“08:13:27 zinid> the problem is that now I'm not sure if other clients don't break though”, make it opt-in, for example with a disco#info feature, that way the MUC service will only send its own presence to clients which support it.
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zinid
huh?
Link Mauve
It was about MUCs sending a presence to participants.
Link Mauve
Sorry, I’m backlogging.
Link Mauve
This should be specified too, at some point. ^^
zinid
"opt-in"?
zinid
where guys you find these fancy words 🙂
zinid
none of my dictionaries know about it
zinid
optional I guess
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Link Mauve
zinid, in the MUC join presence, if the caps include this one feature then you can send the MUC presence, otherwise you have to assume it’s an older client and it won’t support that.
Guus
opt-in means "not included by default, unless specifically asked to be included"
rion
zinid: btw. I've commited new muc roster in Psi. so it should handle it. But of course it may fail some other way with this new presences =)
Link Mauve
zinid, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt-in
zinid
rion, ok
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Link Mauve
Same for streaming stream-features, if it were negociated it would be fine to send them as a “nonza” whenever they change.
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SaltyBones
my turn, what's a nonza?
zinid
SaltyBones: not a stanza
remko
level-1 stream element like a stanza, but not a stanza
remko
so any direct child of <stream:stream> that isn't iq/presence/message
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Dave Cridland
SaltyBones, Nonza is a confusing made-up word that some people mistakenly think makes our specifications clearer.
remko
:)
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edhelas
nonzas are rare elements that you can find in some streams, they are difficult to observe and some developpers are still discussing about their existence
Dave Cridland, I don’t find non-stanza stream-level elements very useful either ;-)
Dave Cridland
jonasw, Maybe, but it didn't take an entire spec to explain.
SaltyBones
Not sure if this is useful but for those who speak german or want to use google translate: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/messenger-matrix-das-xmpp-fuer-hobby-admins/
SaltyBones
The article argues why matrix is better than xmpp.
jonasw
Dave Cridland, I don’t think that we necessarily need a spec, but I think that having a term for that is useful; and in the end, all terms are kind of made up (like stanza); I’m not sure where your argument against that term comes from.
Dave Cridland
SaltyBones, Anything useful there?
SaltyBones
Dave Cridland, the most useful thing, imho, is the statement that $all_his_other_problems are due to his incompetence at setting up prosody correctly.
SaltyBones
Which, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard.
Seve
I'm guessing bad clients are also an argument in that article.
jonasw
is it though?
SaltyBones
jonasw, yes? :)
Dave Cridland
SaltyBones, It is, in part, the SRV records.
jonasw
you don’t even need those
SaltyBones
Seve, of course they are, especially iOS
Ge0rG
jonasw: yes it is.
SaltyBones
jonasw, just remember jabber without mam and stream management...
jonasw
SaltyBones, hm, good ponit
jonasw
I always forget about the more advanced features
SaltyBones
and setting up ejabberd...I mean I have it running but whenever I do more than use ejabberdctl I get stuck in the erlang shell :p
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SaltyBones
jonasw, the problem is they are not more advanced :) They are basic to the point of message loss without them
jonasw
SaltyBones, yeah, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be basic
jonasw
but I always forget about them when thinking about how difficult it is to set up a server
jonasw
(even though with 0.10, MAM should not be that much of a trouble anymore. isn’t it in core even now?)
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Guus
Want to show you how to setup a server in under a minute? 0:-)
Guus
(sans SRV records, granted)
SaltyBones
Well, yes? :)
SaltyBones
Make a youtube video!
SaltyBones
I'll post it under that article. :)
Guus
I actually made a video
Guus
15 minutes
SaltyBones
awesome!
Guus
but it also gives you an EC2 setup and integration with our jitsi meet plugin
Guus
searching...
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Guus
bah, we migrated forums, and that thread is lost to me
when a video opens with VLC, which you virtually never use and you’re confronted with this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/EjZ7corpc2V-3hCD-slkA9f4XxK0w4uxoWP1BapKB3k.png
SaltyBones
"Don’t blindly follow these instructions, without giving thought to security, interoperability and performance."
jonasw
Guus, how about starting the video with a quick demo of what the end product will be able to do?
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Guus
SaltyBones: obligatory disclaimer.
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Guus
jonasw: yeah, it can be improved upon. But this doubles as an instruction for one of my customers that needed the EC2 bit as well.
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Guus
jonasw: also: I like that ascii-art encoding on vlc :)
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SaltyBones
Guus, I can post this but I still think a 1 Minute thing would be very cool. :)
Guus
SaltyBones: yeah, I think this one is to long
SaltyBones
I mean...not sure if you can actually do it in a minute .. ;)
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Guus
I'm 5 minutes in, and I am explaining about nightly builds :/
jonasw
SaltyBones, hm, I have ansible roles which work on debian jessie and stretch for prosody (both from package and from hg)
jonasw
maybe that’s worth sharing?
jonasw
but I think I write roles in a style which is very different from what everybody else using ansible does, so I’ve always been hesitant to share them
Guus
SaltyBones: 1 minute is hard while talking about it. But, to install: download platform specific installer, double-click installer, open browser and visit http://localhost:9090, fill out 4 screens, done.
Guus
depending on your download speed, you can do that in 1 minute.
SaltyBones
Guus, remind me tonight and I will try ;)
Guus
in my video, skip to 7:30
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SaltyBones
jonasw, if they work I think it would still be nice
jonasw
they *do* work. for me. they depend on my own homebrew ferm role though
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zinid
> Which, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard
1. Postulate that servers are complex in XMPP by design
2. Cry they are hard to configure
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jonasw
zinid, browsers are complex too, but need 0 configuration.
jonasw
your argument is invalid :)
zinid
jonasw, yeah, that's why I have to always configure them
daniel
jonasw: my browser needs a lot of configuration to be barely usable
jonasw
daniel, sure, but you’re a poweruser
zinid
also, you can install a server by entering a hostname and never configure it, no problem
jonasw
most what other people do is install an ad-blocker if anything and be done with it
zinid
half will not be working, but the same is in browsers
Seve
Wow
Seve
I wonder how you use browsers that you have to configure them
zinid
Seve, and I wonder how the comparison holds?
zinid
you need DNS, opened ports and stuff like that for xmpp server
zinid
you don't need all this for browsers
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zinid
ah, and certfiles
Seve
Indeed
zinid
also, when I often hear "hard to configure", that means the software is compiled from master branch, installed in some obscure way with an obscure configuration file from stackoverflow
daniel
But ejabberd is fairly easy to install these days
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zinid
well, it still doesn't have gui configurator, so a lot of admins pass by
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jonasw
zinid, to be fair, when I see a gui configurator, I pass by
jonasw
:-)
daniel
I was about to say the same thing
zinid
jonasw, that's why you need to define audience first 🙂
jonasw
I don’t know how matrix is configured
SaltyBones
click on the link ;)
Ge0rG
None of this is going to solve the other problem shown by Roland. UI inconsistency and horrible iOS user experience
jonasw
SaltyBones, that’s not good for my blood pressure
daniel
I think the recommended approach for the matrix server is to curl pipe something to sh to install node and npm
daniel
And then do some weird node magic to install something that might still be missing dependencies
daniel
And that will break on the next OS Upgrade
Guus
daniel: that's true for 90% of all node.js projects, for me at least.
SaltyBones
daniel, it seems he is using python stuff
SaltyBones
don't see any node in there
jonasw
daniel, so we need to provide workable docker images
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SaltyBones
https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse <- python, not js
Ge0rG
So who is talking to the KDE people to convince them of XMPP?
zinid
Ge0rG, why to convince them? You cannot convince IRC users to use XMPP
jonasw
Ge0rG, Seve is
Ge0rG
zinid: please shut up.
zinid
Ge0rG, fuck off
jonasw
are you two going to have a fuck off-off now?
Ge0rG
jonasw: can we have some thimbleweed and Ennio Morricone please?
Seve
Ge0rG, I sent an email to JUser mailing list to see if I could gather some interest and help on writing some document showing what XMPP can do and what do we have in terms of clients and such. I would like to tell them that using XMPP is also safe bet on the long run and such things. Unfortunately, I've been taking a look at these fancy clients like Rock chat or stuff like that, and we are a bit behind...
jonasw
"a bit"
Seve
Yeah...
Ge0rG
Seve: but we are not run by a single company, and the KDE community is full of developers. We just need to market it as a challenge for them!
Guus
Seve, I'm wondering if the JUser mailing list is being used at all, these days.
Guus
the log files seem pretty empty: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/
jonasw
Ge0rG, full of developers who have their plate full with their own challenges already, I’m afraid
Ge0rG
Seve: I fear writing to an abandoned list won't move us forward.
Guus
Seve, I suggest you (also?) mail to the members list, or jdev, depending on the subject.
jonasw
Guus, I think operators and members would be most appropriate.
jonasw
maybe developers, too, but operators have the practical experience
zinid
just send in all lists
Seve
Ge0rG, there's Kaidan https://github.com/KaidanIM/Kaidan
Which I wanted to point out this, when writing to them, to let their community know about this project (which I could test at FOSDEM in a mobile phone).
Seve
This is not going to make a difference at all, but always worth mentioning them
Seve
Guus, Ge0rG: Yes, I knew JUser is not really used, but I was afraid of sending it to another list and listen to people say "WTF r u doin here"
daniel
Reading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them
Guus
Seve, don't worry to much about that :)
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Guus
daniel, why not? They list that the list does not distinguish between must-haves and nice-to-haves.
Guus
we're ticking an awful lot of boxes - and sure, we don't tick all of them.
Guus
no-one will.
zinid
> Reading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them
If "not locked by a single company" can be ommited, then there are plenty of solutions
Kev
I don't think we should persuade them to use XMPP.
Kev
Or, that shouldn't be our goal.
zinid
they already have xmpp-server at kde.org
Kev
Helping them understand whether XMPP can work for them for this, great, but using XMPP where it isn't appropriate shouldn't be a goal.
Kev
And helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us.
daniel
Guus: the thing is I don't think they are looking for a protocol but for existing software. I wouldn't know what desktop clients to recommend
Kev
I haven't looked at their requirements, but I assume there's some stuff in there that Swift doesn't do, else that's an obvious Qt-based option.
Guus
daniel, that, I understand. Are they currently defining a KDE-spec IRC desktop client?
zinid
Kev, how many people are working on Swift (if not a secret)? Why is it being developed so slowly? 🙂
Ge0rG
Kev [14:46]:
> And helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us.
Do we have the personnel to collect that information and to act upon?
zinid
"act upon" by producing even more discussions!
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SaltyBones
my name is zinid, I hate XMPP and the XSF in particular, so I will hang out in their channel all day and make useless and aggressive remarks
Guus
Kev, looking at their list of requirements, an XMPP-based solution looks at least about as fitting as another solution. I'd definately not _not_ engage KDE.
zinid
SaltyBones, and what did you produce here?
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Guus
it's what he doesn't produce that doesn't make him appear as counterproductive.
Guus
(did I use the proper amount of double negatives there?)
jonasw
I don’t know
Guus
I've brought this up before: I do like us to have arguments, but lets try and keep this a non-hostile environment to discuss things.
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Tobias
vanitasvitae, there?
vanitasvitae
I am
Tobias
"Also almost all examples in the SIMS XEP are lacking a 'uri' attribute, which is mandatory according to §3.1 in references." - I see lots of uri attributes in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
Tobias
what am I missing?
vanitasvitae
The outer reference is missing the uri attribute
vanitasvitae
Take for example Example 1
vanitasvitae
The references in the source element are having uris, but the outer references dont
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Tobias
vanitasvitae, missing the SIMS URI?
vanitasvitae
?
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vanitasvitae
My point is, that the References XEP makes an uri attribute mandatory
Tobias
ahh
Tobias
i see what you mean
Tobias
:)
vanitasvitae
:)
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Tobias
wonder what would make sense there. I think https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html should have an optional URI attribute if there's further content inside the reference
Tobias
don't know what Kev, author of References XEP, thinks about that
Kev
zinid: It's not a static number, because people work across all our XMPP stuff.
Guus
(I like how you referenced the author of the references xep there)
Kev
(Without using a reference)
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Guus
my client wouldn't recognize that either way, so I wasn't sure :)
Kev
Tobias: You mean an additional uri attribute over the one that's already there?
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Tobias
Kev, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html#example-1 I reference a shared file there, which is further described inside the references tag. the outer references tag doesn't have a URI element
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Kev
Ah, I see. Yes, if the 'referenced thing' is part of the reference, rather than external, not using a uri makes sense to me.
Tobias
someone should update the references XEP accordingly
Tobias
vanitasvitae, if you're planning to implement it, I think Movim supports it too :)
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zinid
Kev, I see
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Ge0rG
What about origin ids in references?
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SaltyBones
I tried to clean up my notes about yesterday's discussion and posted them to the mailing list.
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Ge0rG
SaltyBones: great!
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Alex
Memberbot is online for all XSF members
Ge0rG
Wow, significant loss in reapplications
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Alex
Ge0rG: ya
daniel
Alex: memberbot is not asking me if I want to cast my vote now
Ge0rG
lovetox: we lost you :(
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Flow
jonasw, separating the hashes in ecaps2 would only be beneficial if the features/forms of an entity change (frequently), or are the other cases?
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SamWhited
Alex, daniel: it appears to be panicing
SamWhited
> Error message from server: SleekXMPP got into trouble.
SamWhited
I'm getting an undefined-condition from it right before that.
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Alex
redis was not running on my server
Alex
sorry
Alex
please try again now
Alex
Always forget that the bot depends on Redis ;-)
daniel
Oh. And it looks my resource. I can't start voting on my phone and continue on my desktop. Very 00s 😀
Alex
I see only myself is this room right now
Alex
are there problems in xmpp.org, or is my client running crazy?
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Zash
Ye ol' MUC desync?
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Ge0rG
Alex: you've attempted to rely on TCP. Sorry.
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Neustradamus
I found a missing redirection: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/faq/