XSF Discussion - 2018-03-05

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  161. daniel What's not to get about the mam thread. Closing gaps is incredibly difficult in current MAM.
  162. daniel I can totally see why they want to retrieve a list of all ids
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  165. jonasw yeah, I realized that while writing my reply
  166. daniel Also when you are woken up by the os after a push I can see why you maybe want to just get one message instead of all the back log
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  168. jonasw but assuming that with bad connection, the overlap between the "huge" gap (which spans from "last message ID of the gapless huge block in the past to now) and messages received inbetween should be small enough to not worry about the overhead?
  169. daniel I might not do that in my application.
  170. daniel But I can see why someone would want to do that
  171. Kev How is filling a hole hard? You say "Give me stuff between these ids".
  172. jonasw yeah, I don’t see the problem with that; the push service should just deliver that ID.
  173. jonasw Kev, what if you don’t have those IDs?
  174. daniel Kev: remembering where the gaps are is
  175. jonasw because you don’t get IDs for messages you sent!!k
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  180. intosi jonasw: you have ids of things surrounding the gap. You can use the start and end of a returned set that isn't complete.
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  182. intosi * first / last
  183. jonasw intosi, *if* you actually have the IDs, yes
  184. jonasw but it makes things more complex than "query MAM from the last ID you got"
  185. Kev Other than sent messages, which are an obviously different problem, why would you not have them?
  186. intosi ^ what Kev asked
  187. jonasw Kev, other than that, you’d have them if your server supports giving you IDs on carbons
  188. intosi If you know there's a hole, you have a first and a last id.
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  190. jonasw I am just arguing that the suggesiton from that thread that all you’d have to do is to query since the last ID: > And how it is more simple than "the latest message I have has ID XXXXX, request all messages since XXXXX"? is not correct.
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  195. Kev jonasw: It depends what you're trying to achieve.
  196. Kev If you want complete sync, then Edwin is right.
  197. Kev If you only want recent sync, then the holes don't matter so much.
  198. Kev But in any case, ISTM that filling the holes is possible anyway.
  199. Kev Assuming you get the ids on messages sent/received, but those are orthogonal issues.
  200. jonasw Kev, yes, it is possible
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  204. jonasw so I drafted this: https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/26#issuecomment-370333729
  205. jonasw would that work or do I have a logic fault in that?
  206. jonasw (regarding backfilling holes)
  207. jonasw s/event/message/ if you can’t follow
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  210. daniel jonasw: sounds pretty complicated considering the general dump clients approach of xmpp
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  212. jonasw I find it rather okay-ish. It has the advantage (compared to a list of stanza-IDs from the server) that I can dedup properly even if I don’t get stanza-ids on all stanzas, which is sadly currently the state-of-the-xmpp-art
  213. daniel jonasw: i agree with you that it is _possible_ to close gaps. But at what cost. Do you really want to point every xmpp developer to that algorithm?
  214. jonasw one could also simply keep track of the last "MAM-confirmed" message and always sync from there.
  215. jonasw the number of dups should be neglectible anyways if sync failed due to bad network.
  216. daniel > one could also simply keep track of the last "MAM-confirmed" message and always sync from there. That's what I do. And I only dedup once because then I put the mam ID in the dedupped message by the way
  217. daniel But thats a different thing than closing gaps
  218. Kev Sounds straightforward enough.
  219. jonasw daniel, in the end, the gap is closed; what do you consider "closing gaps"?
  220. daniel I love how for every xep there is ab 'algorithm' or an explanation on some random persons blog or github like here is how you use that xep.
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  332. edhelas https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/7460 Signal down
  333. Ge0rG Time to blow the xmpp horn!
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  336. Ge0rG Oh, it's up again, only was down for two hours
  337. Holger Damn.
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  373. jonasw vanitasvitae, wouldn’t the MAM usage you proposed on standards@ cause a long-connected client to re-download all messages it alread has received live?
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  377. vanitasvitae jonasw: sorry, I'm not sure which proposal you are talking about :D
  378. jonasw vanitasvitae, the email which starts with: > Maybe it helps to write down how most xmpp devs use MAM
  379. jonasw oh damn
  380. vanitasvitae :D
  381. jonasw I think I got you confused
  382. vanitasvitae Wasnt me probably
  383. jonasw which also explains why "you" are so proficient with MAM, that was unexpected to me
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  386. vanitasvitae :D
  387. vanitasvitae I think lovetox sent that mail, right?
  388. jonasw yeah
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  411. Link Mauve Ugh… https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-android/issues/802
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  414. Kev Suddenly Swift's issue reporting doesn't seem so bad, does it? :)
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  417. Link Mauve You mean closing any issue and opening it in your internal bugtracker, where you can say exactly the same thing without me knowing it? :p
  418. Kev I think the 'without you knowing it' bit matters :)
  419. Kev I mean, no, we'd never do that!
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  422. intosi 😼
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  440. moparisthebest Link Mauve, to be fair that scanner thing had a ton of false positives, even on conversations...
  441. moparisthebest in fact what I've seen of it was *only* false positives up to now
  442. Link Mauve moparisthebest, they haven’t been able to scan Conversations because you have to pay for it.
  443. moparisthebest oh, was it a different scan then?
  444. moparisthebest I'm having trouble finding it but there was definitly a 'scan report' released recently that accused conversations of having trackers too
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  451. Link Mauve moparisthebest, there was one for some Conversations “plugin”: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/reports/search/eu.siacs.conversations.sharelocation
  452. Link Mauve But that’s not Conversations.
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  525. SamWhited I hatethose things, they always say stuff without any context
  526. SamWhited 'ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION Dangerous' … umm, no, it's a mapping app, that's expected.
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  558. Link Mauve https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/reports/2332/ otoh, is doing well.
  559. Link Mauve SamWhited, or internet access, for an application opening a TCP connection on a non-HTTP port. :p
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  562. SamWhited Isn't Android's INTERNET permission just implicit and given to everything? That one seems really extreme
  563. moparisthebest yes
  564. jonasw lolwat, INTERNET "dangerous"?
  565. moparisthebest I thought they were changing that at some point, maybe 8 or in the future?
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  567. moparisthebest this is one of the now fewer reasons why I insist rooting is necessary for a secure android phone
  568. moparisthebest (because you can firewall applications from the internet that way)
  569. jonasw I’m more worried about android or the telephony itself being massively insecure. If I wouldn’t trust the apps I’m running, I can trash the device right away I feel.
  570. Link Mauve Anyway, these guys are very open to suggestions, I can pass any you have.
  571. SamWhited I'm more worried about "scanners" like this training non-technical users to look at exactly the wrong things.
  572. jonasw yeah
  573. jonasw scanning for trackers is probably sane
  574. SamWhited Not IMO
  575. jonasw dunno
  576. Link Mauve SamWhited, when you see things such as https://blog.acolyer.org/2018/03/05/apps-trackers-privacy-and-regulators-a-global-study-of-the-mobile-tracking-ecosystem/
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  578. jonasw depends on how safe against false-positives it is
  579. Link Mauve It’s not exactly “the wrong thing”.
  580. SamWhited I'm aware, but Google's app analytics stuff isn't that.
  581. Link Mauve jonasw, it isn’t, because by European laws they are not allowed to decompile or anything.
  582. Link Mauve Their tester is a glorified grep.
  583. jonasw I would not support a statement which said that "google analytics is exactly the wrong thing to look at when checking how privacy friendly a thing is" though
  584. Link Mauve I block Google Analytics on the web, I would do the same if I had a phone.
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  587. moparisthebest yea but if you voluntarily use the google play store to install apps, that seems like a hard opt-in to google analytics tracking to me
  588. moparisthebest which is why I only use f-droid personally
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  590. Link Mauve moparisthebest, most people don’t know alternatives even exist.
  591. Link Mauve They use what was installed when they bought their phone.
  592. Zash Windows monopoly all over again
  593. moparisthebest I know, depressing :'(
  594. Link Mauve moparisthebest, does Google Play Store leaks when you launch applications or what you do in them, or something?
  595. moparisthebest additionally most phones don't allow you to remove google play, again, you have to root it for that
  596. Link Mauve Or is it just what you install and when?
  597. moparisthebest I know it can uninstall apps and install updates without your permission too
  598. moparisthebest so *probably* all of those things?
  599. moparisthebest wait did you say only https wasn't a red flag? why is TLS on 443 any less suspicious than other ports? :'(
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  601. Link Mauve “18:05:56 jonasw> lolwat, INTERNET "dangerous"?”, I asked them, apparently the category is given by Google.
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  607. daniel That quoting
  608. Link Mauve Sorry, I haven’t worked on poezio in a long time. :x
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  624. jjrh Anyone have any recommendations for a simple XMPP git bot?
  625. rion github sends me notifications on commits. maybe their bot is opensource. I don't know.
  626. j.r rion: how?
  627. jjrh Yeah github has uh hubot? It's kinda a giant thing that does a whole lot more than respond to a on commit hook
  628. Zash There's one that announces commits in the poezio room, ask them what they use.
  629. jjrh Thanks Zash
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  631. Zash IIRC it got added to Github itself, somehow.
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  634. Link Mauve I think there is one by github themselves, which they host, and a ruĝamia from redmine.
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  637. Zash You could also do what we (prosody) do, and put something as a receive-hook on the server, if you have control over that
  638. jjrh Zash, that's what i'm planning on doing.
  639. rion example of github standard hook http://pix.academ.info/img/2018/03/06/af0363c83be4f268ad76a09ecb0fa35f.png
  640. j.r > I think there is one by github themselves, which they host, and a ruĝamia from redmine. Where can I finds the bot by github itself?
  641. jjrh We already do this with email, but channel notifications would be nice.
  642. moparisthebest you could have the email trigger an xmpp message >:)
  643. Link Mauve j.r, I couldn’t find their source code in a short search, I don’t know.
  644. j.r Ok
  645. jjrh moparisthebest, yes - but what software exists to do the XMPP part?
  646. jjrh I could write this myself but I figured someone had already done it
  647. Zash https://github.com/github/github-services/tree/master/lib/services search for "xmpp"
  648. Zash wild guess
  649. Zash Seems to match the options in Settings → Integrations
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  668. moparisthebest jjrh, https://github.com/moparisthebest/sendxmpp-py https://github.com/moparisthebest/sendxmpp-rs ancient-perl-sendxmpp, called by a hook or sieve script
  669. jjrh cheers!
  670. moparisthebest of those I'd suggest the python one if it works for you
  671. marmistrz has joined
  672. jjrh Does it do MUC or just message?
  673. moparisthebest ew yea, just message
  674. moparisthebest you probably want a proper bot then
  675. jjrh Yeah that's what it's sounding like. Probably should just write something myself, the examples are handy though.
  676. moparisthebest sendxmpp-py should be fairly easy to modify to do that I think
  677. blabla has joined
  678. jjrh Yeah - what might work nicely is to use sendxmpp to send a message to a bot which can have some more smarts
  679. jjrh https://github.com/moparisthebest/sendxmpp-rs/blob/master/Cargo.toml I think your description might be wrong ;)
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  687. moparisthebest ha yea looks like it, how the hell did that happen, probably what cargo new does by default or something
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  721. pep. rion, do you have a room for psi dev?
  722. pep. or psi in general
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  725. Neustradamus xmpp:psi-dev@conference.jabber.ru?join
  726. pep. yay captcha..
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  759. marc Ge0rG, https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/pull/9 works fine for me on firefox and firefox focus (mobile)
  760. marc Would be nice if you merge it t get rid of Google Fonts
  761. marc s/t/to
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