XSF Discussion - 2018-03-21

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  124. edhelas

    Dave Cridland o/

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  127. Dave Cridland


  128. MattJ

    Wake-up calls via XMPP? Where do I sign up?

  129. Zash

    Can I have an XMPP-controlled coffee machine too?

  130. fippo

    zash: qmacro's "programming jabber" has a chapter on that

  131. jonasw

    Zash, HTCPCP over XMPP? sounds like a protoxep to me!

  132. Guus

    Zash: you don't have a XMPP controlled coffee machine yet? How are you able to function in this society?!

  133. edhelas

    just sent a little remark for Bookmark 2 https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-March/034673.html I think that we need to discuss about those limitations and format for JIDs, node ids, item ids…

  134. Zash

    Guus: Barely

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  136. edhelas

    I though that Tox.im was about Tea Over XMPP

  137. Guus

    Argh. That's bound to cause interop problems.

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  140. Guus

    <error code='418' type='cancel'><i-am-a-teapot xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'/></error>

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  161. Zash

    Oh no, out of coffee

  162. Zash is doomed

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  165. Ge0rG

    I'm out of a coffee machine, for weeks already.

  166. Zash

    I think I've used up my emergency backup beans too

  167. Ge0rG

    All I have is a ten-pack of instant coffee portions, and that is down to eight already.

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  195. Dave Cridland

    edhelas, You wrote lots of words which I mentally summarised as "Yes, I think the XSF should work on this proposal".

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  200. Dave Cridland

    edhelas, And having caught up on that thread - lots of people have written the same thing in many ways (ie, yes, let's work on that spec in the XSF). So if the Council accepts it, I'll go over those and respond and/or update as needed.

  201. Dave Cridland

    Or JC can, of course.

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  203. edhelas

    so this could lead to a new XEP-**** Formats of Identifiers in XMPP or updating the existing XEPs to define those formats and limitations (for 0060 at least)

  204. Zash

    Surely you can apply stricter restrictions for local data?

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  208. edhelas

    I am, I need to define the structure of my data in my SQL DB

  209. edhelas

    and I can tell you that I cannot define a really long Pubsub item id at the moment (depending of the encoding of the characters as well)

  210. Zash

    And then there's the thing where hostparts in JIDs are allowed to be 1023 bytes but DNS doesn't allow more than ~255 bytes

  211. edhelas

    oh I wasn't aware of that

  212. Zash

    And Prosody by default doesn't allow anywhere near that long JIDs

  213. Zash

    Or, default storage implementaion won't accept it.

  214. edhelas

    would be nice to open a wiki page or notepad to list what limitation we put in our softwares regarding those things :)

  215. edhelas

    it can give a nice overview

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  217. Kev

    Personally, I think pubsub-using-specs should just say 'in normalised form'.

  218. edhelas


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  220. jonasw

    I still don’t understand peters point that we need to specify a normalization for pubsub nodes (in contrast to specifying to NOT use normalization)

  221. Kev

    When putting JIDs into nodes :)

  222. edhelas

    I'm also using those pubsub identifiers to craft urls, so you have URLs limitations in there

  223. Kev

    Or into IDs, rather.

  224. jonasw

    (in the general case, that is)

  225. jonasw

    maybe somenoe can help me out with that?

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  233. SaltyBones

    Why is resource locking out of fashion now?

  234. SaltyBones

    Is there a XEP on that?

  235. Zash

    Conflicts with the model in which all messages are available on all devices all the time

  236. SaltyBones

    Zash, got some more details? :)

  237. Zash

    Not really

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  240. jonasw

    SaltyBones, see Ge0rGs XMPP 2 slides

  241. Ge0rG

    Resource locking was only a small part of that, though

  242. jonasw

    SaltyBones, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Georg%27s_Talk_on_Message_routing

  243. jonasw

    SaltyBones, search for "resource" in that

  244. Ge0rG

    Wow, I've got a wiki article of my own!

  245. jonasw

    Ge0rG, don’t you already have User:Ge0rg? ;-)

  246. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes, I'm used to having written all the wiki pages with my name in the title. This one is a welcome exception

  247. SaltyBones

    It's a bit brief considering that it is contradicting xep-0296 ;)

  248. jonasw

    Ge0rG, council.agenda.append("Obsolete XEP-0296") :-)

  249. Zash

    Obsoleted by Carbons and MAM

  250. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes, but only for messages, not for IQs

  251. Ge0rG

    SaltyBones: search the ML archives for "resource locking" and "burn with fire" :P

  252. jonasw

    you can’t eliminate resource locking for IQs obviously?

  253. Ge0rG

    Sorry, I've got real work to do now. BBL

  254. jonasw

    you can’t eliminate use of full JIDs for IQs obviously?

  255. SaltyBones

    Ge0rG, I think the ML archive has no search function. O_o

  256. jonasw

    SaltyBones, use your favourite search engine with `site:mail.jabber.org "Standards" your search terms here`

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  258. Zash

    Anyone get anywhere with borrowing the IETF mail search thing?

  259. Zash


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  261. SaltyBones

    jonasw, doesn't seem to work :)

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  270. Ge0rG

    jonasw: Dave's last mail just inspired a feature request for JabberCat: announce <show>chat</> whenever a cat is walking over the keyboard.

  271. Zash


  272. Zash

    CSN should have a <cat-on-keyboard/> state

  273. Zash

    How can we ever compete with Skype without such a critical feature?

  274. Ge0rG

    Does skype have that?

  275. Zash

    It did in 2009 or so I've heard.

  276. Ge0rG

    Wow, we are almost a decade behind!

  277. Zash

    No idea if the Linux version had it, but it was crime-against-humanity levels of bad.

  278. Ge0rG

    Skype overall or just that feature?

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  280. Zash

    Skype on Linux was bad

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  467. SaltyBones

    regarding the muc discussion on the mailing list

  468. SaltyBones

    why is it that every client has to join a muc separately in the first place?

  469. Zash

    Because it's designed like that

  470. SaltyBones


  471. MattJ

    The concept of a chatroom/conference is pretty old, and it includes the idea of presence (i.e. people are currently in the room or they aren't)

  472. MattJ

    That list is separate to the list of people who theoretically have access to the room

  473. MattJ

    Now people have multiple devices, and all of them are online/offline at different times, and we have the storage capabilities to store messages indefinitely, people care less about presence

  474. Kev

    SaltyBones: Because it's not MIX yet.

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  479. Zash

    This concept that you are always online and you have access to everyething everywhere is fairly new

  480. Kev

    I think the ideal flow goes: User enters room on any client: gets bookmarked autojoin User leaves room: gets un-autojoined Client gets autojoin for room it's not in: joins Client gets un-autojoin for room it's in: leaves

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  482. Kev

    Which is, I believe, a paraphrase of what Sam said.

  483. Zash

    Kev: For normal people perhaps.

  484. SamWhited

    Yup, that's a clearer way to say what I was trying to say.,

  485. Kev

    I have an interest in XMPP for normal people :)

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  490. Zash

    I have an interest in not getting annoyed by things.

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  494. Kev

    What aspect of this would be annoying?

  495. Dave Cridland

    There is the thing where desktop clients might want to join rooms where the mobile wouldn't.

  496. Zash

    Computers doing things without permission annoys me. Clients joining rooms without my direct action is already annoying me.

  497. Kev

    Dave Cridland: I don't think that's a thing, I really don't. I think wanting to avoid wasted bandwidth on mobile clients is a thing, but I don't think that's the same.

  498. Dave Cridland

    Kev, Not bandwidth, actually, but visibility and interrupts.

  499. Kev

    Interrupts are a general question, yes, but not limited to MUCs.

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  503. Ge0rG

    I'd say that we need some kind of centralized per-JID notification settings

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  505. Ge0rG

    That and useful traffic limitation for mobile.

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  507. Ge0rG

    As was said recently, we could auto-leave all no-notification MUCs on a mobile client and only join+MAMsync when the user taps the MUC

  508. Kev

    We could, although I think no-notification MUCs are relatively rare.

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  510. Kev

    Saying that, mind, I have several channels in Discord that I've Muted.

  511. Ge0rG

    the interesting challenge is solving CSI and push notifications in the presence of E2EE

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  526. moparisthebest

    I normally only want notifications in muc's when my name is highlighted

  527. moparisthebest

    really on mobile and desktop

  528. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: so how is that supposed to work with OMEMO?

  529. moparisthebest

    the server would just send all those

  530. moparisthebest

    ie, it wouldn't

  531. Ge0rG

    good bye battery

  532. flow

    or you intentionally leak the recipient

  533. moparisthebest

    it's nice to be able to have omemo mucs, but I'd say most aren't

  534. moparisthebest

    and the ones that are I believe should be a small number of people and not that busy?

  535. flow

    I'd also argue that most OMEMO MUCs are private and low traffic

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  537. moparisthebest

    flow, you read my mind :)

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  539. flow

    e.g. your family

  540. Zash

    Is that because it simply doesn't work (yet) with larger groups or because some other reason?

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  543. moparisthebest

    I think most are like this room, public, probably even logged

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  545. Zash

    I mean, is it because technical reasons that are very likely to change in the future or because of social reasons that will likely stay the same?

  546. Zash

    Assuming how things will work in the future based on how it works now isn't the most reliable

  547. moparisthebest

    my gut feeling is social reasons that are likely to stay the same

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  552. Zash

    Also, people tend to challenge limits.

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  554. moparisthebest

    well, right now *all* muc messages are sent to the phone all the time right? (for ones you are joined)

  555. moparisthebest

    if Ge0rG is saying this situation will remain the same in the future with omemo, that's right, I don't see a problem with it

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  565. pep.

    > Kev> We could, although I think no-notification MUCs are relatively rare. On Work Mattermost I disabled every single notification, and I'm join in a handful of rooms (~ 20). I don't think it's that rare

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  567. pep.

    > Kev> We could, although I think no-notification MUCs are relatively rare. On Work Mattermost I disabled every single notification, and I'm joined in a handful of rooms (~ 20). I don't think it's that rare

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  603. moparisthebest

    ha nginx just recently got ability to multiplex based on alpn http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx/2018-March/055798.html

  604. moparisthebest

    guy in the conversations muc said he'll bug someone here for a wiki account to document it soon

  605. moparisthebest

    9 days ago http://hg.nginx.org/nginx/rev/79eb4f7b6725

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  641. MattJ


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  649. Zash

    Hm, didn't know nginx used hg

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  665. MattJ

    Me neither

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