there’s protocol support, but nobody has thought of a good UX which doesn’t break when not all clients participate
Zash
And how would you do the UI without getting in the way of the user?
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
all of that
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Seve
What do you mean?
jonasw
Seve, with what specifically?
Seve
'getting in the way of the user'
jonasw
being more of a burden than it is useful
Seve
Ah, ok :)
Seve
Slack has threads, but I don't know how people use them.
jonasw
for example by being confusing or by requiring a lot of UI interaction which isn’t necessary otherwise for little gain etc. etc.
Seve
Thank you, I understand now :)
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daniel
i thought about the HTTP upload. I think i'm just gonna white list Authorize, Cookies and X-* Headers. if that's not enough to make your upload api work than so be it.
and just white listing headers instead of introducing new syntax helps me to avoid a namespace bump.
Zash
But X-* is deprecated
daniel
ok. minus X- then. so holger has to live with putting his stuff in a cookie then
jonasw
daniel, Expires?
daniel
if it doesn't go through council with these rules then so be it
daniel
jonasw, Expires? really?
jonasw
yes; it could be signed in Authorization, but it would be telling the client how long the file will stay alive
Zash
Does it really need a (black|white)list?
Holger
I can live with abusing some header for my special use case. I still fail to see how this helps with security but meh.
this is a single html page, without index, which contains *all* the API endpoints of dropbox?
jonasw
so dropbox allows to use a query argument instead of an header, we’re good
jonasw
(otherwise, it’d need Dropbox-API-Arg)
daniel
jonasw, do they even have preauthed urls?
jonasw
daniel, dunno
daniel
that feels a bit un-dropboxy
jonasw
somebody mentioned it yesterday
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daniel
ok. expires, authorize and cookie it is then. but only because having three items in a white list sounds better then having just two
jonasw
nextcloud seems to be a plain PUT normally. I think they assume some Cookie or something.
daniel
jonasw, yes i brievely looked at these apis before and none of them seem to support preauth/one time upload things anyway
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daniel
so you probably wouldn't use them in practice anyway
jonasw
true
daniel
unless your server knows your own dropbox password or something weird
jonasw
yeah, S3 is probably the most relevant API thing then
MattJ
jonasw, NextCloud is Authorization or Cookie (I checked yesterday)
MattJ
S3 supports query string, including at least one of the clones I checked (minio)
Zash
In the case of Dropbox, it seems weird to me that the XMPP server would be the one that provides that service
MattJ
Zash, in my mind you link your XMPP account with Dropbox (via a page served by the XMPP service)
Zash
A transport!
MattJ
It gets OAuth-approved, and the credentials go into Authorization
MattJ
Ah, a fun thing
Zash
Couldn't all this be done locally without XMPP?
Zash
Assuming you have some kind of dropbox client installed
MattJ
I wonder if there are services where you don't know the GET location until you upload
MattJ
e.g. with Dropbox you would upload, and then you have to share the file to create a link for someone else to download it
Zash
Get some NextCloud and Dropbox devs into a room and don't let them out until they present a standard-ish interface (android intent) for this
MattJ
glhf
daniel
maybe we just leave the xep in experimental until someone actually writes a s3 or dropbox or whatever service
daniel
and then we'll know
Zash
Speaking of not knowing the location until after upload, I've got a bunch of things where the GET URL is dependent on the content of the files
MattJ
Ok, well I at least want to do an S3 one soon. I don't have NextCloud to test with, and Dropbox requires some OAuth stuff
Zash
Something something Location header returns the GET URL?
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jonasw
Zash, that sounds very reasonable
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daniel
ok. let's leave the xep experimental. you write the service with the location header (if the get url is omitted in the orignial slot response) and then we know if that works and change the xep
jonasw
daniel, how about "omit <get/> to indicate that the <put/> request will return the GET URL via Location header"?
daniel
let me know if you have something ready Zash and i get you a Conversations build to test this with
Zash
daniel: There's my pastebin, q.zash.se
Zash
Tho it receives as POST
daniel
that's probably i quick fix. and it would of course need to annouce itself over http upload
daniel
*a
Zash
Hm
Zash
Doesn't seem to use Location tho
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Zash
And now it does
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jonasw
does it also use PUT?
Zash
no
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daniel
https://gultsch.de/files/xep-0363.html
daniel
Ge0rG, does that sufficiently address your concerns as council?
jonasw
daniel, did you exclude newlines from the header values?
jonasw
from a quick glance I can’t see that
daniel
jonasw, yes. in december already
jonasw
maybe put that in the text above the example, too
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daniel
done
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Ge0rG
daniel: reading now, also "especially the file ending intact" --> "extension" is a better word here
Ge0rG
daniel: "MUST not" --> "MUST NOT"
Ge0rG
daniel: I'd say that this scheme is still susceptible to idiot developers. Please just define optional <authorization>, <cookie> and <expires> elements.
jonasw
> 07:22:50 daniel> i thought about the HTTP upload. I think i'm just gonna white list Authorize, Cookies and X-* Headers. if that's not enough to make your upload api work than so be it.
> and just white listing headers instead of introducing new syntax helps me to avoid a namespace bump.
Ge0rG
oh.
Zash
Idiot proof protocol design?
Ge0rG
you don't technically need a namespace bump, you could work around it with caps.
Ge0rG
daniel: please also add a point to the Security about the client potentially being exploitable to SSRF / https://cwe.mitre.org/data/definitions/918.html
Zash
A namespace for every SHOULD and MAY
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Zash
Feature *
Ge0rG
Zash: much better than just incrementing the version each time.
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Ge0rG
the current proposal is much better, but then you end up with the XHTML-IM Implementor's Fallacy
Zash
Except for the complexity explosion
Ge0rG
better than before, that is.
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Holger
I disagree 🙂
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Ge0rG
Holger: with what exactly?
Holger
With it being better than before. But more discussion won't help I guess.
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daniel
Ge0rG, can you word that as a full normative sentence
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Ge0rG
daniel: yes, as soon as I find some time.
daniel
because i frankly don't understand the issue well enough to word that myself
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daniel
i'm not really sure what the client should do about this though
daniel
if your wifi router is broken your wifi router is broken
daniel
unless we really want to enforce some same origin stuff
Ge0rG
I think the most sane way is to prevent automatic re-requesting of slots.
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Flow
> Zash> And how would you do the UI without getting in the way of the user?
Flow
Remeber Google Wave?
Flow
It was/is even XMPP based
Zash
Flow: Remember how I'm probably the most anti-Google person here? Guess how much time I spent trying Wave
Flow
Not much since you are anti google?
Flow
Or is it the other way around: Young neutral Zash once tried Wave years ago and never looked at google again?
Zash
I assume it required a Google account, which I refuse to get.
Flow
The code is still around if you want to give it a second chance: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/wave.html
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Flow
Although the apache project retried 4 weeks ago :(
Zash
I read the specs. I meh'd.
Zash
Binary XML deltas in ProtocolBuffers over XMPP or somethincg
Flow
fancy
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jonasw
would anyone with a good overview of current client and server features be able to be available between 17:30Z and 18:30Z?
jonasw
I’m talking to the university person who wants to establish some IM thing and they already have XMPP in mind. I’d like to be able to answer questions about specific things
Seve
Would be awesome if there is someone!
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Zash
Am I awake then?
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daniel
jonasw: sure. If you mention me I'm available. Not that I'm necessarily the expert in client and server feature availability. But I know _some_ things
jonasw
cool
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Dave Cridland
jonasw, I know some stuff, but I'll be in and out around that time. But a mention *might* work.
jonasw
ok
Zash
jonasw: The magical time when most people are between work and home?
Dave Cridland
Zash, Home-office and settled-for-the-evening in my case.
jonasw
I didn’t choose that time :(
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MattJ
jonasw, I'll be around
jonasw
wee, a bunch of people :)
Kev
I'll be on a train at that time, without connectivity, sorry.
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Kev
SamWhited: I think Security Considerations in 393 could benefit from a note about stack exhaustion, given you're suggesting recursion for parsing.
jonasw
does it have a grammar by now?
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daniel
Kev, MattJ would you be ok with annocing the mam preferences (at least the current default) in the disco accounts features (as a form)? if so i can prepare a PR for the XEP
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MattJ
What's the reason?
daniel
i want to do my offline purge only if it is set to !never
daniel
and maybe during initial account setup prompt the user to enable it
daniel
w/o having to do the extra round trip for the preference discovery
daniel
primarily the first thing though. the other is just a nice bonus feature one could do
jonasw
can’t you interleave the preference discovery with other round-trips you have to do anyways?
jonasw
for account setup e.g. when setting the avatar
jonasw
or while the user picks the avatar or something like that
daniel
yes. that's why i said primarily the first thing
jonasw
maybe I’m confused what the first thing is; is it the offline purge?
daniel
yes
jonasw
if so, same argument holds, isn’t there something this can be paralleized with?✎
Zash
what is the offline purge?
jonasw
if so, same argument holds, isn’t there something this can be parallelized with? ✏
jonasw, still traffic… and more blocking things before i can go online. it's more complicated in the clients code if I have to wait for two things (disco and preferences)
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MattJ
daniel, I don't feel too great about this for a number of reasons
MattJ
and since it boils down to the XEP-0013 purge, even less so
MattJ
I think that should be solved a different way - Prosody doesn't even support XEP-0013
MattJ
Yet not sending offline messages to MAM clients is totally trivial and something I was planning to do anyway
MattJ
and doesn't require bloating disco queries
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Ge0rG
MattJ: please add it to 313.
Ge0rG
MattJ: also what we discussed regarding overlap of offline and MAM, and one of them being a pointer to the other one.
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Holger
How do you know it's a MAM client?
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MattJ
Holger, MAM request before initial presence
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Kev
I actually want preferences removed from 313 and split elsewhere, ideally.
MattJ
Yeah, I think that came up a couple of times in LC feedback, I'm in favour of that
MattJ
Also the pubsub stuff
Ge0rG
As long as there is a mechanism for the client to distinguish whether MAM was actively enabled on this account or not.
daniel
Ge0rG: why do clients need to tell?
Ge0rG
daniel: in the context of GDRP and generic data privacy considerations, a client should be able to tell the user that they give up their message contents now
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daniel
Ge0rG: I understand that a client might want to discover their settings. I don't understand why they need to discover the servers default
Ge0rG
daniel: let me rephrase that: the setting should be a tristate of "enabled / disabled / schroedinger"
Ge0rG
daniel: so a MAM-enabled client can move from schroedinger to enabled, but not override disabled to enabled if the user disabled MAM once.
daniel
i'm against clients enabling that automatically anyway. if anything it should ask during setup
daniel
but yes i understand your argument now
Ge0rG
during account setup? What if MAM is enabled later on? ;)
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SamWhited
Kev: maybe I should just say 'iterate over' then. Also, serious question, is that still a security issue? Do any compilers not put stack guards in place?
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Kev
Stack overflow is a thing, yeah. I think it's worth a security consideration suggesting limiting the depth of parsing.
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Kev
Well, overflow/exhaustion, anyway.
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Guus
XSF Board meeting time. Nyco, Ralphm and Martin sent apologies, that leaves you and me, MattJ
MattJ
I'm here
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Guus
Is there anything you'd like to discuss with the two of us present, MattJ?
MattJ
I don't think I have anything
Guus
As this is the second meeting in a row that we're about to skip, I'd like to invite others to have input now. I'd hate for people to not be able to bring something up, because of our inability to convene.
Guus
anyone?
Guus
going once...
Guus
If there's anything, please feel free to reach out in private, anytime
Guus
let's try this again in one week, MattJ :)
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MattJ
+1
Guus
ok, thanks. I'll send out the non-minutes
MattJ
unless we organise that high-bandwidth meeting in the meantime
Guus
agreed
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Ge0rG
Damn, I wanted to bring up something for Board.
Ge0rG
Totally missed the meeting due to a conf call.
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Ge0rG
I wanted to re-ask for the creation of a SPAM WG, with work around the Manifesto to be performed
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Guus
Ge0rG: I've seen various references to that renewed request in context of the manifesto mail thread. Would you mind pulling the re-request to form a team in a separate mail thread - perhaps include a proposal for a specific charter - for easy reference when we're going to discuss this?
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Guus
I'm kind of missing the benefit of having a work team (a group of people dedicated to this specific effort) for this, as I'd think that you'd want to include _everone_, not a select group - but I'm not _against_ forming a team for just that.
Guus
(if that made sense)
SamWhited
I don't think we've formed a working group that actually met more than once or twice or did anything at all since I've been here. I like the idea, but it might be helpful if you could find people that are willing to be members, will commit to doing work, and someone who can herd the cats when they don't show up first.
Guus
(as in, for things like iteam, or scam, it makes sense to me to be able to address a specific group of people. I'm not immediately seeing that for spam)
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SamWhited
SCAM might be the exception, because it has a cat herder named Guus.
Guus
well, if infra is broken, you know to talk to iteam
Guus
but that said, if just rubber-stamping a team helps the effort, I'm not against it.
MattJ
I think SCAM is different because it is more involved with the running of the XSF
SamWhited
That's true, it is rather different.
MattJ
It has allocated budget, etc.
SamWhited
Anyways, I'm not against it (not that I have any say, this is a board matter), it might be helpful if you found people first or wrote a charter though.
MattJ
The mandatory TLS manifesto did not have a working group - in fact it had almost nothing to do with the XSF, except possibly a blog post mention
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Kev
iteam is pretty involved with running the XSF too ;)
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Kev
But I think a SIG is probably more appropriate than a WG.
Kev
You don't want (I think) a formally-approved membership.
Kev
Or to only allow XSF members.
Ge0rG
I'm fine with a SIG as well.
SamWhited
oh, I didn't even realize we had a different concept for WG; I assumed Ge0rG meant SIG.
Ge0rG
I didn't know either.
Kev
We have SIGs and Work Teams.
Kev
Iteam and SCRAM are Work Teams. standards@ is a SIG.
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Guus
Is standards a SIG? (seems silly to have an organisation who's purpose it is to manage standards, to have a SIG for that)
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Guus
it thought that SIGs were the often time-limited groups for things like IOT spec advancement?
Guus
we're listing teams in the side-menu here: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/editor-team
Guus
(we should restructure that a bit)
Guus
but I'm not seeing references to our SIGs on the website. Are they defined by XEPs?
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Guus
(https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws section 8.2)
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Guus
Reading that, a SIG makes more sense than a WT for SPAM.
Guus
but, do we keep a list of what SIGs we currently have active?
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jjrh
jonasw, the best way I can think of to do threading is to basically have a '+' next to a top level message and then reply in that context. When someone comments to that thread you bring that top level message to the bottom. (similar to how email threading is displayed in many mail clients)
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peter
Guus: do you know a JID for Paweł Ścibiorski from the Summit? I need more information from him in order to complete his reimbursement...
Guus
peter, yes. alameyo@igniterealtime.org
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peter
thanks!
Guus
you'll also find him in open_chat@conference.igniterealtime.org pretty much every day.
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k
jjrh
I'm not sure how things would work for clients who don't support threading - it would be confusing for people with clients that support threading.
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jjrh
Since their 'reply' would not be tied to any thread.
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jonasw
jjrh, how does that work with clients which do not support htat?
jonasw
wouldn’t their replies look weird then?
jjrh
Yeah that's the problem - if we are having a threaded discussion and bill replies with a client that doesn't have threading it's going to look weird to us.
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
and that’s why threading doesn’t work, in a nutshell
jonasw
also, clicking to make a threaded reply is annoying
Zash
jonasw: what if you do heuristics based on this kind of reply?
jonasw
heuristics fail :(
jjrh
I'm not sure how to deal with that in a group chat without doing something weird like setting my username to jjrh391034 jjrh391035 in each message - so when you reply it would be to my username with the id and our clients would know to include it in the correct thread.
jonasw
not all replies have a leading nickname mention :-)
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Zash
assume they belong to the same thread as the last message
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Zash
how far could you get with some graph based heuristics?
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Seve
Well, things work when a popular client implements X and other clients are forced to implement X because that client has that.
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Zash
if two (sub)groups of people seem to be talking mostly among themselves, uh, surely there are fancy algoritms that could tell you about that
jjrh
well perhaps some sort of id appended to messages would work - If people with clients that don't support threading don't use the legacy way of inserting at least that id in their reply to a conversation well their message will be ignored / lost in the noise. Same way on a mailing list if someone just creates a new message to reply to a existing thread people will simply ignore it / not see it.
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jjrh
Zash, well what would be really neat is if one could find a way to essentially create a new MUC so the conversation moves there
Zash
did you just say that clients that don't implement this will implement it?
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jjrh
if all our messages end up with "Zash: #MESSAGEINGTHREADING_19230 , did you just say that clients that don't implement this will implement it?" for clients that don't support threading it's up to the user to include #MESSAGEINGTHREADING_19230 in their reply
jjrh
That's not a great way solution though.
Zash
the user isn't going to do that
Zash
see, I didn't even
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Zash
If you want an entirely separate room, then create one and invite people there
Zash
Surely it should be possible to send an invite to a room
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jjrh
I guess that's another way - if your client doesn't have threading support you get a message saying to join a room. That's a crummy solution too.
Zash
That's a more of a hard break tho, not what I imagine threading in a groupchat could be
Zash
I imagined that be more fluid
jjrh
What would be neat - providing everyone had a client that supported threading - is to figure out when a thread should basically become a new chat room. Effectively 'off topic' discussions wouldn't matter, if we start talking about the new starwars movie in xsf it wouldn't be disturbance because that conversation would quickly be migrated to a new room.
Zash
What would threading even look like in a real time groupchat?
Zash
I imagine you would get pretty far by just placing more focus on messages in your current thread
Zash
like, fate down the others a bit
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jjrh
Yeah - I think I would do something like have the top level show up in the main room #threading_in_xmpp every time so we know chatter in that topic is going on. Same way when I check my email for a mailing list the thread with the most recent reply gets bumped to the top. If i'm active in the discussion (have a chat tab open) in the main chat I wouldn't see that thread.
jjrh
I feel like even if every XMPP client supported threading and all of them did it reasonably well people would just not use it and things would mostly remain the way they are now.
jjrh
People (including myself) get stuck in the ways they are used to.
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moparisthebest
from a UX perspective how would I even indicate who (what thread) I am replying to?
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Severemembers people to check how Slack does that.
Although I would search for a video or something, to see more clearly how it's done.
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jonasw
what’s a usable client on Mac OS?
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Ge0rG
jonasw: adium and iMessage or so I heard. Not perfect though
Ge0rG
jonasw: maybe Swift 4
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Ge0rG
Seve: I've used slack threading once after it was released, but nobody else in my team did, and the UX felt somehow wrong
Ge0rG
Seve: so any news from KDE?
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jonasw
wat, matrix needs to poll if it can’t have google push foo?
jonasw
that’s fun
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Zash
What else would it do
marc
hm? matrix protocol uses polling?
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jonasw
marc, unless they can use google/apple push
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marc
wtf?
jonasw
yeah
marc
jonasw, ref?
jonasw
the settings in the app apparently
Zash
But http and json!
jonasw
marc, something about "sync interval"
marc
maybe this part: https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.3.0.html#syncing
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moparisthebest
jonasw, gajim and dino run on macos too right?
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jonasw
moparisthebest, I don’t know?
jonasw
do they?
jonasw
(gajim especially)
moparisthebest
pretty sure yes
moparisthebest
gajim almost certainly does
jonasw
okay
moparisthebest
Seve, so from https://slackhq.com/threaded-messaging-comes-to-slack-417ffba054bd they are just joining another muc that happens to be a split window from the main muc ?
daniel
I think it is planned to make dino work on macos. Due to the general beta state of it there might be bugs
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Ge0rG
Gajim isn't a client I would recommend to newcomers.
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moparisthebest
Ge0rG, well 'works' is better than 'doesn't work'
moparisthebest
and none of those other clients have mam/carbons I think
daniel
moparisthebest: well dino has both. But I hear it's still buggy
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Ge0rG
We need a client usability score
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moparisthebest
yes dino is fine too, I was mainly saying I'd recommend gajim over pidgin/adium all day
daniel
Sure. That I can agree with
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jonasw
can swift do MAM?
jonasw
(and gajim)
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SamWhited
Gajim can, Swift couldn't the last time I used it, but I know they've tried to modernize it a bit since then so it might be able to now.
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jonasw
SamWhited, released gajim or 1.0 beta?
SamWhited
I'm not sure, released I think. Give me a second and I'll see what I have installed
jonasw
thanks
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SamWhited
hmm, I thought the version I had on this machine did it, but I can't make it make a query (0.16.9) so maybe I did have the beta installed on my other machine or something
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SamWhited
Ah, I see, it does have MAM, just not a version I support. 0.16.9 supports mam:0, 1.0.0 beta supports :1 and :2
But support EME now for some reason… I will never understand the Gajim decision making process.
SamWhited
oh, no, that's not what I thought it was. Nevermind, that makes sense.
jonasw
what’s wrong with EME?
jonasw
yeah
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SamWhited
I was thinking it was the old encryption mechanism that never got much adoption, I can't remember what it was called.
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jjrh
Ge0rG, +1 for client usability score. I'd factor in clients with support for XEP's which contribute to usability (message carbons for instance)
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Ge0rG
jjrh: I consider Carbons a MUST for many years now, but they are less urgent for single-client users.
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Ge0rG
OTOH, I don't have MAM in any of my actively used clients.
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SamWhited
I get really annoyed with mcabber for not having MAM, it's a terrible experience.
SamWhited
If I want to catch up on something I have to use Conversations
Ge0rG
SamWhited: you need leave mcabber 24/7, or make conversations use a negative priority.
Ge0rG
(this is a statement about the quirks of XMPP, first and foremost)
jjrh
I think it's problematic that a android client is one of the best XMPP clients
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jjrh
problematic is probably the wrong word.
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Ge0rG
jjrh: sad?
marc
So let's be prepared for https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ :)
Ge0rG
What's really problematic is that it's not *my* android client! 😁
marc
"Partnering with Matrix Librem 5 is the first ever Matrix-powered smartphone, natively using end-to-end encrypted decentralised communication in its dialer and messaging app."
Ge0rG
We need more people in the SCAM team!
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SaltyBones
has anybody ever looked at matrix and if their stuff is accidentally actually good? :)
marc
Ge0rG, what's SCAM?
SaltyBones
I mean their "reference" client is not but who knows about the protocol :p
marc
SaltyBones, they rely on polling or an additional push protocol
I don't even want an XMPP hoodie. Sad. I'd rather have a Jabber one, but that will be 500$.
marc
Ge0rG, yeah, damn :D
marc
Ge0rG, how does the jabber hoodie look like?
Ge0rG
marc: no idea.
jjrh
The matrix web client is pretty
Ge0rG
Actually there is a hoodie I want to have.
Front: "Schroedinger's Chat"
Back: "XMPP Group Chat 1.0 Protocol"
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marc
Ge0rG: I miss your name on the SCAM page ;)
Ge0rG
marc: I rather want to be on the SPAM page.
SamWhited
I've looked at Matrix a bit; the clients they wrote are nice, the protocol isn't (well, it would be good for other things, but not for chat or anything realtime)
Ge0rG
SamWhited: but http has won, together with Javascript and rest
jjrh
https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html they have quite a few clients.
Ge0rG
And XSS and https://www.mysonicwall.com/sonicalert/searchresults.aspx?ev=article&id=1107
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daniel
Oh til that couch db is still a thing
daniel
I wonder if it does multi threading now
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SaltyBones
i dont understand
SaltyBones
where are these nice clients
SaltyBones
everybody seems to use riot which is pretty awful
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jjrh
Riot looks pretty and is something that is familiar to folks (looks like slack/discord/fb messenger)
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SamWhited
Riot felt a bit cluttered at times, but it was pretty and worked more reliably than any XMPP desktop client I'd ever used up until that point.
SamWhited
And had more modern features.
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SaltyBones
i only know of video calls
SaltyBones
but that s pretty awesome
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jjrh
http://blogs.asterisk.org/2017/09/20/asterisk-15-multi-stream-media-sfu/ this stuff looks pretty nice
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moparisthebest
the best part about that is the GIF http://blogs.asterisk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/cmp2k_1.gif
moparisthebest
really takes you back
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marc
Ge0rG: your landing page should accept raw XMPP URIs
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SaltyBones
SamWhited, what's the problem with matrix's protocol?
SamWhited
It's a giant distributed graph protocol which will never scale very well
SamWhited
More or less everything syncs to everything else in a big mesh
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SaltyBones
What does it sync?
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SamWhited
Message history between whatever servers are a part of the conversation. Having history in multiple places isn't bad, but the big mesh they build and all the polling they do is rather chatty.
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SaltyBones
So if two people chat it would only involve two servers, right?
SaltyBones
Sounds benign and like xmpp...? :)
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marc
jonasw: does that mean that all native desktop client use polling? I assume Google Push is not available on Desktop