-
jonasw
edhelas, goffi, care to give feedback on the current XEP-0394 discussion? Even feedback of the type "We’ll need full XHTML anyways, so do whatever you folks want" would be valuable. specifically starting at https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-March/034588.html thanks
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Guus
goodday! I'm working on migrating bookmarks (0048) from private xml storage (0049) to pep (0223). I'm was surprised to find a difference between the pubsub node defined in 0048 example 3 (the published item root element is 'storage', that itself contains 'conference') and 0233's example 3 (the published item root element is 'conference' directly, without the wrapping 'storage'). I expected those two examples to have the same structure. What's going on there?
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jonasw
didn’t we firstw ant to discuss whether we want to make that multi-item to avoid the races?
-
Guus
the last update to the xep was in 2008. That's a long discussion. :)
-
Zash
The update that changed it from private xml to pep?
-
Guus
Yeah. Both xeps descrbe the PEP way of doing things, but use a different xml structure.
-
Guus
that's mildly confusing, at best. :)
-
Zash
Well, if you needed evidence that nobody has looked at this since :)
-
Guus
so... which one is it? :)
-
jonasw
Guus, look at what converse.js does. it might be the only implementation around.
-
Guus
LOL. JC is right here - as in, we're both in London, sharing an appartment, hacking on code :)
-
Guus
which is why this came up in the first place
-
jonasw
IETF?
-
Guus
no
-
Guus
I think he later also attends a JMAP session, unsure (he's still in bed, we were coding until 3am last night)
-
Guus
I'm leaving later today
-
jonasw
secret xsf meetup, eh?
-
Guus
littlebit :)
-
Guus
well, we did discuss doing this more often, and having mini hackathons or something
-
jonasw
make a secret XSF meetup in Dresden, I’ll join
-
Guus
we've been pretty productive, and it's good fun
-
Guus
well, he's in germany, I'm in the netherlands... I we can make something work. :)
-
vanitasvitae
Dresden is even further away than Berlin 🙁
-
deleteme9
Oh. I considered going to that jmap session as well. But time...
-
Zash
RIP email
-
MattJ
JMAP is great
-
MattJ
if it's ever adopted
-
Zash
But JSON and HTTP? Meeeeeh :(
-
daniel
Depends. It's still pretty close to imap. Which is both a good thing but also a bad thing
-
MattJ
I once tried to write an IMAP client in Javascript
-
daniel
I have an unfinished library for an earlier version of jmap somewhere on my disk
-
MattJ
JMAP is great
-
Zash
MattJ: "in Javascript" :|
-
MattJ
Zash, find me a nice UI framework as an alternative :/
-
Tobias
JS the UI framework? :)
-
MattJ
Tobias, no, just HTML/CSS/JS is a portable well-documented stack for writing apps, with a large ecosystem
-
Tobias
yup
-
jonasw
for certain definitions of well-documented
-
MattJ
It comes with the choice of multiple runtimes, pretty much all of them large complex and bloated, but everyone has them installed
-
Tobias
everyone has them installed but you ship a new environment anyway✎ -
Tobias
everyone has them installed but you ship a new environment anyway (Electron) ✏
-
Zash
It's a linked document system that evolved into an application platform.
-
Guus
Daniel, MattJ, do you guys use PEP for private data storage?
-
MattJ
Prosody doesn't currently support private PEP nodes
-
MattJ
Roadmap is: Make our PEP implementation use the same code as our "full" pubsub implementation (done, pretty much) -> add publish-options support (in progress, almost done hopefully) -> add access model support (should be trivial)
-
Zash
Permissions and such are configurable, but only internally.
-
deleteme9
Guus: not yet
-
Guus
deleteme9: you are aware that you are here as 'deleteme9'?
-
deleteme9
I'd switch bookmarks over in a heart beat. But I don't want to support both
-
deleteme9
Yes
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deleteme9
I'm on a dev phone with a different account
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Guus
I'm finalizing a change in Openfire that would allow you to query the same data over both
-
deleteme9
And that phone was closer
-
Guus
However, there appears to be a descrepancy in 48/223
-
deleteme9
Guus: yes. That's what I'm afraid of. If you then push to both as a client that will get ugly
-
deleteme9
Not the descrepancy but what you Said earlier
-
MattJ
A disco feature was proposed
-
deleteme9
Can't type fast enough on my new phone
-
Guus
We're not keeping two distinct sets of data - we're using one set, that you can modify both through private xml storage as well as through the PEP thingy
-
Guus
the private xml storage does not broadcast, as far as I know, so it'd be up to the client to pick and choose one way to exchange this data?
-
edhelas
Guus thanks <3
-
edhelas
Movim is already using Bookmarks on PEP for years
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Guus
edhelas: can you review what I just send to standards@ then?
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jonasw
who’s deleteme9?
-
Guus
daniel
-
jonasw
ah
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edhelas
Guus done :)
-
Guus
tx
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daniel
i think that difference between 48 and 223 makes sense if you assume that you want to put each bookmark in its own item
-
daniel
which would be kinda nice
-
daniel
but when in doubt 48 is right because 223 is just an example
-
Guus
agreed.
-
Zash
Oh and the <publish-option> issue where only pubsub#access_model is actually defined, has that been resolved?
-
Guus
Zash: I'm unsure what you're referring to
-
Guus
are you talking about the security issue where the publish-option can easily be ignored, which can lead to publication of items under false settings (such as by accident publicly publishing data that's ment to be private)?
-
Zash
Guus: No, the fields in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html#example-3
-
Zash
Well. pubsub#persist_items
-
Zash
What does that mean?
-
daniel
I think that has been resolved hasn't it?
-
Zash
Oh, '60 has been fixed so the're all preconditions?
-
Zash
Well then
-
daniel
Yes after some discussion in which unfortunately not many people participated it has been decided that this is the best move
-
Zash
Text in '60 makes sense
-
Guus
yeah, those options confused us too. What we ended up with is that they are preconditions that must be met for existing nodes, and configuration overrides for nodes that do not exist (assuming auto-create is allowed).
-
Zash
This conflicts with cloud push, dontit?
-
daniel
Zash: not if the app server doesn't announce publish options as a feature
-
daniel
But yes that should probably be changed somehow
-
daniel
Maybe by push not using pubsub syntax at all
-
daniel
But at least on paper we don't have a problem here
-
lovetox
what clients do use user mood and user activity
-
lovetox
?
-
Zash
Pidgin
-
lovetox
i just thought about the xep and it feels a bit useless
-
lovetox
user can set status message with presence
-
lovetox
he can put emojis and any text he like in there
-
lovetox
why would he set beside that a mood
-
intosi
Because not everyone is interested in that info. Presence flooding is a real thing.
-
Zash
Was emoji even a thing back then?
-
lovetox
i didnt mean it was useless back then
-
lovetox
i wonder about today
-
lovetox
idont see this as presence flooding
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Zash
If combined with access controls, you could in theory only show your closest friends your mood. Or somesuch.
-
lovetox
you will not change more often your mood than your status
-
lovetox
i re-evaluate these xeps in gajim currently so i wonder if its worth to keep them
-
lovetox
would it not make more sense to have a user status xep
-
lovetox
just a node where a user can publish multiple things that could be extended
-
lovetox
like a link to a picture
-
lovetox
or video
-
Zash
Hm, wasn't the need for a status-in-pep xep agreed upon already?
-
jonasw
yeah, that was part of summit
-
jonasw
lovetox, go write it down, it’ll get accepted
-
lovetox
yeah maybe i invest my energy into that instead of refactoring code for mood and activity
-
lovetox
because almost no one supports that anyway
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Zash
Poezio and pidgin does
-
Zash
Or, activity at least
-
Zash
Yeah, mood too
-
lovetox
so what does a status xep need
-
lovetox
text obviously
-
lovetox
a way to add a URI to some file or video
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Zash
<show> and <status> from presence probably?
-
lovetox
really show?
-
Zash
URI?
-
lovetox
why we have that in presence
-
lovetox
why would i need it in status again
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Zash
I got the impression that consensus was that the things in <presence> ought to be in a per-account PEP thing instead.
-
Zash
And the relevant things are basically just show and status
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lovetox
you talk like you can get rid of presence
-
lovetox
presence will be there, so the show information is already known to the client
-
lovetox
hm or is it possible to leave show out of presnece?
-
Zash
I said nothing about removing from presence.
-
Zash
It'd probably be a mess of both anyways
-
lovetox
also different resources can have differen show
-
lovetox
show can never be in a pep node
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daniel
There was talk at the summit (and I tend to agree with the idea) to remove Show and status from presence and put that into a pep node
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lovetox
if i disconnect, the pep node will show online forever
-
daniel
Because if you are dnd with one client you probably want to be dnd with all
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lovetox
but than you need server addon
-
daniel
And what ever clever status you came up with you probably want that to be global as well
-
Zash
Well, sometimes I don't want you to disturb my phone, but you can talk to me at my desktop
-
lovetox
that changes the show inside the pepnode in some circumstances
-
daniel
Zash: with carbons that will arrive at your phone though and disturb you there anyway, no?
-
lovetox
yeah what Zash said, im not sold on that, seems forced, and the only plus is that you can sync show over clients, but who really wants that
-
Zash
Yup
-
Zash
I was fairly happy with how it worked when I originally stared with Jabber after all
-
lovetox
if you set status DND on your client and he still notifys you the same as when you are online
-
Zash
I didn't want to move to everything everywhere all the time and everything persisted forever on some cloud somewhere
-
lovetox
i woudl say thats a client problem
-
Zash
And a dnd status doesn't seem to stop people from messaging anyways
-
lovetox
why should it? if you dont want to get messages go offline
-
Zash
lovetox: re your original question, why not rip out mood and stuff into a plugin (or tell those who wants the feature to write a plugin)
-
lovetox
because i need to add a api to show the icons than
-
lovetox
and maintain that until the end of time
-
lovetox
lets do a status xep
-
lovetox
but this show idea has way to many holes for me
-
lovetox
and also its just not really solving a problem
-
lovetox
i never heard someone complain that he wants his status synced over all clients
-
MattJ
lovetox, plugins being able to show icons next to the contacts, for a client like Gajim, seems like a nice idea :)
-
lovetox
was the current trend not to dont even allow and show status changes ^^
-
Zash
it seems to be coming back
-
Zash
you can be ahead of the curve!
-
Zash
trens are often cyclic after all
-
Zash
I mean gateways and transports are apparently all the rage again
-
Maranda
Are they?
- intosi dusts off Jabber RPC
-
Zash
Isn't that the sell with Matrix?
-
Maranda
🤣 🤣
-
Zash
And the whole Slack bridge issue
-
lovetox
hm what does movim?
-
lovetox
do they put status into pubsub
-
Maranda
XMPP bridge/federation of MatriX?
-
Zash
And the thing where we've got a new generation of a bazillion different services and people are getting fed up with having a ton of chat apps at once
-
Zash
All the old is new again!
-
edhelas
Also tons of social network accounts
-
moparisthebest
are there tons of social networks? I thought it was essentially just facebook
-
moparisthebest
same with chat really, except like 8 of 10 top chat apps are just facebook owned...
-
Zash
don't forget how google has a dosen or something
-
Maranda
Huhu
-
Zash
also signal, wire, telegram, ... others
-
Maranda
All I use is Facebook and Instagram... Or should I count WhatsApp too?
-
edhelas
IRC
-
moparisthebest
someone in some xmpp muc pasted a chart of the top 10 chat apps recently...
-
moparisthebest
not recently enough for me to find in history though
-
Maranda
I tried to get someone to use Conversations apparently it's "nerd stuff", "rocket science" 🤔
-
moparisthebest
I tend to think there is no hope for a user that just wants to use their phone number and no username/password
-
moparisthebest
because that's really the only hurdle to conversations over whatscrap
-
lovetox
i can tell you that order moparisthebest
-
lovetox
whatsapp, facebook, weechat, rest
-
moparisthebest
weechat the IRC relay? no way normal users use that
-
moparisthebest
I was shocked recently when a few newish ~25 year old programmers started at work and hadn't heard of IRC... :'(
-
lovetox
So was the talks about the status xep anywhere written down
-
lovetox
then i give it a try to write down a xep
-
lovetox
moparisthebest, wee chat is the biggest messenger in china
-
lovetox
i think a billion users easy
-
moparisthebest
"WeeChat is a free and open-source Internet Relay Chat client" https://weechat.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeeChat
-
moparisthebest
ah so you meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat :)
-
lovetox
lol, ok there are 2 :d
-
moparisthebest
I'd only heard of the IRC one, wikipedia has at the top "Not to be confused with WeChat." but clearly they *are* to be confused haha
-
lovetox
is there somewhere a list with all published xeps?
-
moparisthebest
lovetox, https://xmpp.org/extensions/ ?
-
lovetox
yes nice
-
Neustradamus
lovetox: Psi/+
-
moparisthebest
lovetox, also https://github.com/xsf/xeps if you'd rather grep XML or whatever
-
Neustradamus
Today, I have looked the https://xmpp.org/registrar/namespaces.html, not all are on it
-
Guus
Neustradamus: please provide fixes.
-
lovetox
can xep 372 be used for quoting older messages?
-
lovetox
or was the idea something different
-
lovetox
because im a bit confused why it says message MUST NOT contain a body
-
lovetox
quoting messages without adding a reply seems not so nice
-
lovetox
ah no i see we have 0367 for that
-
lovetox
seems reference use case is something differnet
-
lovetox
ok no thats also not it
-
lovetox
i hoped there is something easy like adding a stanza id so the other client knows this is a reply to that message and can show it as a quote
-
lovetox
though a client that does not support that would miss the meaning..
-
lovetox
hm i guess i stick to > for quoting
-
lovetox
or use the new 0394
-
MattJ
ITYM 393: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html#quote
-
moparisthebest
plus it's not like stanza id is globally unique, or that you can rely on any client actually having that copy?
-
Zash
the touple of (jid, stanza-id) should be tho
-
lovetox
and why should i care if someone uses a client thats no able to generate a uuid?
-
lovetox
people should not use these clients
-
lovetox
with stanza-id i meant message-id
-
lovetox
i was not talking about a mam added stanza-id
-
moparisthebest
still the second part is true isn't it?
-
lovetox
yes, contact not having the referenced message is a problem
-
lovetox
using 0394 is also a problem
-
lovetox
if the other client doesnt support it, every trace of quote is gone
-
moparisthebest
I'd say just use 393 just like everything has always done even before 393 or even xmpp
-
lovetox
this might be one of the exceptions where you want to mix markup and 0394
-
moparisthebest
good enough for email/irc, good enough now :)
-
lovetox
how is this good enough if you receive a message like this
-
lovetox
> do it like that
-
lovetox
who wrote this message?
-
lovetox
who am i quoting?
-
moparisthebest
looks like you quoted a message to me
-
lovetox
what time was this message written?
-
lovetox
all these things could be added in 0394
-
moparisthebest
> [TIMESTAMPHERE] lovetox: bla bla bla
-
moparisthebest
good enough
-
moparisthebest
doesn't 394 have a way to discover if a contact has support? if not it's useless
-
lovetox
yes but this does not help you if there are multiple devices, and your contact is offline
-
moparisthebest
then you can't use it
-
lovetox
discovery for such things was always a bit meh
-
lovetox
most people just ignore it
-
lovetox
like with message receipts
-
lovetox
i dont care if a contact supports that or not
-
lovetox
just send it
-
lovetox
and the same with xhtml etc, maybe contact comes later online with a client that knows xhtml and loads message from MAM
-
moparisthebest
well you can always send both like some clients (pidgin?) does with xhtml and open up all sorts of security problems with PGP/OMEMO/OTR
-
lovetox
yes encryption is a trap
-
lovetox
but after falling in this trap i have now a sanitizer that has a tag whitelist
-
moparisthebest
or you can ignore 394 and just send messages every client will understand regardless of if they have explicit 393 support or not...
-
lovetox
so this can never happen again
-
lovetox
gajim supports > quoting
-
lovetox
but i think about ways to draw it more beautiful, and a reference to the original message seems helpful with that
-
lovetox
so doing > blabla
-
lovetox
and adding more stuff via 0294
-
lovetox
0394
-
lovetox
and when displaying with 0394 support, delete the > out of the message
-
lovetox
this seems one of these exceptions where you want to have markup inside body
-
Ge0rG
Markright.
-
Guus
How is the German meetup going? #PicsOrItDidntHappen
-
Holger
Guus: Very well, 11 people, a few of them first-time visitors.
-
Holger
> #PicsOrItDidntHappen My upload is currently broken, sorry 😉
-
MattJ
Holger, nonsense, it's HTTP, it just works!
-
Guus
Holger: what he said!
-
Ge0rG
Holger: you need a better client then.
-
lovetox
so i written down a xep draft
-
lovetox
inside a xml file
-
lovetox
how can i get this to be rendered?
-
lovetox
if i open it with chrome it shows nothing
-
Neustradamus
lovetox: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0134.html + https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html
-
lovetox
thx Neustradamus
-
lovetox
hm nice ok worked :)
-
lovetox
so here http://www.funkroom.net/xep/xep-status.html i copied most of the stuff from other xeps hope this is no problem does someone care to tell me what was talked about and what should go into this
-
edhelas
soon Presence over PEP ?
-
lovetox
the question is why do i have to parse from 2 xeps and one core mechanic stuff to get the full status of a contact
-
lovetox
presence, mood, activity
-
lovetox
i just want to provide a textfield where the user can put in whatever he likes (emojis, text) and publish this to all my contacts
-
lovetox
not send a presence, publish my mood, then publish my activity
-
lovetox
and with the added bonus of pep syncing this also to my other clients, this just makes sense :)