XSF Discussion - 2018-02-16


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  5. SamWhited

    sort of, it's polling based by default, IIRC so even with only two servers in a 1:1 it's not very efficient.

  6. SamWhited

    not that it really matters in that case for most people

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  91. Holger

    Yeah I think everyone runs it 24/7 so there's too little incentive to implement MAM.

  92. Holger

    (Er, the message I was responding to was old.)

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  95. Zash

    Threads plz

  96. Zash

    Or an in-reply-to thing

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  101. Seve

    Or real quotes and not just quotes :)

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  107. Ge0rG

    Seve: did you talk to KDE yet? 😉

  108. Seve

    Not yet, sorry. I've got a lot of work and haven't been able to put my hands on it :(

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  173. edhelas

    I'll have to work on a new XEP to store the user pubsub subscriptions in a PEP node

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  175. edhelas

    basically this XEP will be the same as https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0333.html

  176. edhelas

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html sorry

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  178. edhelas

    except that the node will be configured in "whitelist"

  179. jonasw

    who would manage that list?

  180. jonasw

    the client?

  181. edhelas

    the clients

  182. jonasw

    hmm

  183. jonasw

    wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage its

  184. jonasw

    wouldn’t it be better to have the server manage it?

  185. edhelas

    each time you subscribe to a pubsub node you add your subscription in that list, the same way 0330 is doing

  186. edhelas

    jonasw I've mentionned that years ago, this need deep refactoring of how pubsub is handled in XMPP

  187. Ge0rG

    shouldn't the server automatically do the plumbing whenever you change that list, then?

  188. jonasw

    edhelas, does it?

  189. Ge0rG

    XMPP 2.0!

  190. jonasw

    the server can sniff the traffic just like it does for MIX

  191. edhelas

    so for now I'm going for this solution, I'm doing that in Movim for a while already

  192. Kev

    This is what Dave's PAM is for.

  193. jonasw

    alternatively, turn it the other way like Ge0rG suggests (modifications to the PEP node you’re proposing cause subscribes/unsubscribes)

  194. jonasw

    Kev, #?

  195. edhelas

    jonasw why not

  196. Kev

    376

  197. Ge0rG

    edhelas: that would conveniently solve multi-client too

  198. edhelas

    Ge0rG how do you think this will fit with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0330.html ?

  199. jonasw

    oh yes, XEP-0376 looks good

  200. Ge0rG

    edhelas: I think it would be good to have a private list for subscription maintenance and a public list which is a subset of that

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  207. Flow

    I always wonder if PAM couldn't be designed transparent using standard xep60 <subscription/>

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  209. jonasw

    Flow, yeah, like mix does it

  210. Flow

    jonasw, isn't/wasn't MIX supposed to be using PAM for that?

  211. jonasw

    I don’t think it does

  212. Flow

    IIRC PAM was a result of Dave's and Kev's persistent groupchat discussion

  213. Kev

    jonasw: It uses something very like PAM.

  214. Kev

    Flow: PAM was a Dave thing that I just jumped on because it makes sense for MIX, IIRC.

  215. Flow

    so if it makes sense, then why isn't MIX using it?

  216. Kev

    MIX is using the same model, waiting to see if it makes sense to merge into PAM, or keep out.

  217. Kev

    " In future, the specifications in this section MAY be moved to a separate XEP or it MAY be incorporated into Pubsub Account Management (XEP-0376) [18] (PAM) which follows a similar model. "

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  219. Steve Kille

    When I did the MIX editing, there was nothing I could usefully reference, so MIX includes what it needs.

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  232. Guus

    daniel, regarding your HTTP Upload 0.5 change: As various network components between the HTTP client and server might inject headers of their own, it feels wrong to me to impose a MUST on what headers clients are allowed to add. It implies that this defines the set of headers that the server receives. I suggest dropping the client requirement (as it's not really enforceable), and instead stress on a need for the server to ignore headers other than the allowed set.

  233. jonasw

    Guus, did you follow the can-of-worms discussion this was in the last few days :)

  234. jonasw

    the argument is that the server could exploit the client to send a request to a third party, for example your home router

  235. jonasw

    (essentially use the client as an HTTP proxy into the clients LAN)

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  237. Kev

    Sounds useful.

  238. jonasw

    to reduce the impact of that, the selection of headers was restricted; even though it’s not entirely clear to me how that helps in that scenario, really.

  239. Flow

    what jonasw said

  240. jonasw

    but Ge0rG kinda insisted on it

  241. Guus

    jonasw, I didn't follow that discussion, no.

  242. Zash

    Ough

  243. Guus

    I'm also not understanding the argument.

  244. Zash

    Bottomless can-of-worms?

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  246. jonasw

    Guus, essentially, it’s something along the lines of the Same Origin Policy enforced by browsers and the Cross-Origin Request Sharing policies

  247. Zash

    jonasw: Double infinite bottomless can-of-worms?

  248. Ge0rG

    We can't fix web security, we can only restrict how much we are affected by it

  249. daniel

    Guus: I don't not fully understand the argument either. But I'm not bothered by it and it won't go through council w/o that change

  250. Guus

    I'm not seeing how the client being prohibited to send certain headers prevents the server from sending anything it wants, abusive or not.

  251. daniel

    And I didn't even put headers into my original http upload

  252. Ge0rG

    Guus: with arbitrary headers you will make the xmpp client a reverse proxy for malicious xmpp servers.

  253. daniel

    Or let me rephrase that. I understand the problem (broken http interfaces in your local network). I'm not sure that limiting the headers does anything to fix your china router

  254. Guus

    can you spell out that attack vector for me Ge0rG?

  255. Guus

    (or point me to an archive?)

  256. Ge0rG

    Guus: have a look at http://blog.portswigger.net/2017/07/cracking-lens-targeting-https-hidden.html#host please

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  262. Holger

    Ge0rG: Isn't large parts of that article about playing with the request URI and the Host header? Which we place no restrictions on at all in XEP-0363?

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  267. Guus

    How does the client not sending certain headers outwards prevent the server from crafting malicious requests inwards?

  268. Holger

    Guus: The reasoning is preventing your XMPP server from crafting malicious HTTP PUT requests performed by your client.

  269. Flow

    Guus, hmm? It does not. But it's about the client performing requests

  270. Flow

    And those requests are handled by your (broken) home router

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  272. Guus

    right, now I get it.

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  275. Guus

    Thanks. I retract my earlier request to change the text :)

  276. Guus

    (it was initially unclear to me that the text restricts only the headers-to-be-copied-from-the-server-instructions)

  277. Holger

    I get the idea too, I just still don't agree with imposing an arbitrary restriction due to a diffuse feeling this might reduce the impact on an attack performed by your trusted XMPP service we have not yet understood. But meh.

  278. Guus

    <lunch>

  279. edhelas

    I'd like to know if it's possible to "rename" a pubsub node

  280. edhelas

    would be really useful, especially when you have namespaces bump

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  284. Holger

    edhelas: Won't the namespace usually only be bumped if the node contents change in some way?

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  287. edhelas

    well sometime you have clients that are developping features with their own namespace

  288. edhelas

    then it get standardized

  289. edhelas

    like for OMEMO and Conversations

  290. jonasw

    precisely the reason why the X-* antipattern was deprecated in the IETF

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  292. daniel

    Just wait for Ge0rG to find out that you can use jingle to port scan your contacts network 😂

  293. daniel

    Or have your contact scan other networks

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  295. daniel

    But we'll just grab the low hanging fruit before we get to the fancy stuff

  296. Ge0rG

    daniel: don't make me change my mind on Jingle Ft!

  297. daniel

    Idk. I vetoed it anyway

  298. daniel

    Not for that particular reason though

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  300. Ge0rG

    daniel: ah, right. outstanding feedback

  301. daniel

    but now i want to write a jingle portscanner. you could even distribute this among your contacts

  302. Holger

    Hehe I was thinking about Jingle exploits as well.

  303. jonasw

    daniel, build a webrtc portscanner. that should be much more impactful :)

  304. Holger

    Or SI/SOCKS5.

  305. Ge0rG

    https://medium.com/hownetworks/how-did-i-turn-my-browser-into-a-port-scanner-tricksy-but-doable-c37db85f9adc

  306. jonasw

    well, SOCKS5 is a proxy protocol. it is meant to be a proxy and open connections, people will probably have put the appropriate security measures on it to prevent abuse

  307. Ge0rG

    Also https://github.com/beefproject/beef/wiki/Module:-Port-Scanner

  308. Ge0rG

    jonasw: probably.

  309. Holger

    jonasw: Wenn but I meant abusing the SOCKS5 client as a proxy in the Ge0rG sense.

  310. jonasw

    oh;

  311. jonasw

    how does one trick a socks5 client into doing that?

  312. Holger

    jonasw: The server could send the client SI/Jingle initiation requests?

  313. jonasw

    I’m probably not familiar how things work here

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  315. Holger

    The nice thing is that the server could do so actively, rather than waiting for the client to request upload slots.

  316. daniel

    Holger, clients might not (auto) accept that though

  317. Holger

    Yes it will probably fail because they only support a different Jingle revision anyway.

  318. daniel

    :-)

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  351. intosi

    Hiding/obfuscation of your nickname on your (re)application is an unhelpful thing.

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  355. Guus

    yet, not new.

  356. intosi

    Not new, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't mention it when it happens, nor that we should consider whether we'd even want that.

  357. Guus

    Wasn't it Steve Jobs who didn't want his car to be identifiiable, and utilizing a legislation loophole where he could drive with a car without a number plate - thus making the car immediately stand out as his, as he was the only one doing that?

  358. intosi

    I'm not intimately familiar with the car collections of tech CEOs.

  359. Guus

    I always considered N********** to be a playful act.

  360. Guus

    https://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/27/mystery-solved-why-steve-jobs-car-never-had-a-license-plate/

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  362. intosi

    Amusing :)

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  381. jonasw

    I don’t even know who that N****+ is

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  383. Ge0rG

    or what?

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  385. Guus

    Go down the occupants list of this room, and you'll figure it out :)

  386. jonasw

    Guus, unless I’m stupid, there’s none whose nickname length macthes

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  389. mathieui

    there’s a letter missing I think

  390. mathieui

    two levels of obfuscation!

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  393. Guus

    I didn't count, but rough comparison will do :)

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  402. Dave Cridland

    French... N***... It's Nÿco, right?

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  410. SaltyBones

    this is discussion is exhausting

  411. SaltyBones

    my brain autocompletes "N****" like "the N word" and this is all very inappropriate

  412. pep.

    Dave Cridland: there's another French N

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  414. mathieui

    I like how nobody wants to invoke Neu stradamus

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  597. Neustradamus

    :D

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  600. Seve

    https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/msg02257.html

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  602. moparisthebest

    Wait Seve you are soul?

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  605. Guus

    yes he is

  606. moparisthebest

    Ah ok was confused, I hate name changes :)

  607. moparisthebest

    That email has the best quote ever

  608. moparisthebest

    In Finland we have a saying for this sort of process: climbing a tree butt-first.

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  616. MattJ

    I went to a Lua meet-up at FOSDEM, and at the end someone asked how the Lua community stayed in touch. "Maybe we should use Telegram?" - I broke down on the spot

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  618. Seve

    moparisthebest, yeah, decided to change my name here. It felt weird to me to say 'I'm SouL' in person at FOSDEM hah

  619. Seve

    I discovered that email because I've been reading all KDE emails regarding their migration from IRC to something else

  620. Neustradamus

    Seve: ah ah

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  622. moparisthebest

    Seve: try saying hi I'm moparisthebest

  623. moparisthebest

    I solve that by just never meeting people in real life lol

  624. mathieui

    I still haven’t come up with a way of saying my nick in english non-awkwardly

  625. moparisthebest

    Also once I had to say lighttpd out loud in person

  626. moparisthebest

    Rough if you hadn't considered it before

  627. moparisthebest

    MattJ: did you chew them a new one lol

  628. SamWhited is always tempted to change his name to abarthisthebest

  629. SamWhited

    or maybe: "acuraisthebestbutonlythensxandoldpreludes"

  630. moparisthebest had to Wikipedia abarth

  631. moparisthebest

    I only like American, no replacement for displacement

  632. Seve

    MattJ, did you tell them: 'Do you know who are you talking with!?' Sad to hear that, though.

  633. SamWhited

    It wasn't a great comparison… I was trying to think of other car companies that had something like mopar, but I think the others named divisions all actually make cars

  634. moparisthebest

    SamWhited: GM is the analogy I always use

  635. moparisthebest

    General Motors

  636. Neustradamus has joined

  637. SamWhited

    Do they have a named division or something like that?

  638. SamWhited

    (what do you even call that?)

  639. moparisthebest

    Like GM is to Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac as Mopar is to Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth

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  641. SamWhited

    GM is just the parent company of those brands though, isn't it? Mopar just sells parts for Fiat and Chryslers and builds the occasional rally car

  642. SamWhited

    GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Jeep or something like that

  643. moparisthebest

    Maybe technically but those cars are just collectivity called mopars

  644. SamWhited

    ah, okay

  645. moparisthebest

    And they share plants and engines and such

  646. moparisthebest

    The big yearly meet drag race and car show is called the Mopar Nationals etc

  647. SamWhited

    GM is to Chevrolet as Fiat is to Mopar then

  648. SamWhited

    This is an important classification to get correct in this chat room, obviously.

  649. moparisthebest

    Haha so abarth and Chrysler/jeep/Dodge are all seemed by Fiat now looks like

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  651. SamWhited

    I think Fiat and Chrysler merged, and Chrysler owned Jeep and maybe Dodge? I can never keep it straight.

  652. moparisthebest

    Well again business wise maybe, but I'd just call them GM vehicles

  653. moparisthebest

    Well it changes yearly I think

  654. SamWhited

    Huh, apparently fiat owns Alfa Romeo too, I didn't realize that

  655. SamWhited

    And Lancia, weird. Wish they'd bring them back.

  656. SamWhited goes down the Wikipedia rabbit hole

  657. moparisthebest

    Let me know when it loops back around to XMPP, good luck

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  659. SamWhited

    We were talking about this at work yesterday actually… wikipedia races where each person starts on a random topic and has to get to a different topic only by clicking links on the page. Shortest path wins.

  660. SamWhited

    Fiat to XMPP would be a good one

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  663. moparisthebest

    That would be fun to program

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