XSF Discussion - 2018-02-26

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  268. Yagiza Hello!
  269. Yagiza Is there author of XEP-0363 around?
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  272. Guus it'd be helpful if you tell us who that is :)
  273. Guus oh, HTTP File Upload
  274. Guus that's Daniel Gultsch
  275. Guus (His JID is in the XEP, in case you're having trouble reaching him)
  276. Guus he's usually very responsive.
  277. daniel Yes
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  284. Yagiza daniel, I'd like to discuss it
  285. Guus has left
  286. Yagiza Guus, I guess, discussing XEPs in the MUC is better than privately
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  289. Yagiza daniel, I don't know if this was already discussed, but I believe the XEP is missing file hash support.
  290. Yagiza daniel, how do you feel about adding it?
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  294. daniel Yagiza: who should add and who should check the hash?
  295. Yagiza daniel, client should add and server should check
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  298. Yagiza The idea is providing file hash in <request/> element instead of or along with file name.
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  300. Yagiza A server must check the hash. If it already has file with provided hash, it must reply with <slot/> without <put/> element. Instead, it must contain <exist/> element.
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  303. Yagiza Once client received such reply it must consider that file was already uploaded to the server before and should use URL provided in <get/> element to access the file.
  304. daniel So this is about dedup and not integrity?
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  308. Yagiza daniel, we may neglect this possibility, like we do it with Avatars, Entity Caps and so on.
  309. Yagiza daniel, even bitcoin neglects possibility of duplicated wallet address. It just generates random hash. Probability of uploading two different files with the same SHA-1 (or SHA-256) on the server is about zero. So, I don't see any problem here.
  310. Yagiza daniel, but we get rid of unnecessary uploads, which is very useful.
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  312. daniel Yagiza: I'm gonna keep this in mind in case I'm going to work on the XEP again
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  315. Yagiza daniel, ok
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  317. Yagiza daniel, if you have no time for that, I can try to make a PR or some other way send updates for the XEP if you like.
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  320. marc Keep in mind that this extension may leak "sensitve" information
  321. SaltyBones Yagiza, if you dedup across users make sure to consider the privacy implications.
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  323. marc SaltyBones: what I said :)
  324. Holger Ah I thought this was only about your own uploads. And didn't get the point.
  325. Holger Yes you don't want to dedup across users.
  326. SaltyBones marc, I know, just wanted to be explicit. ;)
  327. Kev It looks like a nice way to check if a service has certain files uploaded, yes.
  328. Yagiza SaltyBones, marc, what do you mean? Someone knowing file hash may and knowing a server where it is may get access to the file?
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  331. marc Yagiza: One would be able to automatically check if a file was shared on the server
  332. Holger Yagiza: What's your use case in practice? You and me uploading the same cat pic?
  333. Yagiza Holger, not only.
  334. daniel Also dog pics
  335. Holger Ah.
  336. Yagiza Holger, 1st use case: I've uploaded a pic, to embed it into my message with HXTML-IM.
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  338. Yagiza Holger, then I try o send a message with the same pic to another contact.
  339. Kev In that case you already know the URI and can re-use it?
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  342. Yagiza Kev, I must cache those URLs somewhere.
  343. goffi Kev: only if you are on the same device.
  344. Yagiza Kev, but why client must do such stupid things, if a server can?
  345. goffi (and client)
  346. Yagiza goffi, yes
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  349. Yagiza Holger, another use case:
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  351. marc Yagiza: you could restric it for own file uploads but it would not work with OMEMO without leaking information I think
  352. Holger So the first use case doesn't cross user boundaries. Sounds like a corner case to me though. Not sure you want a protocol extension for optimizing a corner case.
  353. Yagiza marc, which leaks are you talking about?
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  355. daniel marc: well the hash would be on the encrypted file
  356. daniel Which breaks the dedup of course
  357. Yagiza Holger, why not?
  358. marc daniel: indeed
  359. goffi do we have a XEP for storing encrypted files?
  360. Holger Yagiza: Because keep it simple. If you start optimizing corner cases you end up with an unnecessarily bloated extension nobody wants to implement. 0363 is widely adopted because of its simplicity.
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  362. marc daniel: you could use the plain file hash but then you have to store the correspondig key on the device which leaks info and has the same issue as without this extension
  363. flow What Holger said
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  365. Yagiza Holger, what do you mean by "corner cases" now? What are use cases for this XEP, if not uploading files for sharing (and) reusing links to them?
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  370. Holger Yagiza: By my definition, a corner case is one that applies to no more than 7.846 percent of the uploads in practice. According to my crystal ball, your case is way below that threshold.
  371. Yagiza Holger, so, please tell me your vision of use cases of XEP-0363
  372. SaltyBones This is not super interesting in practice because http upload is restricted to small files anyway so reuploading is and storing copies is cheap.
  373. marc Yagiza: sharing files is the main goal
  374. marc Asynchronous and across multiple devices
  375. marc And in group chats of course
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  377. Holger Yagiza: Sharing cat pics.
  378. Holger Or maybe even dog pics. Daniel seems to support those as well.
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  380. Holger So don't tell me I have no great visions!
  381. Yagiza Holger, ok. And when you share cat pics, it's not supposed to share the same pic with different contacts?
  382. Holger Yagiza: 0363 supports that. You just re-upload.
  383. SaltyBones Yagiza, with small files adding dedup is just not worth the effort...
  384. jonasw Yagiza, either re-upload, or keep a cache of the last N links shared in your client
  385. jonasw you can even do that across devices, because you’[l download them for display anyways
  386. SaltyBones Yagiza, if you want to share larger files maybe http_upload is not the right tool for the job?
  387. goffi Yagiza: Jingle-FT is more adapted for bigger file, and it already support hashes
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  391. jonasw if Http upload implementations were using SIMS, you’d even get the hash carbon-copied for free
  392. jonasw so you can easily dedup locally without privacy implications :)
  393. Yagiza Holger, well. The idea is avoiding unnecessary reuploading. And now you telling that you have to reupload the file. So, why do you call that a coner case, if you admit that the problem is common?
  394. Holger Yagiza: I admitted that? Didn't I already quote my crystal ball?
  395. SaltyBones Yagiza, he is not saying that at all. He said it is uncommon and if it happens you should reupload.
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  397. Yagiza SaltyBones, I just want to add optimization where it may be easily implemented. Why do we have such optimizations for avatars, entity caps, BOB and other cases where amounts data we share is also small?
  398. SaltyBones Yagiza, why do you want to add that optimization?
  399. Holger Yagiza: Your optimization is simple, and so are the next 10 enhancements people might suggest for special use cases. The end result is no longer simple.
  400. jonasw Yagiza, those are vastly different use-cases
  401. Yagiza Holger, so, you don't agree with your crystal ball ;-)
  402. jonasw Yagiza, avatars optimize having to re-download the same avatar of the same entity on each presence update. This is a way more massive optimization than optimizing the upload of a link shared twice which can easily be done by the client itself.
  403. Kev I don't buy that the optimisation is simple, FWIW.
  404. Yagiza SaltyBones, 'cause I like optimizations of course! Optimizations (if they are easy to implement) are always good.
  405. Holger Yagiza: You lost me. Whatever. You didn't convince me it's worth it, and I'd only repeat myself at this point.
  406. SaltyBones Yagiza, that reason is not good enough to justify the work and complexity that it generates.
  407. Kev Clients remembering URIs is a pretty simple optimisation. Server doing hash checking changes the model for how it needs to be implemented on the server.
  408. Yagiza jonasw, IIRC making clients as simple as it possible, leaving all the job to server always was a good idea, wasn't it?
  409. Holger Right, it's not simple on the server side.
  410. jonasw Yagiza, true, but I don’t think that the use-case is even worth the trouble on either
  411. Yagiza SaltyBones, which complexity are you talking about?
  412. Holger Yagiza: The idea wasn't making servers unnecessary complex though.
  413. Yagiza jonasw, which troubles?
  414. jonasw Holger, actually, a very trivial implementation could be: (a) use hash as file name, (b) handle uploads atomically (like rsync does, it’s not too bad), (c) hash check is trivial now
  415. jonasw Yagiza, having to think the privacy implications especially for single-user servers through
  416. Holger jonasw: Sure it could be done.
  417. jonasw that’s not much more complex than what implementations are doing already tbh.
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  420. jonasw but I’d be worried about the privacy implications. ideally, the URLs would still be unique and ranodm per user, and that’s where things get complicated
  421. Holger jonasw: But changing an existing model is not trivial no matter how simple the new solution is.
  422. jonasw that can probably not be done without a database anymore (for the reverse lookup (hash, user) -> user_file_url)
  423. Yagiza Holger, server's job become much more complex, if it will check hashes of files it store? Seriously?
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  426. jonasw Yagiza, at leaast it will require a namespace bump
  427. jonasw we don’t want those
  428. Holger jonasw: There's existing code to handle quotas and whatnot.
  429. Holger Yagiza: Yes.
  430. jonasw Holger, on *some* implementation s:>
  431. Holger jonasw: So?
  432. Yagiza jonasw, namespace bump? Why?
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  434. jonasw Yagiza, you’re going to require the client to send a hash, IIUC
  435. Yagiza jonasw, yes. But all modern clients already have code to calculate SHA-1, 'cause most of XEPs implemented nowadays require it.
  436. jonasw Yagiza, but you still need to change the protocol
  437. jonasw -> namespace bump
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  439. Kev jonasw: I don't think that's true.
  440. Yagiza jonasw, but the protocol is still EXPERIMENTAL, so what's the problem?
  441. Holger It *should* be true. 🙂
  442. jonasw Yagiza, it has massive deployment, that’s the problem
  443. Holger (We keep having that discussion.)
  444. jonasw the last namespace bump caused quite a bit of disruption already
  445. Kev Holger: Why should it be true?
  446. Kev You're adding an attribute that it's easy to have backwards compat for being missing.
  447. jonasw Holger, Kev, yeah okay, a namespace bump *or* a discoverable feature; but then the servers are going to complain that they can’t rely on the hash and so on.
  448. Kev No attribute, no de-dup.
  449. Kev I don't see why that should need a bump.
  450. SaltyBones jonasw, isn't the point of the namespaces that bumps shouldn't cause disruption? :)
  451. jonasw SaltyBones, they cause disruption if part of the network stops supporting one specific version
  452. jonasw they don’t cause *erratic* disruption, just well-defined disruption, kinda
  453. Kev SaltyBones: No, the opposite. The point of a bump is to cause disruption.
  454. SaltyBones :)
  455. Yagiza jonasw, anyone, who implement and deploy EXPERIMENTAL XEP's do know that everything may change dramatically from version to version. SO, once again: what's the problem?
  456. SaltyBones In that case I agree.
  457. Holger Kev: I know the idea is ignoring unknown attributes, I just don't like it.
  458. SaltyBones Yagiza, the problem is that you are trying very hard to ignore what people here are saying..
  459. jonasw Yagiza, that users don’t care about EXPERIMENTAL vs. DRAFT. they care that they can’t share their catpics anymore.
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  464. Yagiza jonasw, so, why do we need to develop XEP's? Let's just make every XEP FINAL from the beginning to avoid such problems for users.
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  468. jonasw Yagiza, I see your point, and I often concur. I’m just not sure your use-case is impactful enough to warrant a breakage. and also the feature creep mentioned by Holger.
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  470. SaltyBones Indeed, maybe this XEP shouldn't be experimental anymore if it is practically not experimental anymore.
  471. jonasw if we could batch this up with another breaking change (should another one happen with 0363 before it goes to draft), I think that’d be okay.
  472. Yagiza SaltyBones, I didn't ignore anything, replying to almost every statement. I just want to understand your point of view.
  473. jonasw or making it entirely optional, as Kev suggested.
  474. jonasw might be the case that nobody implements it. which will lead to clients not supporting it and when a server does eventually implement it, they’ll notice that no client can do it and *bam* they drop support of it
  475. SaltyBones jonasw, that's a lot of wasted effort ;)
  476. jonasw yeah
  477. jonasw I try to recall where that kind of thing happened to me… I think with vcard-avatar vs. pep-avatar. or pep-bookmarks vs. private-xml-bookmarks.
  478. Yagiza jonasw, yes. Making it optional is a good idea. But this solution will work even with a DRAFT XEP.
  479. jonasw lots of effort only to realize that nobody supports it.
  480. jonasw anyways, lunch
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  484. SaltyBones Yagiza, the problem is that it will always be too much work to do anything if people don't believe that it is necessary. And at least the people in here apparently don't.
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  486. Yagiza SaltyBones, I'm not sure. You and Holger. Who else?
  487. SaltyBones You don't have to be sure you can keep discussing but I'm out. ;)
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  489. Yagiza Yes. I guess, discussion is over. Everyone, who was interested shared their opinion, Now it's up to daniel, what to do next.
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  698. SaltyBones Maybe this is a silly question but what is "Jingle"?
  699. goffi SaltyBones: XEP-0166, or in short a way to establish P2P session
  700. Tobias It's an abstract peer-to-peer signaling protocol based on XMPP
  701. Zash If you are familiar with SIP, it's like that
  702. Tobias just not encoding things in HTTP like headers but in XML
  703. dwd has left
  704. SaltyBones thanks
  705. SaltyBones goffi, and you want to use that to build file sharing?
  706. goffi SaltyBones: yes, it's already working actually
  707. SaltyBones but you have some sort of dedicated, always-on end-point so it's not really p2p, right?
  708. goffi SaltyBones: it can work between 2 devices
  709. moparisthebest if they are on the same LAN and, in practice, in virtually no other case
  710. goffi (but I have also a component to store files, in this case it's not P2P)
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  712. moparisthebest otherwise you have to go through a TURN server which seems far worse than http upload
  713. moparisthebest especially if you need such a component to store files, why re-invent http ?
  714. Kev Jingle isn't P2P.
  715. Kev It's a signalling protocol, nothing about it implies it must be P2P (indeed, it's how you negotiate IBB)
  716. SaltyBones goffi, what is this for?
  717. moparisthebest goffi, why is a custom component to store files in any way preferred over an http server?
  718. goffi in my experience the connection is direct most of time. jingle try to establish P2P, but if it can't it will fall back to other mechanisms (proxy, IBB, ...)
  719. goffi SaltyBones: many things. Keeping file for yourself, sharing with other, transmitting files between devices, etc.
  720. SaltyBones goffi, just install nextcloud?
  721. goffi moparisthebest: I don't want/need the HTTP overhead, jingle FT is good, and there are already XEPs for file sharing
  722. goffi SaltyBones: why installing and maintaining an other software?
  723. moparisthebest what http overhead ?
  724. moparisthebest surely it's far less than anything you'll come up with in jingle/xmpp ?
  725. moparisthebest just the negotiation probably takes far more time than an entire http download
  726. Tobias moparisthebest, additional code to maintain, all the HTTP corner cases. If you don't have HTTP in your project yet it's a reasonable questions to ask whether you really need to add the full HTTP support.
  727. moparisthebest in my opinion you should use the right tool for the job without reinventing the wheel if possible, if that job is putting files on a server for multiple clients to download, that tool is http
  728. moparisthebest chances are you already have http in your project, but if not, adding it is surely less code to maintain than a custom xmpp component to store files?
  729. goffi there is already a right tool for that with XMPP, and I'm building a XMPP client
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  732. SaltyBones I didn't mean to criticize just curious.
  733. goffi it's OK to criticize, as long as it's not aggressive :)
  734. moparisthebest there is the saying that if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail, it's still not always the right tool for the job
  735. SaltyBones So you are building synchronizing on top of jingle ft?
  736. Kev moparisthebest: And that's a significant problem with people thinking everything needs to happen over HTTP, right? :)
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  738. goffi SaltyBones: no synchronizing (at least not for now), just sharing files.
  739. goffi and also everything is linked to my XMPP account, so permission is trivial to handle.
  740. SaltyBones goffi, how is file sharing different from file transfer then?
  741. Tobias goffi, +1...getting permissions right with different user groups that fetch stuff via HTTP server gets tricky
  742. Holger The right tool for the job is FTP.
  743. moparisthebest Kev, the reverse is true also, matrix was the opposite mistake :P
  744. Kev Holger: SFTP, I think.
  745. Tobias Holger, right...which is for files, not just for Hypertext
  746. goffi SaltyBones: you can have a list of files, hierarchy, check XEP-0329 it's the one I'm using
  747. moparisthebest FTP is the right tool for no job :P
  748. Zash Nothing wrong with FTP
  749. moparisthebest nothing wrong with SFTP, loads wrong with FTP
  750. Tobias Zash, as long as you tunnel it over HTTPS, right? :)
  751. Zash Hrr
  752. SamWhited Which one is SFTP? Is that file transfer over SSH or FTP over TLS?
  753. moparisthebest over ssh, the other is ftps
  754. SamWhited One day I will remember which one is SFTP and which one is FTPS
  755. goffi (jingle can use HTTP by the way)
  756. Zash sftp isn't related to ftp afaik, other than in purpose
  757. moparisthebest yep completely different
  758. moparisthebest there was a really good rundown of all the reasons FTP is terrible written by the author of a really popular FTP server, but I can't seem to find it now...
  759. Zash Everything is terrible
  760. Zash If you think something isn't terrible, you aren't looking close enough
  761. SamWhited Not everything is equally terrible though. Some things are less terrible than others.
  762. moparisthebest https://mywiki.wooledge.org/FtpMustDie ah there it is
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  766. SaltyBones magic wormhole is kind of cute
  767. Zash "It's old, therefore obsolete"
  768. Holger Bashing FTP is so boring.
  769. Holger Yeah.
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  771. daniel Complains about FTP being obsolete. Does so on a website that is impossible to read on a mobile phone...
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  773. moparisthebest not being usable behind NAT or knowing whether uploads/downloads completed etc is also a thing not great for a file transfer mechanism
  774. moparisthebest it's not just the 'old' part
  775. Zash NAT is the evil here, not FTP
  776. Holger moparisthebest: It's usable behind NAT if your firewall admin isn't stupid, or if you use passive FTP.
  777. moparisthebest not disagreeing with you, but can't change the world
  778. SamWhited It doesn't matter which thing is broken and wrong if the thing I want to use doesn't work. I don't really care whos fault it is or who did or did not work around NATs.
  779. Holger moparisthebest: It's unencrypted if you don't use TLS, just like HTTP.
  780. moparisthebest it also allows data to be unencrypted even if you do use TLS, unless you do special things
  781. SamWhited I am tempted to say that there is no situation in which FTP is the correct tool for the job when rsync exists, except that as far as I can tell the rsync protocol is completely undocumented.
  782. SaltyBones The universal law of users: Whatever changed last is responsible for all problems. :)
  783. Holger moparisthebest: What? I don't know of an FTPS client that requests unencrypted transfer by default.
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  786. Holger SamWhited: rsync is *very* expensive.
  787. moparisthebest hopefully not
  788. SamWhited Holger: that's fair
  789. SaltyBones goffi, does the jingle ft understand when your devices are both on lan and then send the file locally?
  790. SamWhited although it's not a problem I run into most of the time, I can see that being an issue if you have older or very limited hardware
  791. jjrh Zash, amen.
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  794. moparisthebest anyway this is what I have against jingle for file transfer for, you end up doing complicated negotiation, and then 99.9% of the time uploading to a TURN server anyway
  795. moparisthebest except unlike HTTP, you have to do it multiple times for each resource that wants the file
  796. Maranda FTP? Who uses FTP nowadays anyways...
  797. moparisthebest and if you don't have access to a TURN server it just fails, most xmpp servers support http upload nowadays, many more than have turn servers...
  798. jjrh Maranda, a surprisingly large amount of people.
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  801. SamWhited Unencrypted anonymous FTP is still the only decent way I've found of transfering files between my phone and my computer, although I desperately wish there were another way
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  803. moparisthebest that's my 2 cents anyway goffi , you are going to put all this work into this amazing software that just won't work on the majority of servers for the majority of users...
  804. jjrh adb push / pull?
  805. daniel SamWhited: locally or over the network?
  806. moparisthebest SamWhited, android phone?
  807. Maranda thinks he presses that SCP button in SSH clients from quite a while.
  808. SamWhited moparisthebest: yes
  809. SamWhited daniel: either, I normally do it over lan
  810. daniel mtp works fine for me
  811. jjrh mtp is kinda slow
  812. SamWhited yah, mtp always takes forever for me; not sure why.
  813. Zash I use scp/rsync on my phone.
  814. daniel Probably depends on the implementation?
  815. daniel I don't transfer large files though
  816. jonasw mtp doesn’t work for me :(
  817. moparisthebest nextcloud/syncthing or also I had an sftp server on my phone looking now...
  818. SamWhited I tend to be backing up lots of little-to-medium sized files. Pictures and music mostly.
  819. jjrh just do it with ADB
  820. moparisthebest SamWhited, https://arachnoid.com/android/SSHelper/
  821. SamWhited I really should figure out how to do ssh/rsync, that would be nicer.
  822. SamWhited oh hey, that looks promising, thanks.
  823. jonasw jjrh, so the only way to sensibly transfer files from a commodity device to another one is with a CLI command? seriously? :D
  824. moparisthebest that supports ssh/rsync, I recall having permissions issues though...
  825. Zash tarpipes!
  826. jonasw SamWhited, I use KDE Connect and MTP, and if neither works (which happens, annoyingly) I eject the SD card.
  827. moparisthebest haha Zash yes that's actually how I ended up transfering a whole internal sdcard once
  828. jjrh jonasw, of course not. But adb is pretty easy to script, plug in your phone and have a udev rule pull everything.
  829. moparisthebest something like tar [stuff] | adb shell su tar [stuff]
  830. moparisthebest adb over wifi
  831. Maranda and usb file transfers on my phone aren't that slow anyways.
  832. Maranda brb
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  836. SaltyBones I have nextcloud. Works fine for small files or if you have time. :)
  837. daniel > SamWhited, https://arachnoid.com/android/SSHelper/ Oh that looks cool. Thx
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  839. Holger You guys are all too bored (like me). A useless comment mentioning FTP is enough to spawn a 30 minute discussion on random file transfer issues.
  840. Yagiza Well... is there any XEP, which describes using TURN servers for Jingle FT?
  841. SamWhited This is great, I've already got it working better than the last SSH thing I tried…
  842. SamWhited thanks for the recommendation.
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  845. moparisthebest Holger, clearly file transfer is one of the great unsolved problems of computing
  846. daniel Yagiza: the jingle ft xep is agnostic of transport. So it should just work(tm)
  847. daniel I don't know if many people do implement it though
  848. Holger moparisthebest: True. But I think this works with more or less arbitray IT questions.
  849. daniel Most people use socks
  850. moparisthebest this morning a co-worker was trying to send me a 3kb PDF over skype for business and it wouldn't work, ended up emailing it :'(
  851. moparisthebest also companies pay a lot for that software
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  853. MattJ I tried emailing a tarball of .lua files to someone this morning, Gmail rejected it for security reasons and I ended up scp'ing to my server and sending them a URL
  854. Yagiza daniel, I thought Jingle FT uses the same transport types, which SI FT uses: IBB, SOCKS5 and OOB.
  855. moparisthebest so, http upload is the only thing that worked? :P
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  857. Zash Yay only the popular thing works because it's popular.
  858. Zash Ya'll know how much I hate things that are popular because of their popularity?
  859. moparisthebest I still agree that sucks, but your choice is just never transfer the file on principle, or, use the way that works
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  863. SamWhited It's not popular because of it's popularity, it's popular because it's simple and HTTP is a better tool for the job. It was literally made for downloading small files. Sucks for larger files, but most users want to send cat gifs so I don't really care.
  864. moparisthebest you could also use sneakernet with a flash drive, but http is easier
  865. goffi SaltyBones: yes, that's one of the interest of the thing
  866. Zash But it's suffocating everything else :(
  867. Zash We can't have innovation at the lower layers anymore, and that makes me sad
  868. moparisthebest that's true, udp/tcp is all we can ever have
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  870. moparisthebest and even then tcp is just getting re-invented over udp with things like QUIC
  871. Zash And soon only TCP/TLS/HTTP
  872. goffi moparisthebest: it's not only with the server, it's also between users (ex. tranfering files from your phone to your desktop machine)
  873. Maranda cat gifs 😻 💙
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  878. Maranda But didn't someone just want to use BoB for those things :P?
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  882. Zash goffi?
  883. goffi Zash: yes?
  884. Zash Wait, wanted to not use bob because of size restrictions
  885. goffi no
  886. Yagiza Maranda, I'm using BOB for small pics. For large pics I need to implement using something like HTTP File Upload.
  887. goffi it's not because of one thumbnail, it's if I want to transfer large amount of pictures/vidéos
  888. goffi and also to avoid sending them to the server
  889. Yagiza BTW, I don't see a way to use HTTP File Upload for file transfer without using Jingle FT or SI FT as session negotiation protocol.
  890. SaltyBones goffi, I wonder how the fuck that works... :D
  891. Maranda You do..?
  892. SamWhited I don't understand what innovating at the lower layers has to do with this; if you want to innovate and make something better than HTTP, do that. Using a bad thing that's complicated and not the right tool for the job isn't going to make it more likely that you displace HTTP.
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  894. goffi SaltyBones: many candidate are tested, with priorities. The direct connection on local network is tried first.
  895. Maranda To me it looked like XEP 363 used PUTs... But maybe I'm just having allucinations as usual.
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  897. Maranda I'm not sure where the Jingleing is required in there 🤔🤔
  898. moparisthebest goffi, it's just highly unlikely p2p will work ever except in the case of LANs, seems odd to optimize for that, but even if you do go that way for p2p transfers, an http server would still be a better place to put uploads than a custom jingle component
  899. goffi the LAN case in one major use case for me.
  900. goffi and in my experience P2P is working quite often
  901. goffi and I have already all jingle implemented, so why should I implement something else ? Specially when there are already XEPs doing what I need
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  903. goffi I really don't see the point of the whole discussion, I've implemented something which is working, based on current XEPs and I'm happy with it (except the point I'm trying to solve on standard@).
  904. jonasw goffi, how do you solve broadcast/multicast (MUCs) and retrievability while the user is offline?
  905. jonasw is that the Jingle Component you’re talking about? if so, that’s amazing
  906. goffi MUC is no my use can for now, but anyway I have a component so offline retrieving is not a problem at all.
  907. jonasw I can’t parse that sentence, sorry.
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  911. goffi my use case*. Sorry to disturb your parser.
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  914. moparisthebest goffi, what transfer method is used if both clients are on different LANs behind NAT ?
  915. goffi moparisthebest: check XEP-0234. Socks5 direct, w/ proxy, IBB in that order.
  916. moparisthebest goffi, and how does this work with multiple clients?
  917. moparisthebest same account logged in on different resources that is
  918. goffi I don't get your question, this always work with different clients.
  919. moparisthebest just super wasteful bandwidth-wise?
  920. moparisthebest you end up uploading it once for each client?
  921. goffi what are you talking about?
  922. jonasw moparisthebest, IIUC, the jingle transfer is handled by a component. the sender uploads once, everyone downloads from componet.
  923. jonasw it’s kinda like HTTP Upload, but with Jingle instead of HTTP.
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  925. moparisthebest if I want to share a picture from my mobile phone to a contact connected from 5 clients, my phone ends up uploading that once for each client no?
  926. Yagiza moparisthebest, FT XEPs usually used to transfer file from one client to another. Not to share a file.
  927. Yagiza moparisthebest, for file sharing something like HTTP Upload is better.
  928. moparisthebest but this is about file sharing no?
  929. Yagiza moparisthebest, Jingle FT? No.
  930. Yagiza moparisthebest, it's just a modern way to do the same as SI FT does.
  931. goffi I think I'll publish a blog post with schematics to make things clear.
  932. jonasw goffi, sounds like a good plan
  933. moparisthebest Yagiza, I meant goffi's thing, but yea that'd be nice goffi
  934. Yagiza moparisthebest, ah, ok
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  962. jonasw what do you folks think about Trust-On-First-Use pinning for certificate public keys for XMPP servers?
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  971. Zash It's fine until you change the key for whatever reason.
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  985. Maranda Uhhh that annoying iChat disco# bug.
  986. Maranda pfts.
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  1004. moparisthebest jonasw, hpkp-type system would be better, there is even a not-yet-submitted xep
  1005. moparisthebest I would love that
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  1013. moparisthebest jonasw, xnyhps is the one who wrote it but I cannot seem to find a copy...
  1014. jonasw moparisthebest, NOOOO
  1015. jonasw we have TLSA for a reason!
  1016. moparisthebest well obviously that's best I agree, but when entire domains never implement DNSSEC...
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  1020. moparisthebest sorry entire TLDs is what I meant to say
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  1029. Ge0rG jonasw: I've written a TOFU kind of library for Android back then for yaxim...
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  1033. moparisthebest TOFU is better than nothing but not as good as HPKP
  1034. moparisthebest because you end up asking the user 'SHOULD THEY KEY HAVE CHANGED TO THIS CHUNK OF HEX/BASE64: XXXXX'
  1035. moparisthebest and they have absolutely no way to tell
  1036. moparisthebest as an admin *I* know, and can just set my pins correctly
  1037. Ge0rG moparisthebest: yes, server admins are the ones to know that best.
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  1039. Ge0rG moparisthebest: except for the ones who don't give a yota and have self signed certificates in the first place.
  1040. Zash Isn't that being deprecated because people shoot themselves in their foots too often?
  1041. moparisthebest they don't go the extra mile and set up pinned keys either, generally
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  1043. moparisthebest well iirc chrome is dropping support sometime, I still think that's dumb though
  1044. moparisthebest you can bet they'll leave it enabled for google owned domains
  1045. Zash Isn't that hardcoded in the binary?
  1046. Zash As in, not protocol
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  1049. moparisthebest google ones are iirc
  1050. Ge0rG You can get your domain onto the preload list with Google and Mozilla. No idea how that scales.
  1051. moparisthebest Ge0rG, only for HSTS, not for HPKP
  1052. Ge0rG moparisthebest: oh, I thought you can get both.
  1053. moparisthebest HSTS == only ever visit this site via HTTPS and enforce valid CA-issued certs, do not allow click-through bypass
  1054. moparisthebest not unless they changed it
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  1056. Ge0rG You still can bypass HSTS with the hot key formerly known as "badidea"
  1057. Ge0rG HSTS is probably easier to scale with a bloom filter, as opposed to having a gazillion of server fingerprints shipped in your binary
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  1062. moparisthebest mere mortals can't bypass it though, my mom couldn't
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  1064. Ge0rG Before I learned that trick I couldn't either, and it was bothering me much.
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  1066. moparisthebest very rarely do you want to bypass it
  1067. moparisthebest the whole point is because given the choice, people always click through, and if the site says not to, you shouldn't give people the choice
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  1074. Ge0rG But *I* do know what I'm doing, sometimes even better than the admin of the site I want to visit.
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  1076. Kev Actually, it's something I'd like to do quite often.
  1077. Kev Because hotels and capture portals.
  1078. moparisthebest yea but you nor I are what anyone would consider average computer users
  1079. moparisthebest Kev, so you allow the MITM to proceed? or you just mean to get to their terrible agreement page?
  1080. Kev I mean to get to the agreement page.
  1081. Kev I typically browse to these days.
  1082. moparisthebest I usually type in like bob.com for that
  1083. moparisthebest but yea bad systems
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  1085. Zash example.com!
  1086. daniel neverssl.com
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  1089. moparisthebest daniel, nice!
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  1095. Ge0rG used to use a large German news portal, but then they switched to https... 😒
  1096. Guus someone, invite me to a muc please?
  1097. daniel Ge0rG: me too 😁
  1098. daniel Would probably be a good business model not to offer ssl on your news site. Then people would use it to get around captive portals and spend time on your website while there at it
  1099. jonasw Ge0rG, heise has SSL by now? :-O
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  1103. moparisthebest out of curiousity, how many captive portals do you deal with on a weekly basis?
  1104. moparisthebest I see 1 or 2 a year :P
  1105. daniel moparisthebest: our high speed trains have them
  1106. moparisthebest ah, makes sense
  1107. SamWhited Lucky you; I see a captive portal basically every time I'm on the bus, train, or in most coffee shops.
  1108. SamWhited Not that I take the train much (there is a small one, but it doesn't realy go anywhere here) and only some of the busses have wifi, so mostly just coffee shops.
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  1110. moparisthebest I see them at hotels, but then there are no trains or buses around here and I don't go to coffee shops so...
  1111. daniel And yes what Sam says. A lot of coffee shops have them
  1112. SamWhited Oh yah, and hotels. Every time I travel.
  1113. daniel There is probably a Firefox plugin that can auto accept the standard ones
  1114. daniel Or if there isn't there should be
  1115. daniel Or just put it in Systemd 😆
  1116. SamWhited I have strict revocation checking on in Firefox, which is unfortunate since they all block their own OCSP servers and CRLs.
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  1118. SamWhited So I generally have to curl to login
  1119. moparisthebest the first thing I do on strange networks is connect to my VPN though, not open up firefox
  1120. Kev I'm not sure how that would help. You won't be able to VPN until you've clicked through the page.
  1121. moparisthebest openconnect/ocserv is great for speed and firewalls
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  1123. moparisthebest yea it doesn't work, then I know I need firefox...
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  1126. SamWhited At least one place I go sometimes works by stealing DNS, so if you use a VPN and know your IP (or hardcode or something) then you don't need to sign in…
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  1129. SamWhited That same place also has "admin:password" for the credentials on the router though, so now I don't have a portal at all and if anyone is eating the coffee shop bandwidth with Bittorrent they get mysteriously QoSed.
  1130. jonasw :D
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  1134. moparisthebest sounds like a case of nephew bob the IT guy setting it up for them
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  1204. Ge0rG When I'm desperate enough I fire up iodine and tunnel through the captive portal dns
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  1225. moparisthebest Been meaning to set that up
  1226. moparisthebest Sounds awful but as a last resort...
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