Seve/SouL, I’m not subscribed to user, what is your general purpose message?
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Ge0rG
https://www.tnhh.net/posts/google-talk.html
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pep.
Nice, I haven't used hangouts enough to know how crap it is I guess
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zinid
pep., there will be no Hangouts anymore
zinid
not even Allo
zinid
there will be Android Messages, the third Google's attempt to kill Facebook :)
Ge0rG
zinid: third dozen?
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zinid
yeah :)
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Ge0rG
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16351874 so true, so sad.
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jonasw
so people are actually serious about paying with IM clients?!
jonasw
holy fuck
daniel
Ge0rG: is this post a meme? I feel like I have seen the exact same post in every xmpp related thread on HN
pep.
jonasw: I seriously hope not :z
Zash
ugh
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Alex
Slack is te best example. I know many of companies which spend thousands of $ every month for IM
zinid
well, XMPP only shows that open standards cannot compete with commercial protocols created by bussiness monsters
daniel
> By 2016 nearly everyone could [...] syncing between multiple devices
tell that to my WhatsApp
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Alex
I would say it can, we just need some more good clients, and make it easier to install your own server. But we are having this discussion every couple of month ;-)
jonasw
Alex, but we don’t have funding for "just […] some more good clients"
zinid
> I would say it can, we just need some more good clients
I think that's a contradiction: you cannot create a good client outside a monster like Google or Telegram
zinid
Not now, it's too late
Alex
its never too late
zinid
sometimes it is ;)
zinid
that's why I'm tired saying that we need to define a goal, a niche, and target it
zinid
and forget about world domination
pep.
Also if we always react to what platform do, we'll never be where these articles want us to be. Though I'm not sure I want to be anyway
Alex
federation is our big advantage
pep.
to whatever platformX do* (fling smartphone)
pep.
fking*
zinid
Alex, so how far did we get with this advantage?
Zash
flinging smartphones through windows!
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pep.
Zash: I'm not sure why I still inflict this on myself
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zinid
so, who will write the payment transfer XEP?
zinid
any volunteers? :)
jonasw
I don’t believe in using IM for payment
jonasw
so holy fuck no
zinid
jonasw, that doesn't matter, we don't even have enough competence to write such a XEP
pep.
What I was going to write. At least for me
daniel
Well JabberCoin could generate some positive press
daniel
Sometimes going with the flow is now a bad thing
zinid
daniel, I'm fine with JabberCoin btw
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zinid
daniel, we have 15k servers, we can spread it really fast
Zash
Ugh
zinid
bitcoin has "only" 9k server nodes
daniel
zinid: but you can't get any transactions through 😀
jonasw
blockchain!!! the solution to our identity-issue!!!k
Zash
no no no noooooooo!
zinid
guys, blockchain is not always as retarded as bitcoin, btw ;)
zinid
you can choose whatever BFT protocol you want
jonaswhands some valerian to Zash
edhelas
blockchain is not retarder, it's just that most of the people that are talking about it are retarded
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edhelas
*retarded
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pep.
Power consumption issues?
edhelas
it's good for the economy
zinid
pep., the "power consumption" is the issue of BFT protocols based on crypto computation, like bitcoin
pep.
OK. Do you have an example where it's not the case? (Genuine question) links or stuff I can lookup
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zinid
pep., only academic read, alas, for example: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-39028-4_9
zinid
the paper itself is here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/efb1/a85cf540fd4f901a78100a2e450d484aebac.pdf
pep.
Thanks
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mathieui
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16349897 discussion on the link Ge0rG posted earlier
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zinid
by the way:
> and make it easier to install your own server
how do you imagine that? I think you still need to be a nerd to install it, you need a server with OS installed at least
also, XMPP servers are hard to configure because XMPP assumes complex servers (at least that was the initial moto)
Zash
Another one of them tech cycles. Complexity oscilating between clients and servers
zinid
jonasw, not sure about RPi, what target audience are we talking about? house wives or tech-inclined teenagers?
jonasw
why not both?
zinid
jonasw, because I don't think a house wife can afford to install and configure RPi ;)
Zash
afford to?
zinid
*is not able to
zinid
damn, a typical (TM) internet user doesn't understand URLs, what are we talking about? :)
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jonasw
zinid, do something else with your sunday except making me sad pls. kthxbai :)
zinid
sorry
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Holger
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Holger
Oops.
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zinid
> There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol
zinid
always such types of comments on ycombinator in the corresponding IM-related thread ;)
mathieui
I twitched a little while reading that
Zash
Hm? Pro-Matrix as usual?
zinid
ah, sorry, I didn't copy-paste it completely:
There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol, that being the Matrix protocol (matrix.org).
Zash
Who could have guessed?
zinid
the only stuff comes at my mind in this moment is https://xkcd.com/927/
Zash
We need more XEPs, so we can reach XEP-0927
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zinid
> All these people bemoaning the loss of jabber. Xmpp is awful for mobile connections. There's a reason no one else is using it. Google tried the longest and they get the most flack for it.
zinid
another perl
Zash
Did they now?
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Seve/SouL
Could someone ping the moderator of the JUser mailing list, please? I sent an email and I'm wating for it to be published.
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Seve/SouL
So, I sent the following email https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/2018-February/007156.html to JUser, but that's because I didn't know where would fit best. Can you guys tell me if you think I should post it in some other mailing list, please?
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zinid
not sure what solution they can find with their requirements
marc
"Stickers are available"
marc
LOL
zinid
"FOSS server implementation"
zinid
"not tightly controlled by a single company"
zinid
so this is definitely not Matrix
Zash
Writing requirements, step 1: Pick the solution you want. 2. Describe its properties. 3. Make up additional reasons to reject all other canditates.
SaltyBones
marc, I consider enlarged emojis to be stickers...
marc
SaltyBones, they use the term "emojis" in other places to I guess stickers are something else (see telegram)
zinid
> Telegram- or Slack-like GUI available (e.g. user avatars next to messages, whitespace between messages)
daniel
Juser? Is anyone even subscribed to that list?
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daniel
Also mailman archives are impossible to read on a mobile browser. Sigh
zinid
yeah, mailman archives look like shit from 90s
daniel
And that pastebin is even worse
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zinid
from what I remember there used to be an XMPP server at kde.org, no?
Zash
allowing text reflow and zoom tends to go a long way
Zash
Bunneh: ping kde.org
Bunneh
Zash: Pong from kde.org in 1.916 seconds
Zash
Still appears to be
zinid
Bunneh, version kde.org
Bunneh
zinid: kde.org is running Prosody version 0.9.10 on Linux
zinid
so what's the problem?
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Zash
IRC users
Zash
IRC users will never give up IRC (insert xkcd reference)
SaltyBones
maybe they don't have to with a nice transport?
daniel
Good bridges to other protocols seems like an oxymoron
zinid
True, I was the author of some bridges (AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, Mail.ru) and it's a nightmare
Zash
IRC is just enough subtly different from MUC to make it real tricky to translate.
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daniel
Yes. Though I think IRC is possible if you really know what you are doing. But anything else is just bound to fail
SaltyBonesis Bunneh: https://xkcd.com/1782/
daniel
That's coming from someone who just implemented an SMTP2xmpp gateway. Lol
SaltyBones
daniel, I'm waiting for the FAX2XMPP gateway to really make fun of...
Zash
I think that to get MUC to work from an IRC perspective, you have to constrain it, eg enforce the same nickname in every channel.
Zash
Probably other things that I can't think of right now
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zinid
I touched IRC last time in 2004 or so, LOL
daniel
Zash: yes there is a lot of trickery to be made. But I think it would be possible.
SaltyBones
Hm...maybe the transport should be the other way round.
SaltyBones
Offer an IRC server that connects to MUCs.
Zash
SaltyBones: There was talk, long long ago, about adding an XMPP s2s interface to Freenode.
zinid
Zash, and? XKCD-1782 happens?
Zash
-xkcd 1782
zinid
I think trying to force users to migrate from IRC to XMPP is the same as trying to do this from XMPP to Matrix
zinid
https://community.kde.org/Matrix
zinid
LOL
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zinid
> One of the most interesting features of Matrix is the native support for bridges to other protocols, such as IRC
zinid
marketing bullshit
SaltyBones
zinid, marketing bullshit makes the world go round
Zash
zinid: Especially considering that was the original purpose of Jabber, way back in the day
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zinid
SaltyBones, "world go round" = "spinning wheels"?
Zash
1999 called and said it wasn't that great an idea after all.
daniel
zinid: unfortunately a lot of people believe this bullshit. This plays a huge part in the popularity of matrix
zinid
daniel, I know :)
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daniel
But you can probably just wait 5 years and see it fail
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zinid
I thought they already did, but then was bought by some obscure cryptocrappy company
daniel
So only sad thing is the wasted resources that go into something that is bound to fail
daniel
I'm not talking about the money or the venture capital they receive - I don't care about that - but the volunteers that work for them
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zinid
daniel, I frankly don't understand the volunteers, why they believe this shit about "open protocol", but whatever
daniel
Well people do stupid things. That's just how it is
zinid
yeah ;)
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daniel
I mean think of xmpp what you want. But matrix didn't solve any of the actual problems xmpp has aside from putting a lot of venture capital into a few clients that look somewhat polished on the surface
daniel
You could have just as well put the same money into some xmpp clients
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SaltyBones
daniel, the imho only thing that matrix has is somewhat working calling.
SaltyBones
And the aforementioned marketing...
daniel
SaltyBones: sure. That's what I meant by somewhat polished clients.
daniel
Calling is basically a client feature
daniel
Take a third of the resources they had and you could have voip in xmpp clients as well
zinid
no surprise, they have 11 full-time programmers, and how many devs do XMPP clients have?
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daniel
I mean from an end user perspective that's cool and all. If you are looking for an IM solution that runs in your web browser and consumes like 2 gigabytes of RAM and that you can do voice calls with then why not use matrix
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daniel
</rant>
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SaltyBones
daniel, since I don't know ANYTHING about the topic please forgive the naive question: Why do video calls not work in Conversations?
marc
SaltyBones, because it is not implemented ;)
zinid
and complex
marc
zinid, depends
marc
I have a PoC
daniel
marc: are you still working on that per conversation media thing by the way?
marc
daniel, what media thing?
marc
ah, the shared media thing?
zinid
marc, well, it's not complex for me as well (because I wrote sip proxy, stun/turn server and an RTP translator/mixer) ;)
daniel
Show images for that conversation
daniel
Yes
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zinid
marc, but I can see how hard to a regular developer voip would be
daniel
zinid: the UX is a pain
daniel
Or the ui
zinid
daniel, probably, I'm not a gui guy, so cannot say anything
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marc
zinid, the big problem for me was/is the media information mapping and some android stuff
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marc
daniel, I would like to improve it and use the database backend etc. but at the moment I'm working on xep-401
daniel
The thing for me is that I very rarely call people anyway. And if I do I just use my phone.
zinid
daniel, same for me, but I like voip just as a technology, so I have fun just implementing this stuff (server-side)
zinid
and if you don't use it and don't like it a lot, then of course there will be a lot of pain, and the resulting quality would be suboptimal, to say the least ;)
daniel
Given that xmpp is usually 10 years behind the rest of the world we might as well skip the voip thing and start developing VR stufd
daniel
*stuff
zinid
LOL
zinid
we should finish the blockchain first!
Zash
A blockchain transport!!
daniel
I mean like meeting in a virtual pub or Café I could actually get behind. If it somehow transfers you facial expression into your virtual avatar or something like that. That could actually be a pretty cool way of meeting people that is way more personal than a telephone call
daniel
And you could pay with crypto currency in that virtual pub
daniel
So win/win
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SaltyBones
daniel, regarding calling people: I agree, outside of calling the tax office I never call anybody. I do use video calls and slack conferences, though...
SaltyBones
So it either needs video or screen sharing.... :)
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marc
For the record, we should define the XMPP URI (omemo-sid-...) for in XEP-0384
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marc
I would suggest something like xmpp:foo@bar.com?roster;omemo-sid-...