XSF Discussion - 2018-04-06


  1. daniel has left

  2. Anu has joined

  3. Anu has left

  4. SamWhited has left

  5. Zash has joined

  6. Zash has left

  7. Zash has joined

  8. Anu has joined

  9. Anu has left

  10. Anu has joined

  11. alexis has joined

  12. winfried has left

  13. jere has left

  14. alexis has left

  15. Anu has joined

  16. alexis has joined

  17. jere has joined

  18. alexis has left

  19. alexis has joined

  20. alexis has left

  21. alexis has joined

  22. alexis has left

  23. alexis has joined

  24. alexis has joined

  25. alexis has left

  26. SamWhited has left

  27. daniel has left

  28. alexis has joined

  29. daniel has left

  30. daniel has joined

  31. alexis has left

  32. lumi has left

  33. alexis has joined

  34. SamWhited has left

  35. Ge0rG has joined

  36. sezuan has left

  37. SamWhited has joined

  38. daniel has left

  39. SamWhited has left

  40. Zash has left

  41. Guus has left

  42. SamWhited has joined

  43. Guus has left

  44. daniel has left

  45. alexis has left

  46. alexis has joined

  47. waqas has left

  48. Anu has joined

  49. Lance has left

  50. alexis has left

  51. tux has left

  52. tux has joined

  53. alexis has joined

  54. alexis has left

  55. SamWhited has left

  56. daniel has left

  57. alexis has joined

  58. daniel has left

  59. alexis has left

  60. alexis has joined

  61. Guus has left

  62. Guus has left

  63. Lance has joined

  64. alexis has left

  65. alexis has joined

  66. daniel has left

  67. ThibG has joined

  68. waqas has joined

  69. alexis has left

  70. alexis has joined

  71. SamWhited has left

  72. alexis has left

  73. mrdoctorwho has left

  74. alexis has joined

  75. mrdoctorwho has left

  76. Guus has left

  77. alexis has left

  78. alexis has joined

  79. Dave Cridland has left

  80. lskdjf has joined

  81. Guus has left

  82. daniel has left

  83. SamWhited has left

  84. Lance has left

  85. daniel has left

  86. daniel has joined

  87. SamWhited has joined

  88. Ge0rG has joined

  89. Guus has left

  90. SamWhited has left

  91. SamWhited has joined

  92. alexis has left

  93. SamWhited has left

  94. mrdoctorwho has left

  95. alexis has joined

  96. Guus has left

  97. Anu has joined

  98. alexis has left

  99. mrdoctorwho has joined

  100. alexis has joined

  101. rion has joined

  102. rion has left

  103. rion has joined

  104. Guus has left

  105. mrdoctorwho has left

  106. Dave Cridland has left

  107. Dave Cridland has left

  108. SamWhited has joined

  109. Zash has joined

  110. SamWhited has left

  111. Dave Cridland has left

  112. SamWhited has joined

  113. mrdoctorwho has left

  114. SamWhited has left

  115. vanitasvitae has left

  116. mrdoctorwho has left

  117. Guus has left

  118. SamWhited has joined

  119. Guus has left

  120. SamWhited has left

  121. rion has left

  122. SamWhited has joined

  123. Guus has left

  124. andy has joined

  125. SamWhited has left

  126. SamWhited has joined

  127. pep. has left

  128. Guus has left

  129. vanitasvitae has left

  130. ta has joined

  131. Neustradamus has left

  132. daniel has left

  133. ibikk has joined

  134. Guus has left

  135. Dave Cridland has left

  136. jere has joined

  137. ludo has joined

  138. lskdjf has joined

  139. ludo has left

  140. ludo has joined

  141. daniel has left

  142. andy has left

  143. andy has joined

  144. Guus has left

  145. daniel has left

  146. Valerian has joined

  147. daniel has left

  148. Neustradamus has joined

  149. daniel has joined

  150. alexis has left

  151. Guus has left

  152. alexis has joined

  153. rainslide has joined

  154. lskdjf has joined

  155. daniel has left

  156. Valerian has left

  157. ludo has left

  158. ludo has joined

  159. Neustradamus has left

  160. la|r|ma has joined

  161. Neustradamus has joined

  162. SamWhited has left

  163. alexis has left

  164. lskdjf has joined

  165. alexis has joined

  166. SamWhited has left

  167. Guus has left

  168. daniel has left

  169. alexis has left

  170. alexis has joined

  171. vanitasvitae has joined

  172. andy has left

  173. andy has joined

  174. daniel has left

  175. SamWhited has left

  176. alexis has left

  177. alexis has joined

  178. Ge0rG has joined

  179. Chobbes has joined

  180. Tobias has joined

  181. daniel has left

  182. Dave Cridland has left

  183. SamWhited has left

  184. Lance has joined

  185. SamWhited has left

  186. SamWhited has joined

  187. daniel has left

  188. Dave Cridland has left

  189. Guus has left

  190. SamWhited has left

  191. SamWhited has joined

  192. SamWhited has left

  193. nyco has left

  194. goffi has joined

  195. SamWhited has joined

  196. Lance has left

  197. SamWhited has left

  198. SamWhited has joined

  199. ralphm has joined

  200. moparisthebest has joined

  201. Guus has left

  202. Valerian has joined

  203. andy has left

  204. LNJ has joined

  205. rainslide has left

  206. Valerian has left

  207. Valerian has joined

  208. Guus has left

  209. Guus has left

  210. Valerian has left

  211. Valerian has joined

  212. blabla has joined

  213. daniel has left

  214. ralphm has joined

  215. ralphm has joined

  216. Guus has left

  217. Dave Cridland has left

  218. Dave Cridland has left

  219. Valerian has left

  220. Dave Cridland has left

  221. andy has left

  222. Kev has joined

  223. daniel has left

  224. Dave Cridland has left

  225. Dave Cridland has left

  226. Dave Cridland has left

  227. Dave Cridland has left

  228. Dave Cridland has left

  229. daniel has left

  230. SaltyBones has left

  231. blabla has left

  232. Dave Cridland has left

  233. Dave Cridland has left

  234. Valerian has joined

  235. Dave Cridland has left

  236. Valerian has left

  237. Dave Cridland has left

  238. Seve/SouL

    Yes, people get scared when hear Jabber, as UsL said, people then to make 'do not like face' saying 'the old old chat thing??' (in case they know it)

  239. Dave Cridland has left

  240. jubalh has joined

  241. Kev has left

  242. Ge0rG

    I'm still waiting for a viable alternative proposal that will work without a multi million marketing campaign

  243. jubalh has left

  244. Neustradamus

    Ge0rG: first migrate the planet to xmpp.org ^^

  245. UsL

    so I replied in operators@ instead of here.. : S

  246. UsL

    still havent had my morning coffee :O

  247. nyco has left

  248. Chobbes has left

  249. Chobbes has joined

  250. rion has left

  251. daniel has left

  252. winfried has left

  253. Steve Kille has left

  254. SaltyBones has left

  255. waqas has left

  256. daniel has left

  257. Steve Kille has joined

  258. ludo has left

  259. ludo has joined

  260. edhelas

    I have more and more spam each days

  261. Ge0rG

    UsL: you might associate Jabber with a low-quality implementation, but at least you know what it is about.

  262. blabla has joined

  263. Guus has left

  264. edhelas

    my only solution for now is to blacklist more and more servers

  265. ralphm has joined

  266. daniel has left

  267. SaltyBones has left

  268. Guus has left

  269. Valerian has joined

  270. Guus has left

  271. jubalh has joined

  272. Guus

    I frown upon people not taking their morning coffee ceremony seriously.

  273. Guus

    (afk, getting coffee)

  274. Ge0rG

    Guus: have a nice weekend

  275. Guus

    Weekend? We've got an entire workday ahead of us 🙂

  276. Ge0rG

    Guus: in that case you don't take your morning coffee ceremony sufficiently serious.

  277. intosi

    Broken records are broken.

  278. Guus

    yes, that was the implied joke.

  279. Neustradamus

    https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/header_slider/public/display_list/friday.jpg

  280. Guus has left

  281. Guus has left

  282. Guus has left

  283. ta has joined

  284. winfried has left

  285. ralphm has left

  286. Maranda

    Just one coffee??!!

  287. Maranda looks at his the "quadruple" espresso coffee cup.

  288. Maranda

    s/the//

  289. Ge0rG 's got a 475ml on-the-go coffee cup.

  290. Guus

    My office is also my kitchen, where the espresso machine is. 😊

  291. ralphm has joined

  292. intosi

    Deliberately keeping my coffee machine two floors down from my office ;)

  293. daniel has left

  294. Martin has joined

  295. ta has left

  296. ta has joined

  297. winfried has left

  298. daniel has left

  299. Guus has left

  300. marmistrz has left

  301. marmistrz has left

  302. marmistrz has left

  303. Guus has left

  304. Alex has joined

  305. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  306. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  307. daniel has left

  308. UsL

    yes, that is the case. Still, jabber and the lightbulb feels dated compared to xmpp and the xmpp logo. Is it supposed to be two horns? Or two of those ancient looking baskets that Miss Fortuna held. Cornucopia. Had to look it up.

  309. UsL

    haha, I'll try to coffee before talking hence forth

  310. Guus has left

  311. efrit has joined

  312. vanitasvitae has left

  313. lumi has joined

  314. Ge0rG

    UsL: nobody knows I think.

  315. Ge0rG

    There was a long logo discussion last year

  316. UsL

    the description fits though: "commonly a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers or nuts."

  317. UsL

    : D

  318. UsL

    nuts!

  319. Ge0rG

    The only thing I can agree on. We are all nuts.

  320. UsL

    that settles it. The logo depicts two cornucopias

  321. andy has left

  322. daniel has left

  323. remko has joined

  324. Guus has left

  325. Maranda

    🤔

  326. Maranda

    🤯

  327. Guus has left

  328. Seve/SouL

    I love the XMPP logo

  329. Seve/SouL

    Feels modern

  330. Seve/SouL

    (subjective I know)

  331. Maranda

    Too bad that normal people can't stop going "what" whenever you mention "ECS-AM-PEE-PEE" who knows maybe it's the two final P ™️. Thoughts?

  332. Ge0rG

    Maranda: just ask them for their JID then.

  333. Maranda

    😎

  334. daniel has left

  335. Guus

    I think the logo form is based on the 'X' in XMPP.

  336. Maranda

    UsL was till on the way out of his trip with "cornucopias and stuff" me thinks

  337. Maranda

    s/till/still/

  338. Ge0rG

    Maranda: so you are processing urine of former military police personnel? That's noble.

  339. Zash

    The pointy bit of speech balloons?

  340. Maranda

    Ge0rG 🤨 that statement didn't 🖥

  341. Maranda

    E_CONTEXT

  342. Ge0rG

    Maranda: ex MP pee.

  343. Maranda

    Ohh

  344. Maranda

    😆

  345. Guus has left

  346. vanitasvitae has joined

  347. Zash

    Members of Parliament?

  348. daniel has left

  349. Guus has left

  350. remko has left

  351. remko has joined

  352. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  353. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  354. Dave Cridland has left

  355. rainslide has joined

  356. Guus has left

  357. Holger

    Zash, flow: Seems I'm missing something regarding "Blocking of subscription request denials"? What's the problem with the server (1) handling my 'unsubscribed' presence as usual but (2) not forwarding it to the requester?

  358. Holger

    flow: > on subsequent incoming requests from the blocked entity have the server send an error (or rejection) presence. This would clearly violate 0191 ("For presence stanzas (including notifications, subscriptions, and probes), the server MUST NOT respond and MUST NOT return an error"), no?

  359. Ge0rG

    Zash: those, too.

  360. lumi has left

  361. pep. has joined

  362. jubalh has left

  363. vanitasvitae has joined

  364. j.r has joined

  365. vanitasvitae has joined

  366. jubalh has joined

  367. daniel has left

  368. sezuan has left

  369. Bunneh has left

  370. Bunneh has joined

  371. j.r has joined

  372. remko has left

  373. vanitasvitae has joined

  374. vanitasvitae has joined

  375. flow

    Holger, I'm not sure if we talk about the same thing anymore. What I have in mind is: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) B blocks A; at 2 A's server could reject the sub request from the blocked entity

  376. flow

    What is the rationale of xep191 becoming a presence blackhole?

  377. alexis has left

  378. Zash

    Holger: Possibly an implementation detail. Gets complicated for one plugin to let another do some of the processing for an event but not other.

  379. vanitasvitae has joined

  380. flow

    Holger, you seem to talk about: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) A blocks B; 3) B rejects A's sub request

  381. j.r has joined

  382. flow

    In which case I'd also say that the server should simply process the rejection (unsubscribed) as usual

  383. jonasw

    winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry

  384. jonasw has left

  385. daniel has left

  386. Zash

    flow: You send me a sub request. I block you, then I deny that request. I get an error because I blocked you, and then I get the request sent to me every time I sign in with no way to do anything about it.

  387. Alex has left

  388. Zash

    Holger: ^

  389. Valerian has left

  390. Holger

    flow: No I didn't talk about the latter case but about the one Zash repeated now.

  391. daniel has joined

  392. Holger

    I can easily see this being meh to implement. I was just wondering whether I got the scenario wrong. Maybe I didn't after all :-)

  393. alexis has joined

  394. Zash

    Might be a case of "being modular is hard"

  395. marmistrz has left

  396. flow

    You get an error if you send a stanza to an entity you have blocked?

  397. Zash

    > If the user attempts to send an outbound stanza to the JID, the user's > server MUST NOT route the stanza to the JID but instead MUST return a > <not-acceptable/> error [...]

  398. flow

    bummer

  399. Zash

    I suppose you could argue that presence management stanzas are not outbound stanzas.

  400. Holger

    Zash: So process the stanza and send an error :-)

  401. flow

    I wonder what's the rationale behind that

  402. Holger

    Zash: Hah I thought I'm kidding but seems that's ejabberd's behavior.

  403. Holger

    Probably does the trick in practice.

  404. rion has left

  405. Zash

    Looks like Prosody would send the not-acceptable error to itself, not to the user, if presence handling was done before blocking.

  406. daniel has left

  407. rion has left

  408. Holger

    Talking to yourself can be healthy.

  409. Zash

    We're already breaking another MUST so that you don't get a ton of not-acceptable in response to normal presence broadcasts, in case you've blocked a bunch of subscription=both|from contacts

  410. Ge0rG

    what's wrong with that not-acceptable? It allows the client to show the contact as "bad"

  411. blabla has left

  412. Holger has left

  413. winfried has left

  414. blabla has joined

  415. daniel has joined

  416. Holger

    Zash: What MUST are you breaking in that case?

  417. Zash

    That same one I quoted above

  418. Zash

    It doesn't distinguish between presence stanzas sent from the server and those sent from the user.

  419. Zash

    Ge0rG: Hmmm

  420. daniel has left

  421. Ge0rG

    Can we persist error messages in offline storage/MAM?

  422. jubalh has joined

  423. marmistrz has left

  424. Guus has left

  425. Zash has left

  426. Kev has left

  427. Zash has left

  428. Dave Cridland has left

  429. Zash has joined

  430. Anu has joined

  431. Dave Cridland has left

  432. SaltyBones has joined

  433. Holger

    Zash: A presence broadcast qualifies as an attempt "to send an outbound stanza to the JID"?

  434. lumi has joined

  435. rion has left

  436. xnyhps has joined

  437. Zash

    How do you know your denial was processed

  438. Guus has left

  439. j.r has joined

  440. ludo has left

  441. ludo has joined

  442. SaltyBones has left

  443. Holger has left

  444. remko has joined

  445. j.r has joined

  446. SaltyBones has joined

  447. daniel has left

  448. ludo has left

  449. ludo has joined

  450. alexis has left

  451. alexis has joined

  452. blabla has joined

  453. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  454. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  455. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  456. ludo has left

  457. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  458. ludo has joined

  459. Guus has left

  460. remko has left

  461. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  462. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  463. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  464. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  465. daniel has left

  466. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  467. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  468. pep.

    GDPR meeting in 5min!

  469. Ge0rG

    Uh-oh!

  470. Ge0rG

    I'm totally unprepared.

  471. winfried has left

  472. ludo has left

  473. ludo has joined

  474. winfried

    Sorry, will be late and have to leave early

  475. Valerian has joined

  476. ThibG has joined

  477. Ge0rG attempts to remember who the other GDPR expert was some days ago

  478. ThibG has joined

  479. pep.

    !

  480. pep.

    jonasw, ?

  481. Ge0rG

    pep.: jonasw> winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry

  482. pep.

    okay

  483. pep.

    Shall we start anyway? Have a look at what's left

  484. pep.

    winfried, how long do you have

  485. Anu

    Me?

  486. Anu

    Where is gdpr meeting? Here?

  487. pep.

    Appart from the LQ{1,2}, I think we've covered the C2S case pretty much already?

  488. pep.

    Anu, yes

  489. Ge0rG

    Anu: here and now, though we are missing some people

  490. pep.

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR

  491. Anu

    Also dealing with baby so I might lurk

  492. Ge0rG

    hi Anu! :)

  493. pep.

    I'm taking minutes of whatever this will be :p

  494. Anu

    I’ll try to participate to the best of my ability

  495. Ge0rG

    It looks like we are missing two participants, including our chair.

  496. Ge0rG

    I can try to chair a bit, but I'm rather unprepared, so brace for a very loosely organized session

  497. pep.

    I guess we'll do it short and plan another date

  498. winfried is present

  499. pep.

    winfried, ready?

  500. Ge0rG

    I think we have multiple points that still need to be worked out: Q1.1d List legal grounds for the processing - that didn't feel quite finished to me, especially regarding federation Q1.1e Analyse possible consequences Q1.2: What consequences does the GDPR has for the XMPP server operators Q1.3: What can/should the XSF do with it?

  501. winfried

    have to leave at 14:00 CEST (35 minutes from now)

  502. winfried

    Ge0rG: yes, S2S / federation is still open

  503. Ge0rG

    I've briefly looked at GDPR work in the IETF, but didn't find something like a WG, it's just a topic in different sub-orgs

  504. Ge0rG has left

  505. Ge0rG

    Anu wanted to add more lawyer questions, which I'd like to hear as well

  506. jere has joined

  507. winfried

    Anu: yes, please!

  508. Ge0rG

    Maybe we can ask Board for some budget regarding those.

  509. Anu

    1: what level of logging is legal on xmpp servers

  510. Zash has left

  511. Anu

    2: what info (presence/server logs) counts as pii and has to be purged when right to be forgotten is involved

  512. Ge0rG

    Anu: I think that server logs are pretty well covered under recital 49

  513. winfried

    Anu: +1 @ Ge0rG

  514. alexis has left

  515. Ge0rG

    http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-49-GDPR.htm

  516. winfried

    Anu: pii is also quite well defined

  517. Ge0rG

    winfried: is it really?

  518. Ge0rG

    I think there is still no clear consensus whether IP addresses are PII or not ,)

  519. winfried

    Ge0rG: they are

  520. alexis has joined

  521. winfried

    (but IPadresses are a nice edge-case)

  522. pep.

    I was also told they are. But yeah they might not identify just one individual

  523. andy has left

  524. Ge0rG

    Anu: the questions are also very technical. You'd have to explain to the lawyer how XMPP works, first.

  525. alexis has left

  526. alexis has joined

  527. daniel has left

  528. andy has joined

  529. Dave Cridland has left

  530. winfried

    For the process right now: I propose we take a look at the tasks at hand check if we can do some of them before the next meeting and plan a next meeting...

  531. daniel has left

  532. pep.

    sure

  533. winfried

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR

  534. daniel has left

  535. winfried

    I added 'TBD' on some places Q1.1d still needs some more details and from Q1.1e everything is work in progress.

  536. Ge0rG

    winfried: yeah. We should talk about federation now

  537. pep.

    I feel Q1.1e is going to be even more speculation than the rest

  538. winfried

    pep.: yes

  539. Alex has joined

  540. Ge0rG

    pep.: I think there are some non-speculative parts in e. Like how to do a data retention policy, and how to implement the right to be forgotten

  541. winfried

    Ge0rG: Yes, starting with Q1.1b on S2S

  542. pep.

    Ge0rG, ok I wouldn't have put right to be forgotten in 1.1e

  543. winfried

    Next TBD Q1.1c on S2S

  544. Ge0rG

    so let's do S2S 1.1b and c

  545. pep.

    k

  546. Guus has left

  547. winfried

    pep.: 1.1e is *very* speculative

  548. blabla has joined

  549. Ge0rG

    for 1.1b S2S: - s2s meta-data (IP addresses, hostnames, sessions, probably server logs) - I don't think the GDPR applies - user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing) - user content (messages, pubsub, ...)

  550. Martin has left

  551. pep.

    s2s meta-data, I think GDPR is out as well, it's not somebody's private info

  552. winfried

    agree

  553. Ge0rG

    - MUC history, MUC MAM

  554. daniel has left

  555. pep.

    Ok

  556. Ge0rG

    anything else for 1.1b?

  557. winfried

    can't think of anything right now

  558. pep.

    I think that covers pretty much everything

  559. Ge0rG

    remote components

  560. pep.

    include pubsub in there then

  561. Ge0rG

    there is component access to roster, I don't know which kind of data is a transport allowed to access there

  562. Anu

    3: when an xmpp opeator is fined is it based on personal income if they are non profit?

  563. winfried

    remote_vibrator.tilanus.com? ;-)

  564. Ge0rG

    Anu: 3 -> no

  565. pep.

    Ge0rG, I would consider that as standard s2s

  566. Ge0rG

    Anu: the fine is max(0.04*turnover, 200k€) - so even if you are broke, you can be fined 200k€

  567. vanitasvitae has left

  568. winfried

    Who can add this to the wiki? One TBD down then!

  569. Valerian has left

  570. pep.

    winfried, I'm taking the minutes

  571. Ge0rG

    pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0321.html#request_roster

  572. winfried

    pep.: thanks!

  573. pep.

    Ge0rG, hmm

  574. Ge0rG

    Remote Roster Management requires explicit user consent, and provides information about it, so I suppose this is well covered by the existing legal framework

  575. Ge0rG

    However, I'd like to have Remote Roster Management explicitly listed as a data type

  576. winfried

    Ge0rG: +1

  577. winfried

    good catch

  578. Guus has left

  579. pep.

    cool

  580. Ge0rG

    next: Q1.1c

  581. winfried

    - transfer to an other controller

  582. daniel has left

  583. SaltyBones has left

  584. winfried

    - archiving (MAM, MAM on MUC)

  585. Ge0rG

    - s2s meta-data - typically just inside of server logs, so R49 probably applies - user meta-data: all transfer requires (implicit) user consent - by joining a MUC or sending a message to somebody or accepting a subscription

  586. pep.

    I had a legalese 101 question, what is meant by "third-party country" in chapter 5? Does that mean it only applies when transfering data to *other* countries?

  587. Ge0rG

    pep.: non-EU

  588. winfried

    pep.: transfer to non-EU is also a possible processing here....

  589. pep.

    So they always use this third-party country term from what I gathered, where is transfer within EU entites defined then

  590. winfried

    pep.: No, 5 is about transfer out the EU

  591. pep.

    I see

  592. Ge0rG

    winfried: does it matter if we do s2s inside or outside the EU?

  593. winfried

    Ge0rG: Yes

  594. Ge0rG

    then we need to separate that

  595. winfried

    outside chapter 5 applies, inside not

  596. pep.

    That's going to be fun

  597. winfried

    *big time*

  598. pep.

    Zash, be prepared to see a mod_gdpr appear at some point :p

  599. winfried

    pep.: before may the 25th :-P

  600. pep.

    heh

  601. winfried

    I have to leave soon :-(

  602. winfried

    new appointment?

  603. pep.

    Ok, we should do date of next

  604. pep.

    I'm free anytime. monday same time?

  605. winfried

    wfm

  606. winfried

    though monday better a bit earlier

  607. pep.

    What time?

  608. Valerian has joined

  609. winfried

    starting between 9:00 and 12:00 CEST works the best for me

  610. daniel has left

  611. Ge0rG

    I can starting 10:30CEST

  612. winfried

    jonasw: any possibility?

  613. pep.

    err that's 9:30am here ><

  614. pep.

    I'll have to get up

  615. pep.

    But ok

  616. pep.

    winfried, jonasw is not here. will try to ping him during the weekend

  617. winfried

    pep.: thanks

  618. pep.

    So monday 10:30CEST it is then?

  619. winfried

    yes

  620. pep.

    cool, *bang*

  621. winfried

    CU!

  622. winfried has left

  623. pep.

    Ge0rG, I would rename your "user meta-data" above in Q1.1c to "user data", it's talking about messages etc.

  624. ta has left

  625. winfried has left

  626. Ge0rG

    pep.: no, it's message routing metadata

  627. pep.

    Ok so we still have to cover user content then, that works

  628. pep.

    Though winfried mentioned MAM etc.

  629. Ge0rG

    MAM contains both

  630. alexis has joined

  631. pep.

    https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/Zc1c+aBtFP-49TYSX0T+7g/VcSdjDmU9rC0crMKwQyiehe9/ what I have for now. I'll have another read after lunch

  632. Dave Cridland has left

  633. nyco has left

  634. Anu

    Meeting still happening?

  635. Ge0rG

    Anu: nope

  636. alexis has joined

  637. Anu

    Aw ok

  638. Anu

    Looks like it was productive

  639. Anu

    Mod gdpr will probably be needed

  640. Anu

    Honestly gdpr is the biggest gift to walled garden monolithic messaging systems. Unless you control the whole stack it’s hard to be compliant

  641. alexis has left

  642. alexis has joined

  643. Anu

    I’m wondering if xmpp will even be legal. It was made from another time and merrily leaks ip addresses to other servers

  644. Anu

    E.g push servers get device ips

  645. Ge0rG

    Anu: push servers like Google and Apple? They have your IP anyway

  646. Ge0rG

    Anu: I don't see how XMPP is different from email

  647. Anu

    No push like push.monal.im that use Apple to push to your device

  648. alexis has left

  649. Anu

    I know chatsecure and conversations have similar push servers

  650. Guus has left

  651. Holger

    Anu: Registration with the push service for Conversations works without revealing the IP address, though.

  652. Ge0rG

    Anu: push.monal.im talks to your XMPP server and to Apple APNS, not to the client

  653. pep.

    Yeah it's quite similar to email and I don't think they'd want to get rid of this. Also I didn't see anything federation specific in Google's policies

  654. Anu

    The out of band registration will log the device ip on the push server

  655. Holger

    (It's done via XMPP, i.e. routed over your server.)

  656. Holger

    Anu: In your case, yes.

  657. Ge0rG

    Anu: that's not part of the XEP, is it?

  658. Holger

    Right, the XEP doesn't specify how to register.

  659. Anu

    Or I’m mixing protocols :( hold on

  660. Anu

    Let me see

  661. Ge0rG

    so should I switch my father-in-law from ChatSecure to Monal now?

  662. Holger

    Anu: AFAIK clients register against push.monal.im via HTTP and thereby reveal their IP address (short of using some proxy), yes. I'm just saying it doesn't have to work this way, and doesn't for Conversations (but also for ChatSecure IIRC).

  663. Anu

    Not yet . I haven’t published the libsignal stuff

  664. Ge0rG

    Anu: no need for E2EE, just chat and http-upload

  665. Ge0rG

    not even MUCs

  666. daniel has left

  667. lskdjf has joined

  668. Anu

    Bah you know I I’m tired when I don’t remember how my own push service works :(

  669. Anu

    Oh right it’s s2s in with token info

  670. Anu

    Tokens should be suitably pseudoanonymized

  671. Holger

    Anu: The actual registration step is via HTTP, AFAIK :-)

  672. Anu

    Ok

  673. Anu

    The rest call

  674. remko has joined

  675. Holger

    Yeah.

  676. Holger

    https://github.com/tmolitor-stud-tu/mod_push_appserver

  677. Anu

    Phew I thought I was thinking of another protocol

  678. Valerian has left

  679. Guus has left

  680. Holger

    :-)

  681. Valerian has joined

  682. jonasw

    monday 10:30 CEST wfm if we don’t draw it out too long, Ge0rG, winfried

  683. jonasw

    I’d like to leave at 11:30 CEST

  684. Anu

    No joke I have like four of them swirling in my head and they are all usually very similar

  685. Ge0rG

    Holger: is there a TL;DR about setting up push on an xmpp server the right way?

  686. Valerian has left

  687. Valerian has joined

  688. Valerian has left

  689. Valerian has joined

  690. Valerian has left

  691. Holger

    Ge0rG: For ejabberd you enable mod_push and mod_push_keepalive, but that's probably not what you meant?

  692. pep.

    jonasw: cool

  693. valo has joined

  694. Ge0rG

    Holger: yeah, in retrospect it was pretty dumb to ask you things about my server.

  695. daniel

    I think the process on prosody isn't much harder

  696. Anu

    Yeah it’s pretty straightforward on prosody

  697. Anu

    That’s what I use

  698. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure if it's ChatSecure then that's borked, or if my father-in-law can't properly use his phone.

  699. jere has joined

  700. Holger

    mod_cloud_notify now supports the mod_push_keepalive magic AFAIK, at least partly.

  701. daniel

    I think for chatsecure you might want to look at the patched mod_cloud_notifiy

  702. Holger

    Hm or maybe not.

  703. daniel

    Don't ask me why that isn't mainline though

  704. Ge0rG

    daniel: patched where?

  705. Holger

    It is now.

  706. Holger

    Well a variant of it.

  707. Ge0rG

    since when?

  708. Holger

    (The same variant I'm going for with ejabberd.)

  709. Ge0rG

    So many questions. All off topic

  710. Anu

    Is the keep alive to keep the connection open?

  711. daniel

    Holger: a variant that is compat with Chatsecure?

  712. Holger

    daniel: Yes.

  713. daniel

    Cool

  714. Anu

    Why?

  715. daniel

    Anu: it's to check if the connection is still alive and if not send a push as a wakeup signal

  716. Holger

    Anu: It's to keep the stream management session open, yes. Mostly to make push notifications work for MUC messages.

  717. Anu

    Isn’t the whole point that we use the push to signal time to wake up

  718. Anu

    ah

  719. Anu

    Oh man so do you guys see me going offline constantly?

  720. Holger

    Anu: The client disconnects but the session remains alive.

  721. Anu

    Ah cool that’s exactly what I need!

  722. Anu

    I’ve only been using Monal with muc and push

  723. Holger

    Anu: For this to work, you must close the TCP session without terminating the XMPP stream.

  724. Anu

    Yes

  725. Guus has left

  726. Anu

    And resume it ok wake up

  727. Ge0rG

    The next thing we need to design: MUC notification filtering, where the mobile client doesn't need to be joined all the time but can connect and MAM-sync when the user is highlighted

  728. Anu

    Thats what I do now but user showing up as offline when I close the tcp connection has been driving me nuts

  729. Holger

    Anu: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html and https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html

  730. Holger

    Anu: I'm not sure whether mod_cloud_notify can be configured to do that.

  731. Ge0rG

    prosody will keep the session visible as online as long as smacks doesn't kill the zombie

  732. Anu

    I’m thinking about a completely non invasive fix for this on the client side. Ditch offline, it’s not really a thing anymore. It doesn’t solve the muc issue though

  733. Holger

    Ge0rG: But there's no hack to increase the timeout for the push case?

  734. Ge0rG

    Anu: "offline" is a limited use case, but "dnd" is rather important, I'd say

  735. Holger

    Ge0rG: Wouldn't you just silence your phone rather than hoping your contacts will respect that status?

  736. remko has left

  737. jonasw

    Holger, but letting contacts know that they won’t have success with sending you a message is probably nice?

  738. jonasw

    also maybe a thing which lets a sender override that dnd silence if and only if they are in some whitelist

  739. Holger

    I think "last activity" is a better indicator for success chances.

  740. Ge0rG

    Holger: my jabber goes dnd when I silence my phone.

  741. jonasw

    e.g. "people from the family group may circumvent phone dnd (raise a priority notification) if asked for"

  742. Holger

    jonasw: I mean in theory I see your point but in practice presence status is just always wrong.

  743. jonasw

    Holger, is it?

  744. Ge0rG

    Holger: I think "last activity" is a nice addon to proper dnd signaling

  745. jonasw

    Ge0rG, if I had that setting, I would always be dnd :)

  746. jonasw

    it would be great if the presence was reflected by the actual DND status of the phone.

  747. daniel has left

  748. Holger

    Ge0rG: My phone does the same, but I'm often available despite my phone being quiet. It's just always wrong.

  749. alexis has joined

  750. jonasw

    (not sure if this is lineageos specific, but it has a neat DND mode where you can say either priority only, alarms only or total silence for N hours)

  751. jonasw

    (or by time)

  752. Ge0rG

    jonasw: that lineageos mode is fucking with my brains.

  753. jonasw

    how?

  754. Ge0rG

    there used to be (silent+alarms|vibration|normal) and then they split up the first one into two different ones

  755. Ge0rG

    and one of them ended up also silencing the alarm.

  756. Ge0rG

    Really, who on earth wants their alarm silenced?

  757. pep.

    I say it's a valid use case

  758. jonasw

    there is probably a use-case for that.

  759. jonasw

    think small children wihch might be woken up or something, meetings of indefinite duration, …

  760. Ge0rG

    ...coming late to work.

  761. jubalh has joined

  762. ta has joined

  763. alexis has left

  764. alexis has joined

  765. Dave Cridland has left

  766. alexis has left

  767. alexis has joined

  768. jonasw

    that only happened when it -- I think -- didn’t reset the alarm volume after I accidentally triggered total silence

  769. alexis has left

  770. Zash has left

  771. Dave Cridland has left

  772. jere has joined

  773. Anu

    My phone is permanent silenced haha

  774. Dave Cridland has left

  775. Anu

    I don’t even know what my alert tones are

  776. Anu

    But that might be a very narrow use case.

  777. Dave Cridland has left

  778. Martin has joined

  779. Anu

    I honestly think one problem for xmpp is that there are mobile and desktop clients. Mobile will almost never be offline or away

  780. Anu

    Desktop might be.

  781. Ge0rG

    Anu: there are people shutting down wifi and mobile data over night

  782. Anu

    Really? That’s a thing?

  783. Ge0rG

    Anu: and there are people going outside of network coverage for hours

  784. andy has left

  785. jonasw

    Anu, it is a thing, I’m one of them

  786. Ge0rG

    my worst case is to take long phones when on 2G

  787. jonasw

    my phones battery doesn’t like if conversations is in 20 MUCs overnight for no reason.

  788. Ge0rG

    jonasw: but it is there for a reason!

  789. Anu

    Haha

  790. Ge0rG

    you could miss an xmpp rant!

  791. Holger

    Anu: I'm not sure the presence status is really that useful on the desktop either.

  792. Anu

    I’ve been thinking a lot about my ui choices and how they are rooted in 90s tech

  793. Anu

    I still have status under the username in the contact list

  794. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I can read up on XMPP rants in poezio :>

  795. Anu

    No one pays status anymore

  796. Anu

    Posts

  797. Anu

    It was a proto Twitter

  798. Ge0rG

    Anu: Kev suggested to rework status from a per-client thing to a per-account thing. It would make more sense then

  799. Holger

    Ge0rG: Would the result be much different from how clients show presence today?

  800. Seve/SouL

    I have my alarm silenced by the way

  801. Ge0rG

    Holger: probably not

  802. Seve/SouL

    I wake up just with the phone's vibration (although I usually wake up some minutes before it starts)

  803. Zash

    pep.: Make it so

  804. pep.

    Not exactly sure what would go in there though

  805. Ge0rG

    Anu: is there a Monal iOS beta program?

  806. pep.

    `forbid_non_compliant_s2s = true` :o

  807. ta has joined

  808. ta has joined

  809. Ge0rG

    Anu: if I "delete this account" from Monal, will it delete the account on the server or just the client setup for it?

  810. SamWhited has left

  811. SamWhited has joined

  812. Ge0rG

    hm. the latest version is a year old and doesn't show contact names, but shows multiple JIDs per contact.

  813. goffi has left

  814. andy has left

  815. daniel has left

  816. ta has left

  817. Zash has left

  818. matlag has joined

  819. Dave Cridland has left

  820. ralphm has left

  821. ralphm has joined

  822. alexis has joined

  823. Zash has left

  824. Dave Cridland has left

  825. Dave Cridland has left

  826. alexis has left

  827. alexis has joined

  828. winfried has left

  829. alexis has left

  830. Maranda

    EU is becoming a mass of demented nonsense, well it was already but now it's even more.

  831. alexis has joined

  832. andy has left

  833. daniel has left

  834. la|r|ma has joined

  835. la|r|ma has joined

  836. Maranda waits for the "comprehensible TODO" summary about GDPR.

  837. Maranda

    Without the vomiting lagalese included. 😠

  838. pep.

    You'll have to deal with that vomiting legalese anyway

  839. SamWhited has left

  840. daniel has left

  841. daniel has left

  842. alexis has joined

  843. Dave Cridland has left

  844. ralphm has joined

  845. SamWhited has left

  846. alexis has left

  847. alexis has joined

  848. daniel has left

  849. Valerian has joined

  850. alexis has left

  851. alexis has joined

  852. Valerian has left

  853. Maranda

    Not all of that pepe, I'm sure that 80% is as usual incomprehensible blah blah that ends in a possible "compression ratio" of 3/4

  854. daniel has left

  855. LNJ

    I started implementing SIMS (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html) in my XMPP client. The XEP tells me that data sent using Bits of Binary (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html) is stored on the server, but I can't find any definition of a protocol to send such data to the server. Also e.g. prosody says that the Bits of Binary XEP is server independant and thus works even if the server doesn't support it. I also can't find an implementation for ejabberd. Can somebody explain that? :D

  856. Ge0rG

    hey LNJ, you are working on Kaidan, right?

  857. Anu

    Ge0rg: will not delete from server.

  858. Anu

    There is a beta I can invite you to

  859. LNJ

    Ge0rg: Yep, that's right

  860. daniel

    LNJ: you basically just put base64 stuff in the same stanza

  861. Ge0rG

    Anu: yes please

  862. daniel

    On the root level of the stanza

  863. LNJ

    So of the root level of the SIMS Stanza?

  864. daniel

    No on the root level of the message stanza

  865. LNJ

    Ah ok

  866. daniel

    And then the Sims reference references that

  867. LNJ

    But isn't the BoB XEP saying to not include the data directly, if it's larger than ~1 KiB?

  868. daniel

    Yew

  869. daniel

    Yes

  870. efrit has left

  871. LNJ

    Ok, so I'll just ignore that fact ...

  872. LNJ

    :D

  873. daniel

    Ignore that. But keep them reasonable small I guess

  874. Ge0rG

    daniel: is SIMS the new OOB?

  875. daniel

    The entire stanza including mam overhead should be less than 10k bytes

  876. alexis has left

  877. daniel

    I was planning on generating thumbs with 2kb or 3

  878. andy has left

  879. alexis has joined

  880. LNJ

    Ok then it should into 10 kB

  881. Valerian has joined

  882. LNJ

    * should fit

  883. daniel

    Just to be clear you could request bob from the other party in an iq request as well

  884. daniel

    That defeats the stateless part though

  885. daniel

    But bob would allow you to do that

  886. daniel

    Ge0rG: some people want it to be the new oob

  887. daniel

    I'm not entirely convinced

  888. daniel

    Partially because of the weirdness I've just talked about

  889. Ge0rG

    References has weirdness, SIMS does, OOB does too (in the IQ section)

  890. LNJ

    But that's not very nice if the other use has to be online. But I'll implement that as well, just for the case. :D

  891. Ge0rG

    Madness everywhere

  892. Zash

    People are weird

  893. Valerian has left

  894. Valerian has joined

  895. daniel

    I'm relatively convinced that the way I just described it is the way it is supposed to work (sticking it in the root of the message). However that is entirely unclear after reading the xep

  896. efrit has joined

  897. Ge0rG

    daniel: will you replace OOB with SIMS? References?

  898. daniel

    Replace. Probably not. Maybe I do both. I'm mostly in it for the thumbs

  899. SamWhited has left

  900. daniel

    While other people are in it for the mime tag

  901. daniel

    *most other people

  902. daniel

    But ux wise this opens a can of worms on the Conversations side

  903. Chobbes has joined

  904. daniel

    That's why i have been pushing this off

  905. jonasw

    hm, the last argument of yours on this I heard was "how does it work with e2ee"?

  906. Dave Cridland has left

  907. Ge0rG

    daniel: btw, how does Conversations handle non-picture uploads like PDF, or pictures that are attached instead of recompressed?

  908. Dave Cridland has left

  909. daniel

    it doesn't. but i don’t care. i'm just doing thumbs different in omemo

  910. jonasw

    so, virtually everywhere?

  911. daniel

    :-)

  912. alexis has left

  913. daniel

    public mucs

  914. alexis has joined

  915. jonasw

    so you’d auto-download/show content in public MUCs?

  916. daniel

    that's where thumbs will be used most of the time anyway

  917. daniel

    because they are not auto downloaded

  918. daniel

    unlike the rest of conversations

  919. jonasw

    ah I wa sthinking you were replacing auto-download with auto-show-thumbs-and-tap-for-full-version

  920. daniel

    mhhh maybe not. i still think i'll be autodownloading files by default

  921. daniel has left

  922. remko has joined

  923. daniel

    users can always turn that of. and having thumbs might make that more attractive

  924. daniel

    haven't thought about that before you brought that up

  925. jonasw

    maybe auto-fetch thumbs and download full versions when and only while the conversation is in view?

  926. daniel

    yeah maybe. first things first though. implement thumbs and aftewards we can maybe think about changing the auto download defaults

  927. ludo has left

  928. ludo has joined

  929. daniel

    Ge0rG, things that exceed the auto download size currently have a normal button that says 'donwload pdf document'

  930. daniel

    or download mime/type if it's not well known

  931. Maranda wonders how'll that work with gdpr.

  932. Maranda

    (auto fetching thumbs)

  933. daniel

    and files for which i do not have a thumbnail after download will just display an open $foo button

  934. Ge0rG

    you leak your IP if you are browsing images in any random web forum, so meh.

  935. Ge0rG

    daniel: if you plan to auto-download, there is no need to pursue thumbs. Except for huge files

  936. Maranda

    Ge0rG, *made in legalese*

  937. daniel

    yes like i said the way it currently works they will mostly be shown in mucs

  938. daniel

    where i don't have auto download

  939. lumi has joined

  940. alexis has left

  941. daniel

    but they open the door to changing the auto download behaviour as jonas and i were just discussing

  942. daniel

    plus fancy

  943. alexis has joined

  944. Guus has left

  945. Dave Cridland has left

  946. daniel has left

  947. daniel has left

  948. remko has left

  949. Syndace has left

  950. Syndace has joined

  951. Guus has left

  952. marmistrz has left

  953. tux has joined

  954. moparisthebest has left

  955. Dave Cridland has left

  956. Ge0rG

    LNJ: do you happen to have a Kaidan MUC?

  957. LNJ

    Well ... yes, but after file uploads

  958. LNJ

    AH .. you mean a channel

  959. Ge0rG

    LNJ: yes. A place where I can bother you without going through github

  960. LNJ

    Yes there was one at kaidan@conference.siacs.eu .. but I'd prefer a new on the new kaidan.im server

  961. LNJ

    Wait, I'll create one ..

  962. Seve/SouL

    Thanks, LNJ.

  963. Ge0rG was hosting the inofficial dino MUC for a while, until the devs finally made their own one

  964. LNJ

    xmpp:kaidan@muc.kaidan.im?join

  965. LNJ

    ... wait need to configure my dns

  966. LNJ

    Haven't used muc before on that server

  967. waqas has joined

  968. goffi has left

  969. Dave Cridland has left

  970. Anu has left

  971. daniel has left

  972. jubalh has left

  973. Dave Cridland has left

  974. SamWhited has left

  975. Syndace has left

  976. ralphm has left

  977. Dave Cridland has left

  978. mrdoctorwho has left

  979. mrdoctorwho has left

  980. Valerian has left

  981. Valerian has joined

  982. rainslide has left

  983. ralphm has joined

  984. rainslide has joined

  985. SamWhited has left

  986. marmistrz has left

  987. Guus has left

  988. Guus has left

  989. daniel has left

  990. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  991. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  992. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  993. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  994. Guus has left

  995. tux has joined

  996. rainslide has left

  997. winfried has left

  998. jubalh has joined

  999. Martin has left

  1000. rainslide has joined

  1001. SamWhited has left

  1002. Syndace has joined

  1003. lumi has left

  1004. daniel has left

  1005. j.r has joined

  1006. Martin has joined

  1007. j.r has joined

  1008. rainslide has left

  1009. remko has joined

  1010. SamWhited has left

  1011. ralphm has joined

  1012. daniel has left

  1013. Dave Cridland has left

  1014. j.r has left

  1015. j.r has joined

  1016. daniel has left

  1017. jubalh has joined

  1018. SamWhited has left

  1019. efrit has left

  1020. efrit has joined

  1021. remko has left

  1022. sezuan has left

  1023. Dave Cridland has left

  1024. daniel has left

  1025. jubalh has left

  1026. mimi89999 has joined

  1027. SamWhited has left

  1028. marc has left

  1029. moparisthebest

    yay it's back https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-02

  1030. jubalh has joined

  1031. Dave Cridland has left

  1032. daniel has left

  1033. moparisthebest

    they also thankfully mention hiding ALPN using the same mechanisms

  1034. goffi has left

  1035. daniel has left

  1036. daniel has joined

  1037. ralphm has joined

  1038. Guus has left

  1039. daniel has left

  1040. lumi has joined

  1041. Steve Kille has left

  1042. Steve Kille has left

  1043. daniel has left

  1044. Steve Kille has joined

  1045. j.r has joined

  1046. tux has joined

  1047. ralphm has joined

  1048. ralphm has joined

  1049. Guus has left

  1050. marmistrz has left

  1051. SamWhited has left

  1052. jubalh has joined

  1053. alexis has left

  1054. andy has joined

  1055. Guus has left

  1056. matlag has joined

  1057. SamWhited has left

  1058. ludo has left

  1059. daniel has left

  1060. alexis has joined

  1061. lovetox has joined

  1062. jere has joined

  1063. jere has joined

  1064. ludo has joined

  1065. marmistrz has left

  1066. Martin has left

  1067. Guus has left

  1068. alexis has left

  1069. alexis has joined

  1070. valo has joined

  1071. Zash has left

  1072. Zash has left

  1073. Zash has joined

  1074. daniel has left

  1075. ludo has left

  1076. ludo has joined

  1077. waqas has left

  1078. jubalh has left

  1079. jjrh has left

  1080. alexis has left

  1081. alexis has joined

  1082. Guus has left

  1083. jjrh has left

  1084. daniel has left

  1085. alexis has left

  1086. alexis has joined

  1087. Chobbes has joined

  1088. Guus has left

  1089. winfried has left

  1090. winfried has joined

  1091. waqas has joined

  1092. Dave Cridland has left

  1093. jjrh has left

  1094. UsL has joined

  1095. Dave Cridland has left

  1096. UsL has joined

  1097. alexis has left

  1098. Tobias has joined

  1099. alexis has joined

  1100. SamWhited has left

  1101. jubalh has joined

  1102. ludo has left

  1103. ludo has joined

  1104. alexis has left

  1105. alexis has joined

  1106. Dave Cridland has left

  1107. Dave Cridland has left

  1108. Dave Cridland has left

  1109. Dave Cridland has left

  1110. Dave Cridland has left

  1111. Valerian has left

  1112. daniel has left

  1113. tux has joined

  1114. tux has joined

  1115. alexis has left

  1116. alexis has joined

  1117. SamWhited has left

  1118. andy has left

  1119. andy has joined

  1120. Dave Cridland has left

  1121. Dave Cridland has left

  1122. Dave Cridland has left

  1123. Dave Cridland has left

  1124. alexis has left

  1125. alexis has joined

  1126. Nekit has joined

  1127. Dave Cridland has left

  1128. SaltyBones has left

  1129. ralphm has joined

  1130. SamWhited has left

  1131. daniel has left

  1132. Dave Cridland has left

  1133. j.r has joined

  1134. Dave Cridland has left

  1135. SaltyBones has joined

  1136. winfried has left

  1137. alexis has left

  1138. daniel has left

  1139. alexis has joined

  1140. remko has joined

  1141. andy has left

  1142. ludo has left

  1143. rion has left

  1144. ta has joined

  1145. rion has joined

  1146. Alex has joined

  1147. jubalh has joined

  1148. andy has joined

  1149. SamWhited has left

  1150. ralphm has joined

  1151. Guus has left

  1152. daniel has left

  1153. andy has left

  1154. alexis has left

  1155. alexis has joined

  1156. Maranda has joined

  1157. marc has left

  1158. remko has left

  1159. Alex has left

  1160. alexis has left

  1161. alexis has joined

  1162. Lance has joined

  1163. ralphm has joined

  1164. winfried has left

  1165. SamWhited has left

  1166. andy has joined

  1167. daniel has left

  1168. Guus has left

  1169. ludo has left

  1170. blabla has left

  1171. daniel has left

  1172. ludo has left

  1173. Dave Cridland has left

  1174. marmistrz has left

  1175. jubalh has joined

  1176. SamWhited has left

  1177. ibikk has joined

  1178. SamWhited has left

  1179. valo has left

  1180. marmistrz has left

  1181. ThibG has left

  1182. Dave Cridland has left

  1183. ThibG has joined

  1184. daniel has left

  1185. Maranda has left

  1186. Dave Cridland has left

  1187. marc has left

  1188. remko has joined

  1189. Valerian has joined

  1190. remko has left

  1191. andy has left

  1192. ralphm has joined

  1193. Dave Cridland has left

  1194. daniel has left

  1195. jere has left

  1196. Lance has left

  1197. Guus has left

  1198. jere has joined

  1199. andy has joined

  1200. waqas has left

  1201. andy has left

  1202. andy has joined

  1203. lumi has left

  1204. daniel has left

  1205. marmistrz has left

  1206. ibikk has joined

  1207. lumi has joined

  1208. SamWhited has left

  1209. lskdjf has joined

  1210. SamWhited has joined

  1211. la|r|ma has left

  1212. Valerian has left

  1213. Valerian has joined

  1214. SamWhited has left

  1215. goffi has left

  1216. Maranda has joined

  1217. j.r has joined

  1218. SamWhited has joined

  1219. ludo has left

  1220. Valerian has left

  1221. Valerian has joined

  1222. jere has left

  1223. jere has joined

  1224. Valerian has left

  1225. j.r has joined

  1226. daniel has left

  1227. andy has left

  1228. andy has joined

  1229. SamWhited has left

  1230. daniel has left

  1231. Ge0rG has left

  1232. lskdjf has joined

  1233. waqas has joined

  1234. daniel has left

  1235. daniel has joined

  1236. SamWhited has left

  1237. ralphm has left

  1238. Dave Cridland has left

  1239. Dave Cridland has left

  1240. Dave Cridland has left

  1241. Dave Cridland has left

  1242. andy has left

  1243. andy has joined

  1244. Dave Cridland has left

  1245. SamWhited has left

  1246. Dave Cridland has left

  1247. tux has left

  1248. ludo has left

  1249. daniel has left

  1250. Dave Cridland has left

  1251. valo has joined

  1252. Dave Cridland has left

  1253. Dave Cridland has left

  1254. Dave Cridland has left

  1255. Dave Cridland has left

  1256. Dave Cridland has left

  1257. marmistrz has left

  1258. daniel has left

  1259. Dave Cridland has left

  1260. Holger has left

  1261. Dave Cridland has left

  1262. Dave Cridland has left

  1263. boothj5 has joined

  1264. Dave Cridland has left

  1265. Alex has joined

  1266. Lance has joined

  1267. boothj5 has left

  1268. Dave Cridland has left

  1269. Lance has left

  1270. Ge0rG has left

  1271. andy has left

  1272. Dave Cridland has left

  1273. ludo has left

  1274. andy has joined

  1275. Dave Cridland has left

  1276. daniel has left

  1277. SamWhited has left

  1278. Dave Cridland has left

  1279. Dave Cridland has left

  1280. Ge0rG has left

  1281. jubalh has left

  1282. Holger has left

  1283. marmistrz has joined

  1284. SamWhited has left

  1285. andy has left

  1286. Dave Cridland has left

  1287. daniel has left

  1288. Dave Cridland has left

  1289. Dave Cridland has left

  1290. Dave Cridland has left

  1291. Nekit has left

  1292. Dave Cridland has left

  1293. Dave Cridland has left

  1294. lskdjf has joined

  1295. Dave Cridland has left

  1296. ralphm has joined

  1297. Dave Cridland has left

  1298. SamWhited has left

  1299. Dave Cridland has left

  1300. Dave Cridland has left

  1301. lskdjf has joined

  1302. Dave Cridland has left

  1303. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1304. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1305. lskdjf has joined

  1306. Dave Cridland has left

  1307. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1308. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1309. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1310. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1311. Guus has left

  1312. daniel has left

  1313. Dave Cridland has left

  1314. SamWhited has left

  1315. Dave Cridland has left

  1316. edhelas has left

  1317. edhelas has left

  1318. jere has joined

  1319. marc has joined

  1320. rion has left

  1321. jere has joined

  1322. daniel has left

  1323. moparisthebest has joined

  1324. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1325. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1326. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1327. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1328. Dave Cridland has left

  1329. valo has joined

  1330. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1331. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1332. lskdjf has joined

  1333. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1334. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1335. Dave Cridland has left

  1336. lskdjf has left

  1337. lskdjf has joined

  1338. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1339. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1340. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1341. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1342. waqas has left

  1343. goffi has left

  1344. Dave Cridland has left

  1345. ludo has left

  1346. SamWhited has left

  1347. daniel has left

  1348. jere has joined

  1349. Dave Cridland has left

  1350. valo has joined

  1351. moparisthebest has joined

  1352. SamWhited has left

  1353. daniel has left

  1354. ludo has left

  1355. moparisthebest has joined

  1356. LNJ has left

  1357. SamWhited has left

  1358. ibikk has left

  1359. daniel has left

  1360. j.r has joined

  1361. j.r has joined

  1362. ThibG has left

  1363. ThibG has joined

  1364. waqas has joined

  1365. Nekit has joined

  1366. sezuan has left

  1367. vanitasvitae has left

  1368. andy has joined

  1369. Guus has left

  1370. matlag has joined

  1371. SamWhited has left

  1372. Tobias has joined

  1373. Tobias has joined

  1374. daniel has left

  1375. daniel has joined

  1376. andy has left

  1377. Ge0rG

    Looks like our editors are on Easter holidays.

  1378. daniel has left

  1379. Maranda has joined

  1380. marc has left

  1381. Alex has left

  1382. Syndace has joined

  1383. Syndace has joined

  1384. SamWhited has left

  1385. jere has joined

  1386. Guus has left

  1387. ralphm has joined

  1388. Dave Cridland has left

  1389. LNJ has left

  1390. SamWhited has left

  1391. ThibG has left

  1392. ThibG has joined

  1393. ibikk has joined

  1394. jjrh has left

  1395. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1396. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1397. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1398. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1399. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1400. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1401. Dave Cridland has left

  1402. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1403. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1404. j.r has left

  1405. j.r has joined

  1406. j.r has left

  1407. j.r has joined

  1408. SamWhited has left

  1409. j.r has joined

  1410. j.r has joined

  1411. Guus has left

  1412. lovetox has left

  1413. Dave Cridland has left

  1414. Dave Cridland has left

  1415. ludo has left

  1416. Ge0rG has left

  1417. daniel has left

  1418. ibikk has left

  1419. Guus has left

  1420. efrit has left

  1421. lumi has left

  1422. daniel has left

  1423. Ge0rG has left

  1424. Dave Cridland has left

  1425. Dave Cridland has left

  1426. Dave Cridland has left

  1427. Chobbes has joined