XSF Discussion - 2018-03-07

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  394. jonasw {xep 155}
  395. Bunneh jonasw: Stanza Session Negotiation (Standards Track, Draft, 2016-01-20) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0155.html
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  401. Zash Are we devs going to drown in CFEs now?
  402. peter Yes, you are!
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  467. jonasw Zash, first the editors are going to drown in CFEs ;-)
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  478. Ge0rG Yay, I've got another change into XEP-0045! Two more and I've fixed it sufficiently to not need MIX any more! 🙌
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  481. Kev I'm not convinced :)
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  484. Kev Well, I guess if you switch it to work on bare JIDs, make occupancy persistent, synched with the user's server, and then add pubsub nodes you'd be most of the way there. You'd also have MIX.
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  486. jonasw Kev, MIX doesn’t really sync with the users server or does it?
  487. jonasw IIRC MIX does not handle s2s link downtimes
  488. Kev The state of which rooms you're in does.
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  496. Ge0rG jonasw: MIX contains strong words about ensuring consistency over s2s failures, but no hints for implementations on how to actually achieve that.
  497. jonasw something something s2s SM
  498. Ge0rG I'm really curious to see that play out in the wild.
  499. Ge0rG I've got popcorn and spectator seats.
  500. Ge0rG I might not even veto MIX in case it comes in fast enough
  501. daniel Ge0rG: that popcorn will be pretty stale by the time mix gets implemented
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  503. Ge0rG daniel: touché
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  506. SamWhited well played…
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  570. lovetox Servers MUST NOT include the <stanza-id/> element in messages addressed to JIDs that do not have permissions to access the archive, such as a users’s outgoing messages to their contacts. However servers SHOULD include the element as a child of the forwarded message when using Message Carbons (XEP-0280) [3]
  571. lovetox why is this a SHOULD?
  572. lovetox this makes the whole reason we have mam:2 useless
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  574. moparisthebest how do we go from "I made this strange but useful-to-me thing by tying 3 different proprietary silos together" to "I made this strange but useful-to-me thing with XMPP" ?
  575. moparisthebest https://www.twilio.com/blog/2018/03/iot-poop-button-python-twilio-aws.html
  576. moparisthebest is it that they don't know about XMPP or is it just shinier to use proprietary silos?
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  582. Ge0rG moparisthebest: it's because there are more people who know http than xmpp, and because xmpp just lacks the right abstraction layer for IoT
  583. SamWhited No, it's because it's infinitely easier to use proprietary silos that have good support and nice HTTP APIs.
  584. SamWhited (too late; what Ge0rG said)
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  586. moparisthebest all that looks way harder than how I'd probably do it, but meh
  587. fippo all xmpp needs is lots of dev advocates who write about poop buttons...
  588. Zash how will the poop button developers get paid?
  589. SamWhited true story; fippo ++
  590. waqas 💩
  591. jonasw Zash, shitty
  592. waqas 💸
  593. moparisthebest I've done similar things but I guess they just aren't fancy and I don't blog about them
  594. waqas I'm curious about how well emojis work in non-desktop XMPP clients
  595. Zash moparisthebest: Do things and talk about them.
  596. jonasw waqas, mobile you mean? pretty well
  597. SamWhited I'd think they would work better than on the desktop ones, no?
  598. Link Mauve waqas, in console it just works, if you have a recent enough glibc and a font.
  599. moparisthebest like when the amazon buttons came out, when you pushed it it sent out an ARP request, and I called sendxmpp
  600. Zash waqas: Better than on desktop probably
  601. moparisthebest but it's trivial, does that stuff require writing about?
  602. SamWhited On the more tightly controlled mobile system you presumably have nice built-in fonts for it and support in the application platform.
  603. jonasw need to figure out how to load my own font into QWebEngineView >.>
  604. waqas Zash: I was also thinking of CLI clients, do those actually show emojis well? I'd expect font issues
  605. Link Mauve waqas, yes.
  606. SamWhited moparisthebest: the problem with that statement is two fold: 1) it's probably not trivial for most people, 2) it's not about things being difficult, we don't need people to blog about difficult or complex things as much, we want to show that you can do things simply, so if it is actually trivial (or at least simple), blog away!
  607. jonasw waqas, https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/KmzOKUa0WA5-e_lLWT5Bx0s9lYxOaSOtqLcl1_tTv18.png
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  609. SamWhited Interesting, simple projects are what attract people who will spend a weekend doing it. If it's not trivial, most likely no one wants to waste too much time on it.
  610. Zash waqas: https://www.zash.se/upload/3sakjSXMvw0y.png
  611. Link Mauve waqas, https://linkmauve.fr/files/wayland-screenshot-2018-03-07_21-39-01.png
  612. Link Mauve Ah, too late.
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  614. moparisthebest I have a blog, but my last blog post was about new blog software on april 24th 2013 lol
  615. Zash Tho my screenshot has Ge0rGs plugin
  616. moparisthebest and the last one before that was a guest blog poster in 2006
  617. moparisthebest super active, in other words
  618. SamWhited my terminal is not that fancy :( https://i.imgur.com/SF16kJf.png
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  621. Ge0rG fippo: what we need is a compelling abstraction layer with appropriate libraries. Something where you define your sensors and actors in a human readable way, eg. "button, two-state", "230V relais", and then those objects automatically log into your private server and you can define rules like "button DEADBEEF triggers relais FOOBAR"
  622. moparisthebest that sounds like a tool you build using something like xmpp in the background
  623. SamWhited That seems a bit specific to IoT (I don't disagree, but I'd start with decent, well-documented libraries in a number of popular languages that hide the XMPP specifics from you as much as possible…)
  624. moparisthebest in general I'd say that's too much overhead and too restrictive
  625. moparisthebest but it seems like what all these proprietary APIs do, so maybe it's what people want
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  627. Ge0rG fippo: what we need is a compelling abstraction layer with appropriate libraries. Something where you define your sensors and actors in a human readable way, eg. "button, two-state", "230V relais", and then those objects automatically log into your private server and you can define rules like "button DEADBEEF triggers relais FOOBAR"
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  629. A̫̦͚̳̪͍ͧ̐̓̃̐lͥ̓̓̌ͧ̾e̺̰͉̣̝̺̱̎̈́̿ͯ̽͗ẋ̥̙͑ͩ̌ͨͤ has joined
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  632. Ge0rG SamWhited: yes, that's very specific to IoT, but it's something that we need to differentiate over MQTT, CoAP and other contenders
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  730. lovetox this call to experience
  731. lovetox should only people answer that implemented the xep fully?
  732. Zash It's kinda like Last Calls
  733. lovetox or is it in general of interest what parts are used for which use case in clients?
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  735. Zash goes to read what the posts actually say
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  738. SamWhited lovetox: why you didn't implement it or why you only partially did would be useful too.
  739. SamWhited use cases are great
  740. lovetox k thanks
  741. Zash If you feel that you can answer any of the questions then that's surely useful info.
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  755. jjrh https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16536254 'Slack' turning off their irc and XMPP gateways :p
  756. Zash whu
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  762. Link Mauve Or how walled gardens first expose standard protocols to get the nerd crowds to root for them, and once they obtain some critical mass stop with that.
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  766. ThurahT who needs/use slack anyway...
  767. ThurahT matrix otoh is somewhat useful.
  768. ThurahT still <3 XMPP.
  769. Link Mauve ThurahT, a few millions of users, at least.
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  771. waqas The answer to "who needs/use slack" is a fairly large set of organizations :)
  772. ThurahT inconceivable!
  773. Link Mauve I’ve had to use it for a client.
  774. Zash waqas: You gon' have fun now?
  775. waqas My company uses it. There's quite a bit in the UX that I wish XMPP clients had.