XSF Discussion - 2018-03-14

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00:14:57 pep. https://gultsch.de/ daniel s/in moving/is moving/
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06:27:56 edhelas MattJ yup. But I'd also like to generalize to pretty much everything we have in XMPP
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06:33:19 goffi daniel: just seen that conversations enable OMEMO by default, what happens if the other client doesn't implement it?
06:35:13 jonasw for those of us who implement/implemented voice calls: http://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/handle/1969.1/ETD-TAMU-2011-05-9116
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06:42:55 fippo jonasw: how does that compare to opus with CBR? (something the wire folks contributed back to the webrtc.org lib)?
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06:43:49 jonasw fippo, I have no idea
06:44:04 jonasw someone who may work on jingle voice in jabbercat has researched that stuff
06:44:15 jonasw kudos to them for even thinking about timing sidechannels
06:45:39 jonasw (and with research I mean "looked for papers", not "written that paper")
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07:08:11 daniel > https://gultsch.de/ daniel s/in moving/is moving/ pep.: thanks
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07:24:11 goffi daniel: ^
07:24:41 daniel ?
07:25:07 goffi [07:33][goffi] daniel: just seen that conversations enable OMEMO by default, what happens if the other client doesn't implement it?
07:25:28 daniel it wont be able to decrypt the message
07:25:51 goffi daniel: conversations won't send it unencrypted then?
07:26:12 daniel not by default
07:26:26 daniel you can of course switch to unencrypted manually
07:27:06 goffi daniel: you have a warning or something obvious so people know how to do it?
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07:27:38 daniel nope
07:28:01 daniel (unless you don't publish any keys at all)
07:28:08 goffi looks like you're breaking compatibility
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07:28:53 Zash And keys are published by ... default ?
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07:30:14 flow goffi, i'd say it impedes communication with certain clients, not really a compatiblity issue
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07:31:07 flow I wonder if the situation could be improved a bit if the receiving client informs the sending that he doesn't the support the encryption mechanism, possibly based on EME
07:31:24 flow Is there a way to send outgoing messages from the bare JID to conceal the resource?
07:31:50 daniel flow, well detection is not really the issue. downgrade attacks are
07:32:14 flow daniel, how do you detect it (reliable)?
07:32:38 goffi flow: OMEMO is experimental, not an official standard yet. It's forcing it's use except if user change default which is not obvious to apparently. So yes it's breaking compatibility. Popular clients like Movim are not implementing it. It sounds like a terrible idea to me.
07:32:39 daniel or let me repharse; we have mechanism that would allow us to detect under certain conditions; however that doesn't seem like a problem worth solving because downgrades
07:35:06 flow daniel, I can see how that way is appealing from a pragmatic pratical point of view, i'm mostly interested thinking about potential solutions how a modular/extensible federated network could deal with multiple encryption schemes with minimal interoperability issues
07:35:57 daniel flow: well because of the +notify thing in the Disco features we do know if a client supports omemo
07:36:05 daniel If we can access disco
07:36:19 daniel Speaking from a purely technical perspective
07:36:42 daniel Assuming the other one is online and has presence subscription
07:38:47 MattJ I was going to say that still allows a server MITM to strip that feature from disco
07:38:57 MattJ But then a server may also unpublish keys
07:39:27 flow MattJ, not if you always unconditional send omemo
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07:39:47 flow not sure what conversation's omemo-by-default does
07:39:49 MattJ if you've communicated before?
07:39:50 daniel MattJ, of course. that's why i'm not doing this
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07:44:57 flow daniel: is there a knob to turn off omemo-by-default?
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07:45:53 daniel not yet. i'm still on the fence whether this is a good idea
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07:47:35 flow daniel, so just to make sure I understand: If there is no such knob, I won't be able to communicate with someone using conversations if I use a client which does not support omemo?
07:47:58 jonasw (and you have ever published keys)
07:48:05 jonasw (which conversations does by default)
07:48:12 daniel oh sorry. currently you can turn it off on a per conversation basis
07:48:20 daniel the encryption/lock icon doesn't go away
07:48:35 daniel just omemo is selected as default instead of none
07:48:54 flow daniel, if the remote has published omemo keys, or always?
07:48:57 daniel there isn't a app wide button to change the default for all conversations
07:49:02 daniel flow, always
07:49:07 jonasw what
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07:49:15 jonasw so how do you send encrypted messages if the remote hasn’t published keys?
07:49:42 flow ahh ok, so a common flow would be that converstations send an omemo message, recipient replies "sorry, no can do", conversation user turns off omemo for that conversation
07:49:47 daniel it will pop up the error dialog that it can't find keys
07:49:48 flow that flow will always be possible?
07:49:56 jonasw m(
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07:50:20 daniel > ahh ok, so a common flow would be that converstations send an omemo message, recipient replies "sorry, no can do", conversation user turns off omemo for that conversation that's how i imagine it. yes
07:51:01 jonasw I’m really looking forward explaining to family how to that
07:51:02 flow I think I could life with that
07:51:13 jonasw that class of family for whom conversations is "ohhhh, you mean that thing on my phone"
07:51:17 goffi daniel: does use need to do that on each new discussion with the same user ?
07:51:21 goffi user*
07:51:39 flow but on the other hand, that also allows for downgrade attacks
07:51:47 goffi daniel: does user needs to do that on each new discussion with the same recipient ?
07:51:49 daniel like i said; it's only about changing the defaults
07:51:53 daniel not about forcing omemo
07:51:55 jonasw alternatively, I’ll make our MUCs non-members-only
07:51:58 jonasw that should do the trick too
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07:52:24 daniel goffi, no conversations are persistent across the life span of the app
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07:52:41 daniel there is no such thing as a 'new discussion'
07:52:41 jonasw my understanding was that omemo would only be enabled when conversations was able to discover keys for all participants, which I could agree to. but this is really, really bad.
07:52:42 goffi OK, that's better than I imagined
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07:53:46 goffi but I'm still worried that it's not obvious to change as you said previously. And what if recipient use OX instead? I personnaly prefer OX over OMEMO
07:53:57 daniel lol
07:54:04 goffi lol?
07:54:09 daniel we can think about that when people have implemented ox
07:55:47 flow true
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08:00:08 daniel I feel like I'm repeating myself. But the change is just about the default. So if previously a lot of people had to tell their contacts to _enable_ omemo for a specific conversation some other people now have to tell their contacts to disable omemo
08:00:53 daniel And my argument is that outside the xmpp developer bubble a lot less people now have to ask their friends to change that
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08:01:59 jonasw daniel, I don’t see why you would default to enabling omemo if the contact not even has keys published
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08:04:37 goffi The recipient may not even know that there is a message
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08:05:06 goffi then "you have to disable OMEMO" "How?" "I have not idea"
08:05:21 goffi no*
08:05:47 daniel wait. you don't implement eme? :-)
08:06:46 goffi clients not implementing OMEMO may definitely not implement eme indeed (which is not more standard than OMEMO by the way).
08:07:24 daniel Conversations will add a clear text body if it detects the other party has at least one client online that doesn't support omemo
08:07:31 daniel i was kidding about the eme
08:07:38 daniel i'm not a fan of eme
08:07:58 daniel for exactly that reason
08:08:04 daniel bad clients don't implement it
08:08:16 daniel good clients probably have the encryption anyway
08:08:34 goffi daniel: it's not a question of bad or good, it's a question of priorities, which may differs from yours.
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08:09:01 goffi I have not implemented eme and I'm planning to, but Pubsub and blog stuff are more important to me.
08:09:25 goffi and we are not all full time devs. Thanks to avoid insulting client developers.
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08:10:49 edhelas daniel there's no bad or good clients, Pidgin supports OMEMO, it's a good XMPP client for you ?
08:11:10 MattJ daniel, what is the error dialog like when there are no keys? Does give an option to disable OMEMO for that contact?
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08:12:00 daniel MattJ, not yet. but there will be one if you previously haven't successfully send an omemo message
08:12:08 MattJ That would be great
08:12:18 Ge0rG OMEMO used to be a little UX nightmare. Now it has become the doom of Conversations :>
08:13:07 MattJ I'm in favour of increasing security. End-to-end encryption with trivial downgrade attacks from the entity it's protecting against is... well, pointless
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08:13:19 edhelas can't wait for Conversations to support SIMS, to make it a good client again :3
08:13:38 MattJ But I'm not in favour of making our lives even harder in increasing adoption of XMPP though
08:13:56 daniel sims was planed for 2.0 - but it is actually a lot harder than I thought
08:14:00 goffi I'm not against E2E encryption by default either, but I'm worrying about compatibility issues. And OMEMO is not a standard yet.
08:14:02 daniel so it has to wait for 2.1 or 2.2
08:14:14 Ge0rG I can not implement E2EE for *ehm* Regulatory Compliance Reasons.
08:14:31 Ge0rG daniel: which OMEMO namespace is Conversations using currently?
08:14:42 daniel Ge0rG, the one in the XEP :-) :-)
08:14:43 edhelas daniel oh, good news :)
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08:15:28 Ge0rG > This specification defines the following XMPP namespaces: > - eu.siacs.conversations.axolotl Uhm. 🤦
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08:17:27 edhelas Ge0rG all the cool kids in town have their own client name in XMPP namespaces now
08:18:31 Ge0rG But I want to be a cool kid too! Can I invent my own encryption protocol and have my name in the namespace? Like `pro.lukas.georg.doublerot13`?
08:18:39 jonasw hah
08:19:03 daniel probably; if you start the marketing campaign and get people to implement it
08:19:30 Ge0rG I can start by adding this to all my messages: `<encryption xmlns='urn:xmpp:eme:0' namespace='pro.lukas.georg.doublerot13'/>
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08:22:23 jonasw files bugreport
08:22:32 jonasw "rot13 undefined for emoji"
08:24:04 Zash Let me tell you about my latest invention: ROT1114111
08:24:07 Ge0rG jonasw: double rot13 WFM
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08:24:55 jonasw "but I don’t want to break abstraction by special-casing double-rot13!!!"
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08:29:25 flow layers!
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08:38:40 Maranda guesses he'll call someone Tr0eT from now on.
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08:39:35 daniel ,oO(not sure thus is how double rot13 works)
08:40:26 Maranda , oO(who said it's "double")
08:40:31 Maranda 🤣 🤣
08:40:37 edhelas regarding the multiplication of E2E standards in XMPP I'm proposing a new XEP to cover everyone's use case, XEP-xxxx: PLAIN over E2E
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08:44:52 Maranda A Rot26 Ge0rG is rather boring and less Tr0eT'ling
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08:51:55 Ge0rG edhelas: that's kind of compatible to double rot13
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09:03:09 pep. Need another XEP to bridge the two
09:04:00 dwd In entirely unrelated news, I'm attending the MLS BOF next week.
09:06:01 Tobias Enjoy
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09:21:09 Zash That time of the 1/3year again?
09:21:38 jonasw which time?
09:21:42 Zash IETF time
09:22:03 Zash 3 per year
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09:24:22 dwd Also, reading back, double-XOR is 8-bit clean, and has the useful property that it always results in valid UTF-8, if you're looking for a decent encryption algorithm. Just ensure the key is from a suitable random source.
09:24:50 dwd Zash: Yes, from this weekend.
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09:25:25 Zash Heh, IETF 101 :D
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09:25:39 dwd Zash: If you miss it, the later sessions won't make any sense.
09:26:26 Zash Anyone feel like drafting an XMPP variant of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-acme-email-tls-03 ?
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09:28:41 Zash Actually why is that one not SRV-generic?
09:28:45 pep. Zash: that means SRV-ID? :u
09:28:52 pep. Heh
09:29:04 dwd I'd not seen that. And yes, but I don't know if we can persuade Let's Encrypt to support it - but I can put tendrils out next week.
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09:31:53 Zash pep.: Highly unlikely, not even email uses that.
09:32:09 Zash dNSNames everywhere and only
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09:41:05 Ge0rG > double-XOR is 8-bit clean, and has the useful property that it always results in valid UTF-8 Doesn't that depend on what you XOR with?
09:41:29 intosi Ge0rG: no. If you xor it with 7-bit values, it will still be 8-bit clean :)
09:41:45 Zash If you XOR with the same key twice...
09:41:49 intosi Yup.
09:42:10 intosi Really doesn't matter which bitsize your values are.
09:42:14 Ge0rG I could XOR it with 0x00.
09:42:30 Zash Not sure if *wosh*
09:42:31 jonasw Ge0rG, everybody knows xor with 0x00 is unsafe!
09:42:48 Ge0rG intosi: "Doesn't that depend on what you XOR with?" -- "no. If you xor it with 7-bit values," -- so that actually means "yes"?
09:43:07 intosi No.
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09:43:24 intosi Or, "yes, it doesn't depend on"
09:43:41 intosi For varying interpretations of the words "no" and "yes."
09:44:17 Ge0rG Yes. We should stop that now before heads start exploding.
09:44:29 Zash yes xor no
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09:44:45 intosi true
09:44:54 Ge0rG Zash: that's boring. The true fun starts at `yes XOR File_Not_Found_Exception`
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09:48:04 jonasw XAND!
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10:01:31 dwd jonasw: XAND - Like an AND, but if both inputs are true then false?
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10:02:08 dwd Zash: Read through that email acme draft. I'll chat with Alexey about it on Saturday, and see if I can persuade him into knocking out an XMPP version.
10:02:47 Zash dwd: Thanks.
10:02:54 dwd FWIW, I think it ought to be doing sRVName in this instance.
10:02:57 rion is here any dino.im user? I'm trying to figure out if it worth it to add dino client detection in Psi.
10:03:12 Zash dwd: I saw mention of SRV-ID in the text
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10:04:13 Zash dwd: I do wonder if it would be sensible to factor out some generic SRV verification
10:04:18 dwd Oh, indeed.
10:04:54 dwd And yes, generic sounds awfully good to me, but I suspectit's impossible without immediate/direct TLS in all cases.
10:05:23 Zash "How internet-drafts multiply"
10:07:54 dwd BTW, anyone know what the state of the art client for Mac is?
10:10:41 Tobias Monal, Swift 4.0rc6, …? :)
10:11:56 Tobias Movim maybe, if it has a Mac version. edhelas, does it?
10:12:12 Zash Isn't it a web client?
10:12:32 Tobias i thought it had destkop wrappers :)
10:14:20 Tobias Zash, it has a linux version https://movim.eu/#apps
10:14:39 edhelas yeah but removed some of them recently, wasn't able to package Electron easily for Windows and Mac
10:15:34 Tobias ~~wasn't able to package Electron? I thought that was it's one purose, be able to package easily on desktop platforms~~ ✎
10:15:42 Tobias wasn't able to package Electron? I thought that was its one purose, be able to package easily on desktop platforms ✏
10:16:28 edhelas ahah, you fool, you need a sh**load of dependencies and actually run scripts on MacOS (and I don't have a Mac) to package .dmg and stuff like that
10:16:47 Tobias ahh
10:16:50 edhelas I don't have time for that
10:16:59 Tobias I understand
10:17:11 edhelas https://www.npmjs.com/package/electron-packager
10:17:24 edhelas also I have a personnal issue with the JS ecosystem and NPM
10:17:31 edhelas but that's purely personnal
10:17:47 goffi edhelas: you're not the only one
10:17:50 Tobias understandable, who doesn't have an issue with the JS ecosystem
10:18:39 Kev Which JS ecosystem?
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10:18:52 intosi Kev: all of them, in varying degrees.
10:20:56 Zash There can be only one!
10:22:16 daniel Are there any Screenshots for swift 4.0?
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10:23:15 Tobias I can make one but it's probably not the usual setup for most users
10:24:05 Kev https://www.dropbox.com/s/bn6rpzjqhroebgk/Screenshot%202018-03-14%2010.23.40.png?dl=0
10:24:35 Kev Actually, let me sort out a different one.
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10:25:56 Kev https://www.dropbox.com/s/ltp23stece5gd66/Screenshot%202018-03-14%2010.25.14.png?dl=0 That's got the chat window in. Roster is unchanged since 3.0 (on http://swift.im/ ) I think.
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10:27:20 goffi nice idea the avatar on the left
10:29:26 daniel Kev: thanks. can I assume the security label stuff is hidden if the server doesn't support it? Because that's pretty confusing for anyone not working for a three letter agency
10:29:33 Tobias yes...it is
10:29:46 Tobias it doesn't show for me at least when logged into my servers account
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12:21:29 Seve/SouL I love how you can make a grid in Swift
12:21:51 Ge0rG Swift the IM client?
12:21:55 Seve/SouL Yup
12:22:19 Ge0rG what's a grid, then?
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12:24:20 Seve/SouL Ge0rG, you can make a grid with your open tabs/windows. I cannot share a screenshot right now, I hope Kev or Tobias can help.
12:25:00 Ge0rG Ah, interesting. Is that something you need for a huge Cyber Threat Display?
12:25:12 jonasw Ge0rG, go back to work ;-)
12:27:28 Steve Kille Ge0rG: military users like to have lots of tabs, so they can monitor many chats at once, with keyword highlighting to draw attention to things they care about. I have been told of an operator with 64 rooms displayed
12:27:32 Seve/SouL It's a feature I never thought I would see in an XMPP client (it feels super niche) but I love it
12:28:08 Seve/SouL You need a big screen for that :D
12:28:40 jonasw i want a screenshot
12:28:48 Steve Kille I find it helpful. I run with a mere 2x2 grid, but it helps me wathc and participate in a few things at once
12:31:32 Seve/SouL Yes, as I said, I'm all for that feature :)
12:32:41 Steve Kille just installing dropbx to share a screenshot
12:32:53 jonasw why would you need dropbox for that? :-O
12:32:56 MattJ So Swift doesn't do HTTP upload yet? :)
12:33:17 jonasw I nede a script which gives me an upload slot so that I can share it to folks
12:33:30 MattJ Ha
12:34:21 jonasw and a hack into mod_http_upload_external which allows admins to create arbitrary-size slots :)
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12:37:05 Ge0rG jonasw: you share HTTP upload slots?
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12:39:17 Steve Kille OK - so what is an easy way to share a file. Dropbox is not impressing me
12:39:29 jonasw Ge0rG, not yet :)
12:39:33 jonasw Steve Kille, imgur.com?
12:39:46 jonasw Ge0rG, but I find it an appealing idea in this case here
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12:40:46 Tobias yup, imgur.com is pretty straightforward
12:40:57 Steve Kille https://www.dropbox.com/s/lb8f3elyxj1ym86/grid.bmp?dl=0
12:41:34 Steve Kille ignore that
12:42:31 goffi hum, we can split screen in our desktop/android frontend, doesn't sound like same feature, but it's trivial to do 2x2 grid (64 is more tricky :-/)
12:42:56 intosi goffi: buy more, bigger screens.
12:43:18 goffi intosi: it's not the size, it that you split by hand (it's inspired from blender)
12:43:40 intosi Ah.
12:43:43 Tobias goffi, windows desktop don't usually support that
12:43:47 Steve Kille https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0j7krbgtar7y6u/Screenshot%202018-03-14%2012.43.02.png?dl=0
12:44:06 Steve Kille that one works
12:44:07 goffi Tobias: it's built in our client, not a desktop feature
12:44:14 Tobias ah..ok
12:44:55 jonasw neat, Steve Kille
12:45:42 Seve/SouL And it's super easy to set them up too
12:47:36 Steve Kille Yes - Tobias did a great job with the UI
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17:52:06 Link Mauve Dave Cridland, what was your RFC for making <session><optional/></session> again?
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17:53:13 Zash draft-cridland-something-something-session
17:53:23 Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cridland-xmpp-session-01
17:53:40 Link Mauve Thanks. :)
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17:55:56 Link Mauve It’s now implemented in slixmpp. :)
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20:02:53 jjrh Steve Kille, Grid is kinda nice actually
20:04:58 jjrh Would be a nice feature in gajim actually.
20:05:34 jjrh Haven't used swift but vertical tabs is much easier I find (I wish chrome supported this....)
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21:25:01 flow Guus, friendly reminder regarding https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/579#issuecomment-367929778
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21:26:13 flow Also could you please introduce a stream error specific error conditions so that the stream error receiving entity can disable stream management in subsequent connections, avoiding reconnection loops
21:26:43 flow (I'd assume that openfire would probably benefit from it ;))
21:27:44 flow *condition
21:29:38 flow wait, it's "stream management specific stream error condition"
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21:52:01 Guus flow, thanks, I will
21:52:08 Guus (and Openfire already does, I think)
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