XSF Discussion - 2018-03-26

  1. Tobias has joined

  2. Guus has left

  3. ralphm has left

  4. ralphm has joined

  5. ralphm has left

  6. ralphm has joined

  7. alexis has left

  8. alexis has joined

  9. Guus has left

  10. jere has joined

  11. winfried has left

  12. SamWhited has joined

  13. efrit has left

  14. Zash has left

  15. winfried has joined

  16. rion has joined

  17. Tobias has joined

  18. rion has left

  19. Tobias has joined

  20. matlag has left

  21. ralphm has left

  22. ralphm has joined

  23. LNJ has joined

  24. lskdjf has joined

  25. la|r|ma has joined

  26. Guus has left

  27. ralphm has left

  28. ralphm has joined

  29. ralphm has left

  30. ralphm has joined

  31. Guus has left

  32. moparisthebest has joined

  33. Tobias has joined

  34. Guus has left

  35. moparisthebest has joined

  36. Tobias has joined

  37. Tobias has joined

  38. Guus has left

  39. Tobias has joined

  40. Guus has left

  41. waqas has joined

  42. jere has joined

  43. Guus has left

  44. Guus has left

  45. Tobias has joined

  46. efrit has joined

  47. Guus has left

  48. Dave Cridland has left

  49. ralphm has left

  50. Dave Cridland has left

  51. ralphm has joined

  52. Guus has left

  53. Tobias has joined

  54. ralphm has left

  55. ralphm has joined

  56. alexis has left

  57. Guus has left

  58. alexis has joined

  59. LNJ has left

  60. Guus has joined

  61. tux has left

  62. tux has joined

  63. ralphm has left

  64. ralphm has joined

  65. Tobias has joined

  66. lskdjf has joined

  67. moparisthebest has joined

  68. winfried has left

  69. Tobias has joined

  70. efrit has left

  71. rion has joined

  72. alexis has left

  73. alexis has joined

  74. Guus has left

  75. Guus has left

  76. alexis has left

  77. alexis has joined

  78. Guus has joined

  79. Dave Cridland has left

  80. ralphm has left

  81. ralphm has joined

  82. Guus has left

  83. Tobias has joined

  84. moparisthebest has joined

  85. ralphm has left

  86. ralphm has joined

  87. Guus has left

  88. Guus has left

  89. Tobias has joined

  90. ralphm has left

  91. ralphm has joined

  92. jere has left

  93. jere has joined

  94. alexis has joined

  95. Guus has left

  96. Guus has left

  97. vanitasvitae has left

  98. vanitasvitae has joined

  99. Tobias has joined

  100. ralphm has left

  101. ralphm has joined

  102. jere has left

  103. la|r|ma has joined

  104. Tobias has joined

  105. Dave Cridland has left

  106. alexis has left

  107. alexis has joined

  108. rion has left

  109. Guus has left

  110. matlag has left

  111. matlag has left

  112. ralphm has left

  113. ralphm has joined

  114. daniel has left

  115. lskdjf has joined

  116. moparisthebest has joined

  117. Guus has left

  118. Zash has joined

  119. la|r|ma has joined

  120. Guus has left

  121. alexis has left

  122. alexis has joined

  123. Guus has left

  124. alexis has left

  125. alexis has joined

  126. Guus has left

  127. Tobias has joined

  128. ralphm has left

  129. ralphm has joined

  130. rion has left

  131. rion has joined

  132. moparisthebest has joined

  133. ralphm has left

  134. ralphm has joined

  135. Tobias has joined

  136. Tobias has joined

  137. rion has left

  138. rion has joined

  139. Tobias has joined

  140. Guus has left

  141. McKael has joined

  142. ralphm has left

  143. ralphm has joined

  144. rion has left

  145. moparisthebest has joined

  146. Tobias has joined

  147. j.r has joined

  148. j.r has joined

  149. Tobias has joined

  150. ralphm has left

  151. ralphm has joined

  152. Guus has left

  153. SamWhited has left

  154. Guus has left

  155. Guus has left

  156. Guus has left

  157. ralphm has left

  158. ralphm has joined

  159. ralphm has left

  160. ralphm has joined

  161. Guus has left

  162. goffi has joined

  163. rion has joined

  164. Tobias has joined

  165. j.r has joined

  166. Tobias has joined

  167. Guus has left

  168. Guus has left

  169. Guus has left

  170. Guus has left

  171. marc has left

  172. Dave Cridland has left

  173. alexis has left

  174. Tobias has joined

  175. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  176. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  177. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  178. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  179. Tobias has joined

  180. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  181. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  182. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  183. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  184. j.r has joined

  185. mrdoctorwho has joined

  186. Valerian has joined

  187. alexis has joined

  188. Tobias has joined

  189. daniel has left

  190. Guus has left

  191. Guus has left

  192. Guus has left

  193. Dave Cridland has left

  194. Dave Cridland has left

  195. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  196. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  197. Dave Cridland has left

  198. j.r has joined

  199. Valerian has left

  200. Valerian has joined

  201. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  202. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  203. Dave Cridland has left

  204. Guus has left

  205. Dave Cridland has left

  206. moparisthebest has joined

  207. ralphm has left

  208. ralphm has joined

  209. moparisthebest has joined

  210. Valerian has left

  211. Valerian has joined

  212. ralphm has joined

  213. Guus has left

  214. Valerian has left

  215. nyco has left

  216. alexis has left

  217. moparisthebest has joined

  218. lumi has joined

  219. alexis has joined

  220. Dave Cridland has left

  221. ralphm has left

  222. ralphm has joined

  223. Guus has left

  224. moparisthebest has joined

  225. ralphm has left

  226. ralphm has joined

  227. Guus has left

  228. Valerian has joined

  229. Valerian has left

  230. Ge0rG

    When is it legal to send a message _from_ a bare JID?

  231. vanitasvitae has left

  232. vanitasvitae has joined

  233. jonasw

    Ge0rG, as a client, you can’t

  234. jonasw

    a server will do that when the message is "from the account", like MAM responses or PEP I think

  235. Ge0rG

    I'm receiving spam from a bare JID.

  236. jonasw


  237. jonasw

    goofy server I’d say

  238. SaltyBones has left

  239. Ge0rG

    -version bnw.im

  240. Bunneh

    Ge0rG: bnw.im is running BnW version 0.1 on OS/360

  241. jonasw

    RFC 6120 is rather clear on that: 1. When a server receives an XML stanza from a connected client, the server MUST add a 'from' attribute to the stanza or override the 'from' attribute specified by the client, where the value of the 'from' attribute MUST be the full JID (<localpart@domainpart/resource>) determined by the server for the connected resource that generated the stanza (see Section 4.3.6), or the bare JID (<localpart@domainpart>) in the case of subscription-related presence stanzas (see [XMPP-IM]).

  242. Maranda

    Spam Server!

  243. jonasw

    I can’t into cyrillic

  244. vanitasvitae has left

  245. jonasw

    seems to be some type of social network thing

  246. Maranda

    All the spam is into cyrillic.

  247. vanitasvitae has joined

  248. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  249. Maranda

    Looks like 4chan

  250. ralphm has joined

  251. Dave Cridland has left

  252. SaltyBones has joined

  253. Dave Cridland has left

  254. daniel has left

  255. Kev has joined

  256. vanitasvitae has left

  257. Dave Cridland has left

  258. Valerian has joined

  259. intosi has joined

  260. Dave Cridland has left

  261. Dave Cridland has left

  262. moparisthebest has left

  263. Guus has left

  264. vanitasvitae has joined

  265. ralphm has joined

  266. moparisthebest has joined

  267. ralphm has left

  268. Valerian has left

  269. Guus has left

  270. lumi has left

  271. Steve Kille has joined

  272. ralphm has joined

  273. Ge0rG

    -ping jabber.org

  274. Ge0rG

    -ping conference.jabber.org

  275. Kev

    The host seems to not be reachable.

  276. jonasw


  277. daniel has left

  278. ralphm has joined

  279. Ge0rG

    This is an example of why it's good to have our MUCs spread over multiple servers. We can still talk about downtime

  280. jonasw


  281. jonasw

    or FMUC?

  282. jonasw

    did anyone think about how to integrate federation in an extension to MIX?

  283. Ge0rG


  284. jonasw

    or maybe just cluster MIX services

  285. jonasw

    Ge0rG, Boomfunk MCs?

  286. Steve Kille

    I've been thinking about FMIX, but I think we need to get "vanilla MIX" sorted first

  287. jonasw

    Steve Kille, agreed

  288. Kev

    J.org was going to be clustered, but we just never got around to it.

  289. jonasw

    Ge0rG, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymNFyxvIdaM

  290. Dave Cridland has left

  291. Ge0rG

    jonasw: one of my favorite pieces of 1990ies music.

  292. alexis has left

  293. jonasw

    Ge0rG, :-)

  294. jonasw

    oh, too many os

  295. jonasw

    gotta fix that in my music library

  296. alexis has joined

  297. alexis has left

  298. alexis has joined

  299. alexis has left

  300. Bunneh

    Ge0rG: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: closed

  301. Bunneh

    Ge0rG: Ping failed (remote-server-not-found): Server-to-server connection failed: closed

  302. Ge0rG

    Wow, Bunneh has some serious timeout issues

  303. vanitasvitae has left

  304. ralphm has joined

  305. jonasw

    Ge0rG, it’s just diligent

  306. jonasw

    Ge0rG, just in case you host your server on your mobile phone.

  307. Ge0rG

    I was shocked to hear that conversations.im has a 60 seconds 0198 ack timeout

  308. jonasw

    that’s long or that’s short?

  309. intosi

    Those with IPv6 should be able to see c.j.o and j.o

  310. intosi

    Only the IPv4 connectivity seems to be dead.

  311. Ge0rG

    I'm dualstacked. In theory.

  312. Dave Cridland has left

  313. intosi has left

  314. intosi has joined

  315. jonasw

    hm,w eird

  316. jonasw

    I’m dualstacked in practice, but it doesn’t work

  317. jonasw

    into the debug logs!

  318. Ge0rG

    my prosody was keeping an s2s connection and failed to send data that way.

  319. Ge0rG

    after killing it, it retried ipv4, now ipv6.

  320. ralphm has joined

  321. intosi

    My prosody was, as well.

  322. jonasw

    I blame the SRV records

  323. jonasw

    _xmpp-server._tcp.conference.jabber.org. 900 IN SRV 30 30 5269 hermes2.jabber.org. _xmpp-server._tcp.conference.jabber.org. 900 IN SRV 31 30 5269 hermes2v6.jabber.org.

  324. jonasw

    why separate records for v6 and v4, and why prefer v4?

  325. jonasw

    hm, my prosody does not try the next one after the first times out

  326. jonasw

    might be my old 0.9.x version though

  327. intosi

    There used to be too many clients with ipv6 issues in the past.

  328. jonasw

    intosi, servers, too?

  329. intosi

    IPv6 in general was an unhappier place five years ago, when these records were set up.

  330. jonasw

    maybe a change is due

  331. jonasw

    haven’t had issues (I know about) with dual-stacked records

  332. intosi

    Quite likely.

  333. jonasw

    this would be a good time for change ;-)

  334. intosi

    There used to be a lot of Teredo links, a lot of them barely functioning.

  335. jonasw

    that makes it a bit more funny that the v4 route aborts at an HE router…

  336. ralphm has joined

  337. jonasw

    also, turns out, grepping for jabber.org in debug logs isn’t htat useful. "[…]xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams'[…]" and the likes

  338. alexis has joined

  339. Ge0rG

    Mar 26 10:13:25 s2sout56531734a4f0 debug sending: <db:result to='conference.jabber.org' from='yax.im'> Mar 26 10:13:25 s2sout56531734a4f0 debug sent dialback key on outgoing s2s stream And then nothing happens.

  340. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  341. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  342. waqas has left

  343. Ge0rG

    So it looks like dialback is never completed, then timeouts

  344. alexis has left

  345. alexis has joined

  346. Andrew Nenakhov

    jonasw, I can into Cyrillic but this one is not meant to be easily understood by normal people

  347. daniel has left

  348. ralphm has joined

  349. Ge0rG

    intosi, Kev: are you interested in further debugging why s2s over ipv6 still fails?

  350. intosi

    Ge0rG: thanks for the offer, but I can fully reproduce the issue myself at the moment.

  351. alexis has left

  352. Syndace has left

  353. Syndace has joined

  354. intosi

    It appears that hermes2, the host running jabber.org, has its IPv4 traffic blocked at its gateway.

  355. intosi

    Not blocked, but blackholed.

  356. Ge0rG

    Your ISP switched you to DS-Lite, silently :P

  357. alexis has joined

  358. intosi

    That might be the result of excess ingress or egress connections earlier, I haven't checked yet.

  359. Tobias

    Ge0rG, it's hard to get large packets as IPv6 through the big walls of a bunker

  360. intosi

    The IPv6 packets are actually getting through ;)

  361. moparisthebest has joined

  362. intosi

    It's the tiny IPv4 packets that are filtered out :D

  363. Ge0rG

    Tobias: I didn't know j.o is running on Bulletproof Hosting.

  364. Guus has left

  365. Ge0rG

    maybe they are too small to swim alone, and j.o is hosted on Sealand instead?

  366. alexis has joined

  367. alexis has left

  368. alexis has joined

  369. Guus has left

  370. mrdoctorwho has left

  371. intosi has left

  372. intosi has joined

  373. Alex has joined

  374. mrdoctorwho has left

  375. alexis has joined

  376. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  377. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  378. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  379. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  380. ralphm has left

  381. alexis has left

  382. alexis has joined

  383. nyco has left

  384. alexis has left

  385. alexis has joined

  386. alexis has left

  387. alexis has joined

  388. vanitasvitae has joined

  389. jonasw

    Ge0rG, winfried: +10min for me

  390. Guus has left

  391. Dave Cridland has left

  392. vanitasvitae has left

  393. vanitasvitae has joined

  394. Guus has left

  395. moparisthebest has joined

  396. j.r has joined

  397. alexis has left

  398. moparisthebest has joined

  399. alexis has joined

  400. pep.


  401. Alex has left

  402. LNJ has joined

  403. Alex has joined

  404. Williams W has joined

  405. Williams W


  406. Williams W


  407. MattJ


  408. pep.


  409. Williams W

    china ?

  410. Williams W

    im china~

  411. Williams W has left

  412. Williams W has joined

  413. Williams W has left

  414. Williams W has joined

  415. Williams W


  416. Williams W has left

  417. Williams W has joined

  418. Williams W has left

  419. j.r has joined

  420. winfried


  421. winfried

    sorry for being a bit late, had to fetch my luunch ;-)

  422. jubalh has joined

  423. pep.

    winfried, !

  424. Ge0rG

    I haven't had lunch yet.

  425. pep.

    jonasw said +10mn apparently

  426. pep.

    It's still 11am for me :-°

  427. winfried

    pep.: I know

  428. winfried

    (about jonasw )

  429. Williams W has joined

  430. Williams W has left

  431. winfried

    Shall we start and check with jonasw when he joins us?

  432. Seve/SouL

    Some meeting going on now?

  433. Williams W has joined

  434. Williams W has left

  435. winfried

    Seve/SouL: GDPR & XSF meeting

  436. pep.

    I guess we can wait a bit, it's already 9

  437. winfried

    also good ;-)

  438. pep.

    I guess we can wait a bit, it's already :09

  439. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  440. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  441. Guus has left

  442. jonasw

    I'm close

  443. jonasw

    here I am

  444. pep.


  445. winfried

    welcome, should someone bang a gafel?

  446. pep.


  447. pep.

    Ge0rG, jonasw, winfried, pep.!

  448. pep.


  449. jonasw

    so, I‘ve got a few things

  450. winfried


  451. winfried

    I think there are three questions at hand: Q1) What consequences does the GDPR has for the Jabber network and Jabber server operators and what can/should do the XSF with that? Q2) What consequences does the GDPR has for the XSF run Jabber server? Q3) What consequences does the GDPR has for the work processes of the XSF itself (membership, voting, wiki etc)?

  452. jonasw

    if it’s okay, I‘ll just dump a few notes I took during a talk about GDPR for self-hosters at the chemnitzer linux tage

  453. vanitasvitae has left

  454. winfried

    jonasw: go ahead!

  455. jonasw

    it’s mostly a random collection of stuff which I felt was important

  456. Guus has left

  457. jonasw

    first some key articles about the rights of the subjects of the data: art. 13, 14, plus possibly 7, 15, 12, 16, 17, 21 and 20

  458. Ge0rG

    Yes please. I also had a talk with out GDPR expert regarding self-hosting, so we should be able to align those

  459. jonasw

    there are rights for transfer of data between providers, in article 20

  460. jonasw

    some risk management articles: 5, and consent in 7 and 8, with proof

  461. jonasw

    and the articles about notifying about data breaches, 33 and 34

  462. jonasw

    and something about a directory of data stored, processed and shared supposedly detailed in article 30

  463. jonasw

    as I mentioned, those are really just quick notes I took, I haven’t had the chance to look deeply into this. Those are the articles I plan to have a deeper look, and which might be most relevant. but IANAL

  464. jonasw

    for the german folks: the speaker said that most of the GDPR has been german law for ages already, so germans have even less of an excuse ;-)

  465. Guus has left

  466. marc has joined

  467. jonasw


  468. Ge0rG

    winfried: do you want to chair this? Maybe we should split the three questions from Q1 into individual ones, and also put https://trello.com/c/t79C3Yds/307-gdpr-advice on the agenda

  469. jonasw

    we might also want to look very closely at the legal definitions of Controller and Processor and Join Controller etc.

  470. ludo has joined

  471. winfried

    Ge0rG: if jonasw and pep. don't mind me chairing, yes

  472. jonasw

    as well as the intent, which isn’t defined clearly

  473. pep.

    winfried, sure

  474. vanitasvitae has joined

  475. jonasw

    the speaker mentioned that the intent as well as the separation of controller and processor or something can make a huge difference. he for example assumed that their company wasn’t affected much because while they have their users data (as a hoster), they do not directly work with that (so no intent of usage) and thus they’re not affected

  476. jonasw

    he was from hostsharing.net fwiw (german)

  477. Ge0rG set the topic to

    XSF GDPR Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  478. winfried

    I propose to take step beck: there is the legal discussion about things like jurisdiction, processor/controller, legal ground for processing, risk of data, transfer etc

  479. winfried

    but there is also a question about cooperation with the IETF for example on this

  480. mrdoctorwho has left

  481. Ge0rG

    winfried: the IETF is facing the same problems we are?

  482. michael has joined

  483. winfried

    Ge0rG: possibly, the IETF was mentioned in the mail to the board

  484. jonasw

    (because someone mentioned it here, actually.)

  485. Ge0rG

    winfried: do we know who at the IETF is working on it?

  486. winfried

    I have no idea

  487. jubalh has left

  488. Ge0rG

    (how) should we collaborate with them?

  489. Ge0rG

    Somebody needs to find out and contact them then

  490. winfried

    who takes notes? I see a to-do here ;-)

  491. Ge0rG

    we need a minute taker!

  492. winfried


  493. pep.

    Can do, that'll force me to understand what's been said

  494. Ge0rG

    Sorry, I'm 120% busy with work, so this is borrowed time already.

  495. jonasw

    this seems to touch on Q3 and I’d like to challenge the premise of that

  496. Ge0rG

    pep.: :+1:

  497. winfried

    jonasw: this may touch Q1 too

  498. winfried

    jonasw: can you elaborate your challenge?

  499. jonasw

    to my knowledge, the XSF does not handle non-public data

  500. jonasw

    voting may be the only exception

  501. jonasw

    the MUCs are public, the wiki is public

  502. jonasw

    the only non-public data aside from voting *may* be the email adresses used for wiki accounts; which aren’t sensitive according to article 9 (1), so much less relevant.

  503. MattJ has left

  504. michael has left

  505. michael has joined

  506. winfried

    jonasw: and the e-mail adresses are inherent to the service provided. Still we can question if the GDPR is applicable to the XSF at all

  507. jonasw

    (one could construe that voting data are "political opinions" though)

  508. jonasw

    winfried, that’s another matter, indeed

  509. jonasw

    but even if it does apply, I don’t think it matters

  510. Ge0rG

    email addresses are not sensitive, but they are personal data. So we _are_ storing personal data.

  511. nyco has left

  512. winfried

    But to apply to become a member, I have to state my real name on a public wiki and I have to include my employer (and contact data). Are there any rules about how long that should be stored / stay public?

  513. pep.

    jonasw, does everything on the member application fall under 9.1?

  514. pep.

    fullname, email, employer, etc.

  515. pep.

    Though these pages are public indeed

  516. jonasw

    pep., the member application (like everything else on the wiki) is covered by article 9 (2) e) I think

  517. jonasw

    > processing relates to personal data which are manifestly made public by the data subject;

  518. Dave Cridland has left

  519. pep.

    hmm, is it really email we ask for on the membership or JID?

  520. Ge0rG

    Wiki accounts can be created by non-members, so their email address is not published by themselves.

  521. jonasw

    pep., email is needed for a wiki account

  522. Ge0rG

    pep.: both

  523. winfried

    jonasw: yes, I think it is 9.2, but is that the right discussion to have right here right now?

  524. Ge0rG

    winfried: you are the chair!

  525. jonasw

    winfried, dunno, I answered pep.s question :)

  526. pep.

    Sorry, just for the notes

  527. winfried


  528. winfried

    Ok, then I make a procudural proposal:

  529. winfried

    I popsted 3 issues

  530. winfried

    I think we should take each of them and inventise how big the potential problem is and what research we still need to do

  531. Ge0rG

    winfried: yes. also please split up Q1.

  532. jonasw

    winfried, okay

  533. jonasw

    make a headline and we’re good to go :)

  534. winfried

    and then try to make a (preliminary) assesment of a good strategy

  535. pep.

    Agreed, we should split Q1

  536. winfried

    *** Q1 ***

  537. winfried

    proposals to split?

  538. Ge0rG

    winfried: Q1.1 What consequences does the GDPR has for the Jabber network Q1.2 ... and Jabber server operators Q1.3 ... and what can/should do the XSF with that?

  539. pep.

    Also Q2 goes into Q1.2 doesn't it?

  540. Ge0rG

    pep.: Q2 depends on Q1.2

  541. winfried


  542. pep.


  543. winfried

    *** Q1.1 ***

  544. michael has left

  545. jonasw

    Q1.1 raises the question of how consent works in a federated network.

  546. jonasw

    we have no idea.

  547. Ge0rG

    jonasw: wait, what? elaborate that please

  548. winfried

    I think it is good to follow the line: a is it in the GDPR jurisdiction, what data is

  549. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I send you a message. you have MAM which stores forever. I never consented to your servers MAM storage.

  550. pep.

    I think he's referring to the questions he raised for the previous board

  551. winfried

    b what data is processed

  552. winfried

    c what processing is done

  553. winfried

    (forgetting about responsible party/processer)

  554. winfried

    d what ground does the processing have

  555. winfried

    e possible consequences

  556. ludo has left

  557. Ge0rG

    winfried: (a) processing data of users in the EU requires GDPR compliance. Maybe also processing of data inside the EU, regardless of where the users are.

  558. jonasw

    winfried, what is "it" in your (a)?

  559. Ge0rG

    winfried: so basically all servers that are not geo-locked to exclude the EU fall under GDPR

  560. winfried

    jonasw: good question in a federated network

  561. winfried

    I think we should regard each server as its own legal entity, and the federation as a kind of processing (exchanging data)

  562. Ge0rG

    I think it makes sense to define the roles as well. An XMPP server operator is a "controller", and whoever does the hosting and other services for them is a "processor"

  563. marc has left

  564. winfried

    Ge0rG: +1

  565. Ge0rG

    winfried: we have strong parallels to email. I agree with your conclusion regarding server = legal entity

  566. pep.

    Hmm, that doesn't fit with what you said winfried

  567. winfried

    pep.: ?

  568. pep.

    You said "exchanging data", would that fit into "transfering data", and not "processing" per se

  569. MattJ has left

  570. daniel has left

  571. Ge0rG

    I suggest we first focus on a single server before widening up to federation

  572. pep.


  573. pep.

    The c2s-only case is a lot more straightforward

  574. winfried

    pep.: (breaking my head, is transfering / exchangeing legally seen also a kind of processing, let that discussion dangle for a moment)

  575. winfried

    Ge0rG: +1

  576. Dave Cridland has left

  577. winfried

    Ge0rG: on your: "Maybe also processing of data inside the EU, regardless of where the users are. " - I think we can safely say yes in that one

  578. winfried

    though not cast in iron, the first opinions point in that direction

  579. jonasw

    Ge0rG, winfried, alternatively, in the case of MAM, we could argue that the User is the Controller and the server doing the storage is the Processor.

  580. Ge0rG

    winfried: I've heard different opinions on that, we should say "probably yes"

  581. mrdoctorwho has left

  582. Ge0rG

    jonasw: no!

  583. mrdoctorwho has joined

  584. jonasw

    Ge0rG, why?

  585. winfried

    we should also add a non-EU server targeting EU-citizens

  586. winfried

    jonasw: as far as I know the user can't be the controller, just the data subject...

  587. Ge0rG

    winfried: non-EU server targeting EU-citizens must also comply with GDPR

  588. winfried

    Ge0rG: yes

  589. Ge0rG

    so we've got (a) now, up to (b)?

  590. winfried

    yes, please ;-)

  591. winfried

    does a xmpp server (c2s) process personal data? I think that is a yes too:

  592. jonasw

    this is a strong YES

  593. winfried

    jid as identifyer

  594. jonasw

    it is even sensitive data according to article 9 (1), I’m pretty sure.

  595. winfried


  596. Ge0rG

    A server is storing a users' JID and login credentials, roster content (with names), bookmarks, offline/MAM history

  597. vanitasvitae has left

  598. jonasw

    http upload, too

  599. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I don't think it's sensitive.

  600. jonasw

    avatar and vcard are "meant to be public"?

  601. jonasw

    Ge0rG, depends on the message content, doesn’t it?

  602. jonasw

    you have to assume it is

  603. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm not sure this is how it works.

  604. jonasw

    why not?

  605. Dave Cridland has left

  606. Dave Cridland has joined

  607. Dave Cridland has left

  608. winfried

    think it is good to distrinc here between the data that is structurally collected and data like the content that is forwarded/stored

  609. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I assume that art9 applies if you collect sensitive data from users, not if they give it to you without you asking

  610. jonasw

    Ge0rG, any source for that?

  611. moparisthebest has joined

  612. Kev has left

  613. winfried

    is anybody aware of an analyses of the status of communication services within the GDPR?

  614. pep.

    Ge0rG, I'd say any <message> almost, rather than MAM? or "history" in general (nit)

  615. jonasw googles

  616. jonasw

    > How Cloud Communications Can Help You Comply With GDPR

  617. jonasw

    oh my god

  618. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I would argue as follows: the user uploads the data because they want you to forward it to the receipient, so there is a art6 §1 d or f legitimate interest

  619. moparisthebest has joined

  620. winfried

    I think we can use the pictures analogy here: you can find out if people have certain diseases from a picture, but pictures aren't sensitive data until you analyse them

  621. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I thought that Article 9 (1) overrides that.

  622. Ge0rG

    jonasw: you can't google that. don't even try "email gdpr"

  623. jonasw

    mind that article 9 (1) is not (only) a definition, but a "shall be prohibited" and only (2) defines exceptions for that.

  624. pep.

    Ge0rG, though jingle-ft could be used for that, most of the time

  625. winfried

    storing and forwarding a (very) personal chat may keep us out of 9.1 as long it isn't analysed / indexed on words as 'sex'...

  626. pep.

    The legitimacy of server-side component lies for offline delivery, and groupchats(?)

  627. Ge0rG

    (a) the data subject has given explicit consent to the processing of those personal data

  628. jonasw

    winfried, pictures are explicitly handled in the reasoning though

  629. MattJ has left

  630. jonasw

    winfried, pictures are explicitly handled in the recitals though

  631. jonasw

    so maybe that analogy doesn’t work

  632. jonasw

    > The processing of photographs should not systematically be considered to be processing of special categories of personal data as they are covered by the definition of biometric data only when processed through a specific technical means allowing the unique identification or authentication of a natural person.

  633. winfried

    jonasw: true

  634. Ge0rG

    That's actually a good analogy.

  635. jonasw

    Ge0rG, regarding Art. 9 (2) a): exactly, which is why I said we need a way to make users express consent for that.

  636. jonasw

    and server operators need a way to be sure of that to an extent where they can blame others if the recorded statement is false

  637. Ge0rG

    So we have the meta-data actually requested by the XMPP server: JID, name(?), email(?), IP address(es)(?)

  638. alexis has left

  639. Ge0rG

    this meta-data is not sensitive.

  640. jonasw

    note that "storing" is a subset of processing.

  641. Ge0rG

    and we have the actual data that's sent by the user, which is stored / processed. As long as we don't do racial profiling on that, it's not sensitive either.

  642. pep.

    jonasw, true

  643. jonasw

    I’m not convinced

  644. j.r has joined

  645. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I think it must still be declared and the user must still consent for storage at least, because of the risk of data breaches.

  646. Ge0rG

    jonasw: wait, are you still talking of art9?

  647. jonasw

    I think so

  648. Zash

    Analyzing for SPAM, does that matter?

  649. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I agree regarding the general requirements of the GDPR, but not art9

  650. winfried

    Zash: yes

  651. efrit has joined

  652. Ge0rG

    Zash: not for art9, I'd say. Unless your SPAM detector is a Jew detector in practice.

  653. jonasw

    Ge0rG, it might be a sexual content detector in practice.

  654. jonasw

    for email at least.

  655. pep.

    or a cyrillic detector

  656. pep.


  657. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I think the only viable reason to run a sexual content detector is to block the latter, in which case GDPR does not apply?

  658. winfried

    Ge0rG: not 'in practice' but explictely

  659. winfried

    I have a feeling that as long as we don't analyse data (content AND metadata) on patterns that indicate categories from art 9.1, 9.1 is not appliccable

  660. jonasw

    winfried, I like that idea. I’m not sure on that though. It would be good to get legal advice on this.

  661. jonasw

    this might be focused enough to actually get an answer to.

  662. jonasw

    but what do I know.

  663. winfried

    pep.: I see a to-do ;-)

  664. pep.


  665. pep.

    so any kind of mod_firewall trickery will probably get us off that safe land?

  666. pep.

    What's meant by "analyse" here exactly

  667. pep.

    Also, "from art 9.1, 9.2", right?

  668. jonasw

    analyze to an extent where you could say "this person would elect Democrats in the next election"

  669. jonasw

    (or similar statements about the other sensitive attributes mentioned in 9.1)

  670. winfried

    or 'this person has sex once a month'

  671. pep.


  672. Zash

    Not the things needed for routing, right

  673. winfried

    Zash: exactly

  674. pep.

    Zash, depends? Maybe you'll route differently if they have sex more often

  675. pep.

    Anyway, going on?

  676. winfried


  677. pep.

    That's b and c "sorted"?

  678. pep.

    For the C2S case

  679. pep.

    Maybe c not entirely "what processing is done", we could maybe list a few common cases

  680. winfried

    I think we can safely say a XMPP server operator is a controller (not the hoster)

  681. jonasw

    I think what we *at the very minimum* learn from this given the technical means in the Jabber network is: you absolutely must not do any kind of data mining on message content which might come from federation.

  682. pep.

    winfried, agreed on that

  683. Dave Cridland has joined

  684. winfried

    jonasw: agree

  685. marmistrz has left

  686. marmistrz has joined

  687. pep.

    jonasw, why especially federation

  688. jonasw

    pep., because federated users cannot consent

  689. jonasw

    you could get consent from your local users

  690. pep.

    I see

  691. winfried

    do we have a clear idea of the data collected and processed in a xmpp server?

  692. jonasw

    and operators might fall for "I got consent from my users, so I’m fine with processing their messages" but that’s in fact false because you’d need consent from the senders too

  693. jonasw

    winfried, I think Ge0rG gave a list earlier

  694. pep.

    I have listed: - JID - login credentials - roster content (with names) - bookmarks - "history" (offline/MAM)

  695. jonasw

    roster, timestamp of last available presence, mam, offline messages, http upload, in-flight messages

  696. MattJ has left

  697. jonasw


  698. pep.

    Ah right presence

  699. jonasw

    pep., add "timestamp of last available presence"

  700. jonasw

    and in general presence is saved transiently to anwser probes

  701. Alex has left

  702. winfried

    logfiles with connection data

  703. pep.

    winfried, as in? IP? (re private data)

  704. jonasw

    http upload, too

  705. jonasw

    pep., timestamps and IP, yes

  706. pep.

    jonasw, or any kind of server-side component storage files?

  707. pep.


  708. jonasw

    pep., yeah

  709. jonasw

    MUC history, too

  710. winfried

    also PEP data

  711. pep.

    MUC history, only applying to private MUCs?

  712. jonasw

    PEP is by default public

  713. Ge0rG

    would it make sense to put all that under "user content"?

  714. jonasw


  715. alexis has joined

  716. winfried

    except for the logfiles

  717. jonasw

    login credentials are hardly user content, too

  718. Valerian has joined

  719. Ge0rG

    what about the roster?

  720. lumi has joined

  721. winfried

    jonasw: agreed, they may have a different legal status

  722. vanitasvitae has joined

  723. Ge0rG

    I think that roster / bookmarks are special, but (actual) PEP, MAM, offline, HTTP-Upload is all user content

  724. jonasw

    why are roster and bookmarks special?

  725. Ge0rG

    jonasw: PII, passwords

  726. jonasw

    are bookmarks PII?

  727. Ge0rG

    "Georg's private Sex Toys Chat"

  728. jonasw

    ah, I forgot about that one ;-)

  729. jonasw

    but isn’t that like message content?

  730. Ge0rG

    jonasw: not sure.

  731. winfried

    jonasw: I think so

  732. jonasw

    Ge0rG, why would it be different from message content?

  733. Ge0rG

    so we have: - credentials - user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files) - server logs

  734. julius has joined

  735. winfried


  736. jonasw

    Ge0rG, timestamp of last presence isn’t user content though

  737. Ge0rG

    jonasw: "server logs"?

  738. jubalh has joined

  739. jonasw

    kinda, but it’s shared to peers

  740. Ge0rG

    so we have: - credentials - user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files) - user metadata (IPs, last activity, ...) - server logs

  741. jonasw

    yeah, I’d like to have this separate, because you’re not "safe" as operator just because you turned off logging.

  742. winfried

    user metadata also includes data on the xmpp client

  743. pep.

    server logs can include all the above though

  744. Ge0rG

    winfried: what does an xmpp server store about the client?

  745. pep.

    server logs do include all the above though

  746. jonasw

    Ge0rG, entity caps, which may allow mapping to disco#info, which may inclued software and OS version

  747. jonasw

    probably neither sensitive nor PII

  748. jonasw

    pep., not credentials, I hope :)

  749. winfried

    jonasw: it can show when I am at home, at my laptop or only on the mobile

  750. Ge0rG

    I'd argue that server logs fall under http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/r49.htm

  751. Dave Cridland has left

  752. winfried

    it may also show when my connected sex toy is online...

  753. pep.

    jonasw, if scram then no, otherwise I could imagine it being in there

  754. Ge0rG

    winfried: your resource string is either user-data or user-metadata

  755. jonasw

    winfried, I think that’s user content/message content though because clients usually do that by themselves by asking for your disco#info. nothing special is done by the server here.

  756. jonasw

    (unless it does caps optimization, in that case see above)

  757. jonasw

    pep., if a server ever logs a password sent with PLAIN, report that as a bug

  758. jonasw

    even a SCRAM exchange shouldn’t be logged imo.

  759. pep.

    For debug purposes, for example

  760. jonasw

    pep., there’s no reason to log passwords for debug reasons.

  761. jonasw

    but we digress I thnik

  762. Alex has joined

  763. jonasw

    Ge0rG, but only for limited time. a proper logrotate would have to be in pace

  764. jonasw

    Ge0rG, but only for limited time. a proper logrotate would have to be in place

  765. winfried

    I think: - credentials - user content (roster, bookmarks, PEP, messages, files) - user metadata (IPs, last activity, ...) - server logs is a good devision, because it devides the data in different legal categories

  766. jonasw

    winfried, I agree (not that I knew about which legal categories there are)

  767. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I don't see a time limitation in R49

  768. jonasw

    Ge0rG, to the extent strictly necessary and proportionate

  769. jonasw

    I think it’s hard to argue that you need to store full prosody debug logs for 2y for example.

  770. Ge0rG

    jonasw: good point

  771. winfried

    credentials: by creating these, you may implilcitly give permission for processing pii by the service

  772. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  773. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  774. jonasw

    I don’t think there’s such a thing as implicit consent

  775. Ge0rG

    So we have (b) covered as well now.

  776. jonasw

    in GDPR at least

  777. winfried

    user content: limit discussed earlier

  778. winfried

    user metadata: as user contant, possible different limitations

  779. winfried

    server logs r49, with limitations as above

  780. pep.

    what's this r49 exactly, let me find it

  781. Ge0rG

    winfried: what about (c), what processing is done? is that implicitly clear?

  782. MattJ has left

  783. Ge0rG

    pep.: http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/r49.htm

  784. jonasw

    Ge0rG, https://gdpr-info.eu/art-30-gdpr/

  785. jonasw

    that’s probably most relevant regarding (c)

  786. jonasw

    wait, I might be confused

  787. winfried is waiting

  788. jonasw


  789. jonasw

    don’t wait though

  790. j.r has joined

  791. jonasw

    in any case, taht article is relevant, probably not for (c) though

  792. jonasw

    or maybe it is :)

  793. jonasw

    i just lost all context

  794. Valerian has left

  795. winfried

    jonasw: I don't understand the coffee cup my client is showing me...

  796. Ge0rG

    winfried: your client is broken, it replaces letters in braces by pictures of things

  797. jonasw

    '( c )'

  798. Ge0rG

    winfried: b = beer, c = coffee

  799. Ge0rG

    dunno about a=(a)

  800. pep.

    c) is what processing is done. For that atm I have a quote from winfried, "we should not analyse data (content and metadata) on patterns that indicate categories from art 9.1 and 9.2", and then jonasw's "you absolutely must not do any kind of data mining on message content which might come from federation"

  801. pep.

    We haven't done b) for the S2S case, we'll get to that afterwards?

  802. winfried

    pep.: correct

  803. winfried

    you can leave out the 'might come from federation' part

  804. jonasw

    winfried, you *can* do data maning if you got consent from your users -- but not on federated messages

  805. jonasw

    unless you do some captcha thing

  806. jonasw

    I feel that’s important to mention

  807. pep.

    jonasw, more details on the captcha thing?

  808. Ge0rG

    my take: - credentials: stored as long as the account exists, limited further processing (check user JID against well-know spammer patterns) - user content: stored as long as the account exists (roster, bookmarks, PEP) / for a limited time (messages, http upload)

  809. jonasw

    not that I’d condone data mining of any kind, but if an operator chooses to do so with consent of their users, they have to restrict to non-federated.

  810. winfried

    jonasw: I can also ask for consent from federated users

  811. jonasw

    pep., like, on the first message from a federated user, hold that message and make the federated user click a button on a website with terms of services for all messages sent to that domain.

  812. jonasw

    winfried, yes, but harder

  813. jonasw

    because they don’t sign up.

  814. jonasw

    and it might not be obvious

  815. Nekit has left

  816. Nekit has joined

  817. Ge0rG

    I think we should focus on what processing is technically required, what is typical and not focus on special cases of user-targeting

  818. winfried

    jonasw: yes, so it is an administrative / technical issue, but legally it seems the same to me

  819. jonasw

    Ge0rG, +1

  820. Ge0rG

    also please keep federation out yet

  821. winfried

    Ge0rG: +1

  822. jonasw

    I think that federation is the most tricky part though ;-)

  823. winfried

    jonasw: +1

  824. Ge0rG

    jonasw: maybe it's not.

  825. Ge0rG

    so can we get back to minimal and typical please?

  826. pep.

    agreed with Ge0rG's split for b)

  827. efrit has left

  828. Ge0rG

    credentials: minimal = store as long as the account exists | typical = spam bot detection user metadata: minimal = store during connection | typical = store with account, spam detection, expose to other users (last activity)

  829. jonasw

    "typical = spam bot detection" for credentials?

  830. jonasw

    do you store plaintext passwords to detect spam bot??

  831. jonasw

    do you store plaintext passwords to detect spam bots?

  832. pep.

    localpart or server I guess

  833. pep.

    Ah wait, not server, just localpart for c2s

  834. Ge0rG

    user content: minimal = roster,bookmarks with account, PEP in RAM only, offline messages until first client connects | typical = with account, MAM/files for a given amount of time

  835. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm checking usernames against patterns

  836. jonasw

    Ge0rG, right

  837. jonasw

    I was thinking about storage only, you were (rightfully so) thinking about processing

  838. pep.

    (brb, 1 minute)

  839. Dave Cridland has left

  840. winfried

    Ge0rG: I like that list

  841. Dave Cridland has left

  842. Ge0rG

    - server logs: minimal = no logs | typical = some days / weeks of logrotate, maybe with IP addresses / message metadata. I'm storing debug logs for two weeks plus additional spam detection logs

  843. Dave Cridland has joined

  844. Ge0rG

    addenum for user metadata/typical: IP address of registration / of last login

  845. Ge0rG

    storage of ^

  846. winfried

    and I nothing that is disproportional or outside reasonable user expectation

  847. Ge0rG

    Somebody should wifiky that. Or put it into a proper table

  848. Dave Cridland has left

  849. winfried

    Ge0rG: our notekeeper is afk ;-)

  850. MattJ has left

  851. Ge0rG

    Sorry, I've vastly exceeded my timebox for this conference, and I need to catch up. I'm semi-AFK now while you figure out the legal grounds beyond R49

  852. pep.


  853. pep.

    I'm also usually storing debug logs on the server, and rotating them

  854. jubalh has joined

  855. moparisthebest has joined

  856. winfried

    lets see where we are now, I have to leave in 20 minutes too

  857. winfried

    we have come quite far with the c2s part of Q1.1

  858. pep.

    Yeah, this last bit was d)

  859. pep.

    For C2S

  860. Dave Cridland has left

  861. winfried

    still have the tough issue of s2s (federation) open

  862. pep.

    Ge0rG, "PEP in RAM", some server provide persistency here, and soon(tm) prosody as well. I would just put that with roster/bookmarks

  863. pep.

    Ge0rG, "PEP in RAM", some servers provide persistency here, and soon(tm) prosody as well. I would just put that with roster/bookmarks

  864. Ge0rG

    winfried: I have some information on federation, but I think we should make a follow up appointment

  865. winfried

    Ge0rG: +1

  866. goffi has left

  867. pep.

    Agreed for the follow-up, I think we can summarize quickly and call it a day

  868. pep.

    There's already quite a lot of stuff to digest

  869. Ge0rG

    pep.: you volunteered to create a page on the wiki with the content table, I've heard... 😀

  870. pep.


  871. winfried

    pep.: I can help building the wiki page

  872. winfried

    can we set a new date?

  873. jubalh has left

  874. Ge0rG

    winfried: yes please

  875. pep.

    This week? Next week? How quick do you want to figure this out

  876. Ge0rG

    This week, some day, same time

  877. winfried

    pep.: I prefer a short, compact, traject

  878. pep.

    +2 days? (wed)

  879. winfried

    pep.: works for me

  880. Ge0rG


  881. pep.


  882. pep.

    I'll try to send minutes soon

  883. winfried

    pep.: great, thanks a lot

  884. Ge0rG

    pep.: yay!

  885. jonasw

    wednesday doesn’t work for me

  886. jonasw

    sorry, I was distracted

  887. pep.

    +3 days? +4 doesn't work for me

  888. moparisthebest has joined

  889. jonasw

    I can’t make reliable statements about any day after wednesday until next weeks thursday

  890. Ge0rG

    Friday is so temptingly empty on the calendar...

  891. jonasw

    so the closest thing which would work would be tomorrow, ohterwise it’ll be best-effort on my side.

  892. winfried

    tomorrow works for me

  893. pep.

    I can do +4 but after 13CET. I can do +1 yes

  894. Ge0rG

    WFM too

  895. jonasw


  896. pep.

    ok, +1 day, 12CET

  897. jonasw

    12:15 CEST would be easier for me

  898. jonasw

    (as I learnt today)

  899. pep.

    ok, 12:15CET.

  900. Dave Cridland has left

  901. jonasw

    CEST please

  902. winfried


  903. jonasw

    not CET.

  904. jonasw

    (like today)

  905. pep.

    Ah, oh

  906. pep.


  907. Ge0rG

    pep.: CET will be again in half a year

  908. jonasw


  909. pep.

    Cool, +1 day 12:15CEST then.

  910. pep.


  911. jonasw

    thank you

  912. winfried applauses

  913. Ge0rG

    Thank *you*!

  914. winfried

    nice work guys!

  915. jonasw

    obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1883/

  916. Valerian has joined

  917. pep.

    Wait so what time is now now in CEST land

  918. Ge0rG

    pep.: CEST

  919. winfried


  920. Zash

    > 14:00:18 pep.> Wait so what time is now now in CEST land

  921. pep.


  922. pep.

    is it*

  923. Dave Cridland has left

  924. MattJ has left

  925. pep.

    jonasw, :D

  926. winfried

    yeah, had a laugh on that one too... though I like the idea of california drifting of the mainland :-P

  927. Valerian has left

  928. Valerian has joined

  929. daniel has left

  930. Dave Cridland has left

  931. Alex has left

  932. Dave Cridland has left

  933. Seve/SouL

    Was this meeting announced somewhere? I think I missed some information on this, didn't know this was going to happen

  934. Seve has joined

  935. winfried

    Seve/SouL: no, we just made the appointmet in this muc after last boardmeeting

  936. Dave Cridland has left

  937. winfried

    Seve/SouL: do you want to be involved?

  938. Dave Cridland has left

  939. MattJ has left

  940. vanitasvitae has left

  941. marmistrz has joined

  942. julius has left

  943. vanitasvitae has left

  944. daniel has left

  945. vanitasvitae has left

  946. vanitasvitae has joined

  947. vanitasvitae has left

  948. Seve/SouL

    Thank you winfried, it's not like I can help on this topic :) Just wondering if I was missing important events. Do not worry, thank you very much :)

  949. jonasw

    It *should* have been announced on members@

  950. jonasw

    in the board meeting minutes

  951. jonasw

    but apparently the minutes haven’t been sent yet

  952. Dave Cridland has left

  953. Dave Cridland has left

  954. Valerian has left

  955. Valerian has joined

  956. Dave Cridland has left

  957. tux has joined

  958. tux has joined

  959. jjrh has left

  960. winfried has joined

  961. jjrh has left

  962. pep.

    btw, anybody knows where I can find more info about the derogation mentioned in https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-13/

  963. Nekit has left

  964. Nekit has joined

  965. jonasw

    pep., https://gdpr-info.eu/art-30-gdpr/ 30.5

  966. jere has joined

  967. pep.

    jonasw, thanks

  968. pep.

    Now I'm not sure most services will fall under that derogation though.

  969. j.r has joined

  970. pep.

    "[..] unless [..] the processing is not occasional"

  971. Valerian has left

  972. pep.

    Ok I'll keep that for next time

  973. lskdjf has joined

  974. la|r|ma has joined

  975. Guus has left

  976. Guus has left

  977. ta has left

  978. ta has joined

  979. MattJ has left

  980. pep.

    > jonasw> some risk management articles: 5, and consent in 7 and 8, with proof What did you mean with "with proof"?

  981. Guus has left

  982. Zash

    > 2. This Regulation does not apply to the processing of personal data: > (c) by a natural person in the course of a purely personal or household activity;

  983. Zash

    How does that relate to self-hosting?

  984. pep.

    Yeah I was wondering as well. Will add that to the questions. I guess that's good when you do it for yourself, or with people that also have access to the machine and take care of it (xmpp service)? And doesn't qualify if you start giving accounts to people who don't?

  985. remko has joined

  986. alexis has left

  987. alexis has joined

  988. Dave Cridland has left

  989. nyco has left

  990. lumi has left

  991. lumi has joined

  992. jonasw

    pep., you probably need proof for consent

  993. Zash

    Has anyone figured out how to get consent over the Internet yet?

  994. Ge0rG

    Zash: [ ] I accept that you'll bend me over and take my virgi^W data

  995. jonasw

    my virginia drivers license? no way!

  996. Guus has left

  997. winfried

    Self hosting is an interesting case too!

  998. alexis has left

  999. alexis has joined

  1000. Ge0rG

    winfried: self-hosting for yourself or for others?

  1001. Guus has left

  1002. winfried

    > Has anyone figured out how to get consent over the Internet yet? Yes, there are quite clear cut rules for, technically not too complicated in matter of facts, de hardest part is asking the right question...

  1003. moparisthebest

    that's been solved a long time, you just pop up a 15,000 word EULA asking for everything in a tiny window and an 'Accept' button right?

  1004. MattJ has left

  1005. winfried

    Ge0rG: both are interesting! Though when it among a collective of friends or family it will probably be the same case, but good to check

  1006. winfried

    moparisthebest: that one has never been valid in the netherlands, if you can't download it in plain text or PDF, it was not legal and standard Dutch law applies!

  1007. jjrh has left

  1008. moparisthebest

    ctrl+c/ctrl+v downloaded in plain text and therefore legal

  1009. alexis has left

  1010. alexis has joined

  1011. alexis has left

  1012. alexis has joined

  1013. Ge0rG

    reminds me of the first generation of Facebook export, where you got a 500 page PDF file containing all your data.

  1014. winfried

    moparisthebest: nope, not valid here 😃

  1015. edhelas

    Ge0rG you can add &exportformat=xml-xmpp to the FB export URL

  1016. Dave Cridland has left

  1017. Ge0rG

    edhelas: I can't.

  1018. Ge0rG

    edhelas: because I don't have a Facebook account, I will never know what Facebook logs about me.

  1019. edhelas

    time to subscribe!

  1020. Guus has left

  1021. Zash

    The mysterious Shadow Ge0rG

  1022. alexis has joined

  1023. Alex has joined

  1024. flow


  1025. Guus has left

  1026. flow

    did the authors of this reach out to "us" (i.e. the xmpp community)?

  1027. MattJ has left

  1028. Zash

    -rfc 8280

  1029. Bunneh

    Zash: Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations. N. ten Oever, C. Cath. October 2017. (Status: INFORMATIONAL) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8280

  1030. Williams W has joined

  1031. Williams W has left

  1032. Zash


  1033. edhelas


  1034. j.r has joined

  1035. Zash

    Wait what

  1036. Zash

    > While the protocol does not specify that the resource must be exposed by the client's server to remote users, in practice this has become the default behavior.

  1037. Zash

    Well I suppose you can do without presence, but uh

  1038. Dave Cridland has left

  1039. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1040. waqas has joined

  1041. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1042. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1043. daniel

    Wait. So telling your contacts that you are available is a bad thing now?

  1044. LNJ has left

  1045. Guus has left

  1046. Zash

    flow: I'm not sure I immediately associate any of the authors or thanked people to XMPP

  1047. Ge0rG

    daniel: doesn't your client show a GDPR disclaimer before you accept a subscription?

  1048. marmistrz has left

  1049. daniel

    The death of pars

  1050. Ge0rG

    j.o is still down.

  1051. Zash

    -ping jabber.org

  1052. Bunneh

    Zash: Pong from jabber.org in 4.463 seconds

  1053. Ge0rG

    What? Why?

  1054. Ge0rG

    Oh, poezio won't auto-rejoin on its own. Sorry.

  1055. Zash

    Because IPv6

  1056. Dave Cridland has left

  1057. Zash

    Only Legacy IP is affected.

  1058. Ge0rG

    Zash: s2s IPv6 failed today as well. I blame prosody

  1059. Ge0rG

    | -> conference.jabber.org [s2sout56531a7fbce0] (authenticated) (encrypted) (IPv6) | <- conference.jabber.org [s2sin5653218deb10] (authenticated) (encrypted)

  1060. Ge0rG

    There is an interesting discrepancy.

  1061. MattJ has left

  1062. moparisthebest

    firewall is blocking incoming ipv4 but not outgoing ipv4

  1063. Zash

    DoS protection or something?

  1064. Ge0rG


  1065. intosi

    No, firewall blocks ipv4 the main address, both ingress and egress.

  1066. intosi

    I added temp a secondary IP.

  1067. Ge0rG

    Ah, that also explains why it didn't work at all in the beginning.

  1068. Ge0rG

    I suppose the fallback to IPv6 egress didn't happen?

  1069. intosi

    It kinda did, but not entirely.

  1070. Ge0rG

    We really need better debugging tools. Something like a dynamic log where we can easily filter by JID

  1071. Ge0rG

    Maybe I need to dump all my prosody logs into something like kibana or elasticsearch.

  1072. alexis has joined

  1073. alexis has left

  1074. alexis has joined

  1075. MattJ

    I was looking into elasticsearch for MAM...

  1076. MattJ

    I think it's overkill though

  1077. Ge0rG

    MattJ: not for MAM, for log analysis

  1078. MattJ

    I know, my message was semi-unrelated

  1079. Kev

    I put my logs into elasticsearch for a while and didn't find any use for it so stopped.

  1080. Ge0rG

    it would be great to have a mod_log_json which would dump structured records of each event via some socket interface

  1081. Zash

    Was dog-something related to logs, or just stats?

  1082. Ge0rG

    Kev: yesterday I sent a message to a MUC on my server from my mobile client, and it was rejected. As I don't have logs from the mobile, there is no way to find out what happened now.

  1083. MattJ

    Zash, Datadog added log support recently (it might still be in beta, not sure)

  1084. alexis has joined

  1085. Kev

    Ge0rG: Me not finding a use for something and it not being useful aren't quite the same thing. Despite me obviously being the center of the world.

  1086. Ge0rG

    Kev: let me remind you of H2G2.

  1087. rion has left

  1088. Guus has left

  1089. MattJ has left

  1090. Guus has left

  1091. vanitasvitae has joined

  1092. Dave Cridland has left

  1093. waqas has left

  1094. Dave Cridland has left

  1095. Guus has left

  1096. Valerian has joined

  1097. jere has joined

  1098. Dave Cridland has left

  1099. MattJ has left

  1100. waqas has joined

  1101. alexis has joined

  1102. MattJ has left

  1103. marmistrz has left

  1104. Yagiza has joined

  1105. Syndace has left

  1106. j.r has joined

  1107. j.r has joined

  1108. Maranda has joined

  1109. moparisthebest has joined

  1110. alexis has left

  1111. LNJ has joined

  1112. alexis has joined

  1113. Maranda


  1114. Maranda

    🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔

  1115. Ge0rG


  1116. moparisthebest has joined

  1117. MattJ has left

  1118. edhelas

    let's remove emojis support from XMPP ;-)

  1119. Ge0rG

    let's remove Maranda support from xsf@ :PP

  1120. Zash


  1121. intosi

    stty -emoji ?

  1122. Maranda


  1123. Maranda


  1124. edhelas

    with XHTML-IM I can send images to all the XMPP clients, so ASCII-only will do

  1125. Ge0rG

    My console has a perfect two-way mapping of Unicode Emoji to ASCII. It only ever failed on foo:iq:bar

  1126. waqas has left

  1127. waqas has joined

  1128. waqas has left

  1129. waqas has joined

  1130. LNJ has left

  1131. LNJ has joined

  1132. alexis has left

  1133. alexis has joined

  1134. Guus has left

  1135. alexis has left

  1136. MattJ has left

  1137. Dave Cridland has left

  1138. Kev has left

  1139. daniel has left

  1140. Guus has left

  1141. alexis has joined

  1142. Maranda

    Ge0rG, and male emojis *coughs*

  1143. Maranda has good memory.

  1144. Maranda ... for now :P

  1145. pep.

    Zash, can you reply to the minutes I just sent for your question earlier?

  1146. pep.

    Under Q1.1.a I guess

  1147. pep.

    (re personal/household activity)

  1148. alexis has left

  1149. alexis has joined

  1150. daniel has left

  1151. MattJ has left

  1152. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1153. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1154. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1155. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1156. moparisthebest has left

  1157. Ge0rG

    Are <stanza-id> elements mandatory in MUC history playback on a MAM-enabled MUC?

  1158. alexis has left

  1159. alexis has joined

  1160. Zash

    Please wait for food coma to subside

  1161. Zash

    pep.: Please wait for food coma to subside

  1162. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1163. Ge0rG

    pep.: to the time machine! 😁 > Date of Next: 2018/03/17

  1164. pep.

    ah merde

  1165. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1166. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1167. Ge0rG

    pep.: let me read the whole thing before you send out an update :D

  1168. pep.


  1169. ralphm has left

  1170. pep.

    We do cover c) with some stuff in b), I guess I could have split that

  1171. Ge0rG

    pep.: okay, everything else is fine with me :)

  1172. LNJ has left

  1173. Ge0rG

    pep.: thanks for taking minutes, and it's nice to see the conscise form of the discussion

  1174. pep.


  1175. Ge0rG

    pep.: maybe members@ is not the right venue, though

  1176. jonasw

    I feel it is the righter venue than standards@

  1177. ralphm has joined

  1178. Maranda has joined

  1179. pep.

    Yeah I was wondering, I'm not sure

  1180. Ge0rG

    jonasw: what do you feel is the most rightest one?

  1181. pep.

    But I don't think it should be in standards. if any I would have put that in operators as well maybe

  1182. jonasw

    I think members@ is a good start for now

  1183. jonasw

    we might want to cross-post to operators@ at some point.

  1184. pep.


  1185. jonasw

    pep., hmm, now that I think of it, getting people from operators@ on board could be a good idea

  1186. jonasw

    pep., could you forward the mail to operators@ with a fixed dat?

  1187. jonasw

    pep., could you forward the mail to operators@ with a fixed date? maybe someone will show up.

  1188. pep.


  1189. Zash


  1190. alexis has left

  1191. alexis has joined

  1192. MattJ has left

  1193. ralphm has joined

  1194. la|r|ma has left

  1195. ralphm has joined

  1196. lumi has left

  1197. alexis has left

  1198. alexis has joined

  1199. lumi has joined

  1200. Ge0rG

    Zash: you are the one with the conversion magic skills. I'm looking for a way to convert https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid/ into something I can read on a mobile device

  1201. ralphm has joined

  1202. Zash

    Ge0rG: How is the HTML?

  1203. jonasw

    Ge0rG, xml2rfc --raw?

  1204. Ge0rG

    Zash: it sucks.

  1205. Ge0rG

    It's like ASCII text, but with added references.

  1206. Zash

    And the text/plain?

  1207. Zash


  1208. jonasw

    hm, --raw isn’t great

  1209. Zash

    xml2rfc had a better html output when I tried it the other day

  1210. Ge0rG

    I want something like epub, where the text reflow is controlled by the client UI in accordance with my font settings and viewport size.

  1211. MattJ

    It has ASCII diagrams in it

  1212. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I can live with horizontal scrolling on those.

  1213. Zash

    Ge0rG: How is this on your device? https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html

  1214. jonasw

    Ge0rG, xml2rfc --html

  1215. Zash

    That's (I think) what you get from `xml2rfc --html`

  1216. jonasw

    Ge0rG, https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid-05.html example

  1217. jonasw

    the width is set dynamically

  1218. LNJ has joined

  1219. jonasw

    (it is just a max-width)

  1220. Ge0rG


  1221. jonasw

    which is good

  1222. MattJ has left

  1223. jonasw has left

  1224. MattJ

    "Using the XMPP publish-subscribe extension [XEP-0030],"

  1225. Ge0rG

    jonasw: your rendering sets the width to 75% of my screen, but at least I can zoom in the other 25%, making the size almost bearable

  1226. jonasw


  1227. jonasw

    I tried it on my device

  1228. jonasw


  1229. jonasw

    Ge0rG, interestingly, the ctrl+shift+m thing on firefox which is supposed to emulate mobile devices does it better than the actual mobile firefox.

  1230. ralphm has joined

  1231. alexis has left

  1232. alexis has joined

  1233. la|r|ma has joined

  1234. Ge0rG

    Really, can't we just have epub/mobi? With HTML, browser vendors haven't figured out to remember the screen position I stopped reading at. In 2018. It's a shame.

  1235. Ge0rG

    Almost as bad as XMPP.

  1236. pep.

    Ge0rG, they do? don't they?

  1237. pep.

    FF does that for me

  1238. lskdjf has left

  1239. jonasw

    Ge0rG, reload mine

  1240. Ge0rG

    pep.: sometimes they do, but as soon as they have to rerender the page, all bets are off

  1241. jonasw

    oh reader mode actually works fine

  1242. jonasw

    on that rendering

  1243. jonasw

    so maybe just use that

  1244. jonasw

    meh,e xcept for the ascii diagrams of course

  1245. Ge0rG

    The Debian man page for xml2rfc is awesome as well: > The xml2rfc script requires python 2, with a version of 2.6 or higher. Can't proceed, quitting.

  1246. Zash

    Can haz xml2rfc2epub ?

  1247. jonasw

    Ge0rG, re-try my rendering. you have to zoom in because of the diagrams, but otherwise it should be fine

  1248. moparisthebest

    I've pretty much given in to the fact that I'll always be required to have python 2 and 3 on every computer forever

  1249. Zash

    Ge0rG: pandoc can turn html into epub, but it's usually kinda messy

  1250. jonasw

    it’s xml2rfc with <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1" /> added

  1251. Ge0rG

    jonasw: how do I do "Reader mode" on mobile FF?

  1252. marc has joined

  1253. jonasw

    it’s next to the address bar

  1254. Zash

    gah, forgot to enter my email password

  1255. Ge0rG

    Ah. Thanks. It even supports changing the font size. Almost awesome.

  1256. jonasw

    Ge0rG, yeah, aside from the ascii art diagrams :(

  1257. Ge0rG

    But still not epub. I don't trust it to remember my reading position over the next OOM kill.

  1258. jonasw

    it won’t probably

  1259. Zash

    Whoever thought having the same keybinding for "back" and "quit" in mutt ...

  1260. jonasw

    you should’ve said that at the beginning, Ge0rG

  1261. jonasw


  1262. Ge0rG

    And it's grey on grey.

  1263. jonasw

    it’s black on white here

  1264. Zash

    Ge0rG: pandoc blah.html -o blah.epub ?

  1265. Zash

    or -s -o b blah.markdown and tweak it a bit then -o epub

  1266. Zash

    Basically how I read blags these days

  1267. Syndace has joined

  1268. Zash has left

  1269. Ge0rG

    Okay, epub has great text rendering, but the ASCII diagrams are unusable :D

  1270. Ge0rG

    Thanks everyone.

  1271. Ge0rG

    jonasw: FF reader mode is light-grey on dark-grey. I have no idea who thought that's a good idea.

  1272. Dave Cridland has left

  1273. jonasw

    Ge0rG, switch the color scheme

  1274. alexis has left

  1275. jonasw

    it defaults to auto

  1276. alexis has joined

  1277. jonasw

    maybe something is weird on your device

  1278. jonasw

    (it’s in the same menu as the font size)

  1279. Ge0rG

    jonasw: mine is "dark", and that's a low-contrast theme.

  1280. daniel has left

  1281. jonasw

    switch to light.

  1282. alexis has left

  1283. Ge0rG

    it's better contrast, but I actually wanted a dark theme.

  1284. marmistrz has joined

  1285. alexis has joined

  1286. Ge0rG

    okay, my FBReader might be a bit extreme, 50% red on 100% black

  1287. Maranda

    Infamous "Disco Pub(Sub)" xep

  1288. Ge0rG

    but it's great for OLED display reading at night

  1289. Maranda

    Now I understand Yaxim's colour scheme reason.

  1290. Ge0rG &

  1291. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I feel you might actually want redshift instead.

  1292. jonasw

    (or LiveDisplay how LineageOS calls it)

  1293. Guus has left

  1294. ralphm has joined

  1295. jonasw

    the most amazing thing invented for displays

  1296. jonasw

    (also known as f.lux or xflux)

  1297. MattJ has left

  1298. marc has left

  1299. alexis has left

  1300. alexis has joined

  1301. Nekit has left

  1302. Guus has left

  1303. alexis has left

  1304. alexis has joined

  1305. Nekit has joined

  1306. marc has joined

  1307. Steve Kille has left

  1308. SaltyBones has left

  1309. Steve Kille has left

  1310. alexis has joined

  1311. MattJ has left

  1312. Steve Kille has joined

  1313. MattJ has left

  1314. alexis has left

  1315. alexis has joined

  1316. j.r has joined

  1317. sezuan has left

  1318. jere has joined

  1319. Zash has left

  1320. j.r has joined

  1321. marc has left

  1322. jere has joined

  1323. alexis has left

  1324. alexis has joined

  1325. lovetox has joined

  1326. Valerian has left

  1327. Valerian has joined

  1328. SaltyBones has left

  1329. alexis has left

  1330. alexis has joined

  1331. SaltyBones has joined

  1332. lovetox has left

  1333. lovetox has joined

  1334. SaltyBones has left

  1335. jonasw

    pep., I forgot to say it, thanks a lot for taking the minutes :-)

  1336. alexis has left

  1337. alexis has joined

  1338. LNJ has left

  1339. pep.

    You're welcome

  1340. alexis has left

  1341. alexis has joined

  1342. pep.

    I forgot to specify maybe we haven't treated S2S cases yet, and that's going to come later on. Will indicate that tomorrow

  1343. marc has joined

  1344. daniel has left

  1345. Zash

    How's jabber.org doing?

  1346. rion has left

  1347. sezuan has left

  1348. ralphm has left

  1349. j.r has joined

  1350. winfried has left

  1351. LNJ has joined

  1352. SamWhited has left

  1353. jubalh has left

  1354. ralphm has joined

  1355. goffi has left

  1356. j.r has joined

  1357. LNJ has left

  1358. Guus has left

  1359. Lance has joined

  1360. Valerian has left

  1361. daniel has left

  1362. mimi89999 has left

  1363. mimi89999 has left

  1364. Dave Cridland has left

  1365. Dave Cridland has left

  1366. Dave Cridland has left

  1367. Dave Cridland has left

  1368. Guus has left

  1369. ibikk has joined

  1370. Seve/SouL has joined

  1371. LNJ has joined

  1372. Dave Cridland has left

  1373. Dave Cridland has left

  1374. ibikk has left

  1375. ibikk has joined

  1376. marc has left

  1377. ralphm has joined

  1378. marc has left

  1379. marmistrz has left

  1380. Dave Cridland has left

  1381. Dave Cridland has left

  1382. Dave Cridland has left

  1383. ibikk has left

  1384. Guus has left

  1385. Kev has left

  1386. Dave Cridland has left

  1387. jubalh has joined

  1388. marmistrz has joined

  1389. jere has joined

  1390. Nekit has joined

  1391. Nekit has joined

  1392. Nekit has joined

  1393. j.r has left

  1394. j.r has joined

  1395. Kev has joined

  1396. jere has left

  1397. Dave Cridland has left

  1398. Dave Cridland has left

  1399. Dave Cridland has left

  1400. vanitasvitae has left

  1401. ralphm has left

  1402. andrey.g has joined

  1403. Dave Cridland has left

  1404. Dave Cridland has left

  1405. andrey.g has joined

  1406. andrey.g has joined

  1407. Dave Cridland has left

  1408. andrey.g has joined

  1409. Guus has left

  1410. Dave Cridland has left

  1411. SamWhited has joined

  1412. Dave Cridland has left

  1413. andrey.g has joined

  1414. andrey.g has joined

  1415. Dave Cridland has left

  1416. Dave Cridland has left

  1417. Dave Cridland has left

  1418. Dave Cridland has joined

  1419. andrey.g has joined

  1420. Dave Cridland has left

  1421. andrey.g has joined

  1422. lskdjf has left

  1423. andrey.g has joined

  1424. andrey.g has joined

  1425. andrey.g has joined

  1426. efrit has joined

  1427. andrey.g has joined

  1428. la|r|ma has joined

  1429. Guus has left

  1430. andrey.g has joined

  1431. andrey.g has joined

  1432. Dave Cridland has left

  1433. andrey.g has joined

  1434. andrey.g has joined

  1435. jere has joined

  1436. jonasw

    I’m joined in jdev@

  1437. jere has joined

  1438. jere has joined

  1439. jonasw

    so I assume I got lucky with ipv6?

  1440. jonasw

    v4 still blackholes

  1441. Guus has left

  1442. Lance has left

  1443. suzyo has joined

  1444. andrey.g has joined

  1445. andrey.g has joined

  1446. Dave Cridland has left

  1447. ibikk has left

  1448. andrey.g has joined

  1449. andrey.g has joined

  1450. Dave Cridland has left

  1451. andrey.g has joined

  1452. andrey.g has joined

  1453. pep.

    yay presence-less clients. andrey.g is spamming the room with join/parts :x

  1454. Dave Cridland has left

  1455. andrey.g has joined

  1456. andrey.g has joined

  1457. lskdjf has joined

  1458. lskdjf has joined

  1459. marmistrz has joined

  1460. SaltyBones has joined

  1461. Kev has left

  1462. andrey.g has joined

  1463. andrey.g has joined

  1464. Yagiza has left

  1465. andrey.g has joined

  1466. andrey.g has joined

  1467. Holger has left

  1468. jubalh has left

  1469. andrey.g has joined

  1470. andrey.g has joined

  1471. j.r has joined

  1472. Dave Cridland has left

  1473. Dave Cridland has left

  1474. andrey.g has joined

  1475. andrey.g has joined

  1476. Alex has left

  1477. andrey.g has joined

  1478. andrey.g has joined

  1479. Alex has joined

  1480. jubalh has joined

  1481. Dave Cridland has left

  1482. andrey.g has joined

  1483. andrey.g has joined

  1484. Dave Cridland has left

  1485. efrit has left

  1486. sezuan has left

  1487. Lance has joined

  1488. andrey.g has joined

  1489. andrey.g has joined

  1490. andrey.g has joined

  1491. andrey.g has joined

  1492. nyco has left

  1493. j.r has left

  1494. j.r has joined

  1495. ralphm has joined

  1496. ta has left

  1497. ta has joined

  1498. andrey.g has joined

  1499. goffi has left

  1500. andrey.g has joined

  1501. Neustradamus has joined

  1502. la|r|ma has joined

  1503. jubalh has left

  1504. ibikk has joined

  1505. andrey.g has joined

  1506. andrey.g has joined

  1507. Alex has left

  1508. andrey.g has joined

  1509. andrey.g has joined

  1510. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1511. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1512. Dave Cridland has left

  1513. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1514. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1515. Dave Cridland has left

  1516. andrey.g has joined

  1517. andrey.g has joined

  1518. Dave Cridland has left

  1519. vanitasvitae has joined

  1520. Dave Cridland has left

  1521. Dave Cridland has left

  1522. Dave Cridland has joined

  1523. remko has left

  1524. Dave Cridland has left

  1525. andrey.g has joined

  1526. suzyo has joined

  1527. andrey.g has joined

  1528. andrey.g has joined

  1529. edhelas has left

  1530. Dave Cridland has left

  1531. andrey.g has joined

  1532. edhelas has left

  1533. andrey.g has joined

  1534. test has joined

  1535. test has left

  1536. waqas has left

  1537. waqas has joined

  1538. Dave Cridland has left

  1539. andrey.g has joined

  1540. lumi has joined

  1541. andrey.g has joined

  1542. Dave Cridland has left

  1543. LNJ has left

  1544. waqas has left

  1545. waqas has joined

  1546. lskdjf has joined

  1547. lumi has joined

  1548. andrey.g has joined

  1549. andrey.g has joined

  1550. ThibG has joined

  1551. andrey.g has joined

  1552. andrey.g has joined

  1553. Dave Cridland has left

  1554. Dave Cridland has left

  1555. LNJ has joined

  1556. Dave Cridland has left

  1557. Dave Cridland has joined

  1558. Dave Cridland has left

  1559. Dave Cridland has joined

  1560. andrey.g has joined

  1561. andrey.g has joined

  1562. Zash has left

  1563. Dave Cridland has left

  1564. andrey.g has joined

  1565. vanitasvitae has left

  1566. efrit has joined

  1567. lskdjf has joined

  1568. Dave Cridland has left

  1569. suzyo has joined

  1570. andrey.g has joined

  1571. andrey.g has joined

  1572. ralphm has joined

  1573. marmistrz has left

  1574. Dave Cridland has left

  1575. andrey.g has joined

  1576. efrit has left

  1577. andrey.g has joined

  1578. jubalh has joined

  1579. Dave Cridland has left

  1580. Dave Cridland has left

  1581. suzyo has joined

  1582. Dave Cridland has left

  1583. ibikk has left

  1584. andrey.g has joined

  1585. jjrh has left

  1586. andrey.g has joined

  1587. jubalh has joined

  1588. Dave Cridland has left

  1589. Dave Cridland has left

  1590. andrey.g has joined

  1591. Dave Cridland has left

  1592. Kev has joined

  1593. andrey.g has joined

  1594. Dave Cridland has left

  1595. andrey.g has joined

  1596. LNJ has left

  1597. andrey.g has joined

  1598. andrey.g has joined

  1599. jere has joined

  1600. andrey.g has joined

  1601. marc has joined

  1602. Zash has left

  1603. andrey.g has joined

  1604. jubalh has left

  1605. andrey.g has joined

  1606. SamWhited has joined

  1607. ralphm has left

  1608. ralphm has joined

  1609. andrey.g has joined

  1610. andrey.g has joined

  1611. alexis has joined

  1612. andrey.g has joined

  1613. andrey.g has joined

  1614. jjrh has left

  1615. alexis has left

  1616. alexis has joined

  1617. jjrh has left

  1618. andrey.g has joined

  1619. moparisthebest

    TLS 1.3 approved https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-announce/current/msg17592.html

  1620. andrey.g has joined

  1621. alexis has left

  1622. alexis has joined

  1623. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1624. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1625. andrey.g has joined

  1626. ta has joined

  1627. alexis has left

  1628. alexis has joined

  1629. pep.


  1630. Zash

    So, does it hide SNI and ALPN or did the firewall vendors manage to block that?

  1631. Zash

    Seemed to go back and forth a bit on that IIRC

  1632. Dave Cridland has left

  1633. jjrh has left

  1634. Maranda has left

  1635. marmistrz has left

  1636. marmistrz has joined

  1637. Dave Cridland has left

  1638. Dave Cridland has left

  1639. Maranda has left

  1640. Dave Cridland has left

  1641. Dave Cridland has left

  1642. andrey.g has joined

  1643. Guus has left

  1644. jere has joined

  1645. ralphm has joined

  1646. Tobias has joined

  1647. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1648. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1649. Guus has left

  1650. Guus has joined

  1651. Neustradamus has left

  1652. Tobias has joined

  1653. lovetox has left

  1654. winfried has left

  1655. waqas has left

  1656. Zash has left

  1657. Tobias has left

  1658. nyco has left

  1659. Tobias has left