XSF Discussion - 2018-04-06

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  238. Seve/SouL

    Yes, people get scared when hear Jabber, as UsL said, people then to make 'do not like face' saying 'the old old chat thing??' (in case they know it)

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  242. Ge0rG

    I'm still waiting for a viable alternative proposal that will work without a multi million marketing campaign

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  244. Neustradamus

    Ge0rG: first migrate the planet to xmpp.org ^^

  245. UsL

    so I replied in operators@ instead of here.. : S

  246. UsL

    still havent had my morning coffee :O

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  260. edhelas

    I have more and more spam each days

  261. Ge0rG

    UsL: you might associate Jabber with a low-quality implementation, but at least you know what it is about.

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  264. edhelas

    my only solution for now is to blacklist more and more servers

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  272. Guus

    I frown upon people not taking their morning coffee ceremony seriously.

  273. Guus

    (afk, getting coffee)

  274. Ge0rG

    Guus: have a nice weekend

  275. Guus

    Weekend? We've got an entire workday ahead of us 🙂

  276. Ge0rG

    Guus: in that case you don't take your morning coffee ceremony sufficiently serious.

  277. intosi

    Broken records are broken.

  278. Guus

    yes, that was the implied joke.

  279. Neustradamus


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  286. Maranda

    Just one coffee??!!

  287. Maranda looks at his the "quadruple" espresso coffee cup.

  288. Maranda


  289. Ge0rG 's got a 475ml on-the-go coffee cup.

  290. Guus

    My office is also my kitchen, where the espresso machine is. 😊

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  292. intosi

    Deliberately keeping my coffee machine two floors down from my office ;)

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  308. UsL

    yes, that is the case. Still, jabber and the lightbulb feels dated compared to xmpp and the xmpp logo. Is it supposed to be two horns? Or two of those ancient looking baskets that Miss Fortuna held. Cornucopia. Had to look it up.

  309. UsL

    haha, I'll try to coffee before talking hence forth

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  314. Ge0rG

    UsL: nobody knows I think.

  315. Ge0rG

    There was a long logo discussion last year

  316. UsL

    the description fits though: "commonly a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers or nuts."

  317. UsL

    : D

  318. UsL


  319. Ge0rG

    The only thing I can agree on. We are all nuts.

  320. UsL

    that settles it. The logo depicts two cornucopias

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  325. Maranda


  326. Maranda


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  328. Seve/SouL

    I love the XMPP logo

  329. Seve/SouL

    Feels modern

  330. Seve/SouL

    (subjective I know)

  331. Maranda

    Too bad that normal people can't stop going "what" whenever you mention "ECS-AM-PEE-PEE" who knows maybe it's the two final P ™️. Thoughts?

  332. Ge0rG

    Maranda: just ask them for their JID then.

  333. Maranda


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  335. Guus

    I think the logo form is based on the 'X' in XMPP.

  336. Maranda

    UsL was till on the way out of his trip with "cornucopias and stuff" me thinks

  337. Maranda


  338. Ge0rG

    Maranda: so you are processing urine of former military police personnel? That's noble.

  339. Zash

    The pointy bit of speech balloons?

  340. Maranda

    Ge0rG 🤨 that statement didn't 🖥

  341. Maranda


  342. Ge0rG

    Maranda: ex MP pee.

  343. Maranda


  344. Maranda


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  347. Zash

    Members of Parliament?

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  357. Holger

    Zash, flow: Seems I'm missing something regarding "Blocking of subscription request denials"? What's the problem with the server (1) handling my 'unsubscribed' presence as usual but (2) not forwarding it to the requester?

  358. Holger

    flow: > on subsequent incoming requests from the blocked entity have the server send an error (or rejection) presence. This would clearly violate 0191 ("For presence stanzas (including notifications, subscriptions, and probes), the server MUST NOT respond and MUST NOT return an error"), no?

  359. Ge0rG

    Zash: those, too.

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  375. flow

    Holger, I'm not sure if we talk about the same thing anymore. What I have in mind is: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) B blocks A; at 2 A's server could reject the sub request from the blocked entity

  376. flow

    What is the rationale of xep191 becoming a presence blackhole?

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  378. Zash

    Holger: Possibly an implementation detail. Gets complicated for one plugin to let another do some of the processing for an event but not other.

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  380. flow

    Holger, you seem to talk about: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) A blocks B; 3) B rejects A's sub request

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  382. flow

    In which case I'd also say that the server should simply process the rejection (unsubscribed) as usual

  383. jonasw

    winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry

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  386. Zash

    flow: You send me a sub request. I block you, then I deny that request. I get an error because I blocked you, and then I get the request sent to me every time I sign in with no way to do anything about it.

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  388. Zash

    Holger: ^

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  390. Holger

    flow: No I didn't talk about the latter case but about the one Zash repeated now.

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  392. Holger

    I can easily see this being meh to implement. I was just wondering whether I got the scenario wrong. Maybe I didn't after all :-)

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  394. Zash

    Might be a case of "being modular is hard"

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  396. flow

    You get an error if you send a stanza to an entity you have blocked?

  397. Zash

    > If the user attempts to send an outbound stanza to the JID, the user's > server MUST NOT route the stanza to the JID but instead MUST return a > <not-acceptable/> error [...]

  398. flow


  399. Zash

    I suppose you could argue that presence management stanzas are not outbound stanzas.

  400. Holger

    Zash: So process the stanza and send an error :-)

  401. flow

    I wonder what's the rationale behind that

  402. Holger

    Zash: Hah I thought I'm kidding but seems that's ejabberd's behavior.

  403. Holger

    Probably does the trick in practice.

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  405. Zash

    Looks like Prosody would send the not-acceptable error to itself, not to the user, if presence handling was done before blocking.

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  408. Holger

    Talking to yourself can be healthy.

  409. Zash

    We're already breaking another MUST so that you don't get a ton of not-acceptable in response to normal presence broadcasts, in case you've blocked a bunch of subscription=both|from contacts

  410. Ge0rG

    what's wrong with that not-acceptable? It allows the client to show the contact as "bad"

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  416. Holger

    Zash: What MUST are you breaking in that case?

  417. Zash

    That same one I quoted above

  418. Zash

    It doesn't distinguish between presence stanzas sent from the server and those sent from the user.

  419. Zash

    Ge0rG: Hmmm

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  421. Ge0rG

    Can we persist error messages in offline storage/MAM?

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  433. Holger

    Zash: A presence broadcast qualifies as an attempt "to send an outbound stanza to the JID"?

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  437. Zash

    How do you know your denial was processed

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  468. pep.

    GDPR meeting in 5min!

  469. Ge0rG


  470. Ge0rG

    I'm totally unprepared.

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  474. winfried

    Sorry, will be late and have to leave early

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  477. Ge0rG attempts to remember who the other GDPR expert was some days ago

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  479. pep.


  480. pep.

    jonasw, ?

  481. Ge0rG

    pep.: jonasw> winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry

  482. pep.


  483. pep.

    Shall we start anyway? Have a look at what's left

  484. pep.

    winfried, how long do you have

  485. Anu


  486. Anu

    Where is gdpr meeting? Here?

  487. pep.

    Appart from the LQ{1,2}, I think we've covered the C2S case pretty much already?

  488. pep.

    Anu, yes

  489. Ge0rG

    Anu: here and now, though we are missing some people

  490. pep.


  491. Anu

    Also dealing with baby so I might lurk

  492. Ge0rG

    hi Anu! :)

  493. pep.

    I'm taking minutes of whatever this will be :p

  494. Anu

    I’ll try to participate to the best of my ability

  495. Ge0rG

    It looks like we are missing two participants, including our chair.

  496. Ge0rG

    I can try to chair a bit, but I'm rather unprepared, so brace for a very loosely organized session

  497. pep.

    I guess we'll do it short and plan another date

  498. winfried is present

  499. pep.

    winfried, ready?

  500. Ge0rG

    I think we have multiple points that still need to be worked out: Q1.1d List legal grounds for the processing - that didn't feel quite finished to me, especially regarding federation Q1.1e Analyse possible consequences Q1.2: What consequences does the GDPR has for the XMPP server operators Q1.3: What can/should the XSF do with it?

  501. winfried

    have to leave at 14:00 CEST (35 minutes from now)

  502. winfried

    Ge0rG: yes, S2S / federation is still open

  503. Ge0rG

    I've briefly looked at GDPR work in the IETF, but didn't find something like a WG, it's just a topic in different sub-orgs

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  505. Ge0rG

    Anu wanted to add more lawyer questions, which I'd like to hear as well

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  507. winfried

    Anu: yes, please!

  508. Ge0rG

    Maybe we can ask Board for some budget regarding those.

  509. Anu

    1: what level of logging is legal on xmpp servers

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  511. Anu

    2: what info (presence/server logs) counts as pii and has to be purged when right to be forgotten is involved

  512. Ge0rG

    Anu: I think that server logs are pretty well covered under recital 49

  513. winfried

    Anu: +1 @ Ge0rG

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  515. Ge0rG


  516. winfried

    Anu: pii is also quite well defined

  517. Ge0rG

    winfried: is it really?

  518. Ge0rG

    I think there is still no clear consensus whether IP addresses are PII or not ,)

  519. winfried

    Ge0rG: they are

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  521. winfried

    (but IPadresses are a nice edge-case)

  522. pep.

    I was also told they are. But yeah they might not identify just one individual

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  524. Ge0rG

    Anu: the questions are also very technical. You'd have to explain to the lawyer how XMPP works, first.

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  530. winfried

    For the process right now: I propose we take a look at the tasks at hand check if we can do some of them before the next meeting and plan a next meeting...

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  532. pep.


  533. winfried


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  535. winfried

    I added 'TBD' on some places Q1.1d still needs some more details and from Q1.1e everything is work in progress.

  536. Ge0rG

    winfried: yeah. We should talk about federation now

  537. pep.

    I feel Q1.1e is going to be even more speculation than the rest

  538. winfried

    pep.: yes

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  540. Ge0rG

    pep.: I think there are some non-speculative parts in e. Like how to do a data retention policy, and how to implement the right to be forgotten

  541. winfried

    Ge0rG: Yes, starting with Q1.1b on S2S

  542. pep.

    Ge0rG, ok I wouldn't have put right to be forgotten in 1.1e

  543. winfried

    Next TBD Q1.1c on S2S

  544. Ge0rG

    so let's do S2S 1.1b and c

  545. pep.


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  547. winfried

    pep.: 1.1e is *very* speculative

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  549. Ge0rG

    for 1.1b S2S: - s2s meta-data (IP addresses, hostnames, sessions, probably server logs) - I don't think the GDPR applies - user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing) - user content (messages, pubsub, ...)

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  551. pep.

    s2s meta-data, I think GDPR is out as well, it's not somebody's private info

  552. winfried


  553. Ge0rG

    - MUC history, MUC MAM

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  555. pep.


  556. Ge0rG

    anything else for 1.1b?

  557. winfried

    can't think of anything right now

  558. pep.

    I think that covers pretty much everything

  559. Ge0rG

    remote components

  560. pep.

    include pubsub in there then

  561. Ge0rG

    there is component access to roster, I don't know which kind of data is a transport allowed to access there

  562. Anu

    3: when an xmpp opeator is fined is it based on personal income if they are non profit?

  563. winfried

    remote_vibrator.tilanus.com? ;-)

  564. Ge0rG

    Anu: 3 -> no

  565. pep.

    Ge0rG, I would consider that as standard s2s

  566. Ge0rG

    Anu: the fine is max(0.04*turnover, 200k€) - so even if you are broke, you can be fined 200k€

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  568. winfried

    Who can add this to the wiki? One TBD down then!

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  570. pep.

    winfried, I'm taking the minutes

  571. Ge0rG

    pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0321.html#request_roster

  572. winfried

    pep.: thanks!

  573. pep.

    Ge0rG, hmm

  574. Ge0rG

    Remote Roster Management requires explicit user consent, and provides information about it, so I suppose this is well covered by the existing legal framework

  575. Ge0rG

    However, I'd like to have Remote Roster Management explicitly listed as a data type

  576. winfried

    Ge0rG: +1

  577. winfried

    good catch

  578. Guus has left

  579. pep.


  580. Ge0rG

    next: Q1.1c

  581. winfried

    - transfer to an other controller

  582. daniel has left

  583. SaltyBones has left

  584. winfried

    - archiving (MAM, MAM on MUC)

  585. Ge0rG

    - s2s meta-data - typically just inside of server logs, so R49 probably applies - user meta-data: all transfer requires (implicit) user consent - by joining a MUC or sending a message to somebody or accepting a subscription

  586. pep.

    I had a legalese 101 question, what is meant by "third-party country" in chapter 5? Does that mean it only applies when transfering data to *other* countries?

  587. Ge0rG

    pep.: non-EU

  588. winfried

    pep.: transfer to non-EU is also a possible processing here....

  589. pep.

    So they always use this third-party country term from what I gathered, where is transfer within EU entites defined then

  590. winfried

    pep.: No, 5 is about transfer out the EU

  591. pep.

    I see

  592. Ge0rG

    winfried: does it matter if we do s2s inside or outside the EU?

  593. winfried

    Ge0rG: Yes

  594. Ge0rG

    then we need to separate that

  595. winfried

    outside chapter 5 applies, inside not

  596. pep.

    That's going to be fun

  597. winfried

    *big time*

  598. pep.

    Zash, be prepared to see a mod_gdpr appear at some point :p

  599. winfried

    pep.: before may the 25th :-P

  600. pep.


  601. winfried

    I have to leave soon :-(

  602. winfried

    new appointment?

  603. pep.

    Ok, we should do date of next

  604. pep.

    I'm free anytime. monday same time?

  605. winfried


  606. winfried

    though monday better a bit earlier

  607. pep.

    What time?

  608. Valerian has joined

  609. winfried

    starting between 9:00 and 12:00 CEST works the best for me

  610. daniel has left

  611. Ge0rG

    I can starting 10:30CEST

  612. winfried

    jonasw: any possibility?

  613. pep.

    err that's 9:30am here ><

  614. pep.

    I'll have to get up

  615. pep.

    But ok

  616. pep.

    winfried, jonasw is not here. will try to ping him during the weekend

  617. winfried

    pep.: thanks

  618. pep.

    So monday 10:30CEST it is then?

  619. winfried


  620. pep.

    cool, *bang*

  621. winfried


  622. winfried has left

  623. pep.

    Ge0rG, I would rename your "user meta-data" above in Q1.1c to "user data", it's talking about messages etc.

  624. ta has left

  625. winfried has left

  626. Ge0rG

    pep.: no, it's message routing metadata

  627. pep.

    Ok so we still have to cover user content then, that works

  628. pep.

    Though winfried mentioned MAM etc.

  629. Ge0rG

    MAM contains both

  630. alexis has joined

  631. pep.

    https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/Zc1c+aBtFP-49TYSX0T+7g/VcSdjDmU9rC0crMKwQyiehe9/ what I have for now. I'll have another read after lunch

  632. Dave Cridland has left

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  634. Anu

    Meeting still happening?

  635. Ge0rG

    Anu: nope

  636. alexis has joined

  637. Anu

    Aw ok

  638. Anu

    Looks like it was productive

  639. Anu

    Mod gdpr will probably be needed

  640. Anu

    Honestly gdpr is the biggest gift to walled garden monolithic messaging systems. Unless you control the whole stack it’s hard to be compliant

  641. alexis has left

  642. alexis has joined

  643. Anu

    I’m wondering if xmpp will even be legal. It was made from another time and merrily leaks ip addresses to other servers

  644. Anu

    E.g push servers get device ips

  645. Ge0rG

    Anu: push servers like Google and Apple? They have your IP anyway

  646. Ge0rG

    Anu: I don't see how XMPP is different from email

  647. Anu

    No push like push.monal.im that use Apple to push to your device

  648. alexis has left

  649. Anu

    I know chatsecure and conversations have similar push servers

  650. Guus has left

  651. Holger

    Anu: Registration with the push service for Conversations works without revealing the IP address, though.

  652. Ge0rG

    Anu: push.monal.im talks to your XMPP server and to Apple APNS, not to the client

  653. pep.

    Yeah it's quite similar to email and I don't think they'd want to get rid of this. Also I didn't see anything federation specific in Google's policies

  654. Anu

    The out of band registration will log the device ip on the push server

  655. Holger

    (It's done via XMPP, i.e. routed over your server.)

  656. Holger

    Anu: In your case, yes.

  657. Ge0rG

    Anu: that's not part of the XEP, is it?

  658. Holger

    Right, the XEP doesn't specify how to register.

  659. Anu

    Or I’m mixing protocols :( hold on

  660. Anu

    Let me see

  661. Ge0rG

    so should I switch my father-in-law from ChatSecure to Monal now?

  662. Holger

    Anu: AFAIK clients register against push.monal.im via HTTP and thereby reveal their IP address (short of using some proxy), yes. I'm just saying it doesn't have to work this way, and doesn't for Conversations (but also for ChatSecure IIRC).

  663. Anu

    Not yet . I haven’t published the libsignal stuff

  664. Ge0rG

    Anu: no need for E2EE, just chat and http-upload

  665. Ge0rG

    not even MUCs

  666. daniel has left

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  668. Anu

    Bah you know I I’m tired when I don’t remember how my own push service works :(

  669. Anu

    Oh right it’s s2s in with token info

  670. Anu

    Tokens should be suitably pseudoanonymized

  671. Holger

    Anu: The actual registration step is via HTTP, AFAIK :-)

  672. Anu


  673. Anu

    The rest call

  674. remko has joined

  675. Holger


  676. Holger


  677. Anu

    Phew I thought I was thinking of another protocol

  678. Valerian has left

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  680. Holger


  681. Valerian has joined

  682. jonasw

    monday 10:30 CEST wfm if we don’t draw it out too long, Ge0rG, winfried

  683. jonasw

    I’d like to leave at 11:30 CEST

  684. Anu

    No joke I have like four of them swirling in my head and they are all usually very similar

  685. Ge0rG

    Holger: is there a TL;DR about setting up push on an xmpp server the right way?

  686. Valerian has left

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  691. Holger

    Ge0rG: For ejabberd you enable mod_push and mod_push_keepalive, but that's probably not what you meant?

  692. pep.

    jonasw: cool

  693. valo has joined

  694. Ge0rG

    Holger: yeah, in retrospect it was pretty dumb to ask you things about my server.

  695. daniel

    I think the process on prosody isn't much harder

  696. Anu

    Yeah it’s pretty straightforward on prosody

  697. Anu

    That’s what I use

  698. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure if it's ChatSecure then that's borked, or if my father-in-law can't properly use his phone.

  699. jere has joined

  700. Holger

    mod_cloud_notify now supports the mod_push_keepalive magic AFAIK, at least partly.

  701. daniel

    I think for chatsecure you might want to look at the patched mod_cloud_notifiy

  702. Holger

    Hm or maybe not.

  703. daniel

    Don't ask me why that isn't mainline though

  704. Ge0rG

    daniel: patched where?

  705. Holger

    It is now.

  706. Holger

    Well a variant of it.

  707. Ge0rG

    since when?

  708. Holger

    (The same variant I'm going for with ejabberd.)

  709. Ge0rG

    So many questions. All off topic

  710. Anu

    Is the keep alive to keep the connection open?

  711. daniel

    Holger: a variant that is compat with Chatsecure?

  712. Holger

    daniel: Yes.

  713. daniel


  714. Anu


  715. daniel

    Anu: it's to check if the connection is still alive and if not send a push as a wakeup signal

  716. Holger

    Anu: It's to keep the stream management session open, yes. Mostly to make push notifications work for MUC messages.

  717. Anu

    Isn’t the whole point that we use the push to signal time to wake up

  718. Anu


  719. Anu

    Oh man so do you guys see me going offline constantly?

  720. Holger

    Anu: The client disconnects but the session remains alive.

  721. Anu

    Ah cool that’s exactly what I need!

  722. Anu

    I’ve only been using Monal with muc and push

  723. Holger

    Anu: For this to work, you must close the TCP session without terminating the XMPP stream.

  724. Anu


  725. Guus has left

  726. Anu

    And resume it ok wake up

  727. Ge0rG

    The next thing we need to design: MUC notification filtering, where the mobile client doesn't need to be joined all the time but can connect and MAM-sync when the user is highlighted

  728. Anu

    Thats what I do now but user showing up as offline when I close the tcp connection has been driving me nuts

  729. Holger

    Anu: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html and https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html

  730. Holger

    Anu: I'm not sure whether mod_cloud_notify can be configured to do that.

  731. Ge0rG

    prosody will keep the session visible as online as long as smacks doesn't kill the zombie

  732. Anu

    I’m thinking about a completely non invasive fix for this on the client side. Ditch offline, it’s not really a thing anymore. It doesn’t solve the muc issue though

  733. Holger

    Ge0rG: But there's no hack to increase the timeout for the push case?

  734. Ge0rG

    Anu: "offline" is a limited use case, but "dnd" is rather important, I'd say

  735. Holger

    Ge0rG: Wouldn't you just silence your phone rather than hoping your contacts will respect that status?

  736. remko has left

  737. jonasw

    Holger, but letting contacts know that they won’t have success with sending you a message is probably nice?

  738. jonasw

    also maybe a thing which lets a sender override that dnd silence if and only if they are in some whitelist

  739. Holger

    I think "last activity" is a better indicator for success chances.

  740. Ge0rG

    Holger: my jabber goes dnd when I silence my phone.

  741. jonasw

    e.g. "people from the family group may circumvent phone dnd (raise a priority notification) if asked for"

  742. Holger

    jonasw: I mean in theory I see your point but in practice presence status is just always wrong.

  743. jonasw

    Holger, is it?

  744. Ge0rG

    Holger: I think "last activity" is a nice addon to proper dnd signaling

  745. jonasw

    Ge0rG, if I had that setting, I would always be dnd :)

  746. jonasw

    it would be great if the presence was reflected by the actual DND status of the phone.

  747. daniel has left

  748. Holger

    Ge0rG: My phone does the same, but I'm often available despite my phone being quiet. It's just always wrong.

  749. alexis has joined

  750. jonasw

    (not sure if this is lineageos specific, but it has a neat DND mode where you can say either priority only, alarms only or total silence for N hours)

  751. jonasw

    (or by time)

  752. Ge0rG

    jonasw: that lineageos mode is fucking with my brains.

  753. jonasw


  754. Ge0rG

    there used to be (silent+alarms|vibration|normal) and then they split up the first one into two different ones

  755. Ge0rG

    and one of them ended up also silencing the alarm.

  756. Ge0rG

    Really, who on earth wants their alarm silenced?

  757. pep.

    I say it's a valid use case

  758. jonasw

    there is probably a use-case for that.

  759. jonasw

    think small children wihch might be woken up or something, meetings of indefinite duration, …

  760. Ge0rG

    ...coming late to work.

  761. jubalh has joined

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  768. jonasw

    that only happened when it -- I think -- didn’t reset the alarm volume after I accidentally triggered total silence

  769. alexis has left

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  773. Anu

    My phone is permanent silenced haha

  774. Dave Cridland has left

  775. Anu

    I don’t even know what my alert tones are

  776. Anu

    But that might be a very narrow use case.

  777. Dave Cridland has left

  778. Martin has joined

  779. Anu

    I honestly think one problem for xmpp is that there are mobile and desktop clients. Mobile will almost never be offline or away

  780. Anu

    Desktop might be.

  781. Ge0rG

    Anu: there are people shutting down wifi and mobile data over night

  782. Anu

    Really? That’s a thing?

  783. Ge0rG

    Anu: and there are people going outside of network coverage for hours

  784. andy has left

  785. jonasw

    Anu, it is a thing, I’m one of them

  786. Ge0rG

    my worst case is to take long phones when on 2G

  787. jonasw

    my phones battery doesn’t like if conversations is in 20 MUCs overnight for no reason.

  788. Ge0rG

    jonasw: but it is there for a reason!

  789. Anu


  790. Ge0rG

    you could miss an xmpp rant!

  791. Holger

    Anu: I'm not sure the presence status is really that useful on the desktop either.

  792. Anu

    I’ve been thinking a lot about my ui choices and how they are rooted in 90s tech

  793. Anu

    I still have status under the username in the contact list

  794. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I can read up on XMPP rants in poezio :>

  795. Anu

    No one pays status anymore

  796. Anu


  797. Anu

    It was a proto Twitter

  798. Ge0rG

    Anu: Kev suggested to rework status from a per-client thing to a per-account thing. It would make more sense then

  799. Holger

    Ge0rG: Would the result be much different from how clients show presence today?

  800. Seve/SouL

    I have my alarm silenced by the way

  801. Ge0rG

    Holger: probably not

  802. Seve/SouL

    I wake up just with the phone's vibration (although I usually wake up some minutes before it starts)

  803. Zash

    pep.: Make it so

  804. pep.

    Not exactly sure what would go in there though

  805. Ge0rG

    Anu: is there a Monal iOS beta program?

  806. pep.

    `forbid_non_compliant_s2s = true` :o

  807. ta has joined

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  809. Ge0rG

    Anu: if I "delete this account" from Monal, will it delete the account on the server or just the client setup for it?

  810. SamWhited has left

  811. SamWhited has joined

  812. Ge0rG

    hm. the latest version is a year old and doesn't show contact names, but shows multiple JIDs per contact.

  813. goffi has left

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  830. Maranda

    EU is becoming a mass of demented nonsense, well it was already but now it's even more.

  831. alexis has joined

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  834. la|r|ma has joined

  835. la|r|ma has joined

  836. Maranda waits for the "comprehensible TODO" summary about GDPR.

  837. Maranda

    Without the vomiting lagalese included. 😠

  838. pep.

    You'll have to deal with that vomiting legalese anyway

  839. SamWhited has left

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  853. Maranda

    Not all of that pepe, I'm sure that 80% is as usual incomprehensible blah blah that ends in a possible "compression ratio" of 3/4

  854. daniel has left

  855. LNJ

    I started implementing SIMS (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html) in my XMPP client. The XEP tells me that data sent using Bits of Binary (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html) is stored on the server, but I can't find any definition of a protocol to send such data to the server. Also e.g. prosody says that the Bits of Binary XEP is server independant and thus works even if the server doesn't support it. I also can't find an implementation for ejabberd. Can somebody explain that? :D

  856. Ge0rG

    hey LNJ, you are working on Kaidan, right?

  857. Anu

    Ge0rg: will not delete from server.

  858. Anu

    There is a beta I can invite you to

  859. LNJ

    Ge0rg: Yep, that's right

  860. daniel

    LNJ: you basically just put base64 stuff in the same stanza

  861. Ge0rG

    Anu: yes please

  862. daniel

    On the root level of the stanza

  863. LNJ

    So of the root level of the SIMS Stanza?

  864. daniel

    No on the root level of the message stanza

  865. LNJ

    Ah ok

  866. daniel

    And then the Sims reference references that

  867. LNJ

    But isn't the BoB XEP saying to not include the data directly, if it's larger than ~1 KiB?

  868. daniel


  869. daniel


  870. efrit has left

  871. LNJ

    Ok, so I'll just ignore that fact ...

  872. LNJ


  873. daniel

    Ignore that. But keep them reasonable small I guess

  874. Ge0rG

    daniel: is SIMS the new OOB?

  875. daniel

    The entire stanza including mam overhead should be less than 10k bytes

  876. alexis has left

  877. daniel

    I was planning on generating thumbs with 2kb or 3

  878. andy has left

  879. alexis has joined

  880. LNJ

    Ok then it should into 10 kB

  881. Valerian has joined

  882. LNJ

    * should fit

  883. daniel

    Just to be clear you could request bob from the other party in an iq request as well

  884. daniel

    That defeats the stateless part though

  885. daniel

    But bob would allow you to do that

  886. daniel

    Ge0rG: some people want it to be the new oob

  887. daniel

    I'm not entirely convinced

  888. daniel

    Partially because of the weirdness I've just talked about

  889. Ge0rG

    References has weirdness, SIMS does, OOB does too (in the IQ section)

  890. LNJ

    But that's not very nice if the other use has to be online. But I'll implement that as well, just for the case. :D

  891. Ge0rG

    Madness everywhere

  892. Zash

    People are weird

  893. Valerian has left

  894. Valerian has joined

  895. daniel

    I'm relatively convinced that the way I just described it is the way it is supposed to work (sticking it in the root of the message). However that is entirely unclear after reading the xep

  896. efrit has joined

  897. Ge0rG

    daniel: will you replace OOB with SIMS? References?

  898. daniel

    Replace. Probably not. Maybe I do both. I'm mostly in it for the thumbs

  899. SamWhited has left

  900. daniel

    While other people are in it for the mime tag

  901. daniel

    *most other people

  902. daniel

    But ux wise this opens a can of worms on the Conversations side

  903. Chobbes has joined

  904. daniel

    That's why i have been pushing this off

  905. jonasw

    hm, the last argument of yours on this I heard was "how does it work with e2ee"?

  906. Dave Cridland has left

  907. Ge0rG

    daniel: btw, how does Conversations handle non-picture uploads like PDF, or pictures that are attached instead of recompressed?

  908. Dave Cridland has left

  909. daniel

    it doesn't. but i don’t care. i'm just doing thumbs different in omemo

  910. jonasw

    so, virtually everywhere?

  911. daniel


  912. alexis has left

  913. daniel

    public mucs

  914. alexis has joined

  915. jonasw

    so you’d auto-download/show content in public MUCs?

  916. daniel

    that's where thumbs will be used most of the time anyway

  917. daniel

    because they are not auto downloaded

  918. daniel

    unlike the rest of conversations

  919. jonasw

    ah I wa sthinking you were replacing auto-download with auto-show-thumbs-and-tap-for-full-version

  920. daniel

    mhhh maybe not. i still think i'll be autodownloading files by default

  921. daniel has left

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  923. daniel

    users can always turn that of. and having thumbs might make that more attractive

  924. daniel

    haven't thought about that before you brought that up

  925. jonasw

    maybe auto-fetch thumbs and download full versions when and only while the conversation is in view?

  926. daniel

    yeah maybe. first things first though. implement thumbs and aftewards we can maybe think about changing the auto download defaults

  927. ludo has left

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  929. daniel

    Ge0rG, things that exceed the auto download size currently have a normal button that says 'donwload pdf document'

  930. daniel

    or download mime/type if it's not well known

  931. Maranda wonders how'll that work with gdpr.

  932. Maranda

    (auto fetching thumbs)

  933. daniel

    and files for which i do not have a thumbnail after download will just display an open $foo button

  934. Ge0rG

    you leak your IP if you are browsing images in any random web forum, so meh.

  935. Ge0rG

    daniel: if you plan to auto-download, there is no need to pursue thumbs. Except for huge files

  936. Maranda

    Ge0rG, *made in legalese*

  937. daniel

    yes like i said the way it currently works they will mostly be shown in mucs

  938. daniel

    where i don't have auto download

  939. lumi has joined

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  941. daniel

    but they open the door to changing the auto download behaviour as jonas and i were just discussing

  942. daniel

    plus fancy

  943. alexis has joined

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  956. Ge0rG

    LNJ: do you happen to have a Kaidan MUC?

  957. LNJ

    Well ... yes, but after file uploads

  958. LNJ

    AH .. you mean a channel

  959. Ge0rG

    LNJ: yes. A place where I can bother you without going through github

  960. LNJ

    Yes there was one at kaidan@conference.siacs.eu .. but I'd prefer a new on the new kaidan.im server

  961. LNJ

    Wait, I'll create one ..

  962. Seve/SouL

    Thanks, LNJ.

  963. Ge0rG was hosting the inofficial dino MUC for a while, until the devs finally made their own one

  964. LNJ


  965. LNJ

    ... wait need to configure my dns

  966. LNJ

    Haven't used muc before on that server

  967. waqas has joined

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  1029. moparisthebest

    yay it's back https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-02

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  1033. moparisthebest

    they also thankfully mention hiding ALPN using the same mechanisms

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  1377. Ge0rG

    Looks like our editors are on Easter holidays.

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