XSF Discussion - 2018-02-16

  1. Syndace has joined

  2. Dave Cridland has left

  3. Syndace has joined

  4. Syndace has joined

  5. SamWhited

    sort of, it's polling based by default, IIRC so even with only two servers in a 1:1 it's not very efficient.

  6. SamWhited

    not that it really matters in that case for most people

  7. tux has joined

  8. tux has left

  9. tux has joined

  10. Guus has left

  11. Kev has left

  12. Dave Cridland has left

  13. lskdjf has left

  14. Dave Cridland has left

  15. nyco has left

  16. Syndace has left

  17. Syndace has joined

  18. matlag has left

  19. Dave Cridland has left

  20. jjrh has left

  21. jjrh has left

  22. jjrh has left

  23. Yagiza has joined

  24. Dave Cridland has left

  25. Guus has left

  26. waqas has joined

  27. jjrh has left

  28. jjrh has left

  29. jjrh has left

  30. lskdjf has left

  31. efrit has joined

  32. Dave Cridland has left

  33. Dave Cridland has left

  34. daniel has left

  35. daniel has joined

  36. lskdjf has left

  37. Dave Cridland has left

  38. efrit has left

  39. Zash has left

  40. Zash has left

  41. Zash has joined

  42. la|r|ma has left

  43. SamWhited has left

  44. Zash has left

  45. Zash has left

  46. Zash has left

  47. rion has joined

  48. Zash has left

  49. rion has left

  50. rion has joined

  51. andy has joined

  52. lskdjf has joined

  53. rion has left

  54. Dave Cridland has left

  55. la|r|ma has left

  56. Guus has left

  57. Guus has left

  58. la|r|ma has left

  59. suzyo has joined

  60. jjrh has left

  61. jjrh has left

  62. Dave Cridland has left

  63. Dave Cridland has left

  64. Dave Cridland has left

  65. Dave Cridland has left

  66. Dave Cridland has left

  67. SamWhited has left

  68. uc has left

  69. mimi89999 has left

  70. mimi89999 has left

  71. Dave Cridland has left

  72. mimi89999 has joined

  73. uc has joined

  74. Dave Cridland has left

  75. andy has left

  76. Dave Cridland has left

  77. Dave Cridland has left

  78. Dave Cridland has left

  79. Dave Cridland has left

  80. Neustradamus has left

  81. Neustradamus has joined

  82. rion has joined

  83. andy has joined

  84. rion has left

  85. Yagiza has left

  86. Yagiza has joined

  87. Guus has left

  88. ralphm has joined

  89. ralphm has left

  90. Dave Cridland has left

  91. Holger

    Yeah I think everyone runs it 24/7 so there's too little incentive to implement MAM.

  92. Holger

    (Er, the message I was responding to was old.)

  93. Dave Cridland has left

  94. Dave Cridland has left

  95. Zash

    Threads plz

  96. Zash

    Or an in-reply-to thing

  97. andy has left

  98. Guus has left

  99. valo has left

  100. valo has joined

  101. Seve

    Or real quotes and not just quotes :)

  102. ralphm has joined

  103. Dave Cridland has left

  104. Dave Cridland has left

  105. lovetox has joined

  106. rion has joined

  107. Ge0rG

    Seve: did you talk to KDE yet? 😉

  108. Seve

    Not yet, sorry. I've got a lot of work and haven't been able to put my hands on it :(

  109. lovetox has left

  110. Dave Cridland has left

  111. tim@boese-ban.de has joined

  112. Dave Cridland has left

  113. waqas has left

  114. Dave Cridland has left

  115. blabla has left

  116. moparisthebest has joined

  117. Kev has joined

  118. stefandxm has left

  119. goffi has joined

  120. Dave Cridland has left

  121. Dave Cridland has left

  122. ralphm has joined

  123. ralphm has joined

  124. Dave Cridland has left

  125. Dave Cridland has left

  126. Dave Cridland has left

  127. Guus has left

  128. @Alacer has left

  129. @Alacer has joined

  130. jubalh has joined

  131. matlag has left

  132. Guus has left

  133. Steve Kille has left

  134. nyco has left

  135. marc has joined

  136. Dave Cridland has left

  137. Steve Kille has joined

  138. rion has left

  139. rion has joined

  140. Dave Cridland has left

  141. Guus has left

  142. Dave Cridland has left

  143. Dave Cridland has left

  144. moparisthebest has left

  145. Steve Kille has left

  146. intosi has joined

  147. nyco has left

  148. Dave Cridland has left

  149. Dave Cridland has left

  150. Guus has left

  151. moparisthebest has joined

  152. Dave Cridland has left

  153. Dave Cridland has left

  154. Dave Cridland has left

  155. ralphm has left

  156. Dave Cridland has left

  157. Dave Cridland has left

  158. jubalh has left

  159. Alex has joined

  160. ralphm has joined

  161. ralphm has left

  162. ralphm has joined

  163. ralphm has left

  164. Dave Cridland has left

  165. Holger has left

  166. Dave Cridland has left

  167. Syndace has joined

  168. daniel has left

  169. stefandxm has joined

  170. Dave Cridland has left

  171. daniel has left

  172. daniel has left

  173. edhelas

    I'll have to work on a new XEP to store the user pubsub subscriptions in a PEP node

  174. Ge0rG has left

  175. edhelas

    basically this XEP will be the same as https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html

  176. edhelas

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html sorry

  177. remko has joined

  178. edhelas

    except that the node will be configured in "whitelist"

  179. jonasw

    who would manage that list?

  180. jonasw

    the client?

  181. edhelas

    the clients

  182. jonasw


  183. jonasw

    wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage its

  184. jonasw

    wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage it?

  185. edhelas

    each time you subscribe to a pubsub node you add your subscription in that list, the same way 0330 is doing

  186. edhelas

    jonasw I've mentionned that years ago, this need deep refactoring of how pubsub is handled in XMPP

  187. Ge0rG

    shouldn't the server automatically do the plumbing whenever you change that list, then?

  188. jonasw

    edhelas, does it?

  189. Ge0rG

    XMPP 2.0!

  190. jonasw

    the server can sniff the traffic just like it does for MIX

  191. edhelas

    so for now I'm going for this solution, I'm doing that in Movim for a while already

  192. Kev

    This is what Dave's PAM is for.

  193. jonasw

    alternatively, turn it the other way like Ge0rG suggests (modifications to the PEP node you’re proposing cause subscribes/unsubscribes)

  194. jonasw

    Kev, #?

  195. edhelas

    jonasw why not

  196. Kev


  197. Ge0rG

    edhelas: that would conveniently solve multi-client too

  198. edhelas

    Ge0rG how do you think this will fit with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html ?

  199. jonasw

    oh yes, XEP-0376 looks good

  200. Ge0rG

    edhelas: I think it would be good to have a private list for subscription maintenance and a public list which is a subset of that

  201. daniel has left

  202. Syndace has joined

  203. blabla has joined

  204. stefandxm has left

  205. stefandxm has joined

  206. daniel has left

  207. Flow

    I always wonder if PAM couldn't be designed transparent using standard xep60 <subscription/>

  208. Dave Cridland has left

  209. jonasw

    Flow, yeah, like mix does it

  210. Flow

    jonasw, isn't/wasn't MIX supposed to be using PAM for that?

  211. jonasw

    I don’t think it does

  212. Flow

    IIRC PAM was a result of Dave's and Kev's persistent groupchat discussion

  213. Kev

    jonasw: It uses something very like PAM.

  214. Kev

    Flow: PAM was a Dave thing that I just jumped on because it makes sense for MIX, IIRC.

  215. Flow

    so if it makes sense, then why isn't MIX using it?

  216. Kev

    MIX is using the same model, waiting to see if it makes sense to merge into PAM, or keep out.

  217. Kev

    " In future, the specifications in this section MAY be moved to a separate XEP or it MAY be incorporated into Pubsub Account Management (XEP-0376) [18] (PAM) which follows a similar model. "

  218. daniel has left

  219. Steve Kille

    When I did the MIX editing, there was nothing I could usefully reference, so MIX includes what it needs.

  220. daniel has left

  221. daniel has left

  222. daniel has left

  223. stefandxm has left

  224. stefandxm has joined

  225. daniel has left

  226. andy has joined

  227. daniel has left

  228. jubalh has joined

  229. daniel has left

  230. suzyo has joined

  231. daniel has left

  232. Guus

    daniel, regarding your HTTP Upload 0.5 change: As various network components between the HTTP client and server might inject headers of their own, it feels wrong to me to impose a MUST on what headers clients are allowed to add. It implies that this defines the set of headers that the server receives. I suggest dropping the client requirement (as it's not really enforceable), and instead stress on a need for the server to ignore headers other than the allowed set.

  233. jonasw

    Guus, did you follow the can-of-worms discussion this was in the last few days :)

  234. jonasw

    the argument is that the server could exploit the client to send a request to a third party, for example your home router

  235. jonasw

    (essentially use the client as an HTTP proxy into the clients LAN)

  236. jubalh has left

  237. Kev

    Sounds useful.

  238. jonasw

    to reduce the impact of that, the selection of headers was restricted; even though it’s not entirely clear to me how that helps in that scenario, really.

  239. Flow

    what jonasw said

  240. jonasw

    but Ge0rG kinda insisted on it

  241. Guus

    jonasw, I didn't follow that discussion, no.

  242. Zash


  243. Guus

    I'm also not understanding the argument.

  244. Zash

    Bottomless can-of-worms?

  245. daniel has left

  246. jonasw

    Guus, essentially, it’s something along the lines of the Same Origin Policy enforced by browsers and the Cross-Origin Request Sharing policies

  247. Zash

    jonasw: Double infinite bottomless can-of-worms?

  248. Ge0rG

    We can't fix web security, we can only restrict how much we are affected by it

  249. daniel

    Guus: I don't not fully understand the argument either. But I'm not bothered by it and it won't go through council w/o that change

  250. Guus

    I'm not seeing how the client being prohibited to send certain headers prevents the server from sending anything it wants, abusive or not.

  251. daniel

    And I didn't even put headers into my original http upload

  252. Ge0rG

    Guus: with arbitrary headers you will make the xmpp client a reverse proxy for malicious xmpp servers.

  253. daniel

    Or let me rephrase that. I understand the problem (broken http interfaces in your local network). I'm not sure that limiting the headers does anything to fix your china router

  254. Guus

    can you spell out that attack vector for me Ge0rG?

  255. Guus

    (or point me to an archive?)

  256. Ge0rG

    Guus: have a look at http://blog.portswigger.net/2017/07/cracking-lens-targeting-https-hidden.html#host please

  257. andy has left

  258. Dave Cridland has left

  259. suzyo has joined

  260. stefandxm has left

  261. stefandxm has joined

  262. Holger

    Ge0rG: Isn't large parts of that article about playing with the request URI and the Host header? Which we place no restrictions on at all in XEP-0363?

  263. Alex has left

  264. Zash has left

  265. remko has joined

  266. andy has joined

  267. Guus

    How does the client not sending certain headers outwards prevent the server from crafting malicious requests inwards?

  268. Holger

    Guus: The reasoning is preventing your XMPP server from crafting malicious HTTP PUT requests performed by your client.

  269. Flow

    Guus, hmm? It does not. But it's about the client performing requests

  270. Flow

    And those requests are handled by your (broken) home router

  271. daniel has left

  272. Guus

    right, now I get it.

  273. lskdjf has joined

  274. daniel has left

  275. Guus

    Thanks. I retract my earlier request to change the text :)

  276. Guus

    (it was initially unclear to me that the text restricts only the headers-to-be-copied-from-the-server-instructions)

  277. Holger

    I get the idea too, I just still don't agree with imposing an arbitrary restriction due to a diffuse feeling this might reduce the impact on an attack performed by your trusted XMPP service we have not yet understood. But meh.

  278. Guus


  279. edhelas

    I'd like to know if it's possible to "rename" a pubsub node

  280. edhelas

    would be really useful, especially when you have namespaces bump

  281. andy has left

  282. suzyo has joined

  283. suzyo has joined

  284. Holger

    edhelas: Won't the namespace usually only be bumped if the node contents change in some way?

  285. remko has joined

  286. Alex has joined

  287. edhelas

    well sometime you have clients that are developping features with their own namespace

  288. edhelas

    then it get standardized

  289. edhelas

    like for OMEMO and Conversations

  290. jonasw

    precisely the reason why the X-* antipattern was deprecated in the IETF

  291. Ge0rG has left

  292. daniel

    Just wait for Ge0rG to find out that you can use jingle to port scan your contacts network 😂

  293. daniel

    Or have your contact scan other networks

  294. remko has joined

  295. daniel

    But we'll just grab the low hanging fruit before we get to the fancy stuff

  296. Ge0rG

    daniel: don't make me change my mind on Jingle Ft!

  297. daniel

    Idk. I vetoed it anyway

  298. daniel

    Not for that particular reason though

  299. andy has joined

  300. Ge0rG

    daniel: ah, right. outstanding feedback

  301. daniel

    but now i want to write a jingle portscanner. you could even distribute this among your contacts

  302. Holger

    Hehe I was thinking about Jingle exploits as well.

  303. jonasw

    daniel, build a webrtc portscanner. that should be much more impactful :)

  304. Holger

    Or SI/SOCKS5.

  305. Ge0rG


  306. jonasw

    well, SOCKS5 is a proxy protocol. it is meant to be a proxy and open connections, people will probably have put the appropriate security measures on it to prevent abuse

  307. Ge0rG

    Also https://github.com/beefproject/beef/wiki/Module:-Port-Scanner

  308. Ge0rG

    jonasw: probably.

  309. Holger

    jonasw: Wenn but I meant abusing the SOCKS5 client as a proxy in the Ge0rG sense.

  310. jonasw


  311. jonasw

    how does one trick a socks5 client into doing that?

  312. Holger

    jonasw: The server could send the client SI/Jingle initiation requests?

  313. jonasw

    I’m probably not familiar how things work here

  314. andy has left

  315. Holger

    The nice thing is that the server could do so actively, rather than waiting for the client to request upload slots.

  316. daniel

    Holger, clients might not (auto) accept that though

  317. Holger

    Yes it will probably fail because they only support a different Jingle revision anyway.

  318. daniel


  319. andy has joined

  320. jubalh has joined

  321. jubalh has left

  322. suzyo has joined

  323. lumi has joined

  324. andy has left

  325. andy has joined

  326. Guus has left

  327. daniel has left

  328. remko has joined

  329. andy has left

  330. jubalh has left

  331. jubalh has left

  332. Guus has left

  333. Ge0rG has left

  334. Tobias has left

  335. jjrh has left

  336. la|r|ma has joined

  337. Yagiza has left

  338. Yagiza has left

  339. stefandxm has left

  340. stefandxm has joined

  341. Guus has left

  342. lumi has left

  343. Guus has left

  344. Dave Cridland has left

  345. Dave Cridland has left

  346. Tobias has joined

  347. la|r|ma has left

  348. la|r|ma has joined

  349. edhelas has left

  350. blabla has joined

  351. intosi

    Hiding/obfuscation of your nickname on your (re)application is an unhelpful thing.

  352. lskdjf has joined

  353. Ge0rG has left

  354. andy has joined

  355. Guus

    yet, not new.

  356. intosi

    Not new, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention it when it happens, nor that we should consider whether we'd even want that.

  357. Guus

    Wasn't it Steve Jobs who didn't want his car to be identifiiable, and utilizing a legislation loophole where he could drive with a car without a number plate - thus making the car immediately stand out as his, as he was the only one doing that?

  358. intosi

    I'm not intimately familiar with the car collections of tech CEOs.

  359. Guus

    I always considered N********** to be a playful act.

  360. Guus


  361. jjrh has left

  362. intosi

    Amusing :)

  363. jjrh has left

  364. jubalh has left

  365. Tobias has joined

  366. andy has left

  367. andy has joined

  368. bra has joined

  369. andy has left

  370. lskdjf has joined

  371. tux has left

  372. Alex has left

  373. bra has left

  374. bra has joined

  375. lumi has joined

  376. Yagiza has left

  377. jjrh has left

  378. jjrh has left

  379. jjrh has left

  380. jjrh has left

  381. jonasw

    I don’t even know who that N****+ is

  382. la|r|ma has joined

  383. Ge0rG

    or what?

  384. ralphm has joined

  385. Guus

    Go down the occupants list of this room, and you'll figure it out :)

  386. jonasw

    Guus, unless I’m stupid, there’s none whose nickname length macthes

  387. Zash has left

  388. Steve Kille has left

  389. mathieui

    there’s a letter missing I think

  390. mathieui

    two levels of obfuscation!

  391. Steve Kille has left

  392. Steve Kille has joined

  393. Guus

    I didn't count, but rough comparison will do :)

  394. andy has joined

  395. efrit has joined

  396. moparisthebest has left

  397. andy has left

  398. la|r|ma has left

  399. Ge0rG has left

  400. Ge0rG has left

  401. andy has joined

  402. Dave Cridland

    French... N***... It's Nÿco, right?

  403. Steve Kille has left

  404. Ge0rG has left

  405. Ge0rG has left

  406. Steve Kille has left

  407. Ge0rG has left

  408. lskdjf has left

  409. vanitasvitae has left

  410. SaltyBones

    this is discussion is exhausting

  411. SaltyBones

    my brain autocompletes "N****" like "the N word" and this is all very inappropriate

  412. pep.

    Dave Cridland: there's another French N

  413. Ge0rG has left

  414. mathieui

    I like how nobody wants to invoke Neu stradamus

  415. andy has left

  416. SaltyBones has left

  417. efrit has left

  418. vanitasvitae has left

  419. SamWhited has left

  420. Yagiza has joined

  421. stefandxm has left

  422. stefandxm has joined

  423. andy has joined

  424. ralphm has joined

  425. Alex has joined

  426. vanitasvitae has left

  427. andy has left

  428. Yagiza has left

  429. stefandxm has left

  430. jubalh has left

  431. vanitasvitae has left

  432. jubalh has left

  433. andy has joined

  434. jubalh has left

  435. bra has left

  436. bra has joined

  437. suzyo has joined

  438. andy has left

  439. Guus has left

  440. SaltyBones has left

  441. Guus has left

  442. Guus has left

  443. daniel has left

  444. Dave Cridland has left

  445. Dave Cridland has left

  446. stefandxm has joined

  447. daniel has left

  448. waqas has joined

  449. waqas has left

  450. remko has joined

  451. rion has left

  452. efrit has joined

  453. jubalh has joined

  454. andy has joined

  455. Guus has left

  456. stefandxm has left

  457. tux has left

  458. Zash has left

  459. bra has left

  460. bra has joined

  461. andy has left

  462. Guus has left

  463. tux has joined

  464. andy has joined

  465. bra has left

  466. bra has joined

  467. daniel has left

  468. daniel has left

  469. daniel has left

  470. daniel has left

  471. bra has left

  472. bra has joined

  473. Dave Cridland has left

  474. moparisthebest has joined

  475. Dave Cridland has left

  476. andy has left

  477. jubalh has left

  478. SaltyBones has left

  479. jubalh has joined

  480. Dave Cridland has left

  481. daniel has left

  482. andy has joined

  483. xnyhps has joined

  484. xnyhps has joined

  485. andy has left

  486. jubalh has left

  487. Yagiza has joined

  488. andy has joined

  489. andy has left

  490. stefandxm has joined

  491. lskdjf has joined

  492. daniel has left

  493. lskdjf has left

  494. daniel has left

  495. Yagiza has left

  496. lumi has joined

  497. lumi has joined

  498. Zash has left

  499. daniel has left

  500. stefandxm has left

  501. daniel has left

  502. daniel has left

  503. uc has left

  504. lumi has left

  505. lumi has joined

  506. daniel has left

  507. daniel has left

  508. daniel has left

  509. rion has left

  510. efrit has left

  511. Zash has left

  512. Dave Cridland has left

  513. ralphm has joined

  514. daniel has left

  515. daniel has left

  516. Dave Cridland has left

  517. efrit has joined

  518. Dave Cridland has left

  519. remko has joined

  520. lskdjf has joined

  521. la|r|ma has joined

  522. andy has joined

  523. Dave Cridland has left

  524. Guus has left

  525. jubalh has joined

  526. Guus has left

  527. Guus has left

  528. Dave Cridland has left

  529. Guus has left

  530. Dave Cridland has left

  531. Dave Cridland has left

  532. Dave Cridland has left

  533. remko has joined

  534. tux has joined

  535. tux has left

  536. Guus has left

  537. jjrh has left

  538. Dave Cridland has left

  539. Dave Cridland has left

  540. Dave Cridland has left

  541. Dave Cridland has left

  542. winfried has left

  543. Dave Cridland has left

  544. la|r|ma has joined

  545. Zash has left

  546. rion has joined

  547. lovetox has joined

  548. rion has left

  549. daniel has left

  550. jjrh has left

  551. Steve Kille has joined

  552. Zash has left

  553. Dave Cridland has left

  554. ralphm has joined

  555. ralphm has joined

  556. Dave Cridland has left

  557. lovetox has left

  558. winfried has left

  559. winfried has left

  560. winfried has left

  561. winfried has left

  562. winfried has left

  563. stefandxm has joined

  564. winfried has left

  565. winfried has left

  566. winfried has left

  567. ralphm has joined

  568. ralphm has joined

  569. Steve Kille has left

  570. Dave Cridland has left

  571. Dave Cridland has left

  572. stefandxm has left

  573. jere has joined

  574. ralphm has joined

  575. stefandxm has joined

  576. jere has left

  577. andy has left

  578. andy has joined

  579. Dave Cridland has left

  580. Dave Cridland has left

  581. remko has joined

  582. Guus has left

  583. ralphm has joined

  584. goffi has left

  585. andy has left

  586. jubalh has left

  587. Guus has left

  588. remko has joined

  589. Dave Cridland has left

  590. SaltyBones has left

  591. SaltyBones has joined

  592. lovetox has left

  593. lovetox has joined

  594. Alex has left

  595. lovetox has left

  596. lovetox has joined

  597. Neustradamus


  598. jubalh has joined

  599. lovetox has left

  600. Seve


  601. lovetox has joined

  602. moparisthebest

    Wait Seve you are soul?

  603. lovetox has left

  604. Alex has joined

  605. Guus

    yes he is

  606. moparisthebest

    Ah ok was confused, I hate name changes :)

  607. moparisthebest

    That email has the best quote ever

  608. moparisthebest

    In Finland we have a saying for this sort of process: climbing a tree butt-first.

  609. lovetox has joined

  610. tux has joined

  611. tux has left

  612. jubalh has left

  613. remko has joined

  614. lovetox has left

  615. lovetox has joined

  616. MattJ

    I went to a Lua meet-up at FOSDEM, and at the end someone asked how the Lua community stayed in touch. "Maybe we should use Telegram?" - I broke down on the spot

  617. lovetox has left

  618. Seve

    moparisthebest, yeah, decided to change my name here. It felt weird to me to say 'I'm SouL' in person at FOSDEM hah

  619. Seve

    I discovered that email because I've been reading all KDE emails regarding their migration from IRC to something else

  620. Neustradamus

    Seve: ah ah

  621. Neustradamus has left

  622. moparisthebest

    Seve: try saying hi I'm moparisthebest

  623. moparisthebest

    I solve that by just never meeting people in real life lol

  624. mathieui

    I still haven’t come up with a way of saying my nick in english non-awkwardly

  625. moparisthebest

    Also once I had to say lighttpd out loud in person

  626. moparisthebest

    Rough if you hadn't considered it before

  627. moparisthebest

    MattJ: did you chew them a new one lol

  628. SamWhited is always tempted to change his name to abarthisthebest

  629. SamWhited

    or maybe: "acuraisthebestbutonlythensxandoldpreludes"

  630. moparisthebest had to Wikipedia abarth

  631. moparisthebest

    I only like American, no replacement for displacement

  632. Seve

    MattJ, did you tell them: 'Do you know who are you talking with!?' Sad to hear that, though.

  633. SamWhited

    It wasn't a great comparison… I was trying to think of other car companies that had something like mopar, but I think the others named divisions all actually make cars

  634. moparisthebest

    SamWhited: GM is the analogy I always use

  635. moparisthebest

    General Motors

  636. Neustradamus has joined

  637. SamWhited

    Do they have a named division or something like that?

  638. SamWhited

    (what do you even call that?)

  639. moparisthebest

    Like GM is to Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac as Mopar is to Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth

  640. Neustradamus has left

  641. SamWhited

    GM is just the parent company of those brands though, isn't it? Mopar just sells parts for Fiat and Chryslers and builds the occasional rally car

  642. SamWhited

    GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Jeep or something like that

  643. moparisthebest

    Maybe technically but those cars are just collectivity called mopars

  644. SamWhited

    ah, okay

  645. moparisthebest

    And they share plants and engines and such

  646. moparisthebest

    The big yearly meet drag race and car show is called the Mopar Nationals etc

  647. SamWhited

    GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Mopar then

  648. SamWhited

    This is an important classification to get correct in this chat room, obviously.

  649. moparisthebest

    Haha so abarth and Chrysler/jeep/Dodge are all seemed by Fiat now looks like

  650. Neustradamus has joined

  651. SamWhited

    I think Fiat and Chrysler merged, and Chrysler owned Jeep and maybe Dodge? I can never keep it straight.

  652. moparisthebest

    Well again business wise maybe, but I'd just call them GM vehicles

  653. moparisthebest

    Well it changes yearly I think

  654. SamWhited

    Huh, apparently fiat owns Alfa Romeo too, I didn't realize that

  655. SamWhited

    And Lancia, weird. Wish they'd bring them back.

  656. SamWhited goes down the Wikipedia rabbit hole

  657. moparisthebest

    Let me know when it loops back around to XMPP, good luck

  658. jubalh has joined

  659. SamWhited

    We were talking about this at work yesterday actually… wikipedia races where each person starts on a random topic and has to get to a different topic only by clicking links on the page. Shortest path wins.

  660. SamWhited

    Fiat to XMPP would be a good one

  661. jubalh has left

  662. Guus has left

  663. moparisthebest

    That would be fun to program

  664. andy has joined

  665. winfried has left

  666. Guus has left

  667. andy has left

  668. ralphm has joined

  669. lumi has joined

  670. remko has joined

  671. daniel has left

  672. ralphm has left

  673. ralphm has joined

  674. Dave Cridland has left

  675. Dave Cridland has left

  676. Dave Cridland has left

  677. Dave Cridland has left

  678. Dave Cridland has left

  679. Dave Cridland has left

  680. suzyo has joined

  681. remko has joined

  682. Alex has left

  683. Dave Cridland has left

  684. Dave Cridland has left

  685. Dave Cridland has left

  686. andy has joined

  687. Dave Cridland has left

  688. Alex has joined

  689. Dave Cridland has left

  690. andy has left

  691. ralphm has joined

  692. ralphm has joined

  693. daniel has left

  694. lskdjf has left

  695. Dave Cridland has left

  696. SamWhited has left

  697. remko has joined

  698. Guus has left

  699. marc has left

  700. remko has left

  701. Guus has left

  702. Dave Cridland has left

  703. tux has joined

  704. jjrh has left

  705. blabla has joined

  706. Dave Cridland has left

  707. Dave Cridland has left

  708. lskdjf has left

  709. lskdjf has joined

  710. remko has joined

  711. ralphm has joined

  712. ralphm has joined