XSF Discussion - 2018-04-05

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  212. intosi Most useless message in years: "I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo"
  213. intosi Send me the bloody message instead.
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  215. Seve/SouL Welcome to the club! o/
  216. Seve/SouL x)
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  226. Ge0rG I wonder if that qualifies as "message not delivered end-to-end"
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  276. Maranda 🤣
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  397. lovetox on what server is the jdev room?
  398. lovetox muc.xmpp.org seems not the correct one
  399. Ge0rG lovetox: it's on conference.jabber.org and that was down for some hours today
  400. Ge0rG which reminds me to remind you to make the join-/account dialogs not split the JID
  401. lovetox ok then i ask my question here, you are the right person for that Ge0rG
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  403. lovetox a server replies with a put httpupload url like this
  404. lovetox https://softjoys.pro:7443/httpfileupload/be5f442e-2529-4d01-a6b4-cf45abe27c3c/подборка.jpg
  405. lovetox is this allowed?
  406. lovetox if i put this into pythons urllib i get a ascii decoding error
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  409. Ge0rG lovetox: that's an awesome question. there is no default encoding for URI paths beyond ASCII, so the cyrillic there is based on the assumption that UTF8 is supported, which is not guaranteed to work
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  411. Ge0rG RFC3986 recommends UTF8 though
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  416. lovetox seems i have to use urllib.parse.quote(url) before i pass it to urlopen
  417. lovetox k thanks
  418. Ge0rG This is an interesting and valid concern though. Will test it in yaxim now.
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  420. lovetox but just be aware i could not reproduce this on other servers
  421. lovetox or lets say on the servers i use
  422. lovetox if i upload such a file the put url would be escaped or what you call it
  423. Ge0rG encoded. yeah. Bummer.
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  450. Ge0rG -version chat.dm.origin.com
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  453. Ge0rG We should add Google Cloud Printing, League of Legends, EVE and Epic/Fortnite to https://xmpp.org/uses/
  454. jonasw Ge0rG, make a pR
  455. jonasw Ge0rG, make a PR
  456. Bunneh Ge0rG: chat.dm.origin.com can't be reached via XMPP (Server-to-server connection failed: Connecting failed: closed)
  457. Ge0rG But they don't quite qualify as one of the five existing categories
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  459. Zash <stream:error><see-other-host xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams">06d2a70415af764b3.gs.ea.com</see-other-host></stream:error>
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  464. Ge0rG jonasw: gladly, if we can come up with the right category. It's not quite IM, and I'm not sure "match making" is a good category. Maybe GCP can go into IoT, and the others get their own "Online Games"
  465. Ge0rG Games are sexy
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  479. jonasw while you’re at it, remove the empty realtime web category
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  525. Ge0rG Oh my f***ing god. I need to change the menu in every single file there.
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  529. Ge0rG Zash: following that host actually gets me a valid XMPP starttls :>
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  532. Ge0rG I also wonder how Apple APNS and Goolge GCM ended up in XMPP/Social
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  539. nyco test
  540. Ge0rG test failed
  541. alexis has left
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  543. Maranda Ge0rG, don't forget Star Trek Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online.
  544. daniel has left
  545. Ge0rG Maranda: all of them XMPP based?
  546. Maranda They use xmpp for ingame chat like EvE now and did way before EvE online did
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  548. Maranda (e.g. from 2012 or some such)
  549. Ge0rG Maranda: you just volunteered to research player numbers and start year.
  550. Maranda Did I? 🤣
  551. Maranda STO/CO not many, but Neverwinter has like 16 millions players
  552. Maranda EVE no idea
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  556. Maranda Ge0rG but Cryptic's chat service is shared between CO/STO/NW
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  558. Ge0rG Maranda: give me five mins to prepare a first PR and then add to it.
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  562. Maranda (at least for PC, PS4/Xbox no idea if it's the same platform)
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  566. Ge0rG jonasw: any ideas on this one? -> Writing /usr/src/xmpp.org/output/extensions/index.html CRITICAL: RuntimeError: File /usr/src/xmpp.org/output/extensions/index.html is set to be overridden twice Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/bin/pelican", line 11, in <module>
  567. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  568. jonasw wat, /usr/src?
  569. jonasw in any case, can you show me the diff?
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  571. Ge0rG jonasw: happens on master.
  572. Guus has left
  573. Ge0rG from ./develop_server.sh restart
  574. jonasw hm
  575. jonasw works for me
  576. SaltyBones has left
  577. Ge0rG Oh, sorry. Had some non-gitted files in the source tree
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  579. Ge0rG walks away ashamed
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  581. Maranda !
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  589. nyco reads the minutes
  590. Guus o/
  591. Ge0rG Oh, the minutes are in?
  592. Ge0rG runs to the mailbox
  593. Guus 5 minutes to spare! 🙂
  594. Guus MattJ, Ralphm, Martin ?
  595. Martin Howdy
  596. MattJ Hey
  597. MattJ I'm sure it must be someone else's turn to volunteer this time...
  598. Guus Thanks for your work, Matt 🙂
  599. Guus I'm not seeing Ralph (but am using a new UI)
  600. MattJ np, sorry they're late
  601. Dave Cridland has left
  602. MattJ He's indeed not here since ~15min ago
  603. Guus Ok, let's start without him. MattJ, do you want to do the honours?
  604. MattJ Heh, sure
  605. Guus Cheat sheet here: https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  606. MattJ 0) Roll call
  607. Guus ROLL!
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  609. MattJ <-- here
  610. Dave Cridland has left
  611. MattJ Martin and Guus
  612. MattJ and no Ralph, but maybe he'll appear
  613. Martin i'm here o/
  614. MattJ Oops, sorry :)
  615. Guus Guus is here too - I think you ment nyco? 🙂
  616. MattJ Anyone for minutes this week?
  617. Guus he was here just now.
  618. MattJ nyco, ?
  619. nyco have read the minutes...
  620. Guus I'll do the minutes, if there's no-one from the floor
  621. alexis has joined
  622. nyco drafting a reply to survey
  623. Dave Cridland has left
  624. MattJ Anyone from the floor for minutes...?
  625. Guus tag, I'm it.
  626. MattJ Ok, thanks Guus
  627. MattJ Any agenda bashing?
  628. Guus not from me.
  629. Martin Nothing from me
  630. nyco I'm good
  631. MattJ Ok
  632. MattJ I don't see any topics for discussion, so...
  633. MattJ 1) Commitments: Membership survey
  634. MattJ No feedback on list so far, I know we had a brief chat about it last week
  635. nyco I'm on a reply, I have a few comments, and I had my notes, plus a pointer to: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2905319
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  637. MattJ I think the next step will be for me to turn it into a Google Form and send it out
  638. MattJ Ok nyco, I'll await that
  639. Guus (I wasn't aware of more feedback from me being expected)
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  643. Martin I thought it looked good. Open-ended enough to get a read on what people have issues with, but gives us a good bounding box to begin to understand the membership
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  645. MattJ That was my aim
  646. MattJ Ok, I'll await nyco's feedback and turn it into a form ready for sending
  647. Guus wfm
  648. Guus has left
  649. MattJ 2) Topics for discussion: Fundraising and financing
  650. MattJ Just saw Guus's email on this, so I assume it's in progress
  651. nyco Typeform, maybe? or even a chatbot? 😉
  652. MattJ Is there anything more to discuss, or shall I kick it into commitments?
  653. Guus I'm not against discussing more actions (or something in that mail), but I'm fine with kicking it back, until Peter responds.
  654. nyco thinking of latest conversations, I think we do something for more funds
  655. nyco with a little effort
  656. nyco open an online shops that sells, mugs, T-shirts, stickers, etc.
  657. nyco easy, just have to upload logos
  658. nyco we earn some money, we do nothing
  659. nyco they ship and bill and...
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  661. Ge0rG need written permission for usage of the Jabber™ trademark though.
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  663. Guus Well, we do sell goodies IRL during Fosdem, for example - so I'm sure something similar could work
  664. MattJ Yeah
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  666. MattJ nyco, is this something you could work on? (researching sales venues, etc.)
  667. nyco gotta try, we don't know, the shop would be open 24/7/365
  668. nyco yes
  669. Guus I'm wondering if we'd actually be making any money from this, but I'm not against giving this a try
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  671. nyco work done already
  672. ThibG has joined
  673. nyco cost: a few hours
  674. MattJ Ok, thanks... can you add a card to Trello?
  675. Guus nyco, could you perhaps outline a plan via mail?
  676. MattJ So we can track it
  677. nyco my estimations: we could do hundreds... of dollars, pounds, euros, but not bitcoins
  678. MattJ or email works too for now
  679. nyco sure
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  685. MattJ Ok, great
  686. MattJ 3) Topics for discussion: Executive Officer replacement
  687. alexis has joined
  688. MattJ This one probably needs Ralph's input too
  689. MattJ It's somewhat stalled at the moment, and we need to figure out what we can do to get it moving
  690. MattJ or just give up on it
  691. Guus We briefly discussed this last week
  692. Guus I think we're unsure what the exact purpose of an XO is?
  693. MattJ That seems to be the case
  694. Guus and therefore, if we have a need for one.
  695. MattJ We need one because the Bylaws say so, as I understand it
  696. Guus maybe we should invite our previous XO to discuss this with us?
  697. MattJ Whether we practically need one is a different matter
  698. Guus oh, that's a good reason to have one 🙂
  699. Guus "because we must."
  700. MattJ If it's just a title with no responsibility, then we probably have a lot more people to choose from
  701. MattJ If it has responsibility, we need to document what that is, in practical terms
  702. alexis has joined
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  704. Guus Maybe we should actively start to find out what those responsibilities are.
  705. MattJ We should get some info from Peter on this indeed (unless he already said something on that matter... I vaguely recall he may have done)
  706. daniel has left
  707. MattJ The last email I could find, he said "I really wasn't doing anything in that role"
  708. Guus Martin, would you be willing to dig into this perhaps (looking in archives, talking to Peter), and outline some rough description that we can discuss next week?
  709. zinid has left
  710. Martin Yup sure
  711. Guus Cool thanks.
  712. MattJ Great, thanks Martin
  713. Guus Having something tangible (probably misspelled) will help us to put something in action.
  714. MattJ End of the agenda...
  715. MattJ 4) AOB?
  716. nyco nope
  717. Guus no AOB from me.
  718. andy has left
  719. Martin Nothing from me
  720. MattJ 5) Time of next
  721. MattJ +1w as usual
  722. Guus wfm
  723. nyco oui
  724. Martin Fine by mne
  725. Martin *me
  726. Guus Thanks!
  727. MattJ Meeting closed, gavel banged
  728. MattJ Thanks all
  729. nyco merci à tous ! 😉
  730. daniel has joined
  731. Guus MattJ, any particular reason why you sent the minutes to board@?
  732. Guus I assumed members@ was preferred.
  733. Guus (board@ is not publicly accessible, I think, while these meetings are)
  734. marmistrz has left
  735. MattJ Er, because I wasn't thinking. I'll forward them
  736. MattJ Thanks
  737. MattJ Done
  738. Dave Cridland has left
  739. Guus ok, I'll continue to send them there then 🙂
  740. Guus you made me wonder
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  743. Ge0rG So I've created an "Online Games" category under XMPP/Uses: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/427
  744. MattJ Yay, thanks Ge0rG
  745. Ge0rG I'd love to add "Google Cloud Printing" to a Uses list, but the IoT page seems to be a definition of IoT-XMPP and not a "Projects using XMPP for IoT are"
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  769. Guus Ge0rG: so, change the definition? 🙂
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  771. moparisthebest or add a Misc category
  772. jonasw I’m not sure if this categorization makes sense anyways
  773. Ge0rG I think that IoT is a perfect match, and the definition there is actually rather confusing to me
  774. winfried has left
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  776. Ge0rG Maybe somebody who is actually into XMPP IoT can improve that part.
  777. mimi89999 has joined
  778. Ge0rG There are other oddities on the webpage: We have posted one security notice about XMPP protocols and implementations: 2014-04-04: Uncontrolled Resource Consumption with Highly-Compressed XMPP Stanzas 2012-08-21: Vulnerability in XMPP Server Dialback Implementations
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  781. edhelas for the store it would be nice to also sell client related things :)
  782. Ge0rG I signle-handedly caused that many CVEs in XMPP software.
  783. edhelas like buy a pack of Conversations/Dino/whatever stickers, 50% goes to the XSF
  784. alexis has joined
  785. Ge0rG edhelas: I could imagine that projects will be interested in keeping most of the revenue from their own merch
  786. edhelas well for Movim I'll be fine to do 50%-50%
  787. alexis has left
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  789. MattJ There may be some benefit to having the XSF promote and manage the store though
  790. Ge0rG I don't mind selling Jabber Yak faces without getting a share, but only if we get rid of that ridiculous Jabber™ 500$ fee
  791. edhelas depends of the merchandising, for t-shirts it can be 25-75
  792. moparisthebest or just get rid of the term Jabber all together!
  793. Ge0rG moparisthebest: what about getting rid of the term "email"
  794. Andrew Nenakhov has left
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  796. edhelas with a little logo "buy a tshirt, help a poor XSF guy by giving him wat… beer"
  797. Ge0rG that inadequately reminds me of that war on terror quote - when have you wan the war on terror, when you have remove the word "terror" from the dictionary?
  798. moparisthebest is email owned by evil-corp llc ?
  799. Andrew Nenakhov has left
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  801. Ge0rG moparisthebest: no. But this is something we can't change.
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  803. Ge0rG The call is open for a good new name for what jabber used to be. Ideally accompanied by a large promotion budget.
  804. alexis has left
  805. MattJ Ge0rG, I'll add it to the members survey :)
  806. alexis has joined
  807. Ge0rG MattJ: I'd propose "Jabber™"
  808. moparisthebest Ge0rG, we can change it by not using the name ever again :)
  809. moparisthebest I propose 'XMPP'
  810. jonasw XMPP is too unwieldy for end users.
  811. Ge0rG moparisthebest: let me tell you about Ex-MP pee!
  812. Maranda Pee¡
  813. moparisthebest I've never met anyone who couldn't say xmpp
  814. Ge0rG moparisthebest: have you met people who couldn't remember it?
  815. moparisthebest besides, 99% of people I'd just tell them to install Conversations
  816. Martin has joined
  817. jonasw moparisthebest, you’re from the US, right? ;-)
  818. Maranda I've never met anyone who knew WTF xmpp is...
  819. alexis has joined
  820. Maranda Point of views ™️
  821. jubalh has joined
  822. Ge0rG moparisthebest: "how do I do Conversations on my iPhone?"
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  825. moparisthebest you throw away your shitty phone, and get an android
  826. MattJ My family barely know what I do. Trust me, "I work on this chat thing called Jabber" is received very differently to "I work on this chat thing called XMPP"
  827. moparisthebest see? I'm full of solutions
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  833. Ge0rG moparisthebest: reminds me of http://n0ssc.com/posts/540-whats-the-best-iphone-aprs-app
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  837. Ge0rG MattJ: so "Jabber" rang a bell with your family? Or am I missing the sarcasm tag?
  838. alexis has left
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  840. Zash Maybe we should just rebrand the whole thing to Jibber
  841. Yagiza has joined
  842. Maranda The usual problem with Jabber... ™️
  843. edhelas can't wait to start selling muc mugs
  844. Maranda 🐮
  845. MattJ Ge0rG, no sarcasm. People treat 4-letter acronyms related to computing as something incomprehensible to them, it tends to terminate the conversation
  846. Maranda Agreed
  847. jonasw can we do better with three letter acronyms? /s
  848. edhelas XMPP2
  849. Maranda But Jabber is still ™️
  850. Ge0rG edhelas: a MUC mug with the print "Schrödingers Chat - you don't know if you are in or out until you write a message"
  851. Zash "I work on a chat related piece of infrastructure"
  852. Maranda Relate all your complaints to that dumb strange phones maker kek
  853. edhelas Ge0rG :D but we're working on it, buy the mix-mug, soon released
  854. Maranda I wonder on a trademark related question....
  855. Maranda The lightbulb logo is trademarked as well by Cisco?
  856. Maranda That puzzles me.
  857. Ge0rG Maranda: https://www.jabber.org/faq.html#logo
  858. Maranda Dank you
  859. daniel has left
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  861. Maranda 😎
  862. Zash And soon nobody will have any idea what the heck that is supposed to be
  863. daniel has left
  864. Zash Better update it to a CFL or LED
  865. Maranda Hahaha
  866. pep. +1 for Jabber without the fee :x
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  870. moparisthebest I think the fee should be raised to $5,000 or even $50,000
  871. moparisthebest just to discourage use of a bad idea
  872. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you sound like Peter.
  873. Zash You sound like you don't understand peoples perception of price tags.
  874. Zash More expensive == more better!
  875. ludo has left
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  877. Maranda 🤑
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  879. moparisthebest as long as it stops a bad idea from being more widely used I'm fine with any perception
  880. moparisthebest the #1 problem is no one can even find the paperwork allowing the XSF to license it
  881. moparisthebest peter said he'd look in some drawers
  882. moparisthebest but, lets pretend such paperwork does exist for a second
  883. daniel has left
  884. moparisthebest XSF must enforce proper usage on it's licensees, and if they do not, cisco can revoke the license to XSF and all sub-licensees within like 2 weeks or whatever
  885. moparisthebest does XSF have any lawyers or any way at all to enforce proper usage?
  886. moparisthebest I don't think so
  887. moparisthebest meaning, if a single sub-licensee misuses it, cisco takes it from everyone and can sue them to oblivion
  888. moparisthebest and someone thinks this is a good idea?
  889. moparisthebest ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  890. daniel has left
  891. Zash Let's just crowdfund a buyout of Cisco.
  892. jonasw moparisthebest, so technically you could force that scenario by getting a sublicense and "misbehaving".
  893. moparisthebest yep, anyone could, even by accident
  894. Maranda I'll check what's left in my pouch
  895. jonasw I think by accident the XSF can rectify that.
  896. moparisthebest you think? how often does the XSF check?
  897. jonasw it doesn’t need to
  898. jonasw the paperwork I’ve seen is effective once the XSF takes notice
  899. moparisthebest I think it's supposed to actively enforce proper usage
  900. moparisthebest the only paperwork I've seen is a promise for future paperwork, none of which has been found yet
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  904. Maranda Ge0rG you wanted the xmpp adoption start date or the game release date or both?
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  907. Ge0rG Maranda: when the game deployed XMPP
  908. Ge0rG Maranda: with EVE it's 2018
  909. peter has joined
  910. jjrh Ge0rG, league of legends uses XMPP https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/chat-service-architecture-protocol
  911. Maranda Ge0rG, May 2010 for Cryptic Games (STO and CO at that time, NW was released in 2013)
  912. jjrh isn't XMPP built into the Unreal engine?
  913. SamWhited has left
  914. jjrh Maybe included is a better word
  915. andy has left
  916. jjrh oh I see you have League of legends in the list.
  917. Maranda Ge0rG, some numbers https://sto.gamepedia.com/Global_Channel_Directory related to channels/rooms (using muc)
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  933. Maranda Ge0rG, EVE Online has a currently estimated playerbase of 1 million, STO of about 900k (3 millions is PWE numbers), CO of 345k, NW data for PC is about 3 millions. Although PWE asserted NW playerbase in 16 millions for NW (I suppose it could be pooled between PC and consoles)
  934. Maranda there you go.
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  938. Ge0rG Maranda: PR or didnt happen
  939. Maranda what am I supposed to PR, and where
  940. Maranda :O
  941. Ge0rG Maranda: follow up to https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/427
  942. Maranda Ge0rG, so can I just comment there? :P?
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  947. Maranda forkes Ge0rG thing.
  948. Ge0rG Maranda: append a patch
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  961. Ge0rG jjrh: we still need to research EA Origin, among others
  962. Maranda Ge0rG, there you go.
  963. Ge0rG Maranda: wait, now you PR my PR?
  964. SamWhited has left
  965. Maranda I wasn't supposed to?
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  967. Maranda 🤐
  968. Ge0rG Maranda: I thought you PR against xsf?
  969. Ge0rG Maranda: especially as your PR contains some 30 commits
  970. Ge0rG let me fix that
  971. Maranda Well I didn't think the gaming stuff was already in
  972. Maranda and I'm not sure what I did tbh I just forked your repo on github
  973. Maranda github did all the rest XD
  974. Maranda (aka the other 30 commits)
  975. SaltyBones has joined
  976. Ge0rG Maranda: yeah, you PRed against ge0rg:master instead of ge0rg:games, but that's ok
  977. Ge0rG Maranda: could you reorder them by number of users? Or shall I?
  978. Ge0rG I was just on the way out, the garden demands some heavylifting work.
  979. Maranda Ge0rG, pft *heavy lifting* :P, ok I'll do.
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  992. Maranda Ge0rG, ok re-ordered, it's into the pull request
  993. Ge0rG Maranda: thanks, I'll push that to xsf
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  1006. Ge0rG Maranda: thanks very much, updated #427; cc jonasw
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  1076. Maranda oh for the love of...
  1077. rion has joined
  1078. Neustradamus :)
  1079. Maranda "Passwords can't be longer than 30 characters" too bad it's 32 already....
  1080. Maranda doesn't wanna know.
  1081. Maranda just doesn't.
  1082. valo has joined
  1083. pep. https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/appstream/2018-April/000244.html GDPR related
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  1087. pep. Apparently he also wants some kind of inline license agreement thingy
  1088. jonasw has left
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  1093. pep. https://github.com/hughsie/appstream-glib/commit/9974127762729c629f84731ea53f40ec0d3c2c24#diff-d98a4241d769c797c07f2b30ae80b53bR60 I'd be interested to know what the ICO thinks about this
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  1119. Maranda o.o
  1120. Maranda o.O
  1121. Maranda 's brain segfaults reading that.
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  1124. Maranda (the bit about NAT)
  1125. moparisthebest I mean it's right in that an IP address does not necessarily represent a single user
  1126. moparisthebest but it can, and often does, especially with ipv6
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  1162. pep. You can still nat ip6 :/
  1163. pep. Not saying in arguing in favor
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  1169. pep. I'm*
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  1175. jjrh and a ipv6 address doesn't always mean it's one person or even one computer. I might have many v6 addresses.
  1176. Zash "It's complicated"
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  1178. jjrh natting ipv6 is like using a vacuum cleaner without the bag attached
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  1180. jjrh https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/track/real_time_communications/ was there only two XMPP talks this year or am I missing something?
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  1212. Zash Does anyone remember me or someone talking about what to do if you block someone who sent you a subscription request?
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  1230. Zash Hm, noone replied to https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2015-September/030394.html
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  1238. lovetox hm on block remove all open sub requests
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  1259. Seve/SouL `16:38:35 MattJ> My family barely know what I do. Trust me, "I work on this chat thing called Jabber" is received very differently to "I work on this chat thing called XMPP"`
  1260. Seve/SouL "To jabber" may be something in english and I guess that's one of the reasons people prefer to say Jabber instead of XMPP while speaking in english (apart from being called like that in the past, I know). But in other languages, Jabber is a complete weird word as XMPP is. It's true that Jabber is easy to pronounce but on the other hand, XMPP is called XMPP. It's hard for me tu buy the argument where Jabber is to XMPP what e-mail is to SMTP, IMAP, POP3... because XMPP is not multiple things. It's just XMPP. I feel more comfortable calling it by its name and that's all. It's called XMPP and we have to accept that. One can think of creating a new shiny name, let's say Zimpy, and clients could say 'Zimpy chat client', 'Zimpy compatible', 'Based on the Zimpy network' and such stuff. But then this is just an alias for XMPP, and nothing else. I'm not going to hide, I'm somehow attached to the XMPP term, but I understand the name does not help at all when explaining it to non technical people. I would be open to gather together and try to find a new name that would be good marketing wise, but finding that name is a really difficult task. Names are difficult and is hard to find one that the vast majority of us would agree on.
  1261. Seve/SouL I'm just quoting you, MattJ, nothing else, peace and love <3.
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  1267. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: except that xmpp is many things. It is IoT, it is cloud printing, it is online game matchmaking, it is messaging
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  1270. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: and Jabber is the federated chat network based on the xmpp protocol
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  1272. Zash And the community.
  1273. Ge0rG Zash: the what?
  1274. Zash Who?
  1275. Zash Or maybe that's "XSF & co"
  1276. Ge0rG I wish we had the Jabber software foundation
  1277. Zash Just Start It
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  1282. moparisthebest Might as well just call it 'Please Sue Me Cisco, LLC'
  1283. UsL I like XMPP. Jabber for me is the old chat system on that old company..
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  1285. Zash Callit it Zimpy
  1286. moparisthebest Zash: I could go for that, unless Oracle owns it or something :)
  1287. UsL XMPP is fresher IMHO
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  1289. Zash Funky Fresh Software Foundation
  1290. UsL Funky != fresh
  1291. UsL : )
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  1294. Ge0rG The Jabber term is still very common in parts of the world where the American copyright regime hasn't arrived.
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  1296. moparisthebest So nowhere
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  1298. UsL Cisco and Jabber goes well together. Just like Dinosaur and Dodo does.. While XMPP feels like a fresh continuation. Like Jabber_v2. Or perhaps v4 by now.
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  1301. Zash JABBER 2K
  1302. UsL Millennium edition
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  1306. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you know that map of the world as seen by America? The "here be dragons" area is inhabited by people, but no copyright lawyers.
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  1335. Neustradamus For finish about it, it is XMPP since 2004 :) Protocol and network
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  1352. Andrew Nenakhov Russian junkies just call it Xabber. :-/ Encryption be damned.
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