-
Seve/SouL
Yes, people get scared when hear Jabber, as UsL said, people then to make 'do not like face' saying 'the old old chat thing??' (in case they know it)
-
Ge0rG
I'm still waiting for a viable alternative proposal that will work without a multi million marketing campaign
-
Neustradamus
Ge0rG: first migrate the planet to xmpp.org ^^
-
UsL
so I replied in operators@ instead of here.. : S
-
UsL
still havent had my morning coffee :O
-
edhelas
I have more and more spam each days
-
Ge0rG
UsL: you might associate Jabber with a low-quality implementation, but at least you know what it is about.
-
edhelas
my only solution for now is to blacklist more and more servers
-
Guus
I frown upon people not taking their morning coffee ceremony seriously.
-
Guus
(afk, getting coffee)
-
Ge0rG
Guus: have a nice weekend
-
Guus
Weekend? We've got an entire workday ahead of us 🙂
-
Ge0rG
Guus: in that case you don't take your morning coffee ceremony sufficiently serious.
-
intosi
Broken records are broken.
-
Guus
yes, that was the implied joke.
-
Neustradamus
https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/styles/header_slider/public/display_list/friday.jpg
-
Maranda
Just one coffee??!!
- Maranda looks at his the "quadruple" espresso coffee cup.
-
Maranda
s/the//
- Ge0rG 's got a 475ml on-the-go coffee cup.
-
Guus
My office is also my kitchen, where the espresso machine is. 😊
-
intosi
Deliberately keeping my coffee machine two floors down from my office ;)
-
UsL
yes, that is the case. Still, jabber and the lightbulb feels dated compared to xmpp and the xmpp logo. Is it supposed to be two horns? Or two of those ancient looking baskets that Miss Fortuna held. Cornucopia. Had to look it up.
-
UsL
haha, I'll try to coffee before talking hence forth
-
Ge0rG
UsL: nobody knows I think.
-
Ge0rG
There was a long logo discussion last year
-
UsL
the description fits though: "commonly a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers or nuts."
-
UsL
: D
-
UsL
nuts!
-
Ge0rG
The only thing I can agree on. We are all nuts.
-
UsL
that settles it. The logo depicts two cornucopias
-
Maranda
🤔
-
Maranda
🤯
-
Seve/SouL
I love the XMPP logo
-
Seve/SouL
Feels modern
-
Seve/SouL
(subjective I know)
-
Maranda
Too bad that normal people can't stop going "what" whenever you mention "ECS-AM-PEE-PEE" who knows maybe it's the two final P ™️. Thoughts?
-
Ge0rG
Maranda: just ask them for their JID then.
-
Maranda
😎
-
Guus
I think the logo form is based on the 'X' in XMPP.
-
Maranda
UsL was till on the way out of his trip with "cornucopias and stuff" me thinks
-
Maranda
s/till/still/
-
Ge0rG
Maranda: so you are processing urine of former military police personnel? That's noble.
-
Zash
The pointy bit of speech balloons?
-
Maranda
Ge0rG 🤨 that statement didn't 🖥
-
Maranda
E_CONTEXT
-
Ge0rG
Maranda: ex MP pee.
-
Maranda
Ohh
-
Maranda
😆
-
Zash
Members of Parliament?
-
Holger
Zash, flow: Seems I'm missing something regarding "Blocking of subscription request denials"? What's the problem with the server (1) handling my 'unsubscribed' presence as usual but (2) not forwarding it to the requester?
-
Holger
flow: > on subsequent incoming requests from the blocked entity have the server send an error (or rejection) presence. This would clearly violate 0191 ("For presence stanzas (including notifications, subscriptions, and probes), the server MUST NOT respond and MUST NOT return an error"), no?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: those, too.
-
flow
Holger, I'm not sure if we talk about the same thing anymore. What I have in mind is: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) B blocks A; at 2 A's server could reject the sub request from the blocked entity
-
flow
What is the rationale of xep191 becoming a presence blackhole?
-
Zash
Holger: Possibly an implementation detail. Gets complicated for one plugin to let another do some of the processing for an event but not other.
-
flow
Holger, you seem to talk about: 1) A sends sub request to B; 2) A blocks B; 3) B rejects A's sub request
-
flow
In which case I'd also say that the server should simply process the rejection (unsubscribed) as usual
-
jonasw
winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry
-
Zash
flow: You send me a sub request. I block you, then I deny that request. I get an error because I blocked you, and then I get the request sent to me every time I sign in with no way to do anything about it.
-
Zash
Holger: ^
-
Holger
flow: No I didn't talk about the latter case but about the one Zash repeated now.
-
Holger
I can easily see this being meh to implement. I was just wondering whether I got the scenario wrong. Maybe I didn't after all :-)
-
Zash
Might be a case of "being modular is hard"
-
flow
You get an error if you send a stanza to an entity you have blocked?
-
Zash
> If the user attempts to send an outbound stanza to the JID, the user's > server MUST NOT route the stanza to the JID but instead MUST return a > <not-acceptable/> error [...]
-
flow
bummer
-
Zash
I suppose you could argue that presence management stanzas are not outbound stanzas.
-
Holger
Zash: So process the stanza and send an error :-)
-
flow
I wonder what's the rationale behind that
-
Holger
Zash: Hah I thought I'm kidding but seems that's ejabberd's behavior.
-
Holger
Probably does the trick in practice.
-
Zash
Looks like Prosody would send the not-acceptable error to itself, not to the user, if presence handling was done before blocking.
-
Holger
Talking to yourself can be healthy.
-
Zash
We're already breaking another MUST so that you don't get a ton of not-acceptable in response to normal presence broadcasts, in case you've blocked a bunch of subscription=both|from contacts
-
Ge0rG
what's wrong with that not-acceptable? It allows the client to show the contact as "bad"
-
Holger
Zash: What MUST are you breaking in that case?
-
Zash
That same one I quoted above
-
Zash
It doesn't distinguish between presence stanzas sent from the server and those sent from the user.
-
Zash
Ge0rG: Hmmm
-
Ge0rG
Can we persist error messages in offline storage/MAM?
-
Holger
Zash: A presence broadcast qualifies as an attempt "to send an outbound stanza to the JID"?
-
Zash
How do you know your denial was processed
-
pep.
GDPR meeting in 5min!
-
Ge0rG
Uh-oh!
-
Ge0rG
I'm totally unprepared.
-
winfried
Sorry, will be late and have to leave early
- Ge0rG attempts to remember who the other GDPR expert was some days ago
-
pep.
!
-
pep.
jonasw, ?
-
Ge0rG
pep.: jonasw> winfried, Ge0rG: I wont be able to make todays meeting, sorry
-
pep.
okay
-
pep.
Shall we start anyway? Have a look at what's left
-
pep.
winfried, how long do you have
-
Anu
Me?
-
Anu
Where is gdpr meeting? Here?
-
pep.
Appart from the LQ{1,2}, I think we've covered the C2S case pretty much already?
-
pep.
Anu, yes
-
Ge0rG
Anu: here and now, though we are missing some people
-
pep.
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
-
Anu
Also dealing with baby so I might lurk
-
Ge0rG
hi Anu! :)
-
pep.
I'm taking minutes of whatever this will be :p
-
Anu
I’ll try to participate to the best of my ability
-
Ge0rG
It looks like we are missing two participants, including our chair.
-
Ge0rG
I can try to chair a bit, but I'm rather unprepared, so brace for a very loosely organized session
-
pep.
I guess we'll do it short and plan another date
- winfried is present
-
pep.
winfried, ready?
-
Ge0rG
I think we have multiple points that still need to be worked out: Q1.1d List legal grounds for the processing - that didn't feel quite finished to me, especially regarding federation Q1.1e Analyse possible consequences Q1.2: What consequences does the GDPR has for the XMPP server operators Q1.3: What can/should the XSF do with it?
-
winfried
have to leave at 14:00 CEST (35 minutes from now)
-
winfried
Ge0rG: yes, S2S / federation is still open
-
Ge0rG
I've briefly looked at GDPR work in the IETF, but didn't find something like a WG, it's just a topic in different sub-orgs
-
Ge0rG
Anu wanted to add more lawyer questions, which I'd like to hear as well
-
winfried
Anu: yes, please!
-
Ge0rG
Maybe we can ask Board for some budget regarding those.
-
Anu
1: what level of logging is legal on xmpp servers
-
Anu
2: what info (presence/server logs) counts as pii and has to be purged when right to be forgotten is involved
-
Ge0rG
Anu: I think that server logs are pretty well covered under recital 49
-
winfried
Anu: +1 @ Ge0rG
-
Ge0rG
http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-49-GDPR.htm
-
winfried
Anu: pii is also quite well defined
-
Ge0rG
winfried: is it really?
-
Ge0rG
I think there is still no clear consensus whether IP addresses are PII or not ,)
-
winfried
Ge0rG: they are
-
winfried
(but IPadresses are a nice edge-case)
-
pep.
I was also told they are. But yeah they might not identify just one individual
-
Ge0rG
Anu: the questions are also very technical. You'd have to explain to the lawyer how XMPP works, first.
-
winfried
For the process right now: I propose we take a look at the tasks at hand check if we can do some of them before the next meeting and plan a next meeting...
-
pep.
sure
-
winfried
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
-
winfried
I added 'TBD' on some places Q1.1d still needs some more details and from Q1.1e everything is work in progress.
-
Ge0rG
winfried: yeah. We should talk about federation now
-
pep.
I feel Q1.1e is going to be even more speculation than the rest
-
winfried
pep.: yes
-
Ge0rG
pep.: I think there are some non-speculative parts in e. Like how to do a data retention policy, and how to implement the right to be forgotten
-
winfried
Ge0rG: Yes, starting with Q1.1b on S2S
-
pep.
Ge0rG, ok I wouldn't have put right to be forgotten in 1.1e
-
winfried
Next TBD Q1.1c on S2S
-
Ge0rG
so let's do S2S 1.1b and c
-
pep.
k
-
winfried
pep.: 1.1e is *very* speculative
-
Ge0rG
for 1.1b S2S: - s2s meta-data (IP addresses, hostnames, sessions, probably server logs) - I don't think the GDPR applies - user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing) - user content (messages, pubsub, ...)
-
pep.
s2s meta-data, I think GDPR is out as well, it's not somebody's private info
-
winfried
agree
-
Ge0rG
- MUC history, MUC MAM
-
pep.
Ok
-
Ge0rG
anything else for 1.1b?
-
winfried
can't think of anything right now
-
pep.
I think that covers pretty much everything
-
Ge0rG
remote components
-
pep.
include pubsub in there then
-
Ge0rG
there is component access to roster, I don't know which kind of data is a transport allowed to access there
-
Anu
3: when an xmpp opeator is fined is it based on personal income if they are non profit?
-
winfried
remote_vibrator.tilanus.com? ;-)
-
Ge0rG
Anu: 3 -> no
-
pep.
Ge0rG, I would consider that as standard s2s
-
Ge0rG
Anu: the fine is max(0.04*turnover, 200k€) - so even if you are broke, you can be fined 200k€
-
winfried
Who can add this to the wiki? One TBD down then!
-
pep.
winfried, I'm taking the minutes
-
Ge0rG
pep.: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0321.html#request_roster
-
winfried
pep.: thanks!
-
pep.
Ge0rG, hmm
-
Ge0rG
Remote Roster Management requires explicit user consent, and provides information about it, so I suppose this is well covered by the existing legal framework
-
Ge0rG
However, I'd like to have Remote Roster Management explicitly listed as a data type
-
winfried
Ge0rG: +1
-
winfried
good catch
-
pep.
cool
-
Ge0rG
next: Q1.1c
-
winfried
- transfer to an other controller
-
winfried
- archiving (MAM, MAM on MUC)
-
Ge0rG
- s2s meta-data - typically just inside of server logs, so R49 probably applies - user meta-data: all transfer requires (implicit) user consent - by joining a MUC or sending a message to somebody or accepting a subscription
-
pep.
I had a legalese 101 question, what is meant by "third-party country" in chapter 5? Does that mean it only applies when transfering data to *other* countries?
-
Ge0rG
pep.: non-EU
-
winfried
pep.: transfer to non-EU is also a possible processing here....
-
pep.
So they always use this third-party country term from what I gathered, where is transfer within EU entites defined then
-
winfried
pep.: No, 5 is about transfer out the EU
-
pep.
I see
-
Ge0rG
winfried: does it matter if we do s2s inside or outside the EU?
-
winfried
Ge0rG: Yes
-
Ge0rG
then we need to separate that
-
winfried
outside chapter 5 applies, inside not
-
pep.
That's going to be fun
-
winfried
*big time*
-
pep.
Zash, be prepared to see a mod_gdpr appear at some point :p
-
winfried
pep.: before may the 25th :-P
-
pep.
heh
-
winfried
I have to leave soon :-(
-
winfried
new appointment?
-
pep.
Ok, we should do date of next
-
pep.
I'm free anytime. monday same time?
-
winfried
wfm
-
winfried
though monday better a bit earlier
-
pep.
What time?
-
winfried
starting between 9:00 and 12:00 CEST works the best for me
-
Ge0rG
I can starting 10:30CEST
-
winfried
jonasw: any possibility?
-
pep.
err that's 9:30am here ><
-
pep.
I'll have to get up
-
pep.
But ok
-
pep.
winfried, jonasw is not here. will try to ping him during the weekend
-
winfried
pep.: thanks
-
pep.
So monday 10:30CEST it is then?
-
winfried
yes
-
pep.
cool, *bang*
-
winfried
CU!
-
pep.
Ge0rG, I would rename your "user meta-data" above in Q1.1c to "user data", it's talking about messages etc.
-
Ge0rG
pep.: no, it's message routing metadata
-
pep.
Ok so we still have to cover user content then, that works
-
pep.
Though winfried mentioned MAM etc.
-
Ge0rG
MAM contains both
-
pep.
https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/Zc1c+aBtFP-49TYSX0T+7g/VcSdjDmU9rC0crMKwQyiehe9/ what I have for now. I'll have another read after lunch
-
Anu
Meeting still happening?
-
Ge0rG
Anu: nope
-
Anu
Aw ok
-
Anu
Looks like it was productive
-
Anu
Mod gdpr will probably be needed
-
Anu
Honestly gdpr is the biggest gift to walled garden monolithic messaging systems. Unless you control the whole stack it’s hard to be compliant
-
Anu
I’m wondering if xmpp will even be legal. It was made from another time and merrily leaks ip addresses to other servers
-
Anu
E.g push servers get device ips
-
Ge0rG
Anu: push servers like Google and Apple? They have your IP anyway
-
Ge0rG
Anu: I don't see how XMPP is different from email
-
Anu
No push like push.monal.im that use Apple to push to your device
-
Anu
I know chatsecure and conversations have similar push servers
-
Holger
Anu: Registration with the push service for Conversations works without revealing the IP address, though.
-
Ge0rG
Anu: push.monal.im talks to your XMPP server and to Apple APNS, not to the client
-
pep.
Yeah it's quite similar to email and I don't think they'd want to get rid of this. Also I didn't see anything federation specific in Google's policies
-
Anu
The out of band registration will log the device ip on the push server
-
Holger
(It's done via XMPP, i.e. routed over your server.)
-
Holger
Anu: In your case, yes.
-
Ge0rG
Anu: that's not part of the XEP, is it?
-
Holger
Right, the XEP doesn't specify how to register.
-
Anu
Or I’m mixing protocols :( hold on
-
Anu
Let me see
-
Ge0rG
so should I switch my father-in-law from ChatSecure to Monal now?
-
Holger
Anu: AFAIK clients register against push.monal.im via HTTP and thereby reveal their IP address (short of using some proxy), yes. I'm just saying it doesn't have to work this way, and doesn't for Conversations (but also for ChatSecure IIRC).
-
Anu
Not yet . I haven’t published the libsignal stuff
-
Ge0rG
Anu: no need for E2EE, just chat and http-upload
-
Ge0rG
not even MUCs
-
Anu
Bah you know I I’m tired when I don’t remember how my own push service works :(
-
Anu
Oh right it’s s2s in with token info
-
Anu
Tokens should be suitably pseudoanonymized
-
Holger
Anu: The actual registration step is via HTTP, AFAIK :-)
-
Anu
Ok
-
Anu
The rest call
-
Holger
Yeah.
-
Holger
https://github.com/tmolitor-stud-tu/mod_push_appserver
-
Anu
Phew I thought I was thinking of another protocol
-
Holger
:-)
-
jonasw
monday 10:30 CEST wfm if we don’t draw it out too long, Ge0rG, winfried
-
jonasw
I’d like to leave at 11:30 CEST
-
Anu
No joke I have like four of them swirling in my head and they are all usually very similar
-
Ge0rG
Holger: is there a TL;DR about setting up push on an xmpp server the right way?
-
Holger
Ge0rG: For ejabberd you enable mod_push and mod_push_keepalive, but that's probably not what you meant?
-
pep.
jonasw: cool
-
Ge0rG
Holger: yeah, in retrospect it was pretty dumb to ask you things about my server.
-
daniel
I think the process on prosody isn't much harder
-
Anu
Yeah it’s pretty straightforward on prosody
-
Anu
That’s what I use
-
Ge0rG
I'm not sure if it's ChatSecure then that's borked, or if my father-in-law can't properly use his phone.
-
Holger
mod_cloud_notify now supports the mod_push_keepalive magic AFAIK, at least partly.
-
daniel
I think for chatsecure you might want to look at the patched mod_cloud_notifiy
-
Holger
Hm or maybe not.
-
daniel
Don't ask me why that isn't mainline though
-
Ge0rG
daniel: patched where?
-
Holger
It is now.
-
Holger
Well a variant of it.
-
Ge0rG
since when?
-
Holger
(The same variant I'm going for with ejabberd.)
-
Ge0rG
So many questions. All off topic
-
Anu
Is the keep alive to keep the connection open?
-
daniel
Holger: a variant that is compat with Chatsecure?
-
Holger
daniel: Yes.
-
daniel
Cool
-
Anu
Why?
-
daniel
Anu: it's to check if the connection is still alive and if not send a push as a wakeup signal
-
Holger
Anu: It's to keep the stream management session open, yes. Mostly to make push notifications work for MUC messages.
-
Anu
Isn’t the whole point that we use the push to signal time to wake up
-
Anu
ah
-
Anu
Oh man so do you guys see me going offline constantly?
-
Holger
Anu: The client disconnects but the session remains alive.
-
Anu
Ah cool that’s exactly what I need!
-
Anu
I’ve only been using Monal with muc and push
-
Holger
Anu: For this to work, you must close the TCP session without terminating the XMPP stream.
-
Anu
Yes
-
Anu
And resume it ok wake up
-
Ge0rG
The next thing we need to design: MUC notification filtering, where the mobile client doesn't need to be joined all the time but can connect and MAM-sync when the user is highlighted
-
Anu
Thats what I do now but user showing up as offline when I close the tcp connection has been driving me nuts
-
Holger
Anu: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html and https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2016-February/030925.html
-
Holger
Anu: I'm not sure whether mod_cloud_notify can be configured to do that.
-
Ge0rG
prosody will keep the session visible as online as long as smacks doesn't kill the zombie
-
Anu
I’m thinking about a completely non invasive fix for this on the client side. Ditch offline, it’s not really a thing anymore. It doesn’t solve the muc issue though
-
Holger
Ge0rG: But there's no hack to increase the timeout for the push case?
-
Ge0rG
Anu: "offline" is a limited use case, but "dnd" is rather important, I'd say
-
Holger
Ge0rG: Wouldn't you just silence your phone rather than hoping your contacts will respect that status?
-
jonasw
Holger, but letting contacts know that they won’t have success with sending you a message is probably nice?
-
jonasw
also maybe a thing which lets a sender override that dnd silence if and only if they are in some whitelist
-
Holger
I think "last activity" is a better indicator for success chances.
-
Ge0rG
Holger: my jabber goes dnd when I silence my phone.
-
jonasw
e.g. "people from the family group may circumvent phone dnd (raise a priority notification) if asked for"
-
Holger
jonasw: I mean in theory I see your point but in practice presence status is just always wrong.
-
jonasw
Holger, is it?
-
Ge0rG
Holger: I think "last activity" is a nice addon to proper dnd signaling
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, if I had that setting, I would always be dnd :)
-
jonasw
it would be great if the presence was reflected by the actual DND status of the phone.
-
Holger
Ge0rG: My phone does the same, but I'm often available despite my phone being quiet. It's just always wrong.
-
jonasw
(not sure if this is lineageos specific, but it has a neat DND mode where you can say either priority only, alarms only or total silence for N hours)
-
jonasw
(or by time)
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: that lineageos mode is fucking with my brains.
-
jonasw
how?
-
Ge0rG
there used to be (silent+alarms|vibration|normal) and then they split up the first one into two different ones
-
Ge0rG
and one of them ended up also silencing the alarm.
-
Ge0rG
Really, who on earth wants their alarm silenced?
-
pep.
I say it's a valid use case
-
jonasw
there is probably a use-case for that.
-
jonasw
think small children wihch might be woken up or something, meetings of indefinite duration, …
-
Ge0rG
...coming late to work.
-
jonasw
that only happened when it -- I think -- didn’t reset the alarm volume after I accidentally triggered total silence
-
Anu
My phone is permanent silenced haha
-
Anu
I don’t even know what my alert tones are
-
Anu
But that might be a very narrow use case.
-
Anu
I honestly think one problem for xmpp is that there are mobile and desktop clients. Mobile will almost never be offline or away
-
Anu
Desktop might be.
-
Ge0rG
Anu: there are people shutting down wifi and mobile data over night
-
Anu
Really? That’s a thing?
-
Ge0rG
Anu: and there are people going outside of network coverage for hours
-
jonasw
Anu, it is a thing, I’m one of them
-
Ge0rG
my worst case is to take long phones when on 2G
-
jonasw
my phones battery doesn’t like if conversations is in 20 MUCs overnight for no reason.
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: but it is there for a reason!
-
Anu
Haha
-
Ge0rG
you could miss an xmpp rant!
-
Holger
Anu: I'm not sure the presence status is really that useful on the desktop either.
-
Anu
I’ve been thinking a lot about my ui choices and how they are rooted in 90s tech
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Anu
I still have status under the username in the contact list
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jonasw
Ge0rG, I can read up on XMPP rants in poezio :>
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Anu
No one pays status anymore
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Anu
Posts
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Anu
It was a proto Twitter
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Ge0rG
Anu: Kev suggested to rework status from a per-client thing to a per-account thing. It would make more sense then
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Holger
Ge0rG: Would the result be much different from how clients show presence today?
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Seve/SouL
I have my alarm silenced by the way
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Ge0rG
Holger: probably not
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Seve/SouL
I wake up just with the phone's vibration (although I usually wake up some minutes before it starts)
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Zash
pep.: Make it so
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pep.
Not exactly sure what would go in there though
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Ge0rG
Anu: is there a Monal iOS beta program?
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pep.
`forbid_non_compliant_s2s = true` :o
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Ge0rG
Anu: if I "delete this account" from Monal, will it delete the account on the server or just the client setup for it?
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Ge0rG
hm. the latest version is a year old and doesn't show contact names, but shows multiple JIDs per contact.
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Maranda
EU is becoming a mass of demented nonsense, well it was already but now it's even more.
- Maranda waits for the "comprehensible TODO" summary about GDPR.
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Maranda
Without the vomiting lagalese included. 😠
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pep.
You'll have to deal with that vomiting legalese anyway
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Maranda
Not all of that pepe, I'm sure that 80% is as usual incomprehensible blah blah that ends in a possible "compression ratio" of 3/4
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LNJ
I started implementing SIMS (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html) in my XMPP client. The XEP tells me that data sent using Bits of Binary (https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html) is stored on the server, but I can't find any definition of a protocol to send such data to the server. Also e.g. prosody says that the Bits of Binary XEP is server independant and thus works even if the server doesn't support it. I also can't find an implementation for ejabberd. Can somebody explain that? :D
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Ge0rG
hey LNJ, you are working on Kaidan, right?
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Anu
Ge0rg: will not delete from server.
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Anu
There is a beta I can invite you to
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LNJ
Ge0rg: Yep, that's right
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daniel
LNJ: you basically just put base64 stuff in the same stanza
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Ge0rG
Anu: yes please
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daniel
On the root level of the stanza
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LNJ
So of the root level of the SIMS Stanza?
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daniel
No on the root level of the message stanza
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LNJ
Ah ok
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daniel
And then the Sims reference references that
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LNJ
But isn't the BoB XEP saying to not include the data directly, if it's larger than ~1 KiB?
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daniel
Yew
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daniel
Yes
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LNJ
Ok, so I'll just ignore that fact ...
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LNJ
:D
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daniel
Ignore that. But keep them reasonable small I guess
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Ge0rG
daniel: is SIMS the new OOB?
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daniel
The entire stanza including mam overhead should be less than 10k bytes
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daniel
I was planning on generating thumbs with 2kb or 3
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LNJ
Ok then it should into 10 kB
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LNJ
* should fit
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daniel
Just to be clear you could request bob from the other party in an iq request as well
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daniel
That defeats the stateless part though
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daniel
But bob would allow you to do that
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daniel
Ge0rG: some people want it to be the new oob
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daniel
I'm not entirely convinced
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daniel
Partially because of the weirdness I've just talked about
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Ge0rG
References has weirdness, SIMS does, OOB does too (in the IQ section)
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LNJ
But that's not very nice if the other use has to be online. But I'll implement that as well, just for the case. :D
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Ge0rG
Madness everywhere
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Zash
People are weird
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daniel
I'm relatively convinced that the way I just described it is the way it is supposed to work (sticking it in the root of the message). However that is entirely unclear after reading the xep
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Ge0rG
daniel: will you replace OOB with SIMS? References?
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daniel
Replace. Probably not. Maybe I do both. I'm mostly in it for the thumbs
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daniel
While other people are in it for the mime tag
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daniel
*most other people
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daniel
But ux wise this opens a can of worms on the Conversations side
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daniel
That's why i have been pushing this off
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jonasw
hm, the last argument of yours on this I heard was "how does it work with e2ee"?
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Ge0rG
daniel: btw, how does Conversations handle non-picture uploads like PDF, or pictures that are attached instead of recompressed?
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daniel
it doesn't. but i don’t care. i'm just doing thumbs different in omemo
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jonasw
so, virtually everywhere?
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daniel
:-)
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daniel
public mucs
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jonasw
so you’d auto-download/show content in public MUCs?
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daniel
that's where thumbs will be used most of the time anyway
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daniel
because they are not auto downloaded
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daniel
unlike the rest of conversations
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jonasw
ah I wa sthinking you were replacing auto-download with auto-show-thumbs-and-tap-for-full-version
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daniel
mhhh maybe not. i still think i'll be autodownloading files by default
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daniel
users can always turn that of. and having thumbs might make that more attractive
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daniel
haven't thought about that before you brought that up
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jonasw
maybe auto-fetch thumbs and download full versions when and only while the conversation is in view?
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daniel
yeah maybe. first things first though. implement thumbs and aftewards we can maybe think about changing the auto download defaults
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daniel
Ge0rG, things that exceed the auto download size currently have a normal button that says 'donwload pdf document'
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daniel
or download mime/type if it's not well known
- Maranda wonders how'll that work with gdpr.
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Maranda
(auto fetching thumbs)
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daniel
and files for which i do not have a thumbnail after download will just display an open $foo button
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Ge0rG
you leak your IP if you are browsing images in any random web forum, so meh.
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Ge0rG
daniel: if you plan to auto-download, there is no need to pursue thumbs. Except for huge files
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Maranda
Ge0rG, *made in legalese*
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daniel
yes like i said the way it currently works they will mostly be shown in mucs
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daniel
where i don't have auto download
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daniel
but they open the door to changing the auto download behaviour as jonas and i were just discussing
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daniel
plus fancy
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Ge0rG
LNJ: do you happen to have a Kaidan MUC?
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LNJ
Well ... yes, but after file uploads
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LNJ
AH .. you mean a channel
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Ge0rG
LNJ: yes. A place where I can bother you without going through github
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LNJ
Yes there was one at kaidan@conference.siacs.eu .. but I'd prefer a new on the new kaidan.im server
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LNJ
Wait, I'll create one ..
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Seve/SouL
Thanks, LNJ.
- Ge0rG was hosting the inofficial dino MUC for a while, until the devs finally made their own one
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LNJ
xmpp:kaidan@muc.kaidan.im?join
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LNJ
... wait need to configure my dns
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LNJ
Haven't used muc before on that server
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moparisthebest
yay it's back https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption-02
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moparisthebest
they also thankfully mention hiding ALPN using the same mechanisms
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Ge0rG
Looks like our editors are on Easter holidays.