XSF Discussion - 2018-02-20

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  154. Guus If a server would like to be able to let its clients look up a semi-static, web-based resource, do we have a mechanism for that?
  155. Guus XEP-0215?
  156. jonasw I’m not sure
  157. jonasw HTTP over XMPP?
  158. jonasw what are you trying to achieve?
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  160. Seve The MUC participants list?
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  163. Guus I'm trying to let clients figure out the URL for a webrtc conference service that can be used
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  167. jonasw ah
  168. jonasw hm
  169. jonasw no idea :-)
  170. Ge0rG put it into the server's disco#items
  171. flow I think the issue is that we have multiple mechanisms for that
  172. flow but basically a well-known location to lookup, if it's disco#info, xep215 or just a defined IQ
  173. jonasw Ge0rG, for it to be useful in disco#items it needs to reply to disco#info (to discover its identity and features)
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  175. Ge0rG jonasw: right.
  176. flow is an external webrtc based conference really an identity of an XMPP entity?
  177. flow guess it depends on how tightly coupled they are
  178. jonasw flow, no
  179. jonasw but the issue is that the disco#items item has ~no information
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  181. flow jonasw, you mean only crude hacks would allow the URL of the webrtc conference service to be included in disco#info?
  182. jonasw flow, I’m confused
  183. flow yeah, me too
  184. flow so you are actually takling about the item, hmm
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  186. flow ok, sure you need a follow up disco#info on the item, as you already said, then you could possibly put the URL into a form field of the disco#info response
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  188. jonasw the question is, what would be the JID+node of the item?
  189. flow well if you want MUCs to announce a related webrtc conference, then it would be simply the MUCs bare JID I'd say
  190. flow Guus, does that help?
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  200. Guus Sorry, got dragged into a phone call
  201. Guus well, it's not always related to an existing MUC. I'd also like to use this for people to invite each-other into a new 1-on-1 call
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  203. Guus Flow brought up the same alternatives as that I found
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  205. Guus plain discovery doesn't feel quite right. I'd like to prevent running something custom, so that leaves 0215 - my concern there is that it's highly geared towards STUN/TURN - or at least, that's how I've used it.
  206. Guus I'll try to see where 0215 gets me, and work from there.
  207. Guus Thanks guys.
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  210. jonasw \o/
  211. jonasw make sure to report back, so that we can maybe get that Un-Deferred
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  213. Guus I've actually implemented it in Openfire
  214. Guus In some setups, Jitsi is also using it
  215. Guus so, yeah, maybe dusting that off isn't the worst idea
  216. Guus I think Prosody has two modules for it
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  299. Tobias so what do people do against subscription spam?
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  301. Holger One idea is requiring a CAPTCHA ...
  302. Tobias what clients support thatß
  303. Tobias what clients support that?
  304. Guus I've actually not had spam in along time
  305. Guus I did blacklist some domains though
  306. Tobias i get 2-3 spam requests a week or so
  307. Guus I'm also reaching out to server admins from where I see spam, with mixed results.
  308. Guus I've added xep-0157 support in the last release of Openfire, which should gradually start to help with that, in the future
  309. Zash I usually check if source servers have in-band registration enabled and if there's any 157 addrs, then block.
  310. Guus and yeah, I want to do the captch thing too, server-sided, but haven't found the time yet.
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  312. Holger Tobias: Well you'd include an HTTP(S) URL in the <body/> for those clients that don't support it. (But quite a few do I think.)
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  314. Zash captcha-like thing that's just an user-set question with a predefined answer sounded promising, anyone looked into having that serverside?
  315. Guus Zash, there's a XEP for it that appear to cover it pretty well
  316. Zash Oh?
  317. Guus I don't know if I like it's suggestion of tying it in with privacy lists, but at least it's a definition that we can already use, today.
  318. Guus let me find it
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  320. Guus -0159
  321. Zash -xep 159
  322. Bunneh Zash: Spim-Blocking Control (Standards Track, Deferred, 2006-07-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0159.html
  323. Guus it doesn't explicitly tell you to do CAPTCHA, but it does explain how the server-sided blocking process should work, and when it should start spim recognition procedures
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  325. Seve I like user-set questions, but the problem on the other hand maybe providing several questions, one for each language you speak, for instance.
  326. Seve I haven't check the XEP though
  327. Zash -xep pars
  328. Bunneh Zash: Pre-Authenticated Roster Subscription (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-02-16) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0379.html
  329. Ge0rG Zash: can we have automatically maintained JID whitelist for all JIDs that a local user ever sent messages to?
  330. Ge0rG Also I really dislike the word "spim".
  331. Zash seriosuly pointless instant messages
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  333. Guus Ge0rG, 0159 refers to those lists as 'correspondents lists'
  334. Zash Ge0rG: Technically, with MAM, you do.
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  336. Zash `SELECT DISTINCT "with"` pretty much
  337. Ge0rG Zash: are we talking `SELECT DISTINCT with`?
  338. Ge0rG Eww.
  339. Ge0rG That has O(fail) complexity
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  341. Zash Ge0rG: My point is, it can be derived from MAM data already.
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  343. Ge0rG Zash: except for the "ever" part
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  345. Holger Ge0rG: Privacy people won't like you keeping such metadata forever!
  346. Zash Ge0rG: Why tho?
  347. Ge0rG Holger: bloom filters everywhere!
  348. Ge0rG Zash: as a whitelist against incoming spam
  349. Holger Isn't the MAM data is good enough in practice for whitelisting people from anti-spam mechanisms? In case that was the idea.
  350. Ge0rG Holger: maybe, except if you don't use mam
  351. Holger Then you're an unhappy person anyway.
  352. Guus if you haven't talked to someone long enough for them to still be in your mam archive... yeah.
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  355. Holger Ge0rG: I'm still bit undecided on whether to like how we can offer an IM solution with server-side storage being optional vs. hating this fact because we need to solve everything twice, for the MAM and for the non-MAM case.
  356. Zash Can't we be happy with rosters (and directed presence) as whitelist?
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  360. Holger If I bug you with a Prosody question despite you not being on my roster, I'd prefer you not also having to cope with a CAPTCHA because you're probably annoyed by my question anyway.
  361. Zash We have a chatroom for that :)
  362. Holger But I'm a user, I prefer bugging you in private.
  363. Zash Not that I really believe in CAPTCHAs anyways
  364. Holger Yes they're not the proper solution. But a hack that works better than other hacks, in my book.
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  366. Holger I still think the proper solution is SpamAssassin. Auto-classifying traffic based on as many factors as we can get hold of.
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  368. Holger Well the proper solution is ditching capitalism.
  369. Guus does SpamAssassin work for non-email environments?
  370. Holger Guus: No I just meant the concept.
  371. Guus kk
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  373. MattJ Holger, I'm less convinced that will work with IM, since messages are shorter
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  375. MattJ All it takes is spammers to adapt to sending 'Hi' messages, although what they currently send is pretty email-like (whole advert in a self-contained message)
  376. Holger MattJ: But then again we have things email doesn't have, such as the roster, and proper s2s authentication.
  377. Guus There's no one silver bullet here. We'll likely need multiple, partial solutions.
  378. Holger MattJ: The email body is just one of *many* things SpamAssassin looks at.
  379. MattJ That is true, but in any "learning" anti-spam system, it's just going to learn that not being on the roster is a very high indicator of spam
  380. MattJ which is just what we knew already :)
  381. MattJ I can count the number of times I get legitimate out-of-roster messages in a year on the fingers of a single hand
  382. Holger Exactly? I'm just proposing to take all such indicators into account, add them up and divide by 42, look at the resulting score and decide.
  383. MattJ and for a normal user, I'd expect that to be even lower
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  385. Holger So you'd rather not look at other indicators and just block strangers or what?
  386. Holger Single hand per year sounds realistic to me (actually it's a bit more for me I think), and I'd rather not kill that communication off.
  387. MattJ No, I'm just saying I don't think the added complexity is worth it compared to a human figuring out the same factors (and there aren't many)
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  389. Holger I think there are actually quite a few factors a server can look at but a user can't.
  390. Holger Traffic frequency, blacklists, I don't know.
  391. Holger And I believe we could get a good classification rate without having to bother the user. Like we can for email. I might be wrong of course.
  392. Zash Stick all the classifiers we know into a tag on the message?
  393. Zash Wasn't one of the spam XEPs something like that?
  394. Zash -xep spim markers
  395. Bunneh Zash: Multiple matches: Spim Markers and Reports https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/spim.html Spim Markers and Reports https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0287.html
  396. Zash Bunneh: how about you skip the inbox one if it's published?
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  403. Ge0rG Holger: the problem with a server-side classifier is that it needs to delay messages
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  405. Holger Ge0rG: Because?
  406. Ge0rG Holger: to gain sufficient context to identify spam patterns
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  408. Ge0rG Holger: like "(presence followed by message with a link) sent to ten users"
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  410. Holger Well this sounds like just one of many things you could check, to me. If it seems too undesirable, don't do it.
  411. Holger I heard of someone getting good results with simpler mod_firewall rules.
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  416. Ge0rG Holger: mod_firewall can't block presence that comes right before the spam message.
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  504. Zash Holger, Ge0rG: It stops being Instant Messaging if you gotta hold on to stuff for checks before delivering.
  505. Ge0rG Zash: let me tell you about the irony of your response taking over three hours.
  506. Tobias :)
  507. Zash I was out
  508. Ge0rG Zash: with CSI, that presence subscription will be delayed anyway.
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  511. Holger Subscription request should not be delayed.
  512. Ge0rG Still, I'm sure we could delay spammy looking things for like 10 seconds
  513. Ge0rG And that would give us a window of opportunity to detect spammy patterns
  514. Holger But imagine someone says something WRONG and you can't respond IMMEDIATELY.
  515. Zash THE HORROR
  516. Zash That would just violate the entire purpose of the Internet !
  517. Ge0rG I'll violate the purpose of the internet now and go offline.
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  525. Guus Don't overreact guys. There will still be images of cats.
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  535. moparisthebest well then spammers would just wait 11 seconds Ge0rG
  536. moparisthebest it's *always* going to be an arms race
  537. moparisthebest there is no solution, only 'good enough for now'
  538. Zash as long as the incentives and the roi are there
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  551. Holger https://www.eveonline.com/article/p4g5k3/preparing-for-the-future-retirement-of-eve-voice
  552. Kev OK, this was not a channel I expected to see linking to Eve.
  553. Kev That ejabberd?
  554. Holger No idea.
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  594. Holger Ah so I learnt from Neustradamus that this is old stuff. Wasn't aware and the article's date says 2018-02-20 ...
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  597. SaltyBones not convinced
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  599. SaltyBones the forum thread it links to is also recent
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  615. Kev Holger: It's not old stuff, it's newly announced today.
  616. Kev And yes, it's a fork of ejabberd.
  617. Kev Or, at least, CCP have a fork of ejabberd on github.
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  718. Neustradamus Kev: Yes but an upgrade of ejabberd, not a new service, XMPP is used since a long time :)
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  721. Kev Why would CCP lie?
  722. Kev I think some sort of reference is in order here.
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  725. Ge0rG That's something we need to put on our marketing banners either way!
  726. Ge0rG "listen, KDE dudes and dudettes! Eve Online is using xmpp, and you can too!"
  727. Guus as are riot games, right?
  728. Guus League of Legends (or what's it called)?
  729. Ge0rG Guus: yes and yes.
  730. Ge0rG Is there an online gaming imperium running in the matrix?
  731. SamWhited I suspect the KDE peoples use case is significantly different from an online game's chat system, unfortunately
  732. SamWhited Although it's probably still good marketing
  733. daniel Some other game engine (maybe unreal?) also has an xmpp client build in for team chat
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  735. Ge0rG I think the strength is rather in match making, where you need to have a real time connection to many thousands users, and not so much for chats in a small team that's exchanging data all the time anyway
  736. daniel Oh yeah that might by right. Just stumbled over the api docs one days. Never really questioned what exactly they are using it for
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  741. Guus daniel, game-wise, I know that Quake-live used it.
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  745. Guus I'm actually considering parsing the user-input provided in our setup field named 'database URL' to drop [ and ]
  746. Guus The template that we provide is: jdbc:postgresql://[host-name]:5432/[database-name]
  747. Guus we just had someone with problems, connecting to [localhost]
  748. moparisthebest are those valid characters for the database-name part though?
  749. moparisthebest but you could also just change that to HOST-NAME-HERE
  750. Guus I'm guessing that we save more people from their own stupidity than bother those machosists that actually use [ or ] in a database name.
  751. moparisthebest you can change some stuff, but in the end, you can't fix stupid :)
  752. Guus maybe don't ask for the URL, but use explicit fields for hostname and databasename
  753. moparisthebest in my experience that's a bad time, unless you only ever support postgresql or something
  754. moparisthebest because different jdbc drivers take different crazy arguments you can only supply via URL
  755. Guus nah, a couple different ones. but all basically require a host, port and some kind of database identifier. We can change the input field label where needed.
  756. moparisthebest I have to do this for example jdbc:mysql://localhost:3306/rcrdit?user=rcrdit&amp;password=rcrdit&amp;serverTimezone=America/New_York
  757. Guus and the people that want to use a URL, are savvy enough to simply use our XML config instead.
  758. Guus databasename=username=password, nice :)
  759. moparisthebest oracle has a whole thing about using a host:port:instance-or-something vs host:port/service-name
  760. moparisthebest and you can't set those seperately without tying your code exclusively to oracle at compile-time, if you don't just use the URL
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  762. moparisthebest yea as long as you keep a URL an option it should be fine
  763. moparisthebest also on everything matching this is example config :)
  764. moparisthebest my point being had to set the serverTimezone in the URL which is obnoxious
  765. Guus (on a side-note: can't you configure that server-side in mysql - something like: 'these are the default client connection params')
  766. moparisthebest you'd think, the jdbc driver still crashed though, didn't look into it much
  767. Neustradamus https://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=665867 :)
  768. moparisthebest it's probably like charset in mysql where you have to set it all 16 places
  769. Guus yeah, mysql is fun :)
  770. moparisthebest migrating to postgres has been on my todo list awhile now
  771. moparisthebest hard to fix what ain't broke though when other stuff needs fixing :)
  772. Guus I know the feeling all to well
  773. Kev Neustradamus: What's the relevance of that link?
  774. Kev That Eve corps commonly use XMPP servers for pings is common knowledge, and unrelated to Eve chat.
  775. moparisthebest it says "It's an Instant Messaging server for EVE players, with some EVE API integration."
  776. Kev Some player ran an XMPP server and sold access to Eve players.
  777. Kev I'm still missing the relevance.
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  779. moparisthebest ah I see
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  791. Neustradamus https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/chat-service-architecture-servers 2015 here
  792. pep. "and thanking opponents for a good game." haha
  793. pep. I'd be interested to have stats for that, I believe insults are more frequent
  794. Holger Neustradamus: Than one I'm aware of, but Riotgames is unrelated to CPP/Eve, no?
  795. Kev Yes.
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  817. Neustradamus Kev: http://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:408940/FULLTEXT01.pdf maybe better here?
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  865. jjrh If i'm making a online game why on earth would I roll my own chat system when something like XMPP already exists?
  866. jjrh with a long list of deployments serving huge numbers of users :)
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  868. jjrh Did RIOT employees ever write or contribute any XEPs?
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  882. Kev Is that important? If every user of XMPP needs to write a bunch of XEPs, we're probably not doing a great job.
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  897. jjrh no certainly not - just interesting
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  905. stefandxm riotgames .. same as riot entertainment? :D
  906. stefandxm "I survived riot entertainment" :o
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