XSF Discussion - 2018-02-16

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  5. SamWhited sort of, it's polling based by default, IIRC so even with only two servers in a 1:1 it's not very efficient.
  6. SamWhited not that it really matters in that case for most people
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  91. Holger Yeah I think everyone runs it 24/7 so there's too little incentive to implement MAM.
  92. Holger (Er, the message I was responding to was old.)
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  95. Zash Threads plz
  96. Zash Or an in-reply-to thing
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  101. Seve Or real quotes and not just quotes :)
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  107. Ge0rG Seve: did you talk to KDE yet? 😉
  108. Seve Not yet, sorry. I've got a lot of work and haven't been able to put my hands on it :(
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  173. edhelas I'll have to work on a new XEP to store the user pubsub subscriptions in a PEP node
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  175. edhelas basically this XEP will be the same as https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html
  176. edhelas https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html sorry
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  178. edhelas except that the node will be configured in "whitelist"
  179. jonasw who would manage that list?
  180. jonasw the client?
  181. edhelas the clients
  182. jonasw hmm
  183. jonasw wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage its
  184. jonasw wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage it?
  185. edhelas each time you subscribe to a pubsub node you add your subscription in that list, the same way 0330 is doing
  186. edhelas jonasw I've mentionned that years ago, this need deep refactoring of how pubsub is handled in XMPP
  187. Ge0rG shouldn't the server automatically do the plumbing whenever you change that list, then?
  188. jonasw edhelas, does it?
  189. Ge0rG XMPP 2.0!
  190. jonasw the server can sniff the traffic just like it does for MIX
  191. edhelas so for now I'm going for this solution, I'm doing that in Movim for a while already
  192. Kev This is what Dave's PAM is for.
  193. jonasw alternatively, turn it the other way like Ge0rG suggests (modifications to the PEP node you’re proposing cause subscribes/unsubscribes)
  194. jonasw Kev, #?
  195. edhelas jonasw why not
  196. Kev 376
  197. Ge0rG edhelas: that would conveniently solve multi-client too
  198. edhelas Ge0rG how do you think this will fit with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html ?
  199. jonasw oh yes, XEP-0376 looks good
  200. Ge0rG edhelas: I think it would be good to have a private list for subscription maintenance and a public list which is a subset of that
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  207. Flow I always wonder if PAM couldn't be designed transparent using standard xep60 <subscription/>
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  209. jonasw Flow, yeah, like mix does it
  210. Flow jonasw, isn't/wasn't MIX supposed to be using PAM for that?
  211. jonasw I don’t think it does
  212. Flow IIRC PAM was a result of Dave's and Kev's persistent groupchat discussion
  213. Kev jonasw: It uses something very like PAM.
  214. Kev Flow: PAM was a Dave thing that I just jumped on because it makes sense for MIX, IIRC.
  215. Flow so if it makes sense, then why isn't MIX using it?
  216. Kev MIX is using the same model, waiting to see if it makes sense to merge into PAM, or keep out.
  217. Kev " In future, the specifications in this section MAY be moved to a separate XEP or it MAY be incorporated into Pubsub Account Management (XEP-0376) [18] (PAM) which follows a similar model. "
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  219. Steve Kille When I did the MIX editing, there was nothing I could usefully reference, so MIX includes what it needs.
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  232. Guus daniel, regarding your HTTP Upload 0.5 change: As various network components between the HTTP client and server might inject headers of their own, it feels wrong to me to impose a MUST on what headers clients are allowed to add. It implies that this defines the set of headers that the server receives. I suggest dropping the client requirement (as it's not really enforceable), and instead stress on a need for the server to ignore headers other than the allowed set.
  233. jonasw Guus, did you follow the can-of-worms discussion this was in the last few days :)
  234. jonasw the argument is that the server could exploit the client to send a request to a third party, for example your home router
  235. jonasw (essentially use the client as an HTTP proxy into the clients LAN)
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  237. Kev Sounds useful.
  238. jonasw to reduce the impact of that, the selection of headers was restricted; even though it’s not entirely clear to me how that helps in that scenario, really.
  239. Flow what jonasw said
  240. jonasw but Ge0rG kinda insisted on it
  241. Guus jonasw, I didn't follow that discussion, no.
  242. Zash Ough
  243. Guus I'm also not understanding the argument.
  244. Zash Bottomless can-of-worms?
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  246. jonasw Guus, essentially, it’s something along the lines of the Same Origin Policy enforced by browsers and the Cross-Origin Request Sharing policies
  247. Zash jonasw: Double infinite bottomless can-of-worms?
  248. Ge0rG We can't fix web security, we can only restrict how much we are affected by it
  249. daniel Guus: I don't not fully understand the argument either. But I'm not bothered by it and it won't go through council w/o that change
  250. Guus I'm not seeing how the client being prohibited to send certain headers prevents the server from sending anything it wants, abusive or not.
  251. daniel And I didn't even put headers into my original http upload
  252. Ge0rG Guus: with arbitrary headers you will make the xmpp client a reverse proxy for malicious xmpp servers.
  253. daniel Or let me rephrase that. I understand the problem (broken http interfaces in your local network). I'm not sure that limiting the headers does anything to fix your china router
  254. Guus can you spell out that attack vector for me Ge0rG?
  255. Guus (or point me to an archive?)
  256. Ge0rG Guus: have a look at http://blog.portswigger.net/2017/07/cracking-lens-targeting-https-hidden.html#host please
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  262. Holger Ge0rG: Isn't large parts of that article about playing with the request URI and the Host header? Which we place no restrictions on at all in XEP-0363?
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  267. Guus How does the client not sending certain headers outwards prevent the server from crafting malicious requests inwards?
  268. Holger Guus: The reasoning is preventing your XMPP server from crafting malicious HTTP PUT requests performed by your client.
  269. Flow Guus, hmm? It does not. But it's about the client performing requests
  270. Flow And those requests are handled by your (broken) home router
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  272. Guus right, now I get it.
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  275. Guus Thanks. I retract my earlier request to change the text :)
  276. Guus (it was initially unclear to me that the text restricts only the headers-to-be-copied-from-the-server-instructions)
  277. Holger I get the idea too, I just still don't agree with imposing an arbitrary restriction due to a diffuse feeling this might reduce the impact on an attack performed by your trusted XMPP service we have not yet understood. But meh.
  278. Guus <lunch>
  279. edhelas I'd like to know if it's possible to "rename" a pubsub node
  280. edhelas would be really useful, especially when you have namespaces bump
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  284. Holger edhelas: Won't the namespace usually only be bumped if the node contents change in some way?
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  287. edhelas well sometime you have clients that are developping features with their own namespace
  288. edhelas then it get standardized
  289. edhelas like for OMEMO and Conversations
  290. jonasw precisely the reason why the X-* antipattern was deprecated in the IETF
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  292. daniel Just wait for Ge0rG to find out that you can use jingle to port scan your contacts network 😂
  293. daniel Or have your contact scan other networks
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  295. daniel But we'll just grab the low hanging fruit before we get to the fancy stuff
  296. Ge0rG daniel: don't make me change my mind on Jingle Ft!
  297. daniel Idk. I vetoed it anyway
  298. daniel Not for that particular reason though
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  300. Ge0rG daniel: ah, right. outstanding feedback
  301. daniel but now i want to write a jingle portscanner. you could even distribute this among your contacts
  302. Holger Hehe I was thinking about Jingle exploits as well.
  303. jonasw daniel, build a webrtc portscanner. that should be much more impactful :)
  304. Holger Or SI/SOCKS5.
  305. Ge0rG https://medium.com/hownetworks/how-did-i-turn-my-browser-into-a-port-scanner-tricksy-but-doable-c37db85f9adc
  306. jonasw well, SOCKS5 is a proxy protocol. it is meant to be a proxy and open connections, people will probably have put the appropriate security measures on it to prevent abuse
  307. Ge0rG Also https://github.com/beefproject/beef/wiki/Module:-Port-Scanner
  308. Ge0rG jonasw: probably.
  309. Holger jonasw: Wenn but I meant abusing the SOCKS5 client as a proxy in the Ge0rG sense.
  310. jonasw oh;
  311. jonasw how does one trick a socks5 client into doing that?
  312. Holger jonasw: The server could send the client SI/Jingle initiation requests?
  313. jonasw I’m probably not familiar how things work here
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  315. Holger The nice thing is that the server could do so actively, rather than waiting for the client to request upload slots.
  316. daniel Holger, clients might not (auto) accept that though
  317. Holger Yes it will probably fail because they only support a different Jingle revision anyway.
  318. daniel :-)
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  351. intosi Hiding/obfuscation of your nickname on your (re)application is an unhelpful thing.
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  355. Guus yet, not new.
  356. intosi Not new, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention it when it happens, nor that we should consider whether we'd even want that.
  357. Guus Wasn't it Steve Jobs who didn't want his car to be identifiiable, and utilizing a legislation loophole where he could drive with a car without a number plate - thus making the car immediately stand out as his, as he was the only one doing that?
  358. intosi I'm not intimately familiar with the car collections of tech CEOs.
  359. Guus I always considered N********** to be a playful act.
  360. Guus https://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/27/mystery-solved-why-steve-jobs-car-never-had-a-license-plate/
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  362. intosi Amusing :)
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  381. jonasw I don’t even know who that N****+ is
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  383. Ge0rG or what?
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  385. Guus Go down the occupants list of this room, and you'll figure it out :)
  386. jonasw Guus, unless I’m stupid, there’s none whose nickname length macthes
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  389. mathieui there’s a letter missing I think
  390. mathieui two levels of obfuscation!
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  393. Guus I didn't count, but rough comparison will do :)
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  402. Dave Cridland French... N***... It's Nÿco, right?
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  410. SaltyBones this is discussion is exhausting
  411. SaltyBones my brain autocompletes "N****" like "the N word" and this is all very inappropriate
  412. pep. Dave Cridland: there's another French N
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  414. mathieui I like how nobody wants to invoke Neu stradamus
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  597. Neustradamus :D
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  600. Seve https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/msg02257.html
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  602. moparisthebest Wait Seve you are soul?
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  605. Guus yes he is
  606. moparisthebest Ah ok was confused, I hate name changes :)
  607. moparisthebest That email has the best quote ever
  608. moparisthebest In Finland we have a saying for this sort of process: climbing a tree butt-first.
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  616. MattJ I went to a Lua meet-up at FOSDEM, and at the end someone asked how the Lua community stayed in touch. "Maybe we should use Telegram?" - I broke down on the spot
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  618. Seve moparisthebest, yeah, decided to change my name here. It felt weird to me to say 'I'm SouL' in person at FOSDEM hah
  619. Seve I discovered that email because I've been reading all KDE emails regarding their migration from IRC to something else
  620. Neustradamus Seve: ah ah
  621. Neustradamus has left
  622. moparisthebest Seve: try saying hi I'm moparisthebest
  623. moparisthebest I solve that by just never meeting people in real life lol
  624. mathieui I still haven’t come up with a way of saying my nick in english non-awkwardly
  625. moparisthebest Also once I had to say lighttpd out loud in person
  626. moparisthebest Rough if you hadn't considered it before
  627. moparisthebest MattJ: did you chew them a new one lol
  628. SamWhited is always tempted to change his name to abarthisthebest
  629. SamWhited or maybe: "acuraisthebestbutonlythensxandoldpreludes"
  630. moparisthebest had to Wikipedia abarth
  631. moparisthebest I only like American, no replacement for displacement
  632. Seve MattJ, did you tell them: 'Do you know who are you talking with!?' Sad to hear that, though.
  633. SamWhited It wasn't a great comparison… I was trying to think of other car companies that had something like mopar, but I think the others named divisions all actually make cars
  634. moparisthebest SamWhited: GM is the analogy I always use
  635. moparisthebest General Motors
  636. Neustradamus has joined
  637. SamWhited Do they have a named division or something like that?
  638. SamWhited (what do you even call that?)
  639. moparisthebest Like GM is to Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac as Mopar is to Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth
  640. Neustradamus has left
  641. SamWhited GM is just the parent company of those brands though, isn't it? Mopar just sells parts for Fiat and Chryslers and builds the occasional rally car
  642. SamWhited GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Jeep or something like that
  643. moparisthebest Maybe technically but those cars are just collectivity called mopars
  644. SamWhited ah, okay
  645. moparisthebest And they share plants and engines and such
  646. moparisthebest The big yearly meet drag race and car show is called the Mopar Nationals etc
  647. SamWhited GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Mopar then
  648. SamWhited This is an important classification to get correct in this chat room, obviously.
  649. moparisthebest Haha so abarth and Chrysler/jeep/Dodge are all seemed by Fiat now looks like
  650. Neustradamus has joined
  651. SamWhited I think Fiat and Chrysler merged, and Chrysler owned Jeep and maybe Dodge? I can never keep it straight.
  652. moparisthebest Well again business wise maybe, but I'd just call them GM vehicles
  653. moparisthebest Well it changes yearly I think
  654. SamWhited Huh, apparently fiat owns Alfa Romeo too, I didn't realize that
  655. SamWhited And Lancia, weird. Wish they'd bring them back.
  656. SamWhited goes down the Wikipedia rabbit hole
  657. moparisthebest Let me know when it loops back around to XMPP, good luck
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  659. SamWhited We were talking about this at work yesterday actually… wikipedia races where each person starts on a random topic and has to get to a different topic only by clicking links on the page. Shortest path wins.
  660. SamWhited Fiat to XMPP would be a good one
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  663. moparisthebest That would be fun to program
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