jonaswjjrh, yeah, threading comes up once in a while
jonaswthere’s protocol support, but nobody has thought of a good UX which doesn’t break when not all clients participate
ZashAnd how would you do the UI without getting in the way of the user?
jonaswyeah
jonaswall of that
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SeveWhat do you mean?
jonaswSeve, with what specifically?
Seve'getting in the way of the user'
jonaswbeing more of a burden than it is useful
SeveAh, ok :)
SeveSlack has threads, but I don't know how people use them.
jonaswfor example by being confusing or by requiring a lot of UI interaction which isn’t necessary otherwise for little gain etc. etc.
SeveThank you, I understand now :)
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danieli thought about the HTTP upload. I think i'm just gonna white list Authorize, Cookies and X-* Headers. if that's not enough to make your upload api work than so be it.
and just white listing headers instead of introducing new syntax helps me to avoid a namespace bump.
ZashBut X-* is deprecated
danielok. minus X- then. so holger has to live with putting his stuff in a cookie then
jonaswdaniel, Expires?
danielif it doesn't go through council with these rules then so be it
danieljonasw, Expires? really?
jonaswyes; it could be signed in Authorization, but it would be telling the client how long the file will stay alive
ZashDoes it really need a (black|white)list?
HolgerI can live with abusing some header for my special use case. I still fail to see how this helps with security but meh.
jonaswthis is a single html page, without index, which contains *all* the API endpoints of dropbox?
jonaswso dropbox allows to use a query argument instead of an header, we’re good
jonasw(otherwise, it’d need Dropbox-API-Arg)
danieljonasw, do they even have preauthed urls?
jonaswdaniel, dunno
danielthat feels a bit un-dropboxy
jonaswsomebody mentioned it yesterday
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danielok. expires, authorize and cookie it is then. but only because having three items in a white list sounds better then having just two
jonaswnextcloud seems to be a plain PUT normally. I think they assume some Cookie or something.
danieljonasw, yes i brievely looked at these apis before and none of them seem to support preauth/one time upload things anyway
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danielso you probably wouldn't use them in practice anyway
jonaswtrue
danielunless your server knows your own dropbox password or something weird
jonaswyeah, S3 is probably the most relevant API thing then
MattJjonasw, NextCloud is Authorization or Cookie (I checked yesterday)
MattJS3 supports query string, including at least one of the clones I checked (minio)
ZashIn the case of Dropbox, it seems weird to me that the XMPP server would be the one that provides that service
MattJZash, in my mind you link your XMPP account with Dropbox (via a page served by the XMPP service)
ZashA transport!
MattJIt gets OAuth-approved, and the credentials go into Authorization
MattJAh, a fun thing
ZashCouldn't all this be done locally without XMPP?
ZashAssuming you have some kind of dropbox client installed
MattJI wonder if there are services where you don't know the GET location until you upload
MattJe.g. with Dropbox you would upload, and then you have to share the file to create a link for someone else to download it
ZashGet some NextCloud and Dropbox devs into a room and don't let them out until they present a standard-ish interface (android intent) for this
MattJglhf
danielmaybe we just leave the xep in experimental until someone actually writes a s3 or dropbox or whatever service
danieland then we'll know
ZashSpeaking of not knowing the location until after upload, I've got a bunch of things where the GET URL is dependent on the content of the files
MattJOk, well I at least want to do an S3 one soon. I don't have NextCloud to test with, and Dropbox requires some OAuth stuff
ZashSomething something Location header returns the GET URL?
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jonaswZash, that sounds very reasonable
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danielok. let's leave the xep experimental. you write the service with the location header (if the get url is omitted in the orignial slot response) and then we know if that works and change the xep
jonaswdaniel, how about "omit <get/> to indicate that the <put/> request will return the GET URL via Location header"?
daniellet me know if you have something ready Zash and i get you a Conversations build to test this with
Zashdaniel: There's my pastebin, q.zash.se
ZashTho it receives as POST
danielthat's probably i quick fix. and it would of course need to annouce itself over http upload
daniel*a
ZashHm
ZashDoesn't seem to use Location tho
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ZashAnd now it does
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jonaswdoes it also use PUT?
Zashno
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danielhttps://gultsch.de/files/xep-0363.html
danielGe0rG, does that sufficiently address your concerns as council?
jonaswdaniel, did you exclude newlines from the header values?
jonaswfrom a quick glance I can’t see that
danieljonasw, yes. in december already
jonaswmaybe put that in the text above the example, too
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Ge0rGdaniel: reading now, also "especially the file ending intact" --> "extension" is a better word here
Ge0rGdaniel: "MUST not" --> "MUST NOT"
Ge0rGdaniel: I'd say that this scheme is still susceptible to idiot developers. Please just define optional <authorization>, <cookie> and <expires> elements.
jonasw> 07:22:50 daniel> i thought about the HTTP upload. I think i'm just gonna white list Authorize, Cookies and X-* Headers. if that's not enough to make your upload api work than so be it.
> and just white listing headers instead of introducing new syntax helps me to avoid a namespace bump.
Ge0rGoh.
ZashIdiot proof protocol design?
Ge0rGyou don't technically need a namespace bump, you could work around it with caps.
Ge0rGdaniel: please also add a point to the Security about the client potentially being exploitable to SSRF / https://cwe.mitre.org/data/definitions/918.html
ZashA namespace for every SHOULD and MAY
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ZashFeature *
Ge0rGZash: much better than just incrementing the version each time.
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Ge0rGthe current proposal is much better, but then you end up with the XHTML-IM Implementor's Fallacy
ZashExcept for the complexity explosion
Ge0rGbetter than before, that is.
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HolgerI disagree 🙂
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Ge0rGHolger: with what exactly?
HolgerWith it being better than before. But more discussion won't help I guess.
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danielGe0rG, can you word that as a full normative sentence
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Ge0rGdaniel: yes, as soon as I find some time.
danielbecause i frankly don't understand the issue well enough to word that myself
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danieli'm not really sure what the client should do about this though
danielif your wifi router is broken your wifi router is broken
danielunless we really want to enforce some same origin stuff
Ge0rGI think the most sane way is to prevent automatic re-requesting of slots.
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Flow> Zash> And how would you do the UI without getting in the way of the user?
FlowRemeber Google Wave?
FlowIt was/is even XMPP based
ZashFlow: Remember how I'm probably the most anti-Google person here? Guess how much time I spent trying Wave
FlowNot much since you are anti google?
FlowOr is it the other way around: Young neutral Zash once tried Wave years ago and never looked at google again?
ZashI assume it required a Google account, which I refuse to get.
FlowThe code is still around if you want to give it a second chance: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/wave.html
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FlowAlthough the apache project retried 4 weeks ago :(
ZashI read the specs. I meh'd.
ZashBinary XML deltas in ProtocolBuffers over XMPP or somethincg
Flowfancy
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jonaswwould anyone with a good overview of current client and server features be able to be available between 17:30Z and 18:30Z?
jonaswI’m talking to the university person who wants to establish some IM thing and they already have XMPP in mind. I’d like to be able to answer questions about specific things
SeveWould be awesome if there is someone!
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ZashAm I awake then?
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danieljonasw: sure. If you mention me I'm available. Not that I'm necessarily the expert in client and server feature availability. But I know _some_ things
jonaswcool
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Dave Cridlandjonasw, I know some stuff, but I'll be in and out around that time. But a mention *might* work.
jonaswok
Zashjonasw: The magical time when most people are between work and home?
Dave CridlandZash, Home-office and settled-for-the-evening in my case.
jonaswI didn’t choose that time :(
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MattJjonasw, I'll be around
jonaswwee, a bunch of people :)
KevI'll be on a train at that time, without connectivity, sorry.
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KevSamWhited: I think Security Considerations in 393 could benefit from a note about stack exhaustion, given you're suggesting recursion for parsing.
jonaswdoes it have a grammar by now?
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danielKev, MattJ would you be ok with annocing the mam preferences (at least the current default) in the disco accounts features (as a form)? if so i can prepare a PR for the XEP
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MattJWhat's the reason?
danieli want to do my offline purge only if it is set to !never
danieland maybe during initial account setup prompt the user to enable it
danielw/o having to do the extra round trip for the preference discovery
danielprimarily the first thing though. the other is just a nice bonus feature one could do
jonaswcan’t you interleave the preference discovery with other round-trips you have to do anyways?
jonaswfor account setup e.g. when setting the avatar
jonaswor while the user picks the avatar or something like that
danielyes. that's why i said primarily the first thing
jonaswmaybe I’m confused what the first thing is; is it the offline purge?
danielyes
jonaswif so, same argument holds, isn’t there something this can be paralleized with?
Zashwhat is the offline purge?
jonaswif so, same argument holds, isn’t there something this can be parallelized with?
danieljonasw, still traffic… and more blocking things before i can go online. it's more complicated in the clients code if I have to wait for two things (disco and preferences)
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MattJdaniel, I don't feel too great about this for a number of reasons
MattJand since it boils down to the XEP-0013 purge, even less so
MattJI think that should be solved a different way - Prosody doesn't even support XEP-0013
MattJYet not sending offline messages to MAM clients is totally trivial and something I was planning to do anyway
MattJand doesn't require bloating disco queries
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Ge0rGMattJ: please add it to 313.
Ge0rGMattJ: also what we discussed regarding overlap of offline and MAM, and one of them being a pointer to the other one.
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HolgerHow do you know it's a MAM client?
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MattJHolger, MAM request before initial presence
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KevI actually want preferences removed from 313 and split elsewhere, ideally.
MattJYeah, I think that came up a couple of times in LC feedback, I'm in favour of that
MattJAlso the pubsub stuff
Ge0rGAs long as there is a mechanism for the client to distinguish whether MAM was actively enabled on this account or not.
danielGe0rG: why do clients need to tell?
Ge0rGdaniel: in the context of GDRP and generic data privacy considerations, a client should be able to tell the user that they give up their message contents now
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danielGe0rG: I understand that a client might want to discover their settings. I don't understand why they need to discover the servers default
Ge0rGdaniel: let me rephrase that: the setting should be a tristate of "enabled / disabled / schroedinger"
Ge0rGdaniel: so a MAM-enabled client can move from schroedinger to enabled, but not override disabled to enabled if the user disabled MAM once.
danieli'm against clients enabling that automatically anyway. if anything it should ask during setup
danielbut yes i understand your argument now
Ge0rGduring account setup? What if MAM is enabled later on? ;)
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SamWhitedKev: maybe I should just say 'iterate over' then. Also, serious question, is that still a security issue? Do any compilers not put stack guards in place?
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KevStack overflow is a thing, yeah. I think it's worth a security consideration suggesting limiting the depth of parsing.
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KevWell, overflow/exhaustion, anyway.
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GuusXSF Board meeting time. Nyco, Ralphm and Martin sent apologies, that leaves you and me, MattJ
MattJI'm here
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GuusIs there anything you'd like to discuss with the two of us present, MattJ?
MattJI don't think I have anything
GuusAs this is the second meeting in a row that we're about to skip, I'd like to invite others to have input now. I'd hate for people to not be able to bring something up, because of our inability to convene.
Guusanyone?
Guusgoing once...
GuusIf there's anything, please feel free to reach out in private, anytime
Guuslet's try this again in one week, MattJ :)
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MattJ+1
Guusok, thanks. I'll send out the non-minutes
MattJunless we organise that high-bandwidth meeting in the meantime
Guusagreed
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Ge0rGDamn, I wanted to bring up something for Board.
Ge0rGTotally missed the meeting due to a conf call.
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Ge0rGI wanted to re-ask for the creation of a SPAM WG, with work around the Manifesto to be performed
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GuusGe0rG: I've seen various references to that renewed request in context of the manifesto mail thread. Would you mind pulling the re-request to form a team in a separate mail thread - perhaps include a proposal for a specific charter - for easy reference when we're going to discuss this?
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GuusI'm kind of missing the benefit of having a work team (a group of people dedicated to this specific effort) for this, as I'd think that you'd want to include _everone_, not a select group - but I'm not _against_ forming a team for just that.
Guus(if that made sense)
SamWhitedI don't think we've formed a working group that actually met more than once or twice or did anything at all since I've been here. I like the idea, but it might be helpful if you could find people that are willing to be members, will commit to doing work, and someone who can herd the cats when they don't show up first.
Guus(as in, for things like iteam, or scam, it makes sense to me to be able to address a specific group of people. I'm not immediately seeing that for spam)
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SamWhitedSCAM might be the exception, because it has a cat herder named Guus.
Guuswell, if infra is broken, you know to talk to iteam
Guusbut that said, if just rubber-stamping a team helps the effort, I'm not against it.
MattJI think SCAM is different because it is more involved with the running of the XSF
SamWhitedThat's true, it is rather different.
MattJIt has allocated budget, etc.
SamWhitedAnyways, I'm not against it (not that I have any say, this is a board matter), it might be helpful if you found people first or wrote a charter though.
MattJThe mandatory TLS manifesto did not have a working group - in fact it had almost nothing to do with the XSF, except possibly a blog post mention
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Keviteam is pretty involved with running the XSF too ;)
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KevBut I think a SIG is probably more appropriate than a WG.
KevYou don't want (I think) a formally-approved membership.
KevOr to only allow XSF members.
Ge0rGI'm fine with a SIG as well.
SamWhitedoh, I didn't even realize we had a different concept for WG; I assumed Ge0rG meant SIG.
Ge0rGI didn't know either.
KevWe have SIGs and Work Teams.
KevIteam and SCRAM are Work Teams. standards@ is a SIG.
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GuusIs standards a SIG? (seems silly to have an organisation who's purpose it is to manage standards, to have a SIG for that)
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Guusit thought that SIGs were the often time-limited groups for things like IOT spec advancement?
Guuswe're listing teams in the side-menu here: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/editor-team
Guus(we should restructure that a bit)
Guusbut I'm not seeing references to our SIGs on the website. Are they defined by XEPs?
GuusReading that, a SIG makes more sense than a WT for SPAM.
Guusbut, do we keep a list of what SIGs we currently have active?
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jjrhjonasw, the best way I can think of to do threading is to basically have a '+' next to a top level message and then reply in that context. When someone comments to that thread you bring that top level message to the bottom. (similar to how email threading is displayed in many mail clients)
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peterGuus: do you know a JID for Paweł Ścibiorski from the Summit? I need more information from him in order to complete his reimbursement...
Guuspeter, yes. alameyo@igniterealtime.org
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peterthanks!
Guusyou'll also find him in open_chat@conference.igniterealtime.org pretty much every day.
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jjrhI'm not sure how things would work for clients who don't support threading - it would be confusing for people with clients that support threading.
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jjrhSince their 'reply' would not be tied to any thread.
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jonaswjjrh, how does that work with clients which do not support htat?
jonaswwouldn’t their replies look weird then?
jjrhYeah that's the problem - if we are having a threaded discussion and bill replies with a client that doesn't have threading it's going to look weird to us.
jonaswyeah
jonaswand that’s why threading doesn’t work, in a nutshell
jonaswalso, clicking to make a threaded reply is annoying
Zashjonasw: what if you do heuristics based on this kind of reply?
jonaswheuristics fail :(
jjrhI'm not sure how to deal with that in a group chat without doing something weird like setting my username to jjrh391034 jjrh391035 in each message - so when you reply it would be to my username with the id and our clients would know to include it in the correct thread.
jonaswnot all replies have a leading nickname mention :-)
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Zashassume they belong to the same thread as the last message
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Zashhow far could you get with some graph based heuristics?
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SeveWell, things work when a popular client implements X and other clients are forced to implement X because that client has that.
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Zashif two (sub)groups of people seem to be talking mostly among themselves, uh, surely there are fancy algoritms that could tell you about that
jjrhwell perhaps some sort of id appended to messages would work - If people with clients that don't support threading don't use the legacy way of inserting at least that id in their reply to a conversation well their message will be ignored / lost in the noise. Same way on a mailing list if someone just creates a new message to reply to a existing thread people will simply ignore it / not see it.
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jjrhZash, well what would be really neat is if one could find a way to essentially create a new MUC so the conversation moves there
Zashdid you just say that clients that don't implement this will implement it?
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jjrhif all our messages end up with "Zash: #MESSAGEINGTHREADING_19230 , did you just say that clients that don't implement this will implement it?" for clients that don't support threading it's up to the user to include #MESSAGEINGTHREADING_19230 in their reply
jjrhThat's not a great way solution though.
Zashthe user isn't going to do that
Zashsee, I didn't even
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ZashIf you want an entirely separate room, then create one and invite people there
ZashSurely it should be possible to send an invite to a room
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jjrhI guess that's another way - if your client doesn't have threading support you get a message saying to join a room. That's a crummy solution too.
ZashThat's a more of a hard break tho, not what I imagine threading in a groupchat could be
ZashI imagined that be more fluid
jjrhWhat would be neat - providing everyone had a client that supported threading - is to figure out when a thread should basically become a new chat room. Effectively 'off topic' discussions wouldn't matter, if we start talking about the new starwars movie in xsf it wouldn't be disturbance because that conversation would quickly be migrated to a new room.
ZashWhat would threading even look like in a real time groupchat?
ZashI imagine you would get pretty far by just placing more focus on messages in your current thread
Zashlike, fate down the others a bit
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jjrhYeah - I think I would do something like have the top level show up in the main room #threading_in_xmpp every time so we know chatter in that topic is going on. Same way when I check my email for a mailing list the thread with the most recent reply gets bumped to the top. If i'm active in the discussion (have a chat tab open) in the main chat I wouldn't see that thread.
jjrhI feel like even if every XMPP client supported threading and all of them did it reasonably well people would just not use it and things would mostly remain the way they are now.
jjrhPeople (including myself) get stuck in the ways they are used to.
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moparisthebestfrom a UX perspective how would I even indicate who (what thread) I am replying to?
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Severemembers people to check how Slack does that.
SeveAlthough I would search for a video or something, to see more clearly how it's done.
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jonaswwhat’s a usable client on Mac OS?
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Ge0rGjonasw: adium and iMessage or so I heard. Not perfect though
Ge0rGjonasw: maybe Swift 4
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Ge0rGSeve: I've used slack threading once after it was released, but nobody else in my team did, and the UX felt somehow wrong
Ge0rGSeve: so any news from KDE?
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jonaswwat, matrix needs to poll if it can’t have google push foo?
jonaswthat’s fun
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ZashWhat else would it do
marchm? matrix protocol uses polling?
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jonaswmarc, unless they can use google/apple push
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marcwtf?
jonaswyeah
marcjonasw, ref?
jonaswthe settings in the app apparently
ZashBut http and json!
jonaswmarc, something about "sync interval"
marcmaybe this part: https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.3.0.html#syncing
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moparisthebestjonasw, gajim and dino run on macos too right?
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jonaswmoparisthebest, I don’t know?
jonaswdo they?
jonasw(gajim especially)
moparisthebestpretty sure yes
moparisthebestgajim almost certainly does
jonaswokay
moparisthebestSeve, so from https://slackhq.com/threaded-messaging-comes-to-slack-417ffba054bd they are just joining another muc that happens to be a split window from the main muc ?
danielI think it is planned to make dino work on macos. Due to the general beta state of it there might be bugs
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Ge0rGGajim isn't a client I would recommend to newcomers.
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moparisthebestGe0rG, well 'works' is better than 'doesn't work'
moparisthebestand none of those other clients have mam/carbons I think
danielmoparisthebest: well dino has both. But I hear it's still buggy
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Ge0rGWe need a client usability score
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moparisthebestyes dino is fine too, I was mainly saying I'd recommend gajim over pidgin/adium all day
danielSure. That I can agree with
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jonaswcan swift do MAM?
jonasw(and gajim)
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SamWhitedGajim can, Swift couldn't the last time I used it, but I know they've tried to modernize it a bit since then so it might be able to now.
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jonaswSamWhited, released gajim or 1.0 beta?
SamWhitedI'm not sure, released I think. Give me a second and I'll see what I have installed
jonaswthanks
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SamWhitedhmm, I thought the version I had on this machine did it, but I can't make it make a query (0.16.9) so maybe I did have the beta installed on my other machine or something
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SamWhitedAh, I see, it does have MAM, just not a version I support. 0.16.9 supports mam:0, 1.0.0 beta supports :1 and :2
SamWhitedBut support EME now for some reason… I will never understand the Gajim decision making process.
SamWhitedoh, no, that's not what I thought it was. Nevermind, that makes sense.
jonaswwhat’s wrong with EME?
jonaswyeah
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SamWhitedI was thinking it was the old encryption mechanism that never got much adoption, I can't remember what it was called.
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jjrhGe0rG, +1 for client usability score. I'd factor in clients with support for XEP's which contribute to usability (message carbons for instance)
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Ge0rGjjrh: I consider Carbons a MUST for many years now, but they are less urgent for single-client users.
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Ge0rGOTOH, I don't have MAM in any of my actively used clients.
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SamWhitedI get really annoyed with mcabber for not having MAM, it's a terrible experience.
SamWhitedIf I want to catch up on something I have to use Conversations
Ge0rGSamWhited: you need leave mcabber 24/7, or make conversations use a negative priority.
Ge0rG(this is a statement about the quirks of XMPP, first and foremost)
jjrhI think it's problematic that a android client is one of the best XMPP clients
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jjrhproblematic is probably the wrong word.
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Ge0rGjjrh: sad?
marcSo let's be prepared for https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ :)
Ge0rGWhat's really problematic is that it's not *my* android client! 😁
marc"Partnering with Matrix Librem 5 is the first ever Matrix-powered smartphone, natively using end-to-end encrypted decentralised communication in its dialer and messaging app."
Ge0rGWe need more people in the SCAM team!
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SaltyBoneshas anybody ever looked at matrix and if their stuff is accidentally actually good? :)
marcGe0rG, what's SCAM?
SaltyBonesI mean their "reference" client is not but who knows about the protocol :p
marcSaltyBones, they rely on polling or an additional push protocol
Ge0rGI don't even want an XMPP hoodie. Sad. I'd rather have a Jabber one, but that will be 500$.
marcGe0rG, yeah, damn :D
marcGe0rG, how does the jabber hoodie look like?
Ge0rGmarc: no idea.
jjrhThe matrix web client is pretty
Ge0rGActually there is a hoodie I want to have.
Front: "Schroedinger's Chat"
Back: "XMPP Group Chat 1.0 Protocol"
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marcGe0rG: I miss your name on the SCAM page ;)
Ge0rGmarc: I rather want to be on the SPAM page.
SamWhitedI've looked at Matrix a bit; the clients they wrote are nice, the protocol isn't (well, it would be good for other things, but not for chat or anything realtime)
Ge0rGSamWhited: but http has won, together with Javascript and rest
jjrhhttps://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html they have quite a few clients.
Ge0rGAnd XSS and https://www.mysonicwall.com/sonicalert/searchresults.aspx?ev=article&id=1107
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danielOh til that couch db is still a thing
danielI wonder if it does multi threading now
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SaltyBonesi dont understand
SaltyBoneswhere are these nice clients
SaltyBoneseverybody seems to use riot which is pretty awful
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jjrhRiot looks pretty and is something that is familiar to folks (looks like slack/discord/fb messenger)
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SamWhitedRiot felt a bit cluttered at times, but it was pretty and worked more reliably than any XMPP desktop client I'd ever used up until that point.
SamWhitedAnd had more modern features.
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SaltyBonesi only know of video calls
SaltyBonesbut that s pretty awesome
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jjrhhttp://blogs.asterisk.org/2017/09/20/asterisk-15-multi-stream-media-sfu/ this stuff looks pretty nice
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moparisthebestthe best part about that is the GIF http://blogs.asterisk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/cmp2k_1.gif
moparisthebestreally takes you back
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marcGe0rG: your landing page should accept raw XMPP URIs
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SaltyBonesSamWhited, what's the problem with matrix's protocol?
SamWhitedIt's a giant distributed graph protocol which will never scale very well
SamWhitedMore or less everything syncs to everything else in a big mesh
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SaltyBonesWhat does it sync?
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SamWhitedMessage history between whatever servers are a part of the conversation. Having history in multiple places isn't bad, but the big mesh they build and all the polling they do is rather chatty.
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SaltyBonesSo if two people chat it would only involve two servers, right?
SaltyBonesSounds benign and like xmpp...? :)
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marcjonasw: does that mean that all native desktop client use polling? I assume Google Push is not available on Desktop