XSF Discussion - 2018-02-06

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  156. jonasw some people at this university want to establish some team chats, with the following requirements: - instant messaging - availability/presence status - video chat - desktop and mobile end devices they already have XMPP in their mind. I’m afraid of the "video chats" requirement. Any suggestions what I tell them at the 15th?
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  158. jonasw I doubt there will be any funding to be made available, given that Matrix et al. could possibly be adopted without funding.
  159. mathieui video chat on all devices, I suppose?
  160. jonasw I guess.
  161. Tobias Jitsi?
  162. jonasw sorry, jitsi is completely horrible as day-to-day IM client
  163. jonasw (at least last time I checked, which was around 1.5 years ago)
  164. Tobias edhelas, does movim already do voice/video via webRTC?
  165. Guus Openfire comes with a plugin that installs the Jitsi Meet suite locally
  166. jonasw Guus, is there a client which can make use of that?
  167. Guus Jitsi Meet is a web client that does webrtc
  168. jonasw oh, that’s a web thing
  169. jonasw okay, that’s interesting
  170. jonasw what’s the deployment experience with that? does it work well?
  171. Ge0rG I wanted to set it up once, but it conflicted with my prosody.
  172. Guus Jitsi meet itself is pretty stable ( https://meet.jit.si ) - The Openfire installation of it has some quircks, but it's managable (notably, you _need_ a proper TLS certificate, and I'm lagging behind, version wise, a couple of months)
  173. jonasw who’s developing that?
  174. jonasw (jitsi-meet that is)
  175. Ge0rG And the documentation wasn't telling me how it's supposed to work, only what commands I should run to "make it work"
  176. Guus The jitsi team, now acquired by Atlassian.
  177. Guus With Openfire, you can set it up in two minutes (literally).
  178. jonasw that looks seriously neat
  179. Guus I'd actually love to get your feedback on the Openfire integration. It's primarily one guy and me that's building it, and still has rough edges.
  180. jonasw I haven’t looked at openfire, sorry, only at the meet.jit.si thing
  181. jonasw but that looks very polished
  182. jonasw being acquired by atlassian, I’d be worried they might drop XMPP?
  183. mathieui the only downside of jitsi meet is that while it uses a MUC, the chat is quite limited through the web interface
  184. mathieui (imo)
  185. Guus Well, I've had a discussion with them about that. I believe that the are underutilizing XMPP, and could have a better integration, from a XMPP point of view. Their project lead pointed out that he was aware, but that their goal is not to build a strictly XMPP-optimized solution. Instead, they want to build a highly performant web-based video confernence solution.
  186. Guus XMPP is just a tool for them, not an end goal
  187. Ge0rG the chat features demand of a web-video-conf is rather low
  188. jonasw Guus, so they’re going to ditch XMPP as soon as it is more convenient.
  189. jonasw the only way to make that less convenient is by having great interoperating clients.
  190. Guus jonasw, no - their setup is heavily integrated with XMPP
  191. Ge0rG We really need modern and usable mobile and desktop clients
  192. Ge0rG A dozen of half-clients don't count.
  193. jonasw Ge0rG, pay me
  194. Guus but I'm not sure if they'd manage interop with other clients than their own, for the audio/video bit (most of it is Jingle based though, so it might actually work - and they're very happy to work with the community and add features/changes, as long as it's not conflicting with their interests of course.
  195. jonasw Guus, okay
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  197. jonasw I heard rumors of a Jitsi-Meet-Integration with Spark, is that a thing yet?
  198. Ge0rG jonasw: I offered you a job already, just not XMPP related ;) Maybe it does pay well enough to work half-time and to have the rest of the time for XMPP :P
  199. Guus but yeah, get yourself a host, disable the firewall for starters, install openfire, install a proper certificate, install the ofmeet and offocus plugins, done.
  200. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m already just going to work 75% in my job; right now I’ve got masterthesis and other things on my plate though.
  201. Guus jonasw: almost, but it's not what you expect. We simply open the web view in a browser in Spark :)
  202. jonasw Guus, that’s already a good start, if it provides a good flow from "we’re in a MUC, but we need a video/voicechat to discuss things now"
  203. Ge0rG jonasw: personally, I can't afford to pay somebody to do the work I'd gladly do myself if I had time.
  204. jonasw Ge0rG, heh
  205. jonasw Ge0rG, point is, I think most a are painfully aware of the issues.
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  207. Ge0rG jonasw: it was even discussed at the summit, but I didn't get the conclusion, if there was one.
  208. jonasw I don’t recall either
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  211. Ge0rG jonasw: maybe we should reduce fragmentation and focus our efforts. Stop writing JabberCat and help out making Gajim Great Again.
  212. jonasw stop writing yaxim and implement video chat in conversations.
  213. Ge0rG jonasw: yaxim came first :P
  214. Guus jonasw: I certainly would love your feedback on the Openfire / jitsi meet integration bit
  215. Guus give it a try if you've got like half an hour to play.
  216. jonasw Guus, I’m still looking for an openfire-docker-thing
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  218. Guus jonasw, surevine might have one, but there's no official one from us
  219. Guus we do have .deb, .rpm and .exe installers - or you can build from source.
  220. jonasw I’m asking for docker specifically because I can do that in travis-ci without hassle
  221. jonasw (and having it would make it easier to play around locally indeed)
  222. Guus I don't have one, sorry :)
  223. jonasw regarding testing jitsi meet+openfire, if it requires a working TLS cert, I’m not sure how that’ll work in half an hour ;-)
  224. Guus letsencrypt/
  225. Guus ?
  226. jonasw but that requires me to do that on an internet-reachable server
  227. Guus (also, the cert requirement will be dropped again after we are able to fix an internal issue)
  228. Link Mauve Guus, I do want to make existing desktop clients interop with Jitsi Meet.
  229. Link Mauve For now just in one to one, so not with Jitsi Meet, but MUC video is part of a longer term plan.
  230. Guus jonasw: well, you can do a self-signed one, but then your browser will need to recognize it
  231. jonasw does it need to do that beforehands, or can I simply accept it when it asks for it?
  232. Ge0rG Link Mauve: in which client do you want to make that happen?
  233. Guus jonasw, also, if you disable all encryption in Openfire, it'll work - not something you want to do outside of a local setup, obviously.
  234. jonasw ah okay
  235. Link Mauve Ge0rG, probably Gajim first, since it already has good Gstreamer integration.
  236. jonasw I’ll just do that I guess :>
  237. Link Mauve Also to get up to speed with Gstreamer personally.
  238. Ge0rG Link Mauve: I was frightened for a moment you could say "poezio"
  239. Link Mauve :D
  240. Guus Link Mauve: that'd be great. As I said, we'll integrate the Meet web client in Spark, which is a start. Proper integration would be better!
  241. jonasw Link Mauve, come over and do it in Jabbercat. We’ve got Qt and the chromium engine. WebRTC for free!
  242. jonasw Ge0rG, libaa!
  243. Link Mauve jonasw, the idea is exactly to add interoperability between desktop and web, not just web. :p
  244. jonasw Link Mauve, that’s still desktop?
  245. Link Mauve jonasw, as in, using jitsi-videobridge to make Gstreamer clients talk with WebRTC clients seamlessly.
  246. jonasw can’t you talk webrtc from any client?
  247. Ge0rG jonasw: libcaca please.
  248. jonasw Ge0rG, does libcaca have a sweet demo like bb?
  249. Ge0rG jonasw: dunno, but you can mplayer the matrix trailer with it
  250. Ge0rG and there is an awesome visualized called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.
  251. Ge0rG and there is an awesome visualizer called "cacaball". I'm not kidding.
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  255. zinid Ge0rG: what's wrong with mobile clients?
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  257. zinid I agree desktop clients suck
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  259. Ge0rG zinid: Conversations is okay, minus voip/video. The others all suck.
  260. Ge0rG zinid: especially on iOS
  261. zinid Ge0rG: ah, iOS, right
  262. Ge0rG zinid: the situation on other platforms is even worse, but fortunately nobody expects that any more.
  263. zinid Ge0rG: you can always suppress your ego and join conversations team 😁
  264. Ge0rG zinid: I'd use all my time to keep up with the changes in the code base and couldn't contribute anyway.
  265. zinid I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now
  266. Ge0rG zinid: I'm not sure what you are talking about.
  267. zinid Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project
  268. Link Mauve “10:12:28 jonasw> can’t you talk webrtc from any client?”, Gstreamer doesn’t support everything yet AFAIK, although I’m not fully sure what’s still missing.
  269. zinid Especially if it's superior
  270. Link Mauve But jitsi-videobridge integration will be needed anyway for MUC video, so why not start with that.
  271. Ge0rG > Ge0rG: I want to say that it's better to join existing project tell that to daniel :P
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  273. zinid Ge0rG: so you're just fulfilling your ego and now cry why we don't have mobile clients?
  274. Ge0rG zinid: I have contributed code to conversations, I have tested and reported a number of bugs on the iOS clients. I really don't know what you want from me now.
  275. zinid Ge0rG: VoIP stuff 😀
  276. Ge0rG zinid: not gonna happen
  277. zinid Ge0rG: why? Ego again?
  278. Link Mauve jonasw, Ge0rG, nowadays we have 256 colours available (some terminals even support 24-bit, but ncurses doesn’t), we don’t need terrible things like libcaca anymore. :p
  279. Guus have you guys tried the IOS client from Tigase? They showed it to me at FOSDEM briefly. Looked nice enough
  280. Link Mauve See poezio’s gorgeous avatar display. ^^
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  282. zinid Link Mauve: which doesn't work
  283. Guus (I don't have an iPhone, so I've not really played with it though)
  284. Link Mauve Works for me.
  285. Ge0rG Guus: IIRC I enrolled for the beta test a year ago, but then was disappointed that there is no bug tracker to report into
  286. daniel > I really don't understand the need in yet another toy project, it was clear for me 15 years ago when I joined ejabberd project and it's even more clear now This 'client a is not written in my favorite programming language / ui toolkit thus I really need to start my own from scratch' is one of the reasons we don't have a lot of good clients.
  287. Ge0rG zinid: as opposed to you, I'm not driven by my ego :P I just know the insanity that awaits me, should I start writing VoIP/video code
  288. Ge0rG daniel: but it's the reasons we have *a lot* of clients!
  289. zinid Ge0rG: ah, so you're just a pussy 😁
  290. jonasw daniel, the reason for that though is that we only have free-time developers.
  291. Ge0rG daniel: and out of all people, *you* shouldn't complain about client diversity :P
  292. Ge0rG zinid: and you are a dick. So what's the problem, let's do it quick!
  293. jonasw lol
  294. zinid Rammstein?
  295. jonasw TIL the ejabberd-MUC has an avatar
  296. Ge0rG zinid: the fact that you recognized that just added a sympathy point to your score.
  297. Guus damnit, zinid stole my sympathy point!
  298. zinid daniel: but in Android you have the same language and toolkit lol 😁
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  300. Ge0rG jonasw: we only have free-time CADT developers... https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
  301. zinid Ge0rG: what about funding? How much can we collect per month?
  302. Ge0rG zinid: who is "we" and what do we want to collect for?
  303. zinid Ge0rG: we - the xmpp community
  304. zinid Collect for the salary
  305. Ge0rG zinid: the XSF is collecting some amount of money. Last time I checked, there was strict opposition against collecting money to fund development of a single client.
  306. Ge0rG zinid: it is easy to f*ck this up: assumed we have funding for one or two developers, how are we going to distribute that?
  307. zinid Ge0rG: why? We can leave donors to control the development depending on their money contribution, matrix does this
  308. Ge0rG should we give the money to daniel because he's writing the best Android client, or maybe to me because it's good to have alternatives? To JC for improving the web client? To lovetox for Gajim? To somebody else?
  309. Ge0rG zinid: the XSF is "vendor neutral", so it can't really solve this problem
  310. zinid Ge0rG: well, we should collect applications then donors will decide
  311. zinid We can create JSF as you suggested
  312. Ge0rG zinid: but then again the JSF will be vendor-neutral as well and have the exact same problem!
  313. zinid Ge0rG: what problem?
  314. Ge0rG zinid: with Matrix, there was THE client, and then they switched from THE matrix client to riot.im, by whatever mechanism they used to decide that riot is better now
  315. Ge0rG zinid: the XSF is lacking volunteers even for the regular tasks we have. There is nobody left to run another Org
  316. zinid Ge0rG: actually they have the neat patreon policy: you can control the development if you contribute some decent amount
  317. Ge0rG zinid: that's great. So now they are owned by this one big crypto money scam org?
  318. zinid Ge0rG: then we can just open patreon project and will control the development via bugtracker
  319. zinid So no org is required
  320. mathieui depends if you want accountability or not
  321. Ge0rG zinid: yes. Please create a patreon project, invite developers of different XMPP clients and let them define tasks and prices, then go out and collect funds
  322. zinid Ge0rG: what's wrong if the project will be aquired?
  323. jonasw patreon might not be the right thing for this
  324. jonasw but the general concept probably applies
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  327. zinid Ge0rG: I'm actually asking here on purpose, if there are people wanting to contribute
  328. Ge0rG zinid: to contribute money? I'm not sure you'll find anyone in here.
  329. jonasw I’m not sure what tax implications it’d have. I’m also pretty sure that I’d have to run that by my employer, which feels to be too much hassle.
  330. zinid Ge0rG: here - in the XSF
  331. Ge0rG jonasw: giving or taking?
  332. zinid Ge0rG: nobody, really?
  333. Guus I actually think that it's not a bad idea if the XSF helps individual people to sign up for Patreon or similar things
  334. Ge0rG Guus: is it something the developers can't do on their own?
  335. zinid What, even 10$/month is a terrible burden for an XSF member?
  336. jonasw Ge0rG, taking
  337. jonasw giving is trivial
  338. Guus actually, https://converse.js lists both Patreon and LiberaPay on its website. Everyone can start with contributing to that.
  339. jonasw zinid, if we shuffle funds around inside the XSF, I’m not sure that’ll help in any way
  340. Guus Ge0rG: devs _can_ do that on theirselves, but everything is hard if you don't know how to do it. Simple guides can go a long way.
  341. Ge0rG jonasw: regarding taking: it's a secondary source of income that you need to income-tax. You need to make a tax declaration at the end of the year and pay something between 0 and 40% of it back
  342. jonasw okay, I’ll have to make tax declarations starting next year anyways.
  343. Ge0rG Guus: I've never interacted with patreon. Is there some kind of tag system where we can group all xmpp developers?
  344. jonasw so that is not overhead which counts
  345. jonasw but employer things would be annoying.
  346. jonasw (not that annoying probably)
  347. Ge0rG jonasw: IIUC you only need to tell your employer, not ask them.
  348. jonasw yeah, probably
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  351. jonasw damn, I didn’t consider I’ll have to file taxes now anyways. I might as well give it a shot the.n
  352. SaltyBones I would be curious which features users even want.
  353. Guus boom, I've just pledged to converse.js. Now you guys.
  354. SaltyBones Is it "just work better" or "vidcalling" or "moar crypto"?
  355. zinid Guus: there are two problems with existing project: they cannot attract donors and the quality is mostly shit, sadly
  356. Guus Ge0rG: I don't know.
  357. jonasw SaltyBones, all of the three
  358. jonasw with "moar crypto" breaking the other two
  359. Guus zinid, you were telling people to pay developers to allow them to improve quality. Converse.JS lets you do that.
  360. jonasw Ge0rG, we could make a page on xmpp.org where ways to support XMPP clients are listed
  361. SaltyBones jonasw, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Af1qeouMc
  362. SaltyBones ;)
  363. Ge0rG jonasw: I'd love to have that, but I suppose we need some open and egalitarian process to enroll developers, so that we don't violate our "vendor neutrality"
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  365. jonasw Ge0rG, add a field to the client list, boom done.
  366. Ge0rG jonasw: I'd like to have another field in the client list: a short description
  367. Guus what other xmpp projects have Patreon-like pages?
  368. Ge0rG and a logo
  369. jonasw Ge0rG, do that
  370. jonasw logo is a good idea actually
  371. Guus I'd be happy to spend a few bucks/month on several
  372. jonasw we can base64 that and have the python stuff put it in an image directory automatically
  373. zinid Guus: still, the first problem remains. That's why I asked if XSF members can contribute, that will be a great start
  374. jonasw Guus, conversations maybe?
  375. jonasw Guus, you’re tempting me to set up liberapay just now ;)
  376. Guus jonasw: I buy conversations, the client.
  377. jonasw ah
  378. jonasw good :)
  379. Guus jonasw, seriously, go for it.
  380. jonasw (I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP client developers is going to be a good thing)
  381. jonasw (I don’t, because I’m not sure shuffling around money between XMPP developers is going to be a good thing)
  382. SaltyBones hm...can you gift something to people on the app store?
  383. Ge0rG SaltyBones: no :(
  384. SaltyBones There are still a few people whom I would like to be able to reach with conversations...
  385. SaltyBones bummer
  386. daniel i'd try to come up with actual business models instead of relying on donations
  387. Guus jonasw: the idea is that non-members also make use of it. :)
  388. Ge0rG daniel: don't you have one already?
  389. SaltyBones daniel, is there a way to have vouchers or something?
  390. Guus daniel, obviously. But every bit helps, right?
  391. daniel Ge0rG, yes. that's why i'm recommending that approach over donations
  392. jonasw SaltyBones, sadly, the only way may be to wait for the next offer. I was lucky that C was free around the holidays.
  393. Ge0rG has a business model where another app he develops pays for the time to work on yaxim.
  394. Link Mauve Guus, Gajim has three options here: https://gajim.org/dev.php
  395. SaltyBones jonasw, what I'm saying is, I bought it and I would buy it for other people to support daniel and get them to use it...
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  397. jonasw SaltyBones, I see
  398. jonasw (my issue was that family doesn’t have any payment info associated with their google account)
  399. daniel Guus, sure. that wasn't a comment on you pledging towards converse.js. that was just a general statement on the 'how can we fund xmpp clients' discussion
  400. zinid What's wrong with donations? Even if we fail to init a project we can always give the money to some existing project depending on elections
  401. Ge0rG when you buy Conversations on Google Play, Google will keep 30%, and Merkel will keep some ~30% as well. It's better to meet Daniel and spend him a beer ;)
  402. jonasw except beer ;-)
  403. Ge0rG a beverage.
  404. SaltyBones Maybe I'll try getting a play store gift card and see if that works...
  405. daniel Ge0rG, i love beverages. but beverages don't pay for rent
  406. daniel at least i never tried that…
  407. Guus if anyone is interested, maybe create a wiki page that links to all donation pages of XMPP projects?
  408. zinid Since it's supposed to have a lot of donors, the elections supposed to be fair enough
  409. Ge0rG daniel: depends on your landlord. If you can make them drunk every time they want your money... :P
  410. Guus Daniel: depends on the land...whathesaid
  411. Ge0rG Guus: that's a sensible approach as well. Maybe we should ask the Board whether adding links to donation pages would be appropriate for the client/server software lists?
  412. Guus Ge0rG: wouldn't be the worst of ideas
  413. zinid Guus: the point is to find a single important task and donate, that is iOS or desktop client, and if we just list all the projects this will not accumulate a lot of money within a particular project
  414. Ge0rG zinid: so who is going to choose which client gets featured, then?
  415. daniel zinid, i feel like at least some of the client developers wouldn't even want to work full time on their projects
  416. Guus zinid, you're right - but it does help, and could be a first step that we could do _today_. We can always do different things too.
  417. zinid Ge0rG: polling
  418. SaltyBones Ge0rG, could you create a PR with logos?
  419. jonasw if I’m gonna work full-time on a client, it needs to be a safe employment; I couldn’t quit my job only to find that two months later, the client doesn’t pay enough anymore.
  420. zinid daniel: I think there will be some who will 😁
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  422. jonasw Ge0rG, SaltyBones, if you do a PR with the logos as base64 inside the json or as files in an appropriate structure below content and refereneces to the file names in the JSON, I’ll take care of the rest of the templating/python magic
  423. zinid jonasw: yeah, that's the problem
  424. Ge0rG jonasw: SVG or PNG? What resolution(s)?
  425. Ge0rG zinid: never trust a poll you didn't manipulate yourself!
  426. daniel creating a business is always risky. i think i spend like at least two years working full time on Conversations before i made any significant amount of money from it
  427. goffi daniel: if there is not secret, how do you make most of your money ? With support ?
  428. SaltyBones daniel, convince some of your clients that they really want vidcalling ;)
  429. zinid Ge0rG: wut?
  430. SaltyBones or maybe jonasw tell your university to hire daniel to add it! ;)
  431. Ge0rG zinid: see, there is money involved. People will try to cheat your poll so they end up receiving the money.
  432. zinid Ge0rG: the elections will be forged? 😀
  433. jonasw Ge0rG, whatever you find. SVG is fine, PNG would be safer though.
  434. Ge0rG zinid: you know how it works from your state elections :P
  435. zinid Ge0rG: how is that when only donors can poll?
  436. jonasw SaltyBones, I doubt they’ll want to pay a lot for that communication thing. otherwise I’ll be recommending daniel as consultant for sure.
  437. SaltyBones jonasw, try to convince them!
  438. Ge0rG zinid: So what you propose is that instead of just funding what they want, people are supposed to make a collective, put together significant money and then have a majority decide what that money will be spent on?
  439. jonasw SaltyBones, hah...
  440. SaltyBones It's usually not their money..
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  442. Ge0rG jonasw: you just need to find some source of money and redirect accordingly.
  443. zinid Ge0rG: majority? Everyone can poll
  444. Ge0rG zinid: you are contradicting yourself.
  445. zinid Ge0rG: amongst donors
  446. zinid Ge0rG: you just don't get it
  447. Ge0rG zinid: indeed, I'm not getting it.
  448. daniel SaltyBones, i think at this point any money is better invested in a decent desktop client
  449. zinid Ge0rG: every donor can poll on the project selection, nobody else
  450. daniel because i'm actually doing ok and Conversations is good enough for now
  451. zinid daniel: still iOS left
  452. zinid And probably even more important imho
  453. Guus Daniel, kudos for that. Not everyone is gracious enough to say "i've got enough, give it to others".
  454. Ge0rG daniel: you could start Conversations/Web now. Or Conversations/W32!
  455. daniel zinid, probably. in any case *not Conversations*. is my point
  456. zinid daniel: and not ejabberd, so what? 😀
  457. Ge0rG Guus: I have also arrived at a point where it's not reasonable for me to accept funding, unless it's either at my employer's business consulting rate ($$$) or if it's on the order sufficient to buy a yacht.
  458. daniel Ge0rG: that be really stupid. If anything I'd contribute to dino or converse or what ever
  459. Ge0rG daniel: but the network effect!!1
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  461. Link Mauve daniel, I contribute to these two, with time though, not money.
  462. Link Mauve If only we could pool time as easily as we do money.
  463. Ge0rG I contribute too! By yelling at the developers in their ticket systems!
  464. Guus Link Mauve: I suspect that many projects prefer time over money. I'd love to have devs for Spark, for instance - that badly needs a lot of work.
  465. Ge0rG Guus: the challenge is to find somebody who can actually reduce your workload, not increase it.
  466. Guus Ge0rG: indeed. Which is why I like GSoC, but that's a future investment (and somewhat risky, if you ignore the 'its-also-fun-to-do' bit)
  467. jonasw my third-party perspective on GSoC is that it rarely turns out really useful for the involved projects; is that false?
  468. Guus You know what - I think I'm going to blog a call-for-help for Spark devs. Most of our users are corporate. There's bound to be a few that have Devs
  469. Guus jonasw: I have one year experience. Two of the two students that I was working with last year were at the summit and fosdem.
  470. jonasw but was the code useful?
  471. Guus yes, but that's not the point.
  472. jonasw but that was my question :)
  473. jonasw (in response to what Ge0rG said about "not increasing your workload")
  474. Guus The code that a student produces during GSoC can be created by a mentor in the same time it takes to mentor the student.
  475. Guus the point is that you attract long term contributors through GSoC
  476. Guus waves at vanitasvitae
  477. Guus jonasw: GSoC is certainly a risky investment, in that respect: you have to first invest a lot of your time, in order to perhaps get a good deal in the long term.
  478. zinid Guus: we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge
  479. zinid I'm very skeptical for GSoC
  480. Guus zinid, that's exactly why I mentioned that both students are still very active with us. One of them is even in this MUC, both are still submitting PRs to our projects.
  481. zinid Guus: lucky you 😁
  482. Guus but yes, it is somewhat of a gamble.
  483. Guus (but also great fun anyways)
  484. Guus But keeping people engaged is also something that we need to learn, as the XSF, or as individual projects.
  485. Guus you can't simply expect people to stick around.
  486. Guus It's why I like that the XSF invited these students to come to the summit and fosdem - I think that that's a good way to further bond, in a sense
  487. Guus simply showing appreciation (not just to students, but to everyone in the community), goes a long way towards keeping people engaged, active, and happy.
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  489. Guus (and it need not cost anything)
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  491. Guus has the magic ability to bore everyone to sleep.
  492. Ge0rG *zZZzzZZZzzzZ*
  493. Link Mauve Guus, I fully agree with that. :)
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  496. jonasw Guus, agreed (with the engegaedness thing, not the sleep thing)
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  535. Tobias SaltyBones, https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
  536. Holger zinid: > we have never head a long-term contributors, they just disappear after the merge Didn't Badlop get involved via GSoC, originally?
  537. Tobias I think so
  538. zinid Holger, he was involved, but not via GSoC
  539. zinid he did GSoC later, being full-time contributor
  540. zinid so I'm not sure this is counted as "involved via GSoC"
  541. Holger zinid: Ah, I see.
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  544. SaltyBones Tobias, yep, thx, saw it!
  545. jonasw is that list sufficient to stay in the loop for that WG?
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  548. Tobias probably
  549. Tobias who knows if they are building more 'escape velocity' somewhere ;)
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  551. jonasw escape velocity?
  552. Tobias jonasw, https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cfrg/current/msg09467.html :)
  553. jonasw I see
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  555. jonasw hah, funny typo in the abstract of the draft (<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-architecture-00>): > This document describes the architecture and requirements for the Messaging Layer Security (MLS) protocol. […] It is eavesdropping, tampering, and message forgery.
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  563. moparisthebest OR WAS IT A TYPO
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  733. Zash Good morning. You have been talkative here.
  734. jonasw hi Zash
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  801. moparisthebest which one is the active one, the omara one, or https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-mls-protocol-00 ? or are they even different?
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  806. Flow moparisthebest, it appears one tries to draw a high level architecture picture (omara), while the other specifies the protocol in detail
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  808. moparisthebest is that the normal process for RFCs ?
  809. Flow moparisthebest, don't believe that there is any restriction for authors to split or not split their documents
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  811. Zash moparisthebest: Not uncommon
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