Most useless message in years: "I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo"
intosi
Send me the bloody message instead.
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Seve/SouL
Welcome to the club! o/
Seve/SouL
x)
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Ge0rG
I wonder if that qualifies as "message not delivered end-to-end"
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Maranda
🤣
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lovetox
on what server is the jdev room?
lovetox
muc.xmpp.org seems not the correct one
Ge0rG
lovetox: it's on conference.jabber.org and that was down for some hours today
Ge0rG
which reminds me to remind you to make the join-/account dialogs not split the JID
lovetox
ok then i ask my question here, you are the right person for that Ge0rG
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lovetox
a server replies with a put httpupload url like this
if i put this into pythons urllib i get a ascii decoding error
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Ge0rG
lovetox: that's an awesome question. there is no default encoding for URI paths beyond ASCII, so the cyrillic there is based on the assumption that UTF8 is supported, which is not guaranteed to work
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Ge0rG
RFC3986 recommends UTF8 though
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lovetox
seems i have to use urllib.parse.quote(url) before i pass it to urlopen
lovetox
k thanks
Ge0rG
This is an interesting and valid concern though. Will test it in yaxim now.
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lovetox
but just be aware i could not reproduce this on other servers
lovetox
or lets say on the servers i use
lovetox
if i upload such a file the put url would be escaped or what you call it
Ge0rG
encoded. yeah. Bummer.
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Ge0rG
-version chat.dm.origin.com
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Ge0rG
We should add Google Cloud Printing, League of Legends, EVE and Epic/Fortnite to https://xmpp.org/uses/
jonasw: gladly, if we can come up with the right category. It's not quite IM, and I'm not sure "match making" is a good category. Maybe GCP can go into IoT, and the others get their own "Online Games"
Ge0rG
Games are sexy
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jonasw
while you’re at it, remove the empty realtime web category
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Ge0rG
Oh my f***ing god. I need to change the menu in every single file there.
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Ge0rG
Zash: following that host actually gets me a valid XMPP starttls :>
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Ge0rG
I also wonder how Apple APNS and Goolge GCM ended up in XMPP/Social
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nyco
test
Ge0rG
test failed
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Maranda
Ge0rG, don't forget Star Trek Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online.
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Ge0rG
Maranda: all of them XMPP based?
Maranda
They use xmpp for ingame chat like EvE now and did way before EvE online did
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Maranda
(e.g. from 2012 or some such)
Ge0rG
Maranda: you just volunteered to research player numbers and start year.
Maranda
Did I? 🤣
Maranda
STO/CO not many, but Neverwinter has like 16 millions players
Maranda
EVE no idea
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Maranda
Ge0rG but Cryptic's chat service is shared between CO/STO/NW
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Ge0rG
Maranda: give me five mins to prepare a first PR and then add to it.
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Maranda
(at least for PC, PS4/Xbox no idea if it's the same platform)
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Ge0rG
jonasw: any ideas on this one?
-> Writing /usr/src/xmpp.org/output/extensions/index.html
CRITICAL: RuntimeError: File /usr/src/xmpp.org/output/extensions/index.html is set to be overridden twice
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/bin/pelican", line 11, in <module>
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jonasw
wat, /usr/src?
jonasw
in any case, can you show me the diff?
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Ge0rG
jonasw: happens on master.
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Ge0rG
from ./develop_server.sh restart
jonasw
hm
jonasw
works for me
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Ge0rG
Oh, sorry. Had some non-gitted files in the source tree
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Ge0rGwalks away ashamed
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Maranda
!
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nycoreads the minutes
Guus
o/
Ge0rG
Oh, the minutes are in?
Ge0rGruns to the mailbox
Guus
5 minutes to spare! 🙂
Guus
MattJ, Ralphm, Martin ?
Martin
Howdy
MattJ
Hey
MattJ
I'm sure it must be someone else's turn to volunteer this time...
Guus
Thanks for your work, Matt 🙂
Guus
I'm not seeing Ralph (but am using a new UI)
MattJ
np, sorry they're late
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MattJ
He's indeed not here since ~15min ago
Guus
Ok, let's start without him. MattJ, do you want to do the honours?
I'll do the minutes, if there's no-one from the floor
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nyco
drafting a reply to survey
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MattJ
Anyone from the floor for minutes...?
Guus
tag, I'm it.
MattJ
Ok, thanks Guus
MattJ
Any agenda bashing?
Guus
not from me.
Martin
Nothing from me
nyco
I'm good
MattJ
Ok
MattJ
I don't see any topics for discussion, so...
MattJ
1) Commitments: Membership survey
MattJ
No feedback on list so far, I know we had a brief chat about it last week
nyco
I'm on a reply, I have a few comments, and I had my notes, plus a pointer to: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2905319
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MattJ
I think the next step will be for me to turn it into a Google Form and send it out
MattJ
Ok nyco, I'll await that
Guus
(I wasn't aware of more feedback from me being expected)
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Martin
I thought it looked good. Open-ended enough to get a read on what people have issues with, but gives us a good bounding box to begin to understand the membership
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MattJ
That was my aim
MattJ
Ok, I'll await nyco's feedback and turn it into a form ready for sending
Guus
wfm
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MattJ
2) Topics for discussion: Fundraising and financing
MattJ
Just saw Guus's email on this, so I assume it's in progress
nyco
Typeform, maybe? or even a chatbot? 😉
MattJ
Is there anything more to discuss, or shall I kick it into commitments?
Guus
I'm not against discussing more actions (or something in that mail), but I'm fine with kicking it back, until Peter responds.
nyco
thinking of latest conversations, I think we do something for more funds
nyco
with a little effort
nyco
open an online shops that sells, mugs, T-shirts, stickers, etc.
nyco
easy, just have to upload logos
nyco
we earn some money, we do nothing
nyco
they ship and bill and...
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Ge0rG
need written permission for usage of the Jabber™ trademark though.
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Guus
Well, we do sell goodies IRL during Fosdem, for example - so I'm sure something similar could work
MattJ
Yeah
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MattJ
nyco, is this something you could work on? (researching sales venues, etc.)
nyco
gotta try, we don't know, the shop would be open 24/7/365
nyco
yes
Guus
I'm wondering if we'd actually be making any money from this, but I'm not against giving this a try
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nyco
work done already
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nyco
cost: a few hours
MattJ
Ok, thanks... can you add a card to Trello?
Guus
nyco, could you perhaps outline a plan via mail?
MattJ
So we can track it
nyco
my estimations: we could do hundreds... of dollars, pounds, euros, but not bitcoins
MattJ
or email works too for now
nyco
sure
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MattJ
Ok, great
MattJ
3) Topics for discussion: Executive Officer replacement
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MattJ
This one probably needs Ralph's input too
MattJ
It's somewhat stalled at the moment, and we need to figure out what we can do to get it moving
MattJ
or just give up on it
Guus
We briefly discussed this last week
Guus
I think we're unsure what the exact purpose of an XO is?
MattJ
That seems to be the case
Guus
and therefore, if we have a need for one.
MattJ
We need one because the Bylaws say so, as I understand it
Guus
maybe we should invite our previous XO to discuss this with us?
MattJ
Whether we practically need one is a different matter
Guus
oh, that's a good reason to have one 🙂
Guus
"because we must."
MattJ
If it's just a title with no responsibility, then we probably have a lot more people to choose from
MattJ
If it has responsibility, we need to document what that is, in practical terms
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Guus
Maybe we should actively start to find out what those responsibilities are.
MattJ
We should get some info from Peter on this indeed (unless he already said something on that matter... I vaguely recall he may have done)
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MattJ
The last email I could find, he said "I really wasn't doing anything in that role"
Guus
Martin, would you be willing to dig into this perhaps (looking in archives, talking to Peter), and outline some rough description that we can discuss next week?
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Martin
Yup sure
Guus
Cool thanks.
MattJ
Great, thanks Martin
Guus
Having something tangible (probably misspelled) will help us to put something in action.
MattJ
End of the agenda...
MattJ
4) AOB?
nyco
nope
Guus
no AOB from me.
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Martin
Nothing from me
MattJ
5) Time of next
MattJ
+1w as usual
Guus
wfm
nyco
oui
Martin
Fine by mne
Martin
*me
Guus
Thanks!
MattJ
Meeting closed, gavel banged
MattJ
Thanks all
nyco
merci à tous ! 😉
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Guus
MattJ, any particular reason why you sent the minutes to board@?
Guus
I assumed members@ was preferred.
Guus
(board@ is not publicly accessible, I think, while these meetings are)
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MattJ
Er, because I wasn't thinking. I'll forward them
MattJ
Thanks
MattJ
Done
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Guus
ok, I'll continue to send them there then 🙂
Guus
you made me wonder
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Ge0rG
So I've created an "Online Games" category under XMPP/Uses: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/427
MattJ
Yay, thanks Ge0rG
Ge0rG
I'd love to add "Google Cloud Printing" to a Uses list, but the IoT page seems to be a definition of IoT-XMPP and not a "Projects using XMPP for IoT are"
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Guus
Ge0rG: so, change the definition? 🙂
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moparisthebest
or add a Misc category
jonasw
I’m not sure if this categorization makes sense anyways
Ge0rG
I think that IoT is a perfect match, and the definition there is actually rather confusing to me
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Ge0rG
Maybe somebody who is actually into XMPP IoT can improve that part.
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Ge0rG
There are other oddities on the webpage:
We have posted one security notice about XMPP protocols and implementations:
2014-04-04: Uncontrolled Resource Consumption with Highly-Compressed XMPP Stanzas
2012-08-21: Vulnerability in XMPP Server Dialback Implementations
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edhelas
for the store it would be nice to also sell client related things :)
Ge0rG
I signle-handedly caused that many CVEs in XMPP software.
edhelas
like buy a pack of Conversations/Dino/whatever stickers, 50% goes to the XSF
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Ge0rG
edhelas: I could imagine that projects will be interested in keeping most of the revenue from their own merch
edhelas
well for Movim I'll be fine to do 50%-50%
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MattJ
There may be some benefit to having the XSF promote and manage the store though
Ge0rG
I don't mind selling Jabber Yak faces without getting a share, but only if we get rid of that ridiculous Jabber™ 500$ fee
edhelas
depends of the merchandising, for t-shirts it can be 25-75
moparisthebest
or just get rid of the term Jabber all together!
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: what about getting rid of the term "email"
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edhelas
with a little logo "buy a tshirt, help a poor XSF guy by giving him wat… beer"
Ge0rG
that inadequately reminds me of that war on terror quote - when have you wan the war on terror, when you have remove the word "terror" from the dictionary?
moparisthebest
is email owned by evil-corp llc ?
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: no. But this is something we can't change.
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Ge0rG
The call is open for a good new name for what jabber used to be. Ideally accompanied by a large promotion budget.
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MattJ
Ge0rG, I'll add it to the members survey :)
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Ge0rG
MattJ: I'd propose "Jabber™"
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, we can change it by not using the name ever again :)
moparisthebest
I propose 'XMPP'
jonasw
XMPP is too unwieldy for end users.
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: let me tell you about Ex-MP pee!
Maranda
Pee¡
moparisthebest
I've never met anyone who couldn't say xmpp
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: have you met people who couldn't remember it?
moparisthebest
besides, 99% of people I'd just tell them to install Conversations
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jonasw
moparisthebest, you’re from the US, right? ;-)
Maranda
I've never met anyone who knew WTF xmpp is...
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Maranda
Point of views ™️
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: "how do I do Conversations on my iPhone?"
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moparisthebest
you throw away your shitty phone, and get an android
MattJ
My family barely know what I do. Trust me, "I work on this chat thing called Jabber" is received very differently to "I work on this chat thing called XMPP"
moparisthebest
see? I'm full of solutions
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: reminds me of http://n0ssc.com/posts/540-whats-the-best-iphone-aprs-app
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Ge0rG
MattJ: so "Jabber" rang a bell with your family? Or am I missing the sarcasm tag?
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Zash
Maybe we should just rebrand the whole thing to Jibber
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Maranda
The usual problem with Jabber... ™️
edhelas
can't wait to start selling muc mugs
Maranda
🐮
MattJ
Ge0rG, no sarcasm. People treat 4-letter acronyms related to computing as something incomprehensible to them, it tends to terminate the conversation
Maranda
Agreed
jonasw
can we do better with three letter acronyms? /s
edhelas
XMPP2
Maranda
But Jabber is still ™️
Ge0rG
edhelas: a MUC mug with the print "Schrödingers Chat - you don't know if you are in or out until you write a message"
Zash
"I work on a chat related piece of infrastructure"
Maranda
Relate all your complaints to that dumb strange phones maker kek
edhelas
Ge0rG :D but we're working on it, buy the mix-mug, soon released
Maranda
I wonder on a trademark related question....
Maranda
The lightbulb logo is trademarked as well by Cisco?
Maranda
That puzzles me.
Ge0rG
Maranda: https://www.jabber.org/faq.html#logo
Maranda
Dank you
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Maranda
😎
Zash
And soon nobody will have any idea what the heck that is supposed to be
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Zash
Better update it to a CFL or LED
Maranda
Hahaha
pep.
+1 for Jabber without the fee :x
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moparisthebest
I think the fee should be raised to $5,000 or even $50,000
moparisthebest
just to discourage use of a bad idea
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: you sound like Peter.
Zash
You sound like you don't understand peoples perception of price tags.
Zash
More expensive == more better!
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Maranda
🤑
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moparisthebest
as long as it stops a bad idea from being more widely used I'm fine with any perception
moparisthebest
the #1 problem is no one can even find the paperwork allowing the XSF to license it
moparisthebest
peter said he'd look in some drawers
moparisthebest
but, lets pretend such paperwork does exist for a second
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moparisthebest
XSF must enforce proper usage on it's licensees, and if they do not, cisco can revoke the license to XSF and all sub-licensees within like 2 weeks or whatever
moparisthebest
does XSF have any lawyers or any way at all to enforce proper usage?
moparisthebest
I don't think so
moparisthebest
meaning, if a single sub-licensee misuses it, cisco takes it from everyone and can sue them to oblivion
moparisthebest
and someone thinks this is a good idea?
moparisthebest
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Zash
Let's just crowdfund a buyout of Cisco.
jonasw
moparisthebest, so technically you could force that scenario by getting a sublicense and "misbehaving".
moparisthebest
yep, anyone could, even by accident
Maranda
I'll check what's left in my pouch
jonasw
I think by accident the XSF can rectify that.
moparisthebest
you think? how often does the XSF check?
jonasw
it doesn’t need to
jonasw
the paperwork I’ve seen is effective once the XSF takes notice
moparisthebest
I think it's supposed to actively enforce proper usage
moparisthebest
the only paperwork I've seen is a promise for future paperwork, none of which has been found yet
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Maranda
Ge0rG you wanted the xmpp adoption start date or the game release date or both?
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Ge0rG
Maranda: when the game deployed XMPP
Ge0rG
Maranda: with EVE it's 2018
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jjrh
Ge0rG, league of legends uses XMPP https://engineering.riotgames.com/news/chat-service-architecture-protocol
Maranda
Ge0rG, May 2010 for Cryptic Games (STO and CO at that time, NW was released in 2013)
jjrh
isn't XMPP built into the Unreal engine?
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jjrh
Maybe included is a better word
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jjrh
oh I see you have League of legends in the list.
Maranda
Ge0rG, some numbers https://sto.gamepedia.com/Global_Channel_Directory related to channels/rooms (using muc)
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Maranda
Ge0rG, EVE Online has a currently estimated playerbase of 1 million, STO of about 900k (3 millions is PWE numbers), CO of 345k, NW data for PC is about 3 millions. Although PWE asserted NW playerbase in 16 millions for NW (I suppose it could be pooled between PC and consoles)
Maranda
there you go.
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Ge0rG
Maranda: PR or didnt happen
Maranda
what am I supposed to PR, and where
Maranda
:O
Ge0rG
Maranda: follow up to https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/427
Maranda
Ge0rG, so can I just comment there? :P?
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Marandaforkes Ge0rG thing.
Ge0rG
Maranda: append a patch
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Ge0rG
jjrh: we still need to research EA Origin, among others
Maranda
Ge0rG, there you go.
Ge0rG
Maranda: wait, now you PR my PR?
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Maranda
I wasn't supposed to?
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Maranda
🤐
Ge0rG
Maranda: I thought you PR against xsf?
Ge0rG
Maranda: especially as your PR contains some 30 commits
Ge0rG
let me fix that
Maranda
Well I didn't think the gaming stuff was already in
Maranda
and I'm not sure what I did tbh I just forked your repo on github
Maranda
github did all the rest XD
Maranda
(aka the other 30 commits)
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Ge0rG
Maranda: yeah, you PRed against ge0rg:master instead of ge0rg:games, but that's ok
Ge0rG
Maranda: could you reorder them by number of users? Or shall I?
Ge0rG
I was just on the way out, the garden demands some heavylifting work.
Maranda
Ge0rG, pft *heavy lifting* :P, ok I'll do.
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Maranda
Ge0rG, ok re-ordered, it's into the pull request
Ge0rG
Maranda: thanks, I'll push that to xsf
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Ge0rG
Maranda: thanks very much, updated #427; cc jonasw
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Maranda
oh for the love of...
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Neustradamus
:)
Maranda
"Passwords can't be longer than 30 characters" too bad it's 32 already....
Marandadoesn't wanna know.
Marandajust doesn't.
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pep.
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/appstream/2018-April/000244.html GDPR related
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pep.
Apparently he also wants some kind of inline license agreement thingy
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pep.
https://github.com/hughsie/appstream-glib/commit/9974127762729c629f84731ea53f40ec0d3c2c24#diff-d98a4241d769c797c07f2b30ae80b53bR60 I'd be interested to know what the ICO thinks about this
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Maranda
o.o
Maranda
o.O
Maranda's brain segfaults reading that.
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Maranda
(the bit about NAT)
moparisthebest
I mean it's right in that an IP address does not necessarily represent a single user
moparisthebest
but it can, and often does, especially with ipv6
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pep.
You can still nat ip6 :/
pep.
Not saying in arguing in favor
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pep.
I'm*
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jjrh
and a ipv6 address doesn't always mean it's one person or even one computer. I might have many v6 addresses.
Zash
"It's complicated"
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jjrh
natting ipv6 is like using a vacuum cleaner without the bag attached
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jjrh
https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/track/real_time_communications/ was there only two XMPP talks this year or am I missing something?
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Zash
Does anyone remember me or someone talking about what to do if you block someone who sent you a subscription request?
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Zash
Hm, noone replied to https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2015-September/030394.html
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lovetox
hm on block remove all open sub requests
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Seve/SouL
`16:38:35 MattJ> My family barely know what I do. Trust me, "I work on this chat thing called Jabber" is received very differently to "I work on this chat thing called XMPP"`
Seve/SouL
"To jabber" may be something in english and I guess that's one of the reasons people prefer to say
Jabber instead of XMPP while speaking in english (apart from being called like that in the past, I know).
But in other languages, Jabber is a complete weird word as XMPP is.
It's true that Jabber is easy to pronounce but on the other hand, XMPP is called XMPP.
It's hard for me tu buy the argument where Jabber is to XMPP what e-mail is to SMTP, IMAP, POP3... because XMPP is not multiple things. It's just XMPP.
I feel more comfortable calling it by its name and that's all. It's called XMPP and we have to accept that.
One can think of creating a new shiny name, let's say Zimpy, and clients could say 'Zimpy chat client', 'Zimpy compatible', 'Based on the Zimpy network' and such stuff. But then this is just an alias for XMPP, and nothing else.
I'm not going to hide, I'm somehow attached to the XMPP term, but I understand the name does not help at all when explaining it to non technical people.
I would be open to gather together and try to find a new name that would be good marketing wise, but finding that name is a really difficult task. Names are difficult and is hard to find one that the vast majority of us would agree on.
Seve/SouL
I'm just quoting you, MattJ, nothing else, peace and love <3.
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Ge0rG
Seve/SouL: except that xmpp is many things. It is IoT, it is cloud printing, it is online game matchmaking, it is messaging
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Ge0rG
Seve/SouL: and Jabber is the federated chat network based on the xmpp protocol
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Zash
And the community.
Ge0rG
Zash: the what?
Zash
Who?
Zash
Or maybe that's "XSF & co"
Ge0rG
I wish we had the Jabber software foundation
Zash
Just Start It
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moparisthebest
Might as well just call it 'Please Sue Me Cisco, LLC'
UsL
I like XMPP. Jabber for me is the old chat system on that old company..
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Zash
Callit it Zimpy
moparisthebest
Zash: I could go for that, unless Oracle owns it or something :)
UsL
XMPP is fresher IMHO
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Zash
Funky Fresh Software Foundation
UsL
Funky != fresh
UsL
: )
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Ge0rG
The Jabber term is still very common in parts of the world where the American copyright regime hasn't arrived.
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moparisthebest
So nowhere
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UsL
Cisco and Jabber goes well together. Just like Dinosaur and Dodo does.. While XMPP feels like a fresh continuation. Like Jabber_v2. Or perhaps v4 by now.
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Zash
JABBER 2K
UsL
Millennium edition
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: you know that map of the world as seen by America? The "here be dragons" area is inhabited by people, but no copyright lawyers.
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Neustradamus
For finish about it, it is XMPP since 2004 :)
Protocol and network
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Andrew Nenakhov
Russian junkies just call it Xabber. :-/ Encryption be damned.