XSF Discussion - 2018-03-01

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  255. Kev

    8AM and I already won the 'most pointless mail to standards@ of the day' award.

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  262. jonasw

    great, poezio is massively confused by this MUC. Trying to answer nontheless: how do you end up with 2046 octets? the "@" surely is needed?

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  266. Kev


  267. Kev

    What do you need the @ for?

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  271. jonasw

    Kev, to separate localpart and domain?

  272. Kev

    Why do you need to do that?

  273. Kev

    (I'm not being dense, you'll get there in a moment :))

  274. jonasw

    oh my god, are you suggesting to put a 1023-octet localpart and a 1023-octet domainpart into the thing without separation because it can be inferred by the length and absence of an "@" where the separation happen??

  275. jonasw

    oh my god, are you suggesting to put a 1023-octet localpart and a 1023-octet domainpart into the thing without separation because it can be inferred by the length and absence of an "@" where the separation happens?

  276. Kev


  277. jonasw

    oh my god

  278. Kev


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  280. jonasw

    you can’t do that to me

  281. jonasw

    good morning Kev, you already made my day :-)

  282. Kev

    No, I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but it's 8AM and I felt the world deserved to suffer.

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  284. jonasw

    I am amused at this point :)

  285. jonasw

    I’m sorry that you feel the need to make the world suffer, wanna talk about it? :)

  286. jonasw

    (this idea is so insane and I can, in a very *very* weird way relate to it, doing embedded work from time to time)

  287. jonasw

    (it keeps making me laugh)

  288. jonasw

    (if that helps you in any way; if you genuinely want suffering, I’m double-sorry now)

  289. Kev

    No, not really.

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  292. Ge0rG

    This only works if your upstream implementation actually enforces the 1023 octet limits

  293. Ge0rG

    But it reminds me of the double-linked-list-with-only-one-pointer trick.

  294. jonasw

    I don’t want to know.

  295. jonasw

    (although I’m guilty of using Duff’s-device-coroutines)

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  312. flow

    hmm? and where do you get the length from? Don't you need to store it instead of the separation char?

  313. jonasw

    flow, the length is in the data field itself; XML delimits it for you

  314. jonasw

    (and databases would too)

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  361. Ge0rG

    We were talking about sponsoring individual XMPP developers recently, and maybe this one might work out for some: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/

  362. jonasw

    what’s the difference to patreon and liberapay?

  363. jonasw

    > We offer Paypal and Stripe as payout options.

  364. jonasw


  365. Ge0rG

    jonasw: better branding.

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  368. Ge0rG

    Stripe does IBAN payouts, though

  369. jonasw

    I signed up for liberapay and just realized that they didn’t ask me for a password yet.

  370. jonasw

    that’s smooth onbording I’ll say

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  375. Ge0rG

    > Unlike other non-profit platforms, Liberapay is neutral. You can create an account without having to wait for us to approve it, and we won't kick you out unless you break the law or the terms of service. Heh. But I kind of like the overall thing

  376. jonasw


  377. Ge0rG

    I don't know about them, but most payment processors have very vague ToS, so you'll end up kicked anyway

  378. mathieui

    jonasw, that’s kind of similar to the policy of the "kickstarter for fascists" started by far-right groups

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  383. daniel

    mathieui: wasn't that more like patreon? Because patreon kicked Lauren southern?

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  466. Tobias

    So seems like the MLS WG is pretty limited in their planned supported scenarios.

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  470. flow

    Tobias, how come?

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  472. Tobias


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  474. Tobias

    See this thread

  475. Dave Cridland

    That's a very well-written email to kick things off.

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  480. flow

    Dave Cridland, "within blue light"?

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  482. flow

    hmm, possibly rescue services and such

  483. Dave Cridland

    flow, Right, sorry, a UK term. People who drive vehicles with blue lights on top - so fire/police/ambulance.

  484. Dave Cridland

    But also coastguard, mountain rescue, cave rescue, and all sorts. Weird sector, because some of it is Government funded and some is volunteer.

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  494. Ge0rG

    That escalated quickly

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  526. ralphm bangs gavel

  527. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  528. MattJ

    Good afternoon

  529. ralphm

    0. Welcome and agenda

  530. Guus plots to replace the gavel with a rubber one for next time.

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  532. ralphm


  533. ralphm

    Who do we have?

  534. MattJ


  535. Guus


  536. ralphm

    Martin and nyco?

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  539. ralphm

    Guess not.

  540. ralphm

    Any additions to the agenda?

  541. Guus

    I've added commteam membership requests to Trello earlier

  542. Guus

    (also, minutes?)

  543. ralphm

    Guus: I'm following the left-most column of Trello

  544. ralphm

    1. Confirm minute taker

  545. ralphm

    Who (including floor) can do this?

  546. Guus

    if not anyone from the floor, I will

  547. ralphm

    Thanks GUus

  548. ralphm

    Thanks Guus

  549. ralphm

    2. Board priorities

  550. ralphm

    We still need to settle the meeting which nyco was setting up

  551. Guus

    I'm tempted to say that given our track record, that meeting that we're holding this off for isn't going to happen.

  552. Guus

    can we come to a conclusion on this without that meeting?

  553. ralphm

    I guess, but let's keep this on for one more week. Doing this with just 3/5 is not helpful

  554. Guus


  555. MattJ

    My proposal to make progress on this...

  556. MattJ

    I'd like to do another membership survey (though I know some people don't believe it holds much value)

  557. Guus

    I'm with the latter, but it doesn't hurt to have one either.

  558. MattJ

    I can draft something up, and we'll at least have something to discuss

  559. MattJ

    Right now it's such a broad open-ended topic, this "board priorities" thing really gets to me

  560. ralphm

    Yeah, I agree

  561. MattJ

    If all we need to do is agree that we want to make XMPP more popular and combat spam, let's just do it

  562. MattJ

    and remove this card

  563. Ge0rG

    what about making Jabber more popular?

  564. ralphm

    Let's not have this discussion right now.

  565. Guus

    Mattj, please go ahead. Anything to move forward.

  566. ralphm


  567. ralphm

    3. Additions to Work Teams

  568. MattJ

    Ok, I'll add it to my to-do(TM)

  569. j.r has joined

  570. Guus

    JC asked me to add those names up for a board vote

  571. ralphm

    From what I understood after the meeting last week, Winfried should have been part of the communications team. I'm +1 on adding him.

  572. Guus

    I'm very happy for anyone to contribute, and strongly believe the board should facilitate where we can, as I'm convinced that this benefits us all. My voting behavior on team membership issues is therefor "yes, unless".

  573. Guus

    Communication work team membership allows people to communicate on behalf of the XSF (by granting access to our social media accounts, and by allowing them to directly make changes to our public website).

  574. Guus

    Although he appears to be very motivated and puts in a lot of effort, I am not comfortable with Ludovic communicating on behalf of the XSF: I've experienced his style to be badgering, to the point of great annoyance, pressing non-issues, or issues that I disagree with.

  575. Guus

    I've seen, and have heard of, similar issues between him and others.

  576. Guus

    I'm therefor -1 on adding Ludovic as a member of the Communnication work team.

  577. Guus

    I have no concerns regarding Winfried's membership of the Communications work team. I'm +1 on that.

  578. ralphm

    I agree with all of that Guus.

  579. MattJ

    Likewise on both counts

  580. jonasw

    I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one.

  581. ralphm

    Ok. Motion to add Winfried carries. Motion to add Ludovic doesn't carry.

  582. ralphm

    4. SPAM SIG

  583. ralphm

    This was discussed after last weeks meeting briefly.

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  585. MattJ

    If this is an open group that essentially consists of a mailing list and MUC room, I have no objections

  586. ralphm

    I want to reiterate here that the (previous) board has voted this down, and I intend to stick by that decision until there's a better proposal.

  587. MattJ

    I think the initial request was for a closed group

  588. Guus

    If this facilitates an effort, I'm not against this.

  589. ralphm

    MattJ: right, but a SIG is more than that and I don't see why this needs to be an XSF activity.

  590. ralphm

    See also the operators mailinglist

  591. ralphm

    a SIG is open by definition

  592. Ge0rG

    the reason to make this an XSF-approved thing is to show that we are committed to fighting spam, and that we are actually doing something

  593. Guus

    I'm not on there, I think. Was there a relevant discussion, or is that an alternate venue you're referring to?

  594. Ge0rG

    I don't care much about the formal structure

  595. ralphm

    Ge0rG: until the direction of the XSF changes, we are a standards body

  596. Ge0rG

    ralphm: then it's time to change directions

  597. MattJ

    I don't see much of a difference between this and other SIGs we've formed in the past

  598. MattJ

    I'm not in favour of the spam manifesto being an XSF activity, for sure

  599. ralphm

    Ge0rG: and not everything XMPP under the sun has to be an XSF activity for work to get done. I tried explaining this on various occasions, and I don't understand why you don't get that.

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  601. ralphm

    So work on it, if there are things you can't do, propose a XEP and we'll vote on this again.

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  604. ralphm

    (a XEP for a SIG. XEPs for protocol can go directly to the Council)

  605. Ge0rG

    ralphm: while I agree that we as the XSF have very limited manpower, my hope is that at least we as the XSF have a wider outreach, so we can have more contributions.

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  607. ralphm

    Ge0rG: there's nothing the XSF does to 'widen outreach'

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  609. Ge0rG

    ralphm: you should discuss that with the comms-wg

  610. ralphm

    I suggest you get something started, tell the Comms team what you are doing and they can add a line or two in their news letter.

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  612. ralphm

    5. AOB

  613. ralphm

    Anything else?

  614. jonasw has left

  615. Guus

    the ED search and bus factor thingy?

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  617. Guus

    bus factor wise, we're waiting for Peter's contact at the bank to return, I think? I'll ask him about that

  618. ralphm


  619. Guus

    the Executive Director replacement, I still am unclear what needs to happen there.

  620. Guus

    but we should get that sorted (or removed)

  621. ralphm

    I'd like that to be part of our Priorities discussion, if we ever have one.

  622. Guus

    we're not simply asking for someone to take over from Peter?

  623. ralphm

    As was brought up briefly around the Summit, we need to know what we expect this person to do, outside of the profile that was defined long time ago.

  624. Guus

    sensible. But, perhaps take that out of context of the prio thingy - to not overload that effort?

  625. jjrh has left

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  628. goffi

    does putting the newsletter license under CC By-SA need a board vote? I've made a P.R. for that, jc is OK for it (I've asked yesterday)

  629. j.r has joined

  630. Guus

    (goffi, I don't know to be honest)

  631. jonasw

    I don’t think so, frankly.

  632. ralphm

    goffi, it probably would

  633. jonasw

    do we have something which puts all rights on work made on the website under XSF ownership?

  634. MattJ

    Does the XSF even hold the copyright?

  635. ralphm

    Let me check that.

  636. jonasw

    if not, JC probably has the permissions to put it under any license he likes

  637. ralphm

    If it is an XSF activity, yes

  638. MattJ

    He's not paid for it

  639. Zash

    Neither are XEP authors?

  640. ralphm

    I think payment is not a factor

  641. ralphm

    XEPs are explicitly attributed to the XSF

  642. goffi

    XEP authors give ownership explicitly (I've done it)

  643. ralphm

    I think going forward, it makes a lot of sense for the XSF to own the copyright to things it publishes

  644. jonasw

    defining a license for website content would be a good idea.

  645. ralphm

    I seem to remember we had this

  646. jonasw

    or rather: digging in the archives whether there actually *is* a license on website content and it just got lost in transition

  647. Guus

    that might not be the worst of ideas

  648. jonasw

    checking archive.org now

  649. ralphm

    jonasw: thanks

  650. Guus

    Shall we move that to next week then?

  651. ralphm

    Let's continue this out of band, and maybe add an item to our Trello

  652. jonasw


  653. jonasw


  654. Yagiza has joined

  655. ralphm


  656. ralphm


  657. Guus

    Shall we restore that to our current website?

  658. jonasw

    I don’t find a similar attribution in the 2011 version

  659. jonasw

    so technically the content created inbetween is probably in limbo

  660. ralphm

    It probably got lost in all the site changes

  661. Guus

    I think it's reasonable to assume that it was not intentionally dropped and replaced by <nothing>.

  662. jonasw


  663. ralphm


  664. ralphm

    I +1 your suggestion, Guus

  665. Guus

    martin (hi!), mattj?

  666. MattJ

    Yes, +1

  667. ralphm


  668. jubalh has joined

  669. ralphm

    Ok, I think that's it for today.

  670. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  671. ralphm


  672. ralphm

    7. Close

  673. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  674. Guus


  675. ralphm bangs gavel

  676. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  677. MattJ


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  693. SaltyBones

    Holger, could you unban me from the ejabberd muc? -_-

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  696. Guus considered _not_ making a reference to 'magic words' briefly, but desided against it.

  697. SaltyBones

    Holger, could you unban me from the ejabberd muc, please?

  698. SaltyBones


  699. daniel has joined

  700. intosi

    Alohomora might've worked as well. Guus was very unspecific.

  701. Guus


  702. SaltyBones

    Avada Kedavra!

  703. intosi

    Well, that wouldn't be my choice, really. You want to open a lock, not kill the admin.

  704. intosi

    Dark wizardry is frowned upon by most operators.

  705. rtq3 has left

  706. SaltyBones

    I only remember that and Lumos. :p

  707. rtq3 has joined

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  709. jonasw

    SaltyBones, Vingardio Leviosa?

  710. jonasw

    (wutschen und wedeln!)

  711. SaltyBones

    Expecto Patronum!

  712. Kev

    Our testing framework for M-Link has an expectation framework called Expecto, and the 'check everything is the way it should be and fail the test otherwise' call is ->patronum().

  713. Kev

    So many of our unit tests end with the line expecto_->patronum();

  714. intosi

    How would you expect to get marks for Charms if you can't even be bothered to use the right one if it's provided on a silver plate? ;)

  715. Ge0rG

    Kev: what's the `_` for? singleton?

  716. intosi


  717. Ge0rG

    wasn't the member `_` a prefix, typically?

  718. dwd has left

  719. Kev

    Prefixes are magic in C++, and you have to be very careful to get them right. So it's safer (and reads better) to just suffix.

  720. Ge0rG

    > Each name that begins with an underscore is reserved to the implementation for use as a name in the global namespace. Oh, didn't know *that*

  721. Ge0rG

    C++ is full of surprises, even to experienced developers

  722. SaltyBones

    I completely agree and hate it for that.

  723. jonasw

    I thought it was just _Uppercase?

  724. jonasw


  725. jonasw

    I’m using m_foo now anyways

  726. Dave Cridland has left

  727. Ge0rG

    jonasw: _Uppercase is reserved in any scope, _* only in global scope

  728. jonasw

    ah okay

  729. Ge0rG

    I'm sure this distinction is never going to bite anyone.

  730. dwd has left

  731. rion

    omg.. ~/projects/psi/git$ grep -P '\b_\S+' --include '*.cpp' -r . | wc -l 1782

  732. jonasw

    rion, foo._ would be safe IIUC

  733. Kev

    Ge0rG: I chose my words carefully :)

  734. Ge0rG

    Kev: as you always do, indeed.

  735. Kev


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  741. intosi

    Kev: working on RowanIM again?

  742. jubalh has joined

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  747. Kev

    Something like that.

  748. Kev

    Maybe we should rename Swift to Adder or something.

  749. Kev

    Until Apple then releases a new calculator or something.

  750. jjrh has left

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  755. intosi

    Sounds like a cunning plan.

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  760. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, I always use m_xyz for non-public members, too.

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  791. SaltyBones

    When discussing IDs yesterday it was a common view that servers want to pick IDs for MAM storage.

  792. SaltyBones

    I'm wondering if that flexibility is actually being used and is necessary?

  793. MattJ

    Yes, it's being used

  794. SaltyBones

    Don't all servers have to basically perform the same operations on the archive and need the same index?

  795. MattJ

    The id can help encode indexing information

  796. SaltyBones

    Is that something that could or should be standardized because all servers need it?

  797. Guus has left

  798. SaltyBones

    What kind of stuff do you encode there?

  799. MattJ

    No, it shouldn't be standardized - it's not even standardized in Prosody, because it depends what storage you are using

  800. Kev

    It should be standardised that the server chooses, if that's the question.

  801. MattJ

    Oh, right, sure. I assumed the question was "should the encoded information be standardized?"

  802. SaltyBones

    Yes, it was. :)

  803. SaltyBones

    Yes, it was (what MattJ said). :)

  804. Zash

    We have a translation layer for a legacy storage mode where you need the date and offset to identify messages

  805. SaltyBones


  806. jonasw

    https://unicode.org/reports/tr51/#Longer_Term and the XSF as a whole, regarding emoji and stickers

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  830. moparisthebest

    unicode was a mistake

  831. Zash


  832. daniel has joined

  833. Ge0rG

    unicode has failed

  834. Zash

    at what

  835. Zash


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  838. intosi

    They just have to add teletext codepoints and colour selectors, and Bob's your uncle.

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  851. moparisthebest

    that XKCD could not be more accurate

  852. SaltyBones

    MattJ, Zash: so one thing that was not completely explained yesterday is why we do mam queries with stanza-ID. Would it be so much more complicated to query by client ID?

  853. Zash

    SaltyBones: O(n)

  854. Dave Cridland has left

  855. SaltyBones

    Can't you translate the client ID into something that can be an index? If I understand the problem correctly...

  856. Zash

    There's no index

  857. dwd has left

  858. Kev

    Zash: There is an index, it's just not conventional.

  859. SaltyBones

    So what s the O(n)?

  860. lskdjf has joined

  861. Kev

    Searching the entire archive for the right id.

  862. Zash

    It avoids O(n) by being able to skip to the right day, because there's some time info embedded in the ID

  863. lskdjf has joined

  864. SaltyBones


  865. SaltyBones

    So there is no index except a rough time?

  866. Zash

    The legacy thing I mentioned doesn't have an index, just a directory tree.

  867. SaltyBones

    And then it looks for the exact stanza-ID in the neighborhood?

  868. Zash

    And it's about as old as Prosody itself, and used for MUC

  869. Zash

    Who picks the stanza id in MUCs?

  870. SaltyBones

    Is there any way for the server to check if the queries stanza-ID was good?

  871. rion has left

  872. SaltyBones


  873. SaltyBones

    I suppose you already answered that...

  874. Zash

    And who picks the stanza id on messages from 2009?

  875. SaltyBones

    Are you asking me?

  876. Zash

    I'm actually talking about the thing behind http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/

  877. SaltyBones

    Because I have no clue. ;/

  878. daniel has left

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  881. SaltyBones

    I m just wondering if we could avoid clients having to deal with stanza-IDs

  882. SaltyBones

    Maybe they could just query by timestamp

  883. SaltyBones

    I don't know. I'm just curious. ;)

  884. Guus has left

  885. Kev

    As a client author, I don't think it's worth the effort. This is not providing much value, while many other things need solving.

  886. lovetox

    SaltyBones, if there was an easy solution the people here would already have done it

  887. lovetox

    everything has pro and cons

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  894. SaltyBones

    I agree but some of those are invisible to me. ;)

  895. daniel has left

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  899. SaltyBones

    Kev: Would that hold even if you were writing one from scratch?

  900. Kev


  901. SaltyBones


  902. dwd has left

  903. SaltyBones

    Then I'll just type up a summary of this and yesterday's discussion for the mailing list.

  904. Kev

    As a server author, I also don't want to have ids that I need to index in some way being assigned to me instead of having me generate them (applies to resources as well as MAM, in fact) :)

  905. Guus has left

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  914. lovetox

    with current mam:2 the whole process is not elegant but it works

  915. lovetox

    so indeed there are other things we could spend energy on

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  919. moparisthebest

    you already do Kev , JIDs for example

  920. lskdjf has joined

  921. Kev

    Not quite the same.

  922. moparisthebest

    it's an arbitrary string you have to index and search on

  923. moparisthebest

    pretty sure it's exactly the same

  924. Kev

    I promise it's not.

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  940. jonasw

    SaltyBones, as a client author, I prefer bouncing another stanza ID around over using timestamps for querying

  941. jonasw

    timestamps are the most awful thing

  942. SaltyBones


  943. moparisthebest

    this trustico certificate business is the best entertainment I've seen for awhile

  944. dwd has left

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  947. Zash

    Anyone got any good arguments on this topic? https://mastodon.xyz/@HerraBRE/99605039095553757

  948. dwd has left

  949. SaltyBones

    Good arguments for which side? ;)

  950. Dave Cridland has left

  951. moparisthebest

    that's just dumb

  952. moparisthebest

    it's public knowledge that google etc just mines everyone's data, it's in their TOS

  953. moparisthebest

    he is saying a friend/family that hosts a server can also do that, which is true

  954. moparisthebest

    the solution is to use a protocol that lets you hide as much data as possible, so you can trust anyone else as little as possible

  955. jjrh

    Isn't the argument more that your friends/family are more likely to violate your privacy so being a needle in a haystack (aka using gmail vs a email hosting a family/friend setup and maintains) you probably are less likely to have your privacy violated

  956. Zash has left

  957. SaltyBones

    Yes, and that the data mining by Google is less harmful than snooping spouses. At least short term that s probably true

  958. Dave Cridland has left

  959. SaltyBones

    That's btw why I like e2e. I don't have access anymore. Awesome!

  960. Yagiza has left

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  963. jonasw

    yeah, great :)

  964. Dave Cridland has left

  965. jjrh

    It's probably true that the negative consequences of someone snooping are far more likely to occur with friends/family. Google might read my email and find out i'm cheating on my wife but all they care about is knowing i'm a good candidate to advertise 2 star motels.

  966. SaltyBones

    jjrh: That is a wonderful example!

  967. moparisthebest

    jjrh, except it's public knowledge google violates *everyones* privacy all the time as a matter of business

  968. Zash


  969. moparisthebest

    so your likliehood of getting privacy violated on google is 100%

  970. andy has left

  971. moparisthebest

    seems like it could be less than 100% elsewhere...

  972. jjrh

    That's why I said the negative consequences of that.

  973. moparisthebest

    yea so if you are cheating on your spouse, you probably shouldn't use a server your spouse has access to

  974. moparisthebest

    but do we have to spell out obvious things?

  975. andy has joined

  976. Zash

    Other than E2EE, is there anything that can be done in a world of federated friends&family servers wrt incentives for doing the right thing?

  977. jjrh

    E2EE? end to end encryption?

  978. Zash


  979. SaltyBones

    I think the problem is backwards. :)

  980. SaltyBones

    We are using F&F because we trust these people more than Google.

  981. Dave Cridland has left

  982. jonasw

    this is a frustrating argument

  983. jonasw

    this is a frustrating evening

  984. moparisthebest

    well e2e but there is also things we can do to hide metadata

  985. Zash

    jonasw: Have you caught some common cold variant too?

  986. moparisthebest

    that I haven't proposed yet but might get around to some day :P

  987. SaltyBones

    jonasw: yoga?

  988. jonasw

    Zash, nah, just Qt

  989. SaltyBones


  990. jonasw

    (Qt (a) doesn’t support libnotify for whatever f*ing reason there might be and (b) does awful and illogical things to my icons when shoing them in the systray)

  991. daniel has joined

  992. jjrh

    moparisthebest, I think it's more the grey area where you're not doing something obviously wrong but for various reasons may not want your wife to know.

  993. Dave Cridland has left

  994. moparisthebest

    then you shouldn't use a server ran by your wife

  995. moparisthebest

    that's simple common sense

  996. SaltyBones

    The point is, trust relationships change but sometimes you notice too late.

  997. SaltyBones

    However, very often they don't.

  998. moparisthebest

    besides if you live with a server admin and use their server

  999. moparisthebest

    and switch to using google, they can also just mitm you or hack your computer

  1000. moparisthebest

    so what's the point here

  1001. Zash

    Having the server admin within a stones throw could serve as an incentive... :)

  1002. SaltyBones

    So, I run my server with a friend who lives in a different country. Your argument simply does not apply.

  1003. jonasw

    moparisthebest, different levels of criminal energy needed

  1004. SaltyBones

    jonasw: maybe, all those things are pretty easy once you go down that road ;)

  1005. jjrh

    Probably a more likely scenario is your wifes aunt runs a email server and snoops most likely unintentionally. The point is more that just because someone at google is - as you said constantly violating your privacy - the likely hood of a - at least immediate - negative impact is far lower

  1006. jonasw

    setting up a sophisticated MitM proxy, installing a rogue CA certificate and ensuring that it can’t be reasonably circumvented requires much more criminal energy compared to grep -Rni "interesting thing" /var/lib/prosody/

  1007. marmistrz has joined

  1008. SaltyBones

    jonasw: just installing $snooping_app is also pretty trivial.

  1009. moparisthebest

    I mean I run a server for my family that lives in this house, plus my mom who doesn't

  1010. moparisthebest

    but I also handle all the stuff on my mom's computer too

  1011. moparisthebest

    whether I snoop on the server is irrelevent

  1012. daniel has joined

  1013. jonasw

    also fun fact: i recently heard a fun story from employees at a *large* international payment processor. apparantly it’s common to find some amusement in the transaction comments, especially since some .. uhm .. adult recreational toy? stores appear to put your whole order list in there :)

  1014. Dave Cridland has left

  1015. SaltyBones

    jjrh: What bothers me about this is that long term all this data collection about us might have negative consequences. And then it will be very hard to fix. :)

  1016. moparisthebest

    if this is a problem for you the solution is e2e not switch to google

  1017. moparisthebest

    that's insane

  1018. tim@boese-ban.de has joined

  1019. moparisthebest

    SaltyBones, yea it's just harmless data until it gets you and generations of your descendents murdered https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide

  1020. jonasw

    jjrh, precisely the reason why I hate to debug email issues. it often involves looking at logs or data i don’t even want to see.

  1021. intosi has left

  1022. jjrh

    I'm by no means saying it's better to use google/be a needle in a haystack. Just that the arguement holds some validity that it's probably true privacy violations with negative impacts are more likely from friends and family.

  1023. moparisthebest

    well that entirely depends on the specific situation you are in though

  1024. Guus has left

  1025. moparisthebest

    cheating on your wife - true

  1026. moparisthebest

    planning to blow up a power plant - false

  1027. Kev has left

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  1030. jjrh

    That's true and really we are basing the idea it's more likely off the assumption the majority of murders/sexual abuse are from friends and family equates to privacy

  1031. Dave Cridland has left

  1032. jjrh

    Which sounds reasonable but I don't actually know if that's true or not.

  1033. Maranda has joined

  1034. moparisthebest

    if your family is the murdering/abusive type then maybe consider using a different provider

  1035. moparisthebest


  1036. jonasw

    it’s not always as simple as that, I bet

  1037. Zash

    It's never easy

  1038. jonasw

    relationships are much more tricky than "don’t do that"

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  1044. jjrh

    I tend to want to implicitly trust someone. If I can't trust that you won't ignore the email client I left open when you're checking something unrelated why would I associate with you?

  1045. andy has left

  1046. Zash

    Society is built on lots and lots of implicit trust in others.

  1047. Guus has left

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  1049. Zash

    Crypto is actually kinda weird in that regard

  1050. Dave Cridland has left

  1051. jjrh

    Not really - if we could actually trust everyone no one would think about crypto

  1052. Dave Cridland has left

  1053. Zash

    I mean, a locked door isn't really all that secure, but it's a social signal and you trust most people to respect that most of the time.

  1054. Zash


  1055. Zash


  1056. jjrh

    I mean if no one stole anything we wouldn't lock doors

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  1064. moparisthebest

    I know people who still don't

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  1066. moparisthebest

    I think that's a little dumb, but it's never been a problem yet...

  1067. Zash

    The lock itself is only a part of why.

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  1070. Zash

    Morality, the justice system and insurance

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  1072. Zash

    The locks themselves just need to be enough of a road block that someone who gets past it clearly demonstrated intent

  1073. moparisthebest

    well there are people that would take something if it wasn't locked, but would never break a lock

  1074. moparisthebest

    that saying a lock keeps an honest man honest or something

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  1119. Seve

    -w can

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  1143. Ge0rG

    E2EE won't solve the abusive admin problem, because the admin will just look for your metadata

  1144. moparisthebest

    again totally depends on what you expect to remain private

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  1148. moparisthebest

    and I think we can do more to minimize metadata in xmpp, in combination with e2e

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  1150. Zash

    Which point on the security vs convenience scale do you want?

  1151. moparisthebest

    it's nice to be able to choose

  1152. jonasw


  1153. Zash

    Choice is hard

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  1155. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: most people can't choose what they want, not even people from this MUC.

  1156. moparisthebest

    have you seen that chat system someone made that requires 3 computers at each end that communicate over 1-way optical links ?

  1157. jonasw


  1158. moparisthebest

    I'm trying to find it but failing...

  1159. moparisthebest

    anyway, that's the 'secure' end of the scale

  1160. Zash

    Let's have that quantum entanglement thing, that'll probably solve all problems!

  1161. jonasw

    I need a quantum bingo

  1162. jjrh

    It's more what the default should be.

  1163. jjrh

    majority of users will use what's default

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  1169. moparisthebest

    found it https://github.com/maqp/tfc/

  1170. moparisthebest

    Tinfoil Chat

  1171. Zash

    Send a physical letter!

  1172. moparisthebest

    the diagrams and entire system really is amazing

  1173. Zash

    It's got way better legal protections afaik

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  1231. jjrh

    Would be better with photocell and led's. I don't trust optocouplers black box.

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  1237. moparisthebest

    yea I think he said the original design had that

  1238. moparisthebest

    or that he based it off that or something

  1239. moparisthebest

    you might as well go all the way if you are going this far I think

  1240. jjrh


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