Seve/SouLDo whe have any "general purpose" mailing list?
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Seve/SouLI guess JUser will do
Seve/SouLI hope many people is subscribed there
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jonaswSeve/SouL, I’m not subscribed to user, what is your general purpose message?
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Ge0rGhttps://www.tnhh.net/posts/google-talk.html
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pep.Nice, I haven't used hangouts enough to know how crap it is I guess
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zinidpep., there will be no Hangouts anymore
zinidnot even Allo
zinidthere will be Android Messages, the third Google's attempt to kill Facebook :)
Ge0rGzinid: third dozen?
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zinidyeah :)
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Ge0rGhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16351874 so true, so sad.
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jonaswso people are actually serious about paying with IM clients?!
jonaswholy fuck
danielGe0rG: is this post a meme? I feel like I have seen the exact same post in every xmpp related thread on HN
pep.jonasw: I seriously hope not :z
Zashugh
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AlexSlack is te best example. I know many of companies which spend thousands of $ every month for IM
zinidwell, XMPP only shows that open standards cannot compete with commercial protocols created by bussiness monsters
daniel> By 2016 nearly everyone could [...] syncing between multiple devices
tell that to my WhatsApp
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AlexI would say it can, we just need some more good clients, and make it easier to install your own server. But we are having this discussion every couple of month ;-)
jonaswAlex, but we don’t have funding for "just […] some more good clients"
zinid> I would say it can, we just need some more good clients
I think that's a contradiction: you cannot create a good client outside a monster like Google or Telegram
zinidNot now, it's too late
Alexits never too late
zinidsometimes it is ;)
zinidthat's why I'm tired saying that we need to define a goal, a niche, and target it
zinidand forget about world domination
pep.Also if we always react to what platform do, we'll never be where these articles want us to be. Though I'm not sure I want to be anyway
Alexfederation is our big advantage
pep.to whatever platformX do* (fling smartphone)
pep.fking*
zinidAlex, so how far did we get with this advantage?
Zashflinging smartphones through windows!
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pep.Zash: I'm not sure why I still inflict this on myself
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zinidso, who will write the payment transfer XEP?
zinidany volunteers? :)
jonaswI don’t believe in using IM for payment
jonaswso holy fuck no
zinidjonasw, that doesn't matter, we don't even have enough competence to write such a XEP
pep.What I was going to write. At least for me
danielWell JabberCoin could generate some positive press
danielSometimes going with the flow is now a bad thing
ziniddaniel, I'm fine with JabberCoin btw
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ziniddaniel, we have 15k servers, we can spread it really fast
ZashUgh
zinidbitcoin has "only" 9k server nodes
danielzinid: but you can't get any transactions through 😀
jonaswblockchain!!! the solution to our identity-issue!!!k
Zashno no no noooooooo!
zinidguys, blockchain is not always as retarded as bitcoin, btw ;)
zinidyou can choose whatever BFT protocol you want
jonaswhands some valerian to Zash
edhelasblockchain is not retarder, it's just that most of the people that are talking about it are retarded
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edhelas*retarded
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pep.Power consumption issues?
edhelasit's good for the economy
zinidpep., the "power consumption" is the issue of BFT protocols based on crypto computation, like bitcoin
pep.OK. Do you have an example where it's not the case? (Genuine question) links or stuff I can lookup
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zinidpep., only academic read, alas, for example: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-39028-4_9
zinidthe paper itself is here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/efb1/a85cf540fd4f901a78100a2e450d484aebac.pdf
pep.Thanks
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mathieuihttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16349897 discussion on the link Ge0rG posted earlier
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zinidby the way:
> and make it easier to install your own server
how do you imagine that? I think you still need to be a nerd to install it, you need a server with OS installed at least
zinidalso, XMPP servers are hard to configure because XMPP assumes complex servers (at least that was the initial moto)
ZashAnother one of them tech cycles. Complexity oscilating between clients and servers
zinidjonasw, not sure about RPi, what target audience are we talking about? house wives or tech-inclined teenagers?
jonaswwhy not both?
zinidjonasw, because I don't think a house wife can afford to install and configure RPi ;)
Zashafford to?
zinid*is not able to
ziniddamn, a typical (TM) internet user doesn't understand URLs, what are we talking about? :)
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jonaswzinid, do something else with your sunday except making me sad pls. kthxbai :)
zinidsorry
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HolgerOops.
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zinid> There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol
zinidalways such types of comments on ycombinator in the corresponding IM-related thread ;)
mathieuiI twitched a little while reading that
ZashHm? Pro-Matrix as usual?
zinidah, sorry, I didn't copy-paste it completely:
There is at least one major attempt at addressing this fragmentation with a modern protocol, that being the Matrix protocol (matrix.org).
ZashWho could have guessed?
zinidthe only stuff comes at my mind in this moment is https://xkcd.com/927/
ZashWe need more XEPs, so we can reach XEP-0927
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zinid> All these people bemoaning the loss of jabber. Xmpp is awful for mobile connections. There's a reason no one else is using it. Google tried the longest and they get the most flack for it.
zinidanother perl
ZashDid they now?
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Seve/SouLCould someone ping the moderator of the JUser mailing list, please? I sent an email and I'm wating for it to be published.
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Seve/SouLSo, I sent the following email https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/2018-February/007156.html to JUser, but that's because I didn't know where would fit best. Can you guys tell me if you think I should post it in some other mailing list, please?
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zinidnot sure what solution they can find with their requirements
marc"Stickers are available"
marcLOL
zinid"FOSS server implementation"
zinid"not tightly controlled by a single company"
zinidso this is definitely not Matrix
ZashWriting requirements, step 1: Pick the solution you want. 2. Describe its properties. 3. Make up additional reasons to reject all other canditates.
SaltyBonesmarc, I consider enlarged emojis to be stickers...
marcSaltyBones, they use the term "emojis" in other places to I guess stickers are something else (see telegram)
zinid> Telegram- or Slack-like GUI available (e.g. user avatars next to messages, whitespace between messages)
danielJuser? Is anyone even subscribed to that list?
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danielAlso mailman archives are impossible to read on a mobile browser. Sigh
zinidyeah, mailman archives look like shit from 90s
danielAnd that pastebin is even worse
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zinidfrom what I remember there used to be an XMPP server at kde.org, no?
Zashallowing text reflow and zoom tends to go a long way
ZashBunneh: ping kde.org
BunnehZash: Pong from kde.org in 1.916 seconds
ZashStill appears to be
zinidBunneh, version kde.org
Bunnehzinid: kde.org is running Prosody version 0.9.10 on Linux
zinidso what's the problem?
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ZashIRC users
ZashIRC users will never give up IRC (insert xkcd reference)
SaltyBonesmaybe they don't have to with a nice transport?
danielGood bridges to other protocols seems like an oxymoron
zinidTrue, I was the author of some bridges (AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, Mail.ru) and it's a nightmare
ZashIRC is just enough subtly different from MUC to make it real tricky to translate.
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danielYes. Though I think IRC is possible if you really know what you are doing. But anything else is just bound to fail
SaltyBonesis Bunneh: https://xkcd.com/1782/
danielThat's coming from someone who just implemented an SMTP2xmpp gateway. Lol
SaltyBonesdaniel, I'm waiting for the FAX2XMPP gateway to really make fun of...
ZashI think that to get MUC to work from an IRC perspective, you have to constrain it, eg enforce the same nickname in every channel.
ZashProbably other things that I can't think of right now
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zinidI touched IRC last time in 2004 or so, LOL
danielZash: yes there is a lot of trickery to be made. But I think it would be possible.
SaltyBonesHm...maybe the transport should be the other way round.
SaltyBonesOffer an IRC server that connects to MUCs.
ZashSaltyBones: There was talk, long long ago, about adding an XMPP s2s interface to Freenode.
zinidZash, and? XKCD-1782 happens?
Zash-xkcd 1782
zinidI think trying to force users to migrate from IRC to XMPP is the same as trying to do this from XMPP to Matrix
zinidhttps://community.kde.org/Matrix
zinidLOL
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zinid> One of the most interesting features of Matrix is the native support for bridges to other protocols, such as IRC
zinidmarketing bullshit
SaltyBoneszinid, marketing bullshit makes the world go round
Zashzinid: Especially considering that was the original purpose of Jabber, way back in the day
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zinidSaltyBones, "world go round" = "spinning wheels"?
Zash1999 called and said it wasn't that great an idea after all.
danielzinid: unfortunately a lot of people believe this bullshit. This plays a huge part in the popularity of matrix
ziniddaniel, I know :)
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danielBut you can probably just wait 5 years and see it fail
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zinidI thought they already did, but then was bought by some obscure cryptocrappy company
danielSo only sad thing is the wasted resources that go into something that is bound to fail
danielI'm not talking about the money or the venture capital they receive - I don't care about that - but the volunteers that work for them
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ziniddaniel, I frankly don't understand the volunteers, why they believe this shit about "open protocol", but whatever
danielWell people do stupid things. That's just how it is
zinidyeah ;)
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danielI mean think of xmpp what you want. But matrix didn't solve any of the actual problems xmpp has aside from putting a lot of venture capital into a few clients that look somewhat polished on the surface
danielYou could have just as well put the same money into some xmpp clients
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SaltyBonesdaniel, the imho only thing that matrix has is somewhat working calling.
SaltyBonesAnd the aforementioned marketing...
danielSaltyBones: sure. That's what I meant by somewhat polished clients.
danielCalling is basically a client feature
danielTake a third of the resources they had and you could have voip in xmpp clients as well
zinidno surprise, they have 11 full-time programmers, and how many devs do XMPP clients have?
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danielI mean from an end user perspective that's cool and all. If you are looking for an IM solution that runs in your web browser and consumes like 2 gigabytes of RAM and that you can do voice calls with then why not use matrix
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daniel</rant>
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SaltyBonesdaniel, since I don't know ANYTHING about the topic please forgive the naive question: Why do video calls not work in Conversations?
marcSaltyBones, because it is not implemented ;)
zinidand complex
marczinid, depends
marcI have a PoC
danielmarc: are you still working on that per conversation media thing by the way?
marcdaniel, what media thing?
marcah, the shared media thing?
zinidmarc, well, it's not complex for me as well (because I wrote sip proxy, stun/turn server and an RTP translator/mixer) ;)
danielShow images for that conversation
danielYes
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zinidmarc, but I can see how hard to a regular developer voip would be
danielzinid: the UX is a pain
danielOr the ui
ziniddaniel, probably, I'm not a gui guy, so cannot say anything
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marczinid, the big problem for me was/is the media information mapping and some android stuff
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marcdaniel, I would like to improve it and use the database backend etc. but at the moment I'm working on xep-401
danielThe thing for me is that I very rarely call people anyway. And if I do I just use my phone.
ziniddaniel, same for me, but I like voip just as a technology, so I have fun just implementing this stuff (server-side)
zinidand if you don't use it and don't like it a lot, then of course there will be a lot of pain, and the resulting quality would be suboptimal, to say the least ;)
danielGiven that xmpp is usually 10 years behind the rest of the world we might as well skip the voip thing and start developing VR stufd
daniel*stuff
zinidLOL
zinidwe should finish the blockchain first!
ZashA blockchain transport!!
danielI mean like meeting in a virtual pub or Café I could actually get behind. If it somehow transfers you facial expression into your virtual avatar or something like that. That could actually be a pretty cool way of meeting people that is way more personal than a telephone call
danielAnd you could pay with crypto currency in that virtual pub
danielSo win/win
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SaltyBonesdaniel, regarding calling people: I agree, outside of calling the tax office I never call anybody. I do use video calls and slack conferences, though...
SaltyBonesSo it either needs video or screen sharing.... :)
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marcFor the record, we should define the XMPP URI (omemo-sid-...) for in XEP-0384
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marcI would suggest something like xmpp:foo@bar.com?roster;omemo-sid-...