XSF Discussion - 2018-03-04

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  27. SaltyBones wait icq is still useable?
  28. Zash Wait Telegram does everything right?
  29. Zash Should I even bother reading the rest?
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  215. flow jonasw, after re-reading xep390 I wonder if the ASCII separators are valid in the separated strings itself. I know it likely qualifies as nit, but if they are valid then couldn't one could generate indistinguishable feature sets?
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  220. daniel flow: they are forbidden in xml if that answers the question
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  223. flow daniel, probably does, thanks
  224. flow although https://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#NT-Char only discourages those
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  228. daniel OK let me rephrase. It was the intention of the xep to use something that is forbidden in xml or xmpp (can remember which). I didn't actually check that myself. Maybe jonasw messed up 😀
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  230. flow Na, it's probably a XML 1.0 vs 1.1 thingy
  231. flow in 1.1 the separators appear to be valid but discouraged, and in 1.0 they are invalid
  232. flow fun
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  248. lovetox why do we have that in 0313
  249. lovetox These IDs are strings that servers may construct in any manner, and clients must treat as opaque strings (e.g. there is no requirement for them to be numeric, sequenced or GUIDs).
  250. lovetox is it not the most natural thing for a database to have a numeric index
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  252. SaltyBones lovetox, might be since you have to query for timestamp and interface with different DBs it might look different
  253. lovetox SaltyBones, 1. you dont have to query with a timestamp
  254. lovetox 2. this has nothing to do with why it would be some bad constraint for the server to have a numeric index as ID
  255. lovetox i bet every server has
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  257. SaltyBones lovetox, http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-03-01/ 16:50
  258. SaltyBones lovetox, according to MattJ Prosody alone uses multiple formats.
  259. lovetox i know that servers use different formats, its just not clear why
  260. lovetox there is no faster search in an archive as with a numeric index
  261. lovetox also i see no need to encode other informations into the index if i have a row with columns that can hold these information
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  271. lovetox as i see it using a numeric sequential index as id, would open up more possibilites with MAM, and i dont see the downside for the server
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  274. SaltyBones Which possibilities
  275. lovetox it currently makes no sense to request a certain id from an archive
  276. lovetox because you dont know where to place it
  277. lovetox because there is no order information in the ID
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  282. Ge0rG lovetox: it makes sense for ranged requests. Give me the first 50 messages after X. Then you'll have a new last ID of Y, and ask for the next 50 after Y
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  284. lovetox thats how we use MAM now yes
  285. lovetox this would not change
  286. lovetox it doesnt depend on the ID beeing numeric or not, this works with any kind of ID
  287. lovetox and with numeric i mean sequenced
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  297. Ge0rG lovetox: do you see any benefit in enforcing a certain implementation optimization into the XEP?
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  304. jonasw flow, all XML parsers I tried rejected them even in entity form
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  306. jonasw so it would at least be massively unsafe to use them in XMPP and get you disconnected very likely
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  334. flow yep, because they are disallowed in XML 1.0 (but not 1.1)
  335. flow jonasw ^
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  339. jonasw flow, yeah...
  340. jonasw RFC 6120 depends on XML 1.0 though
  341. flow I wonder if xep30 should specify string preperation for the various values
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  343. flow jonasw, I'd love to add some rationale to xep390 explaining the situation. What do you think?
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  345. jonasw flow, like this? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0390.html#security-separators
  346. jonasw one could add a mention that RFC 6120 bases on XML 1.0 and not 1.1
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  420. marc jonasw, what about merging my PRs for 401?
  421. jonasw can do that later today I guess
  422. jonasw remind me tonight maybe
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  425. marc okay
  426. marc At least Ge0rG and Kev have no objections anymore :)
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  531. moparisthebest Haha looking for backup solution and see jonasw commenting, do you still use Borg? :)
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  533. jonasw moparisthebest, yes
  534. moparisthebest Btrfs send/receive solves all my problems except on this one machine that is ext4 :( Borg looks like a good candidate though
  535. flow is a happy borg user too
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  537. Ge0rG moparisthebest: btrfs will solve all your problems by corrupting your data and laughing in your face.
  538. jonasw hah
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  540. moparisthebest Ge0rG: my years of using it everywhere say otherwise, so far I've had corrupt (restore from backup) ext4 twice and only partially broken (still readable) btrfs once
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  546. moparisthebest All those failures happened on a machine with a bad PSU that caused them btw
  547. Ge0rG moparisthebest: btrfs has some nice checksumming features, but they tend to fail on EMEM and have a huge scary warning instead of just fixing their RAID: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID56
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  549. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks for #585
  550. marc jonasw, thanks for merging
  551. moparisthebest Oh yea 5/6 has never been useable, 0/1/10 has been solid for years though
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  553. Ge0rG moparisthebest: not if you want to have 16TB of data on a 2GB RAM machine.
  554. moparisthebest I have a 32tb array on a 16gb machine and it uses hardly any ram
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  556. moparisthebest I can't imagine running a server with 2gb ram
  557. Zash All my servers have 2GB RAM
  558. SamWhited Most of my servers have 1 GB of ram…
  559. moparisthebest Giant storage servers?
  560. SamWhited No, I don't remember how much is in my big storage server. It's probably 2 or 4.
  561. moparisthebest I mean if you are saying btrfs uses more memory then ext4 then sure, Linux uses more memory than an Arduino too, it's got a few more features though
  562. SamWhited I also have never had a problem with memory due to ZFS (which is broadly similar and people use the same complaint about it), so I dispute both of these arguments (that 16 gigs of ram can be expected, but also that the filesystem uses up too much ram)
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  566. moparisthebest Yea I agree I don't think btrfs uses much ram
  567. Ge0rG SamWhited: the usual ZFS tutorials all begin with a huge red warning that your data is already as good as gone if you don't have 16GB or more RAM
  568. SamWhited Depends how big your storage pool is; 1GB of RAM per TB of storage is a good general guess for how much space you'll want for a cache.
  569. Ge0rG SamWhited: and regarding bitter btrfs experiences, I happen to have a documented case: https://www.mail-archive.com/linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org/msg48375.html
  570. Ge0rG ...with too little RAM
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  573. Ge0rG SamWhited: the question is actually how much *kernel memory* is needed to operate the fs, because you can't swap the kernel
  574. moparisthebest I don't run swap either meh
  575. SamWhited oh yah, that's poor
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  605. marc Does Cisco Jabber comply with the XMPP standard?
  606. Maranda huhu
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  608. Ge0rG marc: at least on cisco.com they still dont have TLS
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  610. Zash Looks like they do on c2s?
  611. marc Ge0rG, is Cisco Jabber SaaS or do they provide a server software?
  612. stuxnet Security and Cisco - what do you dream at night?
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  615. Maranda marc, [19:58:22] ‎Echo1‎: Maranda: cisco.com is running jabberd version on an unknown platform
  616. marc haha
  617. marc https://check.messaging.one/result.php?domain=cisco.com&type=client
  618. Maranda marc, don't ask me what kind of a hack of jabberd14 that is because I don't know and I don't want to know.
  619. Maranda jabberd14 or jabberd that is.
  620. marc Maranda, according to Holger it is not related to the jabberd project all atl
  621. Zash Jabber XCP or something
  622. Maranda Zash, who knows. https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/products/collateral/unified-communications/jabber-windows/jabber-xcp-retirement-message.pdf
  623. Holger Yeah it's no longer called XCP.
  624. Holger https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/
  625. Holger marc: They sell the server software.
  626. Holger (Usually integrated with their VoIP stuff these days.)
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  628. marc Holger, ah okay. yes, the VoIP stuff is the reason why some people want to move from ejabberd(!) to cisco jabber ôÔ
  629. Holger Yup.
  630. Maranda facepalms.
  631. marc Because it works well with the Cisco Phones :D
  632. marc :(
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  634. Holger Yes I get how this is nice for the enterprise use case.
  635. Holger Unfortunately their XMPP support degraded over the past few years.
  636. Holger They never implemented the modern XEPs and now slowly come up with proprietary extensions to support the multi-device/mobile stuff.
  637. marc Holger, does it mean that the phones will use VoIP via the jabber server or what's the use case?
  638. Holger marc: No it's mostly just an integrated address book for both (which can be Microsoft AD) and that you see the phone presence (or initiate calls) in your chat app. Stuff like that.
  639. Holger Their VoIP is just SIP.
  640. marc Holger, Sounds like very boring stuff to me. What does phone presence mean?
  641. Holger You're currently in a call or not.
  642. Holger My co-workers love it.
  643. Holger Well the administration people.
  644. Holger Staff council not so much.
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  649. Zash Hmm, something XMPP-optimized similar to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-email-tls-02 ?
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  752. Kev I feel I'm missing something with this MAM thread, as he seems to be asking for a whole bunch of things that MAM can already do.
  753. Kev Has anyone else got a better grasp on what he's asking? He asked me in private too, and I suggested he take it to the list, but it's not explained it to me any better.
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  759. Zash If you have some random MAM id, how do you retrieve that specific message?
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  761. Kev If you have some random MAM id, why do you need that particular message? The holes he talks about are bounded by ids, and you can request the messages between two ids.
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  763. lovetox he just finds it inefficient
  764. dwd has left
  765. Kev Yes, that's the confusing thing. If you want the messages, then first asking for the ids and then asking for the messages is obviously inefficient.
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  767. Kev Assuming you're getting the same ids and messages in both cases - which you seem to be able to do for all his use cases.
  768. lovetox i guess he doenst want to load all these messages
  769. Kev He says he does.
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  771. lovetox instead he wants to load them later when looked at or something like that
  772. lovetox also i think he has plotted out his client architecture without looking how the xep works first
  773. waqas I skimmed through the thread. His mental model is a bit different than our normal one.
  774. waqas His model makes sense if this was REST/HATEOS
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  776. waqas Or in cases where IDs have some significance or order is missing
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  778. waqas But MAM isn't syncing of a key-value store, its syncing of a log, where content matters and IDs only play a supporting role.
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  782. waqas MAM is like git, and unlike e.g., file system sync.
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  786. Zash How is MAM like git?
  787. Kev It's sequenced.
  788. Kev You use the content of one item to find the previous item, linked-list stylee.
  789. waqas Yes, and you'd notice similarities if you look at the git/hg/etc sync protocols
  790. waqas Where commit hashes (ids) are used more like database cursors, even if you'd otherwise think of them as database primary keys.
  791. waqas This is very common in log sync protocols
  792. Zash I'd like to think that MAM is much simpler than dvcs sync protocols
  793. Kev I'm not sure why. Optimisations aside, git sync is very straightforward.
  794. Kev (And then the optimisations and details make it all much less pleasant, naturally)
  795. waqas Yes, git sync is very simple at its core
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  797. Zash I don't know how git sync works. I only read the mailing list posts where it was said to be just scp/rsync/whatever
  798. waqas rsync is different, and more like what that person wants
  799. Zash By "rsync" I mean "just transfer the files"
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  802. Zash If it were truly a content-addressable thing, that would work
  803. waqas The protocol requires both sides to scan the entire dataset in rsync :)
  804. waqas Because there is no order
  805. Zash But that'd be rsyncs problem, not git
  806. waqas Yep, because git can have a much simpler protocol due to commit ordering, "give me everything since this hash"
  807. Kev a la MAM
  808. Zash I'd imagine it'd be "between this hash and this branch/label/named commit"
  809. waqas Other examples of log sync protocols include kafka's sync, db replication protocols used by mysql/postgres/mongodb/etc all of which implement a write ahead log, etc
  810. waqas At their core if you ignore implementation specific bells and whistles, it's the same logic
  811. Zash Fetching stuff from one DAG to another ought to be more complicated
  812. Zash What I've seen of the hg protocol seems to agree
  813. waqas The main compleixity beyond MAM is multiple local and remote heads (or hg branches). It's largely the client communicating what it has and what it wants up to, give_me(from_hash_list, to_hash_list), plus some protocol elements and local git config to figure out what the server has.
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