XSF Discussion - 2018-02-11

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00:03:17 Seve/SouL Do whe have any "general purpose" mailing list?
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00:09:20 Seve/SouL I guess JUser will do
00:10:19 Seve/SouL I hope many people is subscribed there
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10:17:33 jonasw Seve/SouL, I’m not subscribed to user, what is your general purpose message?
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10:53:57 Ge0rG https://www.tnhh.net/posts/google-talk.html
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11:57:49 pep. Nice, I haven't used hangouts enough to know how crap it is I guess
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12:01:20 zinid pep., there will be no Hangouts anymore
12:01:24 zinid not even Allo
12:02:00 zinid there will be Android Messages, the third Google's attempt to kill Facebook :)
12:04:47 Ge0rG zinid: third dozen?
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12:06:18 zinid yeah :)
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12:19:09 Ge0rG https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16351874 so true, so sad.
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12:21:52 jonasw so people are actually serious about paying with IM clients?!
12:21:53 jonasw holy fuck
12:22:01 daniel Ge0rG: is this post a meme? I feel like I have seen the exact same post in every xmpp related thread on HN
12:22:21 pep. jonasw: I seriously hope not :z
12:23:07 Zash ugh
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12:24:57 Alex Slack is te best example. I know many of companies which spend thousands of $ every month for IM
12:25:23 zinid well, XMPP only shows that open standards cannot compete with commercial protocols created by bussiness monsters
12:25:31 daniel > By 2016 nearly everyone could [...] syncing between multiple devices tell that to my WhatsApp
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12:26:20 Alex I would say it can, we just need some more good clients, and make it easier to install your own server. But we are having this discussion every couple of month ;-)
12:26:39 jonasw Alex, but we don’t have funding for "just […] some more good clients"
12:27:02 zinid > I would say it can, we just need some more good clients I think that's a contradiction: you cannot create a good client outside a monster like Google or Telegram
12:27:15 zinid Not now, it's too late
12:28:30 Alex its never too late
12:28:52 zinid sometimes it is ;)
12:29:25 zinid that's why I'm tired saying that we need to define a goal, a niche, and target it
12:29:31 zinid and forget about world domination
12:29:43 pep. Also if we always react to what platform do, we'll never be where these articles want us to be. Though I'm not sure I want to be anyway
12:31:09 Alex federation is our big advantage
12:31:39 pep. to whatever platformX do* (fling smartphone)
12:31:44 pep. fking*
12:31:45 zinid Alex, so how far did we get with this advantage?
12:31:57 Zash flinging smartphones through windows!
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12:33:51 pep. Zash: I'm not sure why I still inflict this on myself
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12:43:09 zinid so, who will write the payment transfer XEP?
12:43:15 zinid any volunteers? :)
12:43:32 jonasw I don’t believe in using IM for payment
12:43:34 jonasw so holy fuck no
12:44:55 zinid jonasw, that doesn't matter, we don't even have enough competence to write such a XEP
12:49:44 pep. What I was going to write. At least for me
12:50:27 daniel Well JabberCoin could generate some positive press
12:51:23 daniel Sometimes going with the flow is now a bad thing
12:51:27 zinid daniel, I'm fine with JabberCoin btw
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12:51:36 zinid daniel, we have 15k servers, we can spread it really fast
12:51:48 Zash Ugh
12:51:53 zinid bitcoin has "only" 9k server nodes
12:53:13 daniel zinid: but you can't get any transactions through 😀
12:53:37 jonasw blockchain!!! the solution to our identity-issue!!!k
12:53:44 Zash no no no noooooooo!
12:54:03 zinid guys, blockchain is not always as retarded as bitcoin, btw ;)
12:54:18 zinid you can choose whatever BFT protocol you want
12:54:47 jonasw hands some valerian to Zash
12:55:01 edhelas blockchain is not retarder, it's just that most of the people that are talking about it are retarded
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12:55:12 edhelas *retarded
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12:55:24 pep. Power consumption issues?
12:55:36 edhelas it's good for the economy
12:57:22 zinid pep., the "power consumption" is the issue of BFT protocols based on crypto computation, like bitcoin
12:58:19 pep. OK. Do you have an example where it's not the case? (Genuine question) links or stuff I can lookup
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13:01:28 zinid pep., only academic read, alas, for example: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-39028-4_9
13:01:50 zinid the paper itself is here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/efb1/a85cf540fd4f901a78100a2e450d484aebac.pdf
13:02:02 pep. Thanks
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13:58:40 mathieui https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16349897 discussion on the link Ge0rG posted earlier
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14:10:42 zinid by the way: > and make it easier to install your own server how do you imagine that? I think you still need to be a nerd to install it, you need a server with OS installed at least
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14:12:07 jonasw that can be solved with RPi images.
14:12:16 jonasw ~~but the DNS is tricky~~ ✎
14:12:20 jonasw but the DNS is still tricky ✏
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14:13:24 zinid also, XMPP servers are hard to configure because XMPP assumes complex servers (at least that was the initial moto)
14:14:15 Zash Another one of them tech cycles. Complexity oscilating between clients and servers
14:14:41 zinid jonasw, not sure about RPi, what target audience are we talking about? house wives or tech-inclined teenagers?
14:14:48 jonasw why not both?
14:15:20 zinid jonasw, because I don't think a house wife can afford to install and configure RPi ;)
14:16:06 Zash afford to?
14:16:17 zinid *is not able to
14:17:28 zinid damn, a typical (TM) internet user doesn't understand URLs, what are we talking about? :)
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14:17:56 jonasw zinid, do something else with your sunday except making me sad pls. kthxbai :)
14:20:00 zinid sorry
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14:33:40 Holger Oops.
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16:37:20 zinid > There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol
16:37:38 zinid always such types of comments on ycombinator in the corresponding IM-related thread ;)
16:37:42 mathieui I twitched a little while reading that
16:38:11 Zash Hm? Pro-Matrix as usual?
16:38:26 zinid ah, sorry, I didn't copy-paste it completely: There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol, that being the Matrix protocol (matrix.org).
16:38:39 Zash Who could have guessed?
16:39:11 zinid the only stuff comes at my mind in this moment is https://xkcd.com/927/
16:40:31 Zash We need more XEPs, so we can reach XEP-0927
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16:47:29 zinid > All these people bemoaning the loss of jabber. Xmpp is awful for mobile connections. There's a reason no one else is using it. Google tried the longest and they get the most flack for it.
16:47:34 zinid another perl
16:53:02 Zash Did they now?
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17:09:28 Seve/SouL Could someone ping the moderator of the JUser mailing list, please? I sent an email and I'm wating for it to be published.
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20:51:57 Seve/SouL So, I sent the following email https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/2018-February/007156.html to JUser, but that's because I didn't know where would fit best. Can you guys tell me if you think I should post it in some other mailing list, please?
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21:03:37 zinid not sure what solution they can find with their requirements
21:03:49 marc "Stickers are available"
21:03:50 marc LOL
21:03:56 zinid "FOSS server implementation"
21:04:37 zinid "not tightly controlled by a single company"
21:04:43 zinid so this is definitely not Matrix
21:04:47 Zash Writing requirements, step 1: Pick the solution you want. 2. Describe its properties. 3. Make up additional reasons to reject all other canditates.
21:05:37 SaltyBones marc, I consider enlarged emojis to be stickers...
21:06:17 marc SaltyBones, they use the term "emojis" in other places to I guess stickers are something else (see telegram)
21:06:18 zinid > Telegram- or Slack-like GUI available (e.g. user avatars next to messages, whitespace between messages)
21:06:34 daniel Juser? Is anyone even subscribed to that list?
21:07:11 jubalh has left
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21:07:50 daniel Also mailman archives are impossible to read on a mobile browser. Sigh
21:08:44 zinid yeah, mailman archives look like shit from 90s
21:09:02 daniel And that pastebin is even worse
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21:10:55 zinid from what I remember there used to be an XMPP server at kde.org, no?
21:10:58 Zash allowing text reflow and zoom tends to go a long way
21:11:17 Zash Bunneh: ping kde.org
21:11:19 Bunneh Zash: Pong from kde.org in 1.916 seconds
21:11:30 Zash Still appears to be
21:11:38 zinid Bunneh, version kde.org
21:11:39 Bunneh zinid: kde.org is running Prosody version 0.9.10 on Linux
21:11:43 zinid so what's the problem?
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21:12:00 Zash IRC users
21:12:23 Zash IRC users will never give up IRC (insert xkcd reference)
21:13:13 SaltyBones maybe they don't have to with a nice transport?
21:13:54 daniel Good bridges to other protocols seems like an oxymoron
21:15:07 zinid True, I was the author of some bridges (AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, Mail.ru) and it's a nightmare
21:15:21 Zash IRC is just enough subtly different from MUC to make it real tricky to translate.
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21:17:13 daniel Yes. Though I think IRC is possible if you really know what you are doing. But anything else is just bound to fail
21:17:19 SaltyBones is Bunneh: https://xkcd.com/1782/
21:17:44 daniel That's coming from someone who just implemented an SMTP2xmpp gateway. Lol
21:19:14 SaltyBones daniel, I'm waiting for the FAX2XMPP gateway to really make fun of...
21:20:01 Zash I think that to get MUC to work from an IRC perspective, you have to constrain it, eg enforce the same nickname in every channel.
21:20:18 Zash Probably other things that I can't think of right now
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21:20:44 zinid I touched IRC last time in 2004 or so, LOL
21:21:14 daniel Zash: yes there is a lot of trickery to be made. But I think it would be possible.
21:21:53 SaltyBones Hm...maybe the transport should be the other way round.
21:22:04 SaltyBones Offer an IRC server that connects to MUCs.
21:22:33 Zash SaltyBones: There was talk, long long ago, about adding an XMPP s2s interface to Freenode.
21:23:06 zinid Zash, and? XKCD-1782 happens?
21:23:17 Zash -xkcd 1782
21:24:21 zinid I think trying to force users to migrate from IRC to XMPP is the same as trying to do this from XMPP to Matrix
21:26:11 zinid https://community.kde.org/Matrix
21:26:12 zinid LOL
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21:26:27 zinid > One of the most interesting features of Matrix is the native support for bridges to other protocols, such as IRC
21:26:33 zinid marketing bullshit
21:27:18 SaltyBones zinid, marketing bullshit makes the world go round
21:27:43 Zash zinid: Especially considering that was the original purpose of Jabber, way back in the day
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21:28:38 zinid SaltyBones, "world go round" = "spinning wheels"?
21:28:48 Zash 1999 called and said it wasn't that great an idea after all.
21:29:27 daniel zinid: unfortunately a lot of people believe this bullshit. This plays a huge part in the popularity of matrix
21:29:42 zinid daniel, I know :)
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21:30:19 daniel But you can probably just wait 5 years and see it fail
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21:31:01 zinid I thought they already did, but then was bought by some obscure cryptocrappy company
21:31:34 daniel So only sad thing is the wasted resources that go into something that is bound to fail
21:32:19 daniel I'm not talking about the money or the venture capital they receive - I don't care about that - but the volunteers that work for them
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21:33:20 zinid daniel, I frankly don't understand the volunteers, why they believe this shit about "open protocol", but whatever
21:34:00 daniel Well people do stupid things. That's just how it is
21:34:16 zinid yeah ;)
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21:38:11 daniel I mean think of xmpp what you want. But matrix didn't solve any of the actual problems xmpp has aside from putting a lot of venture capital into a few clients that look somewhat polished on the surface
21:38:36 daniel You could have just as well put the same money into some xmpp clients
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21:38:41 SaltyBones daniel, the imho only thing that matrix has is somewhat working calling.
21:39:02 SaltyBones And the aforementioned marketing...
21:39:15 daniel SaltyBones: sure. That's what I meant by somewhat polished clients.
21:39:32 daniel Calling is basically a client feature
21:40:10 daniel Take a third of the resources they had and you could have voip in xmpp clients as well
21:40:17 zinid no surprise, they have 11 full-time programmers, and how many devs do XMPP clients have?
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21:43:07 daniel I mean from an end user perspective that's cool and all. If you are looking for an IM solution that runs in your web browser and consumes like 2 gigabytes of RAM and that you can do voice calls with then why not use matrix
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21:45:00 daniel </rant>
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21:46:01 SaltyBones daniel, since I don't know ANYTHING about the topic please forgive the naive question: Why do video calls not work in Conversations?
21:46:16 marc SaltyBones, because it is not implemented ;)
21:46:23 zinid and complex
21:46:30 marc zinid, depends
21:46:39 marc I have a PoC
21:47:14 daniel marc: are you still working on that per conversation media thing by the way?
21:47:30 marc daniel, what media thing?
21:47:54 marc ah, the shared media thing?
21:47:56 zinid marc, well, it's not complex for me as well (because I wrote sip proxy, stun/turn server and an RTP translator/mixer) ;)
21:47:57 daniel Show images for that conversation
21:47:59 daniel Yes
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21:48:28 zinid marc, but I can see how hard to a regular developer voip would be
21:48:43 daniel zinid: the UX is a pain
21:48:54 daniel Or the ui
21:49:03 zinid daniel, probably, I'm not a gui guy, so cannot say anything
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21:49:27 marc zinid, the big problem for me was/is the media information mapping and some android stuff
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21:50:26 marc daniel, I would like to improve it and use the database backend etc. but at the moment I'm working on xep-401
21:50:51 daniel The thing for me is that I very rarely call people anyway. And if I do I just use my phone.
21:51:54 zinid daniel, same for me, but I like voip just as a technology, so I have fun just implementing this stuff (server-side)
21:52:46 zinid and if you don't use it and don't like it a lot, then of course there will be a lot of pain, and the resulting quality would be suboptimal, to say the least ;)
21:54:09 daniel Given that xmpp is usually 10 years behind the rest of the world we might as well skip the voip thing and start developing VR stufd
21:54:17 daniel *stuff
21:54:22 zinid LOL
21:54:32 zinid we should finish the blockchain first!
21:55:14 Zash A blockchain transport!!
21:59:21 daniel I mean like meeting in a virtual pub or Café I could actually get behind. If it somehow transfers you facial expression into your virtual avatar or something like that. That could actually be a pretty cool way of meeting people that is way more personal than a telephone call
21:59:22 daniel And you could pay with crypto currency in that virtual pub
21:59:22 daniel So win/win
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22:07:08 SaltyBones daniel, regarding calling people: I agree, outside of calling the tax office I never call anybody. I do use video calls and slack conferences, though...
22:07:43 SaltyBones So it either needs video or screen sharing.... :)
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22:18:24 marc For the record, we should define the XMPP URI (omemo-sid-...) for in XEP-0384
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22:18:38 marc I would suggest something like xmpp:foo@bar.com?roster;omemo-sid-...
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