XSF Discussion - 2018-04-05

Most useless message in years: "I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo"

Send me the bloody message instead.

Welcome to the club! o/

x)

I wonder if that qualifies as "message not delivered end-to-end"

🤣

on what server is the jdev room?

muc.xmpp.org seems not the correct one

lovetox: it's on conference.jabber.org and that was down for some hours today

which reminds me to remind you to make the join-/account dialogs not split the JID

ok then i ask my question here, you are the right person for that Ge0rG

a server replies with a put httpupload url like this

https://softjoys.pro:7443/httpfileupload/be5f442e-2529-4d01-a6b4-cf45abe27c3c/подборка.jpg

is this allowed?

if i put this into pythons urllib i get a ascii decoding error

lovetox: that's an awesome question. there is no default encoding for URI paths beyond ASCII, so the cyrillic there is based on the assumption that UTF8 is supported, which is not guaranteed to work

RFC3986 recommends UTF8 though

seems i have to use urllib.parse.quote(url) before i pass it to urlopen

k thanks

This is an interesting and valid concern though. Will test it in yaxim now.

but just be aware i could not reproduce this on other servers

or lets say on the servers i use

if i upload such a file the put url would be escaped or what you call it

encoded. yeah. Bummer.

-version chat.dm.origin.com

We should add Google Cloud Printing, League of Legends, EVE and Epic/Fortnite to https://xmpp.org/uses/

Ge0rG, make a PR ✏

Ge0rG: chat.dm.origin.com can't be reached via XMPP (Server-to-server connection failed: Connecting failed: closed)

But they don't quite qualify as one of the five existing categories

<stream:error><see-other-host xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams">06d2a70415af764b3.gs.ea.com</see-other-host></stream:error>

jonasw: gladly, if we can come up with the right category. It's not quite IM, and I'm not sure "match making" is a good category. Maybe GCP can go into IoT, and the others get their own "Online Games"

Games are sexy

while you’re at it, remove the empty realtime web category

Oh my f***ing god. I need to change the menu in every single file there.

Zash: following that host actually gets me a valid XMPP starttls :>

I also wonder how Apple APNS and Goolge GCM ended up in XMPP/Social

test

test failed

Ge0rG, don't forget Star Trek Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online.

Maranda: all of them XMPP based?

They use xmpp for ingame chat like EvE now and did way before EvE online did

(e.g. from 2012 or some such)

Maranda: you just volunteered to research player numbers and start year.

Did I? 🤣

STO/CO not many, but Neverwinter has like 16 millions players

EVE no idea

Ge0rG but Cryptic's chat service is shared between CO/STO/NW

Maranda: give me five mins to prepare a first PR and then add to it.

(at least for PC, PS4/Xbox no idea if it's the same platform)

jonasw: any ideas on this one? -> Writing /usr/src/xmpp.org/output/extensions/index.html CRITICAL: RuntimeError: File /usr/src/xmpp.org/output/extensions/index.html is set to be overridden twice Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/bin/pelican", line 11, in <module>

wat, /usr/src?

in any case, can you show me the diff?

jonasw: happens on master.

from ./develop_server.sh restart

hm

works for me

Oh, sorry. Had some non-gitted files in the source tree

!

o/

Oh, the minutes are in?

5 minutes to spare! 🙂

MattJ, Ralphm, Martin ?

Howdy

Hey

I'm sure it must be someone else's turn to volunteer this time...

Thanks for your work, Matt 🙂

I'm not seeing Ralph (but am using a new UI)

np, sorry they're late

He's indeed not here since ~15min ago

Ok, let's start without him. MattJ, do you want to do the honours?

Heh, sure

Cheat sheet here: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

0) Roll call

ROLL!

<-- here

Martin and Guus

and no Ralph, but maybe he'll appear

i'm here o/

Oops, sorry :)

Guus is here too - I think you ment nyco? 🙂

Anyone for minutes this week?

he was here just now.

nyco, ?

have read the minutes...

I'll do the minutes, if there's no-one from the floor

drafting a reply to survey

Anyone from the floor for minutes...?

tag, I'm it.

Ok, thanks Guus

Any agenda bashing?

not from me.

Nothing from me

I'm good

Ok

I don't see any topics for discussion, so...

1) Commitments: Membership survey

No feedback on list so far, I know we had a brief chat about it last week

I'm on a reply, I have a few comments, and I had my notes, plus a pointer to: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2905319

I think the next step will be for me to turn it into a Google Form and send it out

Ok nyco, I'll await that

(I wasn't aware of more feedback from me being expected)

I thought it looked good. Open-ended enough to get a read on what people have issues with, but gives us a good bounding box to begin to understand the membership

That was my aim

Ok, I'll await nyco's feedback and turn it into a form ready for sending

wfm

2) Topics for discussion: Fundraising and financing

Just saw Guus's email on this, so I assume it's in progress

Typeform, maybe? or even a chatbot? 😉

Is there anything more to discuss, or shall I kick it into commitments?

I'm not against discussing more actions (or something in that mail), but I'm fine with kicking it back, until Peter responds.

thinking of latest conversations, I think we do something for more funds

with a little effort

open an online shops that sells, mugs, T-shirts, stickers, etc.

easy, just have to upload logos

we earn some money, we do nothing

they ship and bill and...

need written permission for usage of the Jabber™ trademark though.

Well, we do sell goodies IRL during Fosdem, for example - so I'm sure something similar could work

Yeah

nyco, is this something you could work on? (researching sales venues, etc.)

gotta try, we don't know, the shop would be open 24/7/365

yes

I'm wondering if we'd actually be making any money from this, but I'm not against giving this a try

work done already

cost: a few hours

Ok, thanks... can you add a card to Trello?

nyco, could you perhaps outline a plan via mail?

So we can track it

my estimations: we could do hundreds... of dollars, pounds, euros, but not bitcoins

or email works too for now

sure

Ok, great

3) Topics for discussion: Executive Officer replacement

This one probably needs Ralph's input too

It's somewhat stalled at the moment, and we need to figure out what we can do to get it moving

or just give up on it

We briefly discussed this last week

I think we're unsure what the exact purpose of an XO is?

That seems to be the case

and therefore, if we have a need for one.

We need one because the Bylaws say so, as I understand it

maybe we should invite our previous XO to discuss this with us?

Whether we practically need one is a different matter

oh, that's a good reason to have one 🙂

"because we must."

If it's just a title with no responsibility, then we probably have a lot more people to choose from

If it has responsibility, we need to document what that is, in practical terms

Maybe we should actively start to find out what those responsibilities are.

We should get some info from Peter on this indeed (unless he already said something on that matter... I vaguely recall he may have done)

The last email I could find, he said "I really wasn't doing anything in that role"

Martin, would you be willing to dig into this perhaps (looking in archives, talking to Peter), and outline some rough description that we can discuss next week?

Yup sure

Cool thanks.

Great, thanks Martin

Having something tangible (probably misspelled) will help us to put something in action.

End of the agenda...

4) AOB?

nope

no AOB from me.

Nothing from me

5) Time of next

+1w as usual

wfm

oui

Fine by mne

*me

Thanks!

Meeting closed, gavel banged

Thanks all

merci à tous ! 😉

MattJ, any particular reason why you sent the minutes to board@?

I assumed members@ was preferred.

(board@ is not publicly accessible, I think, while these meetings are)

Er, because I wasn't thinking. I'll forward them

Thanks

Done

ok, I'll continue to send them there then 🙂

you made me wonder

So I've created an "Online Games" category under XMPP/Uses: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/427

Yay, thanks Ge0rG

I'd love to add "Google Cloud Printing" to a Uses list, but the IoT page seems to be a definition of IoT-XMPP and not a "Projects using XMPP for IoT are"

Ge0rG: so, change the definition? 🙂

or add a Misc category

I’m not sure if this categorization makes sense anyways

I think that IoT is a perfect match, and the definition there is actually rather confusing to me

Maybe somebody who is actually into XMPP IoT can improve that part.

There are other oddities on the webpage: We have posted one security notice about XMPP protocols and implementations: 2014-04-04: Uncontrolled Resource Consumption with Highly-Compressed XMPP Stanzas 2012-08-21: Vulnerability in XMPP Server Dialback Implementations

for the store it would be nice to also sell client related things :)

I signle-handedly caused that many CVEs in XMPP software.

like buy a pack of Conversations/Dino/whatever stickers, 50% goes to the XSF

edhelas: I could imagine that projects will be interested in keeping most of the revenue from their own merch

well for Movim I'll be fine to do 50%-50%

There may be some benefit to having the XSF promote and manage the store though

I don't mind selling Jabber Yak faces without getting a share, but only if we get rid of that ridiculous Jabber™ 500$ fee

depends of the merchandising, for t-shirts it can be 25-75

or just get rid of the term Jabber all together!

moparisthebest: what about getting rid of the term "email"

with a little logo "buy a tshirt, help a poor XSF guy by giving him wat… beer"

that inadequately reminds me of that war on terror quote - when have you wan the war on terror, when you have remove the word "terror" from the dictionary?

is email owned by evil-corp llc ?

moparisthebest: no. But this is something we can't change.

The call is open for a good new name for what jabber used to be. Ideally accompanied by a large promotion budget.

Ge0rG, I'll add it to the members survey :)

MattJ: I'd propose "Jabber™"

Ge0rG, we can change it by not using the name ever again :)

I propose 'XMPP'

XMPP is too unwieldy for end users.

moparisthebest: let me tell you about Ex-MP pee!

Pee¡

I've never met anyone who couldn't say xmpp

moparisthebest: have you met people who couldn't remember it?

besides, 99% of people I'd just tell them to install Conversations

moparisthebest, you’re from the US, right? ;-)

I've never met anyone who knew WTF xmpp is...

Point of views ™️

moparisthebest: "how do I do Conversations on my iPhone?"

you throw away your shitty phone, and get an android

My family barely know what I do. Trust me, "I work on this chat thing called Jabber" is received very differently to "I work on this chat thing called XMPP"

see? I'm full of solutions

moparisthebest: reminds me of http://n0ssc.com/posts/540-whats-the-best-iphone-aprs-app

MattJ: so "Jabber" rang a bell with your family? Or am I missing the sarcasm tag?

Maybe we should just rebrand the whole thing to Jibber

The usual problem with Jabber... ™️

can't wait to start selling muc mugs

🐮

Ge0rG, no sarcasm. People treat 4-letter acronyms related to computing as something incomprehensible to them, it tends to terminate the conversation

Agreed

can we do better with three letter acronyms? /s

XMPP2

But Jabber is still ™️

edhelas: a MUC mug with the print "Schrödingers Chat - you don't know if you are in or out until you write a message"

"I work on a chat related piece of infrastructure"

Relate all your complaints to that dumb strange phones maker kek

Ge0rG :D but we're working on it, buy the mix-mug, soon released

I wonder on a trademark related question....

The lightbulb logo is trademarked as well by Cisco?

That puzzles me.

Maranda: https://www.jabber.org/faq.html#logo

Dank you

😎

And soon nobody will have any idea what the heck that is supposed to be

Better update it to a CFL or LED

Hahaha

+1 for Jabber without the fee :x

I think the fee should be raised to $5,000 or even $50,000

just to discourage use of a bad idea

moparisthebest: you sound like Peter.

You sound like you don't understand peoples perception of price tags.

More expensive == more better!

🤑

as long as it stops a bad idea from being more widely used I'm fine with any perception

the #1 problem is no one can even find the paperwork allowing the XSF to license it

peter said he'd look in some drawers

but, lets pretend such paperwork does exist for a second

XSF must enforce proper usage on it's licensees, and if they do not, cisco can revoke the license to XSF and all sub-licensees within like 2 weeks or whatever

does XSF have any lawyers or any way at all to enforce proper usage?

I don't think so

meaning, if a single sub-licensee misuses it, cisco takes it from everyone and can sue them to oblivion

and someone thinks this is a good idea?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Let's just crowdfund a buyout of Cisco.

moparisthebest, so technically you could force that scenario by getting a sublicense and "misbehaving".

yep, anyone could, even by accident

I'll check what's left in my pouch

I think by accident the XSF can rectify that.

you think? how often does the XSF check?

it doesn’t need to

the paperwork I’ve seen is effective once the XSF takes notice

I think it's supposed to actively enforce proper usage

the only paperwork I've seen is a promise for future paperwork, none of which has been found yet

Ge0rG you wanted the xmpp adoption start date or the game release date or both?

Maranda: when the game deployed XMPP

Maranda: with EVE it's 2018

Ge0rG, league of legends uses XMPP https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/chat-service-architecture-protocol

Ge0rG, May 2010 for Cryptic Games (STO and CO at that time, NW was released in 2013)

isn't XMPP built into the Unreal engine?

Maybe included is a better word

oh I see you have League of legends in the list.

Ge0rG, some numbers https://sto.gamepedia.com/Global_Channel_Directory related to channels/rooms (using muc)

Ge0rG, EVE Online has a currently estimated playerbase of 1 million, STO of about 900k (3 millions is PWE numbers), CO of 345k, NW data for PC is about 3 millions. Although PWE asserted NW playerbase in 16 millions for NW (I suppose it could be pooled between PC and consoles)

there you go.

Maranda: PR or didnt happen

what am I supposed to PR, and where

:O

Maranda: follow up to https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/427

Ge0rG, so can I just comment there? :P?

Maranda: append a patch

jjrh: we still need to research EA Origin, among others

Ge0rG, there you go.

Maranda: wait, now you PR my PR?

I wasn't supposed to?

🤐

Maranda: I thought you PR against xsf?

Maranda: especially as your PR contains some 30 commits

let me fix that

Well I didn't think the gaming stuff was already in

and I'm not sure what I did tbh I just forked your repo on github

github did all the rest XD

(aka the other 30 commits)

Maranda: yeah, you PRed against ge0rg:master instead of ge0rg:games, but that's ok

Maranda: could you reorder them by number of users? Or shall I?

I was just on the way out, the garden demands some heavylifting work.

Ge0rG, pft *heavy lifting* :P, ok I'll do.

Ge0rG, ok re-ordered, it's into the pull request

Maranda: thanks, I'll push that to xsf

Maranda: thanks very much, updated #427; cc jonasw

oh for the love of...

:)

"Passwords can't be longer than 30 characters" too bad it's 32 already....

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/appstream/2018-April/000244.html GDPR related

Apparently he also wants some kind of inline license agreement thingy

https://github.com/hughsie/appstream-glib/commit/9974127762729c629f84731ea53f40ec0d3c2c24#diff-d98a4241d769c797c07f2b30ae80b53bR60 I'd be interested to know what the ICO thinks about this

o.o

o.O

(the bit about NAT)

I mean it's right in that an IP address does not necessarily represent a single user

but it can, and often does, especially with ipv6

You can still nat ip6 :/

Not saying in arguing in favor

I'm*

and a ipv6 address doesn't always mean it's one person or even one computer. I might have many v6 addresses.

"It's complicated"

natting ipv6 is like using a vacuum cleaner without the bag attached

https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/track/real_time_communications/ was there only two XMPP talks this year or am I missing something?

Does anyone remember me or someone talking about what to do if you block someone who sent you a subscription request?

Hm, noone replied to https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2015-September/030394.html

hm on block remove all open sub requests

`16:38:35 MattJ> My family barely know what I do. Trust me, "I work on this chat thing called Jabber" is received very differently to "I work on this chat thing called XMPP"`

"To jabber" may be something in english and I guess that's one of the reasons people prefer to say Jabber instead of XMPP while speaking in english (apart from being called like that in the past, I know). But in other languages, Jabber is a complete weird word as XMPP is. It's true that Jabber is easy to pronounce but on the other hand, XMPP is called XMPP. It's hard for me tu buy the argument where Jabber is to XMPP what e-mail is to SMTP, IMAP, POP3... because XMPP is not multiple things. It's just XMPP. I feel more comfortable calling it by its name and that's all. It's called XMPP and we have to accept that. One can think of creating a new shiny name, let's say Zimpy, and clients could say 'Zimpy chat client', 'Zimpy compatible', 'Based on the Zimpy network' and such stuff. But then this is just an alias for XMPP, and nothing else. I'm not going to hide, I'm somehow attached to the XMPP term, but I understand the name does not help at all when explaining it to non technical people. I would be open to gather together and try to find a new name that would be good marketing wise, but finding that name is a really difficult task. Names are difficult and is hard to find one that the vast majority of us would agree on.

I'm just quoting you, MattJ, nothing else, peace and love <3.

Seve/SouL: except that xmpp is many things. It is IoT, it is cloud printing, it is online game matchmaking, it is messaging

Seve/SouL: and Jabber is the federated chat network based on the xmpp protocol

And the community.

Zash: the what?

Who?

Or maybe that's "XSF & co"

I wish we had the Jabber software foundation

Just Start It

Might as well just call it 'Please Sue Me Cisco, LLC'

I like XMPP. Jabber for me is the old chat system on that old company..

Callit it Zimpy

Zash: I could go for that, unless Oracle owns it or something :)

XMPP is fresher IMHO

Funky Fresh Software Foundation

Funky != fresh

: )

The Jabber term is still very common in parts of the world where the American copyright regime hasn't arrived.

So nowhere

Cisco and Jabber goes well together. Just like Dinosaur and Dodo does.. While XMPP feels like a fresh continuation. Like Jabber_v2. Or perhaps v4 by now.

JABBER 2K

Millennium edition

moparisthebest: you know that map of the world as seen by America? The "here be dragons" area is inhabited by people, but no copyright lawyers.

For finish about it, it is XMPP since 2004 :) Protocol and network

Russian junkies just call it Xabber. :-/ Encryption be damned.

FFSF