pep.I think I'm late to the party, it's the xhtml-im thread all over again
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stuxnetMaybe you should ask a search engine of your trust
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SyndaceMy OMEMO library successfully decrypted its first message sent to it from conversations today!
MattJYay :)
SyndaceIs my name Syndace currently? Little confused
MattJYes
SyndaceNice
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vanitasvitaeSyndace: nice!
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goffiSyndace: great, looking forward to try it.
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MarandaUrm the OSX Messages App can do xmpp?
ZashYou don't remember iChat?
MarandaHmm yes but I don't know if it still has xmpp support
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MarandaZash, apple stuff not really my thing tbh :P
marcSyndace, what language do you use for your OMEMO lib?
SyndacePython
Syndace(2 and 3)
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goffiSyndace: which dependencies does it have?
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Syndacelibsodium for the crypto and google protobuf for the wire format
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vanitasvitaeSyndace: you know that OWS likes to consider implementations of the signal protocol as derivative work? :/
Syndacevanitasvitae, the specification of the protocol is creative commons
marcSyndace, what is your use case? are you also working on a xmpp client?
iiro.laihobut can a protocol really be copyrightable?
Syndacevanitasvitai, But I don't know a whole lot about licenses, I hope for a little help by you guys once it's public
Syndacemarc, I want to provide a solid alternative to the monopoly libsignal implementation, that does not use GPL.
ZashSyndace: Have you as much as thought about looking at their implementation?
moparisthebestiiro.laiho: Oracle lawyers would argue yes
SyndaceI hope it'll help OMEMO move forward
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moparisthebestSyndace: you probably can't accept help from anyone who looked at gpl signal code
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SyndaceDamn what?
SyndaceI can't even look at it?
marcvanitasvitae, wait, the OWS guys hinder open source devs implementing their protocol?
moparisthebestSyndace: no you cannot look at it
SyndaceI did not reuse any of their code
vanitasvitaemarc: i remember they sued the wire guys
vanitasvitaeBut that was before the protocol specs were released afaik
SyndaceI finished the library without looking at libsignal, only when I was done I had to look at it, to know how they serialize their data structures.
SyndaceI can't be compatible to their library without knowing that
moparisthebestSyndace: that makes it a derivative work and gpl I think
SyndaceWhy is GPL such cancer
Syndace(sorry)
SyndaceI guess if things get problematic it's okay to go with GPL until we maybe move away from libsignals wire format and we finally have our own OMEMO.
Zashmarc: You've not seen the looooooong threads about how OMEMO can't be used unless there's a non-GPL library?
moparisthebestGpl is the best, don't fight it, just let it's glory wash over you
Syndacemoparisthebest: Thanks, will do so later
marcZash, no, are you kidding me? :D
SamWhitedPlease dear god don't make another GPL implementation…
Zashmarc: I don't know how long the threads were. Server dev, etc.
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SyndaceAaaaaaah haaalp :D
Zashmarc: But they existed.
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SamWhitedI would absolutely *love* it if there was an Apache or BSD/MIT/similar licensed version.
ZashCode in RFCs are usually some BSD license for a reason, after all.
SyndaceI really don't want GPL, but if just looking at their wire format makes the lib GPL, I have no choice
marcZash, what's the problem in a nutshell?
SamWhitedIt doesn't as long as you're not redistributing their library or code.
SamWhited(disclaimer: not a lawyer, etc.)
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SyndaceWell the one thing that I kind of have to "copy" or at least recreate is their protobuf structure definition
goffiSyndace: FSF can link you with a lawyer if you need advices
SyndaceThat's just part of the current OMEMO specification and there's no way (I can think of) to avoid that
Zashmarc: It doesn't fit in a nutshell.
SamWhitedAre we still using their protobuf stuff? I thought daniel moved OMEMO off of that a while ago
SamWhitedApparently I was mistaken
SyndaceSamWhited, nope, that's the current OMEMO xep
Syndaceincluding the protobuf stuff
SyndaceSamWhited: I think the other ones are still pr's on github
SamWhitedoh right, we never merged those.
SamWhitedPartially due to the disagreement about there not being a non-GPL library, IIRC :)
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SyndaceHa!
moparisthebestSyndace: so the proper way to do that is have someone else look and document it, then you recreate it from docs
Zashmarc: Look for posts by Remko or Kev I guess
moparisthebestBut it's too late now...
Syndacemoparisthebest: Not too late, the wireformat is just a super small part, I might aswell release the lib without the wire format first.
marcZash, @standards
ZashImplement only from documentation, while being locked in a room with only that documentation and an airgapped type writer.
marc?
Zashmarc: yes
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moparisthebestBut then you can't write it since you looked Syndace , you could document it though
ZashOr pray that they don't read these logs :)
moparisthebesthttps://github.com/SirCmpwn/TrueCraft/blob/master/README.md#get-involved similarish problem explaining it Syndace
moparisthebestOWS does have a history of suing people too
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SyndaceSo, following plan: The library is alreay split into multiple projects: The X3DH key agreement, the DoubleRatchet the XEdDSA and the final OMEMO library, putting it all together.
All of the parts, except for the OMEMO library, were written without having a single look at the libsignal implementation.
So, I could release huge parts under MIT, except for the OMEMO part, which I have to GPL apparently.
That's what we could do as a transitional solution. And as soon as we merge a PR moving away from the libsignal wire format, we can swap the last part to MIT.
vanitasvitaeSyndace: you could define your own wire format
vanitasvitaeThe we patch libsignal :D
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vanitasvitaeNevermind, thata what you just wrote :D
lovetoxSyndace, do you have your code public?
Syndacenot yet
SyndaceExpected in a few days, less than a week
lovetoxi currently use python-axolotl
lovetoxbut it uses pycrypto which is bad, and also the project seems not maintained anymore
lovetoxso im looking forward to your work
Syndacelovetox: Nice to hear, I'm super excited :D
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SyndaceMy phone is going to die, I'll read through the links you sent me later, in the worst case I'll just have to GPL it for now and we'll see what the future brings. I really don't want problems with the law.
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goffiSyndace: GPL is OK for me, looking forward to try it too, thanks to it I may implement OMEMO earlier than initially planed
moparisthebestHonestly closed source e2e is worthless anyway
goffimoparisthebest: GPL is an issue with Apple, AFAIK it's not compatible with apple store
moparisthebestgoffi: Apple can go to hell :)
goffiI could do a IPhone frontend more or less easily without that
Syndacegoffi: libsignal has an exception for apply in their lib
goffimoparisthebest: agreed, but still lot of people use it, and if we want XMPP to spread
moparisthebestBut libsignal etc has Apple store exceptions...
moparisthebestgoffi: chatsecure on iOS already does omemo
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goffimoparisthebest: yes, but would be nice to have alternative, and in our case we have many features not implemented in chat secure
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moparisthebestgoffi: what's stopping anyone from improving it, forking it, or just creating a new one?
moparisthebestCertainly not the gpl
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goffimoparisthebest: I have already a client which could work in iOS easily on the technical side, but not because of their stupid conditions, that's all I'm saying.
moparisthebestgoffi: so complain to Apple? Idk
moparisthebestThe solution to brain dead apple policy decisions is not to relicense all software with worse licences
danieliOS market share is in decline. Just sit it out
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goffimoparisthebest: I was saying that to explain why GPL could be a problem (I was not aware of the exception in libsignal), and I'm not willing to relicense because of apple.
moparisthebestBut that's an apple problem not a gpl one...
goffiI agree, but that's a reason why people may want an non gpl OMEMO lib
goffiI'm not blaming GPL in any way
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moparisthebestIt's clear why Apple hates the GPL, they've made their Fortune off the backs of open source code that isn't GPL, if everything was GPL they wouldn't be a company
ZashThey haven't figured out how it goes both ways
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moparisthebestWell GPL makes it go both ways, MIT/ Apache etc it only goes one way, into Apple's pockets
ZashI mean, the dual-licensing thing some do.
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Andrew Nenakhovgoffi, > moparisthebest: GPL is an issue with Apple, AFAIK it's not compatible with apple store
That is not true
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Andrew NenakhovOne can run open source app on AppStore pretty fine unless some of the contributors will issue a complaint. That was the reason of vlc takedown several years ago
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Andrew NenakhovSo we'll be forced to sign contributors to give us all rights to contributed code if we are to accept PRs
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moparisthebestHaha JC made it http://n-gate.com/hackernews/