XSF Discussion - 2018-02-13

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  201. Link Mauve

    “08:13:27 zinid> the problem is that now I'm not sure if other clients don't break though”, make it opt-in, for example with a disco#info feature, that way the MUC service will only send its own presence to clients which support it.

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  203. zinid


  204. Link Mauve

    It was about MUCs sending a presence to participants.

  205. Link Mauve

    Sorry, I’m backlogging.

  206. Link Mauve

    This should be specified too, at some point. ^^

  207. zinid


  208. zinid

    where guys you find these fancy words 🙂

  209. zinid

    none of my dictionaries know about it

  210. zinid

    optional I guess

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  212. Link Mauve

    zinid, in the MUC join presence, if the caps include this one feature then you can send the MUC presence, otherwise you have to assume it’s an older client and it won’t support that.

  213. Guus

    opt-in means "not included by default, unless specifically asked to be included"

  214. rion

    zinid: btw. I've commited new muc roster in Psi. so it should handle it. But of course it may fail some other way with this new presences =)

  215. Link Mauve

    zinid, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt-in

  216. zinid

    rion, ok

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  218. Link Mauve

    Same for streaming stream-features, if it were negociated it would be fine to send them as a “nonza” whenever they change.

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  229. SaltyBones

    my turn, what's a nonza?

  230. zinid

    SaltyBones: not a stanza

  231. remko

    level-1 stream element like a stanza, but not a stanza

  232. remko

    so any direct child of <stream:stream> that isn't iq/presence/message

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  239. Dave Cridland

    SaltyBones, Nonza is a confusing made-up word that some people mistakenly think makes our specifications clearer.

  240. remko


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  242. edhelas

    nonzas are rare elements that you can find in some streams, they are difficult to observe and some developpers are still discussing about their existence

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  257. jonasw

    SaltyBones, cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0360.html

  258. jonasw

    Dave Cridland, I don’t find non-stanza stream-level elements very useful either ;-)

  259. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, Maybe, but it didn't take an entire spec to explain.

  260. SaltyBones

    Not sure if this is useful but for those who speak german or want to use google translate: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/messenger-matrix-das-xmpp-fuer-hobby-admins/

  261. SaltyBones

    The article argues why matrix is better than xmpp.

  262. jonasw

    Dave Cridland, I don’t think that we necessarily need a spec, but I think that having a term for that is useful; and in the end, all terms are kind of made up (like stanza); I’m not sure where your argument against that term comes from.

  263. Dave Cridland

    SaltyBones, Anything useful there?

  264. SaltyBones

    Dave Cridland, the most useful thing, imho, is the statement that $all_his_other_problems are due to his incompetence at setting up prosody correctly.

  265. SaltyBones

    Which, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard.

  266. Seve

    I'm guessing bad clients are also an argument in that article.

  267. jonasw

    is it though?

  268. SaltyBones

    jonasw, yes? :)

  269. Dave Cridland

    SaltyBones, It is, in part, the SRV records.

  270. jonasw

    you don’t even need those

  271. SaltyBones

    Seve, of course they are, especially iOS

  272. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes it is.

  273. SaltyBones

    jonasw, just remember jabber without mam and stream management...

  274. jonasw

    SaltyBones, hm, good ponit

  275. jonasw

    I always forget about the more advanced features

  276. SaltyBones

    and setting up ejabberd...I mean I have it running but whenever I do more than use ejabberdctl I get stuck in the erlang shell :p

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  278. SaltyBones

    jonasw, the problem is they are not more advanced :) They are basic to the point of message loss without them

  279. jonasw

    SaltyBones, yeah, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be basic

  280. jonasw

    but I always forget about them when thinking about how difficult it is to set up a server

  281. jonasw

    (even though with 0.10, MAM should not be that much of a trouble anymore. isn’t it in core even now?)

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  283. Guus

    Want to show you how to setup a server in under a minute? 0:-)

  284. Guus

    (sans SRV records, granted)

  285. SaltyBones

    Well, yes? :)

  286. SaltyBones

    Make a youtube video!

  287. SaltyBones

    I'll post it under that article. :)

  288. Guus

    I actually made a video

  289. Guus

    15 minutes

  290. SaltyBones


  291. Guus

    but it also gives you an EC2 setup and integration with our jitsi meet plugin

  292. Guus


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  294. Guus

    bah, we migrated forums, and that thread is lost to me

  295. Guus

    (more searching)

  296. Seve


  297. Guus


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  299. jonasw

    when a video opens with VLC, which you virtually never use and you’re confronted with this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/EjZ7corpc2V-3hCD-slkA9f4XxK0w4uxoWP1BapKB3k.png

  300. SaltyBones

    "Don’t blindly follow these instructions, without giving thought to security, interoperability and performance."

  301. jonasw

    Guus, how about starting the video with a quick demo of what the end product will be able to do?

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  303. Guus

    SaltyBones: obligatory disclaimer.

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  305. Guus

    jonasw: yeah, it can be improved upon. But this doubles as an instruction for one of my customers that needed the EC2 bit as well.

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  308. Guus

    jonasw: also: I like that ascii-art encoding on vlc :)

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  310. SaltyBones

    Guus, I can post this but I still think a 1 Minute thing would be very cool. :)

  311. Guus

    SaltyBones: yeah, I think this one is to long

  312. SaltyBones

    I mean...not sure if you can actually do it in a minute .. ;)

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  314. Guus

    I'm 5 minutes in, and I am explaining about nightly builds :/

  315. jonasw

    SaltyBones, hm, I have ansible roles which work on debian jessie and stretch for prosody (both from package and from hg)

  316. jonasw

    maybe that’s worth sharing?

  317. jonasw

    but I think I write roles in a style which is very different from what everybody else using ansible does, so I’ve always been hesitant to share them

  318. Guus

    SaltyBones: 1 minute is hard while talking about it. But, to install: download platform specific installer, double-click installer, open browser and visit http://localhost:9090, fill out 4 screens, done.

  319. Guus

    depending on your download speed, you can do that in 1 minute.

  320. SaltyBones

    Guus, remind me tonight and I will try ;)

  321. Guus

    in my video, skip to 7:30

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  323. SaltyBones

    jonasw, if they work I think it would still be nice

  324. jonasw

    they *do* work. for me. they depend on my own homebrew ferm role though

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  327. zinid

    > Which, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard 1. Postulate that servers are complex in XMPP by design 2. Cry they are hard to configure

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  329. jonasw

    zinid, browsers are complex too, but need 0 configuration.

  330. jonasw

    your argument is invalid :)

  331. zinid

    jonasw, yeah, that's why I have to always configure them

  332. daniel

    jonasw: my browser needs a lot of configuration to be barely usable

  333. jonasw

    daniel, sure, but you’re a poweruser

  334. zinid

    also, you can install a server by entering a hostname and never configure it, no problem

  335. jonasw

    most what other people do is install an ad-blocker if anything and be done with it

  336. zinid

    half will not be working, but the same is in browsers

  337. Seve


  338. Seve

    I wonder how you use browsers that you have to configure them

  339. zinid

    Seve, and I wonder how the comparison holds?

  340. zinid

    you need DNS, opened ports and stuff like that for xmpp server

  341. zinid

    you don't need all this for browsers

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  343. zinid

    ah, and certfiles

  344. Seve


  345. zinid

    also, when I often hear "hard to configure", that means the software is compiled from master branch, installed in some obscure way with an obscure configuration file from stackoverflow

  346. daniel

    But ejabberd is fairly easy to install these days

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  349. zinid

    well, it still doesn't have gui configurator, so a lot of admins pass by

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  352. jonasw

    zinid, to be fair, when I see a gui configurator, I pass by

  353. jonasw


  354. daniel

    I was about to say the same thing

  355. zinid

    jonasw, that's why you need to define audience first 🙂

  356. jonasw

    I don’t know how matrix is configured

  357. SaltyBones

    click on the link ;)

  358. Ge0rG

    None of this is going to solve the other problem shown by Roland. UI inconsistency and horrible iOS user experience

  359. jonasw

    SaltyBones, that’s not good for my blood pressure

  360. daniel

    I think the recommended approach for the matrix server is to curl pipe something to sh to install node and npm

  361. daniel

    And then do some weird node magic to install something that might still be missing dependencies

  362. daniel

    And that will break on the next OS Upgrade

  363. Guus

    daniel: that's true for 90% of all node.js projects, for me at least.

  364. SaltyBones

    daniel, it seems he is using python stuff

  365. SaltyBones

    don't see any node in there

  366. jonasw

    daniel, so we need to provide workable docker images

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  368. SaltyBones

    https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse <- python, not js

  369. Ge0rG

    So who is talking to the KDE people to convince them of XMPP?

  370. zinid

    Ge0rG, why to convince them? You cannot convince IRC users to use XMPP

  371. jonasw

    Ge0rG, Seve is

  372. Ge0rG

    zinid: please shut up.

  373. zinid

    Ge0rG, fuck off

  374. jonasw

    are you two going to have a fuck off-off now?

  375. Ge0rG

    jonasw: can we have some thimbleweed and Ennio Morricone please?

  376. Seve

    Ge0rG, I sent an email to JUser mailing list to see if I could gather some interest and help on writing some document showing what XMPP can do and what do we have in terms of clients and such. I would like to tell them that using XMPP is also safe bet on the long run and such things. Unfortunately, I've been taking a look at these fancy clients like Rock chat or stuff like that, and we are a bit behind...

  377. jonasw

    "a bit"

  378. Seve


  379. Ge0rG

    Seve: but we are not run by a single company, and the KDE community is full of developers. We just need to market it as a challenge for them!

  380. Guus

    Seve, I'm wondering if the JUser mailing list is being used at all, these days.

  381. Guus

    the log files seem pretty empty: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/

  382. jonasw

    Ge0rG, full of developers who have their plate full with their own challenges already, I’m afraid

  383. Ge0rG

    Seve: I fear writing to an abandoned list won't move us forward.

  384. Guus

    Seve, I suggest you (also?) mail to the members list, or jdev, depending on the subject.

  385. jonasw

    Guus, I think operators and members would be most appropriate.

  386. jonasw

    maybe developers, too, but operators have the practical experience

  387. zinid

    just send in all lists

  388. Seve

    Ge0rG, there's Kaidan https://github.com/KaidanIM/Kaidan Which I wanted to point out this, when writing to them, to let their community know about this project (which I could test at FOSDEM in a mobile phone).

  389. Seve

    This is not going to make a difference at all, but always worth mentioning them

  390. Seve

    Guus, Ge0rG: Yes, I knew JUser is not really used, but I was afraid of sending it to another list and listen to people say "WTF r u doin here"

  391. daniel

    Reading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them

  392. Guus

    Seve, don't worry to much about that :)

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  394. Guus

    daniel, why not? They list that the list does not distinguish between must-haves and nice-to-haves.

  395. Guus

    we're ticking an awful lot of boxes - and sure, we don't tick all of them.

  396. Guus

    no-one will.

  397. zinid

    > Reading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them If "not locked by a single company" can be ommited, then there are plenty of solutions

  398. Kev

    I don't think we should persuade them to use XMPP.

  399. Kev

    Or, that shouldn't be our goal.

  400. zinid

    they already have xmpp-server at kde.org

  401. Kev

    Helping them understand whether XMPP can work for them for this, great, but using XMPP where it isn't appropriate shouldn't be a goal.

  402. Kev

    And helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us.

  403. daniel

    Guus: the thing is I don't think they are looking for a protocol but for existing software. I wouldn't know what desktop clients to recommend

  404. Kev

    I haven't looked at their requirements, but I assume there's some stuff in there that Swift doesn't do, else that's an obvious Qt-based option.

  405. Guus

    daniel, that, I understand. Are they currently defining a KDE-spec IRC desktop client?

  406. zinid

    Kev, how many people are working on Swift (if not a secret)? Why is it being developed so slowly? 🙂

  407. Ge0rG

    Kev [14:46]: > And helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us. Do we have the personnel to collect that information and to act upon?

  408. zinid

    "act upon" by producing even more discussions!

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  410. SaltyBones

    my name is zinid, I hate XMPP and the XSF in particular, so I will hang out in their channel all day and make useless and aggressive remarks

  411. Guus

    Kev, looking at their list of requirements, an XMPP-based solution looks at least about as fitting as another solution. I'd definately not _not_ engage KDE.

  412. zinid

    SaltyBones, and what did you produce here?

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  414. Guus

    it's what he doesn't produce that doesn't make him appear as counterproductive.

  415. Guus

    (did I use the proper amount of double negatives there?)

  416. jonasw

    I don’t know

  417. Guus

    I've brought this up before: I do like us to have arguments, but lets try and keep this a non-hostile environment to discuss things.

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  425. Tobias

    vanitasvitae, there?

  426. vanitasvitae

    I am

  427. Tobias

    "Also almost all examples in the SIMS XEP are lacking a 'uri' attribute, which is mandatory according to §3.1 in references." - I see lots of uri attributes in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html

  428. Tobias

    what am I missing?

  429. vanitasvitae

    The outer reference is missing the uri attribute

  430. vanitasvitae

    Take for example Example 1

  431. vanitasvitae

    The references in the source element are having uris, but the outer references dont

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  433. Tobias

    vanitasvitae, missing the SIMS URI?

  434. vanitasvitae


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  436. vanitasvitae

    My point is, that the References XEP makes an uri attribute mandatory

  437. Tobias


  438. Tobias

    i see what you mean

  439. Tobias


  440. vanitasvitae


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  452. Tobias

    wonder what would make sense there. I think https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html should have an optional URI attribute if there's further content inside the reference

  453. Tobias

    don't know what Kev, author of References XEP, thinks about that

  454. Kev

    zinid: It's not a static number, because people work across all our XMPP stuff.

  455. Guus

    (I like how you referenced the author of the references xep there)

  456. Kev

    (Without using a reference)

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  458. Guus

    my client wouldn't recognize that either way, so I wasn't sure :)

  459. Kev

    Tobias: You mean an additional uri attribute over the one that's already there?

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  461. Tobias

    Kev, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html#example-1 I reference a shared file there, which is further described inside the references tag. the outer references tag doesn't have a URI element

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  464. Kev

    Ah, I see. Yes, if the 'referenced thing' is part of the reference, rather than external, not using a uri makes sense to me.

  465. Tobias

    someone should update the references XEP accordingly

  466. Tobias

    vanitasvitae, if you're planning to implement it, I think Movim supports it too :)

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  480. zinid

    Kev, I see

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  492. Ge0rG

    What about origin ids in references?

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  518. SaltyBones

    I tried to clean up my notes about yesterday's discussion and posted them to the mailing list.

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  522. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: great!

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  659. Alex

    Memberbot is online for all XSF members

  660. Ge0rG

    Wow, significant loss in reapplications

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  664. Alex

    Ge0rG: ya

  665. daniel

    Alex: memberbot is not asking me if I want to cast my vote now

  666. Ge0rG

    lovetox: we lost you :(

  667. jubalh has left

  668. Flow

    jonasw, separating the hashes in ecaps2 would only be beneficial if the features/forms of an entity change (frequently), or are the other cases?

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  672. SamWhited

    Alex, daniel: it appears to be panicing

  673. SamWhited

    > Error message from server: SleekXMPP got into trouble.

  674. SamWhited

    I'm getting an undefined-condition from it right before that.

  675. daniel23 has left

  676. Alex

    redis was not running on my server

  677. Alex


  678. Alex

    please try again now

  679. Alex

    Always forget that the bot depends on Redis ;-)

  680. daniel

    Oh. And it looks my resource. I can't start voting on my phone and continue on my desktop. Very 00s 😀

  681. Alex

    I see only myself is this room right now

  682. Alex

    are there problems in xmpp.org, or is my client running crazy?

  683. Alex has left

  684. Zash

    Ye ol' MUC desync?

  685. Alex has joined

  686. Ge0rG

    Alex: you've attempted to rely on TCP. Sorry.

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  717. Neustradamus

    I found a missing redirection: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/faq/

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