going to choose which client gets featured, then?
danielzinid, i feel like at least some of the client developers wouldn't even want to work full time on their projects
Guuszinid, you're right - but it does help, and could be a first step that we could do _today_. We can always do different things too.
zinidGe0rG: polling
SaltyBonesGe0rG, could you create a PR with logos?
jonaswif I’m gonna work full-time on a client, it needs to be a safe employment; I couldn’t quit my job only to find that two months later, the client doesn’t pay enough anymore.
ziniddaniel: I think there will be some who will 😁
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jonaswGe0rG, SaltyBones, if you do a PR with the logos as base64 inside the json or as files in an appropriate structure below content and refereneces to the file names in the JSON, I’ll take care of the rest of the templating/python magic
zinidjonasw: yeah, that's the problem
Ge0rGjonasw: SVG or PNG? What resolution(s)?
Ge0rGzinid: never trust a poll you didn't manipulate yourself!
danielcreating a business is always risky. i think i spend like at least two years working full time on Conversations before i made any significant amount of money from it
goffidaniel: if there is not secret, how do you make most of your money ? With support ?
SaltyBonesdaniel, convince some of your clients that they really want vidcalling ;)
zinidGe0rG: wut?
SaltyBonesor maybe jonasw tell your university to hire daniel to add it! ;)
Ge0rGzinid: see, there is money involved. People will try to cheat your poll so they end up receiving the money.
zinidGe0rG: the elections will be forged? 😀
jonaswGe0rG, whatever you find. SVG is fine, PNG would be safer though.
Ge0rGzinid: you know how it works from your state elections :P
zinidGe0rG: how is that when only donors can poll?
jonaswSaltyBones, I doubt they’ll want to pay a lot for that communication thing. otherwise I’ll be recommending daniel as consultant for sure.
SaltyBonesjonasw, try to convince them!
Ge0rGzinid: So what you propose is that instead of just funding what they want, people are supposed to make a collective, put together significant money and then have a majority decide what that money will be spent on?
jonaswSaltyBones, hah...
SaltyBonesIt's usually not their money..
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Ge0rGjonasw: you just need to find some source of money and redirect accordingly.
zinidGe0rG: majority? Everyone can poll
Ge0rGzinid: you are contradicting yourself.
zinidGe0rG: amongst donors
zinidGe0rG: you just don't get it
Ge0rGzinid: indeed, I'm not getting it.
danielSaltyBones, i think at this point any money is better invested in a decent desktop client
zinidGe0rG: every donor can poll on the project selection, nobody else
danielbecause i'm actually doing ok and Conversations is good enough for now
ziniddaniel: still iOS left
zinidAnd probably even more important imho
GuusDaniel, kudos for that. Not everyone is gracious enough to say "i've got enough, give it to others".
Ge0rGdaniel: you could start Conversations/Web now. Or Conversations/W32!
danielzinid, probably. in any case *not Conversations*. is my point
ziniddaniel: and not ejabberd, so what? 😀
Ge0rGGuus: I have also arrived at a point where it's not reasonable for me to accept funding, unless it's either at my employer's business consulting rate ($$$) or if it's on the order sufficient to buy a yacht.
danielGe0rG: that be really stupid. If anything I'd contribute to dino or converse or what ever
Ge0rGdaniel: but the network effect!!1
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Link Mauvedaniel, I contribute to these two, with time though, not money.
Link MauveIf only we could pool time as easily as we do money.
Ge0rGI contribute too! By yelling at the developers in their ticket systems!
GuusLink Mauve: I suspect that many projects prefer time over money. I'd love to have devs for Spark, for instance - that badly needs a lot of work.
Ge0rGGuus: the challenge is to find somebody who can actually reduce your workload, not increase it.
GuusGe0rG: indeed. Which is why I like GSoC, but that's a future investment (and somewhat risky, if you ignore the 'its-also-fun-to-do' bit)
jonaswmy third-party perspective on GSoC is that it rarely turns out really useful for the involved projects; is that false?
GuusYou know what - I think I'm going to blog a call-for-help for Spark devs. Most of our users are corporate. There's bound to be a few that have Devs
Guusjonasw: I have one year experience. Two of the two students that I was working with last year were at the summit and fosdem.
jonaswbut was the code useful?
Guusyes, but that's not the point.
jonaswbut that was my question :)
jonasw(in response to what Ge0rG said about "not increasing your workload")
GuusThe code that a student produces during GSoC can be created by a mentor in the same time it takes to mentor the student.
Guusthe point is that you attract long term contributors through GSoC
Guuswaves at vanitasvitae
Guusjonasw: GSoC is certainly a risky investment, in that respect: you have to first invest a lot of your time, in order to perhaps get a good deal in the long term.
zinidGuus: we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge
zinidI'm very skeptical for GSoC
Guuszinid, that's exactly why I mentioned that both students are still very active with us. One of them is even in this MUC, both are still submitting PRs to our projects.
zinidGuus: lucky you 😁
Guusbut yes, it is somewhat of a gamble.
Guus(but also great fun anyways)
GuusBut keeping people engaged is also something that we need to learn, as the XSF, or as individual projects.
Guusyou can't simply expect people to stick around.
GuusIt's why I like that the XSF invited these students to come to the summit and fosdem - I think that that's a good way to further bond, in a sense
Guussimply showing appreciation (not just to students, but to everyone in the community), goes a long way towards keeping people engaged, active, and happy.
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Guus(and it need not cost anything)
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Guushas the magic ability to bore everyone to sleep.
Ge0rG*zZZzzZZZzzzZ*
Link MauveGuus, I fully agree with that. :)
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jonaswGuus, agreed (with the engegaedness thing, not the sleep thing)
jonaswhah, funny typo in the abstract of the draft (<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00>):
> This document describes the architecture and requirements for the Messaging Layer Security (MLS) protocol. […] It is eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery.
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moparisthebestOR WAS IT A TYPO
moparisthebestdons tinfoil hat
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ZashGood morning. You have been talkative here.
jonaswhi Zash
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moparisthebestwhich one is the active one, the omara one, or https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00 ? or are they even different?
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Flowmoparisthebest, it appears one tries to draw a high level architecture picture (omara), while the other specifies the protocol in detail
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moparisthebestis that the normal process for RFCs ?
Flowmoparisthebest, don't believe that there is any restriction for authors to split or not split their documents
XSF Discussion - 2018-02-06