jonaswDave Cridland, I heard you had some (internal? non-public?) client which does reactions. Would you care to give feedback to this? https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/80
Ge0rGTobias: HN is probably downgrading / shadowkilling upvotes from direct links, it's better to go from the main page.
TobiasHN users probably know it and can go back to the mainpage to upvote
Ge0rGMaybe.
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danielNice good job
danielDon't even care about the content but having xmpp on the front page of HN is always an achievement
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ZashDave Cridland: Did I see you saying something along the lines of email stagnating around the time everyone switched to gmail?
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pep."Markdown-like syntax" in that article. This is going to come back to bite us at some point
Ge0rGpep.: that also came on the ML recently, with the suggestion to call 393 and 394 "markdown" and "markup" respectively
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pep.Yeah I've seen that one and your comment :)
Zashcries in groff
Ge0rGI had to resist the urge to counter-propose "markleft" and "markright"
Ge0rGI think that 0394 qualifies for markleft, because it's based on tags starting with <, and 0393 is markright because it specifies > as a quoting character.
Ge0rGjonasw, SamWhited: ^
jonaswI’ll slap you
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pep.Ge0rG: :D
Ge0rGjonasw: luckily I didn't attend CLT
jonaswyeah
jonaswwe still need that slapping-into-face-over-plain-TCP/IP
Ge0rGSamWhited: I'm actually glad you didn't try to fry me :D
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Ge0rG> How do you use emoji reactions in a mission-critical way?
🤣
ZashWho are you calling a rectangle?!
jonaswfry: not sure if demonstration on how to do that or quote and laughter.
flowjonasw, what's your stance on swapping the names of xep39(3|4)?
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jonaswflow, I said that I’m going to change the name of 394 anyways, so I don’t really care
jonaswI’m not sure either styling or markup really applies
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flowjonasw, what shall be the new name of xep394?
jonaswswapping the names seems like a bad idea though
jonaswnot sure
flowXEP-0394: Not Sure
jonaswseems legit
flowThat appears to be confusing
Ge0rGjonasw: "markleft"
jonaswGe0rG, no.
flowText Style Annotations
ZashYou are thinking too 2D
jonaswmaybe Markup Annotation or something which carries the notion that it’s not directly inside the message
ZashMarkforward!
Ge0rGjonasw: you don't really care, and "markleft" and "markright" are great memory hooks
jonaswGe0rG, they’re also bad for people with right/left weakness :P
ZashMark Here
flowMark Tawin
jonaswintended typo?
flowI'm just going to say 'yes'
jonaswI don’t see the joke then :)
Ge0rGjonasw: don't get all ableism on me
Ge0rGWhat about Mark Zuckerberg?
flowI've heard he is pretty rich
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Ge0rGrich text formatting with zuck-up!
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moparisthebesthaha the irony is excellent, that slack-bait-and-switch hn thread a guy 'I'm writing an open source client...' -> follows link -> 'The app will be open-sourced at some point, so you don't have to worry about it being abandoned.'
jonaswlolwat
moparisthebestI fell for that once with minecraft, never again
jonaswi don’t like that "we’ll open source that at some point"
ZashMinetest!
moparisthebestyea minetest is excellent :)
jonaswpeople who don’t open source right away usually won’t lose their reasons not to later on
jonaswSyndace might be an exception, still wary on that one ;-) (jk)
moparisthebestah I can link directly to the comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567285
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Syndacejonasw, Haha nice one :D
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jonaswmulti-protocol client. suuure
jonasw> There will also be an affordable premium plan for things like having more than 5 accounts. The base functionality will always be free.
jonasw> Open-Source
jonaswnope
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moparisthebestbut he's fixing the walled garden problem jonasw
jonaswdeak
jonasw*yeah
moparisthebesthe even says so...
moparisthebest:)
jonaswmulti-protocol messengers have always been the best
jonaswCeterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
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moparisthebestespecially ones written in pure C
moparisthebestthey never have security issues
jonaswmoparisthebest, you should renick to "multiprotocolisthebest"
jonaswIN PURE C
jonaswholy smokes
rion=)
jonaswI thought we were past this stage
ZashC is nice. In small doses.
moparisthebestI dislike 100mb javascript monstrosities too, but the solution to me doesn't seem to be 'rewrite everything in "pure C"'
jonaswyeah
jonaswusing something inherently memory-unsafe in 2018 seems like a super stupid thing to do.
jonaswespecially if network interfaced
jonaswI’d go along with C++. that has at least the option of writing mostly compile-time checked memory-safe code.
jonasw> eul is a registered company, and all binaries are signed. Your data is safe.
jonaswI’ll... just ... stop reading that site now
moparisthebestmainly the irony of being linked from that thread and 'solving the walled garden problem' was the best part :)
Ge0rGhe was plugging eul in earlier threads as well.
KevSlack doesn't give me much grief using the Slack client, although it's annoying, but Discord...someone makes a nice open source Discord transport and they will be my friend.
Ge0rGsomeone make a nice XMPP client.
edhelasKev wow you need a lots of effort to be your friend
KevGe0rG: I'm working on that.
Link Mauvehttps://securelist.com/somebodys-watching-when-cameras-are-more-than-just-smart/84309/ Botnet control by Samsung using XMPP~
jonaswGe0rG, I’m working on that.
KevIt's C++ and it's Qt and I hope this could be the year of XMPP on the desktop ;)
Ge0rG> the entire Hanwha smart camera cloud is a Jabber server. It has so-called rooms, with cameras of one type in each room. An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server.
Sound security design. I'm on the look for a "web cam" style camera I can point to the great view I have in the new home
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jonaswlol
ZashKev: Haven't you heard? The desktop is obsolete!
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Seve/SouLBetter someone build an XMPP Discord-kind-of-client
jonaswshould probably take a look at discord at some point
KevMuch like Slack.
KevExcept you can't have multiple accounts
jonaswI never used slack
KevMuch like Discord.
jonaswELOOP
ZashSomeone wanna take one for the team and look at all these things and tell us what their point is?
KevI use both extensively.
Zashgoes and sits in the "IRC and XMPP are fine, why would you want all that garbage?" corner.
jonaswKev, wanna agree on how to handle Emoji Reactions and do a field test?
KevZash: They both do things that are useful and XMPP doesn't do, to my eyes.
Kevjonasw: Reference.
Link MauveLast argument I heard for Discord was “it’s possible to do an audio conference at any moment, so we should migrate that in the eventuality we may want to do one someday”.
jonaswbut there are many details
Seve/SouLKev, it would be nice to know which kind of things we are missing then
KevThat's the easy answer for live messages. For non-live messages we need the server archive to understand references.
Link MauveI then proceeded to close this biboumi tab to never come back there.
ZashKev: Things.
jonaswKev, I argue that Message Attaching is more well-suited for emoji reactions, but feel free to weigh in if you disagree. I consider that one of the more irrelevant details though.
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ZashKev: All I hear are repeats of my Skype hating days. "XMPP just can't replace Skype" - said by peolpe who use it exactly as you would IRC
Kevjonasw: I *think* that References simply supersedes Message Attaching, once it's fleshed out.
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jonaswKev, it does too much
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KevZash: I think you can give me a little mileage in having an understanding of XMPP if I think some of the things Slack does that I use are hard to currently do in XMPP :)
jonaswbut I argue that in the linked thing already
KevAnd Reactions that Jonas is talking about is one useful example.
KevOther things are what I'm hoping to build on top of MIX once we've got MIX usefully out there.
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Ge0rGI've abandoned MIX by now.
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Ge0rGI'm also in favor of Message Attaching over References for reactions, because what jonasw said
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Ge0rGI could live with a reference containing the message ID and a type='reaction', though
jonaswKev, also, my beef with references would be that it uses codepoint ranges into body but doesn’t handle multiple languages. that’s not relevant to reactions, but I expect some breakage originating from that.
Ge0rGhowever, neither XEP provides an element to put the actual reaction into
jonasw(and thus namespace bumps for things irrelevant to reactions)
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jonaswGe0rG, I’d just put that as a simpling into the <message/>
jonaswGe0rG, I’d just put that as a sibling into the <message/>
Ge0rGjonasw: my point is: we need a separate reactions XEP anyway
jonaswyeah, that’s true
jonaswhm, actually, I might post some aggregated feedback on references, I am finding quite a few things I dislike about it when reading it
Kevjonasw: Give it a week or so, Edwin's sending out a major update imminently.
jonaswKev, oh-kay
jonaswKev, no wait, I’m going to send out that feedback anyways. From how I see things working usually, the major update will be delayed for some reason and then my feedback is lost, because I’ll forget about it
KevOr send it anyway and Edwin can integrate it, either way.
jonaswalso, maybe it can be incorporated into that update :)
jonaswyeah
Seve/SouLAre you just considering Reactions emoji-only things?
Zash<reaction>meh</reaction>
Ge0rGSeve/SouL: no, but emoji will be the recommended way to react.
Ge0rGSeve/SouL: the challenge is to determine how many codepoints correspond to one emoji
ZashA bunch
Zash<{reaction}meh/>
KevWhy do you need to count the codepoints in an emoji? They're the reaction, not the source
ZashDid someone suggest shoving semantics into <body>? Otherwise there shouldn't be any need for codepoint counting.
jonaswI did not.
jonaswI only want to shove fallback into <body/> :)
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Ge0rGKev: in case somebody wants to limit reactions to "at most one emoji"
Ge0rGso you can't write a novel in there.
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KevFor this one thing, I think not having a fallback is actually sensible Jonas.
flowwhere is +notify specified? Is it only that single sentence in xep163?
Zashflow: might be a bit in 60 too
Kev9.2, 60.
jonaswKev, why?
ZashSpam?
flowhmm then xep163 is misleading, it tells me that appending +notify will make me receive all notifications related to the protocol that precedes the suffix
jonaswZash, if in response to the Reactions thing: people are doing that already anyways
ZashIsn't half the point of these to compress eg a ton of 👍 replies?
flowwhereas xep60 tells that that I will only receive notifications about the node whose NodeID is the prefix
ZashNo the obvious solution here is to write a message with only 'm', which triggers a bot to say "$name says +1". Now you got twice the spam.
Zash(This what actually went on in those Skype channels)
jonasw(not to mention that if we don’t have a body on the message, it will be omitted from many archives.)
jonasw(or may not be carbon-copied or something)
Kevflow: How are the nodes named in 163?
jonaswZash, I feel you’ve got quite a trauma from skype.
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Kevjonasw: We need to update how archiving works in the world of references. And it's by archiving bare-JID.
Zashjonasw: Mmmmmmmmyeah
flowKev, xep163 doesn't really name nodes, its protocols like tune who do
jonaswZash, so, I’ve seen people in MUCs already doing the "name\n> message\nemoji" thing.
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flowbut what if such protocols define multiple nodes? xep163 gives the impression that I'll get notifications for all of them by a single +notify
Zashjonasw: right
moparisthebestthat article is interesting "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol."
flowfrom the articel's "Message sent over XMPP using a test account created for research purposes" picture
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ralphmKev: the idea of splitting resources, as in the examples in MIX, have those ever been written up?
KevI don't remember if I've put anything about it into bind2 or not.
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ralphmI didn't find it in XEP-0386. I did notice it being expired.
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ralphmKev: in any case, the paragraph confused us here
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Ge0rGI really hope that those split resources are going to die soon.
moparisthebestsorry I got cut-off mid-type there it says "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol." but then proceeds to say the *real* problem
moparisthebest"An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server."
moparisthebestwhich is addressed in the base spec, not even an extension, in fact arbitrary account registration could just be off...
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: I think you are preaching to the choir
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winfriedWhen designing a protocol, you have to anticipate on user and implementer stupidity, but this a level of stupidity I would not be able to anticipate....
ZashWhat's the saying?
moparisthebestwell sure, just pointing out how dumb it is, it's only seperated by 2 sentences, don't know why an otherwise smart reviewer would do that
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ZashIf you design something idiot-proof, the universe will design a better idiot?
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Guushargh. Did some kind of DST change happen anywhere in the world, recently?
pep.Lots
pep.It's the week of hell
moparisthebestyea EST did sunday morning
moparisthebestor EDT, whatever, flipped between them one way or the other :)
jonaswthis time the last weekend is split between march and april, so I’m unsure
jonaswright, march 25th in DE
jonaswso probably the same in europe
moparisthebestwhenever I think about how terrible timezones and DST are now, I just imagine how much more terrible it'll be when people live on other planets :)
Zashjonasw: Yay EU-standardization
jonaswmoparisthebest, star time 1520872849
GuusI think all board members are in the same DST-change period, but council might not be. SamWhited, you're probably the only one this week with a different time. Don't be like Guus and miss a meeting.
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SamWhitedack; I forgot about that, thanks.
Guus(afaik, both board and council fixed the time to London time, thus using its DST switchover date, whenever that might be).
moparisthebestjonasw, maybe but it won't be like that in the beginning, if people go to mars in the next 50 years or whatever it'll just be yet-another-far-harder-to-calculate-timezone, presumably
GuusWell, you probably would've been an hour early, and not missed it by an hour, like I just did. :)
ralphmZash: it is actually 'the last Sunday in March'.
jonaswthat makes sense
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Ge0rGIt's really exciting what you can do with timezones (this is from 10 years ago) https://op-co.de/1984.html
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moparisthebestam I the only one to find the opkode.com vs op-co.de distinction super confusing
MattJNope
Ge0rGI find it too.
moparisthebestI read about half of the opkode.com blogpost earlier thinking odd Ge0rG updated his website until I got to the 'author of converse.js' part
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Ge0rGI don't know how to resolve this problem, besides of undeservedly bitching on JC
moparisthebestif you weren't both involved in XMPP it wouldn't be so bad :)
Zash#OPCODEBOWL
moparisthebestwe clearly need a dual to the death
moparisthebestduel even
ZashCleganebowl can go throw itself into the wall! Opcodebowl hype!!!
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jonaswduel to death sounds like a bad idea
jonaswreally bad
jonaswGe0rG will lose
jonaswjc knows how to wield a sword.
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jonaswI’ve seen things
moparisthebestbut what a way to go out
Ge0rGputs on his wizard hat
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Ge0rGhttps://github.com/davisonio/awesome-irc - we need the same for XMPP!
moparisthebestso the same as https://github.com/moparisthebest/freespeech if the wordlist just consisted of 1024 emojis
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jjrhGe0rG, we already have it https://github.com/bluszcz/awesome-xmpp
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MattJand it lists 'Pidgin' under 'Clients'
jjrhI'm not saying it's perfect
Zashawesome used to mean something
jjrhIt's also missing a lot of stuff. Gajim isn't even listed :p
SamWhitedIf it's about "awesome" clients that's going to be a short list…
ZashNow it seems to just be some curated list of stuff.
jjrhnot sure if you guys are being facetious or not - the 'awesome' thing is just a github thing for a repo that is just a big list of resources/information relating to something. It doesn't really quantify quality
ZashIt used to be a window manager!
SamWhitedI think some of my coworkers still use it as their window manager
SamWhitedBut maybe that means it's just a list of window managers, most of which aren't actually "awesome"?
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MattJZash, it still is!
jjrhIt's reasonably popular still I think. I was never able to adapt to tiling first workflow
MattJMy window manager can do XMPP!
SamWhitedI use i3, but keep meaning to try awesome. No idea what the difference is.
MattJ=> awesome XMPP
Zashi3 represent!
MattJThe downside is that I only got it working in blocking mode, so my desktop was unusable
SamWhited*highfive*
jjrhI should try i3 again - but I'm guessing even if it's great i'll never manage to get used to it coming from openbox
ZashMattJ: Cool story bro
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ZashI'm happy with i3, in that I finally found a window manager that let switch virtual desktops separately on each monitor
ZashAnd does tabs
SamWhitedI used to use a mix of open box and xfce-wm, but stopped when I switched to i3 full time.
Seve/SouLI use KDE Plasma
SamWhitedWhat Zash said; that was the big draw for me as well.
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jjrhDoes it play nice with floating windows? What I always wanted was tiling for one monitor/virtual desktop and floating for others.
ZashI've been trying to switch to LuaKit for browsing, so that i3 can do the window management instead of the browser
Zashbuuuut now I'm back with a ton of firefox tabs :(
moparisthebestI still use KDE since 2006 , been meaning to try i3 though
jjrhI got a coworker still using twm
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Zashjjrh: duno what qualifies as nice, but it lets you have floating windows if you want to
Seve/SouLmoparisthebest, noo, please don't leave me alone on this
jjrhI guess can I get the best of both worlds? Because some stuff like coding I want tiled but a lot of other stuff is better floating.
jjrhBecause I tried one tiling wm - umm a haskell one forget the name - and it was like "yeah you can do floating but uh don't"
moparisthebestSeve/SouL: I've tried various things and never liked them, lxdm, gnome, xfce etc, i3 is much more different though, we'll see
SamWhitedi3 will respect whatever the free desktop attribute thing is that windows can set to say "I should be floating", so most tiny windows that should be floating already are in my experience
Zashand you can write rules in the config
jjrhCan you set a workspace to be floating by default? Basically can I use i3 like I use openbox but have a few workspaces that are tiled?
ZashDuno, floating is set per window usually
ZashProbably doable with some config
jjrhI guess I should give it a go at some point.
jjrhWith the workspace per monitor - will it just make double the workspaces when you lose a display (aka undock your laptop) because that would be super rad.
ZashI'd recommend trying dwm too
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ZashUsed it way back before laptops, it was very nice
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Zashbut on laptops it's always ended with abrupt power failure due to no battery monitoring
Zashmight be better now, it's probably managed by systemd these days ..
jjrhMy pain is I have 2 monitors and I undock my laptop and not only is my laptop not 1080p so that messes stuff up - but all the windows from the two screens get crammed into one virtual desktop
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jjrhso if i3 treats each monitor as a workspace then it should play nice with switching from 2 to 1 monitors.
Zashif your video drivers are sane enough, you'd just get all the workspaces moved onto the other monitor
SamWhitedThat seems to be what mine does; I unplug my monitor and windows remain exactly the same on whatever workspace they were on (except maybe resized a bit)
ZashThe nicest thing is being able to move entire workspaces between monitors
ZashIIRC no keybinding for it by default, but one can be set
SamWhitedAlthough I don't actually use a multi-monitor setup anymore; got an ultrawide and haven't looked back.
ZashI've mostly got an xclock on the laptops monitor :)
Zashand an xterm to mke the clock be the right shape
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Zashhttps://www.zash.se/upload/za9lYCrKESH1.png
jjrhZash, that's the problem - I want my wm to be smart enough to instead put them on a virtual desktop so everything isn't crammed together.
jjrhSo if I3 treats each monitor as a virtual desktop/workspace it should do the right thing.
ZashHm?
jjrhLike when I undock my laptop (which docked has 2 monitors) all the windows between two monitors go to one - which makes a big mess.
ZashYeah, not like most others where it's treated as a single large workspace that covers all monitors
jjrhYeah exactly - so that's awesome if that's what i3 does :)
ZashIt is and it is
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Ge0rGI'm using fluxbox for something like 14 years now, and recently switched from VMware to VirtualBox. The latter seems to get something wrong, so I never see the full screen overlay. 😐
jjrhI'd suggest you switch to openbox - I started on fluxbox but eventually switched.
jjrhdepending how complex your config is it should be pretty painless.
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jjrhI don't think anyone has been working on fluxbox for a long time.
Ge0rGPretty complex.
Ge0rGFunny thing. I've met the fluxbox maintainer in real life, long before realizing that he's the maintainer, on a retro irc party, when those were a thing
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jjrhYeah - might take a bit of time then. Everything is XML config in openbox and I think they renamed a few things so it's not a 1-1 mapping unfortunately.
Ge0rGI shouldn't be complaining about xml too loudly in this channel
jjrhnot complaining - just pointing out it's radically different than fluxbox configs :)
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jjrhOuch - looks like last release for openbox was 2010 :(
ZashXML for config? Mmmmhm.
jjrhIf I remember correctly the fluxbox configs were really brittle, one wrong space and everything breaks.
moparisthebestGe0rG: might go ahead and and skip virtualbox and go directly to virt-manager/kvm
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moparisthebestI wish I had
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Ge0rGmoparisthebest: Hm. Does it run macOS and Windows on a Linux host?
moparisthebestGe0rG: windows for sure
moparisthebestProbably Mac? Haven't tried
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Holgerjjrh: I used Notion (successor of Ion3) in the past, that one has full-blown support for floating vs. tiling workspaces and handles multiple displays like i3 does.
jjrhInteresting - thanks for that :)
Holgerjjrh: I also ended up with i3 though. It's the younger and easier project and way more popular these days. Compared to that, Notion feels a bit clumsy, with a somewhat complex Lua configuration; i3 has a straightforward key=value config file.
ZashI see no `=` in `bindsym $mod+Tab move workspace to output right`
HolgerWell it's straightforward at least :-)
HolgerIt's actually commands that take arguments, yes.