XSF Discussion - 2018-02-15

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  97. jonasw jjrh, yeah, threading comes up once in a while
  98. jonasw there’s protocol support, but nobody has thought of a good UX which doesn’t break when not all clients participate
  99. Zash And how would you do the UI without getting in the way of the user?
  100. jonasw yeah
  101. jonasw all of that
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  104. Seve What do you mean?
  105. jonasw Seve, with what specifically?
  106. Seve 'getting in the way of the user'
  107. jonasw being more of a burden than it is useful
  108. Seve Ah, ok :)
  109. Seve Slack has threads, but I don't know how people use them.
  110. jonasw for example by being confusing or by requiring a lot of UI interaction which isn’t necessary otherwise for little gain etc. etc.
  111. Seve Thank you, I understand now :)
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  113. daniel i thought about the HTTP upload. I think i'm just gonna white list Authorize, Cookies and X-* Headers. if that's not enough to make your upload api work than so be it. and just white listing headers instead of introducing new syntax helps me to avoid a namespace bump.
  114. Zash But X-* is deprecated
  115. daniel ok. minus X- then. so holger has to live with putting his stuff in a cookie then
  116. jonasw daniel, Expires?
  117. daniel if it doesn't go through council with these rules then so be it
  118. daniel jonasw, Expires? really?
  119. jonasw yes; it could be signed in Authorization, but it would be telling the client how long the file will stay alive
  120. Zash Does it really need a (black|white)list?
  121. Holger I can live with abusing some header for my special use case. I still fail to see how this helps with security but meh.
  122. jonasw https://www.dropbox.com/developers/documentation/http/documentation
  123. jonasw are you kidding me
  124. jonasw this is a single html page, without index, which contains *all* the API endpoints of dropbox?
  125. jonasw so dropbox allows to use a query argument instead of an header, we’re good
  126. jonasw (otherwise, it’d need Dropbox-API-Arg)
  127. daniel jonasw, do they even have preauthed urls?
  128. jonasw daniel, dunno
  129. daniel that feels a bit un-dropboxy
  130. jonasw somebody mentioned it yesterday
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  133. daniel ok. expires, authorize and cookie it is then. but only because having three items in a white list sounds better then having just two
  134. jonasw nextcloud seems to be a plain PUT normally. I think they assume some Cookie or something.
  135. daniel jonasw, yes i brievely looked at these apis before and none of them seem to support preauth/one time upload things anyway
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  137. daniel so you probably wouldn't use them in practice anyway
  138. jonasw true
  139. daniel unless your server knows your own dropbox password or something weird
  140. jonasw yeah, S3 is probably the most relevant API thing then
  141. MattJ jonasw, NextCloud is Authorization or Cookie (I checked yesterday)
  142. MattJ S3 supports query string, including at least one of the clones I checked (minio)
  143. Zash In the case of Dropbox, it seems weird to me that the XMPP server would be the one that provides that service
  144. MattJ Zash, in my mind you link your XMPP account with Dropbox (via a page served by the XMPP service)
  145. Zash A transport!
  146. MattJ It gets OAuth-approved, and the credentials go into Authorization
  147. MattJ Ah, a fun thing
  148. Zash Couldn't all this be done locally without XMPP?
  149. Zash Assuming you have some kind of dropbox client installed
  150. MattJ I wonder if there are services where you don't know the GET location until you upload
  151. MattJ e.g. with Dropbox you would upload, and then you have to share the file to create a link for someone else to download it
  152. Zash Get some NextCloud and Dropbox devs into a room and don't let them out until they present a standard-ish interface (android intent) for this
  153. MattJ glhf
  154. daniel maybe we just leave the xep in experimental until someone actually writes a s3 or dropbox or whatever service
  155. daniel and then we'll know
  156. Zash Speaking of not knowing the location until after upload, I've got a bunch of things where the GET URL is dependent on the content of the files
  157. MattJ Ok, well I at least want to do an S3 one soon. I don't have NextCloud to test with, and Dropbox requires some OAuth stuff
  158. Zash Something something Location header returns the GET URL?
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  160. jonasw Zash, that sounds very reasonable
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  162. daniel ok. let's leave the xep experimental. you write the service with the location header (if the get url is omitted in the orignial slot response) and then we know if that works and change the xep
  163. jonasw daniel, how about "omit <get/> to indicate that the <put/> request will return the GET URL via Location header"?
  164. daniel let me know if you have something ready Zash and i get you a Conversations build to test this with
  165. Zash daniel: There's my pastebin, q.zash.se
  166. Zash Tho it receives as POST
  167. daniel that's probably i quick fix. and it would of course need to annouce itself over http upload
  168. daniel *a
  169. Zash Hm
  170. Zash Doesn't seem to use Location tho
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  173. Zash And now it does
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  175. jonasw does it also use PUT?
  176. Zash no
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  202. daniel https://gultsch.de/files/xep-0363.html
  203. daniel Ge0rG, does that sufficiently address your concerns as council?
  204. jonasw daniel, did you exclude newlines from the header values?
  205. jonasw from a quick glance I can’t see that
  206. daniel jonasw, yes. in december already
  207. jonasw maybe put that in the text above the example, too
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  209. daniel done
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  212. Ge0rG daniel: reading now, also "especially the file ending intact" --> "extension" is a better word here
  213. Ge0rG daniel: "MUST not" --> "MUST NOT"
  214. Ge0rG daniel: I'd say that this scheme is still susceptible to idiot developers. Please just define optional <authorization>, <cookie> and <expires> elements.
  215. jonasw > 07:22:50 daniel> i thought about the HTTP upload. I think i'm just gonna white list Authorize, Cookies and X-* Headers. if that's not enough to make your upload api work than so be it. > and just white listing headers instead of introducing new syntax helps me to avoid a namespace bump.
  216. Ge0rG oh.
  217. Zash Idiot proof protocol design?
  218. Ge0rG you don't technically need a namespace bump, you could work around it with caps.
  219. Ge0rG daniel: please also add a point to the Security about the client potentially being exploitable to SSRF / https://cwe.mitre.org/data/definitions/918.html
  220. Zash A namespace for every SHOULD and MAY
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  222. Zash Feature *
  223. Ge0rG Zash: much better than just incrementing the version each time.
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  225. Ge0rG the current proposal is much better, but then you end up with the XHTML-IM Implementor's Fallacy
  226. Zash Except for the complexity explosion
  227. Ge0rG better than before, that is.
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  230. Holger I disagree 🙂
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  233. Ge0rG Holger: with what exactly?
  234. Holger With it being better than before. But more discussion won't help I guess.
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  247. daniel Ge0rG, can you word that as a full normative sentence
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  250. Ge0rG daniel: yes, as soon as I find some time.
  251. daniel because i frankly don't understand the issue well enough to word that myself
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  254. daniel i'm not really sure what the client should do about this though
  255. daniel if your wifi router is broken your wifi router is broken
  256. daniel unless we really want to enforce some same origin stuff
  257. Ge0rG I think the most sane way is to prevent automatic re-requesting of slots.
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  262. Flow > Zash> And how would you do the UI without getting in the way of the user?
  263. Flow Remeber Google Wave?
  264. Flow It was/is even XMPP based
  265. Zash Flow: Remember how I'm probably the most anti-Google person here? Guess how much time I spent trying Wave
  266. Flow Not much since you are anti google?
  267. Flow Or is it the other way around: Young neutral Zash once tried Wave years ago and never looked at google again?
  268. Zash I assume it required a Google account, which I refuse to get.
  269. Flow The code is still around if you want to give it a second chance: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/wave.html
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  271. Flow Although the apache project retried 4 weeks ago :(
  272. Zash I read the specs. I meh'd.
  273. Zash Binary XML deltas in ProtocolBuffers over XMPP or somethincg
  274. Flow fancy
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  311. jonasw would anyone with a good overview of current client and server features be able to be available between 17:30Z and 18:30Z?
  312. jonasw I’m talking to the university person who wants to establish some IM thing and they already have XMPP in mind. I’d like to be able to answer questions about specific things
  313. Seve Would be awesome if there is someone!
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  315. Zash Am I awake then?
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  317. daniel jonasw: sure. If you mention me I'm available. Not that I'm necessarily the expert in client and server feature availability. But I know _some_ things
  318. jonasw cool
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  320. Dave Cridland jonasw, I know some stuff, but I'll be in and out around that time. But a mention *might* work.
  321. jonasw ok
  322. Zash jonasw: The magical time when most people are between work and home?
  323. Dave Cridland Zash, Home-office and settled-for-the-evening in my case.
  324. jonasw I didn’t choose that time :(
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  327. MattJ jonasw, I'll be around
  328. jonasw wee, a bunch of people :)
  329. Kev I'll be on a train at that time, without connectivity, sorry.
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  346. Kev SamWhited: I think Security Considerations in 393 could benefit from a note about stack exhaustion, given you're suggesting recursion for parsing.
  347. jonasw does it have a grammar by now?
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  352. daniel Kev, MattJ would you be ok with annocing the mam preferences (at least the current default) in the disco accounts features (as a form)? if so i can prepare a PR for the XEP
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  354. MattJ What's the reason?
  355. daniel i want to do my offline purge only if it is set to !never
  356. daniel and maybe during initial account setup prompt the user to enable it
  357. daniel w/o having to do the extra round trip for the preference discovery
  358. daniel primarily the first thing though. the other is just a nice bonus feature one could do
  359. jonasw can’t you interleave the preference discovery with other round-trips you have to do anyways?
  360. jonasw for account setup e.g. when setting the avatar
  361. jonasw or while the user picks the avatar or something like that
  362. daniel yes. that's why i said primarily the first thing
  363. jonasw maybe I’m confused what the first thing is; is it the offline purge?
  364. daniel yes
  365. jonasw if so, same argument holds, isn’t there something this can be paralleized with?
  366. Zash what is the offline purge?
  367. jonasw if so, same argument holds, isn’t there something this can be parallelized with?
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  369. daniel Zash, xep13
  370. jonasw Zash, -xep 13 i presume
  371. jonasw Zash, {xep 13} i presume
  372. Bunneh Zash: Flexible Offline Message Retrieval (Standards Track, Draft, 2005-07-14) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0013.html
  373. jonasw I’m starting to get this right!
  374. jonasw anyways, gotta run
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  376. daniel jonasw, still traffic… and more blocking things before i can go online. it's more complicated in the clients code if I have to wait for two things (disco and preferences)
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  382. MattJ daniel, I don't feel too great about this for a number of reasons
  383. MattJ and since it boils down to the XEP-0013 purge, even less so
  384. MattJ I think that should be solved a different way - Prosody doesn't even support XEP-0013
  385. MattJ Yet not sending offline messages to MAM clients is totally trivial and something I was planning to do anyway
  386. MattJ and doesn't require bloating disco queries
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  389. Ge0rG MattJ: please add it to 313.
  390. Ge0rG MattJ: also what we discussed regarding overlap of offline and MAM, and one of them being a pointer to the other one.
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  392. Holger How do you know it's a MAM client?
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  394. MattJ Holger, MAM request before initial presence
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  403. Kev I actually want preferences removed from 313 and split elsewhere, ideally.
  404. MattJ Yeah, I think that came up a couple of times in LC feedback, I'm in favour of that
  405. MattJ Also the pubsub stuff
  406. Ge0rG As long as there is a mechanism for the client to distinguish whether MAM was actively enabled on this account or not.
  407. daniel Ge0rG: why do clients need to tell?
  408. Ge0rG daniel: in the context of GDRP and generic data privacy considerations, a client should be able to tell the user that they give up their message contents now
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  411. daniel Ge0rG: I understand that a client might want to discover their settings. I don't understand why they need to discover the servers default
  412. Ge0rG daniel: let me rephrase that: the setting should be a tristate of "enabled / disabled / schroedinger"
  413. Ge0rG daniel: so a MAM-enabled client can move from schroedinger to enabled, but not override disabled to enabled if the user disabled MAM once.
  414. daniel i'm against clients enabling that automatically anyway. if anything it should ask during setup
  415. daniel but yes i understand your argument now
  416. Ge0rG during account setup? What if MAM is enabled later on? ;)
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  424. SamWhited Kev: maybe I should just say 'iterate over' then. Also, serious question, is that still a security issue? Do any compilers not put stack guards in place?
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  444. Kev Stack overflow is a thing, yeah. I think it's worth a security consideration suggesting limiting the depth of parsing.
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  449. Kev Well, overflow/exhaustion, anyway.
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  451. Guus XSF Board meeting time. Nyco, Ralphm and Martin sent apologies, that leaves you and me, MattJ
  452. MattJ I'm here
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  454. Guus Is there anything you'd like to discuss with the two of us present, MattJ?
  455. MattJ I don't think I have anything
  456. Guus As this is the second meeting in a row that we're about to skip, I'd like to invite others to have input now. I'd hate for people to not be able to bring something up, because of our inability to convene.
  457. Guus anyone?
  458. Guus going once...
  459. Guus If there's anything, please feel free to reach out in private, anytime
  460. Guus let's try this again in one week, MattJ :)
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  462. MattJ +1
  463. Guus ok, thanks. I'll send out the non-minutes
  464. MattJ unless we organise that high-bandwidth meeting in the meantime
  465. Guus agreed
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  470. Ge0rG Damn, I wanted to bring up something for Board.
  471. Ge0rG Totally missed the meeting due to a conf call.
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  474. Ge0rG I wanted to re-ask for the creation of a SPAM WG, with work around the Manifesto to be performed
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  476. Guus Ge0rG: I've seen various references to that renewed request in context of the manifesto mail thread. Would you mind pulling the re-request to form a team in a separate mail thread - perhaps include a proposal for a specific charter - for easy reference when we're going to discuss this?
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  479. Guus I'm kind of missing the benefit of having a work team (a group of people dedicated to this specific effort) for this, as I'd think that you'd want to include _everone_, not a select group - but I'm not _against_ forming a team for just that.
  480. Guus (if that made sense)
  481. SamWhited I don't think we've formed a working group that actually met more than once or twice or did anything at all since I've been here. I like the idea, but it might be helpful if you could find people that are willing to be members, will commit to doing work, and someone who can herd the cats when they don't show up first.
  482. Guus (as in, for things like iteam, or scam, it makes sense to me to be able to address a specific group of people. I'm not immediately seeing that for spam)
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  484. SamWhited SCAM might be the exception, because it has a cat herder named Guus.
  485. Guus well, if infra is broken, you know to talk to iteam
  486. Guus but that said, if just rubber-stamping a team helps the effort, I'm not against it.
  487. MattJ I think SCAM is different because it is more involved with the running of the XSF
  488. SamWhited That's true, it is rather different.
  489. MattJ It has allocated budget, etc.
  490. SamWhited Anyways, I'm not against it (not that I have any say, this is a board matter), it might be helpful if you found people first or wrote a charter though.
  491. MattJ The mandatory TLS manifesto did not have a working group - in fact it had almost nothing to do with the XSF, except possibly a blog post mention
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  493. Kev iteam is pretty involved with running the XSF too ;)
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  495. Kev But I think a SIG is probably more appropriate than a WG.
  496. Kev You don't want (I think) a formally-approved membership.
  497. Kev Or to only allow XSF members.
  498. Ge0rG I'm fine with a SIG as well.
  499. SamWhited oh, I didn't even realize we had a different concept for WG; I assumed Ge0rG meant SIG.
  500. Ge0rG I didn't know either.
  501. Kev We have SIGs and Work Teams.
  502. Kev Iteam and SCRAM are Work Teams. standards@ is a SIG.
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  510. Guus Is standards a SIG? (seems silly to have an organisation who's purpose it is to manage standards, to have a SIG for that)
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  512. Guus it thought that SIGs were the often time-limited groups for things like IOT spec advancement?
  513. Guus we're listing teams in the side-menu here: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/editor-team
  514. Guus (we should restructure that a bit)
  515. Guus but I'm not seeing references to our SIGs on the website. Are they defined by XEPs?
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  518. Guus (https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws section 8.2)
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  520. Guus Reading that, a SIG makes more sense than a WT for SPAM.
  521. Guus but, do we keep a list of what SIGs we currently have active?
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  567. jjrh jonasw, the best way I can think of to do threading is to basically have a '+' next to a top level message and then reply in that context. When someone comments to that thread you bring that top level message to the bottom. (similar to how email threading is displayed in many mail clients)
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  570. peter Guus: do you know a JID for Paweł Ścibiorski from the Summit? I need more information from him in order to complete his reimbursement...
  571. Guus peter, yes. alameyo@igniterealtime.org
  572. lskdjf has joined
  573. peter thanks!
  574. Guus you'll also find him in open_chat@conference.igniterealtime.org pretty much every day.
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  576. peter k
  577. jjrh I'm not sure how things would work for clients who don't support threading - it would be confusing for people with clients that support threading.
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  579. jjrh Since their 'reply' would not be tied to any thread.
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  587. jonasw jjrh, how does that work with clients which do not support htat?
  588. jonasw wouldn’t their replies look weird then?
  589. jjrh Yeah that's the problem - if we are having a threaded discussion and bill replies with a client that doesn't have threading it's going to look weird to us.
  590. jonasw yeah
  591. jonasw and that’s why threading doesn’t work, in a nutshell
  592. jonasw also, clicking to make a threaded reply is annoying
  593. Zash jonasw: what if you do heuristics based on this kind of reply?
  594. jonasw heuristics fail :(
  595. jjrh I'm not sure how to deal with that in a group chat without doing something weird like setting my username to jjrh391034 jjrh391035 in each message - so when you reply it would be to my username with the id and our clients would know to include it in the correct thread.
  596. jonasw not all replies have a leading nickname mention :-)
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  598. Zash assume they belong to the same thread as the last message
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  600. Zash how far could you get with some graph based heuristics?
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  602. Seve Well, things work when a popular client implements X and other clients are forced to implement X because that client has that.
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  605. Zash if two (sub)groups of people seem to be talking mostly among themselves, uh, surely there are fancy algoritms that could tell you about that
  606. jjrh well perhaps some sort of id appended to messages would work - If people with clients that don't support threading don't use the legacy way of inserting at least that id in their reply to a conversation well their message will be ignored / lost in the noise. Same way on a mailing list if someone just creates a new message to reply to a existing thread people will simply ignore it / not see it.
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  608. jjrh Zash, well what would be really neat is if one could find a way to essentially create a new MUC so the conversation moves there
  609. Zash did you just say that clients that don't implement this will implement it?
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  612. jjrh if all our messages end up with "Zash: #MESSAGEINGTHREADING_19230 , did you just say that clients that don't implement this will implement it?" for clients that don't support threading it's up to the user to include #MESSAGEINGTHREADING_19230 in their reply
  613. jjrh That's not a great way solution though.
  614. Zash the user isn't going to do that
  615. Zash see, I didn't even
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  617. Zash If you want an entirely separate room, then create one and invite people there
  618. Zash Surely it should be possible to send an invite to a room
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  620. jjrh I guess that's another way - if your client doesn't have threading support you get a message saying to join a room. That's a crummy solution too.
  621. Zash That's a more of a hard break tho, not what I imagine threading in a groupchat could be
  622. Zash I imagined that be more fluid
  623. jjrh What would be neat - providing everyone had a client that supported threading - is to figure out when a thread should basically become a new chat room. Effectively 'off topic' discussions wouldn't matter, if we start talking about the new starwars movie in xsf it wouldn't be disturbance because that conversation would quickly be migrated to a new room.
  624. Zash What would threading even look like in a real time groupchat?
  625. Zash I imagine you would get pretty far by just placing more focus on messages in your current thread
  626. Zash like, fate down the others a bit
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  628. jjrh Yeah - I think I would do something like have the top level show up in the main room #threading_in_xmpp every time so we know chatter in that topic is going on. Same way when I check my email for a mailing list the thread with the most recent reply gets bumped to the top. If i'm active in the discussion (have a chat tab open) in the main chat I wouldn't see that thread.
  629. jjrh I feel like even if every XMPP client supported threading and all of them did it reasonably well people would just not use it and things would mostly remain the way they are now.
  630. jjrh People (including myself) get stuck in the ways they are used to.
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  638. moparisthebest from a UX perspective how would I even indicate who (what thread) I am replying to?
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  640. Seve remembers people to check how Slack does that.
  641. Seve https://slackhq.com/threaded-messaging-comes-to-slack-417ffba054bd
  642. Seve https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/115000769927-Message-threads
  643. Seve Although I would search for a video or something, to see more clearly how it's done.
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  647. jonasw what’s a usable client on Mac OS?
  648. Steve Kille has left
  649. Ge0rG jonasw: adium and iMessage or so I heard. Not perfect though
  650. Ge0rG jonasw: maybe Swift 4
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  654. Ge0rG Seve: I've used slack threading once after it was released, but nobody else in my team did, and the UX felt somehow wrong
  655. Ge0rG Seve: so any news from KDE?
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  661. jonasw wat, matrix needs to poll if it can’t have google push foo?
  662. jonasw that’s fun
  663. Dave Cridland has left
  664. Zash What else would it do
  665. marc hm? matrix protocol uses polling?
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  667. jonasw marc, unless they can use google/apple push
  668. suzyo has joined
  669. marc wtf?
  670. jonasw yeah
  671. marc jonasw, ref?
  672. jonasw the settings in the app apparently
  673. Zash But http and json!
  674. jonasw marc, something about "sync interval"
  675. marc maybe this part: https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.3.0.html#syncing
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  677. moparisthebest jonasw, gajim and dino run on macos too right?
  678. andy has joined
  679. jonasw moparisthebest, I don’t know?
  680. jonasw do they?
  681. jonasw (gajim especially)
  682. moparisthebest pretty sure yes
  683. moparisthebest gajim almost certainly does
  684. jonasw okay
  685. moparisthebest Seve, so from https://slackhq.com/threaded-messaging-comes-to-slack-417ffba054bd they are just joining another muc that happens to be a split window from the main muc ?
  686. daniel I think it is planned to make dino work on macos. Due to the general beta state of it there might be bugs
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  691. Ge0rG Gajim isn't a client I would recommend to newcomers.
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  705. moparisthebest Ge0rG, well 'works' is better than 'doesn't work'
  706. moparisthebest and none of those other clients have mam/carbons I think
  707. daniel moparisthebest: well dino has both. But I hear it's still buggy
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  709. Ge0rG We need a client usability score
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  711. moparisthebest yes dino is fine too, I was mainly saying I'd recommend gajim over pidgin/adium all day
  712. daniel Sure. That I can agree with
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  716. jonasw can swift do MAM?
  717. jonasw (and gajim)
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  719. SamWhited Gajim can, Swift couldn't the last time I used it, but I know they've tried to modernize it a bit since then so it might be able to now.
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  721. jonasw SamWhited, released gajim or 1.0 beta?
  722. SamWhited I'm not sure, released I think. Give me a second and I'll see what I have installed
  723. jonasw thanks
  724. Seve/SouL has left
  725. SamWhited hmm, I thought the version I had on this machine did it, but I can't make it make a query (0.16.9) so maybe I did have the beta installed on my other machine or something
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  728. SamWhited Ah, I see, it does have MAM, just not a version I support. 0.16.9 supports mam:0, 1.0.0 beta supports :1 and :2
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  730. jonasw I see
  731. SamWhited https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/blob/gajim-1.0.0-alpha1/ChangeLog
  732. SamWhited They dropped OTR too, nifty.
  733. SamWhited But support EME now for some reason… I will never understand the Gajim decision making process.
  734. SamWhited oh, no, that's not what I thought it was. Nevermind, that makes sense.
  735. jonasw what’s wrong with EME?
  736. jonasw yeah
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  740. SamWhited I was thinking it was the old encryption mechanism that never got much adoption, I can't remember what it was called.
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  743. jjrh Ge0rG, +1 for client usability score. I'd factor in clients with support for XEP's which contribute to usability (message carbons for instance)
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  746. Ge0rG jjrh: I consider Carbons a MUST for many years now, but they are less urgent for single-client users.
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  748. Ge0rG OTOH, I don't have MAM in any of my actively used clients.
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  750. SamWhited I get really annoyed with mcabber for not having MAM, it's a terrible experience.
  751. SamWhited If I want to catch up on something I have to use Conversations
  752. Ge0rG SamWhited: you need leave mcabber 24/7, or make conversations use a negative priority.
  753. Ge0rG (this is a statement about the quirks of XMPP, first and foremost)
  754. jjrh I think it's problematic that a android client is one of the best XMPP clients
  755. Seve/SouL has joined
  756. jjrh problematic is probably the wrong word.
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  762. Ge0rG jjrh: sad?
  763. marc So let's be prepared for https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ :)
  764. Ge0rG What's really problematic is that it's not *my* android client! 😁
  765. marc "Partnering with Matrix Librem 5 is the first ever Matrix-powered smartphone, natively using end-to-end encrypted decentralised communication in its dialer and messaging app."
  766. Ge0rG We need more people in the SCAM team!
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  772. SaltyBones has anybody ever looked at matrix and if their stuff is accidentally actually good? :)
  773. marc Ge0rG, what's SCAM?
  774. SaltyBones I mean their "reference" client is not but who knows about the protocol :p
  775. marc SaltyBones, they rely on polling or an additional push protocol
  776. Ge0rG marc: our marketing team, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summits_Conferences_And_Meetups_team
  777. marc wtf
  778. marc Ge0rG, I want a hoodie!
  779. marc NOW!
  780. marc :D
  781. Ge0rG marc: you should've gone to FOSDEM
  782. Ge0rG I don't even want an XMPP hoodie. Sad. I'd rather have a Jabber one, but that will be 500$.
  783. marc Ge0rG, yeah, damn :D
  784. marc Ge0rG, how does the jabber hoodie look like?
  785. Ge0rG marc: no idea.
  786. jjrh The matrix web client is pretty
  787. Ge0rG Actually there is a hoodie I want to have. Front: "Schroedinger's Chat" Back: "XMPP Group Chat 1.0 Protocol"
  788. andy has joined
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  790. marc Ge0rG: I miss your name on the SCAM page ;)
  791. Ge0rG marc: I rather want to be on the SPAM page.
  792. SamWhited I've looked at Matrix a bit; the clients they wrote are nice, the protocol isn't (well, it would be good for other things, but not for chat or anything realtime)
  793. Ge0rG SamWhited: but http has won, together with Javascript and rest
  794. jjrh https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html they have quite a few clients.
  795. Ge0rG And XSS and https://www.mysonicwall.com/sonicalert/searchresults.aspx?ev=article&id=1107
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  797. daniel Oh til that couch db is still a thing
  798. daniel I wonder if it does multi threading now
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  804. SaltyBones i dont understand
  805. SaltyBones where are these nice clients
  806. SaltyBones everybody seems to use riot which is pretty awful
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  808. jjrh Riot looks pretty and is something that is familiar to folks (looks like slack/discord/fb messenger)
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  811. SamWhited Riot felt a bit cluttered at times, but it was pretty and worked more reliably than any XMPP desktop client I'd ever used up until that point.
  812. SamWhited And had more modern features.
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  814. SaltyBones i only know of video calls
  815. SaltyBones but that s pretty awesome
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  819. jjrh http://blogs.asterisk.org/2017/09/20/asterisk-15-multi-stream-media-sfu/ this stuff looks pretty nice
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  839. moparisthebest the best part about that is the GIF http://blogs.asterisk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/cmp2k_1.gif
  840. moparisthebest really takes you back
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  856. marc Ge0rG: your landing page should accept raw XMPP URIs
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  867. SaltyBones SamWhited, what's the problem with matrix's protocol?
  868. SamWhited It's a giant distributed graph protocol which will never scale very well
  869. SamWhited More or less everything syncs to everything else in a big mesh
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  877. SaltyBones What does it sync?
  878. SaltyBones has left
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  880. SamWhited Message history between whatever servers are a part of the conversation. Having history in multiple places isn't bad, but the big mesh they build and all the polling they do is rather chatty.
  881. Guus has left
  882. SaltyBones So if two people chat it would only involve two servers, right?
  883. SaltyBones Sounds benign and like xmpp...? :)
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  889. marc jonasw: does that mean that all native desktop client use polling? I assume Google Push is not available on Desktop
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