moparisthebestWhat's that sasl mode that proves the server knows your password?
moparisthebestI recall Zash talking about it, like it'd be safe to use with a self signed cert type thing
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SamWhitedmoparisthebest: scram is one
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Ge0rGhttps://signal.org/blog/signal-foundation/ wow! It's impressive what they've achieved with 2.3 developers, and now they are drowning in money.
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ZashGe0rG: Weren't they already drowning in money?
Ge0rGZash: they just got 50M USD on top.
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marmistrz> by Brian Acton, the co-founder of WhatsApp
marmistrzam I the only one to whom it's suspicous? :)
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Ge0rGmarmistrz: he sold it to facebook and made gazillions on it?
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Ge0rG> sell software for distribution Jaber and base 450000 jabber - ready business for you is$500
a real bargain!
jonaswI don’t even get it
marcGe0rG: ?
ZashEnglish is hard
Ge0rGJust got another incoming XMPP spam flood
jonaswI think he’s getting spimmed
Ge0rGsomebody is selling a jabber spam bot plus a JID database for 500 usd.
marcOh 😮
SeveA real bargain!
marmistrzGe0rG: I know they sold it to fb, what I mean that "if it's shaped in the same way whatsapp was shaped"
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marmistrzI mean, I'm not using signal (phone number as an ID is a bad idea), but if it's backed by the whatsapp founder, I'd have at least a little more suspicion before ever thinking to use it, judging from the way whatsapp has evolved
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jonaswmarmistrz, maybe the whatsapp founder feels bad for what happened :)
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marmistrzjonasw, by supporting another walled garden?
jonaswobviously he’s not opposed to walled gardens
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marmistrzwell, if someone donated 5% of what he did for XMPP client development...
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GuusThere are times that I wonder if our some on our support forums are high on something: "Smack Bubble in Rainbow"
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Guus(A service provided by openrainbow.com is apparently XMPP based?)
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Ge0rGmarmistrz: there was a time when I respected moxie for what he does. Back then I'd have said that moxie will keep an eye on that money.
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intosiGeneral service announcement: systemd sucks.</rant>
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MattJOld news
intosiI know.
Ge0rGXMPP sucks, too.
ZashEverything sucks.
intosiNo, no, you're wrong there.
intosiMy vacuum cleaner doesn't anymore.
jonaswwell played
KevMine either, actually, its battery doesn't last a full round of the floor it's on :(
Ge0rGKev: should've bought a Tesla then :P
KevI call it Gir.
ZashThat's it! What we really need is Internet-connected battery-powered IoT vacuum cleaners that collects dust into a blockchain!
Ge0rGZash: into a quantum blockchain!
ZashAnd battery charging as a service!
intosi3) profit!
Ge0rGZash: and huge batteries, because PoW performance
GuusKev: your floor is to large.
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KevVery much not!
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Guusyour vacuum cleaner disagrees.
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KevMy vacuum cleaner is senile, it used to be fine with it.
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GuusHmm... Sure your floor didn't grow?
KevModerately.
GuusI concede.
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Ge0rGNever underestimate continental drift!
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GuusI unconcede. What he said!
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pep.Can somebody add me into memberbot's roster? I sent a subscription presence yesterday
jonaswpep., ping Alex
pep.What he said ^
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marcGe0rG, are you going to change your langing page such that it accepts xmpp URIs?
Ge0rGmarc: are you going to look up how to do a string replace in Erlang?
marcGe0rG, yeah, if you tell me the reason for _not_ using the xmpp URI ;)
Ge0rGmarc: every character counts. more characters = longer QR codes = less readabiliy = higher chance for typos when entering manually
Ge0rGmarc: the "xmpp:" is really redundant there.
Ge0rGmarc: besides, you need to url-encode the JID anyway, so you won't get around custom processing.
Ge0rGmarc: and you could just make the default prefix "xmpp:" for when constructing the link
marcGe0rG, that's not a good reason for _not_ accepting it ;)
Ge0rGmarc: yes it is. I'm forcing you to do something that's good for your users.
marc...
marcsounds like I need to fork :D
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Ge0rGmarc: or you need to bury your ego and just listen to what my ego says is the right thing™ 😛
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marcGe0rG, not sure if this is gonna happen for this thing ;)
jonaswmarc, FWIW, I think Ge0rG has a point here.
marcjonasw, 5 chars?
marcare you going to ban too long local parts of a JID too? :D
marcor too long domain names?
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Ge0rGmarc: now guess why I own yax.im
marcGe0rG, because it's a funny name?
marcprobably I'll append the OMEMO keys to the QR code
marcWe generate QR codes for a XMPP URI and 5 OMEMO keys at the moment
marcWorks fine
Ge0rGmarc: to the xmpp URI or to the location URL?
marcGe0rG, to the xmpp URI
marcdoesn't make sense to transfer OMEMO keys via an "insecure" channel
Ge0rGmarc: not much probably.
marcit's for the QR code only
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Ge0rGmarc: I mean obviously it does make sense to transmit them but not to trust them.
Ge0rGjust check for MitM
marcGe0rG, nitpicker ;)
Ge0rGmarc: professional pessimist^W security analyst :P
marcGe0rG, if we put the URI into the fragment part we don't need to URL encode it AFAIK
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Ge0rGmarc: except when we do.
marcGe0rG, hm?
Ge0rGmarc: as I mentioned some days ago, have a look at typical irc Transport JIDs
marcGe0rG, wtf should I care about IRC transport URIs for invitation?
Ge0rGmarc: "#" is a valid local part character
marcGe0rG, "'#" can be used as username?
Zash-nodeprep #hello
BunnehZash: #hello
jonaswyeah
Ge0rGreally needs to change name into Cassandra.
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marcGe0rG, but URL encoding is the wrong thing here, we don't need to escape all characters as not URL encoders do
marc...as normal..
Ge0rGmarc: good luck figuring out the right subset. Also don't forget to tell me!
marcGe0rG, if you would _really_ care about the chars you would spend your time to figure it out ;)
Ge0rGmarc: I'm here to point out the problems, not the solutions!
Guuswait, I thought you were here because you were our mascot?
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Ge0rGGuus: what? I'm way too sexy for that! 😁
SeveA sexy mascot is what we need so..
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Guusw00t! just had my first in-client video conference :)
Guusit's still very rough around the edges, but still, I'm excited :)
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SeveGreat Guus :D
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Ge0rGGuus: we are only a decade behind?
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Guusstop raining on my parade!
GuusI've created a beautiful freak!
Guusoutdated, yes. incomplete, yes.
Ge0rGGuus: oh, your own client. Good work, then! :)
Ge0rGTime to catch up!
Guusdoes the happydance
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marcGuus: Video conference via XMPP/Jingle?
marcGe0rG, After a walk in the sunshine I'm convinced now ;)
Ge0rGmarc: :)
Guusmarc, yes (although we're cheating by embedding jitsi-meet in a browser component)
marcGuus, is this some closed-source component?
TobiasGuus, but doing jingle xmpp protocol?
GuusJitsi Meet is open source, a webrtc-based solution that uses XMPP (COIN/Colibri/Jingle) for negotiation.
Guuswe've server-sided wrapped that solution in a very-easy-to-install plugin
Guusclients will detect its presence, and use it isntead of the public instance
Guusfrom there, it's a matter of opening the correct URL, and let Jitsi do the rest.
HolgerWhat's COIN?
GuusAdded bonus is that users of our client can invite anyone that has a browser.
marcGuus, so you had a video conference between browsers running jitsi meet?
Guushttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0298.html
Guusmarc, yes.
HolgerGuus: Ah, thanks.
marcGuus, with n > 2?
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Guusyes. not unlike google talk
Guuserr
Guushangouts
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GuusI can try posting an invite here, if you want
Guus(beware, alpha-quality software release)
GuusPlease join me in this web-based video-conference room: https://meet.jit.si/xsf
marcGuus, masked camera here ;)
marcBut I can see you :D
GuusI am nice to look at :D
marcNice
marcWorks fine
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Guusyeah, one-on-one is peer-to-peer
marcMaybe somebody else can join to test with n > 2? :)
Guusbeyond that, a bridge kicks in
marcwhere is that bridge hosted?
GuusI've added a uuid to make the room name somewhat more unique, but neglected doing that in a muc context
Guusit's part of the Jitsi setup. We're now using their public service, but that is also deployable as an Openfire plugin
marcNice, now we need this in some desktop / moible client :)
Guus(or a standalone installation if you go with their setup)
Guusthey do have a mobile client
marcokay, now we need this in other mobile clients :D
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Guusthey have an API that potentially is usable for that
Guusnot my area of expertise though
SamWhitedJitsi doesn't like my home network for some reason, that's new.
GuusI popped out for a second
Guusstill, you should've been able to join that Meet.
Guus... you know that, having worked at their stuff :)
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SamWhitedone would think, but I've already forgotten most of how it works.
SamWhitedYou're the expert, fix it Guus!
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Guusif you're trying to use their public service, it should pretty much work out of the box, if you're not blocking outbound traffic and have a relatively sane NAT setup.
Guusother than that, Damian is a hero :)
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SamWhitedIndeed
SamWhitedI'll dig in later, catching the bus now. My network hasn't changed to my knowledge, so maybe it just needs a kick
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Ge0rGis just "participating" in a Lync conference call. The audio works for the first second, and then there is silence.
MarandaNice
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Ge0rGI wonder when my coworkers will figure it out.
Ge0rGI'm only 19mins and two reboots in.
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MarandaWasn't Lync one of those dismissed things by Microsoft btw?
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Maranda(it should be "Skype for Bussness" now)
Ge0rGMaranda: it's not dismissed, just renamed.
Maranda🤣
MarandaTouche
Ge0rGThird reboot, same result.
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MarandaKeep going, try with a kick or two since you're at it 🤣
ralphmSo I don't see many changes from last time around. Did we progress on any of the items in our Trello, and discuss it?
MattJI think we skipped last week because of lack of people, and I don't remember the week before that
Guuswe skipped the week before too
Guusno progress that I am aware of, although one new item was added
Guusthe comm-wt card
ralphmOk
Ge0rGAnd I forgot to write to an ML regarding a SPAM SIG :(
ralphmOk, let's start with these then
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ralphm1. Communications Team
Guusif desirable, we can do a post-mortem on the summit/fosdem too
ralphm(ok)
ralphmI'm with Kev on this, that we don't really need this to be formalized
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ralphm(at the moment)
ralphmI'd rather just first see some stuff happening, without the yak shaving
GuusI think it helps to get stuff under way
ralphmHow?
Guusby defining that team members get access to things they want to use to produce stuff.
ralphmI strongly believe we should get away from needing some kind of formal structure to be able to do things.
MattJI'm hearing that, combined with "we need to restrict access to XSF resources"
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Ge0rGyou might want to approve the persons named for comm-wt access to github, before they go away in disdain.
Guuswell, getting access to resources are a pain. I've done that plenty of times recently, and it was always painful and took way to long for comfort.
ralphmGe0rG: wait what?
Guusi'm not seeing harm in us formaly defining the team again, and defining that its members get read/write access to our website and social media accounts.
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MattJSame here
Ge0rGralphm: referring to JC's last email on that thread.
MattJI agree this shouldn't be so painful, but it appears to me that (re)formation of the team seems the least painful way for everyone involved
Guus(also, the overhead of us doing this is minor)
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ralphmBut since this is GitHub, why can't we start with pull requests (that don't require any additional permissions) and move from that? I think that's the point Kev tried to make. I'm not opposed to restart a formal team, but I don't see it being on the critical path.
Ge0rGralphm: the deployment cycle via PRs and editor bugging is long and frustrating
Guusralphm: because it's keeping the team-members dependent of others, and thus less effective. Also, I really don't see the harm in not giving them access.
Guuswhy not facilitate them if it benefits us all?
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Guusas I said, most of the work for board on this is this debate. After that, it's asking iteam to add some permissions to existing resources.
Guuswhich I assume will take them about five minutes to implement
intosiiteam can do that, words need only be said.
ralphmOk, so let me get this straight. The deployment cycle of the site itself is cumbersome and would require an Editor to approve?
intosiIt does not.
Guusno, it now requires <unnamed entity> (usually me) to approve.
intosiIt requires someone with commit permissions on the website repo to merge the PR.
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MattJWhich is currently (iteam + editors)?
Guusno, it's undefined, as far as I know
Ge0rGwouldn't that be another reason to name it "comm-team"?
Guus(defining that comm-team gets access would be another nice side-eff... what he said)
GuusWhat would be arguments for _not_ doing this?
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ralphmWell, it is just a bit of work to get going.
ralphmYou need a charter, a chair and Members (only).
GuusI believe that's neglible.
Guusthe charter has been proposed, as has the chair and member list
Guus(on list, and in @commsteam)
Guus@commteam, not @commsteam
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MattJI'm also inclined towards "let's just do it"
ralphmOk. I didn't see the chair mentioned. I have no strong objections to having a formal team with only those Members having those accesses for publishing at xmpp.org
Guusthe chair was mentioned in the MUC only (being JC)
ralphmAha
Guusit'd also be good if that team can use our social media accounts (which currently is limited to Twitter, I think?)
Ge0rGIt would be great to mention all the many XMPP-deploying projects on @XMPP
ralphmSo the proposal is as the e-mail with JC as chair.
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ralphmThe only objection I have is Simon not (currently) being a Member.
ralphmAFIAK
Guusah, good catch.
Guusbylaws do say: "Participation in Teams shall be limited to elected Members of the Corporation."
ralphmIndeed that was my point
ralphmSo assuming Guus is motioning this with the exception of Simon, I'm +1
Guushe's not listed as a member, nor do find an application for him
GuusOk, I'm motioning.
ralphmFor the record:
Daniel Wisnewski (Daniel_W)
Jan-Carel Brand (jcbrand) as Chair
Nicolas Vérité (Nyco)
Severino Ferrer de la Peñita (Seve or SouL)
Charter: The team's mission is to inform the XMPP community and interested parties on news and recent developments within XMPP ecosystem.
MattJSo he can still submit PRs/etc. but a member will need to approve
MattJStill an acceptable situation if you ask me
ralphmRight
Guusagreed
ralphmI left off the second part of the charter as it seems superfluous and not alligned with the bylaws w.r.t. openness of the team itself. Of course others are still free to contribute through the Team.
ralphmaligned even
Guusagreed (as was agreed on in the mail htread)
ralphmYeah, just repeating here for the record
GuusI'm +1 to the formation of the WT, the chair and member list, and the charter.
ralphm+1 (again)
MattJ+1
ralphmYay
Guusalso, I motion that we grant read/write permission to the source code repository that holds the XMPP.org website code to all members of the Communications work team - which should reflect future team changes.
ralphmThe motion carries.
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ralphmGuus: I don't think we need to formalize that per se. But I'm sure Kev and intosi can make sure of the necessary technical requirements for the Team to carry out their task.
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GuusI'd simply like to avoid a situation where everyone looks at eachother and wonders who is allowed access, by making this explicit.
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intosiIs there a list of github user ids for the members of the comms team?
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Guusintosi: I'll ask them to provide that
intosiTa.
ralphmI'm sure there will be other things that access is required for and I'm not sure if asking Board every time is needed. If iteam would give out too many creds, that'd be the day.
intosiSure. Comms team can just ask iteam.
GuusI was going to follow up with one more similar motion, for social media accounts :)
MattJGe0rG, haven't we discussed the spam team 50 times already?
ralphmWe actually rejected it because there wasn't a feeling of needing a team of SIG for doing things around that topic.
Ge0rGMattJ: with the Spam Fighting Manifesto, there is some traction in the open to improve default server configs, write modules to block domains etc.
ralphmGreat.
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Ge0rGbut that said Manifesto is made by a single volunteer who lacks time to incorporate feedback from server admins already.
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MattJGithub repo and get people to submit PRs - if unable to merge PRs, find the people that you imagine in the SIG and grant them access to merge the PRs
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intosiAn impromptu SIGish, if you like.
Ge0rGI had hoped for something more official than my private github account, but okay.
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ralphmwhy?
ralphmPlease, and I have asked this before, why can't you do any of this without 'something more official'?
ralphmI don't understand this at all.
Ge0rGI'm doing it already, as far as my time permits. Sorry for bothering you.
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intosicomm team effective immediately, with the list JC mailed?
intosiI note that Winfried replied that he wanted to be on it as well.
Ge0rGintosi: without Simon AFAIU
ralphmGe0rG: it is not about bothering. It is about not feeling for doing a lot of bureaucracy just because.
Ge0rGralphm: ah, I see
Guusintosi, in my understanding, Winfried was in, Simon out.
jonaswcouldn’t we put the anti spam manifesto under the xsf account?
ralphmintosi: yes. I think Winfried already has permissions, by the way, and I wasn't sure if was actually applying for the team or merely contributing.
Guusintosi, scratch that
Guuswe didn't include Winfried when voting (I overlooked that)
ralphmjonasw: why?
jonaswralphm, dunno, if georg is unhappy with having that under his account
ralphmThe TLS manifesto was also not an XSF activity and worked out fine
jonaswI’m just throwing ideas in the room
MattJjonasw, as I understand it some people are opposed to the manifesto. It's just going to cause way more debate and just be counter-productive when it's totally unnecessary in the first place
jonaswyeah, true
ralphmand what MattJ said applied to that manifesto, too
MattJRight
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intosiI have added JC as maintainer of the comm team group
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MattJI'm not opposed to the manifesto, and Ge0rG, if you need help, I and others would be more than willing I'm sure
intosiInvited Nÿco, kept Winfried in it for now, and require two more github user names, for SouL and for Daniel_W.
MattJThanks intosi
GuusSeveFP <-- Soul's github
intosiGuus: ta
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Ge0rGMattJ: thanks for your offer!
winfriedIn is ok for me (I am in a meeting, can't communicate all the time)
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intosiI suggest that the comm teams adds its own page to the website, and optionally fixes its own wiki page :)
Guusit's nice how we keep having the same conversation in two different MUCs :)
GuusI just proposed that (sans the wiki, but that's a good idea)
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intosiDon't know in which muc that happened, but I'm not in it :)
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Guuscommteam@muc.xmpp.org
intosiAh, not something I'd want to be in on a permanent basis currently :)
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Guusyou not being in it made it more impressive
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intosiGreat minds, fools, there was something with a comparison there.
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marcGe0rG, fixed my ejabberd implementation but your landing page doesn't work on "firefox klar"
marcGe0rG, no button is clickable
marcGe0rG, can you verify and at least add an issue please
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marcworks fine on firefox (desktop version)
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waqasmarc: Is that different than Firefox Focus?
marcwaqas, it seems, I don't know if they use a different engine, probably not
marcmaybe some javascript issue but at least some javascript code works
marcthe xmpp URI is correct etc.
marcwaqas, oh, thought you're asking about "normal" firefox
waqashttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.focus&hl=en and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.mozilla.klar&hl=en look practically the same, both were updated on February 5, and only Focus is listed on the Mozilla page: https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Mozilla&hl=en
marcwaqas, does it work for "firefox focus"?
waqasI was asking what Klar was, as I've only heard of Focus
marcwaqas, AFAIK it's just the german version of firefox focus
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waqasAh, right you are: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/difference-between-firefox-focus-and-firefox-klar