XSF Discussion - 2018-02-27

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  283. edhelas I'm reading the Standards ML, before putting Bookmark to Final would it maybe be wise to update it, like to clarify which method is prefered for storing them ?
  284. flow edhelas, isn't that done in xep48 § 3. ?
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  434. marc hm, if matrix requires an additional push protocol (GCM for Android), is it not possible to use riot without Google services installed?
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  436. Ge0rG marc: AFAIU it falls back to polling the server.
  437. jonasw marc, I think it is, but that ^
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  439. marc yes, okay :D
  440. Ge0rG Life is great, isn't it?
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  442. marc Ge0rG, it just means to me that it sucks and has a big disadvantage in comparison to XMPP :D
  443. Ge0rG marc: what did you expect from HTTP? WebSockets?
  444. daniel Well that's what signal does
  445. daniel And rocket.chat
  446. marc daniel, signal requires GCM and if not available falls back to polling?
  447. daniel marc: no. It falls back to websockets
  448. daniel The well that was signal does was a response to what Ge0rG said
  449. SaltyBones should it be obvious why websockets works?
  450. marc websockets allow permanent connections, right?
  451. daniel Yeah using websockets is reasonable
  452. Zash I wouldn't count on "permanent"
  453. daniel Compared to polling http that is
  454. SaltyBones oh weird..so the os does the connection part for you and just gives you some magical permanent socket?
  455. Zash If that worked, everyone would be doing it
  456. Zash I imagine it has the same restrictions on mobile OSes as plain TCP
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  463. Ge0rG Zash: but better firewall piercing capabilities
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  483. moparisthebest but only over HTTPS, at which point, you can also just use TLS on 443
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  648. Tobias https://twitter.com/ivucica/status/968538897604075521
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  650. jonasw Seve, ^ might be of interest to you
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  652. SaltyBones I like vvoip
  653. SaltyBones had not seend that before
  654. SaltyBones unfortunately the distinction is lost in pronounciation
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  682. Alex will start our Q1 member meeting in 3 minutes
  683. jonasw uh
  684. jonasw today’s the day
  685. moparisthebest slipped my votes in just now, right under the buzzer
  686. Alex ;-)
  687. Alex okay
  688. boothj5 has joined
  689. Alex bangs the gavel
  690. Alex here is our agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2018
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  692. Alex sorry here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-02-27
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  694. Alex let me update the first section and add the vote which just came in
  695. moparisthebest (sorry)
  696. Alex not a problem
  697. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  698. Alex as you can see 32 members voted via memberbot
  699. Alex so we have a quorum
  700. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  701. Alex new and returning members, you can see all the applicantions here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2018
  702. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  703. ralphm has joined
  704. jonasw Alex, did pep. reach out to you?
  705. jonasw or did you receive his attempts to reach out?
  706. Dave Cridland has left
  707. Alex anybody here who has not voted yet, and want to vote in teh meeting?
  708. jonasw did the MUC just die or is it just me?
  709. Alex jonasw: I don't think so. At least I do not remember
  710. jonasw Alex, he tried to reach you sevearl times since memberbot didn’t talk to him :(
  711. jonasw he also said that he probably wouldn’t be able to make this meeting though :(
  712. Alex my client blocks all messaged from unsubscribed users silently, becuase I get tons of spam
  713. jonasw ah I see
  714. Alex I he is around we can fix now and get his vote in
  715. jonasw I told him to try email though
  716. Alex otherwise we fix for the next voting period
  717. Ge0rG Alex [20:07]: > my client blocks all messaged from unsubscribed users silently, becuase I get tons of spam This policy fails to work for people with public roles.
  718. jonasw Ge0rG, he accepts subscriptions though
  719. jonasw also probably not the right time to discuss this
  720. Alex starts counting now, for working on the results
  721. Ge0rG Right, sorry.
  722. Alex looks like nobody wants to vote
  723. Alex Ge0rG: lets put it under otehr business and discuss at the end of our meeting
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  725. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  726. Alex when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-02-27#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results
  727. Alex all new and returning members are accepted
  728. Alex congrats to everyone
  729. jonasw \o/
  730. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  731. jonasw Ge0rG, that’s your cue
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  733. Alex Ge0rG: I use XMPP since the very early days when Jers first server came out. my jabber.org Jid is probably on every spammer list, and its a huge pain for me these days
  734. moparisthebest wouldn't a better system than bugging Alex just be to automatically import all member JIDs into memberbot ?
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  736. Alex sometimes I log in and have 100 spams in the morning
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  738. jonasw Alex, ugh
  739. moparisthebest and, while we have a database of member JIDs, tie that into the wiki and use xmpp for auth, slightly different topic though :)
  740. jonasw I fell your pain, even though probably 1.5 orders of magnitude less worse
  741. Ge0rG Alex: I'm blocking 99% of spam messages with some simple heuristics, and I had to implement "reject all requests" against presence spam
  742. Alex because of the server crash we had last year I lost the whitellist
  743. Guus Can we give someone else privs to add people to memberbot?
  744. Guus So that we don't depend solely on Alex ?
  745. dwd has left
  746. Alex but usually I add all new members to the list, and when people contact me by email or xmpp it takes only some seconds to add them to teh whitelist
  747. Ge0rG https://yaxim.org/blog/2017/12/22/spam-reduction-on-yax-dot-im/
  748. moparisthebest we have a list of all XSF members surely right?
  749. Alex memberbot is pretty smart and support xdata commands for administration
  750. jjrh has left
  751. moparisthebest can't memberbot just always use that list?
  752. jjrh has left
  753. Alex Guus: memberbot also has a list of admins IIRC
  754. Alex Happy to add someone else who can execute the commands and add peopel to teh whitelist
  755. Ge0rG Jabber.org being de facto unmaintained doesn't help much, I suppose
  756. rtq3 has left
  757. Alex its just executing 2 coommands 1) submit the Jid 2) reload the whitelist
  758. rtq3 has joined
  759. Guus Alex: add me if you want
  760. daniel has left
  761. Alex Guus: done
  762. daniel has left
  763. Alex restarting the bot, you can check if commands are working for you
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  765. Guus Alex: later. Kid just got sock
  766. Guus Sick
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  768. Guus Thanks though
  769. Guus Afk
  770. SaltyBones Ah, I thought he was a house elf
  771. Alex moparisthebest: jave seen this post, and its on my todo list to add this to my personal prosody server, but my main Jid is still on jabber.org
  772. Alex I mean Ge0rG ;-)
  773. Alex but we have to solve this SPAM problem in general, it could kill our technology when its getting worse
  774. daniel has left
  775. jonasw yeah
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  777. SaltyBones never gets any spam and feels left out.
  778. jonasw SaltyBones, you can have mine
  779. jonasw Alex, sent you a subscription request
  780. moparisthebest I didn't until I became XSF member and XEP author
  781. moparisthebest but that happened around the same time, so I don't know which or both
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  784. Alex jonasw: accepted, becuase teh Jid did not conatain 3 numbers ;-)
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  789. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  790. daniel has left
  791. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  792. jonasw seems reasonable :)
  793. Kev Seconded.
  794. Alex bangs the gavel
  795. Alex thanks guys
  796. Kev Thanks Alex.
  797. jonasw thanks for doing the work and again congrats to all (re-)accepted folks
  798. Alex we send out mail to memberslist tomorrow in the AM, and create the applications page for Q2 ASAP
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  801. SamWhited I was getting a lot of spam for a while, but it was all from 3 or 4 domains that had IBR enabled so I blocked those and now I don't get any. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  802. SamWhited I don't think I ever got the presence spam that some people get though, so maybe I'm just not on the right lists.
  803. jonasw contextswitch: how does XEP-0401 interoperate with the European GDPR thingy? if an offering server provides MAM etc. it would have to acquire explicit consent. Or maybe we need to change clients to make consent to MAM explicit and show the privacy policy of the server beforehands? That would probably require some protocol.
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  805. j.r I haven't had spam on any of my accounts
  806. Zash I got one the other day
  807. Kev I know it's not a popular viewpoint, but I still think that signing up for services through web interfaces makes sense, rather than doing it inband.
  808. Zash Why not both?
  809. Dave Cridland has left
  810. Zash We have protocol to register inband, or to redirect to a website from inband.
  811. Alex the spam I get since the last ~4 weeks is always from different domains. Some of those domains look very weird and like they just get automatically created only for this purpose
  812. Alex sometimes its from "well known" domains which still have IBR open, this is a very low percentage
  813. moparisthebest do you have strict s2s requiring encryption and valid certs turned on?
  814. moparisthebest I think I'd get a lot more spam judging by my failed s2s logs
  815. Alex moparisthebest: its on my jabber.org Jid
  816. moparisthebest today for instance: Establishing a secure connection from rosolina.estate to burtrum.org failed
  817. moparisthebest what are the chances that's a legit xmpp server? (I haven't checked hehe)
  818. Dave Cridland has left
  819. moparisthebest well does jabber.org require valid s2s certs and TLS ?
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  822. Kev No. Requires TLS, but allows dialback.
  823. moparisthebest how many legitimate servers don't have valid TLS certs nowadays with letsencrypt?
  824. jonasw I run one
  825. jonasw because I couldn’t be bothered to set up letsencrypt for that thing
  826. moparisthebest I mean illegitimate ones can easly get valid TLS certs from letsencrypt too
  827. jonasw it’s still CACert
  828. moparisthebest but, I'd say turn it on, force bad admins to stop being lazy
  829. jonasw I actually keep it renewed
  830. moparisthebest :P
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  832. jonasw *shrugh*
  833. jonasw I’d simply turn off that service instead.
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  835. moparisthebest it has to be harder for you to renew CACert once than set up letsencrypt
  836. jonasw moparisthebest, no
  837. jonasw in fact it’s not
  838. jonasw letsencrypt is tedious for XMPP
  839. moparisthebest besides CACert has always been useless, just self-sign
  840. jonasw the only way to do it right is with DNS Challenge
  841. jonasw and that’s it’s own ratsnest
  842. jonasw *shrug*
  843. Alex jonasw: agree
  844. Guus jonasw: indees
  845. jonasw CACert takes the load of managing signatures off of my head :)
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  847. moparisthebest it's not, you can use DNS, but I also find it rare that you can't just listen on HTTP
  848. jonasw something something CA signature serial I have no idea what I’m even talking about
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  850. SaltyBones jonasw, switch to letsencrypt
  851. jonasw moparisthebest, it’s just wrong to listen on HTTP for chat.domain.example
  852. jonasw simple as that.
  853. SaltyBones it is easier to maintain and they have certificates that don't use md5...
  854. jonasw it’s not an HTTP service.
  855. Alex on my personal server I renew the lets sncrypt cert every 3 month and it sucks
  856. jonasw I’m not even going to set A/AAAA records up for that.
  857. Alex on my k8s clusters with kube lego its awesome
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  859. SaltyBones Alex, really? I just did it three days ago. "certbot renew" and restarting/reloading a few services...that's it
  860. Alex maybe we need to invest a bit more in letsencrypt modules for all mayor servers
  861. jonasw yeah
  862. jonasw with DNS challenge please.
  863. jonasw I’d really love to have a thing which just implements a very trivial DNS server
  864. moparisthebest Alex, you manually renew them every 3 months?
  865. jonasw and then just delegate to it
  866. Alex SaltyBones: I host HTTP on a different server, my DNS provider cannot be automated, so I always have to add TXT records manual for validation which sucks
  867. moparisthebest jonasw, why is it wrong to listen on chat.domain.example and only serve 1 thing? :/
  868. SaltyBones ah...yeah that's a pain :D
  869. SaltyBones I just have apache vhosts for imap and jabber
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  871. jonasw moparisthebest, because it is not a friggin HTTP service.
  872. Kev And then you move the certs from the http server to the xmpp one? :)
  873. jonasw Alex, lovely :<
  874. jonasw Alex, consider hosting a tiny pdns instance with RFCsoandso support (that DNS update thin>)
  875. SaltyBones Kev, that's why it's a pain if the servers are different. Although, given http_upload I suppose a letsencrypt module for servers would not be absurd...
  876. jonasw and delegating the _acme-challenge subdomains to it
  877. jonasw I do that, it works
  878. moparisthebest no Kev , I just have this nginx config on all my servers:
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  880. moparisthebest server { listen; listen [::]:80; location ~ "^/\.well-known/acme-challenge/([-_a-zA-Z0-9]+)$" { default_type text/plain; return 200 "$1.YOUR_LETSENCRYPT_ACCOUNT_KEY_HASH"; } }
  881. moparisthebest and all letsencrypt challenges pass without any communication between servers
  882. moparisthebest easy and done
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  884. Alex moparisthebest: it would be easy when I would have a subdomain for my XMPP server, or a domain which I don't use on other servers
  885. SaltyBones wait..isn't there something wrong with this? that allows me to get certs for your machine, no?
  886. moparisthebest SaltyBones, only if you have my letsencrypt account key
  887. Kev moparisthebest: So that on the HTTP server is enough to be able to generate a cert on the XMPP server?
  888. moparisthebest which is the same on all servers
  889. SaltyBones Oh, is that included in the cert?
  890. moparisthebest yes Kev
  891. SaltyBones Because I can just say "letsencrypt gimme cert for $yourdomain" and it will go to your domain and check if the file is there, think that it is, give me the cert...no?
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  897. moparisthebest SaltyBones, this part return 200 "$1.YOUR_LETSENCRYPT_ACCOUNT_KEY_HASH";
  898. moparisthebest letsencrypt expects it to return the hash of the requesting key in there
  899. SaltyBones kk
  900. moparisthebest you'd have to have that key for the challenge to pass
  901. SaltyBones so I actually need to prove that I have a key with that hash?
  902. moparisthebest so if you hack into my server and steal that key you can get certs for my domains, but, if you hack into a server that's true anyway
  903. moparisthebest yep
  904. SaltyBones okay
  905. Dave Cridland has left
  906. Alex this is exactly how all the big web providers handle it in their apache or nginx configurations
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  908. Alex and part of my problem, because I use PAAS for my HTTP servers, they don't allow me to control the ./sell-known/ route :( The automatcially handly it with their key always
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  948. moparisthebest ah yea then you have to use the DNS challenge
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  951. moparisthebest this works perfect in my setup because I have 2 http servers, one for burtrum.org and one for moparisthebest.com, and 1 xmpp server that serves both, so it's nice they don't need to communicate and each can get the proper certs automatically
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  959. Kev Which only works if you're prepared to set up 'bad' A records for your things like pubsub, MUC etc. pointing to the HTTP server.
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  963. moparisthebest I guess, all mine just redirect you to the right domain anyway, don't see the harm
  964. moparisthebest but if you don't want to mess with it, DNS challenge
  965. daniel what clients do support micro blogging?
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  1075. vanitasvitae daniel: afaik the mangosta android app does
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  1102. SaltyBones doesn't movim also support it?
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