pep.https://gultsch.de/ daniel s/in moving/is moving/
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edhelasMattJ yup. But I'd also like to generalize to pretty much everything we have in XMPP
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goffidaniel: just seen that conversations enable OMEMO by default, what happens if the other client doesn't implement it?
jonaswfor those of us who implement/implemented voice calls: http://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/handle/1969.1/ETD-TAMU-2011-05-9116
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fippojonasw: how does that compare to opus with CBR? (something the wire folks contributed back to the webrtc.org lib)?
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jonaswfippo, I have no idea
jonaswsomeone who may work on jingle voice in jabbercat has researched that stuff
jonaswkudos to them for even thinking about timing sidechannels
jonasw(and with research I mean "looked for papers", not "written that paper")
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daniel> https://gultsch.de/ daniel s/in moving/is moving/
pep.: thanks
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goffidaniel: ^
daniel?
goffi [07:33][goffi] daniel: just seen that conversations enable OMEMO by default, what happens if the other client doesn't implement it?
danielit wont be able to decrypt the message
goffidaniel: conversations won't send it unencrypted then?
danielnot by default
danielyou can of course switch to unencrypted manually
goffidaniel: you have a warning or something obvious so people know how to do it?
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danielnope
daniel(unless you don't publish any keys at all)
goffilooks like you're breaking compatibility
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ZashAnd keys are published by ... default ?
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flowgoffi, i'd say it impedes communication with certain clients, not really a compatiblity issue
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flowI wonder if the situation could be improved a bit if the receiving client informs the sending that he doesn't the support the encryption mechanism, possibly based on EME
flowIs there a way to send outgoing messages from the bare JID to conceal the resource?
danielflow, well detection is not really the issue. downgrade attacks are
flowdaniel, how do you detect it (reliable)?
goffiflow: OMEMO is experimental, not an official standard yet. It's forcing it's use except if user change default which is not obvious to apparently. So yes it's breaking compatibility. Popular clients like Movim are not implementing it. It sounds like a terrible idea to me.
danielor let me repharse; we have mechanism that would allow us to detect under certain conditions; however that doesn't seem like a problem worth solving because downgrades
flowdaniel, I can see how that way is appealing from a pragmatic pratical point of view, i'm mostly interested thinking about potential solutions how a modular/extensible federated network could deal with multiple encryption schemes with minimal interoperability issues
danielflow: well because of the +notify thing in the Disco features we do know if a client supports omemo
danielIf we can access disco
danielSpeaking from a purely technical perspective
danielAssuming the other one is online and has presence subscription
MattJI was going to say that still allows a server MITM to strip that feature from disco
MattJBut then a server may also unpublish keys
flowMattJ, not if you always unconditional send omemo
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flownot sure what conversation's omemo-by-default does
MattJif you've communicated before?
danielMattJ, of course. that's why i'm not doing this
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flowdaniel: is there a knob to turn off omemo-by-default?
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danielnot yet. i'm still on the fence whether this is a good idea
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flowdaniel, so just to make sure I understand: If there is no such knob, I won't be able to communicate with someone using conversations if I use a client which does not support omemo?
jonasw(and you have ever published keys)
jonasw(which conversations does by default)
danieloh sorry. currently you can turn it off on a per conversation basis
danielthe encryption/lock icon doesn't go away
danieljust omemo is selected as default instead of none
flowdaniel, if the remote has published omemo keys, or always?
danielthere isn't a app wide button to change the default for all conversations
danielflow, always
jonaswwhat
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jonaswso how do you send encrypted messages if the remote hasn’t published keys?
flowahh ok, so a common flow would be that converstations send an omemo message, recipient replies "sorry, no can do", conversation user turns off omemo for that conversation
danielit will pop up the error dialog that it can't find keys
flowthat flow will always be possible?
jonaswm(
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daniel> ahh ok, so a common flow would be that converstations send an omemo message, recipient replies "sorry, no can do", conversation user turns off omemo for that conversation
that's how i imagine it. yes
jonaswI’m really looking forward explaining to family how to that
flowI think I could life with that
jonaswthat class of family for whom conversations is "ohhhh, you mean that thing on my phone"
goffidaniel: does use need to do that on each new discussion with the same user ?
goffiuser*
flowbut on the other hand, that also allows for downgrade attacks
goffidaniel: does user needs to do that on each new discussion with the same recipient ?
daniellike i said; it's only about changing the defaults
danielnot about forcing omemo
jonaswalternatively, I’ll make our MUCs non-members-only
jonaswthat should do the trick too
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danielgoffi, no conversations are persistent across the life span of the app
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danielthere is no such thing as a 'new discussion'
jonaswmy understanding was that omemo would only be enabled when conversations was able to discover keys for all participants, which I could agree to. but this is really, really bad.
goffiOK, that's better than I imagined
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goffibut I'm still worried that it's not obvious to change as you said previously. And what if recipient use OX instead? I personnaly prefer OX over OMEMO
daniellol
goffilol?
danielwe can think about that when people have implemented ox
flowtrue
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danielI feel like I'm repeating myself. But the change is just about the default. So if previously a lot of people had to tell their contacts to _enable_ omemo for a specific conversation some other people now have to tell their contacts to disable omemo
danielAnd my argument is that outside the xmpp developer bubble a lot less people now have to ask their friends to change that
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jonaswdaniel, I don’t see why you would default to enabling omemo if the contact not even has keys published
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goffiThe recipient may not even know that there is a message
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goffithen "you have to disable OMEMO" "How?" "I have not idea"
goffino*
danielwait. you don't implement eme? :-)
gofficlients not implementing OMEMO may definitely not implement eme indeed (which is not more standard than OMEMO by the way).
danielConversations will add a clear text body if it detects the other party has at least one client online that doesn't support omemo
danieli was kidding about the eme
danieli'm not a fan of eme
danielfor exactly that reason
danielbad clients don't implement it
danielgood clients probably have the encryption anyway
goffidaniel: it's not a question of bad or good, it's a question of priorities, which may differs from yours.
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goffiI have not implemented eme and I'm planning to, but Pubsub and blog stuff are more important to me.
goffiand we are not all full time devs. Thanks to avoid insulting client developers.
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edhelasdaniel there's no bad or good clients, Pidgin supports OMEMO, it's a good XMPP client for you ?
MattJdaniel, what is the error dialog like when there are no keys? Does give an option to disable OMEMO for that contact?
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danielMattJ, not yet. but there will be one if you previously haven't successfully send an omemo message
MattJThat would be great
Ge0rGOMEMO used to be a little UX nightmare. Now it has become the doom of Conversations :>
MattJI'm in favour of increasing security. End-to-end encryption with trivial downgrade attacks from the entity it's protecting against is... well, pointless
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edhelascan't wait for Conversations to support SIMS, to make it a good client again :3
MattJBut I'm not in favour of making our lives even harder in increasing adoption of XMPP though
danielsims was planed for 2.0 - but it is actually a lot harder than I thought
goffiI'm not against E2E encryption by default either, but I'm worrying about compatibility issues. And OMEMO is not a standard yet.
danielso it has to wait for 2.1 or 2.2
Ge0rGI can not implement E2EE for *ehm* Regulatory Compliance Reasons.
Ge0rGdaniel: which OMEMO namespace is Conversations using currently?
danielGe0rG, the one in the XEP :-) :-)
edhelasdaniel oh, good news :)
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Ge0rG> This specification defines the following XMPP namespaces:
> - eu.siacs.conversations.axolotl
Uhm. 🤦
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edhelasGe0rG all the cool kids in town have their own client name in XMPP namespaces now
Ge0rGBut I want to be a cool kid too! Can I invent my own encryption protocol and have my name in the namespace? Like `pro.lukas.georg.doublerot13`?
jonaswhah
danielprobably; if you start the marketing campaign and get people to implement it
Ge0rGI can start by adding this to all my messages: `<encryption xmlns='urn:xmpp:eme:0' namespace='pro.lukas.georg.doublerot13'/>
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jonaswfiles bugreport
jonasw"rot13 undefined for emoji"
ZashLet me tell you about my latest invention: ROT1114111
Ge0rGjonasw: double rot13 WFM
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jonasw"but I don’t want to break abstraction by special-casing double-rot13!!!"
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flowlayers!
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Marandaguesses he'll call someone Tr0eT from now on.
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daniel,oO(not sure thus is how double rot13 works)
Maranda, oO(who said it's "double")
Maranda🤣 🤣
edhelasregarding the multiplication of E2E standards in XMPP I'm proposing a new XEP to cover everyone's use case, XEP-xxxx: PLAIN over E2E
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MarandaA Rot26 Ge0rG is rather boring and less Tr0eT'ling
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Ge0rGedhelas: that's kind of compatible to double rot13
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pep.Need another XEP to bridge the two
dwdIn entirely unrelated news, I'm attending the MLS BOF next week.
TobiasEnjoy
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ZashThat time of the 1/3year again?
jonaswwhich time?
ZashIETF time
Zash3 per year
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dwdAlso, reading back, double-XOR is 8-bit clean, and has the useful property that it always results in valid UTF-8, if you're looking for a decent encryption algorithm. Just ensure the key is from a suitable random source.
dwdZash: Yes, from this weekend.
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ZashHeh, IETF 101 :D
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dwdZash: If you miss it, the later sessions won't make any sense.
ZashAnyone feel like drafting an XMPP variant of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-email-tls-03 ?
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ZashActually why is that one not SRV-generic?
pep.Zash: that means SRV-ID? :u
pep.Heh
dwdI'd not seen that. And yes, but I don't know if we can persuade Let's Encrypt to support it - but I can put tendrils out next week.
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Zashpep.: Highly unlikely, not even email uses that.
ZashdNSNames everywhere and only
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Ge0rG> double-XOR is 8-bit clean, and has the useful property that it always results in valid UTF-8
Doesn't that depend on what you XOR with?
intosiGe0rG: no. If you xor it with 7-bit values, it will still be 8-bit clean :)
ZashIf you XOR with the same key twice...
intosiYup.
intosiReally doesn't matter which bitsize your values are.
Ge0rGI could XOR it with 0x00.
ZashNot sure if *wosh*
jonaswGe0rG, everybody knows xor with 0x00 is unsafe!
Ge0rGintosi: "Doesn't that depend on what you XOR with?" -- "no. If you xor it with 7-bit values," -- so that actually means "yes"?
intosiNo.
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intosiOr, "yes, it doesn't depend on"
intosiFor varying interpretations of the words "no" and "yes."
Ge0rGYes. We should stop that now before heads start exploding.
Zashyes xor no
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intositrue
Ge0rGZash: that's boring. The true fun starts at `yes XOR File_Not_Found_Exception`
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jonaswXAND!
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dwdjonasw: XAND - Like an AND, but if both inputs are true then false?
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dwdZash: Read through that email acme draft. I'll chat with Alexey about it on Saturday, and see if I can persuade him into knocking out an XMPP version.
Zashdwd: Thanks.
dwdFWIW, I think it ought to be doing sRVName in this instance.
rionis here any dino.im user? I'm trying to figure out if it worth it to add dino client detection in Psi.
Zashdwd: I saw mention of SRV-ID in the text
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Zashdwd: I do wonder if it would be sensible to factor out some generic SRV verification
dwdOh, indeed.
dwdAnd yes, generic sounds awfully good to me, but I suspectit's impossible without immediate/direct TLS in all cases.
Zash"How internet-drafts multiply"
dwdBTW, anyone know what the state of the art client for Mac is?
TobiasMonal, Swift 4.0rc6, …? :)
TobiasMovim maybe, if it has a Mac version. edhelas, does it?
ZashIsn't it a web client?
Tobiasi thought it had destkop wrappers :)
TobiasZash, it has a linux version https://movim.eu/#apps
edhelasyeah but removed some of them recently, wasn't able to package Electron easily for Windows and Mac
Tobiaswasn't able to package Electron? I thought that was it's one purose, be able to package easily on desktop platforms
Tobiaswasn't able to package Electron? I thought that was its one purose, be able to package easily on desktop platforms
edhelasahah, you fool, you need a sh**load of dependencies and actually run scripts on MacOS (and I don't have a Mac) to package .dmg and stuff like that
Kevhttps://www.dropbox.com/s/ltp23stece5gd66/Screenshot%202018-03-14%2010.25.14.png?dl=0
That's got the chat window in. Roster is unchanged since 3.0 (on http://swift.im/ ) I think.
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goffinice idea the avatar on the left
danielKev: thanks. can I assume the security label stuff is hidden if the server doesn't support it? Because that's pretty confusing for anyone not working for a three letter agency
Tobiasyes...it is
Tobiasit doesn't show for me at least when logged into my servers account
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Seve/SouLI love how you can make a grid in Swift
Ge0rGSwift the IM client?
Seve/SouLYup
Ge0rGwhat's a grid, then?
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Seve/SouLGe0rG, you can make a grid with your open tabs/windows. I cannot share a screenshot right now, I hope Kev or Tobias can help.
Ge0rGAh, interesting. Is that something you need for a huge Cyber Threat Display?
jonaswGe0rG, go back to work ;-)
Steve KilleGe0rG: military users like to have lots of tabs, so they can monitor many chats at once, with keyword highlighting to draw attention to things they care about. I have been told of an operator with 64 rooms displayed
Seve/SouLIt's a feature I never thought I would see in an XMPP client (it feels super niche) but I love it
Seve/SouLYou need a big screen for that :D
jonaswi want a screenshot
Steve KilleI find it helpful. I run with a mere 2x2 grid, but it helps me wathc and participate in a few things at once
Seve/SouLYes, as I said, I'm all for that feature :)
Steve Killejust installing dropbx to share a screenshot
jonaswwhy would you need dropbox for that? :-O
MattJSo Swift doesn't do HTTP upload yet? :)
jonaswI nede a script which gives me an upload slot so that I can share it to folks
MattJHa
jonaswand a hack into mod_http_upload_external which allows admins to create arbitrary-size slots :)
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Ge0rGjonasw: you share HTTP upload slots?
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Steve KilleOK - so what is an easy way to share a file. Dropbox is not impressing me
jonaswGe0rG, not yet :)
jonaswSteve Kille, imgur.com?
jonaswGe0rG, but I find it an appealing idea in this case here
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Tobiasyup, imgur.com is pretty straightforward
Steve Killehttps://www.dropbox.com/s/lb8f3elyxj1ym86/grid.bmp?dl=0
Steve Killeignore that
goffihum, we can split screen in our desktop/android frontend, doesn't sound like same feature, but it's trivial to do 2x2 grid (64 is more tricky :-/)
intosigoffi: buy more, bigger screens.
goffiintosi: it's not the size, it that you split by hand (it's inspired from blender)
intosiAh.
Tobiasgoffi, windows desktop don't usually support that
Steve Killehttps://www.dropbox.com/s/o0j7krbgtar7y6u/Screenshot%202018-03-14%2012.43.02.png?dl=0
Steve Killethat one works
goffiTobias: it's built in our client, not a desktop feature
Tobiasah..ok
jonaswneat, Steve Kille
Seve/SouLAnd it's super easy to set them up too
Steve KilleYes - Tobias did a great job with the UI
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Link MauveDave Cridland, what was your RFC for making <session><optional/></session> again?
flowAlso could you please introduce a stream error specific error conditions so that the stream error receiving entity can disable stream management in subsequent connections, avoiding reconnection loops
flow(I'd assume that openfire would probably benefit from it ;))
flow*condition
flowwait, it's "stream management specific stream error condition"