XSF Discussion - 2018-04-06

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  238. Seve/SouL Yes, people get scared when hear Jabber, as UsL said, people then to make 'do not like face' saying 'the old old chat thing??' (in case they know it)
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  242. Ge0rG I'm still waiting for a viable alternative proposal that will work without a multi million marketing campaign
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  244. Neustradamus Ge0rG: first migrate the planet to xmpp.org ^^
  245. UsL so I replied in operators@ instead of here.. : S
  246. UsL still havent had my morning coffee :O
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  260. edhelas I have more and more spam each days
  261. Ge0rG UsL: you might associate Jabber with a low-quality implementation, but at least you know what it is about.
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  264. edhelas my only solution for now is to blacklist more and more servers
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  272. Guus I frown upon people not taking their morning coffee ceremony seriously.
  273. Guus (afk, getting coffee)
  274. Ge0rG Guus: have a nice weekend
  275. Guus Weekend? We've got an entire workday ahead of us 🙂
  276. Ge0rG Guus: in that case you don't take your morning coffee ceremony sufficiently serious.
  277. intosi Broken records are broken.
  278. Guus yes, that was the implied joke.
  279. Neustradamus https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/header_slider/public/display_list/friday.jpg
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  286. Maranda Just one coffee??!!
  287. Maranda looks at his the "quadruple" espresso coffee cup.
  288. Maranda s/the//
  289. Ge0rG 's got a 475ml on-the-go coffee cup.
  290. Guus My office is also my kitchen, where the espresso machine is. 😊
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  292. intosi Deliberately keeping my coffee machine two floors down from my office ;)
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  308. UsL yes, that is the case. Still, jabber and the lightbulb feels dated compared to xmpp and the xmpp logo. Is it supposed to be two horns? Or two of those ancient looking baskets that Miss Fortuna held. Cornucopia. Had to look it up.
  309. UsL haha, I'll try to coffee before talking hence forth
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  314. Ge0rG UsL: nobody knows I think.
  315. Ge0rG There was a long logo discussion last year
  316. UsL the description fits though: "commonly a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers or nuts."
  317. UsL : D
  318. UsL nuts!
  319. Ge0rG The only thing I can agree on. We are all nuts.
  320. UsL that settles it. The logo depicts two cornucopias
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  325. Maranda 🤔
  326. Maranda 🤯
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  328. Seve/SouL I love the XMPP logo
  329. Seve/SouL Feels modern
  330. Seve/SouL (subjective I know)
  331. Maranda Too bad that normal people can't stop going "what" whenever you mention "ECS-AM-PEE-PEE" who knows maybe it's the two final P ™️. Thoughts?
  332. Ge0rG Maranda: just ask them for their JID then.
  333. Maranda 😎
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  335. Guus I think the logo form is based on the 'X' in XMPP.
  336. Maranda UsL was till on the way out of his trip with "cornucopias and stuff" me thinks
  337. Maranda s/till/still/
  338. Ge0rG Maranda: so you are processing urine of former military police personnel? That's noble.
  339. Zash The pointy bit of speech balloons?
  340. Maranda Ge0rG 🤨 that statement didn't 🖥
  341. Maranda E_CONTEXT
  342. Ge0rG Maranda: ex MP pee.
  343. Maranda Ohh
  344. Maranda 😆
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  347. Zash Members of Parliament?
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  357. Holger Zash, flow: Seems I'm missing something regarding "Blocking of subscription request denials"? What's the problem with the server (1) handling my 'unsubscribed' presence as usual but (2) not forwarding it to the requester?
  358. Holger flow: > on subsequent incoming requests from the blocked entity have the server send an error (or rejection) presence. This would clearly violate 0191 ("For presence stanzas (including notifications, subscriptions, and probes), the server MUST NOT respond and MUST NOT return an error"), no?
  359. Ge0rG Zash: those, too.
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  375. flow Holger, I'm not sure if we talk about the same thing anymore. What I have in mind is: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) B blocks A; at 2 A's server could reject the sub request from the blocked entity
  376. flow What is the rationale of xep191 becoming a presence blackhole?
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  378. Zash Holger: Possibly an implementation detail. Gets complicated for one plugin to let another do some of the processing for an event but not other.
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  380. flow Holger, you seem to talk about: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) A blocks B; 3) B rejects A's sub request
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  382. flow In which case I'd also say that the server should simply process the rejection (unsubscribed) as usual
  383. jonasw winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry
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  386. Zash flow: You send me a sub request. I block you, then I deny that request. I get an error because I blocked you, and then I get the request sent to me every time I sign in with no way to do anything about it.
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  388. Zash Holger: ^
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  390. Holger flow: No I didn't talk about the latter case but about the one Zash repeated now.
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  392. Holger I can easily see this being meh to implement. I was just wondering whether I got the scenario wrong. Maybe I didn't after all :-)
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  394. Zash Might be a case of "being modular is hard"
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  396. flow You get an error if you send a stanza to an entity you have blocked?
  397. Zash > If the user attempts to send an outbound stanza to the JID, the user's > server MUST NOT route the stanza to the JID but instead MUST return a > <not-acceptable/> error [...]
  398. flow bummer
  399. Zash I suppose you could argue that presence management stanzas are not outbound stanzas.
  400. Holger Zash: So process the stanza and send an error :-)
  401. flow I wonder what's the rationale behind that
  402. Holger Zash: Hah I thought I'm kidding but seems that's ejabberd's behavior.
  403. Holger Probably does the trick in practice.
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  405. Zash Looks like Prosody would send the not-acceptable error to itself, not to the user, if presence handling was done before blocking.
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  408. Holger Talking to yourself can be healthy.
  409. Zash We're already breaking another MUST so that you don't get a ton of not-acceptable in response to normal presence broadcasts, in case you've blocked a bunch of subscription=both|from contacts
  410. Ge0rG what's wrong with that not-acceptable? It allows the client to show the contact as "bad"
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  416. Holger Zash: What MUST are you breaking in that case?
  417. Zash That same one I quoted above
  418. Zash It doesn't distinguish between presence stanzas sent from the server and those sent from the user.
  419. Zash Ge0rG: Hmmm
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  421. Ge0rG Can we persist error messages in offline storage/MAM?
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  433. Holger Zash: A presence broadcast qualifies as an attempt "to send an outbound stanza to the JID"?
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  437. Zash How do you know your denial was processed
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  468. pep. GDPR meeting in 5min!
  469. Ge0rG Uh-oh!
  470. Ge0rG I'm totally unprepared.
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  474. winfried Sorry, will be late and have to leave early
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  477. Ge0rG attempts to remember who the other GDPR expert was some days ago
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  479. pep. !
  480. pep. jonasw, ?
  481. Ge0rG pep.: jonasw> winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry
  482. pep. okay
  483. pep. Shall we start anyway? Have a look at what's left
  484. pep. winfried, how long do you have
  485. Anu Me?
  486. Anu Where is gdpr meeting? Here?
  487. pep. Appart from the LQ{1,2}, I think we've covered the C2S case pretty much already?
  488. pep. Anu, yes
  489. Ge0rG Anu: here and now, though we are missing some people
  490. pep. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
  491. Anu Also dealing with baby so I might lurk
  492. Ge0rG hi Anu! :)
  493. pep. I'm taking minutes of whatever this will be :p
  494. Anu I’ll try to participate to the best of my ability
  495. Ge0rG It looks like we are missing two participants, including our chair.
  496. Ge0rG I can try to chair a bit, but I'm rather unprepared, so brace for a very loosely organized session
  497. pep. I guess we'll do it short and plan another date
  498. winfried is present
  499. pep. winfried, ready?
  500. Ge0rG I think we have multiple points that still need to be worked out: Q1.1d List legal grounds for the processing - that didn't feel quite finished to me, especially regarding federation Q1.1e Analyse possible consequences Q1.2: What consequences does the GDPR has for the XMPP server operators Q1.3: What can/should the XSF do with it?
  501. winfried have to leave at 14:00 CEST (35 minutes from now)
  502. winfried Ge0rG: yes, S2S / federation is still open
  503. Ge0rG I've briefly looked at GDPR work in the IETF, but didn't find something like a WG, it's just a topic in different sub-orgs
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  505. Ge0rG Anu wanted to add more lawyer questions, which I'd like to hear as well
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  507. winfried Anu: yes, please!
  508. Ge0rG Maybe we can ask Board for some budget regarding those.
  509. Anu 1: what level of logging is legal on xmpp servers
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  511. Anu 2: what info (presence/server logs) counts as pii and has to be purged when right to be forgotten is involved
  512. Ge0rG Anu: I think that server logs are pretty well covered under recital 49
  513. winfried Anu: +1 @ Ge0rG
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  515. Ge0rG http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-49-GDPR.htm
  516. winfried Anu: pii is also quite well defined
  517. Ge0rG winfried: is it really?
  518. Ge0rG I think there is still no clear consensus whether IP addresses are PII or not ,)
  519. winfried Ge0rG: they are
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  521. winfried (but IPadresses are a nice edge-case)
  522. pep. I was also told they are. But yeah they might not identify just one individual
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  524. Ge0rG Anu: the questions are also very technical. You'd have to explain to the lawyer how XMPP works, first.
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  530. winfried For the process right now: I propose we take a look at the tasks at hand check if we can do some of them before the next meeting and plan a next meeting...
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  532. pep. sure
  533. winfried https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
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  535. winfried I added 'TBD' on some places Q1.1d still needs some more details and from Q1.1e everything is work in progress.
  536. Ge0rG winfried: yeah. We should talk about federation now
  537. pep. I feel Q1.1e is going to be even more speculation than the rest
  538. winfried pep.: yes
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  540. Ge0rG pep.: I think there are some non-speculative parts in e. Like how to do a data retention policy, and how to implement the right to be forgotten
  541. winfried Ge0rG: Yes, starting with Q1.1b on S2S
  542. pep. Ge0rG, ok I wouldn't have put right to be forgotten in 1.1e
  543. winfried Next TBD Q1.1c on S2S
  544. Ge0rG so let's do S2S 1.1b and c
  545. pep. k
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  547. winfried pep.: 1.1e is *very* speculative
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  549. Ge0rG for 1.1b S2S: - s2s meta-data (IP addresses, hostnames, sessions, probably server logs) - I don't think the GDPR applies - user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing) - user content (messages, pubsub, ...)
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  551. pep. s2s meta-data, I think GDPR is out as well, it's not somebody's private info
  552. winfried agree
  553. Ge0rG - MUC history, MUC MAM
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  555. pep. Ok
  556. Ge0rG anything else for 1.1b?
  557. winfried can't think of anything right now
  558. pep. I think that covers pretty much everything
  559. Ge0rG remote components
  560. pep. include pubsub in there then
  561. Ge0rG there is component access to roster, I don't know which kind of data is a transport allowed to access there
  562. Anu 3: when an xmpp opeator is fined is it based on personal income if they are non profit?
  563. winfried remote_vibrator.tilanus.com? ;-)
  564. Ge0rG Anu: 3 -> no
  565. pep. Ge0rG, I would consider that as standard s2s
  566. Ge0rG Anu: the fine is max(0.04*turnover, 200k€) - so even if you are broke, you can be fined 200k€
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  568. winfried Who can add this to the wiki? One TBD down then!
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  570. pep. winfried, I'm taking the minutes
  571. Ge0rG pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0321.html#request_roster
  572. winfried pep.: thanks!
  573. pep. Ge0rG, hmm
  574. Ge0rG Remote Roster Management requires explicit user consent, and provides information about it, so I suppose this is well covered by the existing legal framework
  575. Ge0rG However, I'd like to have Remote Roster Management explicitly listed as a data type
  576. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  577. winfried good catch
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  579. pep. cool
  580. Ge0rG next: Q1.1c
  581. winfried - transfer to an other controller
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  584. winfried - archiving (MAM, MAM on MUC)
  585. Ge0rG - s2s meta-data - typically just inside of server logs, so R49 probably applies - user meta-data: all transfer requires (implicit) user consent - by joining a MUC or sending a message to somebody or accepting a subscription
  586. pep. I had a legalese 101 question, what is meant by "third-party country" in chapter 5? Does that mean it only applies when transfering data to *other* countries?
  587. Ge0rG pep.: non-EU
  588. winfried pep.: transfer to non-EU is also a possible processing here....
  589. pep. So they always use this third-party country term from what I gathered, where is transfer within EU entites defined then
  590. winfried pep.: No, 5 is about transfer out the EU
  591. pep. I see
  592. Ge0rG winfried: does it matter if we do s2s inside or outside the EU?
  593. winfried Ge0rG: Yes
  594. Ge0rG then we need to separate that
  595. winfried outside chapter 5 applies, inside not
  596. pep. That's going to be fun
  597. winfried *big time*
  598. pep. Zash, be prepared to see a mod_gdpr appear at some point :p
  599. winfried pep.: before may the 25th :-P
  600. pep. heh
  601. winfried I have to leave soon :-(
  602. winfried new appointment?
  603. pep. Ok, we should do date of next
  604. pep. I'm free anytime. monday same time?
  605. winfried wfm
  606. winfried though monday better a bit earlier
  607. pep. What time?
  608. Valerian has joined
  609. winfried starting between 9:00 and 12:00 CEST works the best for me
  610. daniel has left
  611. Ge0rG I can starting 10:30CEST
  612. winfried jonasw: any possibility?
  613. pep. err that's 9:30am here ><
  614. pep. I'll have to get up
  615. pep. But ok
  616. pep. winfried, jonasw is not here. will try to ping him during the weekend
  617. winfried pep.: thanks
  618. pep. So monday 10:30CEST it is then?
  619. winfried yes
  620. pep. cool, *bang*
  621. winfried CU!
  622. winfried has left
  623. pep. Ge0rG, I would rename your "user meta-data" above in Q1.1c to "user data", it's talking about messages etc.
  624. ta has left
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  626. Ge0rG pep.: no, it's message routing metadata
  627. pep. Ok so we still have to cover user content then, that works
  628. pep. Though winfried mentioned MAM etc.
  629. Ge0rG MAM contains both
  630. alexis has joined
  631. pep. https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/Zc1c+aBtFP-49TYSX0T+7g/VcSdjDmU9rC0crMKwQyiehe9/ what I have for now. I'll have another read after lunch
  632. Dave Cridland has left
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  634. Anu Meeting still happening?
  635. Ge0rG Anu: nope
  636. alexis has joined
  637. Anu Aw ok
  638. Anu Looks like it was productive
  639. Anu Mod gdpr will probably be needed
  640. Anu Honestly gdpr is the biggest gift to walled garden monolithic messaging systems. Unless you control the whole stack it’s hard to be compliant
  641. alexis has left
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  643. Anu I’m wondering if xmpp will even be legal. It was made from another time and merrily leaks ip addresses to other servers
  644. Anu E.g push servers get device ips
  645. Ge0rG Anu: push servers like Google and Apple? They have your IP anyway
  646. Ge0rG Anu: I don't see how XMPP is different from email
  647. Anu No push like push.monal.im that use Apple to push to your device
  648. alexis has left
  649. Anu I know chatsecure and conversations have similar push servers
  650. Guus has left
  651. Holger Anu: Registration with the push service for Conversations works without revealing the IP address, though.
  652. Ge0rG Anu: push.monal.im talks to your XMPP server and to Apple APNS, not to the client
  653. pep. Yeah it's quite similar to email and I don't think they'd want to get rid of this. Also I didn't see anything federation specific in Google's policies
  654. Anu The out of band registration will log the device ip on the push server
  655. Holger (It's done via XMPP, i.e. routed over your server.)
  656. Holger Anu: In your case, yes.
  657. Ge0rG Anu: that's not part of the XEP, is it?
  658. Holger Right, the XEP doesn't specify how to register.
  659. Anu Or I’m mixing protocols :( hold on
  660. Anu Let me see
  661. Ge0rG so should I switch my father-in-law from ChatSecure to Monal now?
  662. Holger Anu: AFAIK clients register against push.monal.im via HTTP and thereby reveal their IP address (short of using some proxy), yes. I'm just saying it doesn't have to work this way, and doesn't for Conversations (but also for ChatSecure IIRC).
  663. Anu Not yet . I haven’t published the libsignal stuff
  664. Ge0rG Anu: no need for E2EE, just chat and http-upload
  665. Ge0rG not even MUCs
  666. daniel has left
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  668. Anu Bah you know I I’m tired when I don’t remember how my own push service works :(
  669. Anu Oh right it’s s2s in with token info
  670. Anu Tokens should be suitably pseudoanonymized
  671. Holger Anu: The actual registration step is via HTTP, AFAIK :-)
  672. Anu Ok
  673. Anu The rest call
  674. remko has joined
  675. Holger Yeah.
  676. Holger https://github.com/tmolitor-stud-tu/mod_push_appserver
  677. Anu Phew I thought I was thinking of another protocol
  678. Valerian has left
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  680. Holger :-)
  681. Valerian has joined
  682. jonasw monday 10:30 CEST wfm if we don’t draw it out too long, Ge0rG, winfried
  683. jonasw I’d like to leave at 11:30 CEST
  684. Anu No joke I have like four of them swirling in my head and they are all usually very similar
  685. Ge0rG Holger: is there a TL;DR about setting up push on an xmpp server the right way?
  686. Valerian has left
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  691. Holger Ge0rG: For ejabberd you enable mod_push and mod_push_keepalive, but that's probably not what you meant?
  692. pep. jonasw: cool
  693. valo has joined
  694. Ge0rG Holger: yeah, in retrospect it was pretty dumb to ask you things about my server.
  695. daniel I think the process on prosody isn't much harder
  696. Anu Yeah it’s pretty straightforward on prosody
  697. Anu That’s what I use
  698. Ge0rG I'm not sure if it's ChatSecure then that's borked, or if my father-in-law can't properly use his phone.
  699. jere has joined
  700. Holger mod_cloud_notify now supports the mod_push_keepalive magic AFAIK, at least partly.
  701. daniel I think for chatsecure you might want to look at the patched mod_cloud_notifiy
  702. Holger Hm or maybe not.
  703. daniel Don't ask me why that isn't mainline though
  704. Ge0rG daniel: patched where?
  705. Holger It is now.
  706. Holger Well a variant of it.
  707. Ge0rG since when?
  708. Holger (The same variant I'm going for with ejabberd.)
  709. Ge0rG So many questions. All off topic
  710. Anu Is the keep alive to keep the connection open?
  711. daniel Holger: a variant that is compat with Chatsecure?
  712. Holger daniel: Yes.
  713. daniel Cool
  714. Anu Why?
  715. daniel Anu: it's to check if the connection is still alive and if not send a push as a wakeup signal
  716. Holger Anu: It's to keep the stream management session open, yes. Mostly to make push notifications work for MUC messages.
  717. Anu Isn’t the whole point that we use the push to signal time to wake up
  718. Anu ah
  719. Anu Oh man so do you guys see me going offline constantly?
  720. Holger Anu: The client disconnects but the session remains alive.
  721. Anu Ah cool that’s exactly what I need!
  722. Anu I’ve only been using Monal with muc and push
  723. Holger Anu: For this to work, you must close the TCP session without terminating the XMPP stream.
  724. Anu Yes
  725. Guus has left
  726. Anu And resume it ok wake up
  727. Ge0rG The next thing we need to design: MUC notification filtering, where the mobile client doesn't need to be joined all the time but can connect and MAM-sync when the user is highlighted
  728. Anu Thats what I do now but user showing up as offline when I close the tcp connection has been driving me nuts
  729. Holger Anu: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html and https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html
  730. Holger Anu: I'm not sure whether mod_cloud_notify can be configured to do that.
  731. Ge0rG prosody will keep the session visible as online as long as smacks doesn't kill the zombie
  732. Anu I’m thinking about a completely non invasive fix for this on the client side. Ditch offline, it’s not really a thing anymore. It doesn’t solve the muc issue though
  733. Holger Ge0rG: But there's no hack to increase the timeout for the push case?
  734. Ge0rG Anu: "offline" is a limited use case, but "dnd" is rather important, I'd say
  735. Holger Ge0rG: Wouldn't you just silence your phone rather than hoping your contacts will respect that status?
  736. remko has left
  737. jonasw Holger, but letting contacts know that they won’t have success with sending you a message is probably nice?
  738. jonasw also maybe a thing which lets a sender override that dnd silence if and only if they are in some whitelist
  739. Holger I think "last activity" is a better indicator for success chances.
  740. Ge0rG Holger: my jabber goes dnd when I silence my phone.
  741. jonasw e.g. "people from the family group may circumvent phone dnd (raise a priority notification) if asked for"
  742. Holger jonasw: I mean in theory I see your point but in practice presence status is just always wrong.
  743. jonasw Holger, is it?
  744. Ge0rG Holger: I think "last activity" is a nice addon to proper dnd signaling
  745. jonasw Ge0rG, if I had that setting, I would always be dnd :)
  746. jonasw it would be great if the presence was reflected by the actual DND status of the phone.
  747. daniel has left
  748. Holger Ge0rG: My phone does the same, but I'm often available despite my phone being quiet. It's just always wrong.
  749. alexis has joined
  750. jonasw (not sure if this is lineageos specific, but it has a neat DND mode where you can say either priority only, alarms only or total silence for N hours)
  751. jonasw (or by time)
  752. Ge0rG jonasw: that lineageos mode is fucking with my brains.
  753. jonasw how?
  754. Ge0rG there used to be (silent+alarms|vibration|normal) and then they split up the first one into two different ones
  755. Ge0rG and one of them ended up also silencing the alarm.
  756. Ge0rG Really, who on earth wants their alarm silenced?
  757. pep. I say it's a valid use case
  758. jonasw there is probably a use-case for that.
  759. jonasw think small children wihch might be woken up or something, meetings of indefinite duration, …
  760. Ge0rG ...coming late to work.
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  768. jonasw that only happened when it -- I think -- didn’t reset the alarm volume after I accidentally triggered total silence
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  773. Anu My phone is permanent silenced haha
  774. Dave Cridland has left
  775. Anu I don’t even know what my alert tones are
  776. Anu But that might be a very narrow use case.
  777. Dave Cridland has left
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  779. Anu I honestly think one problem for xmpp is that there are mobile and desktop clients. Mobile will almost never be offline or away
  780. Anu Desktop might be.
  781. Ge0rG Anu: there are people shutting down wifi and mobile data over night
  782. Anu Really? That’s a thing?
  783. Ge0rG Anu: and there are people going outside of network coverage for hours
  784. andy has left
  785. jonasw Anu, it is a thing, I’m one of them
  786. Ge0rG my worst case is to take long phones when on 2G
  787. jonasw my phones battery doesn’t like if conversations is in 20 MUCs overnight for no reason.
  788. Ge0rG jonasw: but it is there for a reason!
  789. Anu Haha
  790. Ge0rG you could miss an xmpp rant!
  791. Holger Anu: I'm not sure the presence status is really that useful on the desktop either.
  792. Anu I’ve been thinking a lot about my ui choices and how they are rooted in 90s tech
  793. Anu I still have status under the username in the contact list
  794. jonasw Ge0rG, I can read up on XMPP rants in poezio :>
  795. Anu No one pays status anymore
  796. Anu Posts
  797. Anu It was a proto Twitter
  798. Ge0rG Anu: Kev suggested to rework status from a per-client thing to a per-account thing. It would make more sense then
  799. Holger Ge0rG: Would the result be much different from how clients show presence today?
  800. Seve/SouL I have my alarm silenced by the way
  801. Ge0rG Holger: probably not
  802. Seve/SouL I wake up just with the phone's vibration (although I usually wake up some minutes before it starts)
  803. Zash pep.: Make it so
  804. pep. Not exactly sure what would go in there though
  805. Ge0rG Anu: is there a Monal iOS beta program?
  806. pep. `forbid_non_compliant_s2s = true` :o
  807. ta has joined
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  809. Ge0rG Anu: if I "delete this account" from Monal, will it delete the account on the server or just the client setup for it?
  810. SamWhited has left
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  812. Ge0rG hm. the latest version is a year old and doesn't show contact names, but shows multiple JIDs per contact.
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  830. Maranda EU is becoming a mass of demented nonsense, well it was already but now it's even more.
  831. alexis has joined
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  836. Maranda waits for the "comprehensible TODO" summary about GDPR.
  837. Maranda Without the vomiting lagalese included. 😠
  838. pep. You'll have to deal with that vomiting legalese anyway
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  853. Maranda Not all of that pepe, I'm sure that 80% is as usual incomprehensible blah blah that ends in a possible "compression ratio" of 3/4
  854. daniel has left
  855. LNJ I started implementing SIMS (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html) in my XMPP client. The XEP tells me that data sent using Bits of Binary (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html) is stored on the server, but I can't find any definition of a protocol to send such data to the server. Also e.g. prosody says that the Bits of Binary XEP is server independant and thus works even if the server doesn't support it. I also can't find an implementation for ejabberd. Can somebody explain that? :D
  856. Ge0rG hey LNJ, you are working on Kaidan, right?
  857. Anu Ge0rg: will not delete from server.
  858. Anu There is a beta I can invite you to
  859. LNJ Ge0rg: Yep, that's right
  860. daniel LNJ: you basically just put base64 stuff in the same stanza
  861. Ge0rG Anu: yes please
  862. daniel On the root level of the stanza
  863. LNJ So of the root level of the SIMS Stanza?
  864. daniel No on the root level of the message stanza
  865. LNJ Ah ok
  866. daniel And then the Sims reference references that
  867. LNJ But isn't the BoB XEP saying to not include the data directly, if it's larger than ~1 KiB?
  868. daniel Yew
  869. daniel Yes
  870. efrit has left
  871. LNJ Ok, so I'll just ignore that fact ...
  872. LNJ :D
  873. daniel Ignore that. But keep them reasonable small I guess
  874. Ge0rG daniel: is SIMS the new OOB?
  875. daniel The entire stanza including mam overhead should be less than 10k bytes
  876. alexis has left
  877. daniel I was planning on generating thumbs with 2kb or 3
  878. andy has left
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  880. LNJ Ok then it should into 10 kB
  881. Valerian has joined
  882. LNJ * should fit
  883. daniel Just to be clear you could request bob from the other party in an iq request as well
  884. daniel That defeats the stateless part though
  885. daniel But bob would allow you to do that
  886. daniel Ge0rG: some people want it to be the new oob
  887. daniel I'm not entirely convinced
  888. daniel Partially because of the weirdness I've just talked about
  889. Ge0rG References has weirdness, SIMS does, OOB does too (in the IQ section)
  890. LNJ But that's not very nice if the other use has to be online. But I'll implement that as well, just for the case. :D
  891. Ge0rG Madness everywhere
  892. Zash People are weird
  893. Valerian has left
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  895. daniel I'm relatively convinced that the way I just described it is the way it is supposed to work (sticking it in the root of the message). However that is entirely unclear after reading the xep
  896. efrit has joined
  897. Ge0rG daniel: will you replace OOB with SIMS? References?
  898. daniel Replace. Probably not. Maybe I do both. I'm mostly in it for the thumbs
  899. SamWhited has left
  900. daniel While other people are in it for the mime tag
  901. daniel *most other people
  902. daniel But ux wise this opens a can of worms on the Conversations side
  903. Chobbes has joined
  904. daniel That's why i have been pushing this off
  905. jonasw hm, the last argument of yours on this I heard was "how does it work with e2ee"?
  906. Dave Cridland has left
  907. Ge0rG daniel: btw, how does Conversations handle non-picture uploads like PDF, or pictures that are attached instead of recompressed?
  908. Dave Cridland has left
  909. daniel it doesn't. but i don’t care. i'm just doing thumbs different in omemo
  910. jonasw so, virtually everywhere?
  911. daniel :-)
  912. alexis has left
  913. daniel public mucs
  914. alexis has joined
  915. jonasw so you’d auto-download/show content in public MUCs?
  916. daniel that's where thumbs will be used most of the time anyway
  917. daniel because they are not auto downloaded
  918. daniel unlike the rest of conversations
  919. jonasw ah I wa sthinking you were replacing auto-download with auto-show-thumbs-and-tap-for-full-version
  920. daniel mhhh maybe not. i still think i'll be autodownloading files by default
  921. daniel has left
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  923. daniel users can always turn that of. and having thumbs might make that more attractive
  924. daniel haven't thought about that before you brought that up
  925. jonasw maybe auto-fetch thumbs and download full versions when and only while the conversation is in view?
  926. daniel yeah maybe. first things first though. implement thumbs and aftewards we can maybe think about changing the auto download defaults
  927. ludo has left
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  929. daniel Ge0rG, things that exceed the auto download size currently have a normal button that says 'donwload pdf document'
  930. daniel or download mime/type if it's not well known
  931. Maranda wonders how'll that work with gdpr.
  932. Maranda (auto fetching thumbs)
  933. daniel and files for which i do not have a thumbnail after download will just display an open $foo button
  934. Ge0rG you leak your IP if you are browsing images in any random web forum, so meh.
  935. Ge0rG daniel: if you plan to auto-download, there is no need to pursue thumbs. Except for huge files
  936. Maranda Ge0rG, *made in legalese*
  937. daniel yes like i said the way it currently works they will mostly be shown in mucs
  938. daniel where i don't have auto download
  939. lumi has joined
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  941. daniel but they open the door to changing the auto download behaviour as jonas and i were just discussing
  942. daniel plus fancy
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  956. Ge0rG LNJ: do you happen to have a Kaidan MUC?
  957. LNJ Well ... yes, but after file uploads
  958. LNJ AH .. you mean a channel
  959. Ge0rG LNJ: yes. A place where I can bother you without going through github
  960. LNJ Yes there was one at kaidan@conference.siacs.eu .. but I'd prefer a new on the new kaidan.im server
  961. LNJ Wait, I'll create one ..
  962. Seve/SouL Thanks, LNJ.
  963. Ge0rG was hosting the inofficial dino MUC for a while, until the devs finally made their own one
  964. LNJ xmpp:kaidan@muc.kaidan.im?join
  965. LNJ ... wait need to configure my dns
  966. LNJ Haven't used muc before on that server
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  1029. moparisthebest yay it's back https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-02
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  1033. moparisthebest they also thankfully mention hiding ALPN using the same mechanisms
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