XSF Discussion - 2018-02-07

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  137. ralphm https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16319418
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  140. ralphm Some comments on XMPP and IoT.
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  190. tux Thanks for the link!
  191. tux Public transport seems to go for MQTT. :/
  192. tux No apparent reason, ie I never met an engineer who could tell me why the standards say "MQTT" (not much more, actually, it's still HTTP and SOAP).
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  194. tux I am trying to get XMPP in there, at least as a showcase, but so far MQTT has won by being the IoT buzzword.
  195. zinid tech this days...
  196. zinid driven by buzzwords exclusively
  197. edhelas well a good ol' comparison/benchmark could bring some nice bases for a proper discussion
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  199. jonasw I think people did that
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  201. tux edhelas: but our product management is right when they say that you cannot engineer against the market.
  202. tux Unless you are Google or so
  203. jonasw edhelas, for XMPP e.g. "Access to Global and Federated Smart Objects Using XMPP" by Schuster et al.
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  209. zinid > you cannot engineer against the market Nailed it
  210. zinid that's why I think XMPP is lost because reputation is lost and you cannot fix that by creating good software or standards
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  213. Ge0rG jonasw: "Access to Global and Federated Smart Objects" - things like this cause me sleepless nights
  214. jonasw Ge0rG, hah
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  216. Ge0rG I'm not an XMPP IoT expert, but what MQTT provides is a very low-level pub-sub primitive protocol with no auth and no device enumeration. Are there IoT libs/specifications on top of that which allow automatic discovery, integration into complex control systems etc?
  217. Ge0rG Do we have those over XMPP?
  218. Ge0rG Last time I did IoT (over MQTT), I had to hard-code room names into event channel names and make custom firmware images for different rooms.
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  220. Ge0rG I think that providing an easy-to-use abstraction library for the typical IoT developer problems will bring out acceptance to super-high automatically.
  221. Ge0rG *our
  222. zinid I also do not understand how you can compare mqtt and xmpp, they are on different layers
  223. Ge0rG zinid: are they?
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  225. zinid Ge0rG: from what I understand mqtt is just a hack on top of transport layer, it only improves transport, it defines no payload
  226. zinid While xmmp is transport plus application specific payload
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  228. Ge0rG zinid: MQTT is a pub-sub mechanism, too.
  229. zinid Ge0rG: so you can build federation with authentication and such using mqtt?
  230. zinid Also if pubsub is the only requirement let's use Redis!
  231. jonasw just because something doesn’t do federation, doesn’t mean that it’s just "a hack on top of transport layer" O_o
  232. jonasw (but IIRC authn was weird with MQTT)
  233. Tobias using TLS certs for auth?
  234. Ge0rG jonasw: was there any at all?
  235. jonasw lemme check
  236. jonasw I did a survey of IoT technologies in a class
  237. jonasw Ge0rG, plain text passwords
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  239. jonasw not sure if you count that as authn
  240. Ge0rG jonasw: I don't know. Are we in 1998 or in 2018?
  241. jonasw Ge0rG, zinid: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/iot.pdf FWIW, that’s my summary on IoT protocols (MQTT, XMPP, CoAP and AMQP) from 2013 or something
  242. jonasw maybe that helps to get you on the same pages
  243. jonasw maybe that helps to get you on the same page?
  244. Ge0rG jonasw: so _you_ are that XXX guy!
  245. jonasw damn
  246. jonasw I should’ve used another thing to blank it out
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  248. jonasw I blanked it out because I’m not sure whether it’s fine to link to it publicly.
  249. jonasw (contains my supervisors name in the original version, which may or may not be ok)
  250. Ge0rG jonasw: generally I consider it fine to publish academic works that were reviewed and approved by the supervisor
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  252. jonasw I planned to ask him at some point :-)
  253. jonasw maybe I should just do that
  254. zinid jonasw, ok, so MQTT is an improved transport protocol with message broker, great. Now you need to implement your own application protocol on top of it to do federation, authentication, session lookups and so on
  255. zinid and you will end up with a custom solution, or what? will it be documented?
  256. jonasw I’m not sure what you mean by session lookups.
  257. zinid jonasw, how will you find peers?
  258. Ge0rG zinid: of these problems, XMPP solves federation. Authentication is a not-quite-solved problem for IoT devices. sessions and message delivery are a nightmare. And what kind of light-weight "smart object" abstraction do you run when you have messaging set up?
  259. Ge0rG And I'd argue that federation is not generally a good idea for IoT
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  261. zinid well, I'm not an IoT expert, so I cannot say if federation is needed, but whatever
  262. Ge0rG IoT federation is when Latvian hackers demand US dollars from Australian citizens to give back control over their Chinese thermostats.
  263. zinid sounds like a niche for XMPP
  264. zinid we already have a lot of criminals in XMPP, need moar
  265. Ge0rG tux: do you have an idea of useful IoT device abstraction libraries/protocol on top of either MQTT or XMPP?
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  267. zinid I think federation is important if you want to configure your toster from the phone
  268. zinid if you don't, and you only need to connect tosters, then fuck that shit
  269. Ge0rG zinid: how does your toaster know which phone is yours?
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  271. zinid Ge0rG, OMEMO!
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  274. Ge0rG "Sorry, I can't make breakfast today, I have a new smartphone".
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  276. SaltyBones I agree with zinid. XMPP does much more than the comparisons. Unfortunately, I think that is one of the problems that people have with it XMPP is too many things at once.
  277. Ge0rG SaltyBones: I'm not saying XMPP is bad for IoT, I'm merely saying that we don't have the tools that reduce the work for IoT developers
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  279. SaltyBones I totally agree with that as well.
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  282. zinid because nobody is working on these tools
  283. zinid well, at least currently
  284. SaltyBones Well... tigase?
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  286. zinid I meant the specs
  287. zinid did tigase produce them?
  288. zinid From what I see currently the specs are deferred due to inactivity
  289. Flow IIRC peter retracted the IoT XEPs, or at lest tried to
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  291. Flow peter waher that is
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  298. Holger Yes they're don't their own thing now. But from what I know they're quite happy with XMPP core.
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  300. Holger I.e. SASL, sessions, routing.
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  303. Ge0rG But that doesn't provide any on top value for IoT.
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  313. zinid Ge0rG, and what value does XMPP provide then?
  314. zinid seems like doesn't fit very much for chats as well
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  316. Holger Ge0rG: On top of what?
  317. Holger Ge0rG: I'm just saying the Waher people see core XMPP as a good fit, e.g. compared to HTTP (which is what others do).
  318. Holger Of courese they need custom stuff to do their thing, communication with the XSF didn't work so they now do non-standard extensions. But from what I've heard the core might actually work better for them than for modern IM.
  319. Dave Cridland Tigase folk are working essentially without any deviation from the "normal" XMPP extensions.
  320. Flow Holger, I don't think they do non-standard extension, it's just not an XEP
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  322. Flow which raises the question if it's a good idea for $company to XEP things up
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  324. Dave Cridland Flow, A XEP for them owuld be more or less informational. They're simply using pubsub and other normal stuff. The only thing they pulled from the IoT stuff was the payload format.
  325. Flow Dave Cridland, I was talking about "the waher people" aka. clayster
  326. Flow not tigase
  327. Flow which I assume is the group Holger talks about
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  330. zinid I'm lost: so we now have different protocols for IoT devices?
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  332. Holger Flow: Right.
  333. Flow zinid, course we have
  334. zinid "Waher" people do IoT, others do MQTT and so on?
  335. Flow No
  336. Holger Flow: An extension that isn't standardized is not a "non-standard extension"? :-)
  337. zinid "Waher" people do XMPP, others do MQTT and so on?
  338. Flow both, clayster and tigase, appears to do IoT with XMPP
  339. jonasw (i think it isn’t about "standard" adn "non-standard", but about whether it is even an extension, Holger)
  340. Flow Holger, well if you write it down it's standarized, if you make it public its an open standard
  341. Flow for me, it doesn't metter which entity is behind the standard
  342. Flow if it's a standards org like ISO, or just some random company
  343. Flow or maybe even just some anonymous individual
  344. Holger Ah. Ok, whatever :-)
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  346. Flow of course you can better market things if it's a XEP, or even if PSA appears on the authors list
  347. Holger (I think they didn't even publish their stuff so far but were quite open to do so.)
  348. Flow Holger, stefandxm has some stuff published
  349. Holger Yeah.
  350. Flow (of course i meant above "if you make it public *and* freely implementable, then it is an open standard")
  351. Holger Fine with me. I just meant to say "it's not an XEP" and wasn't insisting on any definition of 'open standard' :-)
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  354. Flow as long as you care for open standards ;)
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  361. Dave Cridland Council Agenda sent out, by the way. I've put Guus's 198 PR on, of the existing PRs, because it seems to have had some discussion - but I suspect it won't be resolved today nonetheless.
  362. Flow Dave Cridland: thanks, one small suggestion: it would be great if you would mention the full XEP title and not just the number, i'm not good maping numbers to whatever the XEP does
  363. jonasw Flow, !xep 198
  364. jonasw waves at Bunneh
  365. Seve/SouL Didn't know about https://coy.im/
  366. Flow jonasw, well 198 is the actually one of the few numbers i am able to remember ;)
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  369. Dave Cridland Flow, We've internally referred to it by number all the time, I think.
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  371. jonasw vanitasvitae, re XEP-0392: tried clamping your values to the [0..1] range?
  372. jonasw looks suspiciously as if that was the issue
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  374. jonasw (but I don’t have time to check that right now; other values are affected by this too)
  375. vanitasvitae jonasw: where exactly should I clamp?
  376. jonasw I thnik it’s written in the text
  377. jonasw ha
  378. jonasw vanitasvitae, ah, I’m using the verb "clip" there. §5.4, step 2: > Clip the values of r, g and b to the range from 0 to 1.
  379. vanitasvitae I'll check :)
  380. vanitasvitae Thank you
  381. jonasw -xep 198
  382. Bunneh jonasw: Stream Management (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-12-08) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0198.html
  383. jonasw ah, Flow ^ that’s how it works :)
  384. vanitasvitae So basically if any value of r,g,b exceeds the range of 0,1, just round it to the nearest value in 0,1?
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  386. jonasw vanitasvitae, yes
  387. vanitasvitae For example 1,6 → 1,0, 0,43→0,43, -2 →0
  388. vanitasvitae Ok
  389. vanitasvitae Thank you :)
  390. jonasw exactly
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  392. Dave Cridland Seve/SouL, I don't remember seeing that one either. But it's another Security over Usability. I mean, no clickable links?
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  394. Seve/SouL Dave Cridland, yeah...
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  396. Holger https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#prefs -- is the 'default' attribute mandatory?
  397. vanitasvitae jonasw: now it works. Nice :)
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  400. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: your agenda is full of 363 links :>
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  402. Ge0rG Guus: there is a typo in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/579 - "to high" --> "too high"
  403. Ge0rG Guus: but I think the new wording is pretty convoluted and might be cleaned up with a bit of thought.
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  413. Ge0rG daniel: I've provided some feedback to XEP-0363 in November, that went largely uncommented. If you happen to have a moment to think about it before the Council Meeting, we might be able to accelerate things.
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  419. tux Sorry, work called me out
  420. tux Ge0rG: I don't have a specific IoT library for XMPP. I have used Gloox once for the XMPP part and was quite satisfied, but for a show case the Gloox license is not viable. It seems that right now, based on available licenses, we are down to strophy in an embedded environment.
  421. jonasw strophy?
  422. tux In contrast to MQTT, XMPP can handle mobile connections and has built-in security features. However, MQTT5 counters this, wehen available
  423. tux erm,strophe
  424. jonasw ah
  425. jonasw right
  426. tux http://strophe.im/libstrophe/
  427. jonasw yeah, used that in an ... embedded ... context myself
  428. jonasw was wondering if there was a new shiny thing
  429. tux not really
  430. Flow -xep 363
  431. Bunneh Flow: HTTP File Upload (Standards Track, Proposed, 2017-12-03) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
  432. tux But yeah, it would be much easier if there was an XMPP based library for IoT under a viable license (not GPL)
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  434. jonasw LGPL?
  435. tux is an option
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  437. Ge0rG tux: auth and (limited) mobile support also exist in HTTP.
  438. jonasw heresy!
  439. tux Ge0rG: but only in request/response scheme and features such as presence management would have to implemented, where XMPP already does this
  440. jonasw tux, json-over-websockets!
  441. tux Basically, XMPP allows us to 1) Log in a device by it's ID 2) Report and track its status in a presence stanza 3) send push-messages both ways 4) have built-in security 5) have handling for roaming mobile connections with constant link failures
  442. tux We'd have to re-build many of these features on HTTP or MQTT
  443. tux There is one thing XMPP cannot do: having very brief messages.
  444. Ge0rG tux: my point is that between "XMPP" and "how do I switch on a light" there is still a large development effort
  445. tux However, MQTT is already out there and part of standards (such as ITxPT) name these as _the_ IoT protocol, even though there is no further specification on how to actually use the protocol.
  446. tux It seems that many industries cannot imagine that IoT can happen without MQTT.
  447. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, FFS. Cut and paste error, of course. It's right in the Spreadsheet Of Doom.
  448. tux Ge0rG: Yes, there is. But XMPP is farther down the road than many other solutions.
  449. tux Only that XMPP is not known.
  450. jonasw tux, depends on your requirements
  451. jonasw I can imagine that things like (1) and (4) may not interest a lot of people, or even (5)
  452. tux It's a bit like the Microsoft thing: Maybe not the best solution available, but so many people are sure that this is _the_ solution that they are willing to spend tremendous effort to actually make it work.
  453. tux jonasw: well, they interest me.
  454. tux That's my actual application.
  455. jonasw tux, sure; I’m trying to explain why MQTT is seen as _the_ protocol without thought
  456. tux jonasw: Really, I have the feeling that "MQTT" is just copy-pasted as buzzword.
  457. jonasw that’s another possibility :)
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  459. tux I've talked to hardware vendors about why they choose to build an MQTT gateway and they say something along the line of "IoT needs MQTT"
  460. jonasw re brief messages: have a look at EXI. {xep exi}
  461. Bunneh jonasw: Efficient XML Interchange (EXI) Format (Standards Track, Deferred, 2018-01-25) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0322.html
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  463. jonasw has anyone heard of arc since the elections?
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  465. zinid "Efficient"
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  468. mathieui https://nextcloud.com/talk/ anyone knows what they’re using?
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  471. tux I once built a system that used jstrophe and Smack to transfer data between Browser-based application and backend. However, this has been superseded by JS frameworks now. The advantage was that the Browser used the same backend as every other part of the system.
  472. zinid mathieui: xmpp, IIRC
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  579. edhelas https://telegram.org/blog/login
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  581. Ge0rG Heh, I was expecting to see a CMS login mask under that URL
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  682. pep. https://bpaste.net/show/9e375f6d5d66 for those not in council@, interesting discussion (that should have be done here) about including non-white male in the XSF, and membership process
  683. pep. Wait there are logs of council right?
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  692. peter While working on https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid-04 just now, I noticed that https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.html is version 2.5rc3. It would be good to get that spec out of whatever interim state it's in.
  693. Syndace has left
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  698. peter Also we seem to have lost https://xmpp.org/extensions/refs/ in transition at some point.
  699. peter Which is bad because that's referenced from https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/
  700. peter Huh, the files are on the server, though...
  701. peter Last updated 2017-03-17.
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  703. ralphm Maybe some rewrite rule gone sideways.
  704. ralphm Maybe Kev or Intosi can figure that out
  705. peter Yeah I'll ping the iteam
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  731. jjrh mathieui, https://github.com/nextcloud/server/search?q=xmpp&type=Issues&utf8=%E2%9C%93 XMPP it seems
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