XSF Discussion - 2018-03-08

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00:01:12 Link Mauve waqas, I haven’t used it in a long time, could you write those down somewhere?
00:04:11 jjrh XMPP could use a pretty webclient.
00:05:55 Zash Pretty according to whom?
00:06:33 Zash But yeah. Do it. Hire UX engineers and graphics designers and a huge marketing department and do it! :)
00:07:04 jjrh according to whatever the designers who make pretty but non functional UI's people love.
00:07:51 jjrh converse.js is pretty good
00:08:40 jjrh movim is pretty good but one would have to pull out all the other stuff so it's easy to just throw it up on a webserver
00:08:58 waqas It's very much optimized for "communicate with the org". There's the basic MUC-like part. Room discovery+creation is much better than most other clients. Search is a big deal. Room history (reading it, and coming back to a room after being away for a while) works better than any XMPP client I've used so far. Multi-user private chats (temp MUCs?) are very easy and very actively used. File sharing (within a MUC or single user chat stream) is actively used. Threads are started to catch on, and leading to easier conversation in active rooms. Slack bots are cool (and there are many, tied to services that can be used without any ops overhead). The team overall finds things like "/giphy", emojis and custom emjois fun. We don't like the audio/video function, as it's always breaking for somebody. Nobody likes how heavy/slow the client is.
00:09:10 waqas My off the cuff summary ^
00:10:45 mathieui hah, they had to restart their irc server 3 times this evening to add the banner warning about the death of gateways
00:11:12 waqas The price/user is basically irrelevant. It's under $10/user, and for an actual business that's just noise on the balance sheet. The ops free nature is attractive.
00:13:13 jjrh Last time I used slack in the browser it had some serious performance issues
00:13:54 waqas It's slow and bloated. I use it in the browser only, and don't use the "native" app.
00:14:01 mathieui it still does, waqas addressed that already
00:14:15 Link Mauve Thanks waqas.
00:14:41 Zash But is it slow and bloated enough for the higher ups to care?
00:14:45 jjrh There was something very wrong - like I would leave the window open for a day and come back and the browser had some to a halt - I started running it in firefox
00:14:53 Zash (I assume not)
00:14:55 jjrh *come to a halt
00:15:36 waqas Zash: The lower-downs want it. Because it's as close to friction-free as I've seen anything get for various team chat scenarios.
00:16:00 peter agrees with waqas on all points
00:16:19 waqas Slack in our org was not something that management mandated, it was something that people on the grounded tested out and wanted. I assume that's how it gained massive popularity.
00:19:22 jjrh I think the main attraction to slack is it's easy to use and setup your own private space, and even though the client isn't amazing it's good enough and just a webpage. Easy way to onboard people.
00:19:53 peter Although I hate hate hate Slack threads.
00:20:27 jjrh compared to slack I think for casual stuff discord got it way more right - send you a i
00:20:43 jjrh *a 'invite' link - you don't need to give your email or anything, just enter your name
00:20:56 jjrh then we can use voice chat, chat, etc.
00:21:17 Zash jonasw: editor issue, are these CFE's meant to include the text about advancing to final?
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00:22:40 waqas Note that our org used to be an XMPP-using one. One of the things that caused hate for XMPP: Jabber file transfer never worked. Root causes varied, everything network issues to client issues to bad client UX. It was a running joke.
00:23:14 jjrh My friend was just complaining to me that conversations prompts which resource to send a file to.
00:23:44 jjrh I don't think I have ever sent a file over xmpp but isn't it a lot better now with http upload?
00:24:02 waqas And we transitioned to slack over time, the engineering team was the last holdout, but eventually everyone gave in to the "ease of everything"
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00:29:33 jjrh Just tried now with movim sending to this account. It was pretty painless. Went to my phone and gajim without issue :)
00:31:13 jjrh oh weird - I tried to send a image from conversations to the movim account and it is prompting me to choose from 3 resources. I'm guessing this doesn't happen with http upload
00:32:10 Zash No upload service available?
00:32:46 jjrh yeah that's my guess. I don't think my server has http upload (we never send files over chat)
00:34:27 jjrh oh weird hah I try and send it and my browser pops up with "is trying to call you"
00:35:34 Zash Well, it got Jingle payloads confused?
00:36:07 jjrh I guess so?
00:37:53 jjrh does http upload play nice with omemo or is it unencrypted?
00:39:18 Zash HTTP upload doesn't really need to know what the bytes you stuff in it are
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00:39:39 Zash Not sure how standardized the encryption methods in common user are
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00:42:30 jjrh yeah looks like the file is encrypted then the key is exchanged over the secure session
00:42:47 jjrh https://conversations.im/omemo/audit.pdf
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03:38:53 moparisthebest > waqas: Note that our org used to be an XMPP-using one. One of the things that caused hate for XMPP: Jabber file transfer never worked. Root causes varied, everything network issues to client issues to bad client UX. It was a running joke.
03:39:15 moparisthebest oh he left, but my work uses lync or now skype for business
03:39:23 moparisthebest and file transfers essentially never work
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06:31:18 jonasw Zash, pretty sure, yeah. that’s what a CFE is about
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06:32:52 jonasw > Just about every client, library and server (indirectly, via either storage mechanism) I've ever seen. except Pidgin.
06:33:08 jonasw >> 1. What software has XEP-0048 implemented? > Just about every client, library and server (indirectly, via either storage mechanism) I've ever seen. except Pidgin.
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06:55:44 daniel jonasw: pidgin doesn't have bookmarks?
06:55:47 daniel Really
06:59:27 jonasw daniel, yeah
06:59:34 jonasw MUCs are only in their local roster
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07:23:20 MattJ jonasw, daniel: Pidgin does support it, but only in a plugin that's not enabled by default
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07:28:10 jonasw MattJ, how’s that called? it doesn’t seem to be installed by default on debian
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07:28:29 jonasw maybe in the "pidgin-plugin-pack"
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07:30:07 Ge0rG I imagine pidgin-plugins-bad and pidgin-plugins-ugly, gstreamer style
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07:30:13 jonasw hah
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07:30:38 jonasw in case of pidgin it would rather be: pidgin-plugins-normal, pidgin-plugins-without-zerodays
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07:30:53 jonasw (at least so I heard)
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07:31:37 jonasw in the case of pidgin I’d also be worried what it’ll do to my already existing bookmarks when I turn the plugin on. on either side of the wire.
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08:37:09 Ge0rG > In addition, the service SHOULD send an invitation to any user who has been added to the member list of a members-only room if the user is not currently affiliated with the room Nice things you discover in 0045 by accident.
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08:37:46 Ge0rG Kev: I'm confused by what you said yesterday in the meeting. The muc_* features seem to actually be used as runtime configuration options, but the XEP only ever talks of them as being supported features
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08:38:20 Kev Give me an hour to wake up, and then I can think about this
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08:41:20 Ge0rG starts timer
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08:42:17 Tobias Ge0rG, here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTyN-vvFIkE
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08:42:47 Ge0rG Tobias: that's perfect!
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08:49:32 intosi Great score while I wait for some integration tests to complete.
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08:50:18 Tobias they also take exactly an hour?
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08:53:29 intosi Sure feels like it.
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09:01:56 MattJ jonasw, https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/6353 :/
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09:16:30 jonasw Opened 10 years ago Last modified 4 years ago
09:16:32 jonasw sweeeet
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09:18:58 Kev Ge0rG: As far as I can see, the 'features' are done as http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something, while current room configuration is done as muc_something.
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09:20:25 jonasw Kev, Example 9
09:20:41 jonasw (in § 6.4 Querying for Room Information)
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09:21:15 Ge0rG Kev: while I agree from reading the examples, this is not really answering my question.
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09:21:26 Kev What was the question, then? :)
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09:22:46 Ge0rG Kev: besides, there are no *features* with http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something in the XEP, nor in any other XEPs.
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09:24:11 Ge0rG Kev: my question is, how you came to the conclusion that http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#something are features and muc_something are runtime options.
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09:25:33 Ge0rG So far the only supporting document I found is: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0307.html#support > If a MUC service supports the protocol specified herein, it MUST advertise that fact by returning a feature of "http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#unique" in response to Service Discovery (XEP-0030)
09:25:36 Kev Just that the first three http... features are 'Support for...', wile the others are descriptive.
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09:25:59 Kev But happy to be wrong, just push it as-is.
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09:27:11 Ge0rG Kev: oh, I feel like I'm in a position to actually improve 0045 now, I won't abuse my powers to do a half-assed job.
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09:32:48 Ge0rG > Support for reflecting the original message 'id' in 'groupchat' messages. Sounds kind of weird. I'll leave the original wording.
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09:40:33 Ge0rG Kev: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600/commits/b017284eea20070b7982d6fb58fe6c68c8c6dc54
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09:41:04 Kev Ta. I'm more comfortable with this, whether I should be or not.
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09:55:35 Ge0rG Do we have all council votes together then?
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09:58:16 Kev Think so.
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10:04:35 Ge0rG From the MUC logs, I haven't explicitly voted on that one.
10:05:06 Ge0rG jonasw: you can merge https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600 now, thanks :)
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10:18:14 jonasw Ge0rG, there you go
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10:18:47 Ge0rG > Pull request successfully merged and closed 👏
10:19:03 jonasw where did my mail about xep-0020 go though
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10:19:48 Ge0rG I see one titled [Standards] DEPRECATED: XEP-0020 (Feature Negotiation)
10:19:49 jonasw ah, just took a while
10:20:07 jonasw (weirdly, it appeared several minutes after the UPDATED: XEP-0153 one)
10:20:15 jonasw maybe funny lag between the mailservers :)
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11:05:43 Dave Cridland jonasw, Konstantin noted that "Deprecating is not a serious problem" for XEP-0071 and that got me thinking - didn't Council vote to Deprecate, not Obsolete? Or am I misremembering?
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11:10:26 jonasw huh
11:10:29 jonasw you are indeed right
11:10:37 jonasw that’s my fault, I’m going to rectify this immediately
11:10:57 jonasw well, editors fault at least
11:13:09 goffi The references to XHTML-IM in other XEPs should be removed, I know there is at least one in XEP-0277
11:14:45 goffi (and anyway current implementations i.e. Movim and SàT, use full XHTML)
11:17:22 Dave Cridland jonasw, Thanks.
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11:19:11 jonasw this is a busy day for the xeps repository :)
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11:23:26 goffi https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16539857 (slack is closing XMPP gateway, which was shitty anyway)
11:23:53 waqas goffi: Can you comment on how bad the gateway was?
11:24:36 goffi waqas: it's really basic, not implemeting any advanced feature, it's hard to join or discover rooms.
11:26:37 waqas goffi: How does it handle multi-user PMs? Temp MUC invites? And what about threads?
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11:36:37 goffi waqas: you have MUC room named from pseudos, something like mpdm-[nick_1]--[nick_2]--[nick_3]--[your_nick]@your_company.xmpp.slack.com
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11:38:10 goffi waqas: to give you an idea, here is the disco of the server:
11:38:18 goffi http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#info http://jabber.org/protocol/disco#items jabber:iq:last jabber:iq:privacy jabber:iq:version urn:xmpp:ping vcard-temp
11:38:42 Ge0rG Somebody should write a proper bridge now.
11:38:46 waqas I'm mainly surprised at jabber:iq:privacy
11:39:33 goffi Ge0rG: I think there was one for libpurple, but unmaintained
11:40:27 Ge0rG So spectrum again. That software stack provides me with nightmares
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11:44:32 Ge0rG > I sooooo regret even having the IRC gateway. Slack CEO https://twitter.com/stewart/status/817483176687718400
11:44:47 Ge0rG The thread is awesome
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11:46:49 Ge0rG Handicapped users will appreciate that slack "is working on" accessibility.
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11:53:00 Link Mauve jonasw, “Note that I intend to overhaul XEP-0394 and I don’t know any implementations.” about Message Markup, well, slixmpp has had one since day one. ^^'
11:53:24 jonasw is that used in a client?
11:53:44 Link Mauve I think poezio will use it if there is no XHTML-IM alongside.
11:53:50 jonasw I see
11:53:51 Link Mauve Otherwise it will prefer XHTML-IM.
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11:55:48 Ge0rG Link Mauve: what does "alongside" mean?
11:55:51 Ge0rG On the receiving end?
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11:59:09 Link Mauve Yes.
11:59:15 Link Mauve On the displaying end, more specifically.
11:59:36 Ge0rG Ah, so it's not sending it.
11:59:40 Link Mauve Nope.
11:59:53 Ge0rG What about displaying *Styling* instead of ~markup~?
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12:00:14 Link Mauve I couldn’t find a good way to mangle our composing format into either of these new XEPs yet.
12:00:38 Link Mauve They are way too poor to express this format.
12:01:02 Ge0rG The good thing about Styling is that you don't need to mangle anything, you can just live-apply the styling to the input box
12:01:42 Link Mauve That means changing our input format for something that can’t be disabled.
12:01:59 Link Mauve Currently all styling we have is opt-in by using keybinds.
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12:02:44 Link Mauve I can write *stars and bold stars*, and these aren’t coupled in any way.
12:02:50 Link Mauve With styling you can’t disable that.
12:03:12 Link Mauve If you want to put the emphasis on a specific word without displaying the stars around, for instance.
12:04:40 Link Mauve But people have been listing these issues for a long time on the mailing list and here, yet people didn’t care in any way about them, so I don’t think I have much else to add.
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12:07:08 Ge0rG Link Mauve: I'm aware of the arguments, and I even used to be a proponent of the explicit approach before I tested Styling. It's an easy and compelling way to markup things, and it even works over IRC transports!
12:07:32 Link Mauve XHTML-IM also works over IRC transports. ^^'
12:08:11 Ge0rG Link Mauve: I'd like to hear your definition of "work" bent sufficiently to support your statement.
12:08:20 jonasw Ge0rG, biboumi converts XHTML-IM to actual IRC markup
12:08:25 jonasw and vice versa
12:08:34 jonasw there’s no bending there
12:08:37 jonasw it’s actually done, including colors
12:08:39 jonasw it’s insane
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12:08:46 jonasw (and incredibly cool)
12:08:55 Link Mauve IRC has approximately the same limitations as a console client, it can only change boldness, italics, invert and colours, but it works quite well for those parts.
12:09:00 Ge0rG I agree with that statement
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12:10:46 Link Mauve So I don’t buy the argument that biboumi should convert my ~~words or **words into IRC colours, that’s removing formatting fun and adding complexity when the recipient doesn’t see what you wanted to send.
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12:11:40 Ge0rG I was rather thinking about clients that already support ** and __
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12:12:55 Link Mauve And those that will have to be changed because they assigned another meaning to them before.
12:13:12 Link Mauve Further increasing confusion.
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12:16:41 mathieui jonasw, I though biboumi only did one-way converting?
12:18:12 jonasw mathieui, hm, dunno; I have seen coloured things already.
12:18:17 jonasw I think at least.
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12:18:53 mathieui yeah, from IRC it works but I don’t think the xhtml-im → IRC is even implemented
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13:46:15 pep. Reading the xhtml-im deprecation thread, I realized that people are not even aware of 0001. Changing Draft to something else wasn't bad but probably not enough
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14:12:32 moparisthebest pep., until someone invents a device that can slap another person over the internet what else can be done?
14:12:42 moparisthebest (I *really* want one of those devices)
14:12:53 jonasw "stab someone into the face over standard tcp/ip"
14:13:06 pep. moparisthebest the (in)famous slapper
14:13:44 moparisthebest well it'd need to bypass firewalls and NAT so I'd vote over HTTPS :P
14:13:48 jonasw pep., tbf, I wasn’t aware of 0001 until I started authoring XEPs either
14:13:56 Maranda 👨‍💻🖐️🤚👊
14:14:08 jonasw /kickban moparisthebest stop making people sad :(
14:15:08 pep. jonasw, sure, same for me, it took a while
14:15:10 moparisthebest see jonasw , you could have used the slapping device on me right then...
14:15:22 jonasw s/slapping/stabbing/ pls
14:15:27 jonasw need to be more rigorous here ;-)
14:15:35 pep. jonasw, we're not criminals
14:15:52 pep. Or I'm out!
14:16:02 jonasw ohkay ohkay
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14:18:22 Maranda pep. lies.
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14:25:37 nyco board meeting in 5?
14:25:42 SaltyBones Ge0rG, you'll love this: http://friedberger-nachhilfe.de/ a website that requires you to fill out a captcha to VIEW it :)
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14:26:32 Ge0rG SaltyBones: wfm
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14:27:22 Dave Cridland pep., FWIW, the website portal for the XEPs (ie, https://xmpp.org/extensions/) could probably use a link to it, even though it's the first one listed.
14:29:05 Dave Cridland Also it says you can show/hide the various *types* of XEP, when it then shows Statuses.
14:29:10 moparisthebest SaltyBones, that's what cloudflare does as a company
14:29:47 Dave Cridland SaltyBones, You're using Tor, I assume?
14:30:14 Dave Cridland nyco, Also, yes. Although I was distracting Guus, so I may have made him late.
14:30:43 nyco it's now
14:30:53 Guus I'm here.
14:31:52 Guus Martin excused himself
14:31:58 Guus Ralphm, MattJ?
14:32:07 nyco Matthew and Ralph are around
14:32:21 MattJ Here
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14:33:50 Guus nyco, did you talk to Ralph just now, or were you only observing that he's in this MUC?
14:33:57 nyco talked
14:33:59 nyco 5 min ago
14:34:11 nyco oops, no
14:34:23 Guus that was me
14:34:29 Guus the other handsome Dutch guy :)
14:34:55 nyco let's still start? and end on time?
14:34:59 Guus agreed
14:35:06 nyco https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
14:35:09 Guus Do you want to take this one?
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14:35:23 SaltyBones moparisthebest, Dave Cridland no, without Tor! Indeed it's not funny otherwise. :p
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14:36:10 Guus 1. Role Call and agenda
14:36:20 Guus We've established who's here. Anything else for the agenda?
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14:36:36 nyco none from me
14:36:49 MattJ Nor me
14:36:59 Guus 2. Confirm minute taker
14:37:06 Guus Who would be so kind?
14:37:45 Guus >awkward silence<
14:37:52 Guus I'll type them based on the logs then
14:37:58 nyco thx
14:38:04 Guus 3. Topics for decision
14:38:10 Guus 3.1: Board Priorities 2018
14:38:17 Guus we're holding off for that meeting, right?
14:38:22 nyco yep
14:38:29 nyco still waiting for answers
14:38:35 nyco regarding preferred dates and times
14:38:36 Guus nyco is working on that, I think, given that you asked me about availability earlier
14:38:44 nyco correct
14:38:55 Guus anything we can add to that here and now?
14:39:04 nyco probably in two weeks, afaik
14:39:20 Guus ok, thanks
14:39:31 Guus 3.2: Bus factor / bank account
14:39:39 nyco apart from availabilities, if you got to push something regarding the organisation, feel free
14:40:24 Guus As promised last week, I've reached out to Peter for an update, But have not heard back yet. I'll prod again.
14:40:44 Guus (nyco, re prio meeting - I don't but I'll include that invitation in the minutes for others)
14:41:09 Guus 4. Reviewing commitment list
14:41:15 Guus we've covered the prio meeting
14:41:36 Guus Ralph expressed earlier that he wants to hold off the ED replacement search until after the prio meeting
14:41:47 MattJ wfm
14:42:04 nyco do we have to wait?
14:42:37 MattJ No, but I think we'd prefer to
14:42:52 Guus nyco, I'm not sure if we _have_ to. I'm still unsure exactly what entails that role - which might tie into the prio meeting.
14:42:57 MattJ Part of the problem is that we can't find people for the role until we can exactly define what the role is :)
14:43:24 nyco got it
14:43:33 Guus the third card, adding commits - I think we'll cover that in that meeting too. Nothing much to do there now, I think?
14:44:26 nyco agree
14:44:31 nyco archive?
14:44:43 Guus maybe put in a different lane for prio meeting?
14:44:55 nyco sure
14:44:58 Guus or just leave it for now, meh. I don't have a strong preference.
14:45:15 Guus Last card, drafting a membership survey - Mattj, did you get around to prepare something?
14:46:44 MattJ I didn't yet, sorry
14:47:00 nyco if you need help, please ask
14:47:15 Guus Can I tempt you for an ETA? :)
14:47:23 MattJ Next week? :)
14:47:27 Guus awesome :)
14:47:37 nyco it's not that I'm good at it, I'd rather have someone really competent to do it, but I have a few insights that I'd to have confirmed/invalidated
14:47:44 nyco +1W
14:48:24 Guus nyco, you did the last one, didn't you? That gave good results.
14:48:27 MattJ nyco, I'm not claiming to be especially competent at it... if you have some ideas, feel free to share, or take it on yourself
14:48:34 MattJ I just feel it should be done
14:49:24 nyco ok then I'll push you the few questions/doubts I have, you do what you do of them, ok?
14:49:28 Guus Perhaps you guys discuss this between the two of you, out of band?
14:49:31 nyco ok
14:49:52 daniel has left
14:50:01 MattJ wfm
14:50:04 Guus 5. Items for discussion
14:50:14 Guus 5.1 Fundraising and financing
14:50:41 nyco if we do that conference, we may be able to generate some money?
14:50:48 Guus I'd actually would like us to look at that in more detail, but perhaps that should be prepared for better.
14:51:15 nyco can be a board prio, btw
14:51:34 nyco this may mean we'll discuss that during the prio meeting
14:51:36 Guus I think addressing the money issue is something that we're responsible for anyway, wether or not it's a prio.
14:51:57 nyco totally
14:52:00 Guus I think it might be good to not heap to much on that already very broad meeting.
14:52:07 nyco makes sense
14:52:37 Guus Let me prepare for specific financial / fund-related talking points for next meeting - unless someone wants to add something now.
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14:53:29 Guus I'll take that as an 'ok'
14:53:42 Guus 6. AOB
14:53:45 Guus anyone?
14:53:50 nyco nope
14:54:08 MattJ None here
14:54:23 Guus from the floor perhaps?
14:55:07 Guus 7. Time / date of next
14:55:13 Guus I'll be unavailable next week
14:55:17 nyco +1W
14:55:23 MattJ Next week works for me
14:55:29 Guus but if you guys are available, I'm ok to skip one.
14:55:47 Guus ok, two out of four will be there. It's likely that you'll get at least one more, I think
14:55:50 nyco Ralph and Marint may like to join
14:55:51 MattJ I think we should continue unless others also indicate they can't make it
14:55:51 Guus lets do +1W
14:56:06 Guus we are in agreement
14:56:10 Guus bangs gavel
14:56:13 nyco thx MattJ and Guus! ;-)
14:56:17 Guus thank you guys
14:56:22 MattJ Thanks Guus
14:56:56 Syndace Sorry I didn't see there was official stuff going on at first and didn't want to interrupt (isn't this the wrong MUC?). Anways what I wanted to tell you: OH MY GOD I just successfully signed and verified messages using my XEdDSA python implementation! Prepare for a new OMEMO lib guys :)
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14:57:41 MattJ Syndace, great news :)
14:57:48 nyco no pb Syndace
14:57:51 Guus \o/
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14:58:08 MattJ I'd say that's relevant to this MUC, it's on average used for official meetings for 30 minutes every week
14:58:12 nyco oh memo!
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14:59:10 Guus 24 this week, we were being efficient ;)
15:00:01 vanitasvitae Syndace, wow nice!
15:01:06 vanitasvitae It would be interesting to make java port at some point, to create smack-omemo-syndace 😀
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15:05:52 Syndace Haha thanks guys! 😁
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15:12:25 goffi Syndace: great, any idea when we could test a public repos ?
15:12:58 jonasw Syndace, amazing!
15:13:00 jonasw congrats
15:14:35 Syndace Well most of it is already prepared and I just need to switch the flag from private to public on GitHub. I hope it'll be a thing of one or two weeks (but I tend to underestimate developement time :D )
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15:14:59 jonasw why don’t you switch it to public right now?
15:15:06 jonasw tack a huge "UNAUDITED CODE" warning on it and go for it
15:15:16 goffi Syndace: will Python 2 be supported ?
15:15:22 jonasw I hope not.
15:15:32 jonasw python 2 won’t be supported at all anymore in 2 years time
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15:16:15 Syndace jonasw, I thought about this but I really want it at least to work before I make it public
15:16:18 goffi jonasw: yes I know
15:16:28 jonasw Syndace, I thought it does now?
15:16:36 jonasw otherwise it makes sense :)
15:16:43 Syndace Yeah Python 2 is supported (actually I don't know whether Python 3 is supported)
15:16:53 jonasw aand I lost interest.
15:16:56 jonasw ;)
15:17:06 Syndace The last piece is working but not integrated yet
15:17:37 jonasw seriously though: python2 is going to die soon-ish. if there are issues with py3, I’ll be happy to help out
15:18:16 goffi jonasw: not all software have switched yet, so python 2 support is good news for now
15:18:55 goffi Syndace: for me Python 2 support is interesting only for a couple of months (until I fully switch to Python 3), but the support is really good news as it means I can start implementation quickly.
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15:20:18 Syndace Good to hear. When I started working with Python about two years ago I was forced to use Python 2 because one of our dependencies did not support version 3 and I kind of stuck to it. I know of most of the differences though and I think I wrote the code to work in both versions equally.
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15:25:40 jonasw Syndace, tip: set up travis CI (or another CI) tests for each version you’d like to support
15:25:50 jonasw it’s actually quite trivial to do with github
15:26:52 goffi Syndace: I was also stuck by dependency (Twisted), but the port is done now.
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15:50:41 Zash Re billion laughs, https://modules.prosody.im/mod_conformance_restricted.html
15:51:17 jonasw still need to figure out how to integrate that in my test suite.
15:51:39 jonasw > Send “PI”, “comment”, “DTD” or “entity” to xmpp:example.com/conformance, while directly connected to the Prosody instance.
15:51:43 jonasw as <body/> in a <message/>?
15:51:50 Zash Yes
15:52:17 moparisthebest jonasw, is python 2 going to die soonish though?
15:52:27 moparisthebest because it seems like 2 and 3 will live on all computers forever at this point
15:52:40 jonasw moparisthebest, once upstream support is done, I’ll start to bug every project still using it.
15:52:45 moparisthebest python 3 is like MIX except there are actual users
15:54:49 jjrh I wish distros would stop encouraging pidgin (aka not installing it by default) because pidgin - least last time I used it - was really really bad for XMPP
15:55:14 jjrh all the "why does this happen???" xmpp issues were resolved when I switched to gajim
15:55:35 Zash Jack of all trades
15:56:02 jjrh But what does it actually do besides XMPP and IRC?
15:56:10 jonasw Ceterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
15:56:16 Zash They don't ship Pidgin for its XMPP capabilities
15:56:21 jonasw jjrh, ICQ, Facebook(?), …
15:56:37 jjrh Does anyone actually use ICQ anymore? Facebook is broken for sure.
15:56:48 jonasw dunno
15:57:04 jjrh like don't get me wrong 10 years ago gaim was great
15:58:09 jjrh but these days everything is mostly "use a browser and be lucky if it even sorta works with a native client"
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15:58:58 jjrh Like I used to use bitlbee for facebook chat for a long time but eventually it stopped working and a whole bunch of features like group chats didn't work so I gave up and just open messenger.com
15:58:59 moparisthebest do non-tech people even use desktops/laptops anymore?
15:59:15 moparisthebest my mom and wife haven't used one in years at this point
15:59:30 jonasw (I sure hope those are distinct people)
15:59:32 moparisthebest they just do everything on their phones
15:59:39 moparisthebest haha yes jonasw
15:59:40 jonasw ah yeah, plural
15:59:50 jonasw the first four words are not unambiguous
16:00:39 jjrh Well I have been trying to convince folks at my work to use gajim instead of pidgin - it's slow going.
16:01:24 jjrh one person is all "it doesn't have IRC so I don't want it" Like comeon - IRC in pidgin really really sucks.... just use xchat if you want a gui
16:01:39 jonasw jjrh, deploy a biboumi
16:01:46 jonasw amazing IRC<->XMPP gateway
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16:02:30 jjrh How does that work? is it just a irc bouncer?
16:02:35 Ge0rG is a long-time hard-core XMPP user and is almost happy with biboumi
16:02:49 Ge0rG jjrh: it allows you to use all your xmpp clients on IRC, at the same time
16:02:55 jonasw jjrh, https://biboumi.louiz.org/
16:03:00 jonasw it maps IRC to MUCs
16:03:04 jonasw pretty great
16:03:38 jjrh Yeah so it's just a bouncer - neat.
16:04:12 jjrh How does it work for the authentication? You configure that all through your XMPP client or do you need to configure the biboumi gateway?
16:04:50 moparisthebest you configure it through ad-hock commands, so you need like gajim
16:04:55 jonasw jjrh, yeah, ad-hoc commands.
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16:05:01 moparisthebest wow extra k where did that come from
16:05:15 jjrh Ah cool. So what is it SASL? works.
16:05:17 moparisthebest but once configured, it works great with conversations and such too
16:05:47 jonasw it doesn’t do SASL AFAIK
16:06:00 jonasw but you can add a PRIVMSG to nickserv on startup if that helps.
16:06:29 jonasw https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3103#note_516
16:06:42 jonasw https://lab.louiz.org/louiz/biboumi/issues/3103#note_941
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16:07:37 jjrh yeah the main one is having freenode work
16:08:01 jjrh (freenode should just run a xmpp gateway! )
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16:16:29 moparisthebest most IRC servers, I think freenode too, just lets you send your nickserv password as the server password
16:18:55 jjrh yeah so it's not the end of the world.
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16:20:41 jjrh I think i'll give it a go - would make one aspect of my life a little easier. Tunneling the weechat remote over ssh on my phone is not great.
16:20:56 jonasw oh yes
16:21:06 jonasw just make sure you don’t allow remotes to (ab-)use your biboumi
16:21:55 jjrh Yeah I can see spammers going to down with that :P
16:22:14 jjrh *town
16:23:15 jjrh I started reading xep-0369 - has anyone implemented it yet?
16:23:55 moparisthebest iirc there is 1 proprietary server implementation and 1 open source almost-implementation
16:24:05 moparisthebest but no it's basically vapourware
16:24:09 jjrh I guess SWIFT client has support
16:24:49 jjrh I see a request on prosody - whats the open source server implementation? ejabberd?
16:25:29 moparisthebest it tries to solve every use-case on the planet, far too complicated if you just want good multi-user chat, in my opinion of course
16:25:43 moparisthebest I want to say openfire...
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16:27:06 jjrh haven't finished reading the spec yet but I'll agree it is rather complicated. It however gets much much closer to being like 'slack' where you're a 'member' of a room but not necessarily active.
16:28:33 jonasw IMO MIX is rather sane by now, feature-set wise
16:28:43 jonasw it solves some nastiness of MUC
16:28:47 jonasw (speaking as a client developer)
16:28:54 moparisthebest there are other things to do this https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-light.html https://docs.ejabberd.im/developer/xmpp-clients-bots/proposed-extensions/muc-sub/
16:29:02 jonasw my main issue with it is that it integrates weirdly with the roster.
16:29:04 moparisthebest I have no comment as to whether they are better/worse than MIX
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16:29:18 jjrh That functionality would be useful for certain types of deployments - aka a company XMPP server where new users get automatically setup with all the varying rooms - so they /see/ what's there not necessarily actively participating.
16:29:18 jonasw don’t link things in /inbox/ as "there *are* other things"
16:29:32 moparisthebest it is a thing isn't it jonasw ? :P
16:29:38 jonasw depends
16:29:49 jonasw jjrh, you can do that with autojoin-bookmarks (many clients will follow them) for MUC too
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16:30:18 jonasw MIX mainly has the advantage that an *account* is joined and not an individual client. this makes things simpler because it takes the load off the client regarding keeping state in sync.
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16:31:00 jjrh Yep, but you still will get the "Someone has mentioned your name" pop up
16:31:23 jonasw yeah, that’s true for both MIX and MUC?
16:31:39 jjrh Don't you need to be /in/ the room with a client for MUC?
16:31:50 jjrh not just bookmarked
16:32:10 jonasw you need to
16:32:15 jonasw but most clients will follow autojoin-bookmarks
16:32:33 jonasw so if you put them in their account on sign up, they will be joined right away
16:32:36 jonasw pidgin will of course not, because pidgin is stupid
16:32:54 jjrh Right but if I close the window i'm sol
16:33:02 jonasw I don’t know what "sol" means
16:33:06 jjrh shit out of luck
16:33:17 jonasw but if you close the window and your client takes that as "leave this chat" it might very well make you leave from the MIX.
16:33:21 jonasw that’s not a protocol issue
16:36:33 jjrh I read this idea as I have jonasw as a member of xsf - with the theory that I should be able to signal your attention to that room without your client actively listening / receiving all the junk going on. You may also want your phone to only have the alerts / important information open and not all the other channels you participate in - but you still want to be queried on your phone when someone says "jonasw did you forget we have a meeting today?" in xsf
16:37:04 ralphm Guus, others, apologies, I need to play taxi unexpectedly
16:37:10 ralphm Guus, others, apologies, I needed to play taxi unexpectedly
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16:38:23 jonasw jjrh, the client will always receive all messages from a MIX room your account is joined to
16:38:33 jonasw independent on whether you are mentioned or whatnot
16:39:47 jjrh I thought the whole idea of keeping you as a 'member' of a room was for situations where you might not want your phone sitting in a really busy support channel because it eats up a lot of data but on your desktop client you don't care
16:39:55 jonasw no
16:40:15 jonasw the idea is that you don’t get removed from a room just because right now none of your clients is online
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16:44:25 jjrh Ah. That would be a neat feature to have - having your phone only subscribe to the pubsub node and when you say my name or 'signal' me somehow from the context of the chat room my client would alert me i'm needed. Also be a handy feature for things like I want to get important notifications about prosody - and may want to weigh in - but the majority of the time not looking at that window. Stuff like a broadcast that there is a majority vulnerability and you should upgrade asap, or a new version release.
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16:44:44 jonasw there is no pubsub node which does that
16:45:05 jonasw (in MIX)
16:45:16 jonasw of course, using pubsub nodes for such announcements would be an interesting, but also totally separate concept.
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16:48:50 jjrh In the little free time I have at the moment i'm trying to get to the point of understanding the gajim codebase enough to implement better pubsub support to do stuff like alerts/notifications. Instead of having a MUC bot dump git commits that would be a pubsub node - and ideally sub nodes for different branches, so I can subscribe to say a feature branch that interests me or conflicts with my work. (but majority of people aren't concerned with that)
16:49:22 jonasw there is subscribe-options which could do that -- if you’re running a specialized pubsub-service
16:49:30 moparisthebest kind of like a mailing list type thing?
16:49:31 jonasw which should be trivial to do; a pubsub service can be run on a resource IIRC
16:49:33 moparisthebest could be interesting
16:50:00 jonasw I need to implement a skeleton for a pubsub service in aioxmpp, so that I can deploy bots which act as pubsub services.
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16:54:49 jjrh My thought is more instead of getting my inbox spammed with nagios alerts I would get pubsub notifications. Ideally doing something smart like having different nodes for various servers. I got the idea from moparisthebest 's sendmail xmpp thingy - have a email account you add to receive alerts to and a bot thingy that converts the emails to xmpp pubsub nodes or msg/muc. Everything already supports email so the overhead to support this is just adding another email to receive the notification.
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16:55:52 jjrh I did something sorta like this for email alerts to SIP SIMPLE.
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16:56:30 moparisthebest that would be interesting for mailing lists like all the xsf ones
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16:58:00 jjrh Yep. Just about everything supports at least email so you're not writting a plugin for all the different platforms.
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17:02:34 moparisthebest 'mailing lists in xmpp' seems to be something that someone else would have thought of and implemented already
17:02:42 moparisthebest I wonder if there isn't already a XEP
17:03:40 jjrh The thing is I haven't found any clients that really have good pubsub support
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17:04:16 Kev What does "Really good pubsub support" mean in a client?
17:04:26 Kev Pubsub is used in the context of things, rather than as a thing on its own.
17:04:41 jonasw Kev, I think actually just subscribing to a node and receiving messages from it.
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17:05:31 jjrh I would see - for this case - a window that I can browse. Like movim does
17:06:28 jjrh Sorta like a RSS reader I guess
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17:06:54 Kev Neither of those sound like a generic client thing to me.
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17:07:11 Kev You subscribe to the node in the context of something specific (e.g. Swift will soon support subscribing to FDP nodes)
17:07:14 MattJ What is a generic client? :)
17:07:30 Kev A think a client should generically support.
17:07:54 MattJ I think IM client would be how I'd describe what you're describing
17:08:29 MattJ Since an XMPP pubsub feed reader is also a client (yes, I'm being picky, but just trying to clarify the conversation)
17:09:37 Kev Fair.
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17:18:21 jjrh https://i.imgur.com/BU0T7s3.jpg
17:19:06 jjrh something like that - a window that lets you navigate the hierarchy and new nodes would obviously ping you.
17:21:56 moparisthebest jjrh, but is it like a mailing list, can you reply to specific nodes :)
17:22:11 Ge0rG > For example we may rename XEP-0393 to "Markdown" That made my day.
17:22:14 moparisthebest I really like it either way
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17:23:16 jjrh Not sure - it's just the idea I have in my head. Just being able to view this stuff more easily in a client would be useful.
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17:24:08 Ge0rG > Also if we'd do that, we'd have "Message Markup" and "Message Markdown"... Where can I vote on that? 🤣
17:24:08 moparisthebest jjrh, I'm not a UI guy at all, that seems great for desktop, but how would it look in mobile?
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17:26:46 jjrh Not a UI guy either - so no clue, I would probably look at how email mobile apps do threading
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17:27:59 Yagiza moparisthebest, as for XEP-0393, I'm sure its implementation will be awful both on desktop and mobile.
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17:29:16 jjrh but probably something like showing the top level stuff, then you click 'security' and then it shows all the sub nodes for that and so on. For new alerts you would just get a notification showing you what it is (kinda like a new email notification - you get the first 15 words or whatever in the notification)
17:29:17 moparisthebest Yagiza, do you mean https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html ? 393 is the styling one and it's already great everywhere :)
17:29:41 Yagiza moparisthebest, I'm sure not so great.
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17:30:56 Yagiza moparisthebest, XEP-0369 is interesting but seems somewhat complicated, so needs further investigations.
17:31:50 moparisthebest Yagiza, gajim and most other desktop clients, including IRC and email implemented basically 393 before it existed, conversations implemented it immediatly
17:31:56 moparisthebest I don't see the problem at all
17:32:18 jjrh I'll probably initially - specifically for email alerts - just dump them to a MUC channel (or private msg) which will work with every XMPP client. This would work /today/ with all the XMPP clients. (the main users I have in mind are on a proprietary client)
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17:34:15 jjrh kinda stole your sendmail idea moparisthebest and did a hack job with a libstrophe example to send me a private message from a git hook. The server with git on it doesn't have python 3 and all that stuff and I couldn't get rust to cross compile to 32bit so C was easiest.
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17:35:29 moparisthebest it wasn't really my idea, perl sendmail is super ancient and didn't work with my server, I copied/hacked that python one from someone else to do PGP and such, then an openssl upgrade broke python and I hacked the rust one together :P
17:35:37 moparisthebest *perl sendxmpp
17:36:06 jjrh Well I got the idea from /your/ code. :)
17:36:34 moparisthebest still if you wrote a C sendxmpp you should put that code someplace public :)
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17:37:01 moparisthebest wait, 32 bit server in 2018? interesting :)
17:37:07 Zash I wonder if I still have my sendxmpp-curl somewhere
17:37:10 jjrh I don't want to talk about it haha
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17:37:17 jjrh I was as surprised as you were
17:37:42 Zash moparisthebest: Hey, you leave my supercomputer alone!
17:37:48 Zash It was cool in 2003
17:38:15 moparisthebest Zash, you added xmpp to curl?
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17:39:09 Zash moparisthebest: No, I wrote a plugin for Prosody that received stuff over HTTP and a curl wrapper compatible with sendxmpp
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17:39:21 Zash https://modules.prosody.im/mod_post_msg.html 8 years ago!
17:39:45 jjrh But 'wrote' is a bit of a stretch, I found some example from a PR and glued it together. I'll throw it up somewhere. Right now it's just a make target for libstrophe since I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to correctly link it.
17:39:47 moparisthebest ah ok, neat
17:40:05 moparisthebest adding xmpp to curl would also be neat
17:40:16 moparisthebest it does imap and smtp and such, why not xmpp
17:40:25 Zash $ q ~/share/bin/sendxmpp-curl https://q.zash.se/76c690bcad19.txt
17:40:31 Zash moparisthebest: Do it!
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17:40:45 jjrh but it works, I get a private message when someone pushes :)
17:44:17 moparisthebest I switched most of my cronjobs/alerts to sendxmpp over sendmail years ago, but it has the downside of some messages are obnoxiously big for xmpp
17:44:37 moparisthebest I broke conversations once, now it has a character limit and messages get truncated
17:44:53 jjrh I'd like to add a bit of stuff so it uses ~/.config/sendxmpp.toml and is just a C version of sendxmpp
17:45:54 moparisthebest jjrh, did you try https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc
17:46:08 moparisthebest in theory it'd work for you but I never tried it (compiles rust to C)
17:46:41 moparisthebest well cross compiling to 32 bit linux should work too...
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17:48:03 jjrh Nah they only show x86-64 targets - I didn't actually get libstrophe to cross compile, I got the same issue as I did trying with rust some issue with SSL. The reason C worked well is because I could just compile it on the 32bit machine without installing anything new.
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17:49:09 moparisthebest jjrh, 'rustup target list' shows both i686-unknown-linux-gnu and i686-unknown-linux-musl
17:50:47 moparisthebest should be 1 invocation of 'rustup target add i686-unknown-linux-gnu' and then 'cargo build --target i686-unknown-linux-gnu'
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17:52:22 jjrh Yeah I did exactly that - I wanted a static binary so I needed uh musl? ,got some issue with SSL - probably something to do with my system. I didn't feel like investigating so I tried with libstrophe and got a similar issue and just gave up and compiled it on the 32 bit server - doing it with C was less painful since the machine had GCC. I didn't want to install all the rust stuff
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17:52:37 moparisthebest yea makes sense
17:53:13 moparisthebest I've only cross-compiled rust to 64-bit windows so far, it worked well though
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17:56:05 jjrh Yeah I have done this before without issue but anything involving SSL tends to cause headaches
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17:56:36 jjrh My C knowledge is basic at best though which doesn't help.
17:57:43 moparisthebest yea today I'll jump through a good number of hoops to write rust if it means avoiding C
17:58:20 jjrh I don't mind C really I just never end up in situations where I need it.
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18:00:03 jjrh Last project I did in C was some embedded stuff on a TI arm M4F chip. Not a lot of work doing C these days really.
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18:00:51 moparisthebest embedded rust seems to be going fairly well http://blog.japaric.io/ haven't gotten a chance to try it yet
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18:02:59 jjrh The real issue is just about all the chip manufacturers support C and ASM and provide ALL their examples in that and all their build tools expect you're doing that so you have to jump through more hoops to use something else.
18:03:11 jjrh But i'm glad people are working on it.
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18:05:34 jjrh Doing stuff with this TI board - their environment which is a fork of eclipse - as frustrating and crappy it is does have some really really nice and helpful stuff built in.
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