XSF Discussion - 2018-03-06

  1. Alex has left
  2. lovetox has left
  3. daniel has left
  4. blabla has left
  5. Dave Cridland has left
  6. dwd has left
  7. blabla has joined
  8. Steve Kille has left
  9. dwd has joined
  10. dwd has left
  11. ralphm has joined
  12. waqas has left
  13. Guus has left
  14. ralphm has joined
  15. goffi has left
  16. Zash has left
  17. Zash has left
  18. sonny has left
  19. ralphm has joined
  20. Dave Cridland has left
  21. dwd has joined
  22. Dave Cridland has left
  23. daniel has joined
  24. Maranda has joined
  25. j.r has left
  26. j.r has joined
  27. waqas has joined
  28. waqas has left
  29. intosi has joined
  30. ralphm has joined
  31. ralphm has joined
  32. la|r|ma has left
  33. intosi has left
  34. Dave Cridland has left
  35. dwd has left
  36. Dave Cridland has left
  37. dwd has joined
  38. mrdoctorwho has left
  39. Dave Cridland has left
  40. Dave Cridland has left
  41. Holger has left
  42. Dave Cridland has left
  43. Dave Cridland has left
  44. SamWhited has left
  45. Zash has joined
  46. ralphm has left
  47. dwd has left
  48. ralphm has joined
  49. Zash has left
  50. la|r|ma has joined
  51. mrdoctorwho has left
  52. daniel has left
  53. daniel has joined
  54. daniel has left
  55. @Alacer has left
  56. @Alacer has joined
  57. ralphm has left
  58. mrdoctorwho has left
  59. Dave Cridland has left
  60. @Alacer has left
  61. Guus has left
  62. ralphm has joined
  63. rion has joined
  64. dwd has joined
  65. rion has left
  66. rion has joined
  67. Guus has left
  68. moparisthebest has left
  69. Steve Kille has joined
  70. dwd has left
  71. dwd has joined
  72. Dave Cridland has left
  73. mrdoctorwho has left
  74. daniel has joined
  75. tux has left
  76. tux has joined
  77. ralphm has left
  78. ralphm has joined
  79. dwd has left
  80. rion has left
  81. SamWhited has left
  82. Steve Kille has left
  83. Guus has left
  84. Dave Cridland has left
  85. dwd has joined
  86. ralphm has left
  87. Dave Cridland has left
  88. ralphm has joined
  89. Guus has left
  90. rion has joined
  91. dwd has left
  92. dwd has joined
  93. Dave Cridland has left
  94. matlag has left
  95. Dave Cridland has left
  96. Dave Cridland has left
  97. Dave Cridland has joined
  98. rion has left
  99. dwd has left
  100. Guus has left
  101. rion has joined
  102. ralphm has left
  103. ralphm has joined
  104. Dave Cridland has left
  105. dwd has left
  106. Dave Cridland has left
  107. dwd has joined
  108. andy has joined
  109. Zash has joined
  110. jere has left
  111. dwd has left
  112. Yagiza has joined
  113. daniel has left
  114. Steve Kille has joined
  115. Dave Cridland has left
  116. Dave Cridland has left
  117. matlag has joined
  118. dwd has joined
  119. ralphm has joined
  120. Dave Cridland has left
  121. Dave Cridland has left
  122. moparisthebest has left
  123. rion has left
  124. daniel has joined
  125. Dave Cridland has left
  126. Nekit has left
  127. Nekit has joined
  128. ralphm has left
  129. ralphm has joined
  130. @Alacer has joined
  131. @Alacer has left
  132. ralphm has left
  133. Tobias has joined
  134. Tobias has joined
  135. Nekit has left
  136. Nekit has joined
  137. ralphm has joined
  138. Guus has left
  139. dwd has left
  140. Dave Cridland has left
  141. j.r has left
  142. j.r has joined
  143. rion has left
  144. moparisthebest has joined
  145. Dave Cridland has left
  146. Dave Cridland has left
  147. dwd has left
  148. ralphm has left
  149. daniel has left
  150. daniel has joined
  151. intosi has joined
  152. dwd has left
  153. ralphm has joined
  154. andy has left
  155. andy has joined
  156. Dave Cridland has left
  157. suzyo has joined
  158. dwd has left
  159. andy has left
  160. Dave Cridland has left
  161. intosi has left
  162. Dave Cridland has left
  163. Steve Kille has left
  164. andy has joined
  165. rion has joined
  166. efrit has joined
  167. daniel has left
  168. daniel has joined
  169. andy has left
  170. ChaosKid42 has left
  171. ChaosKid42 has joined
  172. Guus has left
  173. dwd has left
  174. Dave Cridland has left
  175. daniel has left
  176. daniel has joined
  177. Dave Cridland has left
  178. dwd has left
  179. xnyhps has left
  180. dwd has left
  181. dwd has left
  182. vanitasvitae has left
  183. lovetox has joined
  184. suzyo has joined
  185. efrit has left
  186. Holger has left
  187. daniel has left
  188. Guus has left
  189. suzyo has joined
  190. Fabian has joined
  191. Fabian has left
  192. ChaosKid42 has left
  193. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  194. lovetox has left
  195. Guus has left
  196. ChaosKid42 has joined
  197. vanitasvitae has left
  198. flow has joined
  199. daniel has joined
  200. xnyhps has left
  201. Dave Cridland has left
  202. Seve/SouL has joined
  203. dwd has joined
  204. Dave Cridland has left
  205. ChaosKid42 has left
  206. ChaosKid42 has joined
  207. intosi has joined
  208. dwd has left
  209. Dave Cridland has left
  210. Ge0rG pep.: there is an alternative development in https://github.com/ge0rg/easy-xmpp-invitation/tree/bootstrapless
  211. ChaosKid42 has left
  212. Ge0rG pep.: unfortunately, Martin and me did some work in parallel, because I forgot to push 🤦
  213. ChaosKid42 has joined
  214. Dave Cridland has left
  215. dwd has joined
  216. ChaosKid42 has left
  217. ChaosKid42 has joined
  218. daniel has left
  219. daniel has joined
  220. Fabian has joined
  221. Fabian has left
  222. Zash What hip new framework is that? Is it anything like vanillajs?
  223. Dave Cridland has left
  224. Dave Cridland has left
  225. dwd has left
  226. dwd has joined
  227. jonasw Ge0rG, did you mean to ping marc?
  228. Dave Cridland has left
  229. jubalh has joined
  230. Dave Cridland has left
  231. dwd has left
  232. Dave Cridland has left
  233. jubalh has left
  234. Ge0rG jonasw: right, I must've been scrolling too fast.
  235. Ge0rG Sorry pep., I meant to respond to marc indeed.
  236. Fabian has joined
  237. Zash Redshift?
  238. daniel has left
  239. daniel has joined
  240. Dave Cridland has left
  241. Fabian has left
  242. flow has joined
  243. SaltyBones has left
  244. Dave Cridland has left
  245. dwd has left
  246. dwd has joined
  247. Dave Cridland has left
  248. vanitasvitae has left
  249. Steve Kille has left
  250. SaltyBones has left
  251. Alex has joined
  252. dwd has left
  253. Steve Kille has left
  254. Steve Kille has joined
  255. SaltyBones has joined
  256. la|r|ma has joined
  257. Seve/SouL has joined
  258. Dave Cridland has left
  259. dwd has left
  260. Seve/SouL has left
  261. Seve/SouL has joined
  262. Fabian has joined
  263. dwd has joined
  264. Steve Kille has left
  265. Dave Cridland has left
  266. Fabian has left
  267. dwd has left
  268. dwd has joined
  269. Dave Cridland has left
  270. dwd has left
  271. Fabian has joined
  272. Dave Cridland has left
  273. daniel has left
  274. daniel has joined
  275. dwd has joined
  276. Yagiza has left
  277. dwd has left
  278. Fabian has left
  279. goffi has joined
  280. pep. Ge0rG: thanks for the info ;)
  281. vanitasvitae has left
  282. blabla has left
  283. blabla has left
  284. rion has left
  285. rion has joined
  286. stuxnet has joined
  287. Alex has left
  288. ralphm has joined
  289. lovetox has joined
  290. marmistrz has left
  291. ChaosKid42 has left
  292. marmistrz has joined
  293. Alex has joined
  294. ChaosKid42 has joined
  295. Yagiza has joined
  296. Fabian has joined
  297. daniel has left
  298. daniel has joined
  299. daniel has left
  300. daniel has joined
  301. rtq3 has joined
  302. intosi has left
  303. rtq3 has left
  304. rtq3 has joined
  305. Seve/SouL has left
  306. Seve/SouL has joined
  307. daniel has left
  308. daniel has joined
  309. marmistrz has left
  310. ralphm has joined
  311. Dave Cridland has left
  312. daniel has left
  313. daniel has joined
  314. ChaosKid42 has left
  315. Dave Cridland has left
  316. ChaosKid42 has joined
  317. daniel has left
  318. daniel has joined
  319. Yagiza has left
  320. daniel has left
  321. daniel has joined
  322. dwd has joined
  323. Dave Cridland has left
  324. dwd has left
  325. dwd has joined
  326. daniel has left
  327. daniel has joined
  328. rion has left
  329. daniel has left
  330. jubalh has joined
  331. daniel has joined
  332. jubalh has left
  333. rtq3 has left
  334. dwd has left
  335. daniel has left
  336. daniel has joined
  337. Yagiza has joined
  338. ralphm has joined
  339. rtq3 has joined
  340. ralphm has joined
  341. la|r|ma has joined
  342. la|r|ma has joined
  343. lumi has joined
  344. ralphm has joined
  345. Guus has left
  346. jere has joined
  347. suzyo has joined
  348. Dave Cridland has left
  349. jonasw has joined
  350. rtq3 has left
  351. rtq3 has joined
  352. jere has left
  353. jere has joined
  354. marmistrz has left
  355. dwd has joined
  356. Dave Cridland has left
  357. dwd has left
  358. suzyo has joined
  359. jubalh has joined
  360. jubalh has left
  361. Seve/SouL has left
  362. SaltyBones has left
  363. dwd has joined
  364. dwd has left
  365. daniel has left
  366. Dave Cridland has left
  367. rion has joined
  368. ralphm has joined
  369. andy has joined
  370. Alex has left
  371. andy has left
  372. andy has joined
  373. ralphm has joined
  374. daniel has joined
  375. rion has left
  376. rion has joined
  377. marmistrz has joined
  378. vanitasvitae has left
  379. ChaosKid42 has left
  380. Alex has joined
  381. la|r|ma has joined
  382. ChaosKid42 has joined
  383. dwd has joined
  384. suzyo has joined
  385. dwd has left
  386. suzyo has joined
  387. Seve/SouL has joined
  388. stuxnet has joined
  389. SaltyBones has left
  390. stuxnet has joined
  391. Seve/SouL has left
  392. Seve/SouL has joined
  393. Holger has left
  394. jonasw has left
  395. tux has joined
  396. tux has joined
  397. andy has left
  398. andy has joined
  399. ChaosKid42 has left
  400. marmistrz has joined
  401. ralphm has joined
  402. daniel has left
  403. dwd has joined
  404. daniel has joined
  405. andy has left
  406. jonasw has left
  407. ChaosKid42 has joined
  408. SaltyBones has left
  409. Guus has left
  410. moparisthebest has joined
  411. Dave Cridland has left
  412. moparisthebest has joined
  413. dwd has left
  414. pep. has left
  415. ChaosKid42 has left
  416. SaltyBones has joined
  417. andy has joined
  418. Dave Cridland has left
  419. andy has left
  420. ChaosKid42 has joined
  421. dwd has joined
  422. Ge0rG jonasw: is there a tool to maintain xeps/xep.ent? I'm missing &xep0401; for an update to PARS.
  423. jubalh has joined
  424. jonasw Ge0rG, not yet
  425. jonasw I can either update it right now or you can do it yourself
  426. jonasw please pick one
  427. dwd has left
  428. andy has joined
  429. Ge0rG jonasw: please do so, thanks :)
  430. jubalh has left
  431. Seve/SouL has joined
  432. ChaosKid42 has left
  433. intosi has joined
  434. andy has left
  435. Dave Cridland has left
  436. ChaosKid42 has joined
  437. ralphm has joined
  438. jonasw Ge0rG, I guess I don’t need to botehr with issueing a deferral for XEP-0379 (PARS) then? ;-)
  439. jonasw Ge0rG, xep.ent updates pushed
  440. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks very much. I have had some pending minor changes for 0379 that I wanted to push before mid-Feb.
  441. Ge0rG Wanted and failed to.
  442. jonasw lets keep the spam low and defer the deferral for now then
  443. Ge0rG Thanks
  444. jonasw tbh it’s more laziness than anything else ;-)
  445. jonasw that and trying to prevent my domain from getting a bad spam score for all those mails ;-)
  446. dwd has joined
  447. Yagiza has left
  448. Ge0rG Would it make sense to have the same xmlns for 0379 and 0401?
  449. Ge0rG 0401: <preauth xmlns='urn:xmpp:invite:1'/> 0379: <preauth xmlns='urn:xmpp:pars:0' token='1tMFqYDdKhfe2pwp' />
  450. ralphm has joined
  451. jonasw only if you want to tie into namespace bumps of either
  452. jonasw otherwise I’d suggest not to
  453. jonasw but I lack context
  454. Seve/SouL has joined
  455. Ge0rG Right. That might be unfortunate.
  456. Ge0rG Though I'd like to burn the notion of namespace bumps with fire anyway.
  457. Dave Cridland has left
  458. jonasw what’s your suggestion what we should be doing instead?
  459. Ge0rG jonasw: feature-flags
  460. Zash and the difference is?
  461. jonasw hm, those help in some cases, but they don’t always make sense
  462. Ge0rG Zash: the difference is that it's a better protocol design and that it won't break people's expectations when they upgrade conversations without also upgrading ejabberd.
  463. jonasw Ge0rG, how?
  464. dwd has left
  465. jonasw the http upload update is a particularly bad example. it changed the whole syntax of the thing
  466. jonasw has joined
  467. jonasw even *if* that was represented by a feature, you’d still most likely implement only one variant.
  468. Ge0rG Hm.
  469. Ge0rG Maybe I haven't thought through this.
  470. tux has joined
  471. Zash It's less terrible once the protocol becomes more stable
  472. jonasw it helps with small things; if there had not been a syntax change but merely the addition of support for http headers, sure, that would work fine as a feature. however, the server would also need to detect that the client supports that. requires either caps, an additional roundtrip or a payload in the request.
  473. Alex has left
  474. Zash More options doesn't equal better
  475. dwd has joined
  476. Ge0rG jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/599
  477. dwd has left
  478. jonasw I don’t consider the URI change editorial fWIW
  479. jonasw but that doesn’t matter for you
  480. Ge0rG I don't even like the URI change.
  481. jonasw (it *does* matter in the sense that this would otherwise have been the trigger for a discussion on whether purely editorial changes should delay deferral)
  482. Ge0rG I could be asking for a Last Call instead, but somehow nobody implemented PARS in the last year.
  483. jonasw I’m sorry
  484. jonasw (I actually am)
  485. marmistrz has left
  486. Ge0rG I am as well, because I considered this a very effective way to make Jabber user onboarding easier.
  487. Ge0rG Unfortunately, some other widely-used implementation's author objected on formal grounds.
  488. jonasw C?
  489. Ge0rG Oh, in unrelated news: it seems like yaxim has over 100k total downloads on Google Play. I'm impressed
  490. jonasw lz
  491. jonasw (that’s like gz, but different)
  492. Ge0rG So different I'm not getting it. Sorry.
  493. Zash zstd?
  494. jonasw Ge0rG, man lzop
  495. Ge0rG jonasw: so while I'm impressed, you are compressed?
  496. jonasw Ge0rG, oh dear. so, gz is a short form of a leety "congratz" from back in the olden days when that was cool. or people thought it was cool.
  497. jonasw does that help?
  498. Yagiza has joined
  499. Ge0rG jonasw: ah, now I see the arc you are bending. Thanks.
  500. jonasw docker hub has the worst web UI ever.
  501. jonasw i have no idea why I need to "cancel" a build like three times before it takes effect. the first time the UI just won’t respond at all, the second it’ll change the button to "cancelling" but nothing further happens (after a reload it’s back to normal), the third one is finally effective
  502. jonasw not to mention the "X minutes ago" timestamps which only refresh on areload
  503. jonasw but which somehow suggest that the view was live
  504. jonasw </rant>
  505. daniel has left
  506. Zash Pray to the Browser overlords for magic no-js fuzzy styling of <time> tags
  507. jonasw Kev, wouldn’t a nicer way to do that "MAM <before/>+<after/>" be a form field in the query?
  508. andy has joined
  509. Dave Cridland has left
  510. lovetox it not only nicer, anything else would be in every way wrong
  511. Zash But paging is defined by RSM.
  512. jonasw Zash, that’s exactly why I’d prefer to have this in the form. alternatively, define the direction in that case via the form.
  513. jonasw and update RSM accordingly
  514. jonasw lovetox, regarding "start to sync again from that ID", that might be arbitrarily inefficient.
  515. dwd has joined
  516. lovetox we already concluded that mam is sometimes inefficient
  517. jonasw no need to make it worse :)
  518. lovetox RSM has nothing to do with what you want to do
  519. jonasw lovetox, huh;
  520. lovetox you want to query archive-id 😶 to archive-id = Y
  521. jonasw there’s an emoji in your message
  522. lovetox that should be defined in the query to MAM, like startime and endtime
  523. andy has left
  524. jonasw that sounds reasonable, but everyone is just talking about using <before/> and <after/> for that
  525. lovetox RSM is only for browsing the result
  526. jubalh has joined
  527. lovetox that makes no sense
  528. Zash FWIW, in Prosody, direction is set to backwards if <before/> is present
  529. Zash What happens after that depends on the lower storage layer
  530. MattJ Zash, is that even standard?
  531. lovetox <before/> gives you the last page of a result
  532. lovetox that is standard
  533. Zash MattJ: What, exactly, are you asking?
  534. jubalh has left
  535. MattJ Zash, afair in XEP-0313 results are always transmitted chronologically
  536. jonasw votes to close MattJs question as "Unclear what you’re asking"
  537. jonasw (scnr and just kidding)
  538. Zash MattJ: That's taken care of. This is different.
  539. ralphm has joined
  540. Zash So you should get a page where the last item preceeds the one identified by <before>
  541. Zash If you set <after> ... then either the results include that item or they don't
  542. Maranda votes for "they don't"
  543. Zash There's no voting
  544. Maranda Aw
  545. jonasw Zash, tell that to council
  546. intosi Zash: FWIW, in M-Link direction is set to backwards if <before/> is present, as well.
  547. intosi And specifying after never includes that item in the result set, regardless of whether you used before or not.
  548. Maranda I think that's how most implementations would do anyways? Is there any "black sheep" not doing that 🤔?
  549. daniel has joined
  550. Dave Cridland has left
  551. Maranda (about <before /> going backward from x)
  552. intosi MattJ: the way I read RSM, that's how it should behave. before/ is quite explicit about directionality :)
  553. dwd has left
  554. Zash I'm not promising that all Prosodys storage backends deal with the value of <after> if <before> is also present
  555. dwd has joined
  556. daniel has left
  557. Kev > jonasw > Kev, wouldn’t a nicer way to do that "MAM <before/>+<after/>" be a form field in the query? Why? RSM's already defined.
  558. Zash Does RSM define what happens if you include both?
  559. intosi Zash: it does not. But it similarly doesn't tell you you can't.
  560. jonasw Kev, I checked the other day and didn’t find a definition of what happens both <before/> and <after/> are given.
  561. Kev Zash: No, but if we're just careful in 313 that we explain it, we're golden.
  562. Kev I'm not suggesting that no text tweak to 313 is needed. Just that we already have the protocol and don't need to invent more.
  563. Maranda just checked, he doesn't handle a case if both are present.
  564. Maranda 🤔
  565. jonasw Kev, I’d argue anything which specifies RSM behaviour should not be in 313, but in the RSM XEP.
  566. Kev jonasw: I think that, in this case, I'd disagree.
  567. Kev But equally I wouldn't really mind it being in 59 either.
  568. Zash Default file based storage doesn't support both, so results would include the item in <after>.
  569. Maranda <before /><after>uuid</after> glitches a bit in my mind <before>uuid</before><after>uuid</after> sounds like in between
  570. Maranda And glitches too
  571. dwd has left
  572. intosi Maranda: your first example asks for the last items according to your requested page size, or some server default (might be inifity), but nothing that's uuid or older.
  573. jubalh has joined
  574. intosi Note that servers are very likely not to allow infinity-sized pages, as that's quite a burden on resources ;)
  575. tux has left
  576. daniel has joined
  577. Ge0rG Is the RSM discussion led in the context of "Dusty Drafts"? :D
  578. Ge0rG intosi: I had to learn the hard way, that even with a limited page size a DB might still lock up the whole server for multiple minutes merely to count the total number of results.
  579. Zash O(n) all the things
  580. Ge0rG Mar 06 14:28:30 mod_log_slow_events warn Slow event 'iq-set/self/urn:xmpp:mam:2:query' took 12.01s: ...
  581. intosi YEs. Counting items is a terrible idea.
  582. Ge0rG intosi: except it's required by RSM
  583. intosi Just as expensive as generating the entire set, usually.
  584. intosi Ge0rG: read closely.
  585. daniel has left
  586. Holger > <jonasw> Kev, I'd argue anything which specifies RSM behaviour should not be in 313, but in the RSM XEP. +1. I don't want an RSM implementation and a separate MAM-RSM variant.
  587. intosi Obtaining the item count is, but including the number of items in 313 is weasleworded.
  588. intosi Obtaining the item count with RSM techniques is
  589. Ge0rG intosi: hm. "The responding entity then returns the item count, which MAY be approximate rather than precise if determining the exact number of items would be resource-intensive"
  590. Zash count=rand()
  591. Holger Just always return 42.
  592. intosi No, return requested+1 if you know there is more.
  593. intosi ;)
  594. Zash intosi: Isn't that implied by complete=false
  595. intosi No.
  596. Ge0rG In SQLite, adding a `LIMIT` clause will change the order, unless you have an explicit `ORDER BY` in which case it's still going through the whole list.
  597. intosi That indicates that between the items specified, you may not have returned all items you think there could be in the set.
  598. intosi Ge0rG: depends on which data set you order-by.
  599. ralphm has joined
  600. intosi Query optimisation is an art more than a science.
  601. rion has left
  602. rion has joined
  603. Ge0rG intosi: Unforuntately it is. Especially if you have abstracted away DB access through some generic library.
  604. daniel has joined
  605. intosi Simple. Never do such a silly thing, unless you own the abstraction as well ;)
  606. rion has left
  607. rion has joined
  608. Ge0rG intosi: tell that Zash :P
  609. intosi Zash: what I said^
  610. Alex has joined
  611. Zash intosi: Tell Ge0rG that SQL things are terrible and why we can't have nice things
  612. Ge0rG intosi: and don't tell me not to use software where I don't control the whole stack, down to CPU µcode.
  613. intosi ;)
  614. Ge0rG Because I'd rather spend my time on Easy XMPP
  615. Ge0rG I mean Jabber.
  616. Maranda well counting isn't an issue here (as I never operate on the database directly), yet since at the time reading RSM spec I thought a before+after combo wasn't a possibility I don't handle those cases.
  617. Ge0rG I mean Zimpies.
  618. Maranda Metronome will handle before but not after if both are present.
  619. jonasw Maranda, at least return an error when you can’t handle a case and know it :<
  620. Zash Ge0rG: How much do you care about the total anyways?
  621. Maranda jonasw, I'll add something to handle those now.
  622. Ge0rG Zash: I care about my server not lagging to death.
  623. Ge0rG Zash: no idea how much MAM-enabled clients rely on the `count` value
  624. jonasw Zash, just exploit 313 and return number-of-items+1
  625. Holger Maranda: Yes, I think it's quite obvious that the idea behind 0059 is to specify *either* <before/> *or* <after/>, and this is just not made explicit because the author didn't even consider the possibility to specify both.
  626. Zash If you disable archive pruning, it stops counting.
  627. Holger So I think we can't just cheat and allow both in 0313.
  628. ChaosKid42 has joined
  629. Holger (Though I clearly see the use-case of course.)
  630. andy has joined
  631. jonasw lovetox suggested to use form fields instead of <before/>+<after/>, which I find sane
  632. Kev Holger: I don't think it's cheating, and we clearly can, because we have :)
  633. Holger jonasw: Yes, me too.
  634. Zash You break a MUST in 59 if you include both and the range is larger than one page
  635. Zash > first item [...] MUST be the item that immediately follows [...] in the <after/>
  636. Holger Kev: Well yes we can do ugly things, and I agree we have.
  637. intosi Zash: well spotted.
  638. jonasw Zash, only if you iterate backwards, or?
  639. Zash > last item in the page [...] MUST be the item that immediately preceeds [...]
  640. Ge0rG Zash: we can override a MUST with follow-up spec
  641. jonasw excellent
  642. Kev But doing before/after in 313 is possible. It's just going to get ugly specifying the same things twice.
  643. jonasw Ge0rG, but then clients need an implementation of RSM and one of MAM-RSM
  644. jonasw "just"
  645. Kev jonasw: They do anyway, in practical terms.
  646. Ge0rG jonasw: hm.
  647. jonasw Kev, do they?
  648. Holger jonasw: And servers.
  649. intosi RSM is very protocol specific anyway.
  650. Holger Kev: Why?
  651. Kev Sorry, not clients, servers. Clients don't.
  652. Holger Huh.
  653. jonasw I have an interface in mind which is completely agnostic to protocol which uses RSM by passing a function around.
  654. Zash jonasw: next?
  655. jonasw kinda
  656. jonasw where RSM would just be a building block to obtain an asynchronous iterator
  657. Zash jonasw: If I were building something today, I'd make it more like a file handle
  658. MattJ Requiring server-side state?
  659. jonasw and I’d like to keep it that way.
  660. jonasw server side state sounds awful
  661. intosi It is.
  662. MattJ It would be, yes
  663. jonasw (encode the state in an opaque base64 thing!)
  664. Zash MattJ: I have had the thought not limit ranges, and stash the iterator along with the current id, so one can resume from there :)
  665. Maranda and intosi, tbh why not just doing <before>uuid-that-was-after-then</before>...?
  666. intosi Cursors are not something you'd want to keep around for every query sent to your xmpp server :)
  667. Maranda intosi, that's what glitches
  668. Zash LRU cache or whatever
  669. Zash On the assumption that the client will likely ask for the next page right after the current, it might be worth it
  670. intosi Maranda: I don't understand your question, my head's only partially working.
  671. Maranda mine as well tbh lol, but <before/><after>uuid</after> sounds exactly like <before>uuid</before> in my head.
  672. intosi nope
  673. Zash Wat
  674. intosi <before/> is very specific: it's before EOF, which is something that doesn't have an UUID.
  675. intosi You can't specify before last uuid you know, because it will never return the last uuid you know, which may not even be the last uuid in the dataset in the first place.
  676. Maranda Hm ok.
  677. lovetox you try bend rsm to do what a simple query filter does a lot better
  678. lovetox if i can query MAM with end and start archive ids, and my result only contains whats in between
  679. lovetox i can use RSM to page forward backwards wahtever
  680. intosi That's exactly what RSM does.
  681. lovetox no
  682. intosi Yes
  683. andy has left
  684. jonasw no :)
  685. jonasw well, kinda
  686. lovetox RSM pages inside a Result
  687. jonasw yeah
  688. Zash <{dataform}x><field name=sql><value>SELECT * FROM archive WHERE whatever<///>
  689. lovetox it does not filter a result
  690. jonasw Zash, good idea
  691. intosi Zash: expecting your protoxep before CoB :)
  692. lovetox the Result of the server is the book, and with RSM you switch to a page
  693. lovetox what you try to do is to rip site 1-3 out of the result with rsm
  694. lovetox and create a new book
  695. Kev No, it's really not.
  696. intosi RSM is specific for a protocol, and we're talking 313, which clearly defines the uses of RSM.
  697. Zash lovetox: Hmm, epub over xmpp!
  698. Holger The part lovetox explained is not specific.
  699. j.r has joined
  700. Holger It's exactly the generic part specified in 0059.
  701. Holger If it's all specific then ditch 0059.
  702. Maranda ...
  703. Maranda well, until I understand clearly what to do with both and my brain doesn't kernel panic trying to I just think I'll throw an error.
  704. Zash Throw it all out, define the archive as a giant XML blob and do binary serialized xml delta transmission and reinvent wave?
  705. intosi We should've gone with IMAP from the start.
  706. Holger I really dislike how we keep bending/breaking our specs in other specs.
  707. j.r has joined
  708. Zash Holger: Myeah. Consistency is nice.
  709. lovetox RSM does a simple thing, and it does it nice
  710. lovetox if you want to have more elaborate querys for mam, just define fields for it
  711. lovetox like start-id, end-id
  712. Kev lovetox: For queries, yes.
  713. Kev But for getting pages from results, RSM is good at that.
  714. Kev It's just a shame that dealing with before/after isn't well specified.
  715. lovetox maybe i dont get it, i request a query from MAM with start-id, end-id
  716. Zash Is there anything preventing us from clarifying that?
  717. lovetox what exactly would i need before and after in the RSM page query afterwards?
  718. Zash Given multiple implementations doing something, sometimes, with it
  719. intosi Zash: clarifying sounds like a good idea.
  720. andy has joined
  721. Holger Kev: It's not well-specified because it goes against the 0059 model. You can't take your result book and page forward from page 15 *and* backward from page 30 at the same time.
  722. Maranda jonasw, *ducks* actually if before and after are currently present I *already* throw an error.
  723. Holger Kev: Right now you specify a page and a direction. With your change, before/after are no longer directions but boundaries.
  724. Maranda huhu
  725. Maranda jonasw, both of 'em that is.
  726. Zash Presence or lack of <before/> sets the direction atm
  727. lovetox exactly, and boundaries you specify in the MAM query, and not in the paging mechanism afterwards
  728. j.r has joined
  729. Zash So I think you can read it as <before>+<after> = backwards but stop at <after>
  730. Holger Kev: And you sound as if it was obvious that specifying both boundaries should set direction=before. This sounds is totally arbitrary to me.
  731. Holger Zash: Ugh.
  732. Maranda +1
  733. Zash Or does it explicitly say 'forward' if <after>?
  734. intosi Only before tells you anything about direction, IIRC.
  735. Kev We could ditch RSM from 313 completely and just go for something with the same semantics but different syntax, it just seems wrong to me.
  736. lovetox Oo
  737. Zash Oh please no
  738. Zash Isn't MAM done yet?
  739. Maranda Are we about to go back to archiving..? 😋😘 *troll intended*
  740. ChaosKid42 has left
  741. ChaosKid42 has joined
  742. dwd has joined
  743. lovetox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysf5o5xOGYE
  744. waqas has joined
  745. ChaosKid42 has left
  746. ChaosKid42 has joined
  747. Zash has left
  748. andy has left
  749. rtq3 has left
  750. rtq3 has joined
  751. suzyo has joined
  752. Zash has left
  753. Maranda has joined
  754. Zash has left
  755. Zash has joined
  756. andy has joined
  757. ChaosKid42 has left
  758. jubalh has left
  759. jubalh has joined
  760. jubalh has left
  761. suzyo has joined
  762. ChaosKid42 has joined
  763. andy has left
  764. andy has joined
  765. Guus has left
  766. vanitasvitae has left
  767. marmistrz has left
  768. Guus has left
  769. intosi has left
  770. intosi has joined
  771. Guus has left
  772. marmistrz has left
  773. Steve Kille has left
  774. Steve Kille has left
  775. ChaosKid42 has left
  776. waqas has left
  777. waqas has joined
  778. Steve Kille has joined
  779. andy has left
  780. daniel has left
  781. Fabian has left
  782. jubalh has joined
  783. Zash has left
  784. Seve/SouL has joined
  785. Guus has left
  786. had-hoc has joined
  787. mimi89999 has left
  788. Zash has left
  789. Fabian has joined
  790. intosi has left
  791. daniel has left
  792. peter has joined
  793. intosi has joined
  794. Tobias has joined
  795. Guus has left
  796. ralphm has left
  797. rion has left
  798. lovetox has left
  799. SamWhited has left
  800. Maranda has left
  801. andy has joined
  802. Maranda has left
  803. intosi has left
  804. jjrh has left
  805. andy has left
  806. daniel has left
  807. Guus has left
  808. Guus has left
  809. nyco has left
  810. jjrh has left
  811. Guus has left
  812. Guus has left
  813. Guus has left
  814. Seve/SouL has joined
  815. jjrh has left
  816. Ge0rG jonasw: thanks once again for your editorial work today
  817. Guus has left
  818. jjrh has left
  819. jjrh has left
  820. goffi has left
  821. Zash has left
  822. Zash has left
  823. Zash has left
  824. SaltyBones has left
  825. Guus has left
  826. mimi89999 has joined
  827. Syndace has left
  828. Syndace has joined
  829. Dave Cridland has left
  830. daniel has left
  831. Dave Cridland has left
  832. Dave Cridland has left
  833. Dave Cridland has left
  834. Dave Cridland has left
  835. jonasw yw
  836. andy has joined
  837. jubalh has joined
  838. valo has joined
  839. Yagiza has left
  840. andrey.g has left
  841. andy has left
  842. rion has joined
  843. j.r has left
  844. Dave Cridland has left
  845. dwd has left
  846. j.r has joined
  847. andy has joined
  848. waqas has left
  849. rion has left
  850. rion has joined
  851. j.r has joined
  852. lskdjf has left
  853. jubalh has joined
  854. j.r has joined
  855. dwd has left
  856. moparisthebest has joined
  857. vanitasvitae has left
  858. Dave Cridland has left
  859. andy has left
  860. Dave Cridland has left
  861. moparisthebest has left
  862. goffi has joined
  863. vanitasvitae has joined
  864. Dave Cridland has left
  865. andy has joined
  866. Dave Cridland has left
  867. andrey.g has joined
  868. Guus has left
  869. moparisthebest has joined
  870. jubalh has left
  871. rtq3 has left
  872. rtq3 has joined
  873. Dave Cridland has left
  874. dwd has left
  875. andy has left
  876. dwd has left
  877. Guus has left
  878. waqas has joined
  879. andy has joined
  880. la|r|ma has joined
  881. dwd has left
  882. stuxnet has left
  883. stuxnet has joined
  884. rtq3 has left
  885. stuxnet has left
  886. stuxnet has joined
  887. waqas has left
  888. waqas has joined
  889. marmistrz has left
  890. Fabian has left
  891. ralphm has joined
  892. j.r has left
  893. j.r has joined
  894. blabla has left
  895. Tobias has joined
  896. Tobias has joined
  897. lovetox has joined
  898. Dave Cridland has left
  899. rion has left
  900. j.r has joined
  901. rion has left
  902. stuxnet has left
  903. jere has joined
  904. Dave Cridland has left
  905. stuxnet has joined
  906. dwd has left
  907. Dave Cridland has left
  908. Dave Cridland has left
  909. Dave Cridland has left
  910. ralphm has left
  911. Dave Cridland has left
  912. Dave Cridland has left
  913. rion has joined
  914. SaltyBones has left
  915. rtq3 has joined
  916. Dave Cridland has left
  917. Dave Cridland has left
  918. Dave Cridland has left
  919. rion has left
  920. dwd has left
  921. daniel has left
  922. rtq3 has left
  923. rtq3 has joined
  924. tim@boese-ban.de has joined
  925. marmistrz has joined
  926. lskdjf has joined
  927. boothj5 has joined
  928. j.r has joined
  929. lskdjf has joined
  930. blabla has left
  931. marc has left
  932. Guus has left
  933. ralphm has joined
  934. Dave Cridland has left
  935. rtq3 has left
  936. rtq3 has joined
  937. stuxnet has left
  938. efrit has joined
  939. Dave Cridland has left
  940. j.r has joined
  941. j.r has joined
  942. suzyo has joined
  943. dwd has left
  944. andy has left
  945. j.r has joined
  946. j.r has joined
  947. andy has joined
  948. Dave Cridland has left
  949. dwd has left
  950. Dave Cridland has left
  951. Dave Cridland has left
  952. Dave Cridland has left
  953. stuxnet has joined
  954. Dave Cridland has left
  955. goffi has left
  956. rtq3 has joined
  957. rtq3 has joined
  958. daniel has left
  959. andrey.g has left
  960. andrey.g has joined
  961. jubalh has joined
  962. jubalh has joined
  963. jubalh has joined
  964. Dave Cridland has left
  965. dwd has left
  966. ralphm has joined
  967. Dave Cridland has left
  968. jubalh has left
  969. Dave Cridland has left
  970. Dave Cridland has left
  971. Zash has left
  972. ralphm has left
  973. boothj5 has left
  974. Dave Cridland has left
  975. Dave Cridland has left
  976. dwd has left
  977. Dave Cridland has left
  978. Dave Cridland has left
  979. lskdjf has left
  980. andy has left
  981. Dave Cridland has left
  982. Alex has left
  983. Guus has left
  984. dwd has left
  985. Dave Cridland has left
  986. dwd has left
  987. Dave Cridland has left
  988. Dave Cridland has left
  989. Alex has joined
  990. Dave Cridland has left
  991. marmistrz has left
  992. marmistrz has left
  993. rtq3 has left
  994. rtq3 has joined
  995. marmistrz has left
  996. marmistrz has joined
  997. marmistrz has joined
  998. boothj5 has joined
  999. daniel has left
  1000. Zash has left
  1001. lumi has left
  1002. SamWhited has left
  1003. SamWhited has left
  1004. tux has joined
  1005. daniel has left
  1006. rtq3 has left
  1007. jere has joined
  1008. jubalh has joined
  1009. lskdjf has left
  1010. lskdjf has left
  1011. lskdjf has left
  1012. jere has left
  1013. lskdjf has joined
  1014. jere has joined
  1015. lskdjf has left
  1016. blabla has left
  1017. lskdjf has left
  1018. jubalh has left
  1019. Dave Cridland has left
  1020. Dave Cridland has left
  1021. dwd has left
  1022. Dave Cridland has left
  1023. ralphm has joined
  1024. Dave Cridland has left
  1025. Dave Cridland has left
  1026. lskdjf has left
  1027. lskdjf has left
  1028. Dave Cridland has left
  1029. lskdjf has left
  1030. winfried has left
  1031. dwd has left
  1032. Dave Cridland has left
  1033. Alex has left
  1034. Alex has joined
  1035. Dave Cridland has left
  1036. Dave Cridland has left
  1037. lovetox has left
  1038. rtq3 has joined
  1039. dwd has left
  1040. Dave Cridland has left
  1041. Dave Cridland has left
  1042. Dave Cridland has left
  1043. Dave Cridland has left
  1044. Alex has left
  1045. Dave Cridland has left
  1046. Dave Cridland has left
  1047. daniel has left
  1048. Dave Cridland has left