XSF Discussion - 2018-04-02

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  272. Maranda

    Hmm who do I need to talk to for issues with wiki.xmpp.org?

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  302. jonasw

    Maranda, Guus and iteam

  303. Maranda

    jonasw, hmmm ok need to correct a few broken links

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  310. jonasw

    if they’re wiki-internal, you can ask for an account

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  350. Anu

    The more I think about it the more I think we need to define a standard way to treat mobile clients that don’t really go offline

  351. Maranda

    jonasw, request where?

  352. Ge0rG

    Maranda: here. Tell me your username and email address

  353. Ge0rG

    Anu: yes, there are short-term and mid-term ideas for that. Short-term: combine 0198 with Push to keep a disconnected session "alive" as long as it comes back after a push message

  354. Maranda

    Ge0rG, username this nick, e-mail maranda@lightwitch.org

  355. Ge0rG

    Maranda: A randomly generated password for Maranda has been sent to maranda@lightwitch.org.

  356. Anu

    Ah ok. I was having a discussion about it on Twitter and realized all of us client developers were coming up with our own suggestions

  357. Ge0rG

    Anu: mid-term we'll probably move more and more status and configuration options from the client to the account, like a status message and notification configs

  358. Maranda

    Ge0rG, let's wait on Greylisting ™

  359. Maranda


  360. Anu

    Also once we suppress presence (offline /online) in our clients

  361. Anu

    What’s the point of subscription

  362. Ge0rG

    Anu: subscription is also an anti-spam whitelist

  363. Zash

    And feature advertising

  364. Anu

    Ive has fun explaining subscription to people

  365. Anu

    Because nothing else has it (at least visible ) these days

  366. Ge0rG

    Anu: just hide bidirectional subscription from them.

  367. Anu

    Yes that’s what I’m thinking of doing

  368. Ge0rG

    Anu: I hope that with things like PARS (XEP-0379) and Easy Invitations (XEP-0401) that'll get easier

  369. Ge0rG

    Anu: in yaxim I have "Contact can see your status" for one direction and a [?] contact icon for the other

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  371. Anu

    We have many ways hiding al of this

  372. Ge0rG

    no wait, it's the same.

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  374. Anu

    Unless I’m not aware of it there isn’t a document with recommendations

  375. Ge0rG

    Unfortunately, yes.

  376. Anu

    So either several developers come together and make up our own

  377. Anu

    Circumventing the process

  378. Ge0rG

    We are using the wiki for which things, if we aren't yet ready to make them official

  379. Ge0rG

    Anu: the standards list archive has some ideas as well. I'm trying to link and document them, but that takes time

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  386. Maranda

    Ge0rG, there links fixed, thank you :P

  387. Ge0rG

    Maranda: thank you!

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  411. Anu

    Ah is the wiki public? I’d like to not reinvent the wheel

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  418. Ge0rG

    Anu: yes, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Main_Page

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  420. Anu

    Sorry I meant the actual page where these suggestions are being written up

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  423. Ge0rG

    Anu: I try to put usability improvements under https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Easy_XMPP

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  425. Ge0rG

    Also assorted pages, like https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0280:_Message_Carbons

  426. Ge0rG

    Maybe we need a new category for that, "Usability"?

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  428. Anu

    Yup this is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Great

  429. Ge0rG

    Yay, I just realized that the standards@ ML archive links from 2014 are all wrong

  430. Ge0rG

    Thanks, mailman.

  431. Anu

    I’ve realized that xmpp has so much legacy stuff that is based on AIM or IRC

  432. Anu

    It’s like aim and irc had a baby

  433. Anu


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  435. Ge0rG

    Anu: I think you mean ICQ.

  436. Anu

    Nope muc is an irc clone

  437. Anu

    It made sense in the 90s because that’s what people were familiar with

  438. Anu

    But feels super antiquated now

  439. Ge0rG

    Anu: ICQ and IRC.

  440. Ge0rG

    not AIM and ICQ

  441. Ge0rG

    Anu: the MUC spec is a horrible mess, with many rough edges and unspecified corner cases. I'm fixing it slowly.

  442. Maranda mumbles.

  443. Anu

    Ah yes

  444. Anu

    I saw there was an effort to make a new group chat spec

  445. Maranda

    Hmm clients supporting Process Hints up-today?

  446. Anu

    What’s process hints?

  447. Ge0rG

    Anu: the new group chat is MIX, and it's already huge and complex and nobody has implemented it yet.

  448. Maranda

    -xep 334

  449. Bunneh

    Maranda: Message Processing Hints (Standards Track, Deferred, 2018-01-25) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0334.html

  450. Ge0rG

    Anu: did you follow the last Summit discussions? I have collected a long list of current issues we need to address at https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf

  451. Anu

    I haven’t, no. Just had a baby and have mostly dropped off the planet

  452. Anu

    I’ve implemented group chat for several closed protocols

  453. Ge0rG

    Anu: ah, you've been working on increasing the number of xmpp users? That's laudable!

  454. Anu

    Let’s just say there is no version that easy or clean

  455. Anu


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  457. Anu

    It’s a way to keep my mind active at nap time

  458. Anu

    The other thing I’ve realized is that no one really uses status messages anymore

  459. Anu

    I’ve had it under the name on the contact list for a decade

  460. Maranda

    Ge0rG add the horrible misconception of "MAM and Room Logging" to the muc list. People seem to think that MAM doesn't equate to "recording conversations" apparently (and the fact that status 170 should always be used whenever discussions are recorded server-side)

  461. Anu

    But at some point people started posting their status to twitter/fb not on chat

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  463. Anu

    All of this logging is going to break so bad with gdpr

  464. Anu

    No idea how small xmpp servers are going to handle pseudo-anonymization

  465. Anu

    And purge requests

  466. Maranda

    I already have a protocol for purging, and Processing Hints for not storing. But purging archives seems another controversial we have here.

  467. Anu

    Severs should have an option to run in gdpr mode

  468. Anu

    Ip logs too

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  470. Anu

    Names, nick names etc

  471. Anu

    It’s a mess

  472. Anu

    I think the rules were made for large companies with resources but it’s going to impact any small server

  473. Zash

    Have we figured out what "GDPR mode" means yet?

  474. Anu

    I would say regular log purging.

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  476. Anu

    Minimal logging at info level

  477. Anu

    Switching to debug mode usually lets you get away with more verbose logging

  478. Anu

    And not keeping message history beyond the legal max

  479. Anu

    It’s bad ux but that’s kind of the point

  480. Ge0rG

    Anu: it's okay to keep message logs the users actually want.

  481. Ge0rG

    Anu: all you need is consent from the user and some interface to download / purge

  482. Maranda

    Anu: the "legal max" being? Didnt have time to even glance at that thing.

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  484. Maranda

    Well consent could be just setting logging default (mam prefs eg) to disabled.

  485. Maranda

    I suppose

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  487. Ge0rG

    Maranda: not quite, the user should have to agree when registering, and maybe get an explicit info from the client when enabling mam

  488. Maranda

    "from the client" 😉

  489. Maranda

    Ge0rG the good thing with doing backends is that UI/X stuffis mostly irrelevant to me hehe

  490. Maranda


  491. Maranda

    And *dealing with*

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  494. Anu


  495. Anu

    Except the fines for gdpr are steep

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  500. Anu

    Up to 10 million euros or 2% of revenue for minor fines

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  504. Anu

    € 20 million or 4% for worse infractions

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  506. Anu

    A few fines can quickly shut down smaller services

  507. Maranda

    When a user registers to my server he/she has to consent to the service agreement anyways so it's possibly one or two more lines there

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  510. Anu

    Service agreements dont override law though

  511. Anu

    Otherwise fb et al would just change their eulas

  512. Anu

    We only have until May 25 to be compliant

  513. Anu

    It’s a serious headache for tech companies

  514. Maranda

    True but if gdpr wants user consent

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  516. Maranda

    This is more a problem with IBR not OOBR

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  518. Zash

    You could argue that use of IBR implies consent to whatever.

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  520. Zash

    You could also argue that the moon is made of cheese. Also IANAL and neither are you! :P

  521. Anu


  522. Anu

    Also how do we recommend people handle xfer of data in and out of Europe ?

  523. Zash

    How's those XSF-GDPR meetings going?

  524. Anu

    I assume the xsf has legal help.

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  526. Maranda

    Anu, and yes service agreements are never normative but in the end if there's an issue you'll end in a court so I don't see where's the problem

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  528. Maranda

    (a ToS/EULA here has *no value* at all, you'll get to debate it anyways)

  529. Anu


  530. MattJ

    Maranda, if you end in a court and your ToS disagrees with GDPR, you're going to have a hard time...

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  533. Anu

    From my understanding if we address logging, log anonymization, allow data export and data purging it covers most bases

  534. Anu

    Curious to see how this plays out for smaller, more resource constrained xmpp providers

  535. Maranda

    Maybe MattJ, I'm very transparent on what data I collect, so I don't think that would be the case anyways

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  537. Anu

    Gdpr has been my life for the past year or so, it’s going to be a barrier for entry in messaging

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  545. moparisthebest

    Still sounds easiest and safest to just ban EU residents from servers

  546. Zash

    You know what's even easier? Not running an XMPP server at all!

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  548. Anu

    Haha yup

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  550. Anu

    Or run it out of Europe and beyond the reach of their law enforcement

  551. Maranda

    My server is located in New Ark, although I'm not.

  552. Maranda

    (the thing running the xmpp one at least)

  553. Maranda


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  557. moparisthebest

    The only thing that somewhat concerns me is federation

  558. moparisthebest

    I'd be sad if I had to disable federation with EU servers

  559. Anu

    Probably will

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  561. MattJ

    That's not a solution

  562. MattJ

    Plenty of EU citizens use US servers :)

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  564. MattJ

    So just because you receive a message from a non-EU server doesn't mean you can assume it didn't come from an EU citizen

  565. Anu

    Jokes aside , gdpr is made to force global compliance

  566. Anu

    So us servers will have to implement it too

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  568. Anu

    It’s based on the possibilities of doing business with an eu citizen

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  575. Ge0rG

    Anu: please come to our next xsf GDPR meeting

  576. Ge0rG

    Anu: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR

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  579. Anu

    I will try.

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  585. Anu

    Can I add questions for the lawyer to that wiki page?

  586. Anu

    I’m very concerned about federation

  587. Anu

    Might be an end of an era for non Balkanized Internet

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  594. Ge0rG

    Anu: we have so far tried to address the local user case. I'm hopeful that s2s delivery of messages will be permitted by assuming consent from the sender.

  595. Ge0rG

    Anu: it would be great if you could join the meeting so we know the context of the questions you want to add.

  596. Anu


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  603. moparisthebest

    whether they meant to enforce global compliance or not (I think you are right), sorry the EU is just a tiny portion of the internet and they cannot do it

  604. moparisthebest

    they can enforce it on companies that operate in the EU and that is it, EU citizens will probably suffer from walled gardens but then they should vote to fix the situation I guess...

  605. moparisthebest

    (or just use non-EU servers and don't mention they are from EU?)

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  666. Zash

    So, on May 19, it will have been 4 years since https://github.com/stpeter/manifesto/blob/master/manifesto.txt went into effect.

  667. Zash

    Assuming I can count.

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  670. MattJ

    How is http://opendiscussionday.org/ still running?

  671. Zash

    I was looking for that just now. I had to look up the manifesto to remember the exact date

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  678. Maranda

    Last modified: 2018/03/09 08:24 🤔

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  703. Maranda wonders if the there's any client implementation for [xep 273]

  704. Zash

    Bunneh: xep 273

  705. Bunneh

    Zash: Stanza Interception and Filtering Technology (SIFT) (Standards Track, Deferred, 2011-06-27) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0273.html

  706. Maranda eyes Bunneh.

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  708. Maranda

    Bunneh what's your inline syntax tell me :P

  709. pep.


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  711. Zash


  712. pep.

    Did I just kill it

  713. Zash

    Bunneh: tell pep. no

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  716. pep.

    It doesn't seem to comply much

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  720. Maranda thinks {ping}

  721. Bunneh

    Maranda: pong

  722. Maranda

    Bunneh just doesn't like inline syntax :P

  723. Maranda


  724. Maranda

    Now Gajim shown that with delay lol

  725. Zash

    It adds some kind of attaching tag to indicate its bottyness

  726. Zash

    I forget which

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  730. pep.

    Ge0rG, I was told (but HINAL either) that even s2s should "just" require consent, as long as we're transparent and we say "This _can_ happen". Though technically that means "We have no clue what can happen on the other end"

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  734. Ge0rG

    pep.: I suppose the other server is also bound by GDPR

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  736. moparisthebest

    how is the other server supposed to get consent Ge0rG ?

  737. pep.

    I assume so

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  739. pep.

    moparisthebest, I would say it doesn't get it explicitely from s2s users

  740. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: you need to forward messages to the other server for them to reach the receiver.

  741. moparisthebest

    for a specific example, how is my server supposed to get consent from everyone in this channel to log their messages?

  742. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: this is a public room

  743. moparisthebest

    is that different?

  744. pep.

    Ge0rG, though the same happens with private rooms here

  745. moparisthebest

    how do you even tell which is which

  746. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: but if I send you a private message, I must assume that your server will process it

  747. moparisthebest

    this is dumb, EU should feel ashamed and you EU citizens should fix your crappy law :P

  748. pep.

    moparisthebest, if it's s2s I don't think you do. I would say the c2s server has to state in its EULA that data will be sent to other services and will be processed there

  749. pep.

    But IANAL, of course

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  752. Ge0rG

    So this might be considered implicit agreement. Processing is legal to fulfill a legitimate interest of a third party. The receiver is the third party and their legitimate interest is to receive my message

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  754. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: stop trolling us. You Americans have been fucking with our privacy long enough already

  755. Anu

    There is also right to be forgotten stuff

  756. Anu

    That’s for public records

  757. Anu

    It really is a mess

  758. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, are you talking about facebook? I agree, so here's an idea I've been following forever, don't use facebook

  759. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I told you about Facebook already.

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  761. pep.

    Anu, yeah not sure how to apply that over s2s

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  765. pep.

    And it's not like I was going to keep a record of servers the user has been talking to, so I can then ask these servers to delete his stuff :/

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  768. Anu

    I think on some level this is like email and someone will have to chase down every server with their info but on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info

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  770. Anu

    Like google had to remove links from its index but can’t stop the news links from existing on the net

  771. pep. checks for Gmail's EULA

  772. moparisthebest

    I feel like it's exactly like email, and whatever applies there must apply here

  773. Anu

    Everyone is updating for gdpr

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  775. UsL

    doesn't matter if it is the EU or the States. It is all part of the same goal.

  776. Anu

    None of us are done but you will start seeing new gdpr related Eulas soon

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  778. Zash

    Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer

  779. moparisthebest


  780. moparisthebest

    like all corporations send? I'm sure that's *super* legally binding

  781. pep.

    moparisthebest, yeah, that is useless

  782. Ge0rG

    Zash [18:05]: > Let's all include a long EULA in the email footer In the xmpp message footer

  783. pep.


  784. Anu


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  787. Ge0rG

    pep.: it must be in the body for backwards compatibility reasons

  788. moparisthebest

    also e2e

  789. pep.

    Ge0rG, :@

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  791. moparisthebest

    really the only part that concerns me is what Anu said " on the other hand there might be consequences for the server that sent the info"

  792. pep. gets the axe and goes to hunt whoever invented the term "backward compatibility"

  793. moparisthebest

    it's easy to get explicit consent from your users, and tell them what *you* are doing

  794. moparisthebest

    but once you send it over that s2s link, it's gone, out of your and your user's control forever

  795. pep.

    moparisthebest, it's possible to warn them "Hey, we have no clue what happens to messages sent to other servers"

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  797. pep.

    I don't know what legal value this has though

  798. pep.

    Also users are not really often aware of the boundaries

  799. pep.

    They add the contact once, maybe they pay attention to the JID, but probably quickly forget about it

  800. moparisthebest

    s/users/lawyers creating EU privacy laws/

  801. Anu

    The whole nature of federation means a use has no idea what servers they are talking to

  802. pep.

    Not like email where you often see the email you send to

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  993. Maranda

    while you keep wasting time with GDPR....

  994. Maranda played a bit more with SIFT and added some more stuff...

  995. Maranda


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  999. Maranda

    probably something people will never use ™

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  1002. Maranda

    also removed {xep 91} layovers which is a plus.

  1003. Bunneh

    Maranda: Legacy Delayed Delivery (Historical, Obsolete, 2009-05-27) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0091.html

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