moparisthebest: yes, all MUC messages go to all participants immediately, because the server doesn't know the user's notification settings
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: if the user has "notify on all messages", delaying would be bad
jonasw
but the users server may delay them with CSI
jonasw
if it knows about the notification settings :)
jonasw
moparisthebest, obviously, you haven’t been in the MUC of the local hacker space. People there think that using OMEMO in a public muc is a super great idea.
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jonasw
haven’t been there in a while, mind, all this "This message is OMEMO encrypted but your client doesn’t support it" was getting annoying.
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jonasw
great way to alienate people.
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Ge0rG
jonasw: if it knew. Which it can't.
jonasw
Ge0rG, yet. I think it was discussed at summit that a way for the server to know would be good?
Ge0rG
jonasw: yes. "would be good" is very far from an actual implementation, one might imagine.
Ge0rG
jonasw: if I had some time, I'd maybe write a PEP-based proto-XEP
jonasw
Ge0rG, better write a pep-based implementation first.
Ge0rG
which just stores a list of JIDs and their respective notification settings (always / mention / never)
jonasw
oh wait, we don’t even have reliable private PEP storage everywhere :<
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Ge0rG
jonasw: I didn't check in the last year. Do we have private PEP widely deployed already?
Ge0rG
Bookmarks2 FTW
jonasw
bm2 needs multi-item, persistence and private PEP. that’s gonna be hard.
Ge0rG
I'll just stick to 0048
Ge0rG
like I stick to google:queue.
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Maranda
*has CSI dealing only with presences mostly*
Ge0rG
Maranda: was that supposed to be a /me ?
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Kev
Ge0rG: I think so, we've been deploying it for years. The recent pubsub options change notwithstanding.
Kev
I *think* it's just Prosody that's had problems with PIP and things.
daniel
OpenFire and ejabberd should handle that fine I believe
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Ge0rG
So ~1/3 of the servers out there don't even have an implementation, and the other 2/3rds depend on which version they were abandoned at?
jonasw
Kev, are you intentionally calling it PIP? it confuses the hell out of me because of pythons package manager being called the same.
Kev
jonasw: Yes, because that's what 223 was called.
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jonasw
Kev, what’s the first P for?
jonasw
(the last is for PEP I guess)
Ge0rG
Private data In PEP? *guessing*
jonasw
(or PubSub)
Kev
Ge0rG: Maybe. Different people have different priorities here. Mine is mostly in moving things forward and having stuff available to people who do update servers and clients.
jonasw
Ge0rG, Kev, what’s the acronym for '222 then?
jonasw
PuIP?
Kev
Private Information Via Pubsub is 223
jonasw
or even PubIP, just one dash and a mirror operation away from a bad pun.
Kev
222 is POP - Persisting Objects via Pubsub
Ge0rG
I thought it was Persistent Storage of Private Data via PubSub
(if you need to detect sarcasm/irony/bad jokes in my messages, the following regex will help: /!{2,}k+\b/. it won’t show all instances, but has a zero false-positive rate)
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jonasw
(I think at least :))
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Ge0rG
jonasw: what's the "k" for?
jonasw
Ge0rG, it’s 1, but on my keyboard layout.
jonasw
modifier + k = !
jonasw
like modifier + 1 = ! on qwert[zy]
Ge0rG
jonasw: why are you leaking your keyboard layout to the general community?
jonasw
Ge0rG, because it’s 9:30am and I still haven’t gotten anything done probably.
Ge0rG
My goal for today's morning is to get onto that VPN that didn't let me work yesterday.
jonasw
so that it won’t let you work today either?
jonasw
sounds like a plan
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Maranda
Ge0rG possibly
Kev
Raising a slightly contentious idea...maybe we should bring back SIFT
Kev
Not actually SIFT, but something a bit like that.
jonasw
what’s SIFT
Kev
To solve this 'squelch MUC on mobile' issue.
Kev
SIFT's 273
waqasis sad that he wrote mod_sift for Prosody, but there were no clients to be found
Ge0rG
Kev: what's wrong with an account-side notification prefs list that will be used by CSI?
jonasw
SIFT looks like privacy lists, complexity wise.
Kev
jonasw: SIFT itself isn't the right solution here, no.
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Ge0rG
Let's collect all the requirements we had for SIFT, privacy lists and CSI and then make one big XEP to cover them all.
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Kev
Ge0rG: Nothing's wrong with that, but I'm not sure that goes far enough. Unless you're intending notification settings to be very powerful - which might work.
Ge0rG
Maybe also Message Archive.
waqas
Ge0rG: Just make sure it runs on top of pubsub
Ge0rG
Kev: I'm not sure how powerful you think I want them for this to work out.
Kev
Like, if you say things like "Squash messages from this JID unless they have a reference payload to my JID or @everyone but make sure they're in the archive, I'll fetch them when the user opens the window"
jonasw
Kev, actually, if SIFT had an "defer" action which would integrate with CSI, I can see a lot of use in that.
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Ge0rG
Kev: I wouldn't even touch archival in there. Just a tri-state of "never|mention|all"
Kev
Well, if it's not archived you've lost the ability to catch up again.
Ge0rG
and maybe a separate global setting what "mention" means exactly, like "nickname / string-list / @all"
Kev
But in XMPP2 where it would have been archived automatically...fine.
Ge0rG
Kev: I thought MAM was the way to archive things?
jonasw
what’s wrong with getting all messages, but CSI-delayed if they’re not notification-worthy?
Ge0rG
jonasw: it delays resync from zombie state
Kev
jonasw: Are you suggesting a server should buffer messages from a 5000-user IRC channel indefinitely?
jonasw
Kev, it could fetch them from MAM for the user.
jonasw
no need to keep them in memory.
jonasw
just a pointer to the point in the archive
Kev
If it's in MAM, there's no need for a buffer at all, the client can just request what it wants.
jonasw
ejabberd does it like that I think, even with presences.
jonasw
Kev, except that the client needs to do a thing the server could be doing for it ;-)
Ge0rG
Kev: a sane CSI implementation could dump the backlog periodically and/or when a certain number of messages have been backlogged
Kev
(Which is the better model - as the client will likely only want the most recent 100, or whatever, that contains the mention that caused you to open the room, not the previous 10,000)
jonasw
hm.
jonasw
maybe
Kev
Ge0rG: Maybe, although then you have to communicate to the user that they've got holes that they backfill with MAM.
jonasw
makes things much more complex though
Ge0rG
Kev: we've had that before. There is the "full client" and the "thin client" model.
Ge0rG
Kev: by "dump" I meant "send out to the client"
jonasw
Kev, so the client would have to make a MAM query after each message it receives in a room where it isn’t set to "notify on everything" to ensure it doesn’t have gaps?
filling backlog gaps from MAM is slightly challenging, and also not supported by RSM.
Kev
It's not ensuring that it doesn't have gaps, it knows it has gaps.
jonasw
Kev, depends on your use-case.
Ge0rG
I really don't want to model MAM gaps in my database structure.
Kev
Ge0rG: That's fine, you don't have to if you want to be a 'complete client'.
jonasw
I can see use for CSI in a desktop client if we can work out the timely notification thing.
jonasw
what’s a "complete client"?
Ge0rG
Kev: you seem to have modelled all the required protocol flows for both kinds of client in your head. I'd love to read up on that in a more persistent way than by querying you in a MUC
Ge0rG
jonasw: one that keeps a full local log of messages by default, without resorting to MAM whenever the user opens a chat tab
jonasw
isn’t that exactly the type of client which has to keep book of holes to ensure it can fill the gaps?
Kev
As opposed to a recent-only client, which just queries recent messages when you open a chat, and backfills as needed when the client scrolls.
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Wiktor
Hello! I'd like to extend the wiki page (https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/XEP-0368) with info on how to route HTTP/2 and XMPP TLS traffic on port 443 with nginx (the ability to route based on ALPN was recently added: http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx/2018-March/055798.html ). If it's possible would someone set me an account on wiki.xmpp.org? Thanks in advance!
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jonasw
Ge0rG, ^
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Ge0rG
Wiktor: please send me a message with your desired username (Wiktor?) and your email address for the password delivery.
MattJ
Looks like I lost my privileges after the great wiki disaster of 2017 :/
jonasw
s/wiki //
jonasw
actually, the server was a tad late. it would’ve been a great fit for '16
Maranda
"great wiki disaster" :O
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Ge0rG
Wiktor: The current content of Tech_pages/XEP-0368 is very raw. It would be great if you could also add some structture :)
jonasw
anyone a suggestion for a wiki page name for that bookmark autojoin discussion?
Wiktor
Yep I noticed that, I need to reformat it anyway as some sections (like SRV records) would be the same for all methods.
Ge0rG
like maybe an intro sentence what the page is about, an auto-generated TOC and then headings for different implementations / common settings
Ge0rG
jonasw: Easy Bookmarks™
jonasw
and add a link to it on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/SRV_Records
jonasw
Ge0rG, asking to be sure, do you have the power to move pages? :>
Wiktor
SRV Records must be extended with xmpps-client too
Wiktor
well, a little bit more work than I anticipated but it's do-able :)
the inverted highlighting of poezio really leads to low contrast
jonasw
I turned it off for that reason
jonasw
you want my irssi theme
Ge0rG
jonasw: I'm not sure I do.
jonasw
/theme irssi
Ge0rG
I'm always very hesitant to change themes.
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Link Mauve
jonasw, would you be ok with merging it upstream?
jonasw
Link Mauve, didn’t I already?
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Link Mauve
Oh right, indeed it’s there.
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ThibG
Hi, I was looking at XEP-0333 as I was under the impression that it was the preferred way to synchronize state between XMPP clients.
ThibG
But after reading it I'm pretty convinced this is not a great way to do it, as it requires sending such state to the recipients, as the “Security Considerations” section already points out
Kev
XEP 333's not good for synchronising state between your own clients, no. Only for sending markens back to the sender (and I'm not convinced it's great for that either).
Zash
And I'm pretty sure you can do 80% of that using chatstates and receipts :)
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ThibG
Chatstates and receipts have similar issues 🙂
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ThibG
Anyway, I was wondering if there is a better XEP out there for synchronizing such state?
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jonasw
ThibG, no, but the question comes up regularly
Zash
ThibG: What exactly do you want to sync and between what?
Kev
Which state are we talking about in this case?
Kev
Unread markers?
ThibG
yeah
Kev
I have a model for how we do that, which I discuss briefly in bind2.
Zash
*your own* unread state?
ThibG
Yes, your own unread state
Kev
But there are still more parts needed. If you need this Now, I suggest the best thing is to store the most recent read messages for each contact in PIP, and go from there. It's not perfect, but it'll do.
Zash
Yeah, Kev had ideas for that
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ThibG
I don't “need this Now”, it's just that it's a pain having multiple clients and having notifications for messages I have already read. I was looking for a XEP to implement in clients, but guess I'll wait
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Kev
I think you generally don't really want to know what's read, but what's unread, and that needs the cooperation of the archive.
jonasw
ThibG, if the clients send chat markers, it should work. some clients send, but ignore inbound chat markers, so you might have a chance there. at least for some cases.
Kev
Well, s/needs/is easiest done/
Kev
jonasw: I think Chat Markers for this is very nearly the worst possible approach ):
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Kev
I think the PIP approach is mostly workable, but not great, and the cooperation of the archive approach is best, but probably a little way of.
Kev
s/of\./off./
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ThibG
jonasw, it works when the clients send chat markers, right. But it requires telling the recipient what you have read and what you haven't, which you might not want to do.
jonasw
yeah
ThibG
Also, the XEP advises against sending them if the recipient doesn't advertise support for it
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Kev
And it requires your archive saving markers, which it probably won't, and your client querying MAM back to find all the last read markers for your conversations, which you also probably don't want to do.
ThibG
And most clients respect that, so the synchronisation depends on what the recipient supports 😕
Kev
I'm sure it's possible to come up with a worse mechanism for solving this problem, but I think it'd require some amount of creativity.
jonasw
ThibG, do they? I’d advise clients to ignore that and send always.
ThibG
jonasw, yeah, Dino and Conversations at least seem to respect that
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ThibG
Kev, got your point
Kev
:)
jonasw
I think conversations wanted to move to ignore that at some point. but I may misremember.
Holger
ThibG: Really? So this would only work while the recipient is online?
Holger
ThibG: Conversations even adds a <store/> hint to make this work for offline recipients.
ThibG
hm
Holger
I agree this is a mess, but I don't see we have anything better to offer right now.
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Kev
Holger: I think my PIP suggestion is better Right Now, albeit unspecced.
Kev
At least, I don't think there's a XEP for it. I remember writing this down a while back.
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Holger
What was PIP again?
Guus
harhar. I'm working on a bug that's caused by a client falling for the good old "Are you there?" -"No!" joke.
Holger
Anyway I meant we have no better standard solution, of course. I can easily imagine better non-standard ones :-)
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Kev
Private PEP.
Guus
(ping got responded to with an error, which didn't prevent a timeout)
Kev
(223)
Zash
PIP, PEP, POP, is there a PAP?
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intosi
PAP and CHAP.
intosi
But only in a PPP context ;)
jonasw
PEAP?
Zash
And PUP
Holger
Kev: Ah so nothing non-standard on the server side.
intosi
Acronym creators were probably on PCP.
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Kev
Holger: I think you can do something that's a usable stopgap with only 223 on the server, yes.
Kev
But it's significantly less good than doing it properly.
Holger
Yup, I see.
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ThibG
Holger, ok so the thing is the sender needs to set the message as “markable” for read markers to be issued, so if the person you're conversing with doesn't do it, you don't have synchronized state…
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Holger
ThibG: Ah right, I was thinking of the previous step, doing service disco to decide whether to set "markable" (#5.2), which assumes the recipient to be online and doesn't cope with multiple devices.
Holger
ThibG: But your step is the relevant one here, yes. Still I think you could just issue markers no matter whether markable was set.
Kev
Server devs: How hard is it for you to do magic based on pubsub nodes?
Zash
Define magic
jonasw
Kev, xep 400?
Kev
e.g. how hard is it for you to do something when something is pushed to a specific node?
jonasw
eh
jonasw
XEP 0398
Kev
Yes, something like 398.
Zash
Kev: It Depends™
Zash
But can be easy
Kev
I'm pondering writing a XEP for unread-sync based on PIP, and defining additional magic that the server can do to make it more useful.
jonasw
please feature that magic and make it a MUST when the feature is available. I hate nothing more than having to infer whether a server does a thing or not
Kev
It's not the perfect protocol for doing it, but it would mean clients could get going with something Right Now, and as servers support it they'd gain the additional niceness.
jonasw
except that e.g. prosody still doesn’t have PIP.
Zash
There's plugins for Prosody that syncs the nickname and avatar nodes with the vcard
It's possible to make nodes private from the inside in the newer pubsub code, if somewhat verbose.
Dave Cridland
Lacking context, but if that's does Openfire do persistent PEP, then yes, of course.
Kev
No, it was can you do magic like 398?
jonasw
Dave Cridland, it’s whether it can do private PEP with publish-options assertions
Kev
I'm pondering writing another XEP that does magic when something is published to a particular PIP node.
Dave Cridland
Hmmm. 398?
Kev
vcard/PEP avatar magic.
Holger
No problem to implement in ejabberd (there's a publish event), just not sure I like such magic nodes.
Kev
Just 'can you hook code onto publishes to a particular node and/or would it be prohibitive?'.
Holger
Maybe I do.
Dave Cridland
Oh. I don't think so. Guus would know for sure. But I don't think we have hooks.
Kev
I don't mean user-facing hooks, I just mean for Server Features, if that helps.
Kev
Holger: I'm just pondering whether speccing something that isn't perfect protocol, but achieves the right result and lets client implement Right Now and still mostly work before servers are there is preferable to waiting forever for supporting the perfect protocol.
Kev
I quite like magic nodes, FWIW, as long as the magic is additional, rather than transforming the behaviour of the node.
Guus
waitwhat?
Guus
I know nothing!
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Guus
we have no API hooks specific for Pubsub that I'm aware of. We do have generic stanza interceptors.
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Holger
Kev: Yes, sounds good to me. I think 🙂
Holger
Kev: But if it works too well, nobody will ever implement the perfect protocol!
Guus
Holger, you're wrong. Implementation available here: https://github.com/kelseyhightower/nocode
Holger
:-)
Kev
Holger: Yes, I'm suggesting we never do the perfect protocol, we just get the perfect* features.
Zash
As part of this, what if the server makes it such that clients don't join MUCs, but the account does.
Kev
That is needed for this to work for MUCs, yes.
Zash
This general "make it work, not make it perfect" thing
jonasw
Zash, I’m still confused how a client is supposed to know what to do with those type="groupchat" messages and MUC-related presences it is suddenly getting.
Zash
jonasw: It doesn't get those unless it joins rooms.
jonasw
Zash, how is the "account" joined then?
Zash
jonasw: Server sees you attempting to join a room, drops that and sends a join from the bare account jid instead.
Kev
So, you know, one step closer to MIX.
Zash
And makes a note "this session joined that room"
jonasw
Zash, who profits from that change?
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Kev
jonasw: Anyone who doesn't want problems with dupes. Especially archive-based stuff like unread sync.
jonasw
how does this handle s2s interruptions?
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Zash
jonasw: People who are annoyed by quitjoins. Eaiser to have groupchats in user archives. Users get faster join sync.
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Zash
When a second client joins, it simply serves locally cached room state back and makes a note that that session is also interested in that room.
jonasw
makes sense
Zash
Oh and it keeps local room state on the server.
jonasw
I might like this more than MIX, except for the still present abuse of resources.
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jonasw
Zash, but how does it cope when the s2s link to the MUC service is broken/the MUC service fails and restarts without state/…
Zash
In theory, one could evolve this into a compat layer for having MUC clients in future MIX channels,
jonasw
those conditions where clients nowadays rejoin after a ping timed out or they got an error back or something like that
Zash
jonasw: Badly, I guess. Still a hacky PoC stage
Zash
jonasw: Doesn't even handle anyone leaving :)
Kev
I think the resync is going to hurt with this MUC stuff though.
Zash
It already hurts.
Kev
Because unlike MIX it's not clear how you connect with a client to a MUC that your account's already joined.
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Zash
Kev: The server handles it and sends you the room state from a local cache.
Zash
MUC clients shouldn't notice anything different
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Zash
I guess Ge0rG is correct in this being basically a bouncer.
jonasw
yeah
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Zash
So it gets all the client problems, except those that relate to connection issues to the server :)
Kev
Yeah, but you're getting a lot more work on the server than the server support in MIX.
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moparisthebest
which is great if nothing else has to change and you get 100% backwards compatibility, right?
Zash
I'm not sure which would be more work at this point, haven't been able to read the entire MIX spec yet.
Zash
I've got something half-working that can be tested to see if it's worth the trouble. Why I called it a hacky proof of concept :)
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Kev
I think you end up doing the same amount of work, for something that still has issues.
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pep.
Ge0rG: re CSI/MUC messages, is there any case of messages being processed by the server already? I'm not fond of the "mention" bit. Also you need to define it, it can mean lots of things nowadays with fancy new IMs solutions out there, @everyone, @here, @channel and whatnots
Kev: Doing something that (partially) works now tends to be more rewarding than something that has to wait, in this case for MIX to become stable and implemented.
moparisthebest
Kev, but most importantly, 100% backwards compat, and work *only* on the user's server, rather than on all clients, all servers, and all mix components
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moparisthebest
did anyone make that Wiktor guy a wiki account?
Kev
I'm not sold.
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Zash
I'm a terrible sales person.
moparisthebest
so of the mythical MIX server components that are done, which of them have backwards compatibility with MUC ?
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moparisthebest
because if not, they are a non-starter
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moparisthebest
for example when would xsf@muc.xmpp.org switch over?
Guus
moparisthebest : who's "wictor"?
MattJ
moparisthebest, pretty sure my opinion is in the minority, but I see MUC and MIX serving different use-cases, and I don't necesarily feel that all MUCs must switch over
MIX feels like a not-so-great model for the average support group chat
Zash
moparisthebest: I think Ge0rG dealt with the wiki
Guus
I didn't see that. He does not appear to have an account now
Guus
Do we have his contact details?
ThibGhas left
Guus
email?
jonasw
Guus, ask Ge0rG
Zash
MattJ: How do you feel about a account-based MUC join module? Useful or hack that will haunt us forever?
Guus
Ge0rG?
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moparisthebest
MattJ, I mean the situation with muc on multi-client but especially phones isn't great, if mix can't replace muc and fix that forever I don't see a point
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Kev
I'm not sure why it can't.
ThibGhas joined
Kev
And you can add basic MIX on top of MUC fairly straightforwardly.
moparisthebest
well one reason is it's been years and no one has implemented anything but a tiny part with no muc compatibility
moparisthebest
I'm just solidly with Zash here, running code that works *now* is the way to go, vs duke nukem forever code that might be better in the future
Kev
We've not got the spec right for showing how straightforward these concepts are yet, and I think that's a part of why there's limited adoption.
Kev
But we'll get there.
Zash
And I'm not saying this will solve all problems. I just wanna know how useful this hack I made is.
Kev
I don't think there's anything that stops hacks on MUC now to make it better. I'm not sold that it can actually solve everything fully without essentially becoming MIX>
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Kev
Which, at its core, is largely just about less overloaded addressing and presence semantics.
moparisthebest
while that might be true, it doesn't need to solve everything, perfect is the enemy of good
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jonasw
moparisthebest, crude hacks is what got us into the carbons/mam mess though
moparisthebest
is it better with them as crude hacks or before when multi-device was useless?
jonasw
better, but also still bad
jonasw
in a different way though
jonasw
if we had went with XMPP2 routing/addressing right away, things might’ve been much better.
STARTLS would never have been a thing in any protocol either
Zash
Kev: Small steps are easier to take than large ones
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Ge0rG
Zash: you shouldn't use the bare JID, I think. Rather have one uuid per nickname
Kev
I think the Best thing to do is write a MUC layer on top of MIX, but in the short term it works to write a MIX layer on top of MUC. Implementation-wise.
pep.
jonasw, I don't think "all joins and parts to MUCs are synced on all devices" is a "simple" default case :P
pep.
(reading that wiki page)
jonasw
pep., for the user, I think so
jonasw
mind that most people won’t be joining things like xmpp@ but instead having group chats with their family and coworkers etc.
pep.
May be a default use-case, but it's not that simple, judging by the discussion on the list :p
jonasw
it’s simple to do as long as we don’t need the second one :)
jonasw
and it’s also simpler than the second one regarding the amout of state which needs to be kept
pep.
How can I use bookmarks as dumb JID list in all that?
pep.
Do I _have to_ use the syncing stuff
jonasw
pep., add that dump jid list thing
jonasw
on the protocol level: just without autojoin
pep.
yes, I just want a dumb list that I can access across all devices
pep.
hmm, I don't like the priority assumptions on that list
pep.
Where do I put my thing
jonasw
pep., not sure
jonasw
between the two I think
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pep.
The thing is that it directly conflicts with the autojoin feature some wants
pep.
And I'm sure I'll have to patch most of the "modern" apps to do as I want
pep.
Fun(tm)
MattJ
pep., enlighten me, what is the autojoin feature some want?
pep.
Sync the state across devices
MattJ
Ok
Zash
Which state?
MattJ
Joined/not joined
pep.
Say if autojoin is set to true, the channel is joined on every device, if autoset is false, don't join, or leave the channel on all devices
moparisthebest
I don't like that because I have huge channels I only want to be joined to on my desktop, not my phone
pep.
moparisthebest, yeah that's another concern and it's being talked about on the ML
MattJ
moparisthebest, as already discussed, it doesn't mean you can't have that
MattJ
It's already been discussed to death on the mailing list
moparisthebest
then I have no objections :)
pep.
I just don't want this syncing being done _at all_ across my devices, huge channels or not
moparisthebest
I agree in general it would be nice
MattJ
pep., then you just don't set autojoin, it's simple
moparisthebest
just with the ability to override
MattJ
Negotiate with your client devs :)
pep.
MattJ, no, not with what's being said. If I don't set autojoin clients would leave the channel
pep.
If I understand correctly. And that's an issue
Ge0rG
I'm still waiting for someone to show me a well-designed MUC join dialog/UI that nicely abstracts semi-autojoin
pep.
semi-autojoin?
MattJ
Ge0rG, join room from client as normal -> "also join on other devices? yes/no"?
Ge0rG
Kev: my gut feeling is that the server-side MUC bouncer will solve 90% of today's problems with MUC, making it good enough™
pep.
Ge0rG, isn't that MUC bouncer called MAM?
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Ge0rG
MattJ: "also join on: [ ] Desktop [X] Mobile [...]"
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MattJ
Please no
Zash
What about tags?
MattJ
Gaaaaah!
pep.
Zash, "also join on: [ ] Desktop [X] Mobile [...]" ?
pep.
:P
Kev
Ge0rG: Of course, MUC solving 90% of problems already is the reason for not bothering to fix it.
Ge0rG
MattJ: so it would add a bookmark on success, and set the bookmark's autojoin depending on your choice, and set local autojoin accordingly?
Zash
Like, roster groups. Tag with whatever you want. Make your client autojoin based on that.
jonasw
Zash, now
jonasw
*no
Ge0rG
Kev: MUC is solving 90% of the problems we had in 2002.
jonasw
Zash, adding semantics to roster groups seems like bad
MattJ
Ge0rG, the way I see it, any sensible client maintains a local (persistent) list of rooms it is currently joined to
Zash
jonasw: That's not what I said.
Ge0rG
MattJ: good luck matching that list against three sets of remote bookmarks.
jonasw
Zash, so two disticnt set of tags, one for determining whether to join and one to show to the user? :(
Zash
jonasw: Could be tags/categories in the current bookmarks.
MattJ
Ge0rG, that can't be helped...
jonasw
Ge0rG, îtym one set, because any sensible library will abstract that away from you :)
Ge0rG
MattJ: what you just proposed is the technical background. I'm interested in designing the transition UI for adding a MUC to any of the lists, or moving a MUC between them
MattJ
Ge0rG, I already said
MattJ
> 13:44:18 MattJ> Ge0rG, join room from client as normal -> "also join on other devices? yes/no"?
As layed out in Guus e-mail there are some things we should discuss w.r.t. our financials.
ralphm
He asked a few questions:
ralphm
1) What are our sources of funds, other than sponsors?
2) Who are our sponsors?
3) Are we properly treating our sponsors? If not, how do we improve?
4) How do we safe-guard the proces of collecting funds?
ralphm
On 1) I think we can be pretty clear: none right now
Guus
did we ever have?
ralphm
What we have done in the past is sell hoodies/t-shirts, but never as a way to make money
nyco
1) we can ask for public donations
ralphm
more to cover costs around the XMPP Summit / FOSDEM
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nyco
2)3) we need to map the sponsors journey
Guus
ralphm, although I didn't think of that, I do agree with your definition of that.
nyco
1) oh gooodies, of course, but the same questions goes on and on: who's gonna take it? how do we follow up and control? etc.
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Guus
I'm ok with not having a different source of income than sponsors, by the way. 1) was just to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
ralphm
2) I believe, but I don't have information from stpeter, is that we have two active sponsors, right now: Erlang Solutions, Inc. and USSHC, with the latter only in hardware
nyco
1) can donations be automated by any third-party platform?
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Guus
2) is where things get a bit awkward. We're listing sponsors on our website that do not seem to exist (as an organisation) anymore.
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ralphm
Yes
nyco
2) a cleanup needs to be applied, indeed
MattJ
and that is also unfair to people who are actually sponsors (and would discourage new ones)
ralphm
I note that I didn't include the FOSDEM/Summit sponsors, because those are different in that respect
nyco
2) we can already remove the stopped and renamed companies, can't we?
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Guus
Mattj, that's a concern that I had, which is why I added 3) to my list of questions.
nyco
FOSDEM/Summit is punctal
nyco
s/punctal/punctual
Guus
did we ever check if other sponsors than the ones just listed by Ralph indeed stopped sponsoring?
Guus
Or did we stop collecting money from them, without them actively pulling out?
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nyco
how can we check that? on the bak account logs?
ralphm
https://xmpp.org/community/sponsorship.html lists our current process, and we're mostly abiding by that
nyco
I know for a fact that ESL remains a sponsor (disclaimer: I used to work for them)
Guus
I'm assuming, but do not know for certain, that our Treasurer would know.
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ralphm
Guus: sponsorship is a for a limited term (1 year), there's no automatic renewal
Guus
ralphm, ok, that's fair. In that case, I feel that we should explicitly ask for a renewal, each year.
nyco
the renewal should be re-processed by humans at the same date each year, yes I know it is easy to say 😉
ralphm
Guus: agreed
nyco
when?
Guus
as I wrote in my mail - we're not a for-profit organisation, but having some funds at hand can help us greatly.
nyco
January?
nyco
Then we use the FOSDEM to followup and close
ralphm
“Sponsorship applies on a calendar-year basis. Sponsor funds received in the middle of the calendar year shall be pro-rated accordingly.”
ralphm
So I think that maybe December is more appropriate?
Guus
I'd like to propose that we reach out to our old sponsors to see if they are willing to renew for this year.
Guus
(and do again so in December, for next year)
MattJ
Which would make it a good task to add to the list for newly-elected Boards :)
nyco
agree
ralphm
+1 on Guus' motion
Guus
MattJ, I'd prefer to task our Treasurer with this (or an ExOfficer), not Board.
MattJ
+1
ralphm
.
MattJ
I really mean that Board needs to make sure this happens
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Guus
ok
Guus
Shall I work with Peter on this?
MattJ
Ideally all sponsorship stuff is handled by a single person, it's easier
ralphm
Agreed
Guus
meh, bus-factor.
Guus
but a single person is better than no person 🙂
MattJ
As long as it's documented, it shouldnt matter
MattJ
Right now we're in a fairly unclear situation
ralphm
Indeed
Guus
I'll talk to Treasurer to get sponsorships renewed.
Guus
let's move to the next item.
jjrh
is anyone a titanium sponsor?
nyco
as MattJ says, can it be documented?
MattJ
jjrh, currently I think the answer is safely 'no'
nyco
titatium is sooo outdated, it's vibranium now...
Guus
documentation seems sensible.
nyco
lightweight is ok
Zash
Go straight for unobtainium
nyco
hehehe
Guus
Ralph, you still with us?
ralphm
yes
ralphm
3. GDPR
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ralphm
This an interesting topic.
Guus
(ping jonasw)
jonasw
I’m here
jonasw
but maybe not for long
Guus
I think the XSF looking into this could be helpful to the community
jonasw
(ping pep., Ge0rG, too)
ralphm
I am not aware (because I'm not involved) in IETF efforts around this.
ralphm
aware of
Guus
I also think it's important to explicitly state that this is at best advice, and indemnify ourselves
Ge0rG
What kind of advice should the XSF provide?
pep.
!
ralphm
Given agenda item 2, I'm not sure if we are in position to sponsor a lawyer, FWIW.
jonasw
Ge0rG, https://trello.com/c/t79C3Yds/307-gdpr-advice for example
Ge0rG
The GDPR is an interesting topic indeed. I'm working in a company full of GDPR consultants, so I can get things addressed.
nyco
that would still be awesome
pep.
Ge0rG, that would be awesome, please do
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Ge0rG
pep.: however, they are all at 120% capacity due to commercial clients asking for GDPR advice.
pep.
Yeah it's going to get packed for the following months/year
Ge0rG
Yup.
pep.
People realizing it's time
nyco
plenty of resources are already available, it's a matter of taking the time to process those, and peer-review
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Ge0rG
I suppose the advice will turn out as something like (a) have a ToS / data policy. (b) let the user explicitly accept that (c) no idea for contacts' data
winfried
Ge0rG: I have also a bit knowledge about the GDPR, I can jump in here too
jonasw
Ge0rG, the federation aspect is the key issue here, local service can be solved with ToS as you mention.
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jjrh
GDPR == General Data protection Regulation?
Ge0rG
winfried: I'm trying to gather inputs for a data protection policy for yax.im, but please see what jonas said
jonasw
jjrh, yes
pep.
We can also get ideas from email providers
Guus
Ge)rG, winfried, jonasw, can you guys sit together and come up with either a sensible bit of information that applies to XMPP usage, or with specific questions to Board, if you need anything from them?
I am not a lawyer. The most practical advise I can give is 1) get a lawyer, 2) document what data your own service collects and why, the definition of Personal Data is pretty broad and includes things like (indirect) identifiers. 3) Establish policies around retention and deletion of that data.
Guus
jonasw, I've seen them, thanks.
jonasw
and I think they cover our most important issues
Ge0rG
jonasw: do you think the Board can answer those?
jonasw
Ge0rG, no, but what other type of questions could we bring to board?
jonasw
ralphm, yeah, no (1) is basically "turn off your free service because of cost"
Ge0rG
jonasw: "will you pay for a GDPR consultant / lawyer to answer ... ?"
jonasw
Ge0rG, okay, that then ;-)
nyco
agreed with ralphm, I feel like a layer would do better, faster, stronger...
jonasw
Ge0rG, can you get an employee discount on those consultations? ;-)
winfried
Guus goof for me
ralphm
jonasw: I'm pretty sure that not complying with the GDPR will put you back further
Ge0rG
jonasw: I can try to schedule them into the lunch break
jonasw
ralphm, that’s why I said "turn off"
pep.
jonasw, Ge0rG, I'm also interested if it's in a language I can comprehend
ralphm
jonasw: but yeah, I'm not saying it is great
Ge0rG
jonasw: I assume that getting a proper report on those use cases will inevitably cause multiple thousands of EURs of expenses.
winfried
I suggest jonasw Ge0rG and I stick together and make an inventarisation of what to do
jonasw
"yay"
Ge0rG
what winfried said
jonasw
okay, that sounds sane
pep.
I want in
jonasw
we can handle that either here or in xmpp@ maybe?
jonasw
I’d like to avoid yet another muc ;-)
jonasw
I’ll start by translating my notes from the talk I heard a few weeks ago
ralphm
I think this venue is as good as any
winfried
+1
Ge0rG
just not during Board meeting?
winfried
Ge0rG: exact
ralphm
Right
ralphm
I guess that's it for now.
ralphm
4. AOB
Guus
To be clear: you guys will be working on finding out if there's generic advise (more precise than 'get a lawyer') that the XSF can give to server operators?
ralphm
Didn't see any
Guus
AOB I had feedback from peter on the bank account / bus factor thingy
ralphm
And?
Guus
I've added it to https://trello.com/c/yNLDp6Xt/297-answer-peters-email-on-bus-factor-for-bank-account
MattJ
There's an open card about the membership survey.. sorry it's lagging, but I can send out an email to board@ with my current draft for us to bash before next week's meeting
Guus
I've also talked to the Secretary, who is willing to help.
jonasw
Guus, I think it’ll be more of an collection of things in the GDPR you absolutely HAVE TO look at
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MattJ
As in, we can spend a week bashing it, so we can make some concrete decisions in the next meeting
Guus
my preference on the bus thing is do 1, not 2, from Peters options.
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Guus
(and have Alex as the co-signer)
Guus
can we vote on that, or do you guys need more time to read up on that?
ralphm
I'm ok with both 1 and 2
Guus
I prefer not to do 2
nyco
I have no opinion
ralphm
That's not a valid choice
nyco
3
ralphm
I think it would be good to think about these options and decide our direction next week.
https://trello.com/c/sBcxZrGZ/299-plan-and-organise-a-meeting-for-board-prios is not going to happen.
Guus
we're postponing it for weeks now.
Guus
let's archive this, and move on
nyco
I am waiting for answer since weeks now
nyco
I can't schedule
Guus
that's what I mean: there's no progress on this. We're three months in our tenure.
Guus
and we're having other stuff being blocked by this.
nyco
rather than postpone it, it would be nice that everyone answers
Guus
I'm not asking for postponement, I'm asking for it to not happen, and be removed from our Trello board. I've been doing that for a couple of meetings, each time that was responded to with 'lets see next week'.
Guus
sadly, todays meeting was gaveled off already.
Guus
I will, however, motion this again next week. I strongly feel that we should move forward.
winfried
jonasw Ge0rG pep. can we make an appointment for the GDPR discussion? I have to leave now.
jonasw
winfried, sure
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jonasw
I’m probably the most flexible of all of us, so I’ll let you sort it out. saturday night and tomorrow between 10:00 and 14:00Z won’t work for me, otherwise I can probably arrange most things.
jonasw
(and no wednesdays)
Ge0rG
winfried: I prefer 0800Z to 1500Z on workdays.
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winfried
Tomorrow 1300UTC?
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Ge0rG
winfried: 👍
jonasw
nooo
jonasw
that’s exactly in the time frame I opted out
Ge0rG
jonasw: your message was TLDR :P
jonasw
m(
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winfried
jonasw: oops, didn't read well...
jonasw
seriously though, taht’s not going to work for me :)
winfried
monday march 26 at 10:00 UTC?
jonasw
winfried, wfm
Ge0rG
10:00 UTC will be 12:00 CEST after the DST change, right?
winfried
*hmpf*
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winfried
9:00 UTC will work for mee too :-P
pep.
Worksforme
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winfried
so it is: monday march 26 at 10:00 UTC this muc
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winfried
btw jonasw, good questions on the trello board
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winfried
See you monday!
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Guus
Jonasw, i'm tempted to remove the related card from the Board board, until there's something for board to act on
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Guus
do you see reason to keep it on there?
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Ge0rG
Guus: please keep it for documentation purposes.
Ge0rG
Guus: also in case the GDPR-SIG dissolves prior to providing results
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Guus
The board process is convoluted enough, without acting as an archive 🙂
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Ge0rG
somebody™ could move the questions to the wiki, then
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Guus
Ge0rG, not that arching a card does not delete it
Guus
it's still referable by URL
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Ge0rG
Guus: ah, then I retract my objections
Guus
now archived: https://trello.com/c/t79C3Yds/307-gdpr-advice#
flow
I wonder if bookmarks2 shouldn't rename autojoin to no-autojoin. Isn't the common case that I want to join the MUC I bookmarked?
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Ge0rG
flow: say what?
Ge0rG
boolean variables containing a negation are one of the worst things you can do in logic.
Ge0rG
`if (!no_autojoin) { WTF! }`
flow
Ok, then stick with autojoin but default to true
Ge0rG
flow: autojoin has a bunch of problems, but this one isn't it.
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flow
Ge0rG, I think sometimes those details are important
flow
If we give people the imression that you want to autojoin explicitly, while my use case is cleary that I want autojoin implicitly
Ge0rG
flow: okay, you are right.
Ge0rG
flow: we've had a discussion regarding proper autojoin-UX some hours ago. Feel free to scroll up
unless you count their hacky desktop proxied thing
flow
Ahh right, that's the thing about whatsapp
flow
but hangouts does, and I've never seen an autojoin option
flow
IIRC there is only a "mute notification" option
Ge0rG
flow: the change you propose is all about UX
MattJ
Yeah
flow
Ge0rG, I'm pretty sure it is about protocol design
Ge0rG
flow: it is about the default value for an option, influencing the UX
flow
only if you let it to, implementers could simply choose a different default
Ge0rG
flow: by saying "this option should be true by default" you imply a UX change. Better we discuss that
jonasw
Guus, feel free to remove
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flow
Ge0rG, I'm not implying an UX design. I just think that defaults should cover the common case and wanted to raise attention that I believe autojoin=true is the common case to start the discussion
pep.
jonasw, I guess I should start working on that EULA XEP as well
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Ge0rG
flow: I'd suggest to move the discussion to standards@, but unfortunately I haven't read up on that XEP yet myself
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dwd
MLS BOF occurring at IETF, BTW - probably relevant to most folks here.
Zash
Mmmmm, stream URL?
Ge0rG
acronym galore! /o\
dwd
Linked to from the IETF agenda, which I don't have to hand, but I reckon Google might know.
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Zash
Hm, not linked
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Tobias
mls@jabber.ietf.org
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dwd
Meetecho on http://www.meetecho.com/ietf101/mls/
dwd
(Should give audio and the jabber room, I think)
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dwd
Just audio on http://ietf101streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf1013.m3u
Zash
Thanks
Zash
meetecho wanted me to switch browsers
dwd
Yeah, it doesn't work on Lynx.
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Kev
On the topic of the GDPR, does the XSF itself need to do any work here?
Ge0rG
Kev: you mean regarding data stored by the XSF?
Zash
Not strictly, I guess.
Kev
I do.
Zash
Hm, how do MUCs such as this one relate to GDPR?
Zash
And mailing lists?
Zash
*That* is something the IETF and other standards orgs probably wanna find out about too.
dwd
Almost certainly.
moparisthebest
I would *think* whatever applies to email would apply to xmpp, and whatever applies to mailing lists would apply to muc? maybe?
Kev
And the wiki, which contains historical employment data, etc.
Ge0rG
Kev: So we need a data protection office who will remove all PII from the wiki upon request
dwd
I'll see if I can find out what the IETF are doing.
Kev
I'm not in a position to assert what we need, just asking for Board to confirm that we're doing whatever it is that we need to be doing :)
moparisthebest
it contains data on people who put the data there themselves and can remove it themselves right?
Kev
Presumably, and possibly. I have no idea what the GDPR's stance on any of this is.
jonasw
winfried, Ge0rG, you’re aware of the DST change in Europe this week which puts our meeting at 12:00 CEST?
Ge0rG
jonasw: I am
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winfried
I am
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jonasw
good :)
jonasw
Zash, this muc announces itself as publicly logged IIRC. this probably activates article 9 (2) (e) which means that the XSF is not liable even if I publicly talk about my sex life here. well, not liable w.r.t. GDPR at least.
jonasw
same goes for mailing lists etc
jonasw
the tricky part is with things which are supposedly private
winfried
Kev dwd we should check first if the XSF is subject to the GDPR
jonasw
Kev, and yeah, the wiki stuff is also covered by that I think
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Kev
winfried: That was my question.
moparisthebest
another person told me xmpp in general is fine because GDPR said you can use/send things that are required to do what the user expects, or something
moparisthebest
this again was not a lawyer
pep.
or something. Seems legit
moparisthebest
well I paraphrased :)
jonasw
moparisthebest, that’s not true if Article 9 (1) applies!
winfried
Registered in the US, not explicitly targeting EU citizens... I should reread the articles on it and check the WP 29 opinions before answering that one...
moparisthebest
but really, if email is ok, xmpp is ok, would EU have created a law banning email?
pep.
moparisthebest, who knows. Wasn't there something about git history as well?
moparisthebest
otherwise I guess all email/XMPP servers will have to move to non-EU places, and soft-ban EU people...
dwd
moparisthebest, Well. Maybe.
dwd
moparisthebest, They could easily have come up with a set of laws that means they have inadvertantly affected normal email use.
pep.
https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/24623/gdpr-git-history < for fun
winfried
moparisthebest jonasw I think XMPP is *generally* ok, but we must check all (edge) cases carefully before shouting anything
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moparisthebest
dwd, yea that's what I'm semi concerned about, wouldn't put it past politicians
Zash
If the politicians can't email anymore, then the thing will get fixed pretty fast :)
moparisthebest
from a high level overview, it seems like this legislation was squarely targeted at walled gardens, where these regulations would be simple to implement
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Zash
Compare roaming. Roaming affected EU MEPs pretty hard, since they went between Brussels, Strassburg and their home all the damn time.
Tobias
Zash, no..they'll just use FAX
Ge0rG
Zash: except that EU MEPs never see their phone bills
Zash
Sure they do
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Ge0rG
Zash: I bet they don't. Otherwise it wouldn't have taken a decade between the first iphone and the removal of roaming fees.
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Zash
Ask your MEPs
Ge0rG
Zash: they all have a business phone provided by the respective government.
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SaltyBones
Finally no roaming in Europe => Ze Germans are complaining that it took too long.
Ge0rG
SaltyBones: I hate the mobile ISP oligopoly, with a passion.
dwd
Anyone interested in reviewing MLS specs from here BTW?
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Tobias
dwd, you mean the XMPP adoption for it?
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, that's what jmp.chat is hoping to fix :) one day...
Zash
State teleco monopolies weren't all bad
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Ge0rG
Zash: oh really?
Ge0rG
Zash: you have examples for them not being bad?
Ge0rG
(Sweden doesn't count)
Zash
Ge0rG: How do you do emergency calls in the middle of nowhere?
moparisthebest
I dial 911 and then my android phone reboots
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Ge0rG
Zash: sometimes you can't, because of lack of coverage.
moparisthebest
and sometimes the 911 handling code is never tested and crashes
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moparisthebest
(this is a somewhat common problem...)
moparisthebest
smartphones! technology! yay! :'(
Ge0rG
Zash: the German ex-state monopolist is successively switching DSL connections from regular analog POTS to VoIP. In case of a power outage, you can't call the emergency any more.
jjrh
There are solutions for this like UPS's
jjrh
if you're going to replace someones POTS line this should be a requirement
Ge0rG
jjrh: it's not. they are. No UPS.
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jjrh
yeah I believe it - but it should be a requirement by law. power the modem/router and a PoE switch (or ata). It's a safety thing.
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jjrh
911 also needs a automated system to test 911 service - aka dial 811, and for the next 60 seconds you can dial 911 to test
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moparisthebest
yea that would be nice
moparisthebest
especially for testing if your android phone is one that'll crash :)
moparisthebest
pre-emergency
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jjrh
exactly - all sorts of situations really
Zash
Ge0rG: Back in the olden days, there was copper cable that went everywhere. Later, there was near 100% GSM coverage. Now, with whatever G number we're on, if you are outside major cities, good luck.
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jonasw
jjrh, that’d be a good thing indeed
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MattJ
unless you dialled 811 in an emergency situation :)
Zash
Imagine the RoI of covering hundreds ouf thousands of km² with coverage, when like three people live there.
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Zash
and less than 1 person per km²
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Ge0rG
Zash: you wanted me to tell about the benefits of formerly-state-owned telco monopolies.
Zash
Ge0rG: No, they suck.
fippo
ge0rg: they pay quite good salaries.
Zash
Ge0rG: Was better before the "former"
Ge0rG
Zash: the German former-state-monopoly is required to proive phone lines to _any_ address. RoI doesn't play any role there. But they are not required to proivde Internet connectivity, so there are still places where all you can get is either ISDN (64kbit/s with a per-minute fee) or something like 2mbit/s DSL
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Zash
Ge0rG: No idea if that is the case here (anymore)
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moparisthebest
or satellite Ge0rG ? (is that an option there)
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dwd
Interesting talk last night on satellite broadband, BTW.
dwd
Although I basically understood none of it.
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: you never used a sat link, did you?
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: you never used a sat link, did you?
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moparisthebest
Ge0rG, no but as I understand it, throughput is fine, but latency is awful
moparisthebest
still better than 64kbps dialup though right?
dwd
Lots of stuff on latency too. Short end of satellite is 12ms, which surprised me. (Longer end is 480ms, it mostly depends on the orbit choice).
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Zash
Further north you basically need polar orbits to get any coverage at all AFAIK
moparisthebest
non-equator orbit requires fuel and is really expensive right?
moparisthebest
it's been a long time since I read anything about it
Zash
Everything requires fuel
Zash
You benefit less from the earth already rotating in the general direction you want
Zash
Duno about exact differences
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: dialup has better latency, and bandwidth on most sat links is limited, so you pay per gigabyte
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Ge0rG
The "affordable" ones are equatorial, so you end up with 1s rtt, and the low orbit ones typically only offer very low bandwidth, and cost an arm and a leg
moparisthebest
and with dialup you can't download a gigabyte within an entire month so sat still sounds better :)
dwd
Well. Russia launches at around 42 degrees, as I recall, to avoid launch failures hitting China.
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moparisthebest
yea I was under the impression all affordable ones like for homes were equatorial
moparisthebest
and I guess that doesn't work too far north
moparisthebest
maybe, I don't really know
dwd
Well, hard to get a geostationary orbit anywhere but equatorial.
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Andrew Nenakhov
Geostationary orbit can't be not equatorial. If orbit has tilt and rotation period equals 24h it is called geosynchronous orbit
Andrew Nenakhov
Projection of such orbits on surface draws big 8-shaped traces
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jonasw
could probably feed that into The ONE
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Zash
The sun does something like that too iirc
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dwd
ANyone up for reviewing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid/ ? Basically using PubSub for incident management (crybersecurity incidents, really).
Ge0rG
dwd: is that used anywhere? My employer is very interested in cyber, and I'm very interested in jabber.
dwd
Ge0rG, It's early days, but there is a load of interest.
Zash
Is "cyber" still used?
Ge0rG
Last time I reviewed a cyber related xep it was horrible.
dwd
Ge0rG, This one got serious work from PSA, and looks sane to me.
jonasw
oh, PSA is at mozilla these days?
dwd
jonasw, Yes, but mostly doing W3C work currently.
jonasw
that’s a funny author list. A Pope and a Saint.
jonasw
> In SACM
jonasw
close!
Ge0rG
That's great
dwd
So XMPP-Grid is developed in MILE, since it has the simpler use-cases, but it's also being looked at closely in SACM, which is Security Assessment and Continuous Monitoring.
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dwd
I'm confused by (Americans?) saying JSON with the emphasis on the ON, and not pronouncing it like "Jason".
moparisthebest
I've always said jace like mace on on like, turn the light on
SamWhited
I think it goes both ways here; I hear both pretty often at least, not sure if it's a regional thing or not
moparisthebest
then again I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've spoken not typed JSON
moparisthebest
still not as bad as when I had to say lighttpd out loud without prep though
SamWhited
You mnean lie-tuh-tuh-puh-duh?
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SamWhited
mean, even.
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moparisthebest
more like light http... lie http..., look it's spelled like l-i-g-h-t-t-p-d
moparisthebest
nginx is another fun one, what's with web servers?
If we have MIX messages in MAM on both the MIX and the user's server, who's responsible for stanza ids?
jonasw
Ge0rG, both?
jonasw
stanza ids can have a from IIRC
jonasw
the attribute’s called @by
Ge0rG
How am I supposed to sync that mess in my client, then?
jonasw
always ask the MIX server, be happy.
Zash
While trying not to cry.
jonasw
(and use the stanza-id from the MIX server)
jonasw
I don’t quite get the point of duplicating the acrhive across the network, especially since I’m not sure whether the s2s issues are fully sorted out yet
Ge0rG
Create a separate table for M:N relationship between messages and their ids?
jonasw
Ge0rG, no, use the MIX stanza-ID for MIX messages, and your servers stanza ID for all other.
Ge0rG
jonasw: they aren't
jonasw
annotate (or figure out) which archive to query for each message type
jonasw
of course, that’s tricky depending on your archive model
jonasw
I’ll add that to the design consideraitons for the jabbercat archive
Ge0rG
jonasw: Hm. How am I supposed to query my server for "everything after MIX ID x"?
jonasw
not?
jonasw
you’d look at the last non-MIX message obviously. or you take the stanza-id from your servers archive from that MIX message
Ge0rG
But I'm supposed to ask my server when reconnecting?
jonasw
ask your server for what?
Ge0rG
My head just exploded.
jonasw
I’m not going to mop that up.
Zash
How about we fix the mess so we can finally have everything the users archive?
jonasw
-EPARSE
Zash
in
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Zash
Packetloss between brain and poezio
jonasw
Zash, fix the general issue that split brain conditions will always occur and/or specify proper syncing in MIX :-)
Zash
jonasw: s2s-smacks?
Zash
Or have one archive query the other?
jonasw
not sufficient for longer partitions.
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Zash
Or cry?
jonasw
the latter would work
jonasw
but that’s not specified anywhere
Zash
Does it need to?
Zash
And, is that what Matrix is supposed to be?
jonasw
it would be good to have that writetn down in MIX so that noone is surprised like "oh, we need to do that for things to work?"
Zash
And where's the blockchain?
jonasw
the blockchain is illegal now
Zash
Gooooood
jonasw
yeah, it made my day yesterday
Zash
Does that make git illegal too?
Ge0rG
Zash: no. Git will become illegal on May 25th
Zash
"By submitting patches, you realize that nothing can ever be truly deleted."
moparisthebest
s/submitting patches/using the internet/
moparisthebest
but no, EU will just legislate it away magically
Ge0rG
My questions regarding MIX were provoked by flow's mail
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: just stop bashing the EU. In the US of A, Zuck is playing the innocent while sitting on millions of data records he obtained illegally
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Zash
Wow. My current level of sleepyness and the length of that email are not friends.
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, illegally or that idiot users gave to him willingly?
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: illegally. In Germany it's illegal to collect PII without consent, and Facebook is profiling me despite me not having an account.
Zash
Wait how does the EU pass laws now?
moparisthebest
seems to me this GDPR business is creating more problems than anything it's solving
Zash
Don't they pass directives that countries are supposed to adapt?
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: it's mainly creating problems for people who think they can trade *my* data without restrictions
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, lol don't get me started on germany's dumb PII laws, for medical trials we need date of birth, that's illegal to collect in germany, however, it is legal to collect how many days old you are today, march 22nd, 2018
moparisthebest
what genious politician came up with that one?
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: data is like oil. If you spill it, somebody else has to pay millions to clean the mess
Kev, yeah, but a lot of things we do can’t be expressed with XML schemas easily
Kev
Ah. You mean a schema that is capable of expressing the normative text, rather than a way of expressing that the schema is normative.
Kev
I think.
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
that’s what I meant.
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Kev
As you were.
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Ge0rG
So we would be just one step away from implementing the protocol code right from the XEP? Yay!
Kev
Oh, good call, we can express the schema through C++.
Kev
Result.
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jonasw
I wonder whether a specialized XML Schema variant (re-using the scalar types, but re-doing all the complex type stuff) would make sense.
pep.
I remember Link Mauve actually thinking about that for a while for https://hg.linkmauve.fr/xmpp-parsers, having some macro with a DSL to generate the code for the parsers :-°
jonasw
Zash, the more I think about it, the more it seems that having the users server sync the archive from the MIX server is the way to go, *iff* we want to have the users server have a copy of that archive at all.
Zash
jonasw: That would work for MUC+MAM too.
jonasw
yeah
jonasw
simplifies things
jonasw
for the client anyways
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jonasw
Zash, have you checked mentally whether that fits with prosodys model of $date-$uid archive stanza IDs?
Ge0rG
Just replace direct messaging with a MAM subscription and you are done.
Zash
Having to query MUC-MAMs is somewhat messy
Zash
jonasw: That's not Prosodys model. That's my NIH'd "I don't like databases" database.
flow
jonasw, that, but I wonder if MAM should get an overhaul
Zash
jonasw: Prosody itself doesn't know or care about that.
jonasw
Zash, okay.
jonasw
Zash, that still leaves my question though :)
jonasw
flow, that sounds awful.
jonasw
what would you change?
Zash
jonasw: The storage API is just (user, suggested-id, stanza, ...) → (id)
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flow
I know it is a senstive topic, but given the recent discussions about MAM syncing I started looking into prior art
Zash
The idea being that the storage driver might use the ID you want it to, or might need to pick its own.
Kev
I'm not sure that MAM needs an overhaul other than ripping the config stuff into its own XEP (which is just editing), and ensuring we can fill holes.
Kev
(And we can fill holes, and we have code that works, but people seem to be dead set on believing we don't for some reason, so we might have to tweak the spec)
flow
i'm actually not sure *what* I would change, but I have some ideas
jonasw
flow, drop them on standards@?
jonasw
I still need to process your MIX mail though
Zash
jonasw: Does one archive subscribing to another prevent it from making up new IDs?
Kev
The biggest thing that MAM needs is to be based on XMPP 2 routing rules for its archiving, I think.
flow
probably, but first I'd like to look if JID hiding in MIX could be made optional
flow
and if the overall MIX thingy can be made simpler
jonasw
Zash, no, but if you bulk fetch messages it could get weird
Zash
jonasw: How?
Kev
I need to reply to flow's MIX mail, but I'd quite like to swap all of the current 369 document into my head first. I understand the design, but don't know what words we've got to describe it.
jonasw
Zash, if MAM has a guarantee on being in timestamp order, you’d need to backfill at the appropriate places
Zash
jonasw: Ohglob
Zash
jonasw: That messes things up :|
Kev
flow: I think MIX *is* pretty simple, but I think we've somehow made it sound complicated despite this.
jonasw
flow, as long as MIX doesn’t fall back to what MUC does with that /resource-as-nickname "abuse", I’m probably fine with it
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jonasw
Zash, thought so. welcome to the struggles clients face :)
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flow
Kev, the question is not if it is simple, but if it can be made simpler (without loosing functionality)
Kev
And I'm not convinced that the JID hiding is actually significantly complex, it's just one indirection lookup.
Kev
Although it was me who was pushing for not having semi-anonymous (in xep45 terms) MIXs at all, but the Summit was very clear that this is a required feature.
flow
I sense that it's a controversial feature
SamWhited
I think it's a required feature, but I don't see why it has to be tightly coupled with MIX…
SamWhited
It could be some other XEP that comes later and isn't specific to MIX.
Kev
It seems like that's true, but I don't think it is.
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Zash
So what abstract model should MAM be based on?
Kev
It would be if we were talking about fully-anonymous(fully-pseudonymous) rooms, but for the semi- model I think it does need fairly tight coupling.
jonasw
what is the use-case for semi-anon as compared to fully-anon though?
SamWhited
As long as the MIX service is still the thing issuing the semi-anon identities it can be publishing a mapping into nodes that only the admins can read.
Kev
We've coped with this level of indirection in MUC for years and other than that we got the pseudonymous JIDs wrong, I don't think it's been a significant barrier to entry to anyone.
Kev
jonasw: The usual public MUC where you don't want people to start spamming each other, but you do want sensible moderation.
jonasw
Kev, which part of moderation requires semi-anon?
Kev
Anything that involves knowing who you're moderating?
Kev
Anyway, it's late and I'm shattered, so I'm going to pick MIX up again in the morning. NN folks.
jonasw
Kev, why do you need to know?
jonasw
affiliations (speaking in MUC terms) could be mapped by the MUC service. e.g. if I say /ban kevins%proxy@jid, the service would translate that to "ban kevins@actual.jid" and would enforce that
Zash
You can already ban and stuff via nickname, so ... I'm too tired to have any idea of what you are talking about
jonasw
you can’t ban via nickname
jonasw
if your client allows that it is racy
jonasw
(maybe not racy; but at least the client does the nickname->real jid lookup)
Zash
Full-anon MUCs must work like that tho
jonasw
are there full-anon MUCs?
Zash
... No
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Ge0rG
So what you want is to tell the service "ban this nickname" and it will ban the user's real JID without ever exposing it to the MUC owner.
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jonasw
Ge0rG, yeah
jonasw
except that I wouldn’t use nicknames in MIX but the proxy JIDs
jonasw
in MUC that wouldn’t work because of the inherent race condition
jonasw
(I send "ban X", my link is slow, in the meantime X leaves and another person accidentally also called X joins)
Zash
Is it kicks in MUC that are on nicknames?
jonasw
Zash, yes
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Zash
jonasw: Altho that's not as permanent as affiliation changes
Zash
Races could be mitigated by not allowing anyone else to use a recently used nickname (for x time)
jonasw
Zash, that’s a bad mitigation
Zash
Why?
jonasw
because my link may lag for x+1 time after I sent the kick
jonasw
without a way for me to rectify it in time
jonasw
and ebcause I don’t know their real jid I can’t re-invite them
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Ge0rG
I'm sure we can live with that improbable problem
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jonasw
(won’t be a problem with MIX)
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pep.
I think waqas mentioned prosody *had* an implementation of full-anon MUCs
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waqas
pep.: Yes, we used to, and it wouldn't be that hard to add again
pep.
I'd like that back, way more than semi-anon. I don't really get why semi-anon survived and not full-anon
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pep.
Though as SamWhited it doesn't have to be in that XEP? it can be dealt with another XEP. SamWhited, were you thinking of something like burner jids?
pep.
Is this used anywhere yet btw?
pep.
as SamWhited said*
waqas
I don't have context of what Sam said
waqas
I don't believe burner JIDs are needed for just anon MUC
pep.
05:58:01 Kev> Although it was me who was pushing for not having semi-anonymous (in xep45 terms) MIXs at all, but the Summit was very clear that this is a required feature.
05:58:28 SamWhited> I think it's a required feature, but I don't see why it has to be tightly coupled with MIX…
05:59:01 SamWhited> It could be some other XEP that comes later and isn't specific to MIX.
waqas
(beyond what Prosody already has for semi-anonymous)
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pep.
waqas, sure, but they could be used instead of implementing full-anon mucs on any server, and would also be useful not just for mucs
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waqas
As long as MIX clarifies that the JIDs may be missing or may not be real JIDs, and leaves the door open. Because if it's defined in a XEP, you still want interop with clients who were written before that new XEP happened.
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pep.
(don't pay attention to my UTC+9 timezone)
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waqas
"Go to sleep"? ^^
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Zash
Mental or physical timezone?
pep.
none of these. I just have to move that machine back, someday