XSF Discussion - 2018-04-02

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  272. Maranda Hmm who do I need to talk to for issues with wiki.xmpp.org?
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  302. jonasw Maranda, Guus and iteam
  303. Maranda jonasw, hmmm ok need to correct a few broken links
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  310. jonasw if they’re wiki-internal, you can ask for an account
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  350. Anu The more I think about it the more I think we need to define a standard way to treat mobile clients that don’t really go offline
  351. Maranda jonasw, request where?
  352. Ge0rG Maranda: here. Tell me your username and email address
  353. Ge0rG Anu: yes, there are short-term and mid-term ideas for that. Short-term: combine 0198 with Push to keep a disconnected session "alive" as long as it comes back after a push message
  354. Maranda Ge0rG, username this nick, e-mail maranda@lightwitch.org
  355. Ge0rG Maranda: A randomly generated password for Maranda has been sent to maranda@lightwitch.org.
  356. Anu Ah ok. I was having a discussion about it on Twitter and realized all of us client developers were coming up with our own suggestions
  357. Ge0rG Anu: mid-term we'll probably move more and more status and configuration options from the client to the account, like a status message and notification configs
  358. Maranda Ge0rG, let's wait on Greylisting ™
  359. Maranda :P
  360. Anu Also once we suppress presence (offline /online) in our clients
  361. Anu What’s the point of subscription
  362. Ge0rG Anu: subscription is also an anti-spam whitelist
  363. Zash And feature advertising
  364. Anu Ive has fun explaining subscription to people
  365. Anu Because nothing else has it (at least visible ) these days
  366. Ge0rG Anu: just hide bidirectional subscription from them.
  367. Anu Yes that’s what I’m thinking of doing
  368. Ge0rG Anu: I hope that with things like PARS (XEP-0379) and Easy Invitations (XEP-0401) that'll get easier
  369. Ge0rG Anu: in yaxim I have "Contact can see your status" for one direction and a [?] contact icon for the other
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  371. Anu We have many ways hiding al of this
  372. Ge0rG no wait, it's the same.
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  374. Anu Unless I’m not aware of it there isn’t a document with recommendations
  375. Ge0rG Unfortunately, yes.
  376. Anu So either several developers come together and make up our own
  377. Anu Circumventing the process
  378. Ge0rG We are using the wiki for which things, if we aren't yet ready to make them official
  379. Ge0rG Anu: the standards list archive has some ideas as well. I'm trying to link and document them, but that takes time
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  386. Maranda Ge0rG, there links fixed, thank you :P
  387. Ge0rG Maranda: thank you!
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  411. Anu Ah is the wiki public? I’d like to not reinvent the wheel
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  418. Ge0rG Anu: yes, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page
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  420. Anu Sorry I meant the actual page where these suggestions are being written up
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  423. Ge0rG Anu: I try to put usability improvements under https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Easy_XMPP
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  425. Ge0rG Also assorted pages, like https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0280:_Message_Carbons
  426. Ge0rG Maybe we need a new category for that, "Usability"?
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  428. Anu Yup this is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Great
  429. Ge0rG Yay, I just realized that the standards@ ML archive links from 2014 are all wrong
  430. Ge0rG Thanks, mailman.
  431. Anu I’ve realized that xmpp has so much legacy stuff that is based on AIM or IRC
  432. Anu It’s like aim and irc had a baby
  433. Anu Haha
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  435. Ge0rG Anu: I think you mean ICQ.
  436. Anu Nope muc is an irc clone
  437. Anu It made sense in the 90s because that’s what people were familiar with
  438. Anu But feels super antiquated now
  439. Ge0rG Anu: ICQ and IRC.
  440. Ge0rG not AIM and ICQ
  441. Ge0rG Anu: the MUC spec is a horrible mess, with many rough edges and unspecified corner cases. I'm fixing it slowly.
  442. Maranda mumbles.
  443. Anu Ah yes
  444. Anu I saw there was an effort to make a new group chat spec
  445. Maranda Hmm clients supporting Process Hints up-today?
  446. Anu What’s process hints?
  447. Ge0rG Anu: the new group chat is MIX, and it's already huge and complex and nobody has implemented it yet.
  448. Maranda -xep 334
  449. Bunneh Maranda: Message Processing Hints (Standards Track, Deferred, 2018-01-25) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0334.html
  450. Ge0rG Anu: did you follow the last Summit discussions? I have collected a long list of current issues we need to address at https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
  451. Anu I haven’t, no. Just had a baby and have mostly dropped off the planet
  452. Anu I’ve implemented group chat for several closed protocols
  453. Ge0rG Anu: ah, you've been working on increasing the number of xmpp users? That's laudable!
  454. Anu Let’s just say there is no version that easy or clean
  455. Anu :)
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  457. Anu It’s a way to keep my mind active at nap time
  458. Anu The other thing I’ve realized is that no one really uses status messages anymore
  459. Anu I’ve had it under the name on the contact list for a decade
  460. Maranda Ge0rG add the horrible misconception of "MAM and Room Logging" to the muc list. People seem to think that MAM doesn't equate to "recording conversations" apparently (and the fact that status 170 should always be used whenever discussions are recorded server-side)
  461. Anu But at some point people started posting their status to twitter/fb not on chat
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  463. Anu All of this logging is going to break so bad with gdpr
  464. Anu No idea how small xmpp servers are going to handle pseudo-anonymization
  465. Anu And purge requests
  466. Maranda I already have a protocol for purging, and Processing Hints for not storing. But purging archives seems another controversial we have here.
  467. Anu Severs should have an option to run in gdpr mode
  468. Anu Ip logs too
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  470. Anu Names, nick names etc
  471. Anu It’s a mess
  472. Anu I think the rules were made for large companies with resources but it’s going to impact any small server
  473. Zash Have we figured out what "GDPR mode" means yet?
  474. Anu I would say regular log purging.
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  476. Anu Minimal logging at info level
  477. Anu Switching to debug mode usually lets you get away with more verbose logging
  478. Anu And not keeping message history beyond the legal max
  479. Anu It’s bad ux but that’s kind of the point
  480. Ge0rG Anu: it's okay to keep message logs the users actually want.
  481. Ge0rG Anu: all you need is consent from the user and some interface to download / purge
  482. Maranda Anu: the "legal max" being? Didnt have time to even glance at that thing.
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  484. Maranda Well consent could be just setting logging default (mam prefs eg) to disabled.
  485. Maranda I suppose
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  487. Ge0rG Maranda: not quite, the user should have to agree when registering, and maybe get an explicit info from the client when enabling mam
  488. Maranda "from the client" 😉
  489. Maranda Ge0rG the good thing with doing backends is that UI/X stuffis mostly irrelevant to me hehe
  490. Maranda s/doing/dealing/
  491. Maranda And *dealing with*
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  494. Anu Hah
  495. Anu Except the fines for gdpr are steep
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  500. Anu Up to 10 million euros or 2% of revenue for minor fines
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  504. Anu € 20 million or 4% for worse infractions
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  506. Anu A few fines can quickly shut down smaller services
  507. Maranda When a user registers to my server he/she has to consent to the service agreement anyways so it's possibly one or two more lines there
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  510. Anu Service agreements dont override law though
  511. Anu Otherwise fb et al would just change their eulas
  512. Anu We only have until May 25 to be compliant
  513. Anu It’s a serious headache for tech companies
  514. Maranda True but if gdpr wants user consent
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  516. Maranda This is more a problem with IBR not OOBR
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  518. Zash You could argue that use of IBR implies consent to whatever.
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  520. Zash You could also argue that the moon is made of cheese. Also IANAL and neither are you! :P
  521. Anu Haha
  522. Anu Also how do we recommend people handle xfer of data in and out of Europe ?
  523. Zash How's those XSF-GDPR meetings going?
  524. Anu I assume the xsf has legal help.
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  526. Maranda Anu, and yes service agreements are never normative but in the end if there's an issue you'll end in a court so I don't see where's the problem
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  528. Maranda (a ToS/EULA here has *no value* at all, you'll get to debate it anyways)
  529. Anu Yeah
  530. MattJ Maranda, if you end in a court and your ToS disagrees with GDPR, you're going to have a hard time...
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  533. Anu From my understanding if we address logging, log anonymization, allow data export and data purging it covers most bases
  534. Anu Curious to see how this plays out for smaller, more resource constrained xmpp providers
  535. Maranda Maybe MattJ, I'm very transparent on what data I collect, so I don't think that would be the case anyways
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  537. Anu Gdpr has been my life for the past year or so, it’s going to be a barrier for entry in messaging
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  545. moparisthebest Still sounds easiest and safest to just ban EU residents from servers
  546. Zash You know what's even easier? Not running an XMPP server at all!
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  548. Anu Haha yup
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  550. Anu Or run it out of Europe and beyond the reach of their law enforcement
  551. Maranda My server is located in New Ark, although I'm not.
  552. Maranda (the thing running the xmpp one at least)
  553. Maranda :P
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  557. moparisthebest The only thing that somewhat concerns me is federation
  558. moparisthebest I'd be sad if I had to disable federation with EU servers
  559. Anu Probably will
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  561. MattJ That's not a solution
  562. MattJ Plenty of EU citizens use US servers :)
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  564. MattJ So just because you receive a message from a non-EU server doesn't mean you can assume it didn't come from an EU citizen
  565. Anu Jokes aside , gdpr is made to force global compliance
  566. Anu So us servers will have to implement it too
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  568. Anu It’s based on the possibilities of doing business with an eu citizen
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  575. Ge0rG Anu: please come to our next xsf GDPR meeting
  576. Ge0rG Anu: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
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  579. Anu I will try.
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  585. Anu Can I add questions for the lawyer to that wiki page?
  586. Anu I’m very concerned about federation
  587. Anu Might be an end of an era for non Balkanized Internet
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  594. Ge0rG Anu: we have so far tried to address the local user case. I'm hopeful that s2s delivery of messages will be permitted by assuming consent from the sender.
  595. Ge0rG Anu: it would be great if you could join the meeting so we know the context of the questions you want to add.
  596. Anu Ok
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  603. moparisthebest whether they meant to enforce global compliance or not (I think you are right), sorry the EU is just a tiny portion of the internet and they cannot do it
  604. moparisthebest they can enforce it on companies that operate in the EU and that is it, EU citizens will probably suffer from walled gardens but then they should vote to fix the situation I guess...
  605. moparisthebest (or just use non-EU servers and don't mention they are from EU?)
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  666. Zash So, on May 19, it will have been 4 years since https://github.com/stpeter/manifesto/blob/master/manifesto.txt went into effect.
  667. Zash Assuming I can count.
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  670. MattJ How is http://opendiscussionday.org/ still running?
  671. Zash I was looking for that just now. I had to look up the manifesto to remember the exact date
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  678. Maranda Last modified: 2018/03/09 08:24 🤔
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  703. Maranda wonders if the there's any client implementation for [xep 273]
  704. Zash Bunneh: xep 273
  705. Bunneh Zash: Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology (SIFT) (Standards Track, Deferred, 2011-06-27) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0273.html
  706. Maranda eyes Bunneh.
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  708. Maranda Bunneh what's your inline syntax tell me :P
  709. pep. {}
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  711. Zash Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
  712. pep. Did I just kill it
  713. Zash Bunneh: tell pep. no
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  716. pep. It doesn't seem to comply much
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  720. Maranda thinks {ping}
  721. Bunneh Maranda: pong
  722. Maranda Bunneh just doesn't like inline syntax :P
  723. Maranda Ohhh
  724. Maranda Now Gajim shown that with delay lol
  725. Zash It adds some kind of attaching tag to indicate its bottyness
  726. Zash I forget which
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  730. pep. Ge0rG, I was told (but HINAL either) that even s2s should "just" require consent, as long as we're transparent and we say "This _can_ happen". Though technically that means "We have no clue what can happen on the other end"
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  734. Ge0rG pep.: I suppose the other server is also bound by GDPR
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  736. moparisthebest how is the other server supposed to get consent Ge0rG ?
  737. pep. I assume so
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  739. pep. moparisthebest, I would say it doesn't get it explicitely from s2s users
  740. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you need to forward messages to the other server for them to reach the receiver.
  741. moparisthebest for a specific example, how is my server supposed to get consent from everyone in this channel to log their messages?
  742. Ge0rG moparisthebest: this is a public room
  743. moparisthebest is that different?
  744. pep. Ge0rG, though the same happens with private rooms here
  745. moparisthebest how do you even tell which is which
  746. Ge0rG moparisthebest: but if I send you a private message, I must assume that your server will process it
  747. moparisthebest this is dumb, EU should feel ashamed and you EU citizens should fix your crappy law :P
  748. pep. moparisthebest, if it's s2s I don't think you do. I would say the c2s server has to state in its EULA that data will be sent to other services and will be processed there
  749. pep. But IANAL, of course
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  752. Ge0rG So this might be considered implicit agreement. Processing is legal to fulfill a legitimate interest of a third party. The receiver is the third party and their legitimate interest is to receive my message
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  754. Ge0rG moparisthebest: stop trolling us. You Americans have been fucking with our privacy long enough already
  755. Anu There is also right to be forgotten stuff
  756. Anu That’s for public records
  757. Anu It really is a mess
  758. moparisthebest Ge0rG, are you talking about facebook? I agree, so here's an idea I've been following forever, don't use facebook
  759. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I told you about Facebook already.
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  761. pep. Anu, yeah not sure how to apply that over s2s
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  765. pep. And it's not like I was going to keep a record of servers the user has been talking to, so I can then ask these servers to delete his stuff :/
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  768. Anu I think on some level this is like email and someone will have to chase down every server with their info but on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info
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  770. Anu Like google had to remove links from its index but can’t stop the news links from existing on the net
  771. pep. checks for Gmail's EULA
  772. moparisthebest I feel like it's exactly like email, and whatever applies there must apply here
  773. Anu Everyone is updating for gdpr
  774. Yagiza has left
  775. UsL doesn't matter if it is the EU or the States. It is all part of the same goal.
  776. Anu None of us are done but you will start seeing new gdpr related Eulas soon
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  778. Zash Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer
  780. moparisthebest like all corporations send? I'm sure that's *super* legally binding
  781. pep. moparisthebest, yeah, that is useless
  782. Ge0rG Zash [18:05]: > Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer In the xmpp message footer
  783. pep. <message><footer/></message>
  784. Anu Haha
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  787. Ge0rG pep.: it must be in the body for backwards compatibility reasons
  788. moparisthebest also e2e
  789. pep. Ge0rG, :@
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  791. moparisthebest really the only part that concerns me is what Anu said " on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info"
  792. pep. gets the axe and goes to hunt whoever invented the term "backward compatibility"
  793. moparisthebest it's easy to get explicit consent from your users, and tell them what *you* are doing
  794. moparisthebest but once you send it over that s2s link, it's gone, out of your and your user's control forever
  795. pep. moparisthebest, it's possible to warn them "Hey, we have no clue what happens to messages sent to other servers"
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  797. pep. I don't know what legal value this has though
  798. pep. Also users are not really often aware of the boundaries
  799. pep. They add the contact once, maybe they pay attention to the JID, but probably quickly forget about it
  800. moparisthebest s/users/lawyers creating EU privacy laws/
  801. Anu The whole nature of federation means a use has no idea what servers they are talking to
  802. pep. Not like email where you often see the email you send to
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  993. Maranda while you keep wasting time with GDPR....
  994. Maranda played a bit more with SIFT and added some more stuff...
  995. Maranda :P
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  999. Maranda probably something people will never use ™
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  1002. Maranda also removed {xep 91} layovers which is a plus.
  1003. Bunneh Maranda: Legacy Delayed Delivery (Historical, Obsolete, 2009-05-27) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0091.html
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