XSF Discussion - 2018-03-16

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  218. jonasw edhelas, goffi, care to give feedback on the current XEP-0394 discussion? Even feedback of the type "We’ll need full XHTML anyways, so do whatever you folks want" would be valuable. specifically starting at https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-March/034588.html thanks
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  316. Guus goodday! I'm working on migrating bookmarks (0048) from private xml storage (0049) to pep (0223). I'm was surprised to find a difference between the pubsub node defined in 0048 example 3 (the published item root element is 'storage', that itself contains 'conference') and 0233's example 3 (the published item root element is 'conference' directly, without the wrapping 'storage'). I expected those two examples to have the same structure. What's going on there?
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  318. jonasw didn’t we firstw ant to discuss whether we want to make that multi-item to avoid the races?
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  325. Guus the last update to the xep was in 2008. That's a long discussion. :)
  326. Zash The update that changed it from private xml to pep?
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  328. Guus Yeah. Both xeps descrbe the PEP way of doing things, but use a different xml structure.
  329. Guus that's mildly confusing, at best. :)
  330. Zash Well, if you needed evidence that nobody has looked at this since :)
  331. Guus so... which one is it? :)
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  333. jonasw Guus, look at what converse.js does. it might be the only implementation around.
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  335. Guus LOL. JC is right here - as in, we're both in London, sharing an appartment, hacking on code :)
  336. Guus which is why this came up in the first place
  337. jonasw IETF?
  338. Guus no
  339. Guus I think he later also attends a JMAP session, unsure (he's still in bed, we were coding until 3am last night)
  340. Guus I'm leaving later today
  341. jonasw secret xsf meetup, eh?
  342. Guus littlebit :)
  343. Guus well, we did discuss doing this more often, and having mini hackathons or something
  344. jonasw make a secret XSF meetup in Dresden, I’ll join
  345. Guus we've been pretty productive, and it's good fun
  346. Guus well, he's in germany, I'm in the netherlands... I we can make something work. :)
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  351. vanitasvitae Dresden is even further away than Berlin 🙁
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  356. deleteme9 Oh. I considered going to that jmap session as well. But time...
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  358. Zash RIP email
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  363. MattJ JMAP is great
  364. MattJ if it's ever adopted
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  366. Zash But JSON and HTTP? Meeeeeh :(
  367. daniel Depends. It's still pretty close to imap. Which is both a good thing but also a bad thing
  368. MattJ I once tried to write an IMAP client in Javascript
  369. daniel I have an unfinished library for an earlier version of jmap somewhere on my disk
  370. MattJ JMAP is great
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  372. Zash MattJ: "in Javascript" :|
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  374. MattJ Zash, find me a nice UI framework as an alternative :/
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  378. Tobias JS the UI framework? :)
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  383. MattJ Tobias, no, just HTML/CSS/JS is a portable well-documented stack for writing apps, with a large ecosystem
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  385. Tobias yup
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  388. jonasw for certain definitions of well-documented
  389. MattJ It comes with the choice of multiple runtimes, pretty much all of them large complex and bloated, but everyone has them installed
  390. Tobias everyone has them installed but you ship a new environment anyway
  391. Tobias everyone has them installed but you ship a new environment anyway (Electron)
  392. Zash It's a linked document system that evolved into an application platform.
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  405. Guus Daniel, MattJ, do you guys use PEP for private data storage?
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  407. MattJ Prosody doesn't currently support private PEP nodes
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  409. MattJ Roadmap is: Make our PEP implementation use the same code as our "full" pubsub implementation (done, pretty much) -> add publish-options support (in progress, almost done hopefully) -> add access model support (should be trivial)
  410. Zash Permissions and such are configurable, but only internally.
  411. deleteme9 Guus: not yet
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  413. Guus deleteme9: you are aware that you are here as 'deleteme9'?
  414. deleteme9 I'd switch bookmarks over in a heart beat. But I don't want to support both
  415. deleteme9 Yes
  416. deleteme9 I'm on a dev phone with a different account
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  418. Guus I'm finalizing a change in Openfire that would allow you to query the same data over both
  419. deleteme9 And that phone was closer
  420. Guus However, there appears to be a descrepancy in 48/223
  421. deleteme9 Guus: yes. That's what I'm afraid of. If you then push to both as a client that will get ugly
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  423. deleteme9 Not the descrepancy but what you Said earlier
  424. MattJ A disco feature was proposed
  425. deleteme9 Can't type fast enough on my new phone
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  432. Guus We're not keeping two distinct sets of data - we're using one set, that you can modify both through private xml storage as well as through the PEP thingy
  433. Guus the private xml storage does not broadcast, as far as I know, so it'd be up to the client to pick and choose one way to exchange this data?
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  451. edhelas Guus thanks <3
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  453. edhelas Movim is already using Bookmarks on PEP for years
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  456. Guus edhelas: can you review what I just send to standards@ then?
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  492. jonasw who’s deleteme9?
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  495. Guus daniel
  496. jonasw ah
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  502. edhelas Guus done :)
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  506. Guus tx
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  513. daniel i think that difference between 48 and 223 makes sense if you assume that you want to put each bookmark in its own item
  514. daniel which would be kinda nice
  515. daniel but when in doubt 48 is right because 223 is just an example
  516. Guus agreed.
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  527. Zash Oh and the <publish-option> issue where only pubsub#access_model is actually defined, has that been resolved?
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  531. Guus Zash: I'm unsure what you're referring to
  532. Guus are you talking about the security issue where the publish-option can easily be ignored, which can lead to publication of items under false settings (such as by accident publicly publishing data that's ment to be private)?
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  536. Zash Guus: No, the fields in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html#example-3
  537. Zash Well. pubsub#persist_items
  538. Zash What does that mean?
  539. daniel I think that has been resolved hasn't it?
  540. Zash Oh, '60 has been fixed so the're all preconditions?
  541. Zash Well then
  542. daniel Yes after some discussion in which unfortunately not many people participated it has been decided that this is the best move
  543. Zash Text in '60 makes sense
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  554. Guus yeah, those options confused us too. What we ended up with is that they are preconditions that must be met for existing nodes, and configuration overrides for nodes that do not exist (assuming auto-create is allowed).
  555. Zash This conflicts with cloud push, dontit?
  556. daniel Zash: not if the app server doesn't announce publish options as a feature
  557. daniel But yes that should probably be changed somehow
  558. daniel Maybe by push not using pubsub syntax at all
  559. daniel But at least on paper we don't have a problem here
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  592. lovetox what clients do use user mood and user activity
  593. lovetox ?
  594. Zash Pidgin
  595. lovetox i just thought about the xep and it feels a bit useless
  596. lovetox user can set status message with presence
  597. lovetox he can put emojis and any text he like in there
  598. lovetox why would he set beside that a mood
  599. intosi Because not everyone is interested in that info. Presence flooding is a real thing.
  600. Zash Was emoji even a thing back then?
  601. lovetox i didnt mean it was useless back then
  602. lovetox i wonder about today
  603. lovetox idont see this as presence flooding
  604. Zash If combined with access controls, you could in theory only show your closest friends your mood. Or somesuch.
  605. lovetox you will not change more often your mood than your status
  606. lovetox i re-evaluate these xeps in gajim currently so i wonder if its worth to keep them
  607. lovetox would it not make more sense to have a user status xep
  608. lovetox just a node where a user can publish multiple things that could be extended
  609. lovetox like a link to a picture
  610. lovetox or video
  611. Zash Hm, wasn't the need for a status-in-pep xep agreed upon already?
  612. jonasw yeah, that was part of summit
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  615. jonasw lovetox, go write it down, it’ll get accepted
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  620. lovetox yeah maybe i invest my energy into that instead of refactoring code for mood and activity
  621. lovetox because almost no one supports that anyway
  622. Zash Poezio and pidgin does
  623. Zash Or, activity at least
  624. Zash Yeah, mood too
  625. lovetox so what does a status xep need
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  627. lovetox text obviously
  628. lovetox a way to add a URI to some file or video
  629. Zash <show> and <status> from presence probably?
  630. lovetox really show?
  631. Zash URI?
  632. lovetox why we have that in presence
  633. lovetox why would i need it in status again
  634. Zash I got the impression that consensus was that the things in <presence> ought to be in a per-account PEP thing instead.
  635. Zash And the relevant things are basically just show and status
  636. lovetox you talk like you can get rid of presence
  637. lovetox presence will be there, so the show information is already known to the client
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  639. lovetox hm or is it possible to leave show out of presnece?
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  641. Zash I said nothing about removing from presence.
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  643. Zash It'd probably be a mess of both anyways
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  645. lovetox also different resources can have differen show
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  649. lovetox show can never be in a pep node
  650. daniel There was talk at the summit (and I tend to agree with the idea) to remove Show and status from presence and put that into a pep node
  651. lovetox if i disconnect, the pep node will show online forever
  652. daniel Because if you are dnd with one client you probably want to be dnd with all
  653. lovetox but than you need server addon
  654. daniel And what ever clever status you came up with you probably want that to be global as well
  655. Zash Well, sometimes I don't want you to disturb my phone, but you can talk to me at my desktop
  656. lovetox that changes the show inside the pepnode in some circumstances
  657. Guus has left
  658. daniel Zash: with carbons that will arrive at your phone though and disturb you there anyway, no?
  659. lovetox yeah what Zash said, im not sold on that, seems forced, and the only plus is that you can sync show over clients, but who really wants that
  660. Zash Yup
  661. Zash I was fairly happy with how it worked when I originally stared with Jabber after all
  662. lovetox if you set status DND on your client and he still notifys you the same as when you are online
  663. Zash I didn't want to move to everything everywhere all the time and everything persisted forever on some cloud somewhere
  664. lovetox i woudl say thats a client problem
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  667. Zash And a dnd status doesn't seem to stop people from messaging anyways
  668. lovetox why should it? if you dont want to get messages go offline
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  671. Zash lovetox: re your original question, why not rip out mood and stuff into a plugin (or tell those who wants the feature to write a plugin)
  672. lovetox because i need to add a api to show the icons than
  673. lovetox and maintain that until the end of time
  674. lovetox lets do a status xep
  675. lovetox but this show idea has way to many holes for me
  676. lovetox and also its just not really solving a problem
  677. lovetox i never heard someone complain that he wants his status synced over all clients
  678. MattJ lovetox, plugins being able to show icons next to the contacts, for a client like Gajim, seems like a nice idea :)
  679. lovetox was the current trend not to dont even allow and show status changes ^^
  680. Zash it seems to be coming back
  681. Zash you can be ahead of the curve!
  682. Zash trens are often cyclic after all
  683. Zash I mean gateways and transports are apparently all the rage again
  684. Maranda Are they?
  685. intosi dusts off Jabber RPC
  686. Zash Isn't that the sell with Matrix?
  687. Maranda 🤣 🤣
  688. Zash And the whole Slack bridge issue
  689. lovetox hm what does movim?
  690. lovetox do they put status into pubsub
  691. Maranda XMPP bridge/federation of MatriX?
  692. Zash And the thing where we've got a new generation of a bazillion different services and people are getting fed up with having a ton of chat apps at once
  693. Zash All the old is new again!
  694. Guus has left
  695. edhelas Also tons of social network accounts
  696. moparisthebest are there tons of social networks? I thought it was essentially just facebook
  697. moparisthebest same with chat really, except like 8 of 10 top chat apps are just facebook owned...
  698. Zash don't forget how google has a dosen or something
  699. Guus has left
  700. Maranda Huhu
  701. Zash also signal, wire, telegram, ... others
  702. Maranda All I use is Facebook and Instagram... Or should I count WhatsApp too?
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  704. edhelas IRC
  705. moparisthebest someone in some xmpp muc pasted a chart of the top 10 chat apps recently...
  706. moparisthebest not recently enough for me to find in history though
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  711. Maranda I tried to get someone to use Conversations apparently it's "nerd stuff", "rocket science" 🤔
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  721. moparisthebest I tend to think there is no hope for a user that just wants to use their phone number and no username/password
  722. moparisthebest because that's really the only hurdle to conversations over whatscrap
  723. lovetox i can tell you that order moparisthebest
  724. lovetox whatsapp, facebook, weechat, rest
  725. moparisthebest weechat the IRC relay? no way normal users use that
  726. j.r has joined
  727. moparisthebest I was shocked recently when a few newish ~25 year old programmers started at work and hadn't heard of IRC... :'(
  728. lovetox So was the talks about the status xep anywhere written down
  729. lovetox then i give it a try to write down a xep
  730. lovetox moparisthebest, wee chat is the biggest messenger in china
  731. lovetox i think a billion users easy
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  733. moparisthebest "WeeChat is a free and open-source Internet Relay Chat client" https://weechat.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeeChat
  734. moparisthebest ah so you meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat :)
  735. lovetox lol, ok there are 2 :d
  736. moparisthebest I'd only heard of the IRC one, wikipedia has at the top "Not to be confused with WeChat." but clearly they *are* to be confused haha
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  744. lovetox is there somewhere a list with all published xeps?
  745. moparisthebest lovetox, https://xmpp.org/extensions/ ?
  746. lovetox yes nice
  747. Neustradamus lovetox: Psi/+
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  749. moparisthebest lovetox, also https://github.com/xsf/xeps if you'd rather grep XML or whatever
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  751. Neustradamus Today, I have looked the https://xmpp.org/registrar/namespaces.html, not all are on it
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  794. Guus Neustradamus: please provide fixes.
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  806. lovetox can xep 372 be used for quoting older messages?
  807. Ge0rG has left
  808. lovetox or was the idea something different
  809. lovetox because im a bit confused why it says message MUST NOT contain a body
  810. lovetox quoting messages without adding a reply seems not so nice
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  816. lovetox ah no i see we have 0367 for that
  817. lovetox seems reference use case is something differnet
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  821. lovetox ok no thats also not it
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  824. lovetox i hoped there is something easy like adding a stanza id so the other client knows this is a reply to that message and can show it as a quote
  825. lovetox though a client that does not support that would miss the meaning..
  826. lovetox hm i guess i stick to > for quoting
  827. lovetox or use the new 0394
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  829. MattJ ITYM 393: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html#quote
  830. moparisthebest plus it's not like stanza id is globally unique, or that you can rely on any client actually having that copy?
  831. Zash the touple of (jid, stanza-id) should be tho
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  837. lovetox and why should i care if someone uses a client thats no able to generate a uuid?
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  839. lovetox people should not use these clients
  840. lovetox with stanza-id i meant message-id
  841. lovetox i was not talking about a mam added stanza-id
  842. moparisthebest still the second part is true isn't it?
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  844. lovetox yes, contact not having the referenced message is a problem
  845. lovetox using 0394 is also a problem
  846. lovetox if the other client doesnt support it, every trace of quote is gone
  847. moparisthebest I'd say just use 393 just like everything has always done even before 393 or even xmpp
  848. lovetox this might be one of the exceptions where you want to mix markup and 0394
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  850. moparisthebest good enough for email/irc, good enough now :)
  851. lovetox how is this good enough if you receive a message like this
  852. lovetox > do it like that
  853. lovetox who wrote this message?
  854. lovetox who am i quoting?
  855. moparisthebest looks like you quoted a message to me
  856. lovetox what time was this message written?
  857. lovetox all these things could be added in 0394
  858. moparisthebest > [TIMESTAMPHERE] lovetox: bla bla bla
  859. moparisthebest good enough
  860. moparisthebest doesn't 394 have a way to discover if a contact has support? if not it's useless
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  862. lovetox yes but this does not help you if there are multiple devices, and your contact is offline
  863. moparisthebest then you can't use it
  864. lovetox discovery for such things was always a bit meh
  865. lovetox most people just ignore it
  866. Guus has left
  867. lovetox like with message receipts
  868. lovetox i dont care if a contact supports that or not
  869. lovetox just send it
  870. lovetox and the same with xhtml etc, maybe contact comes later online with a client that knows xhtml and loads message from MAM
  871. moparisthebest well you can always send both like some clients (pidgin?) does with xhtml and open up all sorts of security problems with PGP/OMEMO/OTR
  872. lovetox yes encryption is a trap
  873. lovetox but after falling in this trap i have now a sanitizer that has a tag whitelist
  874. moparisthebest or you can ignore 394 and just send messages every client will understand regardless of if they have explicit 393 support or not...
  875. lovetox so this can never happen again
  876. lovetox gajim supports > quoting
  877. lovetox but i think about ways to draw it more beautiful, and a reference to the original message seems helpful with that
  878. lovetox so doing > blabla
  879. lovetox and adding more stuff via 0294
  880. lovetox 0394
  881. lovetox and when displaying with 0394 support, delete the > out of the message
  882. lovetox this seems one of these exceptions where you want to have markup inside body
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  966. Guus How is the German meetup going? #PicsOrItDidntHappen
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  983. Holger Guus: Very well, 11 people, a few of them first-time visitors.
  984. Holger > #PicsOrItDidntHappen My upload is currently broken, sorry 😉
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  988. MattJ Holger, nonsense, it's HTTP, it just works!
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  992. Guus Holger: what he said!
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  995. Ge0rG Holger: you need a better client then.
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  1192. lovetox so i written down a xep draft
  1193. lovetox inside a xml file
  1194. lovetox how can i get this to be rendered?
  1195. lovetox if i open it with chrome it shows nothing
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  1215. Neustradamus lovetox: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0134.html + https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html
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  1217. lovetox thx Neustradamus
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  1224. lovetox hm nice ok worked :)
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  1261. lovetox so here http://www.funkroom.net/xep/xep-status.html i copied most of the stuff from other xeps hope this is no problem does someone care to tell me what was talked about and what should go into this
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  1311. edhelas soon Presence over PEP ?
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  1328. lovetox the question is why do i have to parse from 2 xeps and one core mechanic stuff to get the full status of a contact
  1329. lovetox presence, mood, activity
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  1331. lovetox i just want to provide a textfield where the user can put in whatever he likes (emojis, text) and publish this to all my contacts
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  1333. lovetox not send a presence, publish my mood, then publish my activity
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  1339. lovetox and with the added bonus of pep syncing this also to my other clients, this just makes sense :)
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