XSF Discussion - 2018-02-13

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  201. Link Mauve “08:13:27 zinid> the problem is that now I'm not sure if other clients don't break though”, make it opt-in, for example with a disco#info feature, that way the MUC service will only send its own presence to clients which support it.
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  203. zinid huh?
  204. Link Mauve It was about MUCs sending a presence to participants.
  205. Link Mauve Sorry, I’m backlogging.
  206. Link Mauve This should be specified too, at some point. ^^
  207. zinid "opt-in"?
  208. zinid where guys you find these fancy words 🙂
  209. zinid none of my dictionaries know about it
  210. zinid optional I guess
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  212. Link Mauve zinid, in the MUC join presence, if the caps include this one feature then you can send the MUC presence, otherwise you have to assume it’s an older client and it won’t support that.
  213. Guus opt-in means "not included by default, unless specifically asked to be included"
  214. rion zinid: btw. I've commited new muc roster in Psi. so it should handle it. But of course it may fail some other way with this new presences =)
  215. Link Mauve zinid, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opt-in
  216. zinid rion, ok
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  218. Link Mauve Same for streaming stream-features, if it were negociated it would be fine to send them as a “nonza” whenever they change.
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  229. SaltyBones my turn, what's a nonza?
  230. zinid SaltyBones: not a stanza
  231. remko level-1 stream element like a stanza, but not a stanza
  232. remko so any direct child of <stream:stream> that isn't iq/presence/message
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  239. Dave Cridland SaltyBones, Nonza is a confusing made-up word that some people mistakenly think makes our specifications clearer.
  240. remko :)
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  242. edhelas nonzas are rare elements that you can find in some streams, they are difficult to observe and some developpers are still discussing about their existence
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  257. jonasw SaltyBones, cf. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0360.html
  258. jonasw Dave Cridland, I don’t find non-stanza stream-level elements very useful either ;-)
  259. Dave Cridland jonasw, Maybe, but it didn't take an entire spec to explain.
  260. SaltyBones Not sure if this is useful but for those who speak german or want to use google translate: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/messenger-matrix-das-xmpp-fuer-hobby-admins/
  261. SaltyBones The article argues why matrix is better than xmpp.
  262. jonasw Dave Cridland, I don’t think that we necessarily need a spec, but I think that having a term for that is useful; and in the end, all terms are kind of made up (like stanza); I’m not sure where your argument against that term comes from.
  263. Dave Cridland SaltyBones, Anything useful there?
  264. SaltyBones Dave Cridland, the most useful thing, imho, is the statement that $all_his_other_problems are due to his incompetence at setting up prosody correctly.
  265. SaltyBones Which, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard.
  266. Seve I'm guessing bad clients are also an argument in that article.
  267. jonasw is it though?
  268. SaltyBones jonasw, yes? :)
  269. Dave Cridland SaltyBones, It is, in part, the SRV records.
  270. jonasw you don’t even need those
  271. SaltyBones Seve, of course they are, especially iOS
  272. Ge0rG jonasw: yes it is.
  273. SaltyBones jonasw, just remember jabber without mam and stream management...
  274. jonasw SaltyBones, hm, good ponit
  275. jonasw I always forget about the more advanced features
  276. SaltyBones and setting up ejabberd...I mean I have it running but whenever I do more than use ejabberdctl I get stuck in the erlang shell :p
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  278. SaltyBones jonasw, the problem is they are not more advanced :) They are basic to the point of message loss without them
  279. jonasw SaltyBones, yeah, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be basic
  280. jonasw but I always forget about them when thinking about how difficult it is to set up a server
  281. jonasw (even though with 0.10, MAM should not be that much of a trouble anymore. isn’t it in core even now?)
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  283. Guus Want to show you how to setup a server in under a minute? 0:-)
  284. Guus (sans SRV records, granted)
  285. SaltyBones Well, yes? :)
  286. SaltyBones Make a youtube video!
  287. SaltyBones I'll post it under that article. :)
  288. Guus I actually made a video
  289. Guus 15 minutes
  290. SaltyBones awesome!
  291. Guus but it also gives you an EC2 setup and integration with our jitsi meet plugin
  292. Guus searching...
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  294. Guus bah, we migrated forums, and that thread is lost to me
  295. Guus (more searching)
  296. Seve Oh
  297. Guus https://discourse.igniterealtime.org/t/installing-openfire-4-2-0-alpha-and-ofmeet-0-9-1/62240
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  299. jonasw when a video opens with VLC, which you virtually never use and you’re confronted with this: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/EjZ7corpc2V-3hCD-slkA9f4XxK0w4uxoWP1BapKB3k.png
  300. SaltyBones "Don’t blindly follow these instructions, without giving thought to security, interoperability and performance."
  301. jonasw Guus, how about starting the video with a quick demo of what the end product will be able to do?
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  303. Guus SaltyBones: obligatory disclaimer.
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  305. Guus jonasw: yeah, it can be improved upon. But this doubles as an instruction for one of my customers that needed the EC2 bit as well.
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  308. Guus jonasw: also: I like that ascii-art encoding on vlc :)
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  310. SaltyBones Guus, I can post this but I still think a 1 Minute thing would be very cool. :)
  311. Guus SaltyBones: yeah, I think this one is to long
  312. SaltyBones I mean...not sure if you can actually do it in a minute .. ;)
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  314. Guus I'm 5 minutes in, and I am explaining about nightly builds :/
  315. jonasw SaltyBones, hm, I have ansible roles which work on debian jessie and stretch for prosody (both from package and from hg)
  316. jonasw maybe that’s worth sharing?
  317. jonasw but I think I write roles in a style which is very different from what everybody else using ansible does, so I’ve always been hesitant to share them
  318. Guus SaltyBones: 1 minute is hard while talking about it. But, to install: download platform specific installer, double-click installer, open browser and visit http://localhost:9090, fill out 4 screens, done.
  319. Guus depending on your download speed, you can do that in 1 minute.
  320. SaltyBones Guus, remind me tonight and I will try ;)
  321. Guus in my video, skip to 7:30
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  323. SaltyBones jonasw, if they work I think it would still be nice
  324. jonasw they *do* work. for me. they depend on my own homebrew ferm role though
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  327. zinid > Which, I agree, is an issue. Setting up xmpp servers is too hard 1. Postulate that servers are complex in XMPP by design 2. Cry they are hard to configure
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  329. jonasw zinid, browsers are complex too, but need 0 configuration.
  330. jonasw your argument is invalid :)
  331. zinid jonasw, yeah, that's why I have to always configure them
  332. daniel jonasw: my browser needs a lot of configuration to be barely usable
  333. jonasw daniel, sure, but you’re a poweruser
  334. zinid also, you can install a server by entering a hostname and never configure it, no problem
  335. jonasw most what other people do is install an ad-blocker if anything and be done with it
  336. zinid half will not be working, but the same is in browsers
  337. Seve Wow
  338. Seve I wonder how you use browsers that you have to configure them
  339. zinid Seve, and I wonder how the comparison holds?
  340. zinid you need DNS, opened ports and stuff like that for xmpp server
  341. zinid you don't need all this for browsers
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  343. zinid ah, and certfiles
  344. Seve Indeed
  345. zinid also, when I often hear "hard to configure", that means the software is compiled from master branch, installed in some obscure way with an obscure configuration file from stackoverflow
  346. daniel But ejabberd is fairly easy to install these days
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  349. zinid well, it still doesn't have gui configurator, so a lot of admins pass by
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  352. jonasw zinid, to be fair, when I see a gui configurator, I pass by
  353. jonasw :-)
  354. daniel I was about to say the same thing
  355. zinid jonasw, that's why you need to define audience first 🙂
  356. jonasw I don’t know how matrix is configured
  357. SaltyBones click on the link ;)
  358. Ge0rG None of this is going to solve the other problem shown by Roland. UI inconsistency and horrible iOS user experience
  359. jonasw SaltyBones, that’s not good for my blood pressure
  360. daniel I think the recommended approach for the matrix server is to curl pipe something to sh to install node and npm
  361. daniel And then do some weird node magic to install something that might still be missing dependencies
  362. daniel And that will break on the next OS Upgrade
  363. Guus daniel: that's true for 90% of all node.js projects, for me at least.
  364. SaltyBones daniel, it seems he is using python stuff
  365. SaltyBones don't see any node in there
  366. jonasw daniel, so we need to provide workable docker images
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  368. SaltyBones https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse <- python, not js
  369. Ge0rG So who is talking to the KDE people to convince them of XMPP?
  370. zinid Ge0rG, why to convince them? You cannot convince IRC users to use XMPP
  371. jonasw Ge0rG, Seve is
  372. Ge0rG zinid: please shut up.
  373. zinid Ge0rG, fuck off
  374. jonasw are you two going to have a fuck off-off now?
  375. Ge0rG jonasw: can we have some thimbleweed and Ennio Morricone please?
  376. Seve Ge0rG, I sent an email to JUser mailing list to see if I could gather some interest and help on writing some document showing what XMPP can do and what do we have in terms of clients and such. I would like to tell them that using XMPP is also safe bet on the long run and such things. Unfortunately, I've been taking a look at these fancy clients like Rock chat or stuff like that, and we are a bit behind...
  377. jonasw "a bit"
  378. Seve Yeah...
  379. Ge0rG Seve: but we are not run by a single company, and the KDE community is full of developers. We just need to market it as a challenge for them!
  380. Guus Seve, I'm wondering if the JUser mailing list is being used at all, these days.
  381. Guus the log files seem pretty empty: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/juser/
  382. jonasw Ge0rG, full of developers who have their plate full with their own challenges already, I’m afraid
  383. Ge0rG Seve: I fear writing to an abandoned list won't move us forward.
  384. Guus Seve, I suggest you (also?) mail to the members list, or jdev, depending on the subject.
  385. jonasw Guus, I think operators and members would be most appropriate.
  386. jonasw maybe developers, too, but operators have the practical experience
  387. zinid just send in all lists
  388. Seve Ge0rG, there's Kaidan https://github.com/KaidanIM/Kaidan Which I wanted to point out this, when writing to them, to let their community know about this project (which I could test at FOSDEM in a mobile phone).
  389. Seve This is not going to make a difference at all, but always worth mentioning them
  390. Seve Guus, Ge0rG: Yes, I knew JUser is not really used, but I was afraid of sending it to another list and listen to people say "WTF r u doin here"
  391. daniel Reading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them
  392. Guus Seve, don't worry to much about that :)
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  394. Guus daniel, why not? They list that the list does not distinguish between must-haves and nice-to-haves.
  395. Guus we're ticking an awful lot of boxes - and sure, we don't tick all of them.
  396. Guus no-one will.
  397. zinid > Reading their requirements I wouldn't recommend xmpp to them If "not locked by a single company" can be ommited, then there are plenty of solutions
  398. Kev I don't think we should persuade them to use XMPP.
  399. Kev Or, that shouldn't be our goal.
  400. zinid they already have xmpp-server at kde.org
  401. Kev Helping them understand whether XMPP can work for them for this, great, but using XMPP where it isn't appropriate shouldn't be a goal.
  402. Kev And helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us.
  403. daniel Guus: the thing is I don't think they are looking for a protocol but for existing software. I wouldn't know what desktop clients to recommend
  404. Kev I haven't looked at their requirements, but I assume there's some stuff in there that Swift doesn't do, else that's an obvious Qt-based option.
  405. Guus daniel, that, I understand. Are they currently defining a KDE-spec IRC desktop client?
  406. zinid Kev, how many people are working on Swift (if not a secret)? Why is it being developed so slowly? 🙂
  407. Ge0rG Kev [14:46]: > And helping us understand where XMPP isn't appropriate provides value to us. Do we have the personnel to collect that information and to act upon?
  408. zinid "act upon" by producing even more discussions!
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  410. SaltyBones my name is zinid, I hate XMPP and the XSF in particular, so I will hang out in their channel all day and make useless and aggressive remarks
  411. Guus Kev, looking at their list of requirements, an XMPP-based solution looks at least about as fitting as another solution. I'd definately not _not_ engage KDE.
  412. zinid SaltyBones, and what did you produce here?
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  414. Guus it's what he doesn't produce that doesn't make him appear as counterproductive.
  415. Guus (did I use the proper amount of double negatives there?)
  416. jonasw I don’t know
  417. Guus I've brought this up before: I do like us to have arguments, but lets try and keep this a non-hostile environment to discuss things.
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  425. Tobias vanitasvitae, there?
  426. vanitasvitae I am
  427. Tobias "Also almost all examples in the SIMS XEP are lacking a 'uri' attribute, which is mandatory according to §3.1 in references." - I see lots of uri attributes in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
  428. Tobias what am I missing?
  429. vanitasvitae The outer reference is missing the uri attribute
  430. vanitasvitae Take for example Example 1
  431. vanitasvitae The references in the source element are having uris, but the outer references dont
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  433. Tobias vanitasvitae, missing the SIMS URI?
  434. vanitasvitae ?
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  436. vanitasvitae My point is, that the References XEP makes an uri attribute mandatory
  437. Tobias ahh
  438. Tobias i see what you mean
  439. Tobias :)
  440. vanitasvitae :)
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  452. Tobias wonder what would make sense there. I think https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html should have an optional URI attribute if there's further content inside the reference
  453. Tobias don't know what Kev, author of References XEP, thinks about that
  454. Kev zinid: It's not a static number, because people work across all our XMPP stuff.
  455. Guus (I like how you referenced the author of the references xep there)
  456. Kev (Without using a reference)
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  458. Guus my client wouldn't recognize that either way, so I wasn't sure :)
  459. Kev Tobias: You mean an additional uri attribute over the one that's already there?
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  461. Tobias Kev, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html#example-1 I reference a shared file there, which is further described inside the references tag. the outer references tag doesn't have a URI element
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  464. Kev Ah, I see. Yes, if the 'referenced thing' is part of the reference, rather than external, not using a uri makes sense to me.
  465. Tobias someone should update the references XEP accordingly
  466. Tobias vanitasvitae, if you're planning to implement it, I think Movim supports it too :)
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  480. zinid Kev, I see
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  492. Ge0rG What about origin ids in references?
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  518. SaltyBones I tried to clean up my notes about yesterday's discussion and posted them to the mailing list.
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  522. Ge0rG SaltyBones: great!
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  659. Alex Memberbot is online for all XSF members
  660. Ge0rG Wow, significant loss in reapplications
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  664. Alex Ge0rG: ya
  665. daniel Alex: memberbot is not asking me if I want to cast my vote now
  666. Ge0rG lovetox: we lost you :(
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  668. Flow jonasw, separating the hashes in ecaps2 would only be beneficial if the features/forms of an entity change (frequently), or are the other cases?
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  672. SamWhited Alex, daniel: it appears to be panicing
  673. SamWhited > Error message from server: SleekXMPP got into trouble.
  674. SamWhited I'm getting an undefined-condition from it right before that.
  675. daniel23 has left
  676. Alex redis was not running on my server
  677. Alex sorry
  678. Alex please try again now
  679. Alex Always forget that the bot depends on Redis ;-)
  680. daniel Oh. And it looks my resource. I can't start voting on my phone and continue on my desktop. Very 00s 😀
  681. Alex I see only myself is this room right now
  682. Alex are there problems in xmpp.org, or is my client running crazy?
  683. Alex has left
  684. Zash Ye ol' MUC desync?
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  686. Ge0rG Alex: you've attempted to rely on TCP. Sorry.
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  717. Neustradamus I found a missing redirection: http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/faq/
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