Kev8AM and I already won the 'most pointless mail to standards@ of the day' award.
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jonaswgreat, poezio is massively confused by this MUC. Trying to answer nontheless: how do you end up with 2046 octets? the "@" surely is needed?
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KevNope.
KevWhat do you need the @ for?
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jonaswKev, to separate localpart and domain?
KevWhy do you need to do that?
Kev(I'm not being dense, you'll get there in a moment :))
jonaswoh my god, are you suggesting to put a 1023-octet localpart and a 1023-octet domainpart into the thing without separation because it can be inferred by the length and absence of an "@" where the separation happen??
jonaswoh my god, are you suggesting to put a 1023-octet localpart and a 1023-octet domainpart into the thing without separation because it can be inferred by the length and absence of an "@" where the separation happens?
Kev:)
jonaswoh my god
Kev:)
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jonaswyou can’t do that to me
jonaswgood morning Kev, you already made my day :-)
KevNo, I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but it's 8AM and I felt the world deserved to suffer.
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jonaswI am amused at this point :)
jonaswI’m sorry that you feel the need to make the world suffer, wanna talk about it? :)
jonasw(this idea is so insane and I can, in a very *very* weird way relate to it, doing embedded work from time to time)
jonasw(it keeps making me laugh)
jonasw(if that helps you in any way; if you genuinely want suffering, I’m double-sorry now)
KevNo, not really.
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Ge0rGThis only works if your upstream implementation actually enforces the 1023 octet limits
Ge0rGBut it reminds me of the double-linked-list-with-only-one-pointer trick.
jonaswI don’t want to know.
jonasw(although I’m guilty of using Duff’s-device-coroutines)
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flowhmm? and where do you get the length from? Don't you need to store it instead of the separation char?
jonaswflow, the length is in the data field itself; XML delimits it for you
jonasw(and databases would too)
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Ge0rGWe were talking about sponsoring individual XMPP developers recently, and maybe this one might work out for some: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/
jonaswwhat’s the difference to patreon and liberapay?
jonasw> We offer Paypal and Stripe as payout options.
jonaswmeh
Ge0rGjonasw: better branding.
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Ge0rGStripe does IBAN payouts, though
jonaswI signed up for liberapay and just realized that they didn’t ask me for a password yet.
jonaswthat’s smooth onbording I’ll say
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Ge0rG> Unlike other non-profit platforms, Liberapay is neutral. You can create an account without having to wait for us to approve it, and we won't kick you out unless you break the law or the terms of service.
Heh. But I kind of like the overall thing
jonasw"but"?
Ge0rGI don't know about them, but most payment processors have very vague ToS, so you'll end up kicked anyway
mathieuijonasw, that’s kind of similar to the policy of the "kickstarter for fascists" started by far-right groups
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danielmathieui: wasn't that more like patreon? Because patreon kicked Lauren southern?
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TobiasSo seems like the MLS WG is pretty limited in their planned supported scenarios.
Dave CridlandThat's a very well-written email to kick things off.
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flowDave Cridland, "within blue light"?
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flowhmm, possibly rescue services and such
Dave Cridlandflow, Right, sorry, a UK term. People who drive vehicles with blue lights on top - so fire/police/ambulance.
Dave CridlandBut also coastguard, mountain rescue, cave rescue, and all sorts. Weird sector, because some of it is Government funded and some is volunteer.
Guusplots to replace the gavel with a rubber one for next time.
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ralphmHi!
ralphmWho do we have?
MattJMe
GuusI
ralphmMartin and nyco?
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ralphmGuess not.
ralphmAny additions to the agenda?
GuusI've added commteam membership requests to Trello earlier
Guus(also, minutes?)
ralphmGuus: I'm following the left-most column of Trello
ralphm1. Confirm minute taker
ralphmWho (including floor) can do this?
Guusif not anyone from the floor, I will
ralphmThanks GUus
ralphmThanks Guus
ralphm2. Board priorities
ralphmWe still need to settle the meeting which nyco was setting up
GuusI'm tempted to say that given our track record, that meeting that we're holding this off for isn't going to happen.
Guuscan we come to a conclusion on this without that meeting?
ralphmI guess, but let's keep this on for one more week. Doing this with just 3/5 is not helpful
Guusagreed.
MattJMy proposal to make progress on this...
MattJI'd like to do another membership survey (though I know some people don't believe it holds much value)
GuusI'm with the latter, but it doesn't hurt to have one either.
MattJI can draft something up, and we'll at least have something to discuss
MattJRight now it's such a broad open-ended topic, this "board priorities" thing really gets to me
ralphmYeah, I agree
MattJIf all we need to do is agree that we want to make XMPP more popular and combat spam, let's just do it
MattJand remove this card
Ge0rGwhat about making Jabber more popular?
ralphmLet's not have this discussion right now.
GuusMattj, please go ahead. Anything to move forward.
ralphmYep
ralphm3. Additions to Work Teams
MattJOk, I'll add it to my to-do(TM)
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GuusJC asked me to add those names up for a board vote
ralphmFrom what I understood after the meeting last week, Winfried should have been part of the communications team. I'm +1 on adding him.
GuusI'm very happy for anyone to contribute, and strongly believe the board should facilitate where we can, as I'm convinced that this benefits us all. My voting behavior on team membership issues is therefor "yes, unless".
GuusCommunication work team membership allows people to communicate on behalf of the XSF (by granting access to our social media accounts, and by allowing them to directly make changes to our public website).
GuusAlthough he appears to be very motivated and puts in a lot of effort, I am not comfortable with Ludovic communicating on behalf of the XSF: I've experienced his style to be badgering, to the point of great annoyance, pressing non-issues, or issues that I disagree with.
GuusI've seen, and have heard of, similar issues between him and others.
GuusI'm therefor -1 on adding Ludovic as a member of the Communnication work team.
GuusI have no concerns regarding Winfried's membership of the Communications work team. I'm +1 on that.
ralphmI agree with all of that Guus.
MattJLikewise on both counts
jonaswI’m glad to see that I’m not the only one.
ralphmOk. Motion to add Winfried carries. Motion to add Ludovic doesn't carry.
ralphm4. SPAM SIG
ralphmThis was discussed after last weeks meeting briefly.
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MattJIf this is an open group that essentially consists of a mailing list and MUC room, I have no objections
ralphmI want to reiterate here that the (previous) board has voted this down, and I intend to stick by that decision until there's a better proposal.
MattJI think the initial request was for a closed group
GuusIf this facilitates an effort, I'm not against this.
ralphmMattJ: right, but a SIG is more than that and I don't see why this needs to be an XSF activity.
ralphmSee also the operators mailinglist
ralphma SIG is open by definition
Ge0rGthe reason to make this an XSF-approved thing is to show that we are committed to fighting spam, and that we are actually doing something
GuusI'm not on there, I think. Was there a relevant discussion, or is that an alternate venue you're referring to?
Ge0rGI don't care much about the formal structure
ralphmGe0rG: until the direction of the XSF changes, we are a standards body
Ge0rGralphm: then it's time to change directions
MattJI don't see much of a difference between this and other SIGs we've formed in the past
MattJI'm not in favour of the spam manifesto being an XSF activity, for sure
ralphmGe0rG: and not everything XMPP under the sun has to be an XSF activity for work to get done. I tried explaining this on various occasions, and I don't understand why you don't get that.
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ralphmSo work on it, if there are things you can't do, propose a XEP and we'll vote on this again.
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ralphm(a XEP for a SIG. XEPs for protocol can go directly to the Council)
Ge0rGralphm: while I agree that we as the XSF have very limited manpower, my hope is that at least we as the XSF have a wider outreach, so we can have more contributions.
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ralphmGe0rG: there's nothing the XSF does to 'widen outreach'
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Ge0rGralphm: you should discuss that with the comms-wg
ralphmI suggest you get something started, tell the Comms team what you are doing and they can add a line or two in their news letter.
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ralphm5. AOB
ralphmAnything else?
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Guusthe ED search and bus factor thingy?
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Guusbus factor wise, we're waiting for Peter's contact at the bank to return, I think? I'll ask him about that
ralphmthanks
Guusthe Executive Director replacement, I still am unclear what needs to happen there.
Guusbut we should get that sorted (or removed)
ralphmI'd like that to be part of our Priorities discussion, if we ever have one.
Guuswe're not simply asking for someone to take over from Peter?
ralphmAs was brought up briefly around the Summit, we need to know what we expect this person to do, outside of the profile that was defined long time ago.
Guussensible. But, perhaps take that out of context of the prio thingy - to not overload that effort?
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goffidoes putting the newsletter license under CC By-SA need a board vote? I've made a P.R. for that, jc is OK for it (I've asked yesterday)
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Guus(goffi, I don't know to be honest)
jonaswI don’t think so, frankly.
ralphmgoffi, it probably would
jonaswdo we have something which puts all rights on work made on the website under XSF ownership?
MattJDoes the XSF even hold the copyright?
ralphmLet me check that.
jonaswif not, JC probably has the permissions to put it under any license he likes
ralphmIf it is an XSF activity, yes
MattJHe's not paid for it
ZashNeither are XEP authors?
ralphmI think payment is not a factor
ralphmXEPs are explicitly attributed to the XSF
goffiXEP authors give ownership explicitly (I've done it)
ralphmI think going forward, it makes a lot of sense for the XSF to own the copyright to things it publishes
jonaswdefining a license for website content would be a good idea.
ralphmI seem to remember we had this
jonaswor rather: digging in the archives whether there actually *is* a license on website content and it just got lost in transition
Guusthat might not be the worst of ideas
jonaswchecking archive.org now
ralphmjonasw: thanks
GuusShall we move that to next week then?
ralphmLet's continue this out of band, and maybe add an item to our Trello
SaltyBonesHolger, could you unban me from the ejabberd muc? -_-
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Guusconsidered _not_ making a reference to 'magic words' briefly, but desided against it.
SaltyBonesHolger, could you unban me from the ejabberd muc, please?
SaltyBones:)
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intosiAlohomora might've worked as well. Guus was very unspecific.
Guus:)
SaltyBonesAvada Kedavra!
intosiWell, that wouldn't be my choice, really. You want to open a lock, not kill the admin.
intosiDark wizardry is frowned upon by most operators.
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SaltyBonesI only remember that and Lumos. :p
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jonaswSaltyBones, Vingardio Leviosa?
jonasw(wutschen und wedeln!)
SaltyBonesExpecto Patronum!
KevOur testing framework for M-Link has an expectation framework called Expecto, and the 'check everything is the way it should be and fail the test otherwise' call is ->patronum().
KevSo many of our unit tests end with the line
expecto_->patronum();
intosiHow would you expect to get marks for Charms if you can't even be bothered to use the right one if it's provided on a silver plate? ;)
Ge0rGKev: what's the `_` for? singleton?
intosimember
Ge0rGwasn't the member `_` a prefix, typically?
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KevPrefixes are magic in C++, and you have to be very careful to get them right. So it's safer (and reads better) to just suffix.
Ge0rG> Each name that begins with an underscore is reserved to the implementation for use as a name in the global namespace.
Oh, didn't know *that*
Ge0rGC++ is full of surprises, even to experienced developers
SaltyBonesI completely agree and hate it for that.
jonaswI thought it was just _Uppercase?
jonaswfun
jonaswI’m using m_foo now anyways
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Ge0rGjonasw: _Uppercase is reserved in any scope, _* only in global scope
jonaswah okay
Ge0rGI'm sure this distinction is never going to bite anyone.
KevMaybe we should rename Swift to Adder or something.
KevUntil Apple then releases a new calculator or something.
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intosiSounds like a cunning plan.
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Dave Cridlandjonasw, I always use m_xyz for non-public members, too.
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SaltyBonesWhen discussing IDs yesterday it was a common view that servers want to pick IDs for MAM storage.
SaltyBonesI'm wondering if that flexibility is actually being used and is necessary?
MattJYes, it's being used
SaltyBonesDon't all servers have to basically perform the same operations on the archive and need the same index?
MattJThe id can help encode indexing information
SaltyBonesIs that something that could or should be standardized because all servers need it?
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SaltyBonesWhat kind of stuff do you encode there?
MattJNo, it shouldn't be standardized - it's not even standardized in Prosody, because it depends what storage you are using
KevIt should be standardised that the server chooses, if that's the question.
MattJOh, right, sure. I assumed the question was "should the encoded information be standardized?"
SaltyBonesYes, it was. :)
SaltyBonesYes, it was (what MattJ said). :)
ZashWe have a translation layer for a legacy storage mode where you need the date and offset to identify messages
SaltyBonesO_o
jonaswhttps://unicode.org/reports/tr51/#Longer_Term and the XSF as a whole, regarding emoji and stickers
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moparisthebestunicode was a mistake
Zashwat
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Ge0rGunicode has failed
Zashat what
Zashhttps://xkcd.com/1953/
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intosiThey just have to add teletext codepoints and colour selectors, and Bob's your uncle.
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moparisthebestthat XKCD could not be more accurate
SaltyBonesMattJ, Zash: so one thing that was not completely explained yesterday is why we do mam queries with stanza-ID. Would it be so much more complicated to query by client ID?
ZashSaltyBones: O(n)
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SaltyBonesCan't you translate the client ID into something that can be an index? If I understand the problem correctly...
ZashThere's no index
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KevZash: There is an index, it's just not conventional.
SaltyBonesSo what s the O(n)?
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KevSearching the entire archive for the right id.
ZashIt avoids O(n) by being able to skip to the right day, because there's some time info embedded in the ID
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SaltyBonesInteresting...
SaltyBonesSo there is no index except a rough time?
ZashThe legacy thing I mentioned doesn't have an index, just a directory tree.
SaltyBonesAnd then it looks for the exact stanza-ID in the neighborhood?
ZashAnd it's about as old as Prosody itself, and used for MUC
ZashWho picks the stanza id in MUCs?
SaltyBonesIs there any way for the server to check if the queries stanza-ID was good?
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SaltyBones(efficiently)
SaltyBonesI suppose you already answered that...
ZashAnd who picks the stanza id on messages from 2009?
SaltyBonesAre you asking me?
ZashI'm actually talking about the thing behind http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/
SaltyBonesBecause I have no clue. ;/
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SaltyBonesI m just wondering if we could avoid clients having to deal with stanza-IDs
SaltyBonesMaybe they could just query by timestamp
SaltyBonesI don't know. I'm just curious. ;)
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KevAs a client author, I don't think it's worth the effort. This is not providing much value, while many other things need solving.
lovetoxSaltyBones, if there was an easy solution the people here would already have done it
lovetoxeverything has pro and cons
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SaltyBonesI agree but some of those are invisible to me. ;)
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SaltyBonesKev: Would that hold even if you were writing one from scratch?
KevYes.
SaltyBonesOk
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SaltyBonesThen I'll just type up a summary of this and yesterday's discussion for the mailing list.
KevAs a server author, I also don't want to have ids that I need to index in some way being assigned to me instead of having me generate them (applies to resources as well as MAM, in fact) :)
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lovetoxwith current mam:2 the whole process is not elegant but it works
lovetoxso indeed there are other things we could spend energy on
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moparisthebestyou already do Kev , JIDs for example
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KevNot quite the same.
moparisthebestit's an arbitrary string you have to index and search on
moparisthebestpretty sure it's exactly the same
KevI promise it's not.
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jonaswSaltyBones, as a client author, I prefer bouncing another stanza ID around over using timestamps for querying
jonaswtimestamps are the most awful thing
SaltyBones:)
moparisthebestthis trustico certificate business is the best entertainment I've seen for awhile
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ZashAnyone got any good arguments on this topic? https://mastodon.xyz/@HerraBRE/99605039095553757
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SaltyBonesGood arguments for which side? ;)
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moparisthebestthat's just dumb
moparisthebestit's public knowledge that google etc just mines everyone's data, it's in their TOS
moparisthebesthe is saying a friend/family that hosts a server can also do that, which is true
moparisthebestthe solution is to use a protocol that lets you hide as much data as possible, so you can trust anyone else as little as possible
jjrhIsn't the argument more that your friends/family are more likely to violate your privacy so being a needle in a haystack (aka using gmail vs a email hosting a family/friend setup and maintains) you probably are less likely to have your privacy violated
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SaltyBonesYes, and that the data mining by Google is less harmful than snooping spouses. At least short term that s probably true
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SaltyBonesThat's btw why I like e2e. I don't have access anymore. Awesome!
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jonaswyeah, great :)
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jjrhIt's probably true that the negative consequences of someone snooping are far more likely to occur with friends/family. Google might read my email and find out i'm cheating on my wife but all they care about is knowing i'm a good candidate to advertise 2 star motels.
SaltyBonesjjrh: That is a wonderful example!
moparisthebestjjrh, except it's public knowledge google violates *everyones* privacy all the time as a matter of business
ZashIncentives
moparisthebestso your likliehood of getting privacy violated on google is 100%
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moparisthebestseems like it could be less than 100% elsewhere...
jjrhThat's why I said the negative consequences of that.
moparisthebestyea so if you are cheating on your spouse, you probably shouldn't use a server your spouse has access to
moparisthebestbut do we have to spell out obvious things?
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ZashOther than E2EE, is there anything that can be done in a world of federated friends&family servers wrt incentives for doing the right thing?
jjrhE2EE? end to end encryption?
ZashY
SaltyBonesI think the problem is backwards. :)
SaltyBonesWe are using F&F because we trust these people more than Google.
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jonaswthis is a frustrating argument
jonaswthis is a frustrating evening
moparisthebestwell e2e but there is also things we can do to hide metadata
Zashjonasw: Have you caught some common cold variant too?
moparisthebestthat I haven't proposed yet but might get around to some day :P
SaltyBonesjonasw: yoga?
jonaswZash, nah, just Qt
SaltyBonesAh
jonasw(Qt (a) doesn’t support libnotify for whatever f*ing reason there might be and (b) does awful and illogical things to my icons when shoing them in the systray)
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jjrhmoparisthebest, I think it's more the grey area where you're not doing something obviously wrong but for various reasons may not want your wife to know.
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moparisthebestthen you shouldn't use a server ran by your wife
moparisthebestthat's simple common sense
SaltyBonesThe point is, trust relationships change but sometimes you notice too late.
SaltyBonesHowever, very often they don't.
moparisthebestbesides if you live with a server admin and use their server
moparisthebestand switch to using google, they can also just mitm you or hack your computer
moparisthebestso what's the point here
ZashHaving the server admin within a stones throw could serve as an incentive... :)
SaltyBonesSo, I run my server with a friend who lives in a different country. Your argument simply does not apply.
jonaswmoparisthebest, different levels of criminal energy needed
SaltyBonesjonasw: maybe, all those things are pretty easy once you go down that road ;)
jjrhProbably a more likely scenario is your wifes aunt runs a email server and snoops most likely unintentionally. The point is more that just because someone at google is - as you said constantly violating your privacy - the likely hood of a - at least immediate - negative impact is far lower
jonaswsetting up a sophisticated MitM proxy, installing a rogue CA certificate and ensuring that it can’t be reasonably circumvented requires much more criminal energy compared to grep -Rni "interesting thing" /var/lib/prosody/
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SaltyBonesjonasw: just installing $snooping_app is also pretty trivial.
moparisthebestI mean I run a server for my family that lives in this house, plus my mom who doesn't
moparisthebestbut I also handle all the stuff on my mom's computer too
moparisthebestwhether I snoop on the server is irrelevent
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jonaswalso fun fact: i recently heard a fun story from employees at a *large* international payment processor. apparantly it’s common to find some amusement in the transaction comments, especially since some .. uhm .. adult recreational toy? stores appear to put your whole order list in there :)
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SaltyBonesjjrh: What bothers me about this is that long term all this data collection about us might have negative consequences. And then it will be very hard to fix. :)
moparisthebestif this is a problem for you the solution is e2e not switch to google
moparisthebestthat's insane
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moparisthebestSaltyBones, yea it's just harmless data until it gets you and generations of your descendents murdered https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide
jonaswjjrh, precisely the reason why I hate to debug email issues. it often involves looking at logs or data i don’t even want to see.
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jjrhI'm by no means saying it's better to use google/be a needle in a haystack. Just that the arguement holds some validity that it's probably true privacy violations with negative impacts are more likely from friends and family.
moparisthebestwell that entirely depends on the specific situation you are in though
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moparisthebestcheating on your wife - true
moparisthebestplanning to blow up a power plant - false
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jjrhThat's true and really we are basing the idea it's more likely off the assumption the majority of murders/sexual abuse are from friends and family equates to privacy
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jjrhWhich sounds reasonable but I don't actually know if that's true or not.
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moparisthebestif your family is the murdering/abusive type then maybe consider using a different provider
moparisthebestOR MAYBE MOVE AWAY OR SOMETHING MORE SENSIBLE THAN CONSIDERING CHAT PROVIDERS
jonaswit’s not always as simple as that, I bet
ZashIt's never easy
jonaswrelationships are much more tricky than "don’t do that"
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jjrhI tend to want to implicitly trust someone. If I can't trust that you won't ignore the email client I left open when you're checking something unrelated why would I associate with you?
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ZashSociety is built on lots and lots of implicit trust in others.
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ZashCrypto is actually kinda weird in that regard
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jjrhNot really - if we could actually trust everyone no one would think about crypto
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ZashI mean, a locked door isn't really all that secure, but it's a social signal and you trust most people to respect that most of the time.
Zash.
ZashNet-hickup
jjrhI mean if no one stole anything we wouldn't lock doors
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moparisthebestI know people who still don't
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moparisthebestI think that's a little dumb, but it's never been a problem yet...
ZashThe lock itself is only a part of why.
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ZashMorality, the justice system and insurance
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ZashThe locks themselves just need to be enough of a road block that someone who gets past it clearly demonstrated intent
moparisthebestwell there are people that would take something if it wasn't locked, but would never break a lock
moparisthebestthat saying a lock keeps an honest man honest or something
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jjrhhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLjifumRk3Q
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Seve-w can
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Ge0rGE2EE won't solve the abusive admin problem, because the admin will just look for your metadata
moparisthebestagain totally depends on what you expect to remain private
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moparisthebestand I think we can do more to minimize metadata in xmpp, in combination with e2e
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ZashWhich point on the security vs convenience scale do you want?
moparisthebestit's nice to be able to choose
jonaswnah
ZashChoice is hard
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Ge0rGmoparisthebest: most people can't choose what they want, not even people from this MUC.
moparisthebesthave you seen that chat system someone made that requires 3 computers at each end that communicate over 1-way optical links ?
jonaswkthxno
moparisthebestI'm trying to find it but failing...
moparisthebestanyway, that's the 'secure' end of the scale
ZashLet's have that quantum entanglement thing, that'll probably solve all problems!
jonaswI need a quantum bingo
jjrhIt's more what the default should be.
jjrhmajority of users will use what's default
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moparisthebestfound it https://github.com/maqp/tfc/
moparisthebestTinfoil Chat
ZashSend a physical letter!
moparisthebestthe diagrams and entire system really is amazing
ZashIt's got way better legal protections afaik
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jjrhWould be better with photocell and led's. I don't trust optocouplers black box.
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moparisthebestyea I think he said the original design had that
moparisthebestor that he based it off that or something
moparisthebestyou might as well go all the way if you are going this far I think
XSF Discussion - 2018-03-01