XSF Discussion - 2018-04-02


  1. Guus has left

  2. Guus has left

  3. lovetox has joined

  4. lovetox has left

  5. Maranda has joined

  6. Guus has left

  7. Dave Cridland has left

  8. Dave Cridland has left

  9. remko has joined

  10. Guus has left

  11. remko has left

  12. Dave Cridland has left

  13. Guus has left

  14. Dave Cridland has left

  15. jere has left

  16. jere has joined

  17. alexis has left

  18. alexis has joined

  19. Guus has left

  20. Guus has left

  21. jjrh has left

  22. alexis has left

  23. alexis has joined

  24. Guus has left

  25. Guus has left

  26. la|r|ma has joined

  27. la|r|ma has joined

  28. la|r|ma has joined

  29. lskdjf has joined

  30. lskdjf has joined

  31. alexis has left

  32. alexis has joined

  33. efrit has left

  34. alexis has left

  35. alexis has joined

  36. andrey.g has left

  37. andrey.g has joined

  38. lskdjf has joined

  39. lskdjf has joined

  40. lskdjf has joined

  41. la|r|ma has joined

  42. SaltyBones has left

  43. Dave Cridland has left

  44. Dave Cridland has left

  45. Guus has left

  46. daniel has left

  47. alexis has joined

  48. Guus has left

  49. alexis has left

  50. alexis has joined

  51. daniel has left

  52. Guus has left

  53. Guus has left

  54. lskdjf has left

  55. alexis has left

  56. alexis has joined

  57. Guus has left

  58. la|r|ma has joined

  59. alexis has left

  60. alexis has joined

  61. Guus has left

  62. alexis has left

  63. alexis has joined

  64. rion has joined

  65. alexis has left

  66. alexis has joined

  67. Guus has left

  68. SamWhited has left

  69. Lance has joined

  70. Dave Cridland has left

  71. rion has left

  72. Guus has left

  73. Guus has left

  74. Yagiza has joined

  75. Guus has left

  76. Guus has left

  77. Guus has left

  78. Guus has left

  79. Guus has left

  80. Dave Cridland has left

  81. Guus has left

  82. vanitasvitae has left

  83. lskdjf has joined

  84. Guus has left

  85. Lance has left

  86. Guus has left

  87. Guus has left

  88. rion has joined

  89. jjrh has left

  90. Guus has left

  91. Guus has left

  92. rion has left

  93. rion has joined

  94. moparisthebest has joined

  95. Guus has left

  96. ralphm has left

  97. rion has left

  98. Guus has left

  99. rion has joined

  100. Guus has left

  101. Dave Cridland has left

  102. Anu has joined

  103. Guus has left

  104. la|r|ma has left

  105. Guus has left

  106. alexis has left

  107. alexis has joined

  108. daniel has left

  109. Guus has left

  110. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  111. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  112. alexis has left

  113. alexis has joined

  114. daniel has left

  115. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  116. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  117. alexis has left

  118. alexis has joined

  119. la|r|ma has joined

  120. daniel has left

  121. lskdjf has joined

  122. Nekit has left

  123. vanitasvitae has joined

  124. Nekit has joined

  125. Guus has left

  126. ibikk has joined

  127. goffi has joined

  128. Guus has left

  129. Valerian has joined

  130. Guus has left

  131. Guus has left

  132. Guus has left

  133. la|r|ma has joined

  134. Valerian has left

  135. Valerian has joined

  136. goffi has left

  137. Guus has left

  138. goffi has joined

  139. Dave Cridland has left

  140. mimi89999 has joined

  141. Dave Cridland has left

  142. Dave Cridland has left

  143. Guus has left

  144. moparisthebest has joined

  145. Dave Cridland has left

  146. Guus has left

  147. ralphm has left

  148. Guus has left

  149. Guus has left

  150. Dave Cridland has left

  151. Dave Cridland has left

  152. Dave Cridland has left

  153. Dave Cridland has left

  154. Dave Cridland has left

  155. alexis has left

  156. alexis has joined

  157. Guus has left

  158. rion has left

  159. Dave Cridland has left

  160. Dave Cridland has left

  161. Dave Cridland has left

  162. alexis has left

  163. alexis has joined

  164. Dave Cridland has left

  165. Dave Cridland has left

  166. Guus has left

  167. alexis has left

  168. ibikk has joined

  169. alexis has joined

  170. Dave Cridland has left

  171. Dave Cridland has left

  172. Tobias has joined

  173. Tobias has joined

  174. Dave Cridland has left

  175. Dave Cridland has left

  176. Dave Cridland has left

  177. rion has left

  178. goffi has left

  179. goffi has joined

  180. Dave Cridland has left

  181. ralphm has left

  182. Dave Cridland has left

  183. goffi has left

  184. goffi has joined

  185. Guus has left

  186. Dave Cridland has left

  187. Dave Cridland has left

  188. Valerian has left

  189. ludo has joined

  190. Dave Cridland has left

  191. Dave Cridland has left

  192. Dave Cridland has left

  193. ralphm has left

  194. alexis has left

  195. alexis has joined

  196. Dave Cridland has left

  197. ralphm has left

  198. alexis has left

  199. alexis has joined

  200. Dave Cridland has left

  201. ralphm has left

  202. alexis has left

  203. alexis has joined

  204. ta has left

  205. ralphm has left

  206. alexis has left

  207. alexis has joined

  208. Dave Cridland has left

  209. moparisthebest has joined

  210. alexis has left

  211. daniel has left

  212. Dave Cridland has left

  213. alexis has joined

  214. ralphm has left

  215. alexis has left

  216. alexis has joined

  217. Dave Cridland has left

  218. jubalh has joined

  219. alexis has left

  220. alexis has joined

  221. alexis has left

  222. alexis has joined

  223. moparisthebest has joined

  224. alexis has joined

  225. daniel has left

  226. ralphm has left

  227. alexis has joined

  228. LNJ has joined

  229. alexis has left

  230. alexis has joined

  231. alexis has left

  232. Nekit has left

  233. Nekit has joined

  234. alexis has joined

  235. ralphm has left

  236. Dave Cridland has left

  237. waqas has joined

  238. Dave Cridland has left

  239. jubalh has left

  240. Dave Cridland has left

  241. alexis has left

  242. alexis has joined

  243. Dave Cridland has left

  244. Guus has left

  245. alexis has left

  246. alexis has joined

  247. Guus has left

  248. jubalh has joined

  249. alexis has left

  250. alexis has joined

  251. Guus has left

  252. Dave Cridland has left

  253. marmistrz has left

  254. Guus has left

  255. marmistrz has joined

  256. j.r has left

  257. j.r has joined

  258. alexis has left

  259. alexis has joined

  260. alexis has joined

  261. Dave Cridland has left

  262. alexis has joined

  263. alexis has left

  264. alexis has joined

  265. daniel has left

  266. Dave Cridland has left

  267. daniel has left

  268. Guus has left

  269. alexis has left

  270. alexis has joined

  271. Guus has left

  272. Maranda

    Hmm who do I need to talk to for issues with wiki.xmpp.org?

  273. mimi89999 has joined

  274. Guus has left

  275. alexis has left

  276. alexis has joined

  277. Guus has left

  278. Guus has left

  279. Guus has left

  280. Guus has left

  281. j.r has joined

  282. j.r has joined

  283. alexis has left

  284. alexis has joined

  285. alexis has left

  286. alexis has joined

  287. andy has joined

  288. Dave Cridland has left

  289. alexis has joined

  290. Kev has left

  291. LNJ has left

  292. LNJ has joined

  293. Alex has joined

  294. marc has left

  295. alexis has left

  296. alexis has joined

  297. Dave Cridland has left

  298. ThibG has joined

  299. moparisthebest has joined

  300. Dave Cridland has left

  301. lovetox has joined

  302. jonasw

    Maranda, Guus and iteam

  303. Maranda

    jonasw, hmmm ok need to correct a few broken links

  304. moparisthebest has joined

  305. ThibG has joined

  306. alexis has left

  307. alexis has joined

  308. alexis has left

  309. alexis has joined

  310. jonasw

    if they’re wiki-internal, you can ask for an account

  311. Dave Cridland has left

  312. Dave Cridland has left

  313. Steve Kille has left

  314. Dave Cridland has left

  315. j.r has joined

  316. Guus has left

  317. Dave Cridland has left

  318. marc has left

  319. jubalh has joined

  320. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  321. Dave Cridland has left

  322. tux has joined

  323. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  324. Dave Cridland has left

  325. lumi has joined

  326. j.r has joined

  327. Dave Cridland has left

  328. jubalh has left

  329. ibikk has left

  330. Valerian has joined

  331. lovetox has left

  332. lovetox has joined

  333. LNJ has left

  334. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  335. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  336. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  337. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  338. Dave Cridland has left

  339. Anu has joined

  340. Dave Cridland has left

  341. Valerian has left

  342. Valerian has joined

  343. Dave Cridland has left

  344. Valerian has left

  345. Valerian has joined

  346. moparisthebest has joined

  347. Dave Cridland has left

  348. moparisthebest has joined

  349. Anu has joined

  350. Anu

    The more I think about it the more I think we need to define a standard way to treat mobile clients that don’t really go offline

  351. Maranda

    jonasw, request where?

  352. Ge0rG

    Maranda: here. Tell me your username and email address

  353. Ge0rG

    Anu: yes, there are short-term and mid-term ideas for that. Short-term: combine 0198 with Push to keep a disconnected session "alive" as long as it comes back after a push message

  354. Maranda

    Ge0rG, username this nick, e-mail maranda@lightwitch.org

  355. Ge0rG

    Maranda: A randomly generated password for Maranda has been sent to maranda@lightwitch.org.

  356. Anu

    Ah ok. I was having a discussion about it on Twitter and realized all of us client developers were coming up with our own suggestions

  357. Ge0rG

    Anu: mid-term we'll probably move more and more status and configuration options from the client to the account, like a status message and notification configs

  358. Maranda

    Ge0rG, let's wait on Greylisting ™

  359. Maranda

    :P

  360. Anu

    Also once we suppress presence (offline /online) in our clients

  361. Anu

    What’s the point of subscription

  362. Ge0rG

    Anu: subscription is also an anti-spam whitelist

  363. Zash

    And feature advertising

  364. Anu

    Ive has fun explaining subscription to people

  365. Anu

    Because nothing else has it (at least visible ) these days

  366. Ge0rG

    Anu: just hide bidirectional subscription from them.

  367. Anu

    Yes that’s what I’m thinking of doing

  368. Ge0rG

    Anu: I hope that with things like PARS (XEP-0379) and Easy Invitations (XEP-0401) that'll get easier

  369. Ge0rG

    Anu: in yaxim I have "Contact can see your status" for one direction and a [?] contact icon for the other

  370. ThibG has joined

  371. Anu

    We have many ways hiding al of this

  372. Ge0rG

    no wait, it's the same.

  373. ThibG has joined

  374. Anu

    Unless I’m not aware of it there isn’t a document with recommendations

  375. Ge0rG

    Unfortunately, yes.

  376. Anu

    So either several developers come together and make up our own

  377. Anu

    Circumventing the process

  378. Ge0rG

    We are using the wiki for which things, if we aren't yet ready to make them official

  379. Ge0rG

    Anu: the standards list archive has some ideas as well. I'm trying to link and document them, but that takes time

  380. Dave Cridland has left

  381. Dave Cridland has left

  382. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  383. Dave Cridland has left

  384. vanitasvitae has left

  385. andy has left

  386. Maranda

    Ge0rG, there links fixed, thank you :P

  387. Ge0rG

    Maranda: thank you!

  388. vanitasvitae has joined

  389. @Alacer has joined

  390. suzyo has joined

  391. Guus has left

  392. @Alacer has left

  393. @Alacer has joined

  394. Dave Cridland has left

  395. Dave Cridland has left

  396. @Alacer has left

  397. @Alacer has joined

  398. @Alacer has left

  399. Dave Cridland has left

  400. Dave Cridland has left

  401. Guus has left

  402. Guus has left

  403. sezuan has left

  404. sezuan has joined

  405. Dave Cridland has left

  406. Guus has left

  407. moparisthebest has joined

  408. moparisthebest has joined

  409. la|r|ma has joined

  410. j.r has joined

  411. Anu

    Ah is the wiki public? I’d like to not reinvent the wheel

  412. ta has joined

  413. j.r has joined

  414. Dave Cridland has left

  415. Guus has left

  416. lovetox has left

  417. alexis has joined

  418. Ge0rG

    Anu: yes, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page

  419. jubalh has joined

  420. Anu

    Sorry I meant the actual page where these suggestions are being written up

  421. alexis has left

  422. alexis has joined

  423. Ge0rG

    Anu: I try to put usability improvements under https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Easy_XMPP

  424. ThibG has joined

  425. Ge0rG

    Also assorted pages, like https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0280:_Message_Carbons

  426. Ge0rG

    Maybe we need a new category for that, "Usability"?

  427. Dave Cridland has left

  428. Anu

    Yup this is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Great

  429. Ge0rG

    Yay, I just realized that the standards@ ML archive links from 2014 are all wrong

  430. Ge0rG

    Thanks, mailman.

  431. Anu

    I’ve realized that xmpp has so much legacy stuff that is based on AIM or IRC

  432. Anu

    It’s like aim and irc had a baby

  433. Anu

    Haha

  434. Guus has left

  435. Ge0rG

    Anu: I think you mean ICQ.

  436. Anu

    Nope muc is an irc clone

  437. Anu

    It made sense in the 90s because that’s what people were familiar with

  438. Anu

    But feels super antiquated now

  439. Ge0rG

    Anu: ICQ and IRC.

  440. Ge0rG

    not AIM and ICQ

  441. Ge0rG

    Anu: the MUC spec is a horrible mess, with many rough edges and unspecified corner cases. I'm fixing it slowly.

  442. Maranda mumbles.

  443. Anu

    Ah yes

  444. Anu

    I saw there was an effort to make a new group chat spec

  445. Maranda

    Hmm clients supporting Process Hints up-today?

  446. Anu

    What’s process hints?

  447. Ge0rG

    Anu: the new group chat is MIX, and it's already huge and complex and nobody has implemented it yet.

  448. Maranda

    -xep 334

  449. Bunneh

    Maranda: Message Processing Hints (Standards Track, Deferred, 2018-01-25) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0334.html

  450. Ge0rG

    Anu: did you follow the last Summit discussions? I have collected a long list of current issues we need to address at https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf

  451. Anu

    I haven’t, no. Just had a baby and have mostly dropped off the planet

  452. Anu

    I’ve implemented group chat for several closed protocols

  453. Ge0rG

    Anu: ah, you've been working on increasing the number of xmpp users? That's laudable!

  454. Anu

    Let’s just say there is no version that easy or clean

  455. Anu

    :)

  456. Dave Cridland has left

  457. Anu

    It’s a way to keep my mind active at nap time

  458. Anu

    The other thing I’ve realized is that no one really uses status messages anymore

  459. Anu

    I’ve had it under the name on the contact list for a decade

  460. Maranda

    Ge0rG add the horrible misconception of "MAM and Room Logging" to the muc list. People seem to think that MAM doesn't equate to "recording conversations" apparently (and the fact that status 170 should always be used whenever discussions are recorded server-side)

  461. Anu

    But at some point people started posting their status to twitter/fb not on chat

  462. Guus has left

  463. Anu

    All of this logging is going to break so bad with gdpr

  464. Anu

    No idea how small xmpp servers are going to handle pseudo-anonymization

  465. Anu

    And purge requests

  466. Maranda

    I already have a protocol for purging, and Processing Hints for not storing. But purging archives seems another controversial we have here.

  467. Anu

    Severs should have an option to run in gdpr mode

  468. Anu

    Ip logs too

  469. Guus has left

  470. Anu

    Names, nick names etc

  471. Anu

    It’s a mess

  472. Anu

    I think the rules were made for large companies with resources but it’s going to impact any small server

  473. Zash

    Have we figured out what "GDPR mode" means yet?

  474. Anu

    I would say regular log purging.

  475. jubalh has left

  476. Anu

    Minimal logging at info level

  477. Anu

    Switching to debug mode usually lets you get away with more verbose logging

  478. Anu

    And not keeping message history beyond the legal max

  479. Anu

    It’s bad ux but that’s kind of the point

  480. Ge0rG

    Anu: it's okay to keep message logs the users actually want.

  481. Ge0rG

    Anu: all you need is consent from the user and some interface to download / purge

  482. Maranda

    Anu: the "legal max" being? Didnt have time to even glance at that thing.

  483. lskdjf has joined

  484. Maranda

    Well consent could be just setting logging default (mam prefs eg) to disabled.

  485. Maranda

    I suppose

  486. jubalh has joined

  487. Ge0rG

    Maranda: not quite, the user should have to agree when registering, and maybe get an explicit info from the client when enabling mam

  488. Maranda

    "from the client" 😉

  489. Maranda

    Ge0rG the good thing with doing backends is that UI/X stuffis mostly irrelevant to me hehe

  490. Maranda

    s/doing/dealing/

  491. Maranda

    And *dealing with*

  492. jubalh has left

  493. moparisthebest has joined

  494. Anu

    Hah

  495. Anu

    Except the fines for gdpr are steep

  496. la|r|ma has joined

  497. Dave Cridland has left

  498. Dave Cridland has left

  499. la|r|ma has joined

  500. Anu

    Up to 10 million euros or 2% of revenue for minor fines

  501. la|r|ma has joined

  502. la|r|ma has joined

  503. Valerian has left

  504. Anu

    € 20 million or 4% for worse infractions

  505. LNJ has left

  506. Anu

    A few fines can quickly shut down smaller services

  507. Maranda

    When a user registers to my server he/she has to consent to the service agreement anyways so it's possibly one or two more lines there

  508. Guus has left

  509. Dave Cridland has left

  510. Anu

    Service agreements dont override law though

  511. Anu

    Otherwise fb et al would just change their eulas

  512. Anu

    We only have until May 25 to be compliant

  513. Anu

    It’s a serious headache for tech companies

  514. Maranda

    True but if gdpr wants user consent

  515. moparisthebest has joined

  516. Maranda

    This is more a problem with IBR not OOBR

  517. Guus has left

  518. Zash

    You could argue that use of IBR implies consent to whatever.

  519. Dave Cridland has left

  520. Zash

    You could also argue that the moon is made of cheese. Also IANAL and neither are you! :P

  521. Anu

    Haha

  522. Anu

    Also how do we recommend people handle xfer of data in and out of Europe ?

  523. Zash

    How's those XSF-GDPR meetings going?

  524. Anu

    I assume the xsf has legal help.

  525. Steve Kille has left

  526. Maranda

    Anu, and yes service agreements are never normative but in the end if there's an issue you'll end in a court so I don't see where's the problem

  527. Maranda has joined

  528. Maranda

    (a ToS/EULA here has *no value* at all, you'll get to debate it anyways)

  529. Anu

    Yeah

  530. MattJ

    Maranda, if you end in a court and your ToS disagrees with GDPR, you're going to have a hard time...

  531. Steve Kille has left

  532. Steve Kille has left

  533. Anu

    From my understanding if we address logging, log anonymization, allow data export and data purging it covers most bases

  534. Anu

    Curious to see how this plays out for smaller, more resource constrained xmpp providers

  535. Maranda

    Maybe MattJ, I'm very transparent on what data I collect, so I don't think that would be the case anyways

  536. Yagiza has left

  537. Anu

    Gdpr has been my life for the past year or so, it’s going to be a barrier for entry in messaging

  538. Guus has left

  539. Guus has left

  540. Guus has left

  541. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  542. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  543. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  544. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  545. moparisthebest

    Still sounds easiest and safest to just ban EU residents from servers

  546. Zash

    You know what's even easier? Not running an XMPP server at all!

  547. Steve Kille has left

  548. Anu

    Haha yup

  549. LNJ has left

  550. Anu

    Or run it out of Europe and beyond the reach of their law enforcement

  551. Maranda

    My server is located in New Ark, although I'm not.

  552. Maranda

    (the thing running the xmpp one at least)

  553. Maranda

    :P

  554. xnyhps has left

  555. Steve Kille has left

  556. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  557. moparisthebest

    The only thing that somewhat concerns me is federation

  558. moparisthebest

    I'd be sad if I had to disable federation with EU servers

  559. Anu

    Probably will

  560. j.r has joined

  561. MattJ

    That's not a solution

  562. MattJ

    Plenty of EU citizens use US servers :)

  563. LNJ has left

  564. MattJ

    So just because you receive a message from a non-EU server doesn't mean you can assume it didn't come from an EU citizen

  565. Anu

    Jokes aside , gdpr is made to force global compliance

  566. Anu

    So us servers will have to implement it too

  567. edhelas has left

  568. Anu

    It’s based on the possibilities of doing business with an eu citizen

  569. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  570. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  571. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  572. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  573. Yagiza has joined

  574. edhelas has left

  575. Ge0rG

    Anu: please come to our next xsf GDPR meeting

  576. Ge0rG

    Anu: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR

  577. Dave Cridland has left

  578. mrdoctorwho has left

  579. Anu

    I will try.

  580. Dave Cridland has left

  581. tux has joined

  582. jubalh has joined

  583. Dave Cridland has left

  584. jubalh has left

  585. Anu

    Can I add questions for the lawyer to that wiki page?

  586. Anu

    I’m very concerned about federation

  587. Anu

    Might be an end of an era for non Balkanized Internet

  588. Dave Cridland has left

  589. ThibG has joined

  590. ThibG has joined

  591. Tobias has joined

  592. j.r has joined

  593. Dave Cridland has left

  594. Ge0rG

    Anu: we have so far tried to address the local user case. I'm hopeful that s2s delivery of messages will be permitted by assuming consent from the sender.

  595. Ge0rG

    Anu: it would be great if you could join the meeting so we know the context of the questions you want to add.

  596. Anu

    Ok

  597. j.r has joined

  598. Dave Cridland has left

  599. mrdoctorwho has left

  600. SamWhited has left

  601. la|r|ma has joined

  602. Dave Cridland has left

  603. moparisthebest

    whether they meant to enforce global compliance or not (I think you are right), sorry the EU is just a tiny portion of the internet and they cannot do it

  604. moparisthebest

    they can enforce it on companies that operate in the EU and that is it, EU citizens will probably suffer from walled gardens but then they should vote to fix the situation I guess...

  605. moparisthebest

    (or just use non-EU servers and don't mention they are from EU?)

  606. Steve Kille has left

  607. Dave Cridland has left

  608. daniel has left

  609. daniel has left

  610. lskdjf has joined

  611. lskdjf has joined

  612. daniel has joined

  613. lumi has joined

  614. Anu has left

  615. Dave Cridland has left

  616. daniel has left

  617. daniel has joined

  618. SamWhited has left

  619. edhelas has left

  620. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  621. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  622. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  623. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  624. edhelas has left

  625. edhelas has left

  626. Guus has left

  627. UsL has left

  628. UsL has joined

  629. LNJ has left

  630. Dave Cridland has left

  631. Dave Cridland has left

  632. j.r has joined

  633. Dave Cridland has left

  634. blabla has left

  635. daniel has left

  636. Dave Cridland has left

  637. Alex has left

  638. Dave Cridland has left

  639. UsL has left

  640. daniel has left

  641. Valerian has joined

  642. Dave Cridland has left

  643. UsL has joined

  644. Dave Cridland has left

  645. Guus has left

  646. Ge0rG has joined

  647. Dave Cridland has left

  648. UsL has joined

  649. UsL has joined

  650. Guus has left

  651. Dave Cridland has left

  652. Dave Cridland has left

  653. Dave Cridland has left

  654. SamWhited has left

  655. SamWhited has joined

  656. Dave Cridland has left

  657. j.r has joined

  658. Dave Cridland has left

  659. moparisthebest has left

  660. Valerian has left

  661. Valerian has joined

  662. Guus has left

  663. Guus has left

  664. daniel has left

  665. Dave Cridland has left

  666. Zash

    So, on May 19, it will have been 4 years since https://github.com/stpeter/manifesto/blob/master/manifesto.txt went into effect.

  667. Zash

    Assuming I can count.

  668. SaltyBones has left

  669. j.r has joined

  670. MattJ

    How is http://opendiscussionday.org/ still running?

  671. Zash

    I was looking for that just now. I had to look up the manifesto to remember the exact date

  672. Dave Cridland has left

  673. Guus has left

  674. Dave Cridland has left

  675. Steve Kille has left

  676. daniel has left

  677. Dave Cridland has left

  678. Maranda

    Last modified: 2018/03/09 08:24 🤔

  679. Dave Cridland has left

  680. Dave Cridland has left

  681. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  682. Guus has left

  683. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  684. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  685. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  686. Dave Cridland has left

  687. Dave Cridland has left

  688. Dave Cridland has left

  689. Dave Cridland has left

  690. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  691. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  692. daniel has left

  693. Dave Cridland has left

  694. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  695. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  696. Dave Cridland has left

  697. lumi has joined

  698. j.r has joined

  699. Guus has left

  700. Dave Cridland has left

  701. efrit has joined

  702. Dave Cridland has left

  703. Maranda wonders if the there's any client implementation for [xep 273]

  704. Zash

    Bunneh: xep 273

  705. Bunneh

    Zash: Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology (SIFT) (Standards Track, Deferred, 2011-06-27) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0273.html

  706. Maranda eyes Bunneh.

  707. ibikk has joined

  708. Maranda

    Bunneh what's your inline syntax tell me :P

  709. pep.

    {}

  710. Dave Cridland has left

  711. Zash

    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

  712. pep.

    Did I just kill it

  713. Zash

    Bunneh: tell pep. no

  714. daniel has left

  715. ta has joined

  716. pep.

    It doesn't seem to comply much

  717. Dave Cridland has left

  718. Dave Cridland has left

  719. Dave Cridland has left

  720. Maranda thinks {ping}

  721. Bunneh

    Maranda: pong

  722. Maranda

    Bunneh just doesn't like inline syntax :P

  723. Maranda

    Ohhh

  724. Maranda

    Now Gajim shown that with delay lol

  725. Zash

    It adds some kind of attaching tag to indicate its bottyness

  726. Zash

    I forget which

  727. Dave Cridland has left

  728. Kev has joined

  729. alexis has left

  730. pep.

    Ge0rG, I was told (but HINAL either) that even s2s should "just" require consent, as long as we're transparent and we say "This _can_ happen". Though technically that means "We have no clue what can happen on the other end"

  731. Anu has joined

  732. Dave Cridland has left

  733. tux has left

  734. Ge0rG

    pep.: I suppose the other server is also bound by GDPR

  735. Dave Cridland has left

  736. moparisthebest

    how is the other server supposed to get consent Ge0rG ?

  737. pep.

    I assume so

  738. ta has left

  739. pep.

    moparisthebest, I would say it doesn't get it explicitely from s2s users

  740. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: you need to forward messages to the other server for them to reach the receiver.

  741. moparisthebest

    for a specific example, how is my server supposed to get consent from everyone in this channel to log their messages?

  742. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: this is a public room

  743. moparisthebest

    is that different?

  744. pep.

    Ge0rG, though the same happens with private rooms here

  745. moparisthebest

    how do you even tell which is which

  746. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: but if I send you a private message, I must assume that your server will process it

  747. moparisthebest

    this is dumb, EU should feel ashamed and you EU citizens should fix your crappy law :P

  748. pep.

    moparisthebest, if it's s2s I don't think you do. I would say the c2s server has to state in its EULA that data will be sent to other services and will be processed there

  749. pep.

    But IANAL, of course

  750. Dave Cridland has left

  751. Dave Cridland has left

  752. Ge0rG

    So this might be considered implicit agreement. Processing is legal to fulfill a legitimate interest of a third party. The receiver is the third party and their legitimate interest is to receive my message

  753. Dave Cridland has left

  754. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: stop trolling us. You Americans have been fucking with our privacy long enough already

  755. Anu

    There is also right to be forgotten stuff

  756. Anu

    That’s for public records

  757. Anu

    It really is a mess

  758. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, are you talking about facebook? I agree, so here's an idea I've been following forever, don't use facebook

  759. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I told you about Facebook already.

  760. alexis has joined

  761. pep.

    Anu, yeah not sure how to apply that over s2s

  762. Dave Cridland has left

  763. alexis has left

  764. alexis has joined

  765. pep.

    And it's not like I was going to keep a record of servers the user has been talking to, so I can then ask these servers to delete his stuff :/

  766. jonasw has left

  767. Alex has joined

  768. Anu

    I think on some level this is like email and someone will have to chase down every server with their info but on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info

  769. daniel has left

  770. Anu

    Like google had to remove links from its index but can’t stop the news links from existing on the net

  771. pep. checks for Gmail's EULA

  772. moparisthebest

    I feel like it's exactly like email, and whatever applies there must apply here

  773. Anu

    Everyone is updating for gdpr

  774. Yagiza has left

  775. UsL

    doesn't matter if it is the EU or the States. It is all part of the same goal.

  776. Anu

    None of us are done but you will start seeing new gdpr related Eulas soon

  777. Dave Cridland has left

  778. Zash

    Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer

  779. moparisthebest

    IF YOU RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR YOU MUST DELETE IT RIGHT NOW

  780. moparisthebest

    like all corporations send? I'm sure that's *super* legally binding

  781. pep.

    moparisthebest, yeah, that is useless

  782. Ge0rG

    Zash [18:05]: > Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer In the xmpp message footer

  783. pep.

    <message><footer/></message>

  784. Anu

    Haha

  785. jere has joined

  786. Dave Cridland has left

  787. Ge0rG

    pep.: it must be in the body for backwards compatibility reasons

  788. moparisthebest

    also e2e

  789. pep.

    Ge0rG, :@

  790. Dave Cridland has left

  791. moparisthebest

    really the only part that concerns me is what Anu said " on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info"

  792. pep. gets the axe and goes to hunt whoever invented the term "backward compatibility"

  793. moparisthebest

    it's easy to get explicit consent from your users, and tell them what *you* are doing

  794. moparisthebest

    but once you send it over that s2s link, it's gone, out of your and your user's control forever

  795. pep.

    moparisthebest, it's possible to warn them "Hey, we have no clue what happens to messages sent to other servers"

  796. edhelas has left

  797. pep.

    I don't know what legal value this has though

  798. pep.

    Also users are not really often aware of the boundaries

  799. pep.

    They add the contact once, maybe they pay attention to the JID, but probably quickly forget about it

  800. moparisthebest

    s/users/lawyers creating EU privacy laws/

  801. Anu

    The whole nature of federation means a use has no idea what servers they are talking to

  802. pep.

    Not like email where you often see the email you send to

  803. alexis has left

  804. Dave Cridland has left

  805. alexis has joined

  806. Dave Cridland has left

  807. j.r has joined

  808. ibikk has joined

  809. daniel has left

  810. Dave Cridland has left

  811. Dave Cridland has left

  812. alexis has left

  813. alexis has joined

  814. Dave Cridland has left

  815. Guus has left

  816. Dave Cridland has left

  817. daniel has left

  818. alexis has left

  819. alexis has joined

  820. Dave Cridland has left

  821. j.r has joined

  822. j.r has joined

  823. Dave Cridland has left

  824. LNJ has left

  825. Dave Cridland has left

  826. Dave Cridland has left

  827. ta has joined

  828. mimi89999 has left

  829. mimi89999 has joined

  830. mimi89999 has joined

  831. alexis has left

  832. alexis has joined

  833. Dave Cridland has left

  834. Guus has left

  835. Dave Cridland has left

  836. daniel has left

  837. vanitasvitae has left

  838. mimi89999 has left

  839. mimi89999 has joined

  840. alexis has left

  841. vanitasvitae has left

  842. alexis has joined

  843. Dave Cridland has left

  844. Dave Cridland has left

  845. Lance has joined

  846. Dave Cridland has left

  847. Dave Cridland has left

  848. Dave Cridland has left

  849. Dave Cridland has left

  850. Dave Cridland has joined

  851. Guus has left

  852. Guus has left

  853. Dave Cridland has left

  854. Dave Cridland has left

  855. Syndace has left

  856. j.r has joined

  857. Dave Cridland has left

  858. Dave Cridland has left

  859. Dave Cridland has joined

  860. Dave Cridland has left

  861. daniel has left

  862. Dave Cridland has left

  863. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  864. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  865. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  866. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  867. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  868. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  869. mimi89999 has left

  870. mimi89999 has joined

  871. Tobias has joined

  872. Dave Cridland has left

  873. Guus has left

  874. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  875. Dave Cridland has left

  876. ta has joined

  877. Guus has left

  878. Valerian has left

  879. j.r has joined

  880. mimi89999 has joined

  881. mimi89999 has left

  882. mimi89999 has joined

  883. Valerian has joined

  884. mimi89999 has left

  885. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  886. mimi89999 has joined

  887. Guus has left

  888. daniel has left

  889. Tobias has left

  890. Tobias has left

  891. Tobias has left

  892. Tobias has left

  893. Tobias has left

  894. marmistrz has left

  895. Guus has left

  896. Dave Cridland has left

  897. Dave Cridland has left

  898. Lance has left

  899. mimi89999 has left

  900. mimi89999 has joined

  901. j.r has joined

  902. mimi89999 has joined

  903. Valerian has left

  904. suzyo has joined

  905. mimi89999 has left

  906. marc has left

  907. Tobias has left

  908. Dave Cridland has left

  909. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  910. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  911. daniel has left

  912. waqas has left

  913. jjrh has left

  914. Anu has left

  915. SamWhited has left

  916. j.r has joined

  917. blabla has left

  918. j.r has joined

  919. jjrh has left

  920. tux has joined

  921. ibikk has joined

  922. mimi89999 has left

  923. Alex has left

  924. jjrh has left

  925. ta has joined

  926. j.r has left

  927. j.r has joined

  928. edhelas has left

  929. ludo has left

  930. ludo has joined

  931. alexis has left

  932. alexis has joined

  933. Dave Cridland has left

  934. Dave Cridland has left

  935. jubalh has joined

  936. jjrh has left

  937. alexis has left

  938. alexis has joined

  939. Dave Cridland has left

  940. Dave Cridland has left

  941. Dave Cridland has left

  942. Dave Cridland has left

  943. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  944. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  945. lovetox has joined

  946. Zash has left

  947. remko has joined

  948. remko has left

  949. remko has joined

  950. remko has left

  951. jjrh has left

  952. Valerian has joined

  953. remko has joined

  954. remko has left

  955. remko has joined

  956. Kev has left

  957. jjrh has left

  958. mimi89999 has joined

  959. Dave Cridland has left

  960. marmistrz has left

  961. Dave Cridland has left

  962. remko has left

  963. remko has joined

  964. suzyo has joined

  965. remko has left

  966. Dave Cridland has left

  967. Alex has left

  968. Guus has left

  969. Dave Cridland has left

  970. Dave Cridland has left

  971. Dave Cridland has left

  972. Dave Cridland has left

  973. mimi89999 has left

  974. mimi89999 has left

  975. mimi89999 has joined

  976. Dave Cridland has left

  977. j.r has joined

  978. remko has joined

  979. Dave Cridland has left

  980. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  981. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  982. rion has joined

  983. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  984. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  985. remko has left

  986. remko has joined

  987. Dave Cridland has left

  988. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  989. daniel has left

  990. Dave Cridland has left

  991. remko has left

  992. remko has joined

  993. Maranda

    while you keep wasting time with GDPR....

  994. Maranda played a bit more with SIFT and added some more stuff...

  995. Maranda

    :P

  996. Lance has left

  997. Dave Cridland has left

  998. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  999. Maranda

    probably something people will never use ™

  1000. Zash has left

  1001. Dave Cridland has left

  1002. Maranda

    also removed {xep 91} layovers which is a plus.

  1003. Bunneh

    Maranda: Legacy Delayed Delivery (Historical, Obsolete, 2009-05-27) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0091.html

  1004. daniel has left

  1005. rion has left

  1006. mimi89999 has left

  1007. mimi89999 has joined

  1008. Dave Cridland has left

  1009. remko has left

  1010. remko has joined

  1011. Dave Cridland has left

  1012. Dave Cridland has left

  1013. remko has left

  1014. remko has joined

  1015. daniel has left

  1016. jubalh has joined

  1017. Dave Cridland has left

  1018. j.r has joined

  1019. remko has left

  1020. remko has joined

  1021. Dave Cridland has left

  1022. daniel has left

  1023. remko has left

  1024. remko has joined

  1025. remko has left

  1026. Lance has joined

  1027. remko has joined

  1028. remko has left

  1029. remko has joined

  1030. remko has left

  1031. remko has joined

  1032. Dave Cridland has left

  1033. daniel has left

  1034. Valerian has left

  1035. jjrh has left

  1036. jubalh has left

  1037. Dave Cridland has left

  1038. Dave Cridland has left

  1039. marc has left

  1040. daniel has left

  1041. remko has left

  1042. remko has joined

  1043. Dave Cridland has left

  1044. remko has left

  1045. remko has joined

  1046. marc has left

  1047. remko has left

  1048. remko has joined

  1049. mimi89999 has left

  1050. remko has left

  1051. mimi89999 has joined

  1052. remko has joined

  1053. Dave Cridland has left

  1054. j.r has joined

  1055. efrit has left

  1056. efrit has joined

  1057. remko has left

  1058. remko has joined

  1059. Dave Cridland has left

  1060. remko has left

  1061. Dave Cridland has left

  1062. remko has joined

  1063. daniel has left

  1064. Dave Cridland has left

  1065. Dave Cridland has left

  1066. Dave Cridland has left

  1067. Dave Cridland has left

  1068. remko has left

  1069. remko has joined

  1070. daniel has left

  1071. Dave Cridland has left

  1072. remko has left

  1073. Dave Cridland has left

  1074. mimi89999 has left

  1075. mimi89999 has joined

  1076. mimi89999 has joined

  1077. remko has joined

  1078. Dave Cridland has left

  1079. remko has left

  1080. remko has joined

  1081. Dave Cridland has left

  1082. Dave Cridland has left

  1083. ralphm has left

  1084. ibikk has joined

  1085. Dave Cridland has left

  1086. ibikk has joined

  1087. Dave Cridland has left

  1088. Tobias has joined

  1089. Dave Cridland has left

  1090. remko has left

  1091. remko has joined

  1092. Dave Cridland has left

  1093. Alex has left

  1094. ludo has left

  1095. ludo has joined

  1096. remko has left

  1097. remko has joined

  1098. Dave Cridland has left

  1099. remko has left

  1100. remko has joined

  1101. Dave Cridland has left

  1102. daniel has left

  1103. Dave Cridland has left

  1104. jere has left

  1105. jere has joined

  1106. daniel has left

  1107. Dave Cridland has left

  1108. Guus has left

  1109. Dave Cridland has left

  1110. marc has joined

  1111. Dave Cridland has left

  1112. j.r has joined

  1113. Dave Cridland has left

  1114. remko has left

  1115. remko has joined

  1116. Dave Cridland has left

  1117. ralphm has left

  1118. Dave Cridland has left

  1119. Dave Cridland has left

  1120. remko has left

  1121. daniel has left

  1122. daniel has joined

  1123. j.r has joined

  1124. ludo has left

  1125. SamWhited has left

  1126. ralphm has left

  1127. Tobias has joined

  1128. Maranda has left

  1129. Maranda has left

  1130. Maranda has left

  1131. Maranda has left

  1132. Holger has left

  1133. SamWhited has left

  1134. Dave Cridland has left

  1135. Dave Cridland has left

  1136. Dave Cridland has left

  1137. Holger has left

  1138. winfried has left

  1139. winfried has left

  1140. winfried has joined

  1141. j.r has joined

  1142. daniel has left

  1143. jubalh has joined

  1144. andy has joined

  1145. winfried has left

  1146. SamWhited has left

  1147. jubalh has left

  1148. j.r has joined

  1149. andy has left

  1150. Guus has left

  1151. Maranda has left

  1152. Guus has left

  1153. blabla has joined

  1154. Maranda has left

  1155. Maranda has left

  1156. LNJ has left

  1157. moparisthebest has joined

  1158. Dave Cridland has left

  1159. Dave Cridland has left

  1160. Dave Cridland has joined

  1161. Dave Cridland has left

  1162. Dave Cridland has left

  1163. daniel has left

  1164. Guus has left

  1165. Guus has left

  1166. j.r has left

  1167. j.r has joined

  1168. Maranda has left

  1169. ta has left

  1170. j.r has joined

  1171. j.r has joined

  1172. SamWhited has left

  1173. suzyo has joined

  1174. goffi has left

  1175. lskdjf has left

  1176. Maranda has left

  1177. daniel has left

  1178. remko has joined

  1179. ibikk has left

  1180. remko has left

  1181. daniel has left

  1182. suzyo has joined

  1183. suzyo has joined

  1184. daniel has joined

  1185. efrit has left

  1186. Guus has left

  1187. Dave Cridland has left

  1188. Dave Cridland has left

  1189. daniel has left

  1190. Dave Cridland has left

  1191. Dave Cridland has left

  1192. Ge0rG has left

  1193. Ge0rG has left

  1194. Ge0rG has left

  1195. Ge0rG has left

  1196. Ge0rG has left

  1197. daniel has left

  1198. Ge0rG has joined

  1199. Yagiza has joined

  1200. Ge0rG has left

  1201. suzyo has joined

  1202. LNJ has left

  1203. Ge0rG has left

  1204. Holger has left

  1205. SamWhited has left

  1206. lskdjf has left

  1207. lskdjf has joined

  1208. lskdjf has joined

  1209. efrit has joined

  1210. Lance has left

  1211. Guus has left

  1212. daniel has left

  1213. Guus has left

  1214. la|r|ma has left

  1215. Dave Cridland has left

  1216. Dave Cridland has left

  1217. Dave Cridland has left

  1218. Lance has joined

  1219. daniel has left

  1220. Dave Cridland has left

  1221. lovetox has left

  1222. ralphm has left

  1223. efrit has left

  1224. SamWhited has left

  1225. SamWhited has joined

  1226. ralphm has left

  1227. LNJ has left

  1228. Guus has left

  1229. daniel has left

  1230. Dave Cridland has left

  1231. ralphm has left

  1232. daniel has left

  1233. UsL has left

  1234. marc has left

  1235. Dave Cridland has left

  1236. Dave Cridland has left

  1237. Dave Cridland has left

  1238. lskdjf has left

  1239. Dave Cridland has left

  1240. sezuan has left

  1241. Dave Cridland has left

  1242. lskdjf has joined

  1243. lskdjf has joined

  1244. Dave Cridland has left

  1245. Syndace has left