Link Mauve“08:13:27 zinid> the problem is that now I'm not sure if other clients don't break though”, make it opt-in, for example with a disco#info feature, that way the MUC service will only send its own presence to clients which support it.
Martinhas left
zinidhuh?
Link MauveIt was about MUCs sending a presence to participants.
Link MauveSorry, I’m backlogging.
Link MauveThis should be specified too, at some point. ^^
zinid"opt-in"?
zinidwhere guys you find these fancy words 🙂
zinidnone of my dictionaries know about it
zinidoptional I guess
jubalhhas left
Link Mauvezinid, in the MUC join presence, if the caps include this one feature then you can send the MUC presence, otherwise you have to assume it’s an older client and it won’t support that.
Guusopt-in means "not included by default, unless specifically asked to be included"
rionzinid: btw. I've commited new muc roster in Psi. so it should handle it. But of course it may fail some other way with this new presences =)
Link Mauvezinid, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt-in
zinidrion, ok
Guushas left
Link MauveSame for streaming stream-features, if it were negociated it would be fine to send them as a “nonza” whenever they change.
vanitasvitaehas left
vanitasvitaehas joined
Syndacehas left
Syndacehas joined
remkohas left
Martinhas joined
remkohas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
marchas joined
SaltyBonesmy turn, what's a nonza?
zinidSaltyBones: not a stanza
remkolevel-1 stream element like a stanza, but not a stanza
remkoso any direct child of <stream:stream> that isn't iq/presence/message
hanneshas joined
vanitasvitaehas left
goffihas left
goffihas joined
SaltyBoneshas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave CridlandSaltyBones, Nonza is a confusing made-up word that some people mistakenly think makes our specifications clearer.
remko:)
nycohas left
edhelasnonzas are rare elements that you can find in some streams, they are difficult to observe and some developpers are still discussing about their existence
jonaswDave Cridland, I don’t find non-stanza stream-level elements very useful either ;-)
Dave Cridlandjonasw, Maybe, but it didn't take an entire spec to explain.
SaltyBonesNot sure if this is useful but for those who speak german or want to use google translate: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/messenger-matrix-das-xmpp-fuer-hobby-admins/
SaltyBonesThe article argues why matrix is better than xmpp.
jonaswDave Cridland, I don’t think that we necessarily need a spec, but I think that having a term for that is useful; and in the end, all terms are kind of made up (like stanza); I’m not sure where your argument against that term comes from.
Dave CridlandSaltyBones, Anything useful there?
SaltyBonesDave Cridland, the most useful thing, imho, is the statement that $all_his_other_problems are due to his incompetence at setting up prosody correctly.
SaltyBonesWhich, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard.
SeveI'm guessing bad clients are also an argument in that article.
jonaswis it though?
SaltyBonesjonasw, yes? :)
Dave CridlandSaltyBones, It is, in part, the SRV records.
jonaswyou don’t even need those
SaltyBonesSeve, of course they are, especially iOS
Ge0rGjonasw: yes it is.
SaltyBonesjonasw, just remember jabber without mam and stream management...
jonaswSaltyBones, hm, good ponit
jonaswI always forget about the more advanced features
SaltyBonesand setting up ejabberd...I mean I have it running but whenever I do more than use ejabberdctl I get stuck in the erlang shell :p
remkohas left
SaltyBonesjonasw, the problem is they are not more advanced :) They are basic to the point of message loss without them
jonaswSaltyBones, yeah, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be basic
jonaswbut I always forget about them when thinking about how difficult it is to set up a server
jonasw(even though with 0.10, MAM should not be that much of a trouble anymore. isn’t it in core even now?)
andyhas left
GuusWant to show you how to setup a server in under a minute? 0:-)
Guus(sans SRV records, granted)
SaltyBonesWell, yes? :)
SaltyBonesMake a youtube video!
SaltyBonesI'll post it under that article. :)
GuusI actually made a video
Guus15 minutes
SaltyBonesawesome!
Guusbut it also gives you an EC2 setup and integration with our jitsi meet plugin
Guussearching...
suzyohas joined
Guusbah, we migrated forums, and that thread is lost to me
jonaswwhen a video opens with VLC, which you virtually never use and you’re confronted with this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/EjZ7corpc2V-3hCD-slkA9f4XxK0w4uxoWP1BapKB3k.png
SaltyBones"Don’t blindly follow these instructions, without giving thought to security, interoperability and performance."
jonaswGuus, how about starting the video with a quick demo of what the end product will be able to do?
Guushas left
GuusSaltyBones: obligatory disclaimer.
andyhas joined
Guusjonasw: yeah, it can be improved upon. But this doubles as an instruction for one of my customers that needed the EC2 bit as well.
efrithas left
efrithas joined
Guusjonasw: also: I like that ascii-art encoding on vlc :)
Dave Cridlandhas left
SaltyBonesGuus, I can post this but I still think a 1 Minute thing would be very cool. :)
GuusSaltyBones: yeah, I think this one is to long
SaltyBonesI mean...not sure if you can actually do it in a minute .. ;)
nycohas left
GuusI'm 5 minutes in, and I am explaining about nightly builds :/
jonaswSaltyBones, hm, I have ansible roles which work on debian jessie and stretch for prosody (both from package and from hg)
jonaswmaybe that’s worth sharing?
jonaswbut I think I write roles in a style which is very different from what everybody else using ansible does, so I’ve always been hesitant to share them
GuusSaltyBones: 1 minute is hard while talking about it. But, to install: download platform specific installer, double-click installer, open browser and visit http://localhost:9090, fill out 4 screens, done.
Guusdepending on your download speed, you can do that in 1 minute.
SaltyBonesGuus, remind me tonight and I will try ;)
Guusin my video, skip to 7:30
Martinhas joined
SaltyBonesjonasw, if they work I think it would still be nice
jonaswthey *do* work. for me. they depend on my own homebrew ferm role though
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
zinid> Which, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard
1. Postulate that servers are complex in XMPP by design
2. Cry they are hard to configure
blablahas left
jonaswzinid, browsers are complex too, but need 0 configuration.
jonaswyour argument is invalid :)
zinidjonasw, yeah, that's why I have to always configure them
danieljonasw: my browser needs a lot of configuration to be barely usable
jonaswdaniel, sure, but you’re a poweruser
zinidalso, you can install a server by entering a hostname and never configure it, no problem
jonaswmost what other people do is install an ad-blocker if anything and be done with it
zinidhalf will not be working, but the same is in browsers
SeveWow
SeveI wonder how you use browsers that you have to configure them
zinidSeve, and I wonder how the comparison holds?
zinidyou need DNS, opened ports and stuff like that for xmpp server
zinidyou don't need all this for browsers
Dave Cridlandhas left
zinidah, and certfiles
SeveIndeed
zinidalso, when I often hear "hard to configure", that means the software is compiled from master branch, installed in some obscure way with an obscure configuration file from stackoverflow
danielBut ejabberd is fairly easy to install these days
andyhas left
vanitasvitaehas left
zinidwell, it still doesn't have gui configurator, so a lot of admins pass by
lskdjfhas joined
vanitasvitaehas left
jonaswzinid, to be fair, when I see a gui configurator, I pass by
jonasw:-)
danielI was about to say the same thing
zinidjonasw, that's why you need to define audience first 🙂
jonaswI don’t know how matrix is configured
SaltyBonesclick on the link ;)
Ge0rGNone of this is going to solve the other problem shown by Roland. UI inconsistency and horrible iOS user experience
jonaswSaltyBones, that’s not good for my blood pressure
danielI think the recommended approach for the matrix server is to curl pipe something to sh to install node and npm
danielAnd then do some weird node magic to install something that might still be missing dependencies
danielAnd that will break on the next OS Upgrade
Guusdaniel: that's true for 90% of all node.js projects, for me at least.
SaltyBonesdaniel, it seems he is using python stuff
SaltyBonesdon't see any node in there
jonaswdaniel, so we need to provide workable docker images
Dave Cridlandhas left
SaltyBoneshttps://github.com/matrix-org/synapse <- python, not js
Ge0rGSo who is talking to the KDE people to convince them of XMPP?
zinidGe0rG, why to convince them? You cannot convince IRC users to use XMPP
jonaswGe0rG, Seve is
Ge0rGzinid: please shut up.
zinidGe0rG, fuck off
jonasware you two going to have a fuck off-off now?
Ge0rGjonasw: can we have some thimbleweed and Ennio Morricone please?
SeveGe0rG, I sent an email to JUser mailing list to see if I could gather some interest and help on writing some document showing what XMPP can do and what do we have in terms of clients and such. I would like to tell them that using XMPP is also safe bet on the long run and such things. Unfortunately, I've been taking a look at these fancy clients like Rock chat or stuff like that, and we are a bit behind...
jonasw"a bit"
SeveYeah...
Ge0rGSeve: but we are not run by a single company, and the KDE community is full of developers. We just need to market it as a challenge for them!
GuusSeve, I'm wondering if the JUser mailing list is being used at all, these days.
jonaswGe0rG, full of developers who have their plate full with their own challenges already, I’m afraid
Ge0rGSeve: I fear writing to an abandoned list won't move us forward.
GuusSeve, I suggest you (also?) mail to the members list, or jdev, depending on the subject.
jonaswGuus, I think operators and members would be most appropriate.
jonaswmaybe developers, too, but operators have the practical experience
zinidjust send in all lists
SeveGe0rG, there's Kaidan https://github.com/KaidanIM/Kaidan
Which I wanted to point out this, when writing to them, to let their community know about this project (which I could test at FOSDEM in a mobile phone).
SeveThis is not going to make a difference at all, but always worth mentioning them
SeveGuus, Ge0rG: Yes, I knew JUser is not really used, but I was afraid of sending it to another list and listen to people say "WTF r u doin here"
danielReading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them
GuusSeve, don't worry to much about that :)
efrithas left
Guusdaniel, why not? They list that the list does not distinguish between must-haves and nice-to-haves.
Guuswe're ticking an awful lot of boxes - and sure, we don't tick all of them.
Guusno-one will.
zinid> Reading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them
If "not locked by a single company" can be ommited, then there are plenty of solutions
KevI don't think we should persuade them to use XMPP.
KevOr, that shouldn't be our goal.
zinidthey already have xmpp-server at kde.org
KevHelping them understand whether XMPP can work for them for this, great, but using XMPP where it isn't appropriate shouldn't be a goal.
KevAnd helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us.
danielGuus: the thing is I don't think they are looking for a protocol but for existing software. I wouldn't know what desktop clients to recommend
KevI haven't looked at their requirements, but I assume there's some stuff in there that Swift doesn't do, else that's an obvious Qt-based option.
Guusdaniel, that, I understand. Are they currently defining a KDE-spec IRC desktop client?
zinidKev, how many people are working on Swift (if not a secret)? Why is it being developed so slowly? 🙂
Ge0rGKev [14:46]:
> And helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us.
Do we have the personnel to collect that information and to act upon?
zinid"act upon" by producing even more discussions!
andyhas joined
SaltyBonesmy name is zinid, I hate XMPP and the XSF in particular, so I will hang out in their channel all day and make useless and aggressive remarks
GuusKev, looking at their list of requirements, an XMPP-based solution looks at least about as fitting as another solution. I'd definately not _not_ engage KDE.
zinidSaltyBones, and what did you produce here?
Dave Cridlandhas left
Guusit's what he doesn't produce that doesn't make him appear as counterproductive.
Guus(did I use the proper amount of double negatives there?)
jonaswI don’t know
GuusI've brought this up before: I do like us to have arguments, but lets try and keep this a non-hostile environment to discuss things.
danielhas left
jubalhhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
danielhas left
jubalhhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Alexhas left
Tobiasvanitasvitae, there?
vanitasvitaeI am
Tobias"Also almost all examples in the SIMS XEP are lacking a 'uri' attribute, which is mandatory according to §3.1 in references." - I see lots of uri attributes in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
Tobiaswhat am I missing?
vanitasvitaeThe outer reference is missing the uri attribute
vanitasvitaeTake for example Example 1
vanitasvitaeThe references in the source element are having uris, but the outer references dont
Guushas left
Tobiasvanitasvitae, missing the SIMS URI?
vanitasvitae?
Dave Cridlandhas left
vanitasvitaeMy point is, that the References XEP makes an uri attribute mandatory
Tobiasahh
Tobiasi see what you mean
Tobias:)
vanitasvitae:)
andyhas left
andyhas joined
danielhas left
danielhas joined
danielhas left
danielhas joined
la|r|mahas joined
jjrhhas left
jubalhhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
Guushas left
Tobiaswonder what would make sense there. I think https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html should have an optional URI attribute if there's further content inside the reference
Tobiasdon't know what Kev, author of References XEP, thinks about that
Kevzinid: It's not a static number, because people work across all our XMPP stuff.
Guus(I like how you referenced the author of the references xep there)
Kev(Without using a reference)
Dave Cridlandhas left
Guusmy client wouldn't recognize that either way, so I wasn't sure :)
KevTobias: You mean an additional uri attribute over the one that's already there?
marchas left
TobiasKev, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html#example-1 I reference a shared file there, which is further described inside the references tag. the outer references tag doesn't have a URI element
danielhas left
danielhas joined
KevAh, I see. Yes, if the 'referenced thing' is part of the reference, rather than external, not using a uri makes sense to me.
Tobiassomeone should update the references XEP accordingly
Tobiasvanitasvitae, if you're planning to implement it, I think Movim supports it too :)
Martinhas left
brahas left
brahas joined
intosihas left
intosihas joined
intosihas left
intosihas joined
jjrhhas left
jjrhhas left
jubalhhas left
jjrhhas left
Martinhas joined
Guushas left
zinidKev, I see
SamWhitedhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
Alexhas joined
SamWhitedhas joined
Guushas left
SaltyBoneshas left
hanneshas left
hanneshas joined
moparisthebesthas left
stefandxmhas joined
suzyohas joined
Ge0rGWhat about origin ids in references?
Alexhas left
danielhas left
zinidhas left
zinidhas left
matlaghas left
brahas left
stefandxmhas left
danielhas left
ralphmhas left
tim@boese-ban.dehas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
jubalhhas left
suzyohas joined
vanitasvitaehas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
andyhas left
jubalhhas joined
Guushas left
andyhas joined
danielhas left
Guushas left
moparisthebesthas joined
Guushas left
Guushas left
la|r|mahas left
SaltyBonesI tried to clean up my notes about yesterday's discussion and posted them to the mailing list.
vanitasvitaehas left
Guushas left
stefandxmhas joined
Ge0rGSaltyBones: great!
moparisthebesthas left
lovetoxhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
moparisthebesthas joined
Guushas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
stefandxmhas left
Ge0rGhas left
Martinhas left
suzyohas joined
intosihas left
intosihas joined
stefandxmhas joined
ralphmhas joined
Guushas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
intosihas left
intosihas joined
andyhas left
andyhas joined
la|r|mahas left
jjrhhas left
jjrhhas left
jjrhhas left
SaltyBoneshas left
jubalhhas joined
jjrhhas left
ralphmhas joined
Kevhas left
daniel23has joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
intosihas left
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
rionhas left
Syndacehas left
Syndacehas joined
jubalhhas left
stefandxmhas left
ralphmhas joined
Guushas left
andyhas left
andyhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
Fabianhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
la|r|mahas joined
uchas joined
stefandxmhas joined
pep.has left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Holgerhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Steve Killehas left
Guushas left
brahas joined
daniel23has joined
moparisthebesthas left
Steve Killehas left
andyhas left
andyhas joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
andyhas left
danielhas left
ralphmhas joined
andyhas joined
Alexhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
lskdjfhas joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
la|r|mahas joined
uchas joined
daniel23has joined
stefandxmhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
ralphmhas joined
jubalhhas left
daniel23has left
moparisthebesthas left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
waqashas joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
andyhas left
Guushas left
daniel23has left
Holgerhas left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
Guushas left
marchas left
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
lskdjfhas left
Guushas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
moparisthebesthas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
daniel23has joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
danielhas left
Guushas left
Fabianhas left
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
lskdjfhas joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
daniel23has joined
daniel23has left
stefandxmhas joined
AlexMemberbot is online for all XSF members
Ge0rGWow, significant loss in reapplications
hanneshas left
hanneshas joined
jubalhhas left
AlexGe0rG: ya
danielAlex: memberbot is not asking me if I want to cast my vote now
Ge0rGlovetox: we lost you :(
jubalhhas left
Flowjonasw, separating the hashes in ecaps2 would only be beneficial if the features/forms of an entity change (frequently), or are the other cases?
stefandxmhas left
vanitasvitaehas left
daniel23has joined
SamWhitedAlex, daniel: it appears to be panicing
SamWhited> Error message from server: SleekXMPP got into trouble.
SamWhitedI'm getting an undefined-condition from it right before that.
daniel23has left
Alexredis was not running on my server
Alexsorry
Alexplease try again now
AlexAlways forget that the bot depends on Redis ;-)
danielOh. And it looks my resource. I can't start voting on my phone and continue on my desktop. Very 00s 😀
AlexI see only myself is this room right now
Alexare there problems in xmpp.org, or is my client running crazy?
Alexhas left
ZashYe ol' MUC desync?
Alexhas joined
Ge0rGAlex: you've attempted to rely on TCP. Sorry.
stefandxmhas joined
Alexhas left
ralphmhas joined
Steve Killehas joined
marchas left
andyhas joined
marchas left
goffihas left
Kevhas joined
andyhas left
tuxhas left
jubalhhas left
lskdjfhas joined
ralphmhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
ralphmhas left
efrithas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
hanneshas left
ralphmhas joined
danielhas left
Dave Cridlandhas left
hanneshas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
lskdjfhas joined
Dave Cridlandhas left
NeustradamusI found a missing redirection: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/faq/
XSF Discussion - 2018-02-13