MarandaHmm who do I need to talk to for issues with wiki.xmpp.org?
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jonaswMaranda, Guus and iteam
Marandajonasw, hmmm ok need to correct a few broken links
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jonaswif they’re wiki-internal, you can ask for an account
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AnuThe more I think about it the more I think we need to define a standard way to treat mobile clients that don’t really go offline
Marandajonasw, request where?
Ge0rGMaranda: here. Tell me your username and email address
Ge0rGAnu: yes, there are short-term and mid-term ideas for that. Short-term: combine 0198 with Push to keep a disconnected session "alive" as long as it comes back after a push message
MarandaGe0rG, username this nick, e-mail maranda@lightwitch.org
Ge0rGMaranda: A randomly generated password for Maranda has been sent to maranda@lightwitch.org.
AnuAh ok. I was having a discussion about it on Twitter and realized all of us client developers were coming up with our own suggestions
Ge0rGAnu: mid-term we'll probably move more and more status and configuration options from the client to the account, like a status message and notification configs
MarandaGe0rG, let's wait on Greylisting ™
Maranda:P
AnuAlso once we suppress presence (offline /online) in our clients
AnuWhat’s the point of subscription
Ge0rGAnu: subscription is also an anti-spam whitelist
ZashAnd feature advertising
AnuIve has fun explaining subscription to people
AnuBecause nothing else has it (at least visible ) these days
Ge0rGAnu: just hide bidirectional subscription from them.
AnuYes that’s what I’m thinking of doing
Ge0rGAnu: I hope that with things like PARS (XEP-0379) and Easy Invitations (XEP-0401) that'll get easier
Ge0rGAnu: in yaxim I have "Contact can see your status" for one direction and a [?] contact icon for the other
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AnuWe have many ways hiding al of this
Ge0rGno wait, it's the same.
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AnuUnless I’m not aware of it there isn’t a document with recommendations
Ge0rGUnfortunately, yes.
AnuSo either several developers come together and make up our own
AnuCircumventing the process
Ge0rGWe are using the wiki for which things, if we aren't yet ready to make them official
Ge0rGAnu: the standards list archive has some ideas as well. I'm trying to link and document them, but that takes time
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MarandaGe0rG, there links fixed, thank you :P
Ge0rGMaranda: thank you!
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AnuAh is the wiki public? I’d like to not reinvent the wheel
Ge0rGAnu: did you follow the last Summit discussions? I have collected a long list of current issues we need to address at https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
AnuI haven’t, no. Just had a baby and have mostly dropped off the planet
AnuI’ve implemented group chat for several closed protocols
Ge0rGAnu: ah, you've been working on increasing the number of xmpp users? That's laudable!
AnuLet’s just say there is no version that easy or clean
Anu:)
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AnuIt’s a way to keep my mind active at nap time
AnuThe other thing I’ve realized is that no one really uses status messages anymore
AnuI’ve had it under the name on the contact list for a decade
MarandaGe0rG add the horrible misconception of "MAM and Room Logging" to the muc list. People seem to think that MAM doesn't equate to "recording conversations" apparently (and the fact that status 170 should always be used whenever discussions are recorded server-side)
AnuBut at some point people started posting their status to twitter/fb not on chat
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AnuAll of this logging is going to break so bad with gdpr
AnuNo idea how small xmpp servers are going to handle pseudo-anonymization
AnuAnd purge requests
MarandaI already have a protocol for purging, and Processing Hints for not storing. But purging archives seems another controversial we have here.
AnuSevers should have an option to run in gdpr mode
AnuIp logs too
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AnuNames, nick names etc
AnuIt’s a mess
AnuI think the rules were made for large companies with resources but it’s going to impact any small server
ZashHave we figured out what "GDPR mode" means yet?
AnuI would say regular log purging.
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AnuMinimal logging at info level
AnuSwitching to debug mode usually lets you get away with more verbose logging
AnuAnd not keeping message history beyond the legal max
AnuIt’s bad ux but that’s kind of the point
Ge0rGAnu: it's okay to keep message logs the users actually want.
Ge0rGAnu: all you need is consent from the user and some interface to download / purge
MarandaAnu: the "legal max" being? Didnt have time to even glance at that thing.
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MarandaWell consent could be just setting logging default (mam prefs eg) to disabled.
MarandaI suppose
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Ge0rGMaranda: not quite, the user should have to agree when registering, and maybe get an explicit info from the client when enabling mam
Maranda"from the client" 😉
MarandaGe0rG the good thing with doing backends is that UI/X stuffis mostly irrelevant to me hehe
Marandas/doing/dealing/
MarandaAnd *dealing with*
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AnuHah
AnuExcept the fines for gdpr are steep
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AnuUp to 10 million euros or 2% of revenue for minor fines
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Anu€ 20 million or 4% for worse infractions
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AnuA few fines can quickly shut down smaller services
MarandaWhen a user registers to my server he/she has to consent to the service agreement anyways so it's possibly one or two more lines there
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AnuService agreements dont override law though
AnuOtherwise fb et al would just change their eulas
AnuWe only have until May 25 to be compliant
AnuIt’s a serious headache for tech companies
MarandaTrue but if gdpr wants user consent
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MarandaThis is more a problem with IBR not OOBR
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ZashYou could argue that use of IBR implies consent to whatever.
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ZashYou could also argue that the moon is made of cheese. Also IANAL and neither are you! :P
AnuHaha
AnuAlso how do we recommend people handle xfer of data in and out of Europe ?
ZashHow's those XSF-GDPR meetings going?
AnuI assume the xsf has legal help.
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MarandaAnu, and yes service agreements are never normative but in the end if there's an issue you'll end in a court so I don't see where's the problem
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Maranda(a ToS/EULA here has *no value* at all, you'll get to debate it anyways)
AnuYeah
MattJMaranda, if you end in a court and your ToS disagrees with GDPR, you're going to have a hard time...
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AnuFrom my understanding if we address logging, log anonymization, allow data export and data purging it covers most bases
AnuCurious to see how this plays out for smaller, more resource constrained xmpp providers
MarandaMaybe MattJ, I'm very transparent on what data I collect, so I don't think that would be the case anyways
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AnuGdpr has been my life for the past year or so, it’s going to be a barrier for entry in messaging
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moparisthebestStill sounds easiest and safest to just ban EU residents from servers
ZashYou know what's even easier? Not running an XMPP server at all!
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AnuHaha yup
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AnuOr run it out of Europe and beyond the reach of their law enforcement
MarandaMy server is located in New Ark, although I'm not.
Maranda(the thing running the xmpp one at least)
Maranda:P
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moparisthebestThe only thing that somewhat concerns me is federation
moparisthebestI'd be sad if I had to disable federation with EU servers
AnuProbably will
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MattJThat's not a solution
MattJPlenty of EU citizens use US servers :)
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MattJSo just because you receive a message from a non-EU server doesn't mean you can assume it didn't come from an EU citizen
AnuJokes aside , gdpr is made to force global compliance
AnuSo us servers will have to implement it too
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AnuIt’s based on the possibilities of doing business with an eu citizen
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Ge0rGAnu: please come to our next xsf GDPR meeting
Ge0rGAnu: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
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AnuI will try.
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AnuCan I add questions for the lawyer to that wiki page?
AnuI’m very concerned about federation
AnuMight be an end of an era for non Balkanized Internet
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Ge0rGAnu: we have so far tried to address the local user case. I'm hopeful that s2s delivery of messages will be permitted by assuming consent from the sender.
Ge0rGAnu: it would be great if you could join the meeting so we know the context of the questions you want to add.
AnuOk
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moparisthebestwhether they meant to enforce global compliance or not (I think you are right), sorry the EU is just a tiny portion of the internet and they cannot do it
moparisthebestthey can enforce it on companies that operate in the EU and that is it, EU citizens will probably suffer from walled gardens but then they should vote to fix the situation I guess...
moparisthebest(or just use non-EU servers and don't mention they are from EU?)
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ZashSo, on May 19, it will have been 4 years since https://github.com/stpeter/manifesto/blob/master/manifesto.txt went into effect.
ZashAssuming I can count.
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MattJHow is http://opendiscussionday.org/ still running?
ZashI was looking for that just now. I had to look up the manifesto to remember the exact date
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MarandaLast modified: 2018/03/09 08:24 🤔
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Marandawonders if the there's any client implementation for [xep 273]
MarandaBunneh what's your inline syntax tell me :P
pep.{}
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ZashNooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
pep.Did I just kill it
ZashBunneh: tell pep. no
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pep.It doesn't seem to comply much
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Marandathinks {ping}
BunnehMaranda: pong
MarandaBunneh just doesn't like inline syntax :P
MarandaOhhh
MarandaNow Gajim shown that with delay lol
ZashIt adds some kind of attaching tag to indicate its bottyness
ZashI forget which
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pep.Ge0rG, I was told (but HINAL either) that even s2s should "just" require consent, as long as we're transparent and we say "This _can_ happen". Though technically that means "We have no clue what can happen on the other end"
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Ge0rGpep.: I suppose the other server is also bound by GDPR
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moparisthebesthow is the other server supposed to get consent Ge0rG ?
pep.I assume so
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pep.moparisthebest, I would say it doesn't get it explicitely from s2s users
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: you need to forward messages to the other server for them to reach the receiver.
moparisthebestfor a specific example, how is my server supposed to get consent from everyone in this channel to log their messages?
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: this is a public room
moparisthebestis that different?
pep.Ge0rG, though the same happens with private rooms here
moparisthebesthow do you even tell which is which
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: but if I send you a private message, I must assume that your server will process it
moparisthebestthis is dumb, EU should feel ashamed and you EU citizens should fix your crappy law :P
pep.moparisthebest, if it's s2s I don't think you do. I would say the c2s server has to state in its EULA that data will be sent to other services and will be processed there
pep.But IANAL, of course
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Ge0rGSo this might be considered implicit agreement. Processing is legal to fulfill a legitimate interest of a third party. The receiver is the third party and their legitimate interest is to receive my message
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Ge0rGmoparisthebest: stop trolling us. You Americans have been fucking with our privacy long enough already
AnuThere is also right to be forgotten stuff
AnuThat’s for public records
AnuIt really is a mess
moparisthebestGe0rG, are you talking about facebook? I agree, so here's an idea I've been following forever, don't use facebook
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: I told you about Facebook already.
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pep.Anu, yeah not sure how to apply that over s2s
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pep.And it's not like I was going to keep a record of servers the user has been talking to, so I can then ask these servers to delete his stuff :/
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AnuI think on some level this is like email and someone will have to chase down every server with their info but on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info
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AnuLike google had to remove links from its index but can’t stop the news links from existing on the net
pep.checks for Gmail's EULA
moparisthebestI feel like it's exactly like email, and whatever applies there must apply here
AnuEveryone is updating for gdpr
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UsLdoesn't matter if it is the EU or the States. It is all part of the same goal.
AnuNone of us are done but you will start seeing new gdpr related Eulas soon
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ZashLet's all include a long EULA in the email footer
moparisthebestIF YOU RECIEVED THIS EMAIL IN ERROR YOU MUST DELETE IT RIGHT NOW
moparisthebestlike all corporations send? I'm sure that's *super* legally binding
pep.moparisthebest, yeah, that is useless
Ge0rGZash [18:05]:
> Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer
In the xmpp message footer
pep.<message><footer/></message>
AnuHaha
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Ge0rGpep.: it must be in the body for backwards compatibility reasons
moparisthebestalso e2e
pep.Ge0rG, :@
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moparisthebestreally the only part that concerns me is what Anu said " on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info"
pep.gets the axe and goes to hunt whoever invented the term "backward compatibility"
moparisthebestit's easy to get explicit consent from your users, and tell them what *you* are doing
moparisthebestbut once you send it over that s2s link, it's gone, out of your and your user's control forever
pep.moparisthebest, it's possible to warn them "Hey, we have no clue what happens to messages sent to other servers"
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pep.I don't know what legal value this has though
pep.Also users are not really often aware of the boundaries
pep.They add the contact once, maybe they pay attention to the JID, but probably quickly forget about it
moparisthebests/users/lawyers creating EU privacy laws/
AnuThe whole nature of federation means a use has no idea what servers they are talking to
pep.Not like email where you often see the email you send to
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Marandawhile you keep wasting time with GDPR....
Marandaplayed a bit more with SIFT and added some more stuff...
Maranda:P
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Marandaprobably something people will never use ™
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Marandaalso removed {xep 91} layovers which is a plus.
XSF Discussion - 2018-04-02