Link Mauvewaqas, I haven’t used it in a long time, could you write those down somewhere?
jjrhXMPP could use a pretty webclient.
ZashPretty according to whom?
ZashBut yeah. Do it. Hire UX engineers and graphics designers and a huge marketing department and do it! :)
jjrhaccording to whatever the designers who make pretty but non functional UI's people love.
jjrhconverse.js is pretty good
jjrhmovim is pretty good but one would have to pull out all the other stuff so it's easy to just throw it up on a webserver
waqasIt's very much optimized for "communicate with the org". There's the basic MUC-like part. Room discovery+creation is much better than most other clients. Search is a big deal. Room history (reading it, and coming back to a room after being away for a while) works better than any XMPP client I've used so far. Multi-user private chats (temp MUCs?) are very easy and very actively used. File sharing (within a MUC or single user chat stream) is actively used. Threads are started to catch on, and leading to easier conversation in active rooms. Slack bots are cool (and there are many, tied to services that can be used without any ops overhead). The team overall finds things like "/giphy", emojis and custom emjois fun. We don't like the audio/video function, as it's always breaking for somebody. Nobody likes how heavy/slow the client is.
waqasMy off the cuff summary ^
mathieuihah, they had to restart their irc server 3 times this evening to add the banner warning about the death of gateways
waqasThe price/user is basically irrelevant. It's under $10/user, and for an actual business that's just noise on the balance sheet. The ops free nature is attractive.
jjrhLast time I used slack in the browser it had some serious performance issues
waqasIt's slow and bloated. I use it in the browser only, and don't use the "native" app.
mathieuiit still does, waqas addressed that already
Link MauveThanks waqas.
ZashBut is it slow and bloated enough for the higher ups to care?
jjrhThere was something very wrong - like I would leave the window open for a day and come back and the browser had some to a halt - I started running it in firefox
Zash(I assume not)
jjrh*come to a halt
waqasZash: The lower-downs want it. Because it's as close to friction-free as I've seen anything get for various team chat scenarios.
peteragrees with waqas on all points
waqasSlack in our org was not something that management mandated, it was something that people on the grounded tested out and wanted. I assume that's how it gained massive popularity.
jjrhI think the main attraction to slack is it's easy to use and setup your own private space, and even though the client isn't amazing it's good enough and just a webpage. Easy way to onboard people.
peterAlthough I hate hate hate Slack threads.
jjrhcompared to slack I think for casual stuff discord got it way more right - send you a i
jjrh*a 'invite' link - you don't need to give your email or anything, just enter your name
jjrhthen we can use voice chat, chat, etc.
Zashjonasw: editor issue, are these CFE's meant to include the text about advancing to final?
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waqasNote that our org used to be an XMPP-using one. One of the things that caused hate for XMPP: Jabber file transfer never worked. Root causes varied, everything network issues to client issues to bad client UX. It was a running joke.
jjrhMy friend was just complaining to me that conversations prompts which resource to send a file to.
jjrhI don't think I have ever sent a file over xmpp but isn't it a lot better now with http upload?
waqasAnd we transitioned to slack over time, the engineering team was the last holdout, but eventually everyone gave in to the "ease of everything"
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jjrhJust tried now with movim sending to this account. It was pretty painless. Went to my phone and gajim without issue :)
jjrhoh weird - I tried to send a image from conversations to the movim account and it is prompting me to choose from 3 resources. I'm guessing this doesn't happen with http upload
ZashNo upload service available?
jjrhyeah that's my guess. I don't think my server has http upload (we never send files over chat)
jjrhoh weird hah I try and send it and my browser pops up with "is trying to call you"
ZashWell, it got Jingle payloads confused?
jjrhI guess so?
jjrhdoes http upload play nice with omemo or is it unencrypted?
ZashHTTP upload doesn't really need to know what the bytes you stuff in it are
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ZashNot sure how standardized the encryption methods in common user are
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jjrhyeah looks like the file is encrypted then the key is exchanged over the secure session
jjrhhttps://conversations.im/omemo/audit.pdf
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moparisthebest> waqas: Note that our org used to be an XMPP-using one. One of the things that caused hate for XMPP: Jabber file transfer never worked. Root causes varied, everything network issues to client issues to bad client UX. It was a running joke.
moparisthebestoh he left, but my work uses lync or now skype for business
moparisthebestand file transfers essentially never work
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jonaswZash, pretty sure, yeah. that’s what a CFE is about
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jonasw> Just about every client, library and server (indirectly, via either storage mechanism) I've ever seen.
except Pidgin.✎
jonasw>> 1. What software has XEP-0048 implemented?
> Just about every client, library and server (indirectly, via either storage mechanism) I've ever seen.
except Pidgin. ✏
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danieljonasw: pidgin doesn't have bookmarks?
danielReally
jonaswdaniel, yeah
jonaswMUCs are only in their local roster
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MattJjonasw, daniel: Pidgin does support it, but only in a plugin that's not enabled by default
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jonaswMattJ, how’s that called? it doesn’t seem to be installed by default on debian
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jonaswmaybe in the "pidgin-plugin-pack"
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Ge0rGI imagine pidgin-plugins-bad and pidgin-plugins-ugly, gstreamer style
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jonaswhah
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jonaswin case of pidgin it would rather be: pidgin-plugins-normal, pidgin-plugins-without-zerodays
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jonasw(at least so I heard)
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jonaswin the case of pidgin I’d also be worried what it’ll do to my already existing bookmarks when I turn the plugin on. on either side of the wire.
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Ge0rG> In addition, the service SHOULD send an invitation to any user who has been added to the member list of a members-only room if the user is not currently affiliated with the room
Nice things you discover in 0045 by accident.
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Ge0rGKev: I'm confused by what you said yesterday in the meeting. The muc_* features seem to actually be used as runtime configuration options, but the XEP only ever talks of them as being supported features
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KevGive me an hour to wake up, and then I can think about this
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Ge0rGstarts timer
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TobiasGe0rG, here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTyN-vvFIkE
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Ge0rGTobias: that's perfect!
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intosiGreat score while I wait for some integration tests to complete.
jonasw
Opened 10 years ago
Last modified 4 years ago
jonaswsweeeet
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KevGe0rG: As far as I can see, the 'features' are done as http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something, while current room configuration is done as muc_something.
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jonaswKev, Example 9
jonasw(in § 6.4 Querying for Room Information)
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Ge0rGKev: while I agree from reading the examples, this is not really answering my question.
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KevWhat was the question, then? :)
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Ge0rGKev: besides, there are no *features* with http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something in the XEP, nor in any other XEPs.
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Ge0rGKev: my question is, how you came to the conclusion that http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something are features and muc_something are runtime options.
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Ge0rGSo far the only supporting document I found is: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0307.html#support
> If a MUC service supports the protocol specified herein, it MUST advertise that fact by returning a feature of "http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#unique" in response to Service Discovery (XEP-0030)
KevJust that the first three http... features are 'Support for...', wile the others are descriptive.
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KevBut happy to be wrong, just push it as-is.
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Ge0rGKev: oh, I feel like I'm in a position to actually improve 0045 now, I won't abuse my powers to do a half-assed job.
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Ge0rG> Support for reflecting the original message 'id' in 'groupchat' messages.
Sounds kind of weird. I'll leave the original wording.
KevTa. I'm more comfortable with this, whether I should be or not.
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Ge0rGDo we have all council votes together then?
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KevThink so.
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Ge0rGFrom the MUC logs, I haven't explicitly voted on that one.
Ge0rGjonasw: you can merge https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600 now, thanks :)
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jonaswGe0rG, there you go
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Ge0rG> Pull request successfully merged and closed
👏
jonaswwhere did my mail about xep-0020 go though
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Ge0rGI see one titled [Standards] DEPRECATED: XEP-0020 (Feature Negotiation)
jonaswah, just took a while
jonasw(weirdly, it appeared several minutes after the UPDATED: XEP-0153 one)
jonaswmaybe funny lag between the mailservers :)
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Dave Cridlandjonasw, Konstantin noted that "Deprecating is not a serious problem" for XEP-0071 and that got me thinking - didn't Council vote to Deprecate, not Obsolete? Or am I misremembering?
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jonaswhuh
jonaswyou are indeed right
jonaswthat’s my fault, I’m going to rectify this immediately
jonaswwell, editors fault at least
goffiThe references to XHTML-IM in other XEPs should be removed, I know there is at least one in XEP-0277
goffi(and anyway current implementations i.e. Movim and SàT, use full XHTML)
Dave Cridlandjonasw, Thanks.
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jonaswthis is a busy day for the xeps repository :)
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goffihttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16539857 (slack is closing XMPP gateway, which was shitty anyway)
waqasgoffi: Can you comment on how bad the gateway was?
goffiwaqas: it's really basic, not implemeting any advanced feature, it's hard to join or discover rooms.
waqasgoffi: How does it handle multi-user PMs? Temp MUC invites? And what about threads?
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goffiwaqas: you have MUC room named from pseudos, something like mpdm-[nick_1]--[nick_2]--[nick_3]--[your_nick]@your_company.xmpp.slack.com
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goffiwaqas: to give you an idea, here is the disco of the server:
goffiGe0rG: I think there was one for libpurple, but unmaintained
Ge0rGSo spectrum again. That software stack provides me with nightmares
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Ge0rG> I sooooo regret even having the IRC gateway.
Slack CEO https://twitter.com/stewart/status/817483176687718400
Ge0rGThe thread is awesome
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Ge0rGHandicapped users will appreciate that slack "is working on" accessibility.
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Link Mauvejonasw, “Note that I intend to overhaul XEP-0394 and I don’t know any implementations.” about Message Markup, well, slixmpp has had one since day one. ^^'
jonaswis that used in a client?
Link MauveI think poezio will use it if there is no XHTML-IM alongside.
jonaswI see
Link MauveOtherwise it will prefer XHTML-IM.
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Ge0rGLink Mauve: what does "alongside" mean?
Ge0rGOn the receiving end?
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Link MauveYes.
Link MauveOn the displaying end, more specifically.
Ge0rGAh, so it's not sending it.
Link MauveNope.
Ge0rGWhat about displaying *Styling* instead of ~markup~?
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Link MauveI couldn’t find a good way to mangle our composing format into either of these new XEPs yet.
Link MauveThey are way too poor to express this format.
Ge0rGThe good thing about Styling is that you don't need to mangle anything, you can just live-apply the styling to the input box
Link MauveThat means changing our input format for something that can’t be disabled.
Link MauveCurrently all styling we have is opt-in by using keybinds.
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Link MauveI can write *stars and bold stars*, and these aren’t coupled in any way.
Link MauveWith styling you can’t disable that.
Link MauveIf you want to put the emphasis on a specific word without displaying the stars around, for instance.
Link MauveBut people have been listing these issues for a long time on the mailing list and here, yet people didn’t care in any way about them, so I don’t think I have much else to add.
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Ge0rGLink Mauve: I'm aware of the arguments, and I even used to be a proponent of the explicit approach before I tested Styling. It's an easy and compelling way to markup things, and it even works over IRC transports!
Link MauveXHTML-IM also works over IRC transports. ^^'
Ge0rGLink Mauve: I'd like to hear your definition of "work" bent sufficiently to support your statement.
jonaswGe0rG, biboumi converts XHTML-IM to actual IRC markup
jonaswand vice versa
jonaswthere’s no bending there
jonaswit’s actually done, including colors
jonaswit’s insane
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jonasw(and incredibly cool)
Link MauveIRC has approximately the same limitations as a console client, it can only change boldness, italics, invert and colours, but it works quite well for those parts.
Ge0rGI agree with that statement
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Link MauveSo I don’t buy the argument that biboumi should convert my ~~words or **words into IRC colours, that’s removing formatting fun and adding complexity when the recipient doesn’t see what you wanted to send.
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Ge0rGI was rather thinking about clients that already support ** and __
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Link MauveAnd those that will have to be changed because they assigned another meaning to them before.
Link MauveFurther increasing confusion.
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mathieuijonasw, I though biboumi only did one-way converting?
jonaswmathieui, hm, dunno; I have seen coloured things already.
jonaswI think at least.
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mathieuiyeah, from IRC it works but I don’t think the xhtml-im → IRC is even implemented
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pep.Reading the xhtml-im deprecation thread, I realized that people are not even aware of 0001. Changing Draft to something else wasn't bad but probably not enough
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moparisthebestpep., until someone invents a device that can slap another person over the internet what else can be done?
moparisthebest(I *really* want one of those devices)
jonasw"stab someone into the face over standard tcp/ip"
pep.moparisthebest the (in)famous slapper
moparisthebestwell it'd need to bypass firewalls and NAT so I'd vote over HTTPS :P
jonaswpep., tbf, I wasn’t aware of 0001 until I started authoring XEPs either
Maranda👨💻🖐️🤚👊
jonasw/kickban moparisthebest stop making people sad :(
pep.jonasw, sure, same for me, it took a while
moparisthebestsee jonasw , you could have used the slapping device on me right then...
jonasws/slapping/stabbing/ pls
jonaswneed to be more rigorous here ;-)
pep.jonasw, we're not criminals
pep.Or I'm out!
jonaswohkay ohkay
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Marandapep. lies.
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nycoboard meeting in 5?
SaltyBonesGe0rG, you'll love this: http://friedberger-nachhilfe.de/ a website that requires you to fill out a captcha to VIEW it :)
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Ge0rGSaltyBones: wfm
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Dave Cridlandpep., FWIW, the website portal for the XEPs (ie, https://xmpp.org/extensions/) could probably use a link to it, even though it's the first one listed.
Dave CridlandAlso it says you can show/hide the various *types* of XEP, when it then shows Statuses.
moparisthebestSaltyBones, that's what cloudflare does as a company
Dave CridlandSaltyBones, You're using Tor, I assume?
Dave Cridlandnyco, Also, yes. Although I was distracting Guus, so I may have made him late.
nycoit's now
GuusI'm here.
GuusMartin excused himself
GuusRalphm, MattJ?
nycoMatthew and Ralph are around
MattJHere
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Guusnyco, did you talk to Ralph just now, or were you only observing that he's in this MUC?
nycotalked
nyco5 min ago
nycooops, no
Guusthat was me
Guusthe other handsome Dutch guy :)
nycolet's still start? and end on time?
Guusagreed
nycohttps://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
GuusDo you want to take this one?
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SaltyBonesmoparisthebest, Dave Cridland no, without Tor! Indeed it's not funny otherwise. :p
Guusbangs a gavel
Guus1. Role Call and agenda
GuusWe've established who's here. Anything else for the agenda?
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nyconone from me
MattJNor me
Guus2. Confirm minute taker
GuusWho would be so kind?
Guus>awkward silence<
GuusI'll type them based on the logs then
nycothx
Guus3. Topics for decision
Guus3.1: Board Priorities 2018
Guuswe're holding off for that meeting, right?
nycoyep
nycostill waiting for answers
nycoregarding preferred dates and times
Guusnyco is working on that, I think, given that you asked me about availability earlier
nycocorrect
Guusanything we can add to that here and now?
nycoprobably in two weeks, afaik
Guusok, thanks
Guus3.2: Bus factor / bank account
nycoapart from availabilities, if you got to push something regarding the organisation, feel free
GuusAs promised last week, I've reached out to Peter for an update, But have not heard back yet. I'll prod again.
Guus(nyco, re prio meeting - I don't but I'll include that invitation in the minutes for others)
Guus4. Reviewing commitment list
Guuswe've covered the prio meeting
GuusRalph expressed earlier that he wants to hold off the ED replacement search until after the prio meeting
MattJwfm
nycodo we have to wait?
MattJNo, but I think we'd prefer to
Guusnyco, I'm not sure if we _have_ to. I'm still unsure exactly what entails that role - which might tie into the prio meeting.
MattJPart of the problem is that we can't find people for the role until we can exactly define what the role is :)
nycogot it
Guusthe third card, adding commits - I think we'll cover that in that meeting too. Nothing much to do there now, I think?
nycoagree
nycoarchive?
Guusmaybe put in a different lane for prio meeting?
nycosure
Guusor just leave it for now, meh. I don't have a strong preference.
GuusLast card, drafting a membership survey - Mattj, did you get around to prepare something?
MattJI didn't yet, sorry
nycoif you need help, please ask
GuusCan I tempt you for an ETA? :)
MattJNext week? :)
Guusawesome :)
nycoit's not that I'm good at it, I'd rather have someone really competent to do it, but I have a few insights that I'd to have confirmed/invalidated
nyco+1W
Guusnyco, you did the last one, didn't you? That gave good results.
MattJnyco, I'm not claiming to be especially competent at it... if you have some ideas, feel free to share, or take it on yourself
MattJI just feel it should be done
nycook then I'll push you the few questions/doubts I have, you do what you do of them, ok?
GuusPerhaps you guys discuss this between the two of you, out of band?
nycook
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MattJwfm
Guus5. Items for discussion
Guus5.1 Fundraising and financing
nycoif we do that conference, we may be able to generate some money?
GuusI'd actually would like us to look at that in more detail, but perhaps that should be prepared for better.
nycocan be a board prio, btw
nycothis may mean we'll discuss that during the prio meeting
GuusI think addressing the money issue is something that we're responsible for anyway, wether or not it's a prio.
nycototally
GuusI think it might be good to not heap to much on that already very broad meeting.
nycomakes sense
GuusLet me prepare for specific financial / fund-related talking points for next meeting - unless someone wants to add something now.
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GuusI'll take that as an 'ok'
Guus6. AOB
Guusanyone?
nyconope
MattJNone here
Guusfrom the floor perhaps?
Guus7. Time / date of next
GuusI'll be unavailable next week
nyco+1W
MattJNext week works for me
Guusbut if you guys are available, I'm ok to skip one.
Guusok, two out of four will be there. It's likely that you'll get at least one more, I think
nycoRalph and Marint may like to join
MattJI think we should continue unless others also indicate they can't make it
Guuslets do +1W
Guuswe are in agreement
Guusbangs gavel
nycothx MattJ and Guus! ;-)
Guusthank you guys
MattJThanks Guus
SyndaceSorry I didn't see there was official stuff going on at first and didn't want to interrupt (isn't this the wrong MUC?).
Anways what I wanted to tell you: OH MY GOD I just successfully signed and verified messages using my XEdDSA python implementation! Prepare for a new OMEMO lib guys :)
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MattJSyndace, great news :)
nycono pb Syndace
Guus\o/
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MattJI'd say that's relevant to this MUC, it's on average used for official meetings for 30 minutes every week
nycooh memo!
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Guus24 this week, we were being efficient ;)
vanitasvitaeSyndace, wow nice!
vanitasvitaeIt would be interesting to make java port at some point, to create smack-omemo-syndace 😀
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SyndaceHaha thanks guys! 😁
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goffiSyndace: great, any idea when we could test a public repos ?
jonaswSyndace, amazing!
jonaswcongrats
SyndaceWell most of it is already prepared and I just need to switch the flag from private to public on GitHub. I hope it'll be a thing of one or two weeks (but I tend to underestimate developement time :D )
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jonaswwhy don’t you switch it to public right now?
jonaswtack a huge "UNAUDITED CODE" warning on it and go for it
goffiSyndace: will Python 2 be supported ?
jonaswI hope not.
jonaswpython 2 won’t be supported at all anymore in 2 years time
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Syndacejonasw, I thought about this but I really want it at least to work before I make it public
goffijonasw: yes I know
jonaswSyndace, I thought it does now?
jonaswotherwise it makes sense :)
SyndaceYeah Python 2 is supported (actually I don't know whether Python 3 is supported)
jonaswaand I lost interest.
jonasw;)
SyndaceThe last piece is working but not integrated yet
jonaswseriously though: python2 is going to die soon-ish. if there are issues with py3, I’ll be happy to help out
goffijonasw: not all software have switched yet, so python 2 support is good news for now
goffiSyndace: for me Python 2 support is interesting only for a couple of months (until I fully switch to Python 3), but the support is really good news as it means I can start implementation quickly.
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SyndaceGood to hear. When I started working with Python about two years ago I was forced to use Python 2 because one of our dependencies did not support version 3 and I kind of stuck to it. I know of most of the differences though and I think I wrote the code to work in both versions equally.
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jonaswSyndace, tip: set up travis CI (or another CI) tests for each version you’d like to support
jonaswit’s actually quite trivial to do with github
goffiSyndace: I was also stuck by dependency (Twisted), but the port is done now.
jonaswstill need to figure out how to integrate that in my test suite.
jonasw> Send “PI”, “comment”, “DTD” or “entity” to xmpp:example.com/conformance, while directly connected to the Prosody instance.
jonaswas <body/> in a <message/>?
ZashYes
moparisthebestjonasw, is python 2 going to die soonish though?
moparisthebestbecause it seems like 2 and 3 will live on all computers forever at this point
jonaswmoparisthebest, once upstream support is done, I’ll start to bug every project still using it.
moparisthebestpython 3 is like MIX except there are actual users
jjrhI wish distros would stop encouraging pidgin (aka not installing it by default) because pidgin - least last time I used it - was really really bad for XMPP
jjrhall the "why does this happen???" xmpp issues were resolved when I switched to gajim
ZashJack of all trades
jjrhBut what does it actually do besides XMPP and IRC?
jonaswCeterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
ZashThey don't ship Pidgin for its XMPP capabilities
jonaswjjrh, ICQ, Facebook(?), …
jjrhDoes anyone actually use ICQ anymore? Facebook is broken for sure.
jonaswdunno
jjrhlike don't get me wrong 10 years ago gaim was great
jjrhbut these days everything is mostly "use a browser and be lucky if it even sorta works with a native client"
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jjrhLike I used to use bitlbee for facebook chat for a long time but eventually it stopped working and a whole bunch of features like group chats didn't work so I gave up and just open messenger.com
moparisthebestdo non-tech people even use desktops/laptops anymore?
moparisthebestmy mom and wife haven't used one in years at this point
jonasw(I sure hope those are distinct people)
moparisthebestthey just do everything on their phones
moparisthebesthaha yes jonasw
jonaswah yeah, plural
jonaswthe first four words are not unambiguous
jjrhWell I have been trying to convince folks at my work to use gajim instead of pidgin - it's slow going.
jjrhone person is all "it doesn't have IRC so I don't want it" Like comeon - IRC in pidgin really really sucks.... just use xchat if you want a gui
jonaswjjrh, deploy a biboumi
jonaswamazing IRC<->XMPP gateway
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jjrhHow does that work? is it just a irc bouncer?
Ge0rGis a long-time hard-core XMPP user and is almost happy with biboumi
Ge0rGjjrh: it allows you to use all your xmpp clients on IRC, at the same time
jonaswjjrh, https://biboumi.louiz.org/
jonaswit maps IRC to MUCs
jonaswpretty great
jjrhYeah so it's just a bouncer - neat.
jjrhHow does it work for the authentication? You configure that all through your XMPP client or do you need to configure the biboumi gateway?
moparisthebestyou configure it through ad-hock commands, so you need like gajim
jonaswjjrh, yeah, ad-hoc commands.
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moparisthebestwow extra k where did that come from
jjrhAh cool. So what is it SASL? works.
moparisthebestbut once configured, it works great with conversations and such too
jonaswit doesn’t do SASL AFAIK
jonaswbut you can add a PRIVMSG to nickserv on startup if that helps.
moparisthebestmost IRC servers, I think freenode too, just lets you send your nickserv password as the server password
jjrhyeah so it's not the end of the world.
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jjrhI think i'll give it a go - would make one aspect of my life a little easier. Tunneling the weechat remote over ssh on my phone is not great.
jonaswoh yes
jonaswjust make sure you don’t allow remotes to (ab-)use your biboumi
jjrhYeah I can see spammers going to down with that :P
jjrh*town
jjrhI started reading xep-0369 - has anyone implemented it yet?
moparisthebestiirc there is 1 proprietary server implementation and 1 open source almost-implementation
moparisthebestbut no it's basically vapourware
jjrhI guess SWIFT client has support
jjrhI see a request on prosody - whats the open source server implementation? ejabberd?
moparisthebestit tries to solve every use-case on the planet, far too complicated if you just want good multi-user chat, in my opinion of course
moparisthebestI want to say openfire...
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jjrhhaven't finished reading the spec yet but I'll agree it is rather complicated. It however gets much much closer to being like 'slack' where you're a 'member' of a room but not necessarily active.
jonaswIMO MIX is rather sane by now, feature-set wise
jonaswit solves some nastiness of MUC
jonasw(speaking as a client developer)
moparisthebestthere are other things to do this https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-light.html https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/xmpp-clients-bots/proposed-extensions/muc-sub/
jonaswmy main issue with it is that it integrates weirdly with the roster.
moparisthebestI have no comment as to whether they are better/worse than MIX
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jjrhThat functionality would be useful for certain types of deployments - aka a company XMPP server where new users get automatically setup with all the varying rooms - so they /see/ what's there not necessarily actively participating.
jonaswdon’t link things in /inbox/ as "there *are* other things"
moparisthebestit is a thing isn't it jonasw ? :P
jonaswdepends
jonaswjjrh, you can do that with autojoin-bookmarks (many clients will follow them) for MUC too
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jonaswMIX mainly has the advantage that an *account* is joined and not an individual client. this makes things simpler because it takes the load off the client regarding keeping state in sync.
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jjrhYep, but you still will get the "Someone has mentioned your name" pop up
jonaswyeah, that’s true for both MIX and MUC?
jjrhDon't you need to be /in/ the room with a client for MUC?
jjrhnot just bookmarked
jonaswyou need to
jonaswbut most clients will follow autojoin-bookmarks
jonaswso if you put them in their account on sign up, they will be joined right away
jonaswpidgin will of course not, because pidgin is stupid
jjrhRight but if I close the window i'm sol
jonaswI don’t know what "sol" means
jjrhshit out of luck
jonaswbut if you close the window and your client takes that as "leave this chat" it might very well make you leave from the MIX.
jonaswthat’s not a protocol issue
jjrhI read this idea as I have jonasw as a member of xsf - with the theory that I should be able to signal your attention to that room without your client actively listening / receiving all the junk going on. You may also want your phone to only have the alerts / important information open and not all the other channels you participate in - but you still want to be queried on your phone when someone says "jonasw did you forget we have a meeting today?" in xsf
ralphmGuus, others, apologies, I need to play taxi unexpectedly✎
ralphmGuus, others, apologies, I needed to play taxi unexpectedly ✏
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jonaswjjrh, the client will always receive all messages from a MIX room your account is joined to
jonaswindependent on whether you are mentioned or whatnot
jjrhI thought the whole idea of keeping you as a 'member' of a room was for situations where you might not want your phone sitting in a really busy support channel because it eats up a lot of data but on your desktop client you don't care
jonaswno
jonaswthe idea is that you don’t get removed from a room just because right now none of your clients is online
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jjrhAh. That would be a neat feature to have - having your phone only subscribe to the pubsub node and when you say my name or 'signal' me somehow from the context of the chat room my client would alert me i'm needed. Also be a handy feature for things like I want to get important notifications about prosody - and may want to weigh in - but the majority of the time not looking at that window. Stuff like a broadcast that there is a majority vulnerability and you should upgrade asap, or a new version release.
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jonaswthere is no pubsub node which does that
jonasw(in MIX)
jonaswof course, using pubsub nodes for such announcements would be an interesting, but also totally separate concept.
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jjrhIn the little free time I have at the moment i'm trying to get to the point of understanding the gajim codebase enough to implement better pubsub support to do stuff like alerts/notifications. Instead of having a MUC bot dump git commits that would be a pubsub node - and ideally sub nodes for different branches, so I can subscribe to say a feature branch that interests me or conflicts with my work. (but majority of people aren't concerned with that)
jonaswthere is subscribe-options which could do that -- if you’re running a specialized pubsub-service
moparisthebestkind of like a mailing list type thing?
jonaswwhich should be trivial to do; a pubsub service can be run on a resource IIRC
moparisthebestcould be interesting
jonaswI need to implement a skeleton for a pubsub service in aioxmpp, so that I can deploy bots which act as pubsub services.
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jjrhMy thought is more instead of getting my inbox spammed with nagios alerts I would get pubsub notifications. Ideally doing something smart like having different nodes for various servers. I got the idea from moparisthebest 's sendmail xmpp thingy - have a email account you add to receive alerts to and a bot thingy that converts the emails to xmpp pubsub nodes or msg/muc. Everything already supports email so the overhead to support this is just adding another email to receive the notification.
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jjrhI did something sorta like this for email alerts to SIP SIMPLE.
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moparisthebestthat would be interesting for mailing lists like all the xsf ones
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jjrhYep. Just about everything supports at least email so you're not writting a plugin for all the different platforms.
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moparisthebest'mailing lists in xmpp' seems to be something that someone else would have thought of and implemented already
moparisthebestI wonder if there isn't already a XEP
jjrhThe thing is I haven't found any clients that really have good pubsub support
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KevWhat does "Really good pubsub support" mean in a client?
KevPubsub is used in the context of things, rather than as a thing on its own.
jonaswKev, I think actually just subscribing to a node and receiving messages from it.
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jjrhI would see - for this case - a window that I can browse. Like movim does
jjrhSorta like a RSS reader I guess
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KevNeither of those sound like a generic client thing to me.
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KevYou subscribe to the node in the context of something specific (e.g. Swift will soon support subscribing to FDP nodes)
MattJWhat is a generic client? :)
KevA think a client should generically support.
MattJI think IM client would be how I'd describe what you're describing
MattJSince an XMPP pubsub feed reader is also a client (yes, I'm being picky, but just trying to clarify the conversation)
KevFair.
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jjrhhttps://i.imgur.com/BU0T7s3.jpg
jjrhsomething like that - a window that lets you navigate the hierarchy and new nodes would obviously ping you.
moparisthebestjjrh, but is it like a mailing list, can you reply to specific nodes :)
Ge0rG> For example we may rename XEP-0393 to "Markdown"
That made my day.
moparisthebestI really like it either way
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jjrhNot sure - it's just the idea I have in my head. Just being able to view this stuff more easily in a client would be useful.
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Ge0rG> Also if we'd do that, we'd have "Message Markup" and "Message Markdown"...
Where can I vote on that? 🤣
moparisthebestjjrh, I'm not a UI guy at all, that seems great for desktop, but how would it look in mobile?
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jjrhNot a UI guy either - so no clue, I would probably look at how email mobile apps do threading
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Yagizamoparisthebest, as for XEP-0393, I'm sure its implementation will be awful both on desktop and mobile.
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jjrhbut probably something like showing the top level stuff, then you click 'security' and then it shows all the sub nodes for that and so on. For new alerts you would just get a notification showing you what it is (kinda like a new email notification - you get the first 15 words or whatever in the notification)
moparisthebestYagiza, do you mean https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html ? 393 is the styling one and it's already great everywhere :)
Yagizamoparisthebest, I'm sure not so great.
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Yagizamoparisthebest, XEP-0369 is interesting but seems somewhat complicated, so needs further investigations.
moparisthebestYagiza, gajim and most other desktop clients, including IRC and email implemented basically 393 before it existed, conversations implemented it immediatly
moparisthebestI don't see the problem at all
jjrhI'll probably initially - specifically for email alerts - just dump them to a MUC channel (or private msg) which will work with every XMPP client. This would work /today/ with all the XMPP clients. (the main users I have in mind are on a proprietary client)
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jjrhkinda stole your sendmail idea moparisthebest and did a hack job with a libstrophe example to send me a private message from a git hook. The server with git on it doesn't have python 3 and all that stuff and I couldn't get rust to cross compile to 32bit so C was easiest.
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moparisthebestit wasn't really my idea, perl sendmail is super ancient and didn't work with my server, I copied/hacked that python one from someone else to do PGP and such, then an openssl upgrade broke python and I hacked the rust one together :P
moparisthebest*perl sendxmpp
jjrhWell I got the idea from /your/ code. :)
moparisthebeststill if you wrote a C sendxmpp you should put that code someplace public :)
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moparisthebestwait, 32 bit server in 2018? interesting :)
ZashI wonder if I still have my sendxmpp-curl somewhere
jjrhI don't want to talk about it haha
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jjrhI was as surprised as you were
Zashmoparisthebest: Hey, you leave my supercomputer alone!
ZashIt was cool in 2003
moparisthebestZash, you added xmpp to curl?
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Zashmoparisthebest: No, I wrote a plugin for Prosody that received stuff over HTTP and a curl wrapper compatible with sendxmpp
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Zashhttps://modules.prosody.im/mod_post_msg.html 8 years ago!
jjrhBut 'wrote' is a bit of a stretch, I found some example from a PR and glued it together. I'll throw it up somewhere. Right now it's just a make target for libstrophe since I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to correctly link it.
moparisthebestah ok, neat
moparisthebestadding xmpp to curl would also be neat
moparisthebestit does imap and smtp and such, why not xmpp
jjrhbut it works, I get a private message when someone pushes :)
moparisthebestI switched most of my cronjobs/alerts to sendxmpp over sendmail years ago, but it has the downside of some messages are obnoxiously big for xmpp
moparisthebestI broke conversations once, now it has a character limit and messages get truncated
jjrhI'd like to add a bit of stuff so it uses ~/.config/sendxmpp.toml and is just a C version of sendxmpp
moparisthebestjjrh, did you try https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc
moparisthebestin theory it'd work for you but I never tried it (compiles rust to C)
moparisthebestwell cross compiling to 32 bit linux should work too...
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jjrhNah they only show x86-64 targets - I didn't actually get libstrophe to cross compile, I got the same issue as I did trying with rust some issue with SSL. The reason C worked well is because I could just compile it on the 32bit machine without installing anything new.
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moparisthebestjjrh, 'rustup target list' shows both i686-unknown-linux-gnu and i686-unknown-linux-musl
moparisthebestshould be 1 invocation of 'rustup target add i686-unknown-linux-gnu' and then 'cargo build --target i686-unknown-linux-gnu'
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jjrhYeah I did exactly that - I wanted a static binary so I needed uh musl? ,got some issue with SSL - probably something to do with my system. I didn't feel like investigating so I tried with libstrophe and got a similar issue and just gave up and compiled it on the 32 bit server - doing it with C was less painful since the machine had GCC. I didn't want to install all the rust stuff
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moparisthebestyea makes sense
moparisthebestI've only cross-compiled rust to 64-bit windows so far, it worked well though
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jjrhYeah I have done this before without issue but anything involving SSL tends to cause headaches
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jjrhMy C knowledge is basic at best though which doesn't help.
moparisthebestyea today I'll jump through a good number of hoops to write rust if it means avoiding C
jjrhI don't mind C really I just never end up in situations where I need it.
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jjrhLast project I did in C was some embedded stuff on a TI arm M4F chip. Not a lot of work doing C these days really.
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moparisthebestembedded rust seems to be going fairly well http://blog.japaric.io/ haven't gotten a chance to try it yet
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jjrhThe real issue is just about all the chip manufacturers support C and ASM and provide ALL their examples in that and all their build tools expect you're doing that so you have to jump through more hoops to use something else.
jjrhBut i'm glad people are working on it.
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jjrhDoing stuff with this TI board - their environment which is a fork of eclipse - as frustrating and crappy it is does have some really really nice and helpful stuff built in.