XSF Discussion - 2018-02-23


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  172. jonasw

    fun

  173. jonasw

    always reassuring when software foundations partner with media

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  338. Ge0rG

    https://medium.com/processone/eve-online-chat-is-moving-to-ejabberd-8e73d40fa887

  339. Guus

    Nice - I thought they already were.

  340. jonasw

    cool

  341. jonasw tips hat to the ejabberd folks

  342. jonasw

    well done :)

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  344. Ge0rG

    This is something that should be promoted via our social media team.

  345. Zash

    COMM team, assemble!

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  347. jonasw

    indeed

  348. Seve

    We were already on it :)

  349. Kev

    Ge0rG: More information on this is coming next week. I've been in touch with the devs and generally offered to be helpful if I can be.

  350. jonasw

    \o/

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  352. Ge0rG

    Kev: that's great. We still should promote it now. We could also offer them a place on our own blog instead of medium?

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  354. Guus

    Ge0rG, why are you not on the comm wt?

  355. Kev

    Presumably we'd promote the source article (linked here the other day), rather than the P1 repost.

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  357. jonasw

    I didn’t click the source article, somehow I thought from the URL that they were moving away from XMPP and I wanted to avoid making myself sad

  358. Ge0rG

    Kev: what's wrong with promoting both?

  359. Kev

    Nope. Never used XMPP before, now they are going to. Which is cool.

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  361. Zash

    Hm, wasn't some large-ish game already using xmpp for chat?

  362. jonasw

    roit?

  363. jonasw

    leage of legends?

  364. Ge0rG

    Zash: Riot Games

  365. Zash

    Ah, so it was another 3 letter acronym

  366. jonasw

    lol (pun intended)

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  369. Ge0rG

    So who's responsible for @xmpp on twitter?

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  371. Kev

    Board, ultimately.

  372. Kev

    But I imagine they'll delegate to the commteam now.

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  374. Ge0rG

    I'd really like to get the two articles twittered about. Something like "Congratulations to EVE Online for joining the robust and scalable XMPP ecosystem! <link1> <link2>"

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  386. marc

    jonasw, I can push a change for xep401 to use namespaces for the nodes, shall I?

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  389. marc

    Ge0rG, can you think of a way how we can properly manage interoperability between XEP-0158 and XEP-0401?

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  391. marc

    Just using both fields in the IBR form would be my proposal :D

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  400. Ge0rG

    marc: aren't there ibr captchas already?

  401. Ge0rG

    That would be an argument pro data forms indeed.

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  403. marc

    Ge0rG, XEP-0158 is IBR captcha

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  405. marc

    Ge0rG, yes, it would be "easy" to combine both

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  408. Ge0rG

    the _right_ thing would probably be to integrate the captcha into the form sent back when you attempt to make an invitation

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  410. marc

    Ge0rG, good point

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  413. marc

    Ge0rG, can you post that on the ML?

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  418. Ge0rG

    marc: no. It will end up in pointless debate about how to make the onboarding harder.

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  420. Ge0rG

    marc: I don't have captchas on my server and I'm perfectly able to kill off spam accounts.

  421. marc

    Ge0rG, okay, so you don't like the CAPTCHA idea?

  422. Ge0rG

    captchas are a pointless insult to your users.

  423. Ge0rG

    I could live with captchas to external users sending me spam, but only as a workaround for the inability to delay stanzas in mod_firewall

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  425. marc

    Ge0rG, okay, actually I don't care about botnets and spam because I run a private service - you and the other XSF guys should know what's best

  426. Ge0rG

    marc: "the other XSF guys" might disagree with me, but I don't care.

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  428. marc

    Ge0rG, doesn't sound like we can make fast progress with this XEP ;)

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  435. Ge0rG

    marc: the main question that remains for me is: data forms or ad-hoc ibr extension?

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  437. Ge0rG

    So far, only Jonas reacted to my rationale

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  439. Ge0rG

    I wish for some more feedback from the council members that raised concerns with ad-hoc ibr

  440. marc

    Ge0rG, okay, to me it looks like data forms are the best solution but I don't have much experience with the XMPP internals

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  442. marc

    And I thought the IBR data forms are exactly for such extensions

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  445. Ge0rG

    marc: data forms are well suited to ask the user questions

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  447. marc

    Ge0rG, actually I don't get why you're against data forms

  448. Ge0rG

    Less so to mix hidden and visible fields

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  456. marc

    Ge0rG, okay, I'll stop working on the implementation until I get some feedback from @standards how we proceed

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  460. marc

    Unfortunately, from next month on I won't have that much time

  461. Ge0rG

    marc: I wonder how big the needed changes are afterwards

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  464. marc

    Ge0rG: depends on how the general feedback is

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  466. marc

    There is no feedback at all except from Jonas and you

  467. Ge0rG

    marc: I mean to switch between ibr and data forms

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  472. marc

    Ge0rG: not that big... I already changed it ;)

  473. Ge0rG

    marc: then you can just go on implementing everything else

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  479. Zash

    {jabber🇮🇶register}token?

  480. Zash

    argh

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  482. Ge0rG

    🤣

  483. jonasw

    marc: yes for the node name change

  484. Ge0rG

    Zash: I've put an updated version of the plugin online

  485. Zash

    Inventing new elements in an existing namespace seems weird to me

  486. Zash

    "online"

  487. Ge0rG

    Zash: same URL

  488. Zash

    Ge0rG: Where did you publish this?

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  492. Ge0rG

    Zash: just search in your history for the random pastebin id

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  494. Zash

    \o/

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  498. marc

    jonasw: okay

  499. Guus

    but yeah, first order of business is to make sure that the certificates that are used actually cover the server host name

  500. Guus

    (which is why I got started working on certs in Openfire in the first place)

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  502. Guus

    I'm thinking that you locally have both a proper certificate, and match your xmpp domain name to your server FQDN.

  503. Guus

    that saves you some trouble :)

  504. Guus

    hey, what?

  505. Guus

    hargh, my tabs changed :)

  506. Guus

    disregard my last text :)

  507. Ge0rG

    Certificate verification is an arcane witchcraft. Don't get into it if you want to prevent embarrassing vulnerabilities

  508. Ge0rG

    Speaking from experience

  509. Zash

    It is known

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  527. marc

    jonasw, on top of my pending change?

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  550. Ge0rG

    Zash: https://op-co.de/tmp/emoji_ascii.py (returned to a PC now)

  551. Zash

    Thanks

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  553. Ge0rG

    (same URL as always, I was just mocking you for putting everything into ungreppable pastebins; sorry)

  554. jonasw

    marc, better not

  555. jonasw

    marc, Ge0rG seems to not like that change :)

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  557. Ge0rG

    marc: your PR contained both the error fixes and a change from adhoc-IBR to data-forms, right?

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  560. marc

    Ge0rG: yes

  561. marc

    jonasw: how to handle the version number then?

  562. jonasw

    marc, don’t, that’s the editors job in case of doubt

  563. marc

    jonasw: also no description?

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  567. jonasw

    marc, make descriptive commit message s:)

  568. j.r has joined

  569. marc

    jonasw: okay

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  584. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I don't like one of the two changes that were part of the same commit

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  586. jonasw

    Ge0rG, true

  587. Ge0rG

    jonasw: but please don't get me started about commit chains depending on dead ends

  588. Ge0rG

    jonasw: irregardless of what I like, I will bow to Council's decision

  589. jonasw

    what is councils decision on this experimental xep?

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  591. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it was accepted as experimental with some IBR data-forms sentiment

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  594. Maranda

    About games using xmpp for chat, Perfect World Entertainment/Cryptic Studios use XMPP for their out of game to in-game chat interface from like 2011

  595. Maranda

    (e.g. Star Trek Online)

  596. Maranda

    (Neverwinter)

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  598. vanitasvitae

    I like the fact, that a Star Trek game is using XMPP given the fact, that all species in the star trek universe can call each others ships without any issues

  599. Ge0rG

    Kev: so who is _technically able_ to post on @xmpp twitter?

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  601. Zash

    I remember mention of Twitter account setup such that people could be given access easily. How did that go?

  602. Ge0rG

    Guus: I didn't volunteer because I plainly lack the time

  603. Guus

    As nicely illustrated by answering after 2 1/2 hours

  604. Ge0rG

    Guus: sorry :(

  605. Guus

    no worries :)

  606. Ge0rG

    Guus: do you know who can twitter out things?

  607. Ge0rG

    Ah, there it was already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16445365

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  625. marc

    jonasw, done in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/592

  626. marc

    Oh damn, I should adapt the examples :D

  627. jonasw

    yeah

  628. jonasw

    do that :)

  629. andy has left

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  631. marc

    okay, done

  632. jonasw

    lgtm

  633. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I can’t seem to find councils statemetn on easy user onboarding

  634. xnyhps has joined

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  637. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I wish council minutes were better greppable.

  638. Yagiza has left

  639. Ge0rG

    Can't we have links to the council MUC from the XEP history? :D

  640. jonasw

    hah

  641. Ge0rG

    jonasw: Dave's comment is in the lines after http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2018-01-17#16:06:45

  642. andy has left

  643. Ge0rG

    jonasw: Kev commented on-list: > Not blocking this (+1), but the addition of fields into IBR seems wrong - don’t we have xep4 in IBR for this reason?

  644. jonasw

    ok

  645. jonasw

    so I should be merging the PR against 401 and you delayed that for no reason? ;-)

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  647. Ge0rG

    https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-January/034152.html is the link

  648. Yagiza has left

  649. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes. I'm an asshole :P

  650. jonasw

    m(

  651. jonasw

    I know, zinid said that

  652. Ge0rG

    jonasw: seriously though, I provided my rationale for adding fields into IBR on-list, and I hoped that Dave and Kev would comment on that.

  653. jonasw

    Ge0rG, well, okay. so should we be waiting longer?

  654. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes please.

  655. jonasw

    gaaah just say that! :P

  656. jonasw

    you wasted a minute of my time :P

  657. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I what? Why?

  658. jonasw

    because of thinking on whether or not to merge this now and hunting references and so on :P

  659. Yagiza has joined

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  661. Ge0rG

    jonasw: maybe data-forms have an advantage for server developers, where a single hook API can be exposed for all registration-related things. I don't know.

  662. Ge0rG

    All I know is how it's the easiest for a client.

  663. Alex has left

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  665. jonasw

    I find it useful to have extensibility here

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  667. Ge0rG

    Do we have something for hidden fields in data forms?

  668. jonasw

    type hidden?

  669. jonasw

    like FORM_TYPE is?

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  677. Ge0rG

    https://www.quora.com/What-technology-does-the-iOS-Apple-Push-Notification-Service-APNS-use-to-maintain-a-persistent-connection-with-each-device-to-receive-such-fast-push-notifications

  678. Ge0rG

    jonasw: like field type hidden, but to be filled out by the client

  679. jonasw

    Ge0rG, > hidden The field is not shown to the form-submitting entity, but instead is returned with the form. The form-submitting entity SHOULD NOT modify the value of a hidden field, but MAY do so if such behavior is defined for the "using protocol".

  680. Dave Cridland has left

  681. jonasw

    so exactly like field type hidden?

  682. Dave Cridland has left

  683. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I was just going to post that quote, yes!

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  708. SaltyBones

    so, just in case you don't have it on your radar yet

  709. SaltyBones

    GDPR will be in effect from may on

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  711. SaltyBones

    GDPR will be in effect from May on

  712. jonasw

    I still have no idea what that means.

  713. SaltyBones

    I just attended a talk about it and tried to pull out of the guys nose what I have to do.

  714. SaltyBones

    And the answer is definitely not nothing.

  715. jonasw

    what is the answer then?

  716. SaltyBones

    In fact it is apparently so far away from nothing that it can only be described as "it's complicated" and he pretty much suggested that I shut down.

  717. Yagiza has left

  718. jonasw

    "you"?

  719. SaltyBones

    Well, to not complicate things I only told him that I am running an e-mail server for family and friends...

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  721. SaltyBones

    And apparently that means you actually have to do a bunch of things that somehow magically conform to the legalese of risk analysis and all the other umpteen steps I just heard about...

  722. SaltyBones

    I think nobody knows what it will mean in practice yet. The documents are complex and contain the usual, excessive amount of weaselwords.

  723. jonasw

    can someone not affected sue me?

  724. jonasw

    if not, I don’t care.

  725. suzyo has joined

  726. SaltyBones

    I have no clue. He at some point seemed to answer this question with yes and later with no. :p

  727. Yagiza has joined

  728. SaltyBones

    I just wanted to mention it.

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  730. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: I'm a professional GDPR consultant. I can support you at only 175€/hr.

  731. Zash

    Is "Self-host in your own home" still the best way to avoid all legalities?

  732. SaltyBones

    Ask Ge0rG! :D

  733. daniel has left

  734. Ge0rG

    Zash: no. "Do not store other people's data" is the best way.

  735. Zash

    Good thing we made MAM mandatory!

  736. Ge0rG

    Zash: you might understand now why I insist on https://prosody.im/issues/867 so much.

  737. Zash

    Ge0rG: I'd probably go with disabling it entirely until explicitly enabled via prefs if I were me

  738. Ge0rG

    Zash: are you you?

  739. Zash

    Not sure

  740. Ge0rG

    I'm sure I'm not you.

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  804. Zash

    Uh, this doesn't look right: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0158.html#registrar-formtypes-register

  805. Zash

    Is that the same as the captcha from above it?

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