XSF Discussion - 2018-03-21

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  124. edhelas Dave Cridland o/
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  127. Dave Cridland Morning.
  128. MattJ Wake-up calls via XMPP? Where do I sign up?
  129. Zash Can I have an XMPP-controlled coffee machine too?
  130. fippo zash: qmacro's "programming jabber" has a chapter on that
  131. jonasw Zash, HTCPCP over XMPP? sounds like a protoxep to me!
  132. Guus Zash: you don't have a XMPP controlled coffee machine yet? How are you able to function in this society?!
  133. edhelas just sent a little remark for Bookmark 2 https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-March/034673.html I think that we need to discuss about those limitations and format for JIDs, node ids, item ids…
  134. Zash Guus: Barely
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  136. edhelas I though that Tox.im was about Tea Over XMPP
  137. Guus Argh. That's bound to cause interop problems.
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  140. Guus <error code='418' type='cancel'><i-am-a-teapot xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'/></error>
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  143. edhelas :p
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  161. Zash Oh no, out of coffee
  162. Zash is doomed
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  165. Ge0rG I'm out of a coffee machine, for weeks already.
  166. Zash I think I've used up my emergency backup beans too
  167. Ge0rG All I have is a ten-pack of instant coffee portions, and that is down to eight already.
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  195. Dave Cridland edhelas, You wrote lots of words which I mentally summarised as "Yes, I think the XSF should work on this proposal".
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  200. Dave Cridland edhelas, And having caught up on that thread - lots of people have written the same thing in many ways (ie, yes, let's work on that spec in the XSF). So if the Council accepts it, I'll go over those and respond and/or update as needed.
  201. Dave Cridland Or JC can, of course.
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  203. edhelas so this could lead to a new XEP-**** Formats of Identifiers in XMPP or updating the existing XEPs to define those formats and limitations (for 0060 at least)
  204. Zash Surely you can apply stricter restrictions for local data?
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  208. edhelas I am, I need to define the structure of my data in my SQL DB
  209. edhelas and I can tell you that I cannot define a really long Pubsub item id at the moment (depending of the encoding of the characters as well)
  210. Zash And then there's the thing where hostparts in JIDs are allowed to be 1023 bytes but DNS doesn't allow more than ~255 bytes
  211. edhelas oh I wasn't aware of that
  212. Zash And Prosody by default doesn't allow anywhere near that long JIDs
  213. Zash Or, default storage implementaion won't accept it.
  214. edhelas would be nice to open a wiki page or notepad to list what limitation we put in our softwares regarding those things :)
  215. edhelas it can give a nice overview
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  217. Kev Personally, I think pubsub-using-specs should just say 'in normalised form'.
  218. edhelas ?
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  220. jonasw I still don’t understand peters point that we need to specify a normalization for pubsub nodes (in contrast to specifying to NOT use normalization)
  221. Kev When putting JIDs into nodes :)
  222. edhelas I'm also using those pubsub identifiers to craft urls, so you have URLs limitations in there
  223. Kev Or into IDs, rather.
  224. jonasw (in the general case, that is)
  225. jonasw maybe somenoe can help me out with that?
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  233. SaltyBones Why is resource locking out of fashion now?
  234. SaltyBones Is there a XEP on that?
  235. Zash Conflicts with the model in which all messages are available on all devices all the time
  236. SaltyBones Zash, got some more details? :)
  237. Zash Not really
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  240. jonasw SaltyBones, see Ge0rGs XMPP 2 slides
  241. Ge0rG Resource locking was only a small part of that, though
  242. jonasw SaltyBones, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Georg%27s_Talk_on_Message_routing
  243. jonasw SaltyBones, search for "resource" in that
  244. Ge0rG Wow, I've got a wiki article of my own!
  245. jonasw Ge0rG, don’t you already have User:Ge0rg? ;-)
  246. Ge0rG jonasw: yes, I'm used to having written all the wiki pages with my name in the title. This one is a welcome exception
  247. SaltyBones It's a bit brief considering that it is contradicting xep-0296 ;)
  248. jonasw Ge0rG, council.agenda.append("Obsolete XEP-0296") :-)
  249. Zash Obsoleted by Carbons and MAM
  250. Ge0rG jonasw: yes, but only for messages, not for IQs
  251. Ge0rG SaltyBones: search the ML archives for "resource locking" and "burn with fire" :P
  252. jonasw you can’t eliminate resource locking for IQs obviously?
  253. Ge0rG Sorry, I've got real work to do now. BBL
  254. jonasw you can’t eliminate use of full JIDs for IQs obviously?
  255. SaltyBones Ge0rG, I think the ML archive has no search function. O_o
  256. jonasw SaltyBones, use your favourite search engine with `site:mail.jabber.org "Standards" your search terms here`
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  258. Zash Anyone get anywhere with borrowing the IETF mail search thing?
  259. Zash https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/
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  261. SaltyBones jonasw, doesn't seem to work :)
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  270. Ge0rG jonasw: Dave's last mail just inspired a feature request for JabberCat: announce <show>chat</> whenever a cat is walking over the keyboard.
  271. Zash <show>cat</>
  272. Zash CSN should have a <cat-on-keyboard/> state
  273. Zash How can we ever compete with Skype without such a critical feature?
  274. Ge0rG Does skype have that?
  275. Zash It did in 2009 or so I've heard.
  276. Ge0rG Wow, we are almost a decade behind!
  277. Zash No idea if the Linux version had it, but it was crime-against-humanity levels of bad.
  278. Ge0rG Skype overall or just that feature?
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  280. Zash Skype on Linux was bad
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  467. SaltyBones regarding the muc discussion on the mailing list
  468. SaltyBones why is it that every client has to join a muc separately in the first place?
  469. Zash Because it's designed like that
  470. SaltyBones fair
  471. MattJ The concept of a chatroom/conference is pretty old, and it includes the idea of presence (i.e. people are currently in the room or they aren't)
  472. MattJ That list is separate to the list of people who theoretically have access to the room
  473. MattJ Now people have multiple devices, and all of them are online/offline at different times, and we have the storage capabilities to store messages indefinitely, people care less about presence
  474. Kev SaltyBones: Because it's not MIX yet.
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  479. Zash This concept that you are always online and you have access to everyething everywhere is fairly new
  480. Kev I think the ideal flow goes: User enters room on any client: gets bookmarked autojoin User leaves room: gets un-autojoined Client gets autojoin for room it's not in: joins Client gets un-autojoin for room it's in: leaves
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  482. Kev Which is, I believe, a paraphrase of what Sam said.
  483. Zash Kev: For normal people perhaps.
  484. SamWhited Yup, that's a clearer way to say what I was trying to say.,
  485. Kev I have an interest in XMPP for normal people :)
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  490. Zash I have an interest in not getting annoyed by things.
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  494. Kev What aspect of this would be annoying?
  495. Dave Cridland There is the thing where desktop clients might want to join rooms where the mobile wouldn't.
  496. Zash Computers doing things without permission annoys me. Clients joining rooms without my direct action is already annoying me.
  497. Kev Dave Cridland: I don't think that's a thing, I really don't. I think wanting to avoid wasted bandwidth on mobile clients is a thing, but I don't think that's the same.
  498. Dave Cridland Kev, Not bandwidth, actually, but visibility and interrupts.
  499. Kev Interrupts are a general question, yes, but not limited to MUCs.
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  503. Ge0rG I'd say that we need some kind of centralized per-JID notification settings
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  505. Ge0rG That and useful traffic limitation for mobile.
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  507. Ge0rG As was said recently, we could auto-leave all no-notification MUCs on a mobile client and only join+MAMsync when the user taps the MUC
  508. Kev We could, although I think no-notification MUCs are relatively rare.
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  510. Kev Saying that, mind, I have several channels in Discord that I've Muted.
  511. Ge0rG the interesting challenge is solving CSI and push notifications in the presence of E2EE
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  526. moparisthebest I normally only want notifications in muc's when my name is highlighted
  527. moparisthebest really on mobile and desktop
  528. Ge0rG moparisthebest: so how is that supposed to work with OMEMO?
  529. moparisthebest the server would just send all those
  530. moparisthebest ie, it wouldn't
  531. Ge0rG good bye battery
  532. flow or you intentionally leak the recipient
  533. moparisthebest it's nice to be able to have omemo mucs, but I'd say most aren't
  534. moparisthebest and the ones that are I believe should be a small number of people and not that busy?
  535. flow I'd also argue that most OMEMO MUCs are private and low traffic
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  537. moparisthebest flow, you read my mind :)
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  539. flow e.g. your family
  540. Zash Is that because it simply doesn't work (yet) with larger groups or because some other reason?
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  543. moparisthebest I think most are like this room, public, probably even logged
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  545. Zash I mean, is it because technical reasons that are very likely to change in the future or because of social reasons that will likely stay the same?
  546. Zash Assuming how things will work in the future based on how it works now isn't the most reliable
  547. moparisthebest my gut feeling is social reasons that are likely to stay the same
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  552. Zash Also, people tend to challenge limits.
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  554. moparisthebest well, right now *all* muc messages are sent to the phone all the time right? (for ones you are joined)
  555. moparisthebest if Ge0rG is saying this situation will remain the same in the future with omemo, that's right, I don't see a problem with it
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  565. pep. > Kev> We could, although I think no-notification MUCs are relatively rare. On Work Mattermost I disabled every single notification, and I'm join in a handful of rooms (~ 20). I don't think it's that rare
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  567. pep. > Kev> We could, although I think no-notification MUCs are relatively rare. On Work Mattermost I disabled every single notification, and I'm joined in a handful of rooms (~ 20). I don't think it's that rare
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  603. moparisthebest ha nginx just recently got ability to multiplex based on alpn http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx/2018-March/055798.html
  604. moparisthebest guy in the conversations muc said he'll bug someone here for a wiki account to document it soon
  605. moparisthebest 9 days ago http://hg.nginx.org/nginx/rev/79eb4f7b6725
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