XSF Discussion - 2018-03-17

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13:46:26 pep. I think I'm late to the party, it's the xhtml-im thread all over again
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14:34:23 stuxnet Maybe you should ask a search engine of your trust
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14:50:41 Syndace My OMEMO library successfully decrypted its first message sent to it from conversations today!
14:52:06 MattJ Yay :)
14:52:22 Syndace Is my name Syndace currently? Little confused
14:52:37 MattJ Yes
14:52:45 Syndace Nice
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15:07:20 vanitasvitae Syndace: nice!
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15:12:14 goffi Syndace: great, looking forward to try it.
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15:25:46 Maranda Urm the OSX Messages App can do xmpp?
15:26:15 Zash You don't remember iChat?
15:27:11 Maranda Hmm yes but I don't know if it still has xmpp support
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15:30:29 Maranda Zash, apple stuff not really my thing tbh :P
15:31:47 marc Syndace, what language do you use for your OMEMO lib?
15:32:13 Syndace Python
15:32:31 Syndace (2 and 3)
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15:35:03 goffi Syndace: which dependencies does it have?
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15:36:21 Syndace libsodium for the crypto and google protobuf for the wire format
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15:38:06 vanitasvitae Syndace: you know that OWS likes to consider implementations of the signal protocol as derivative work? :/
15:39:43 Syndace vanitasvitae, the specification of the protocol is creative commons
15:40:06 marc Syndace, what is your use case? are you also working on a xmpp client?
15:40:22 iiro.laiho but can a protocol really be copyrightable?
15:40:58 Syndace vanitasvitai, But I don't know a whole lot about licenses, I hope for a little help by you guys once it's public
15:41:34 Syndace marc, I want to provide a solid alternative to the monopoly libsignal implementation, that does not use GPL.
15:41:42 Zash Syndace: Have you as much as thought about looking at their implementation?
15:41:45 moparisthebest iiro.laiho: Oracle lawyers would argue yes
15:41:57 Syndace I hope it'll help OMEMO move forward
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15:42:40 moparisthebest Syndace: you probably can't accept help from anyone who looked at gpl signal code
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15:43:05 Syndace Damn what?
15:43:28 Syndace I can't even look at it?
15:43:34 marc vanitasvitae, wait, the OWS guys hinder open source devs implementing their protocol?
15:44:02 moparisthebest Syndace: no you cannot look at it
15:44:03 Syndace I did not reuse any of their code
15:44:59 vanitasvitae marc: i remember they sued the wire guys
15:45:14 vanitasvitae But that was before the protocol specs were released afaik
15:45:49 Syndace I finished the library without looking at libsignal, only when I was done I had to look at it, to know how they serialize their data structures.
15:46:21 Syndace I can't be compatible to their library without knowing that
15:46:33 moparisthebest Syndace: that makes it a derivative work and gpl I think
15:47:01 Syndace Why is GPL such cancer
15:47:04 Syndace (sorry)
15:47:49 Syndace I guess if things get problematic it's okay to go with GPL until we maybe move away from libsignals wire format and we finally have our own OMEMO.
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15:48:15 marc Syndace, is there demand for a non-gpl lib?
15:48:17 moparisthebest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design?wprov=sfla1
15:48:37 moparisthebest Check that Syndace
15:49:08 Zash marc: You've not seen the looooooong threads about how OMEMO can't be used unless there's a non-GPL library?
15:49:16 moparisthebest Gpl is the best, don't fight it, just let it's glory wash over you
15:49:58 Syndace moparisthebest: Thanks, will do so later
15:50:06 marc Zash, no, are you kidding me? :D
15:50:57 SamWhited Please dear god don't make another GPL implementation…
15:51:00 Zash marc: I don't know how long the threads were. Server dev, etc.
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15:51:10 Syndace Aaaaaaah haaalp :D
15:51:11 Zash marc: But they existed.
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15:51:21 SamWhited I would absolutely *love* it if there was an Apache or BSD/MIT/similar licensed version.
15:51:43 Zash Code in RFCs are usually some BSD license for a reason, after all.
15:51:50 Syndace I really don't want GPL, but if just looking at their wire format makes the lib GPL, I have no choice
15:52:02 marc Zash, what's the problem in a nutshell?
15:52:03 SamWhited It doesn't as long as you're not redistributing their library or code.
15:52:11 SamWhited (disclaimer: not a lawyer, etc.)
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15:53:20 Syndace Well the one thing that I kind of have to "copy" or at least recreate is their protobuf structure definition
15:53:36 goffi Syndace: FSF can link you with a lawyer if you need advices
15:53:54 Syndace That's just part of the current OMEMO specification and there's no way (I can think of) to avoid that
15:54:04 Zash marc: It doesn't fit in a nutshell.
15:54:05 SamWhited Are we still using their protobuf stuff? I thought daniel moved OMEMO off of that a while ago
15:54:23 SamWhited Apparently I was mistaken
15:54:27 Syndace SamWhited, nope, that's the current OMEMO xep
15:54:37 Syndace including the protobuf stuff
15:54:52 Syndace SamWhited: I think the other ones are still pr's on github
15:55:07 SamWhited oh right, we never merged those.
15:55:20 SamWhited Partially due to the disagreement about there not being a non-GPL library, IIRC :)
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15:55:31 Syndace Ha!
15:55:38 moparisthebest Syndace: so the proper way to do that is have someone else look and document it, then you recreate it from docs
15:55:40 Zash marc: Look for posts by Remko or Kev I guess
15:55:46 moparisthebest But it's too late now...
15:56:25 Syndace moparisthebest: Not too late, the wireformat is just a super small part, I might aswell release the lib without the wire format first.
15:56:28 marc Zash, @standards
15:56:28 Zash Implement only from documentation, while being locked in a room with only that documentation and an airgapped type writer.
15:56:29 marc ?
15:56:32 Zash marc: yes
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15:57:36 moparisthebest But then you can't write it since you looked Syndace , you could document it though
15:58:10 Zash Or pray that they don't read these logs :)
15:58:50 moparisthebest https://github.com/SirCmpwn/TrueCraft/blob/master/README.md#get-involved similarish problem explaining it Syndace
15:59:26 moparisthebest OWS does have a history of suing people too
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16:01:13 Syndace So, following plan: The library is alreay split into multiple projects: The X3DH key agreement, the DoubleRatchet the XEdDSA and the final OMEMO library, putting it all together. All of the parts, except for the OMEMO library, were written without having a single look at the libsignal implementation. So, I could release huge parts under MIT, except for the OMEMO part, which I have to GPL apparently. That's what we could do as a transitional solution. And as soon as we merge a PR moving away from the libsignal wire format, we can swap the last part to MIT.
16:01:27 vanitasvitae Syndace: you could define your own wire format
16:01:58 vanitasvitae The we patch libsignal :D
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16:02:39 vanitasvitae Nevermind, thata what you just wrote :D
16:03:16 lovetox Syndace, do you have your code public?
16:03:25 Syndace not yet
16:03:39 Syndace Expected in a few days, less than a week
16:05:38 lovetox i currently use python-axolotl
16:06:23 lovetox but it uses pycrypto which is bad, and also the project seems not maintained anymore
16:06:33 lovetox so im looking forward to your work
16:07:16 Syndace lovetox: Nice to hear, I'm super excited :D
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16:11:36 Syndace My phone is going to die, I'll read through the links you sent me later, in the worst case I'll just have to GPL it for now and we'll see what the future brings. I really don't want problems with the law.
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16:13:59 goffi Syndace: GPL is OK for me, looking forward to try it too, thanks to it I may implement OMEMO earlier than initially planed
16:14:28 moparisthebest Honestly closed source e2e is worthless anyway
16:14:57 goffi moparisthebest: GPL is an issue with Apple, AFAIK it's not compatible with apple store
16:15:29 moparisthebest goffi: Apple can go to hell :)
16:15:35 goffi I could do a IPhone frontend more or less easily without that
16:15:48 Syndace goffi: libsignal has an exception for apply in their lib
16:15:50 goffi moparisthebest: agreed, but still lot of people use it, and if we want XMPP to spread
16:15:51 moparisthebest But libsignal etc has Apple store exceptions...
16:16:12 moparisthebest goffi: chatsecure on iOS already does omemo
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16:16:53 goffi moparisthebest: yes, but would be nice to have alternative, and in our case we have many features not implemented in chat secure
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16:17:30 moparisthebest goffi: what's stopping anyone from improving it, forking it, or just creating a new one?
16:17:37 moparisthebest Certainly not the gpl
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16:18:44 goffi moparisthebest: I have already a client which could work in iOS easily on the technical side, but not because of their stupid conditions, that's all I'm saying.
16:19:42 moparisthebest goffi: so complain to Apple? Idk
16:20:31 moparisthebest The solution to brain dead apple policy decisions is not to relicense all software with worse licences
16:20:35 daniel iOS market share is in decline. Just sit it out
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16:21:37 goffi moparisthebest: I was saying that to explain why GPL could be a problem (I was not aware of the exception in libsignal), and I'm not willing to relicense because of apple.
16:22:15 moparisthebest But that's an apple problem not a gpl one...
16:22:40 goffi I agree, but that's a reason why people may want an non gpl OMEMO lib
16:23:22 goffi I'm not blaming GPL in any way
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16:27:23 moparisthebest It's clear why Apple hates the GPL, they've made their Fortune off the backs of open source code that isn't GPL, if everything was GPL they wouldn't be a company
16:27:51 Zash They haven't figured out how it goes both ways
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16:28:59 moparisthebest Well GPL makes it go both ways, MIT/ Apache etc it only goes one way, into Apple's pockets
16:30:57 Zash I mean, the dual-licensing thing some do.
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17:43:44 Andrew Nenakhov goffi, > moparisthebest: GPL is an issue with Apple, AFAIK it's not compatible with apple store That is not true
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17:45:45 Andrew Nenakhov One can run open source app on AppStore pretty fine unless some of the contributors will issue a complaint. That was the reason of vlc takedown several years ago
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17:46:41 Andrew Nenakhov So we'll be forced to sign contributors to give us all rights to contributed code if we are to accept PRs
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21:24:18 moparisthebest Haha JC made it http://n-gate.com/hackernews/
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