Dave Cridland, I heard you had some (internal? non-public?) client which does reactions. Would you care to give feedback to this? https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/80
jonasw
Ge0rG, no
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Tobias
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567009
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Ge0rG
Tobias: HN is probably downgrading / shadowkilling upvotes from direct links, it's better to go from the main page.
Tobias
HN users probably know it and can go back to the mainpage to upvote
Ge0rG
Maybe.
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daniel
Nice good job
daniel
Don't even care about the content but having xmpp on the front page of HN is always an achievement
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Zash
Dave Cridland: Did I see you saying something along the lines of email stagnating around the time everyone switched to gmail?
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pep.
"Markdown-like syntax" in that article. This is going to come back to bite us at some point
Ge0rG
pep.: that also came on the ML recently, with the suggestion to call 393 and 394 "markdown" and "markup" respectively
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pep.
Yeah I've seen that one and your comment :)
Zashcries in groff
Ge0rG
I had to resist the urge to counter-propose "markleft" and "markright"
Ge0rG
I think that 0394 qualifies for markleft, because it's based on tags starting with <, and 0393 is markright because it specifies > as a quoting character.
Ge0rG
jonasw, SamWhited: ^
jonasw
I’ll slap you
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pep.
Ge0rG: :D
Ge0rG
jonasw: luckily I didn't attend CLT
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
we still need that slapping-into-face-over-plain-TCP/IP
SamWhited: I'm actually glad you didn't try to fry me :D
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Ge0rG
> How do you use emoji reactions in a mission-critical way?
🤣
Zash
Who are you calling a rectangle?!
jonasw
fry: not sure if demonstration on how to do that or quote and laughter.
flow
jonasw, what's your stance on swapping the names of xep39(3|4)?
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jonasw
flow, I said that I’m going to change the name of 394 anyways, so I don’t really care
jonasw
I’m not sure either styling or markup really applies
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flow
jonasw, what shall be the new name of xep394?
jonasw
swapping the names seems like a bad idea though
jonasw
not sure
flow
XEP-0394: Not Sure
jonasw
seems legit
flow
That appears to be confusing
Ge0rG
jonasw: "markleft"
jonasw
Ge0rG, no.
flow
Text Style Annotations
Zash
You are thinking too 2D
jonasw
maybe Markup Annotation or something which carries the notion that it’s not directly inside the message
Zash
Markforward!
Ge0rG
jonasw: you don't really care, and "markleft" and "markright" are great memory hooks
jonasw
Ge0rG, they’re also bad for people with right/left weakness :P
Zash
Mark Here
flow
Mark Tawin
jonasw
intended typo?
flow
I'm just going to say 'yes'
jonasw
I don’t see the joke then :)
Ge0rG
jonasw: don't get all ableism on me
Ge0rG
What about Mark Zuckerberg?
flow
I've heard he is pretty rich
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Ge0rG
rich text formatting with zuck-up!
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moparisthebest
haha the irony is excellent, that slack-bait-and-switch hn thread a guy 'I'm writing an open source client...' -> follows link -> 'The app will be open-sourced at some point, so you don't have to worry about it being abandoned.'
jonasw
lolwat
moparisthebest
I fell for that once with minecraft, never again
jonasw
i don’t like that "we’ll open source that at some point"
Zash
Minetest!
moparisthebest
yea minetest is excellent :)
jonasw
people who don’t open source right away usually won’t lose their reasons not to later on
jonasw
Syndace might be an exception, still wary on that one ;-) (jk)
moparisthebest
ah I can link directly to the comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16567285
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Syndace
jonasw, Haha nice one :D
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jonasw
multi-protocol client. suuure
jonasw
> There will also be an affordable premium plan for things like having more than 5 accounts. The base functionality will always be free.
jonasw
> Open-Source
jonasw
nope
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moparisthebest
but he's fixing the walled garden problem jonasw
jonasw
deak
jonasw
*yeah
moparisthebest
he even says so...
moparisthebest
:)
jonasw
multi-protocol messengers have always been the best
jonasw
Ceterum Censeo Pidgin Delendam Esse.
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moparisthebest
especially ones written in pure C
moparisthebest
they never have security issues
jonasw
moparisthebest, you should renick to "multiprotocolisthebest"
jonasw
IN PURE C
jonasw
holy smokes
rion
=)
jonasw
I thought we were past this stage
Zash
C is nice. In small doses.
moparisthebest
I dislike 100mb javascript monstrosities too, but the solution to me doesn't seem to be 'rewrite everything in "pure C"'
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
using something inherently memory-unsafe in 2018 seems like a super stupid thing to do.
jonasw
especially if network interfaced
jonasw
I’d go along with C++. that has at least the option of writing mostly compile-time checked memory-safe code.
jonasw
> eul is a registered company, and all binaries are signed. Your data is safe.
jonasw
I’ll... just ... stop reading that site now
moparisthebest
mainly the irony of being linked from that thread and 'solving the walled garden problem' was the best part :)
Ge0rG
he was plugging eul in earlier threads as well.
Kev
Slack doesn't give me much grief using the Slack client, although it's annoying, but Discord...someone makes a nice open source Discord transport and they will be my friend.
Ge0rG
someone make a nice XMPP client.
edhelas
Kev wow you need a lots of effort to be your friend
Kev
Ge0rG: I'm working on that.
Link Mauve
https://securelist.com/somebodys-watching-when-cameras-are-more-than-just-smart/84309/ Botnet control by Samsung using XMPP~
jonasw
Ge0rG, I’m working on that.
Kev
It's C++ and it's Qt and I hope this could be the year of XMPP on the desktop ;)
Ge0rG
> the entire Hanwha smart camera cloud is a Jabber server. It has so-called rooms, with cameras of one type in each room. An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server.
Sound security design. I'm on the look for a "web cam" style camera I can point to the great view I have in the new home
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jonasw
lol
Zash
Kev: Haven't you heard? The desktop is obsolete!
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Seve/SouL
Better someone build an XMPP Discord-kind-of-client
jonasw
should probably take a look at discord at some point
Kev
Much like Slack.
Kev
Except you can't have multiple accounts
jonasw
I never used slack
Kev
Much like Discord.
jonasw
ELOOP
Zash
Someone wanna take one for the team and look at all these things and tell us what their point is?
Kev
I use both extensively.
Zashgoes and sits in the "IRC and XMPP are fine, why would you want all that garbage?" corner.
jonasw
Kev, wanna agree on how to handle Emoji Reactions and do a field test?
Kev
Zash: They both do things that are useful and XMPP doesn't do, to my eyes.
Kev
jonasw: Reference.
Link Mauve
Last argument I heard for Discord was “it’s possible to do an audio conference at any moment, so we should migrate that in the eventuality we may want to do one someday”.
jonasw
but there are many details
Seve/SouL
Kev, it would be nice to know which kind of things we are missing then
That's the easy answer for live messages. For non-live messages we need the server archive to understand references.
Link Mauve
I then proceeded to close this biboumi tab to never come back there.
Zash
Kev: Things.
jonasw
Kev, I argue that Message Attaching is more well-suited for emoji reactions, but feel free to weigh in if you disagree. I consider that one of the more irrelevant details though.
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Zash
Kev: All I hear are repeats of my Skype hating days. "XMPP just can't replace Skype" - said by peolpe who use it exactly as you would IRC
Kev
jonasw: I *think* that References simply supersedes Message Attaching, once it's fleshed out.
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jonasw
Kev, it does too much
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Kev
Zash: I think you can give me a little mileage in having an understanding of XMPP if I think some of the things Slack does that I use are hard to currently do in XMPP :)
jonasw
but I argue that in the linked thing already
Kev
And Reactions that Jonas is talking about is one useful example.
Kev
Other things are what I'm hoping to build on top of MIX once we've got MIX usefully out there.
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Ge0rG
I've abandoned MIX by now.
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Ge0rG
I'm also in favor of Message Attaching over References for reactions, because what jonasw said
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Ge0rG
I could live with a reference containing the message ID and a type='reaction', though
jonasw
Kev, also, my beef with references would be that it uses codepoint ranges into body but doesn’t handle multiple languages. that’s not relevant to reactions, but I expect some breakage originating from that.
Ge0rG
however, neither XEP provides an element to put the actual reaction into
jonasw
(and thus namespace bumps for things irrelevant to reactions)
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jonasw
Ge0rG, I’d just put that as a simpling into the <message/>✎
jonasw
Ge0rG, I’d just put that as a sibling into the <message/> ✏
Ge0rG
jonasw: my point is: we need a separate reactions XEP anyway
jonasw
yeah, that’s true
jonasw
hm, actually, I might post some aggregated feedback on references, I am finding quite a few things I dislike about it when reading it
Kev
jonasw: Give it a week or so, Edwin's sending out a major update imminently.
jonasw
Kev, oh-kay
jonasw
Kev, no wait, I’m going to send out that feedback anyways. From how I see things working usually, the major update will be delayed for some reason and then my feedback is lost, because I’ll forget about it
Kev
Or send it anyway and Edwin can integrate it, either way.
jonasw
also, maybe it can be incorporated into that update :)
jonasw
yeah
Seve/SouL
Are you just considering Reactions emoji-only things?
Zash
<reaction>meh</reaction>
Ge0rG
Seve/SouL: no, but emoji will be the recommended way to react.
Ge0rG
Seve/SouL: the challenge is to determine how many codepoints correspond to one emoji
Zash
A bunch
Zash
<{reaction}meh/>
Kev
Why do you need to count the codepoints in an emoji? They're the reaction, not the source
Zash
Did someone suggest shoving semantics into <body>? Otherwise there shouldn't be any need for codepoint counting.
jonasw
I did not.
jonasw
I only want to shove fallback into <body/> :)
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Ge0rG
Kev: in case somebody wants to limit reactions to "at most one emoji"
Ge0rG
so you can't write a novel in there.
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Kev
For this one thing, I think not having a fallback is actually sensible Jonas.
flow
where is +notify specified? Is it only that single sentence in xep163?
Zash
flow: might be a bit in 60 too
Kev
9.2, 60.
jonasw
Kev, why?
Zash
Spam?
flow
hmm then xep163 is misleading, it tells me that appending +notify will make me receive all notifications related to the protocol that precedes the suffix
jonasw
Zash, if in response to the Reactions thing: people are doing that already anyways
Zash
Isn't half the point of these to compress eg a ton of 👍 replies?
flow
whereas xep60 tells that that I will only receive notifications about the node whose NodeID is the prefix
Zash
No the obvious solution here is to write a message with only 'm', which triggers a bot to say "$name says +1". Now you got twice the spam.
Zash
(This what actually went on in those Skype channels)
jonasw
(not to mention that if we don’t have a body on the message, it will be omitted from many archives.)
jonasw
(or may not be carbon-copied or something)
Kev
flow: How are the nodes named in 163?
jonasw
Zash, I feel you’ve got quite a trauma from skype.
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Kev
jonasw: We need to update how archiving works in the world of references. And it's by archiving bare-JID.
Zash
jonasw: Mmmmmmmmyeah
flow
Kev, xep163 doesn't really name nodes, its protocols like tune who do
jonasw
Zash, so, I’ve seen people in MUCs already doing the "name\n> message\nemoji" thing.
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flow
but what if such protocols define multiple nodes? xep163 gives the impression that I'll get notifications for all of them by a single +notify
Zash
jonasw: right
moparisthebest
that article is interesting "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol."
from the articel's "Message sent over XMPP using a test account created for research purposes" picture
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ralphm
Kev: the idea of splitting resources, as in the examples in MIX, have those ever been written up?
Kev
I don't remember if I've put anything about it into bind2 or not.
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ralphm
I didn't find it in XEP-0386. I did notice it being expired.
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ralphm
Kev: in any case, the paragraph confused us here
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Ge0rG
I really hope that those split resources are going to die soon.
moparisthebest
sorry I got cut-off mid-type there it says "One of the main problems associated with the cloud architecture is that it is based on the XMPP protocol." but then proceeds to say the *real* problem
moparisthebest
"An attacker could register an arbitrary account on the Jabber server and gain access to all rooms on that server."
moparisthebest
which is addressed in the base spec, not even an extension, in fact arbitrary account registration could just be off...
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: I think you are preaching to the choir
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winfried
When designing a protocol, you have to anticipate on user and implementer stupidity, but this a level of stupidity I would not be able to anticipate....
Zash
What's the saying?
moparisthebest
well sure, just pointing out how dumb it is, it's only seperated by 2 sentences, don't know why an otherwise smart reviewer would do that
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Zash
If you design something idiot-proof, the universe will design a better idiot?
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Guus
hargh. Did some kind of DST change happen anywhere in the world, recently?
pep.
Lots
pep.
It's the week of hell
moparisthebest
yea EST did sunday morning
moparisthebest
or EDT, whatever, flipped between them one way or the other :)
this time the last weekend is split between march and april, so I’m unsure
jonasw
right, march 25th in DE
jonasw
so probably the same in europe
moparisthebest
whenever I think about how terrible timezones and DST are now, I just imagine how much more terrible it'll be when people live on other planets :)
Zash
jonasw: Yay EU-standardization
jonasw
moparisthebest, star time 1520872849
Guus
I think all board members are in the same DST-change period, but council might not be. SamWhited, you're probably the only one this week with a different time. Don't be like Guus and miss a meeting.
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SamWhited
ack; I forgot about that, thanks.
Guus
(afaik, both board and council fixed the time to London time, thus using its DST switchover date, whenever that might be).
moparisthebest
jonasw, maybe but it won't be like that in the beginning, if people go to mars in the next 50 years or whatever it'll just be yet-another-far-harder-to-calculate-timezone, presumably
Guus
Well, you probably would've been an hour early, and not missed it by an hour, like I just did. :)
ralphm
Zash: it is actually 'the last Sunday in March'.
jonasw
that makes sense
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Ge0rG
It's really exciting what you can do with timezones (this is from 10 years ago) https://op-co.de/1984.html
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moparisthebest
am I the only one to find the opkode.com vs op-co.de distinction super confusing
MattJ
Nope
Ge0rG
I find it too.
moparisthebest
I read about half of the opkode.com blogpost earlier thinking odd Ge0rG updated his website until I got to the 'author of converse.js' part
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Ge0rG
I don't know how to resolve this problem, besides of undeservedly bitching on JC
moparisthebest
if you weren't both involved in XMPP it wouldn't be so bad :)
Zash
#OPCODEBOWL
moparisthebest
we clearly need a dual to the death
moparisthebest
duel even
Zash
Cleganebowl can go throw itself into the wall! Opcodebowl hype!!!
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jonasw
duel to death sounds like a bad idea
jonasw
really bad
jonasw
Ge0rG will lose
jonasw
jc knows how to wield a sword.
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jonasw
I’ve seen things
moparisthebest
but what a way to go out
Ge0rGputs on his wizard hat
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Ge0rG
https://github.com/davisonio/awesome-irc - we need the same for XMPP!
so the same as https://github.com/moparisthebest/freespeech if the wordlist just consisted of 1024 emojis
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jjrh
Ge0rG, we already have it https://github.com/bluszcz/awesome-xmpp
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MattJ
and it lists 'Pidgin' under 'Clients'
jjrh
I'm not saying it's perfect
Zash
awesome used to mean something
jjrh
It's also missing a lot of stuff. Gajim isn't even listed :p
SamWhited
If it's about "awesome" clients that's going to be a short list…
Zash
Now it seems to just be some curated list of stuff.
jjrh
not sure if you guys are being facetious or not - the 'awesome' thing is just a github thing for a repo that is just a big list of resources/information relating to something. It doesn't really quantify quality
Zash
It used to be a window manager!
SamWhited
I think some of my coworkers still use it as their window manager
SamWhited
But maybe that means it's just a list of window managers, most of which aren't actually "awesome"?
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MattJ
Zash, it still is!
jjrh
It's reasonably popular still I think. I was never able to adapt to tiling first workflow
MattJ
My window manager can do XMPP!
SamWhited
I use i3, but keep meaning to try awesome. No idea what the difference is.
MattJ
=> awesome XMPP
Zash
i3 represent!
MattJ
The downside is that I only got it working in blocking mode, so my desktop was unusable
SamWhited
*highfive*
jjrh
I should try i3 again - but I'm guessing even if it's great i'll never manage to get used to it coming from openbox
Zash
MattJ: Cool story bro
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Zash
I'm happy with i3, in that I finally found a window manager that let switch virtual desktops separately on each monitor
Zash
And does tabs
SamWhited
I used to use a mix of open box and xfce-wm, but stopped when I switched to i3 full time.
Seve/SouL
I use KDE Plasma
SamWhited
What Zash said; that was the big draw for me as well.
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jjrh
Does it play nice with floating windows? What I always wanted was tiling for one monitor/virtual desktop and floating for others.
Zash
I've been trying to switch to LuaKit for browsing, so that i3 can do the window management instead of the browser
Zash
buuuut now I'm back with a ton of firefox tabs :(
moparisthebest
I still use KDE since 2006 , been meaning to try i3 though
jjrh
I got a coworker still using twm
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Zash
jjrh: duno what qualifies as nice, but it lets you have floating windows if you want to
Seve/SouL
moparisthebest, noo, please don't leave me alone on this
jjrh
I guess can I get the best of both worlds? Because some stuff like coding I want tiled but a lot of other stuff is better floating.
jjrh
Because I tried one tiling wm - umm a haskell one forget the name - and it was like "yeah you can do floating but uh don't"
moparisthebest
Seve/SouL: I've tried various things and never liked them, lxdm, gnome, xfce etc, i3 is much more different though, we'll see
SamWhited
i3 will respect whatever the free desktop attribute thing is that windows can set to say "I should be floating", so most tiny windows that should be floating already are in my experience
Zash
and you can write rules in the config
jjrh
Can you set a workspace to be floating by default? Basically can I use i3 like I use openbox but have a few workspaces that are tiled?
Zash
Duno, floating is set per window usually
Zash
Probably doable with some config
jjrh
I guess I should give it a go at some point.
jjrh
With the workspace per monitor - will it just make double the workspaces when you lose a display (aka undock your laptop) because that would be super rad.
Zash
I'd recommend trying dwm too
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Zash
Used it way back before laptops, it was very nice
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Zash
but on laptops it's always ended with abrupt power failure due to no battery monitoring
Zash
might be better now, it's probably managed by systemd these days ..
jjrh
My pain is I have 2 monitors and I undock my laptop and not only is my laptop not 1080p so that messes stuff up - but all the windows from the two screens get crammed into one virtual desktop
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jjrh
so if i3 treats each monitor as a workspace then it should play nice with switching from 2 to 1 monitors.
Zash
if your video drivers are sane enough, you'd just get all the workspaces moved onto the other monitor
SamWhited
That seems to be what mine does; I unplug my monitor and windows remain exactly the same on whatever workspace they were on (except maybe resized a bit)
Zash
The nicest thing is being able to move entire workspaces between monitors
Zash
IIRC no keybinding for it by default, but one can be set
SamWhited
Although I don't actually use a multi-monitor setup anymore; got an ultrawide and haven't looked back.
Zash
I've mostly got an xclock on the laptops monitor :)
Zash
and an xterm to mke the clock be the right shape
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Zash
https://www.zash.se/upload/za9lYCrKESH1.png
jjrh
Zash, that's the problem - I want my wm to be smart enough to instead put them on a virtual desktop so everything isn't crammed together.
jjrh
So if I3 treats each monitor as a virtual desktop/workspace it should do the right thing.
Zash
Hm?
jjrh
Like when I undock my laptop (which docked has 2 monitors) all the windows between two monitors go to one - which makes a big mess.
Zash
Yeah, not like most others where it's treated as a single large workspace that covers all monitors
jjrh
Yeah exactly - so that's awesome if that's what i3 does :)
Zash
It is and it is
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Ge0rG
I'm using fluxbox for something like 14 years now, and recently switched from VMware to VirtualBox. The latter seems to get something wrong, so I never see the full screen overlay. 😐
jjrh
I'd suggest you switch to openbox - I started on fluxbox but eventually switched.
jjrh
depending how complex your config is it should be pretty painless.
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jjrh
I don't think anyone has been working on fluxbox for a long time.
Ge0rG
Pretty complex.
Ge0rG
Funny thing. I've met the fluxbox maintainer in real life, long before realizing that he's the maintainer, on a retro irc party, when those were a thing
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jjrh
Yeah - might take a bit of time then. Everything is XML config in openbox and I think they renamed a few things so it's not a 1-1 mapping unfortunately.
Ge0rG
I shouldn't be complaining about xml too loudly in this channel
jjrh
not complaining - just pointing out it's radically different than fluxbox configs :)
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jjrh
Ouch - looks like last release for openbox was 2010 :(
Zash
XML for config? Mmmmhm.
jjrh
If I remember correctly the fluxbox configs were really brittle, one wrong space and everything breaks.
moparisthebest
Ge0rG: might go ahead and and skip virtualbox and go directly to virt-manager/kvm
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moparisthebest
I wish I had
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: Hm. Does it run macOS and Windows on a Linux host?
moparisthebest
Ge0rG: windows for sure
moparisthebest
Probably Mac? Haven't tried
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Holger
jjrh: I used Notion (successor of Ion3) in the past, that one has full-blown support for floating vs. tiling workspaces and handles multiple displays like i3 does.
jjrh
Interesting - thanks for that :)
Holger
jjrh: I also ended up with i3 though. It's the younger and easier project and way more popular these days. Compared to that, Notion feels a bit clumsy, with a somewhat complex Lua configuration; i3 has a straightforward key=value config file.
Zash
I see no `=` in `bindsym $mod+Tab move workspace to output right`