XSF Discussion - 2018-03-05

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  161. daniel

    What's not to get about the mam thread. Closing gaps is incredibly difficult in current MAM.

  162. daniel

    I can totally see why they want to retrieve a list of all ids

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  165. jonasw

    yeah, I realized that while writing my reply

  166. daniel

    Also when you are woken up by the os after a push I can see why you maybe want to just get one message instead of all the back log

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  168. jonasw

    but assuming that with bad connection, the overlap between the "huge" gap (which spans from "last message ID of the gapless huge block in the past to now) and messages received inbetween should be small enough to not worry about the overhead?

  169. daniel

    I might not do that in my application.

  170. daniel

    But I can see why someone would want to do that

  171. Kev

    How is filling a hole hard? You say "Give me stuff between these ids".

  172. jonasw

    yeah, I don’t see the problem with that; the push service should just deliver that ID.

  173. jonasw

    Kev, what if you don’t have those IDs?

  174. daniel

    Kev: remembering where the gaps are is

  175. jonasw

    because you don’t get IDs for messages you sent!!k

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  180. intosi

    jonasw: you have ids of things surrounding the gap. You can use the start and end of a returned set that isn't complete.

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  182. intosi

    * first / last

  183. jonasw

    intosi, *if* you actually have the IDs, yes

  184. jonasw

    but it makes things more complex than "query MAM from the last ID you got"

  185. Kev

    Other than sent messages, which are an obviously different problem, why would you not have them?

  186. intosi

    ^ what Kev asked

  187. jonasw

    Kev, other than that, you’d have them if your server supports giving you IDs on carbons

  188. intosi

    If you know there's a hole, you have a first and a last id.

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  190. jonasw

    I am just arguing that the suggesiton from that thread that all you’d have to do is to query since the last ID: > And how it is more simple than "the latest message I have has ID XXXXX, request all messages since XXXXX"? is not correct.

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  195. Kev

    jonasw: It depends what you're trying to achieve.

  196. Kev

    If you want complete sync, then Edwin is right.

  197. Kev

    If you only want recent sync, then the holes don't matter so much.

  198. Kev

    But in any case, ISTM that filling the holes is possible anyway.

  199. Kev

    Assuming you get the ids on messages sent/received, but those are orthogonal issues.

  200. jonasw

    Kev, yes, it is possible

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  204. jonasw

    so I drafted this: https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/26#issuecomment-370333729

  205. jonasw

    would that work or do I have a logic fault in that?

  206. jonasw

    (regarding backfilling holes)

  207. jonasw

    s/event/message/ if you can’t follow

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  210. daniel

    jonasw: sounds pretty complicated considering the general dump clients approach of xmpp

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  212. jonasw

    I find it rather okay-ish. It has the advantage (compared to a list of stanza-IDs from the server) that I can dedup properly even if I don’t get stanza-ids on all stanzas, which is sadly currently the state-of-the-xmpp-art

  213. daniel

    jonasw: i agree with you that it is _possible_ to close gaps. But at what cost. Do you really want to point every xmpp developer to that algorithm?

  214. jonasw

    one could also simply keep track of the last "MAM-confirmed" message and always sync from there.

  215. jonasw

    the number of dups should be neglectible anyways if sync failed due to bad network.

  216. daniel

    > one could also simply keep track of the last "MAM-confirmed" message and always sync from there. That's what I do. And I only dedup once because then I put the mam ID in the dedupped message by the way

  217. daniel

    But thats a different thing than closing gaps

  218. Kev

    Sounds straightforward enough.

  219. jonasw

    daniel, in the end, the gap is closed; what do you consider "closing gaps"?

  220. daniel

    I love how for every xep there is ab 'algorithm' or an explanation on some random persons blog or github like here is how you use that xep.

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  332. edhelas

    https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/7460 Signal down

  333. Ge0rG

    Time to blow the xmpp horn!

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  336. Ge0rG

    Oh, it's up again, only was down for two hours

  337. Holger


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  373. jonasw

    vanitasvitae, wouldn’t the MAM usage you proposed on standards@ cause a long-connected client to re-download all messages it alread has received live?

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  377. vanitasvitae

    jonasw: sorry, I'm not sure which proposal you are talking about :D

  378. jonasw

    vanitasvitae, the email which starts with: > Maybe it helps to write down how most xmpp devs use MAM

  379. jonasw

    oh damn

  380. vanitasvitae


  381. jonasw

    I think I got you confused

  382. vanitasvitae

    Wasnt me probably

  383. jonasw

    which also explains why "you" are so proficient with MAM, that was unexpected to me

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  386. vanitasvitae


  387. vanitasvitae

    I think lovetox sent that mail, right?

  388. jonasw


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  411. Link Mauve

    Ugh… https://github.com/redsolution/xabber-android/issues/802

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  414. Kev

    Suddenly Swift's issue reporting doesn't seem so bad, does it? :)

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  417. Link Mauve

    You mean closing any issue and opening it in your internal bugtracker, where you can say exactly the same thing without me knowing it? :p

  418. Kev

    I think the 'without you knowing it' bit matters :)

  419. Kev

    I mean, no, we'd never do that!

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  422. intosi


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  440. moparisthebest

    Link Mauve, to be fair that scanner thing had a ton of false positives, even on conversations...

  441. moparisthebest

    in fact what I've seen of it was *only* false positives up to now

  442. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, they haven’t been able to scan Conversations because you have to pay for it.

  443. moparisthebest

    oh, was it a different scan then?

  444. moparisthebest

    I'm having trouble finding it but there was definitly a 'scan report' released recently that accused conversations of having trackers too

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  451. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, there was one for some Conversations “plugin”: https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/reports/search/eu.siacs.conversations.sharelocation

  452. Link Mauve

    But that’s not Conversations.

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  525. SamWhited

    I hatethose things, they always say stuff without any context

  526. SamWhited

    'ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION Dangerous' … umm, no, it's a mapping app, that's expected.

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  558. Link Mauve

    https://reports.exodus-privacy.eu.org/reports/2332/ otoh, is doing well.

  559. Link Mauve

    SamWhited, or internet access, for an application opening a TCP connection on a non-HTTP port. :p

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  562. SamWhited

    Isn't Android's INTERNET permission just implicit and given to everything? That one seems really extreme

  563. moparisthebest


  564. jonasw

    lolwat, INTERNET "dangerous"?

  565. moparisthebest

    I thought they were changing that at some point, maybe 8 or in the future?

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  567. moparisthebest

    this is one of the now fewer reasons why I insist rooting is necessary for a secure android phone

  568. moparisthebest

    (because you can firewall applications from the internet that way)

  569. jonasw

    I’m more worried about android or the telephony itself being massively insecure. If I wouldn’t trust the apps I’m running, I can trash the device right away I feel.

  570. Link Mauve

    Anyway, these guys are very open to suggestions, I can pass any you have.

  571. SamWhited

    I'm more worried about "scanners" like this training non-technical users to look at exactly the wrong things.

  572. jonasw


  573. jonasw

    scanning for trackers is probably sane

  574. SamWhited

    Not IMO

  575. jonasw


  576. Link Mauve

    SamWhited, when you see things such as https://blog.acolyer.org/2018/03/05/apps-trackers-privacy-and-regulators-a-global-study-of-the-mobile-tracking-ecosystem/

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  578. jonasw

    depends on how safe against false-positives it is

  579. Link Mauve

    It’s not exactly “the wrong thing”.

  580. SamWhited

    I'm aware, but Google's app analytics stuff isn't that.

  581. Link Mauve

    jonasw, it isn’t, because by European laws they are not allowed to decompile or anything.

  582. Link Mauve

    Their tester is a glorified grep.

  583. jonasw

    I would not support a statement which said that "google analytics is exactly the wrong thing to look at when checking how privacy friendly a thing is" though

  584. Link Mauve

    I block Google Analytics on the web, I would do the same if I had a phone.

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  587. moparisthebest

    yea but if you voluntarily use the google play store to install apps, that seems like a hard opt-in to google analytics tracking to me

  588. moparisthebest

    which is why I only use f-droid personally

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  590. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, most people don’t know alternatives even exist.

  591. Link Mauve

    They use what was installed when they bought their phone.

  592. Zash

    Windows monopoly all over again

  593. moparisthebest

    I know, depressing :'(

  594. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, does Google Play Store leaks when you launch applications or what you do in them, or something?

  595. moparisthebest

    additionally most phones don't allow you to remove google play, again, you have to root it for that

  596. Link Mauve

    Or is it just what you install and when?

  597. moparisthebest

    I know it can uninstall apps and install updates without your permission too

  598. moparisthebest

    so *probably* all of those things?

  599. moparisthebest

    wait did you say only https wasn't a red flag? why is TLS on 443 any less suspicious than other ports? :'(

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  601. Link Mauve

    “18:05:56 jonasw> lolwat, INTERNET "dangerous"?”, I asked them, apparently the category is given by Google.

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  607. daniel

    That quoting

  608. Link Mauve

    Sorry, I haven’t worked on poezio in a long time. :x

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  624. jjrh

    Anyone have any recommendations for a simple XMPP git bot?

  625. rion

    github sends me notifications on commits. maybe their bot is opensource. I don't know.

  626. j.r

    rion: how?

  627. jjrh

    Yeah github has uh hubot? It's kinda a giant thing that does a whole lot more than respond to a on commit hook

  628. Zash

    There's one that announces commits in the poezio room, ask them what they use.

  629. jjrh

    Thanks Zash

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  631. Zash

    IIRC it got added to Github itself, somehow.

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  634. Link Mauve

    I think there is one by github themselves, which they host, and a ruĝamia from redmine.

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  637. Zash

    You could also do what we (prosody) do, and put something as a receive-hook on the server, if you have control over that

  638. jjrh

    Zash, that's what i'm planning on doing.

  639. rion

    example of github standard hook http://pix.academ.info/img/2018/03/06/af0363c83be4f268ad76a09ecb0fa35f.png

  640. j.r

    > I think there is one by github themselves, which they host, and a ruĝamia from redmine. Where can I finds the bot by github itself?

  641. jjrh

    We already do this with email, but channel notifications would be nice.

  642. moparisthebest

    you could have the email trigger an xmpp message >:)

  643. Link Mauve

    j.r, I couldn’t find their source code in a short search, I don’t know.

  644. j.r


  645. jjrh

    moparisthebest, yes - but what software exists to do the XMPP part?

  646. jjrh

    I could write this myself but I figured someone had already done it

  647. Zash

    https://github.com/github/github-services/tree/master/lib/services search for "xmpp"

  648. Zash

    wild guess

  649. Zash

    Seems to match the options in Settings → Integrations

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  668. moparisthebest

    jjrh, https://github.com/moparisthebest/sendxmpp-py https://github.com/moparisthebest/sendxmpp-rs ancient-perl-sendxmpp, called by a hook or sieve script

  669. jjrh


  670. moparisthebest

    of those I'd suggest the python one if it works for you

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  672. jjrh

    Does it do MUC or just message?

  673. moparisthebest

    ew yea, just message

  674. moparisthebest

    you probably want a proper bot then

  675. jjrh

    Yeah that's what it's sounding like. Probably should just write something myself, the examples are handy though.

  676. moparisthebest

    sendxmpp-py should be fairly easy to modify to do that I think

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  678. jjrh

    Yeah - what might work nicely is to use sendxmpp to send a message to a bot which can have some more smarts

  679. jjrh

    https://github.com/moparisthebest/sendxmpp-rs/blob/master/Cargo.toml I think your description might be wrong ;)

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  687. moparisthebest

    ha yea looks like it, how the hell did that happen, probably what cargo new does by default or something

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  721. pep.

    rion, do you have a room for psi dev?

  722. pep.

    or psi in general

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  725. Neustradamus


  726. pep.

    yay captcha..

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  759. marc

    Ge0rG, https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/pull/9 works fine for me on firefox and firefox focus (mobile)

  760. marc

    Would be nice if you merge it t get rid of Google Fonts

  761. marc


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