XSF Discussion - 2018-03-28

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  181. jonasw moparisthebest, I’m pretty sure that that’s not true. if only on the grounds that small parts would lack the Schöpfungshöhe (that’s the german term, sorry I don’t know the proper english one) to even be copyrightable.
  182. jonasw like, some constants which are irrelevant to the working of the protocol and are merely there to establish compatbility
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  219. Zash jonasw: The being-enough-work-ines?
  220. jonasw Zash, yeah, kinda
  221. jonasw like, I could probably not claim copyright on a poem like: Foo, the bar, frobnitzed the dingus.
  222. jonasw for certain definitions of poem
  223. jonasw then again, that might be dadaistic enough to work, but whatevre.
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  225. Zash "Verkshöjd"
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  227. jonasw is that a composed word of some kind? I get "verk", but I can’t interpret "shöjd"
  228. Zash Work-height basically
  229. jonasw ah, that makes sense
  230. jonasw so verks-höjd
  231. Zash Yeah
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  233. jonasw yeah, schöpfungs-höhe is creation-height
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  258. pep. https://www.fastcompany.com/40547684/slack-picked-a-weird-time-to-make-it-easier-for-bosses-to-download-your-private-chats
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  297. flow I believe that the idea to distribute the persistent groupchat archives over multiple servers by having the participant's server also hosting a copy of the channel archive is a desirable. But Georg got me thinking. It would be great if the participant's service could re-use the stanza-id's from the MIX channel in it's own archive for the user. That would be a great advantage in multiple aspects. We could possibly achieve this by moving the participant's copy of the MIX channel archive into a PEP node with the channel's JID as node name. Thoughts?
  298. flow I believe that the idea to distribute the persistent groupchat archives over multiple servers by having the participant's server also hosting a copy of the channel archive is desirable. But Georg got me thinking. It would be great if the participant's service could re-use the stanza-id's from the MIX channel in it's own archive for the user. That would be a great advantage in multiple aspects. We could possibly achieve this by moving the participant's copy of the MIX channel archive into a PEP node with the channel's JID as node name. Thoughts?
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  300. flow failed using poezio's LMC…
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  302. jonasw what
  303. jonasw what would the advantages be?
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  305. Ge0rG everybody would see which MUCs you are in!
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  365. Syndace There we go! I'm exited to announce the release of my python-omemo implementation, which can be found on https://github.com/Syndace/python-omemo! I'll try to be in the jdev@ and xsf@ mucs as much as possible to answer questions and fix bugs in the next weeks and I really hope this release will help OMEMO to improve.
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  367. MattJ Syndace, great news :) You should send an [ANN] to the jdev mailing list as well, for the client developers who are not in the MUCs
  368. MattJ (if you haven't already)
  369. rion Syndace: does gajim use it already?
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  372. Syndace rion: no, it was private until five minutes ago ^^
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  374. rion =)
  375. Zash For each client written in python, ask "Does {client} use it already?"
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  377. rion One day I'll make a plugin for Psi to load python extensions =)
  378. Kev I did that with the original plugin implementation about 13 years ago, I think :)
  379. rion and javascript
  380. Zash Better avoid Lua tho, wouldn't wanna touch a language specifically designed for embedding. :)
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  383. MattJ Save that for writing servers
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  391. ralphm Kev: I might have missed it, but is there a writeup for the so-called "xmpp2 routing" stuff discussed at FOSDEM?
  392. ralphm (or really, the Summit)
  393. Ge0rG ralphm: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_2.0 is probably the best resource, but pre-summit
  394. Ge0rG ralphm: also https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
  395. Kev ralphm: I think JC sent out minutes from the summit.
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  398. Kev https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Minutes_of_the_2018_Summit:_Day_one#1.1._Message_Routing
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  401. ralphm Thanks. It seems that the examples in the XMPP_2.0 wiki page are more fleshed out, but maybe we should have an actual XEP on this. I hear this being talked about a lot, but now having people implementing it (here) this is still a bit vague.
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  407. MattJ ralphm, who is implementing it? I think it's a bit too early and vague for that...
  408. MattJ It has multiple unresolved issues
  409. MattJ "xmpp 2.0" is more a direction than a protocol
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  412. Zash The direction started by Carbons and MAM, prompted by mobile clients and "all messages on all devices" thing?
  413. MattJ Zash, I guess. But regardless of that, I don't think there is any denying that the proposed changes simplify a lot of things
  414. ralphm MattJ: my own team
  415. ralphm MattJ: and I'm talking about MIX, not XMPP 2.0.
  416. ralphm MattJ: however, part of MIX in its current form is a dependency on things handled by the participant's local server (roster integration, PAM).
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  419. ralphm I'm also unsure how it works if a client only wants to receive notifications for a subset of the pubsub nodes subscribed to by the bare JID when joining the room.
  420. flow Syndace, +1
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  425. ralphm Or is that not a usecase that is covered by MIX?
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  429. Zash Pretty sure that was part of the whole MIX design. Possibly handled by the pubsub-account stuff?
  430. ralphm Well, I can see that you can specify which pubsub nodes you want to subscribe to when joining a channel, I don't see how you can differentiate between different resources.
  431. ralphm (or whether this is actually a desirable feature)
  432. Kev ralphm: I can write up a 'new IM routing rules' XEP, at least an early version, it's on my TODO (along with quite a depressing amount of spec work, actually).
  433. ralphm Kev: cool. Does it correspond with that wiki page that Ge0rG linked, or is it different from that?
  434. Kev As for selective filtering of pubsub notifications I think that's a thing that is outside MIX or routing-NG.
  435. Zash Daves PAM?
  436. Kev I'm using "XMPP 2" to talk about how all these moving parts fit together sensibly, FWIW. It's too easy to change one bit in isolation and end up with a patchwork that doesn't do what's needed (see interactions between Carbons and MAM, for example).
  437. ralphm Kev: ok, but I'm still curious how it works, because now you're subscribed with the bare JID, you can't use CAPS filtering
  438. Kev Zash: It's PAMish, yes.
  439. Kev ralphm: You can, it's just a different you.
  440. ralphm Kev: what do you mean?
  441. Zash Bunneh: xep pam
  442. Bunneh Zash: Pubsub Account Management (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0376.html
  443. Kev ralphm: I mean that PAM is going to do filtering on the recipient side, when some clients aren't interested in some stuff to which a different client subscribed.
  444. Kev I think this actually goes far beyond pubsub, though.
  445. ralphm But I thought you said that with XMPP 2 routing you wouldn't need PAM?
  446. Kev You don't need some aspects of PAM, yea, but you still need something somewhere doing something.
  447. Kev Take the example people keep giving of not wanting a 5000-user MUC sending messages to your phone unless you're actively viewing it at the moment.
  448. Kev Which goes beyond selective filtering of pubsub notifications.
  449. Kev But does tie into the push and highlighting rules.
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  451. Kev I did put some thoughts into https://github.com/Kev/xeps/blob/58153226d6caf93fbb2b4d3fbd9819e814942e37/inbox/multi-client.xml before the Summit, with the aim of getting it published as a rough overview of how everything comes together in xmpp 2.
  452. Kev Perhaps I should tidy it up a bit and get it submitted so we can have something outside the wiki.
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  492. ralphm That'd be great
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  509. Kev I'm going to make activation of IM-NG an iq after bind, on the basis that it can then be wrapped up inside bind2.
  510. ralphm interesting
  511. Ge0rG how do you wrap an IQ into bind2?
  512. Kev Ge0rG: TBD.
  513. Kev But in principle by saying "also activate these things please".
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  515. Ge0rG I'm not quite convinced.
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  545. MattJ daniel, is it the case that if an oob payload is in a message, Conversations only shows the attachment if <body> == URL?
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  549. daniel Either body == oob
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  551. daniel Or just oob set and no body
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  553. MattJ Does it use <desc>?
  554. daniel The first one is the one I usually expect. The later is only a bonus if you will
  555. daniel No
  556. daniel i can make it use desc on the sending side if you want me to
  557. MattJ Trying to figure out how I can send an image with a piece of text that works in clients whether they support oob or not
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  559. MattJ e.g. I could do: <body>[some description]: [some url]</body> along with the oob payload
  560. MattJ But then Conversations wouldn't handle it the "nice way" (and I have no idea about other clients)
  561. moparisthebest what if you just send the image, followed by the description, in 2 different messages?
  562. MattJ as you raised on the mailing list, I think this is partly an issue with XEP-0066 being used differently to how it was originally intended, so the XEP doesn't help clarify things
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  565. Zash moparisthebest: you could, but it'd be ... not nice.
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  567. MattJ moparisthebest, not ideal, but I considered it
  568. MattJ it's really more supposed to be like a caption for the image/file
  569. MattJ or a title, or something
  570. MattJ Imagine I sent multiple in a row. It wouldn't be clear if the text applied to the one above or the one below
  571. moparisthebest might just be the only thing that works well across everything *today*, come up with something better for the future :)
  572. Zash `body := url \n desc` would have been nice
  573. daniel don‘t let that stop you from coming up with something 'nice' but don’t expect Conversations to handle image and text in the same message any time soon
  574. MattJ daniel, is that just because of UI limitations?
  575. daniel the internal db is way too messed up for that
  576. MattJ Ok
  577. daniel and UI
  578. daniel but that's more 'solveable' than the db
  579. moparisthebest MattJ, yea I hit that problem with websites all the time, I'd think people would be used to it (if the first thing is an image, then description follows, if first thing is a description, then image follows)
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  587. MattJ moparisthebest, except in an IM conversation, the first thing will generally always be text :)
  588. MattJ Maybe we should specify a new XEP for <hr> over XMPP
  589. moparisthebest then send the text first :)
  590. MattJ <message><body>----------------</body><hr xmlns="urn:xmpp:hr:0"/></message>
  591. moparisthebest me doing something:
  592. moparisthebest <image here>
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  594. Kev MattJ: FWIW, we're currently starting to support this through references.
  595. MattJ Kev, "we"? Swift? XMPP?
  596. Kev Swift.
  597. Kev Initially dealing with images, then looking at other things.
  598. MattJ XEP number..?
  599. Kev (FDP next, which is probably of limited interest to lots of people, but important for us)
  600. MattJ "references doesn't find anything on /extensions/)
  601. Zash Kev: Does this include nice ways for bots to attach special annotations?
  602. MattJ "references" doesn't find anything on /extensions/)
  603. Zash -xep references
  604. Bunneh Zash: References (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0372.html
  605. Kev 372, although Edwin's about to do an update with more useful stuff like mime types etc.
  606. Kev Zash: Yes.
  607. MattJ Oh, deferred
  608. Ge0rG I fear a bit that 372 is the MIX of message references.
  609. MattJ Ok, so now I have 4 ways to communicate images to clients? :)
  610. MattJ <body>, <html>, <x oob> and <reference>
  611. MattJ and then should be able to support every client
  612. Zash -xep message attaching
  613. Bunneh Zash: Message Attaching (Standards Track, Deferred, 2017-09-11) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0367.html
  614. ThibG has joined
  615. MattJ except Conversations won't show the image even though it could
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  617. MattJ Can we just pick one?
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  619. daniel I'll probably support Sims at some point
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  621. MattJ 5
  622. daniel Or references. What ever the best practices will be
  623. daniel I thought Sims = references
  624. Kev Kinda.
  625. Kev Sims binds a transfer mechanism on top of references.
  626. Kev So it's a Reference with additional information on how to start a file transfer to get it.
  627. Ge0rG I thought Sims binds a green crystal on top of avatar heads.
  628. Kev I think we need to move towards References so we can do things like @mentions and the like sensibly.
  629. Zash -xkcd 927
  630. Bunneh https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
  631. daniel Kev: how would you attach an image with a reference w/o using Sims?
  632. Ge0rG daniel: http upload URI?
  633. Kev Define 'attach'.
  634. Ge0rG Kev: what about E2EE?
  635. MattJ Kev, so to get Swift to do what I want, I should follow XEP-372 or XEP-0385?
  636. Kev It's a reference to a URI, so you provide the image somehow (e.g. HTTP Upload) and then reference it.
  637. daniel I thought that's what Sims was
  638. daniel Only more specific to media
  639. daniel Whereas references are generic
  640. Kev MattJ: What exactly was it you wanted?
  641. Kev daniel: References are fairly generic, and Sims uses References.
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  644. MattJ Send an image with attached text, or text with attached image, whichever way you want to view it
  645. alexis has joined
  646. MattJ oob url + desc does what I want already, except it's lacking client support
  647. Kev The image also needs to be transferred? Or that exists already?
  648. MattJ I have a URL for it
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  650. Kev 372 it.
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  652. Kev I expect this to be on trunk in the next couple of days in an early state (receiving, anyway, how to do this sending sensibly is a much harder question).
  653. MattJ 372 feels strange for image attachment
  654. MattJ Looks like it wants a character range
  655. MattJ Which in my case is easily done - the entire message
  656. jonasw whereas "character" is not properly defined.
  657. MattJ But if I only set the range to half the message, what would it show?
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  660. Kev In the case of image URIs, Swift's not going to do much of anything with the range, and you could elide either the range or the URI in the body ok.
  661. Ge0rG Also should it hide the referenced text? use it as an alt tag?
  662. Ge0rG We need to have the URI in the body for legacy clients.
  663. Kev It's more interesting when you've got something like @MattJ and you want to link that to the appropriate user in the UI.
  664. MattJ Sure, I understand it for that use-case
  665. MattJ For my current one however, it feels wrong
  666. Kev Just don't include a range :)
  667. jonasw I’d also like to have a range-less thing which uses SIMS syntax. kinda like OOB with more metadata.
  668. jonasw but how to handle cases when there /is/ a range
  669. MattJ Oh wait, it's optional, ok
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  673. Tobias MattJ, what do you think about 385? But that probably shares similar problems as references. At least on the outer level.
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  677. MattJ I don't know yet
  678. Kev https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/614 - very basic outline of XMPP 2 IM routing.
  679. Kev ralphm: ^
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  681. Tobias daniel, but yeah, SIMS is basically references + metadata + source hints on how to get the data
  682. Ge0rG Kev: just in time for Council meeting?
  683. Kev And as we're putting metadata into 372 imminently, I guess 385 will move to be References source hints.
  684. Tobias daniel, but i think there are plans to shove metadata into references
  685. Kev And as we're putting metadata into 372 imminently, I guess 385 will move to be References + source hints.
  686. alexis has joined
  687. Tobias Kev, nah..you can shove the source hints into references too
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  689. Tobias Kev, i guess you could also force a thumbnail into references somehow ;)
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  691. MattJ I've not been following any of these XEPs, and I suddenly feel how it must feel to non-XMPP folk trying to get stuff done
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  693. daniel yeah i'll let you people figure that stuff out and then just implement what ever the best practices turn out to be
  694. Kev MattJ: That's actually why I think a meta-XMPP2 XEP like https://github.com/Kev/xeps/blob/58153226d6caf93fbb2b4d3fbd9819e814942e37/inbox/multi-client.xml is going to be important.
  695. Tobias daniel, sensible :)
  696. Kev Or the Compliance Suites remastered as just Current XMPP Version
  697. SamWhited That's an interesting idea
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  699. Zash Hm?
  700. SamWhited I like it; though I'd be even more worried about us never releasing them and them ending up in a state where no one is really working on them.
  701. Zash Separation of "This is what's implemented today" and "This is what we want the future to be like" ?
  702. SamWhited I don't think it has to be imlemented today, it can also be "this is what the next version of XMPP looks like, now go implement it" as long as the specs exist.
  703. Zash Hm?
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  706. Zash A document describing "Currently, implementations are doing this and that."
  707. Zash And, in a separate document, something of a vision statement.
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  709. Kev I think what Zash says has considerable value.
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  711. Kev Or something along those lines.
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  713. MattJ +1
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  717. Dave Cridland I think the two are needed - ie, "this is what is done now", and "this is where we'd like to be".
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  719. Kev I wouldn't 'this is where we'd like it to be' as much as 'this is what we expect the next version of Done Now to be', but something along those lines.
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  721. Zash In various non-profits I've been involved in, at the member meetings, there's usually one point of order for a report what the org has done since the last meeting, and a point about what the org is to do for the next period.
  722. Zash So, something corresponding to that is what I'm thinking.
  723. la|r|ma has left
  724. Zash Tho I can see how this could be three things
  725. Dave Cridland has left
  726. Zash 1) State of XMPP today 2) Expected of XMPP tomorrow (short term, in-progress things) 3) Long term vision (what we want XMPP to be in some magical future)
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  728. Kev I don't see a reason 2/3 can't be a single XEP, but I'd be kinda keen on (1) being one of its own.
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  732. Zash Kev: Sure. I suppose one could differentiate between 2 vs 3 into "things doable this term" and "things after this term" (roughtly council/board terms)
  733. ta has joined
  734. Zash Having snapshots of how the state of things were in the past would be nice to have in the future.
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  738. Maranda huhuhuhu http://www.mailenable.com/beta/Premium-ReleaseNotes.txt
  739. Maranda I don't even dare looking.
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  741. Maranda But something in there "supports" OMEMO ™ (!)
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  744. Zash Kev: `<example caption='Server acknowledges enabling Carbons'>` s/carbons/im-ng/ ?
  745. Kev Yeah. Spot the copy/paste.
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  747. Dave Cridland Kev, Have you been using my trick of declaring the namespace in an entity to make bumping it easier? :-)
  748. jonasw does that even work with CDATA?
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  750. Dave Cridland jonasw, No, nothing at all works inside CDATA, so i have to terminate the CDATA section, do the entity, and reopen.
  751. moparisthebest Maranda, it doesn't say it supports OMEMO, it says it "Advertises OMEMO Support" :P
  752. Dave Cridland jonasw, Saves me remembering what I chose for the namespaces, though.
  753. jonasw Dave Cridland, ah that makes sense
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  759. Maranda moparisthebest, JSXC supports OMEMO *I think*
  760. Maranda moparisthebest, else it doesn't make sense
  761. moparisthebest it didn't last time I saw it but that sounds good
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  785. Maranda moparisthebest, the funny thing is that they "added" all these features but still manage to not get how to output rfc compliant JSON.
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  804. jonasw Syndace, regarding the magic values from the signal code, if we ever define our own ones/our own wire format, we won’t be compatible with the libsingal clients anymore, will we?
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  806. Zash Doomed!
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  808. Syndace jonasw, yeah, that's the reason why I copied these magic values in the first place - to be compatible to the current libsignal clients.
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  810. Zash Are magic numbers copyrightable?
  811. daniel Are you asking oracle that question?
  812. jonasw :(
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  814. jonasw can we agree on #nuketheentiresitefromorbit oracle?
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  851. Syndace Zash: That's the actual question. I don't know, that's why I take the safe route and go with GPL for now.
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  855. moparisthebest do you know oracle actually put a poem as the first bytes in their database protocol?
  856. moparisthebest specifically on the theory that poems are non-trivial copyrightable works, and that now no one can write an alternative implementation for oracle databases
  857. moparisthebest oracle is after all, 95% lawyers and 5% programmers right?
  858. Syndace Why are people like this :O
  859. moparisthebest s/people/lawyers/
  860. jonasw what the actual f*
  861. moparisthebest https://dacut.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/oracle-poetry.html
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  934. Neustradamus About MUJI: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0272.html The 0.2 is not on the website, an idea? I found an old version in inbox: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muji.html (before the 0.1) -> https://github.com/valeriansaliou/giggle/blob/master/PROTOCOL.md
  935. jonasw Neustradamus, what are you asking for?
  936. jonasw 0.1 is greater htan the in the inbox
  937. Neustradamus Yes it is old in inbox
  938. Neustradamus But there is no 0.2
  939. jonasw was there ever a 0.2?
  940. Neustradamus There is not the standard? https://github.com/valeriansaliou/giggle/blob/master/PROTOCOL.md XMPP Extensions (Updated) - XEP-0272: Multiparty Jingle (Muji) v0.2
  941. jonasw dunno where giggle got that v0.2 from
  942. jonasw but if it’s not on the website, I doubt it exists
  943. jonasw 0.1 is from before the git-svn import
  944. Neustradamus Ok it confirms my ticket: https://github.com/valeriansaliou/giggle/issues/90
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  997. Holger Kev: IM-NG currently doesn't allow for sending (delivery) errors to all clients, right?
  998. Holger Don't we need that?
  999. Kev Did I miss that out? Full-JID errors go to all clients unless there's an im-ng element.
  1000. Kev (because errors should flip the to/from and therefore will have a full-JID to)
  1001. Holger Ah.
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  1004. Holger I don't see this being mentioned, but maybe I'm just overlooking it.
  1005. Holger Kev: And I don't quite get the idea with sending to a single resource? The sender adds an <im-ng/> element, but the recipient should then ignore the message?
  1006. Kev It's a protection (happy to believe I've worded it badly) against having things that look like IM messages, but don't get stored in the archive because of sender trickery.
  1007. Kev So a client should only handle full-JID messages for things that are specifically needing to be full-JID messages.
  1008. Holger Yeah I was going to ask about the meaning of "IM-related messages".
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  1010. Kev But if you received eg. <body>Yep, I'm saying this on the record</body> to a full JID you wouldn't render it in your chat.
  1011. Holger So e.g. a MAM message is not an "IM-related message".
  1012. Holger Right.
  1013. Holger Then again you would render a MAM message :-)
  1014. Kev I also forgot to put any reflection in there.
  1015. alexis has left
  1016. Kev But there are words on a (virtual) page now, and that's one step closer.
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  1021. daniel So outgoing messages need to be tagged with im-ng? Could the server do that for me?
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  1023. daniel If I have enabled im-ng in that session
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  1026. Kev Yes, I suppose it could.
  1027. Kev Only outgoing messages that are to a full-JID.
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  1029. daniel Example 5 gas that Tag as well though?
  1030. Kev Because I'm an idiot :)
  1031. Kev Gone now.
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  1033. Kev Holger: The error confusion is because I messed up. The paragraph should have been: <p>In order for interoperability with other entities (contacts, remote servers etc.) that don't support IM-NG, old-style full-JID messages also need to be handled. When a server receives a message with type other than than 'groupchat' or 'headline' that does not contain an &lt;im-ng xmlns='urn:xmpp:im-ng:0'&gt; element it is to be routed by the above rules as if they were sent to the bare JID</p>
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  1036. Holger Ah, makes sense.
  1037. daniel Kev: by not process messages to the full jid you mean unless it's a "system message"
  1038. daniel That was somewhat requested
  1039. daniel In the security considerations
  1040. Kev daniel: The text needs massaging. What I really mean is 'if you get a thing to a full JID that you expect to be to a bare JID, ignore it'.
  1041. Kev So if you get a <body>something</body> to a full JID, you'd ignore it.
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  1043. moparisthebest couldn't (shouldn't) the server filter that?
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  1045. daniel The rules are probably too complex for a sever to grasp
  1046. moparisthebest so another MIX? :P
  1047. daniel I mean in the case of something obvious as body sure
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  1051. Kev The server just routes.
  1052. Kev The client gets to decide how to handle what it receives.
  1053. moparisthebest routes and also adds im-ng tag, seems like it could also block bad messages
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  1058. Holger Kev: But what you described regarding error messages would be the regular way of doing things, not just for interop with the old world, no? So if this was *only* mentioned in the above paragraph this intention would still not be obvious to me.
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  1060. Holger Kev: The first Business Rule sentence mentions all types except error, I think I'd add a sentence regarding errors following that.
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  1066. Kev Fair. I was pondering the same, ta.
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