edhelas> I think the solution is a set of improvements. RSS as a protocol needs to be expanded so that it can offer more data around prioritization as well as other signals critical to making the technology more effective at the reader layer. This isn’t just about updating the protocol, but also about updating all of the content management systems that publish an RSS feed to take advantage of those features.
edhelasPubsub :-° ?
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Andrew NenakhovI've read that article in my RSS reader. To me, RSS is pretty much alive.
edhelasAndrew Nenakhov don't wanna use Pubsub :D Movim is my news reader B-)
Ge0rGI fixed my poezio, but this is still the worst monday I've had this year
jonaswyet.
Ge0rGright.
jonaswGe0rG, set up a disk quota for your borg things so that they can’t eat all the disk space.
jonaswdisk quotas aren’t deep magic
Ge0rGjonasw: good point. But then I couldn't prune the old backups any more because pruning would exceed the quota
jonaswalso allows you to disable/unset the quota while pruning when you need that
jonaswit’s all a matter of invoking edquota and increasing the limit temporarily :)
Ge0rGI didn't even anticipate the backups to grow that large.
jonaswor maybe use that cuteborg alpha software which schedules prunes automatically. (shameless plug)
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pep.My computer has decided to be angry at me this morning, should be here soon
jonaswokay, now I’m getting wary, why hasn’t any of my stuff failed today.
winfriedbad digital karma today, what did we do to our computers to make them so upset?
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pep.made it!
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jonasw\o/
jonaswI’m not up for chairing or anything, having mild headache.
winfriedbangs a gavel and looks around in mild bewilderment, what to do now?
pep.!
winfriedWould it be ok, to slowly progress through the list at the wiki?
jonaswseems good
pep.Ah I haven't updated with last week's
Ge0rGYes please
winfriedGe0rG: you mentioned there are discussions about ip-adresses being pii or not, maybe we should settle that one first
Ge0rGwinfried: I don't think we should.
jonaswI don’t think that’s useful.
pep.Can _we_ settle anything?
winfriedok, we don't settle it ;-)
Ge0rGwinfried: in our context it's best to consider them as PII
jonaswfirst, what pep. says, lots of laywers have been fighting over that already before the GDPR, and second I think that would let us lose ourselves in details.
Ge0rGwinfried: my point was just to show the ambiguity of the legal framework
winfriedGe0rG: clear and good course of action
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winfriedQ1.1d, do we dig into that one further?
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Ge0rGFor the logs and newcomers: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
Ge0rGwinfried: I think we weren't done with 1.1c for s2s
winfriedok, 1,1c it will be
pep.I want s/Archiving/user content/ on the notes to make it just like the others
pep.I would s/Archiving/user content/ on the notes to make it just like the others
Ge0rGYes please
winfried+1
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Ge0rGWe are also lacking logs of 1.1b s2s in the wiki
pep.yes, let me put last week's in there
Ge0rGMaybe somebody could paste from the minutes
Ge0rGSo that we can proceed from there
winfriedmaybe it is good to make clear: transfer itself is a processing, but needs explicitation about what data is transfered, what processing is done on the other side and with what purpose...
jonaswcan we know the processing on the other side, really?
jonaswsince there’s no contract or something which would be binding for the other side.
pep.I don't think we can
jonaswthey could store the message forever even without advertising MAM
pep.I think we'd best assume the worst once the messages are gone over s2s
jonaswyes. the question is: how do we tell the users?
pep.Just as I did? :/
winfriedmaybe we can define a xep & service discovery that just says: this server keeps to these rules....
jonaswand how do we tell the users in a way that they can give consent properly, and don’t wander off to silo services?
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jonaswwinfried, hmm, you mean the GDPR-policy-XEP pep. wanted to write for c2s could be used for s2s too?
jonaswinteresting.
jonaswquestion is, would a user still have to consent for each remote domain?
pep.Also, I trust my own server, I'm not sure I trust many others
Ge0rGjonasw: I tend to slightly disagree
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winfriedjonasw: think that in many cases it does't, but it is our task to find out
jonaswGe0rG, with what exactly? I think I mostly asked questions at this point :D
Ge0rGas winfried said last time, this is handing off of data to another controller. The other controller is also bound by GDPR rules, so they can't just do anything they want with the data. In theory
winfriedpep.: yeah, we move to the delicate field legal trust...
jonaswGe0rG, sooo... if one federates with servers which have users which are inside the EU you’re under GDPR?
jonaswGe0rG, sooo... if you federate with servers which have users which are inside the EU you’re under GDPR?
Ge0rGWhat I'd like to know more about is whether we need some explicit legal framework for handing off data, or if this is covered by the user's implicit consent of wanting the message delivered
Ge0rGjonasw: basically, yes.
jonaswneat
jonaswso everything is under GPDR now.
Ge0rGjonasw: as if it wasn't before
jonaswyeah, with "now" I mean "when it takes effect"
Ge0rGwinfried: I suggest we have a look at the "incoming s2s" situation first, and then try to reverse the approach for "outgoing"
winfriedGe0rG: smart!
Ge0rGobviously, with incoming s2s we are already required to be GDPR compliant.
winfriedGe0rG: if you are situated in the EU or if you are targeting EU users
Ge0rGWe receive data via s2s (s2s meta-data, user content, user meta-data), and we are kindly asked to process that data in some way that was implied by the user
winfriedGe0rG: hmmm... my reading up to now was targeting, but that maybe the old legal framework....
jonaswyou can’t block EU users s2s-wise
jonaswbut also you can’t really target EU users s2s-wise
jonaswso I’m like 😕
pep.jonasw, not like it's impossible
Ge0rGwinfried: targeting is implied if you don't exclude them explicitly, AFAIU
Ge0rGwinfried: but back to the topic.
winfriedis diving in his bible
pep.When does a service become "accepting EU users" exactly? Say as an EU citizen I go to a japanese website, with their server located in Japan, there's not GDPR applying is there
pep.(I'm here to ask the dumb questions)
Ge0rGI'd say that processing of received data is covered by Art6 1.f "processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller or by a third party" - the legitimate interest is to deliver the message to the appropriate user
jonaswif LQ1 evaluates to "yes", it’s more tricky than that though
winfriedWe are moving a bit forward and backward trough the topics...
Ge0rGThis means two things basically: a) we are allowed to do everything appropriate to deliver the content; b) we are not allowed to do anything that's not directly required for that
jonaswwinfried, okay, where were we?
Marandaprocessing hints mandatory *coughs*
Ge0rGGDPR hints.
pep.Maranda, we can see for technical details later
winfried1.1c s2s wasn't it?
Ge0rGwinfried: yes please
winfriedincoming and outgoing
winfriedincoming
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winfried- store in roster of peer
Ge0rGWe should cover each one of these:
s2s meta-data (IPs, hostnames, sessions, server logs?) - GDPR probably doesn't apply
user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing)
user content (messages, pubsub, etc.)
MUC history, MUC MAM
Remote components (e.g., roster management)
winfriedGe0rG: yes that was what I was looking for
Ge0rGs2s meta-data: R49 if at all
jonaswuser metadata:
minimal: forwarded to receiving users connections
typical: stored while receiving user is online (to avoid having to send out probes for new resources)
Ge0rGjonasw: subscription requests and roster info is stored
jonaswGe0rG, that’s content though?
jonaswfrom the categories in Q1.1b
pep.(update the wiki I added 1.1c from the minutes)
Ge0rGjonasw: ah, right
jonaswuser content:
minimal: forwarded to receiving users connections if online; storage of roster-related things with account.
typical: minimal + offline-storage if offline or even MAM for undefined period of time for messages
Ge0rGI'm not sure if A in user B's roster is subject to user B's privacy laws, user A's or both'.
jonaswprobably mostly B
winfriedyes
jonaswI can have you in my phone book and you can’t force me to erase that, I think, due to private use.
winfriedbut the transfer to jurisdiction B is a processing
Ge0rGjonasw: but I can get you fined it you upload my phone number to whatsapp.
jonaswGe0rG, yes.
pep.Which is what's happening here
jonaswGe0rG, but the roster is my phone book in this case.
pep.Well not whatsapp
Ge0rGjonasw: so maybe I can also get you fined if you store my JID and name on your server?
jonaswmmm
pep.Ge0rG, so what do you propose? When a user calls for their right to erasure, that's propagated to every other server? And they magically disappear from everybody's roster at the same time?
winfriedno, when I am uploading pii of somebody else to a server without consent from that somebody I can be fined. Not because of that server but because of the uploading
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jonaswsooo..... spammers are in violation of the GDPR?
winfrieds/consent/groud for processing/
jonaswbecause they upload my email adress to some server?
winfriedjonasw: yes
pep.That wouldn't really surprise me
pep.It's not like they weren't already in violation of any other laws
Ge0rGwe have two s2s data specials not yet covered in 1.1c:
- MUC (is that different from plain s2s?)
- remote roster management
jonaswhm, delivering a message is probalby "ground for processing"
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winfriedjonasw: it is needed for delivering a service you have agreed to (or not, in the case of spam)_
jonaswI think for (semi-)anonymous MUCs, we really need to show users a message that the MUC is anonymous and they have to assume that all messages are public?
jonaswFor (semi-)anonymous MUCs, do we need to show users a message that the MUC is anonymous and they have to assume that all messages are public?
pep.What about adding 170 when MAM MUC is enabled
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jonaswbecause we can’t have any type of s2s-consent in that case because we don’t know to which domains the messages may go
jonaswpep., mandatory, IMO
pep.worksforme
pep.I asked something similar on jdev@ not so long ago
pep.And I think maranda also did talk about that
Maranda👌🧝♂️
jonaswthe exact definition is:> Inform occupants that room logging is now enabled
jonaswthe exact definition is:
> Inform occupants that room logging is now enabled
which fits this use-case exactly.
jonasw(note that it does not include "public")
jonasw(we might want to have a different status code for *public* logging)
jonasw(as opposed to members-only MUC MAM access)
Ge0rGjonasw: MAM is subject to the same rules as room access
Ge0rGin theory.
jonaswGe0rG, yes.
MarandaGajim does exactly that for status 170/171 without making dumb distinctions
Ge0rGI wouldn't be surprised if some implementations make MAM access public ;)
winfriedso a possible processing may be "publicising the MUC logs on different channels or to non-members"? (bringing it back to 1.1c)
jonaswwinfried, yes.
MarandaAka just "room logging" enabled/disabled
pep.Nothing prevents a muc owner from changing the member-only policy though, and suddenly everything that's been said before is public
Ge0rGpep.: nothing prevents a muc owner to publish their local log of the MUC in the New York Times
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winfriedmaybe some laws prevent that?
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Ge0rGI would consider that all these deliberate actions by a MUC participant to leak data fall under their respective responsibility
jonaswwinfried, one processing is at least "store the whole conversation on the MUC service"
Ge0rGand not under "s2s data processing"
jonasw+1 Ge0rG
winfried+1
pep.k
Ge0rGso it's "store on the service and make it available to room members"
winfriedand it /may/ be also publishing it
jonaswI’d like to have a status code for that, btw
jonaswbecause that could save us from 9.1 trouble (there’s something about "manifestly made public" in there, and if we can get clients to show "THIS ROOM IS PUBLICLY LOGGED", we’re out of trouble there I think)
jonaswdo we have a technical ToDo list?
winfriedjonasw: not yet ;-)
pep.Can make one
jonaswpep., that’d be great
pep.I can add EULA XEP in there :x
jonaswI wouldn’t act on this right away, but instead keep it a WIP until we figure that we really need it.
jonaswI wouldn’t act on the ToDo list right away, but instead keep it a WIP until we figure that we really need it.
winfried(BTW one of my cats is hunting my phiysical mouse, the other one the cursor on the screen, am a bit distracted)
winfriedjonasw: +1
pep.jonasw, the status code you're talking about is 170 or similar right
jonaswpep., yes
jonaswwinfried, pics or it didn’t happen ;-)
winfriedjonasw: my cats have their privacy, I am not publishing them on the internet!
pep.So.. what do we have atm, 1.1c S2S is split in two,
MarandaAnd attach those to the Meeting Minutes.
Maranda(cat pictures)
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Ge0rGDon't forget remote roster management. It's technically well designed, so no problems there, but we need to mention it
winfriedGe0rG: +1
pep.Ge0rG, what about it
winfriedit is a nice example of privacy by design, but it is a possible processing of the s2s case
winfriedthinking about it, it is also a processing of the c2s case...
winfriedwe need to list it and mention it is covered by explicit consent
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jonaswRRM ist really good, taking a look at it for the first time now
pep.I'm not sure I get all these comments. How is it privacy by design
pep.What changes from normal roster management
jonaswexcept that it has XMPP-technical flaws
jonaswpep., the roster is managed by an entity which may be outside the domain of the user
jonaswread-write
pep.jonasw, yeah I get that, so it's worse possibly
pep.I mean GDPR-speaking
pep.Than normal c2s
jonaswpep., but the entity has to ask permission and it gets only the roster entries related to their own domain, so that’s neat
winfriedit is privacy by design because the spec demands explicit consent
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winfriedI lost my overview over 1.1c
winfriedhave we covered the s2s cases there?
pep.jonasw, I see
pep.just inbound?
pep.And even then I'm not sure
Ge0rGwinfried: I think so
Ge0rGthe difference to c2s is probably that there are different retention times for data, and no explicit consent from the user
Ge0rGoh, there is also the "transport component" use case
jonaswmmm, a whatsapp transport <3
jonaswfor super fubar
Ge0rGIf I register with icq.evildomain.com, it will store/process my ICQ credentials
winfriedGe0rG: that is an interesting one
pep.Isn't that another normal s2s case?
jonaswcredentials, right
pep."We don't know what can happen on the other side"
winfriedpep.: that one is
pep.And they won't get more than what we give them
winfriedbut whatsapptransport.trusteddomain.com is different
jonaswI wonder if we want a way to give consent to the processing done by an s2s domain. then there could be something pubsubby where clients can query which s2s domains the user consented with and show that in the UI. warn the user when sending a message to a non-consented domain with "review the privacy policy" and offer doing the in-band consent thing as per the EULA XEP.
winfriedbecause trusteddomain is transfering it to a third server
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jonaswfwiw, I’m going to head out in four minutes.
pep.How long do you want to go btw?
pep.jonasw, I see value in that, I'm not sure it's not going to be an annoying process though
pep.It's the annoying "yes I agree" that everybody is going to overlook in the end
jonaswcould be simplified in the UX of course, but technically we might need something like that
jonaswand the server could even block stanzas to non-trusted s2s domains in strict deployments.
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winfriedmaybe set a next session? Maybe we should wrap up this one and move on to the interesting stuff....
pep.yep
pep.Date of next?
jonaswfollowing weeks this time won’t work for me
jonasw(I know I’m special with scheduling and I’m sorry)
pep.I can do any
Ge0rGwinfried: actually I'd argue that a remote transport is subject to a direct relationship with the user as a data controller
MarandaCan I make an addition to s2s message processing? If hints are made mandatory that could pose a disclaimer caveat, in which if a user doesn't give explicit consent to treatment by a remote entity and I flagged all messages with "no-store" or "no-permanent-storage" it could be argued the responsibility falls directly on the 3rd uncompliant party
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pep.Tomorrow? Wed 12:30 or 13:30CEST? (like before)
MarandaBecause that'll be an impeding problem for sure
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jonaswpep., tomorrow is Tue in my calendar
jonaswWed won’t work for me
pep.jonasw, yes it was two questions :p
jonaswI’d prefer the time we did today actually, I can arrange that any day except mondays.
winfriedboth work for me
pep.If same time, I can't do Tue/Thu
jonasw(and wednesdays, sorry)
jonaswbut 12:30 CEST also works, except on wednesdays
pep.Tue 12:30CEST then?
jonaswwfm
winfriedwfm
Ge0rGwfm
jonasw\o/
pep.*bang*
jonaswokay, gotta head out, see you folks
winfriedcu!
winfriedthanks
pep.I need my coffee now
pep.You guys caught me early
winfriedpep.: :-D
winfriedpep.: are you taking notes/logs again? maybe coordinate who puts them in the Wiki
pep.I'll try to come up with the minutes before noon
pep.If you can put that on the wiki that'd be great :p
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winfriedI'll try, won't be home from work meetings till 0:30 today, but I will have some time in trains...
Ge0rGtrains. The place where you can work on the really important things, while telling your employer that you were too tired to do the after-meeting reports.
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winfriedGe0rG: watch out, this MUC has a public log :-D
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daniel> trains. The place where you can work on the really important things, while telling your employer that you were too tired to do the after-meeting reports.
Trains. Those things that don't run if there is a signal failure. What ever that means. A rat bit through a cable maybe? Because apparently something as important as signals doesn't have redundancy
Ge0rGwinfried: my employer isn't paying overtime. Sometimes I have days when I need to get out of bed at 4AM, have some 12hrs of train time with a business meeting in the middle. They can't expect me to work 16hrs ;)
Ge0rGdaniel: the most frequent cause of delay at Deutsche Bahn is copper theft, I've heard.
winfrieddaniel Ge0rG here in the netherlands it is / was a major cause for delays too. They do have more theft-proof infrastructure nowadays
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Ge0rGwinfried: do you have any news regarding the 112 app?
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MarandaAnd from my point of view, after glancing at it, GDPR is made to "make it impossibile" for complex decentralised environments to exist, so whatever will be done here will be for naught beside that when a user registers he'll get a message stating "do you give consent to treatment of your data by third parties", "I give consent" == s2s enabled, else s2s disabled.
MarandaFin.
Ge0rGMaranda: your point of view is cynically pessimistic.
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Ge0rGLike with the cookie directive. The intention was to inform users and to allow them to opt out. Then it was perverted by the "content providers" to blame the EU
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MarandaGe0rG: too bad that it looks to me that for what we could ever attempt to do to be compliant, due to the nature of xmpp we could never fully be.
MarandaBut we will see as usual
winfriedGe0rG: yes, I have the interview done and a concept-blog, still working on the whitepaper. They have to check with their security persons I don't publicise any confidental information before I can show you the results
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Ge0rGwinfried: I'm a security person. I can do a closed-group review ;)
winfriedGe0rG: :-D
winfriedGe0rG: I got a fascinating insight in the world of Belgian organisation and security. I can already reveal the organisation operating *all* of the telecom infrastructure in Belgium has more firewalls then employees ;-)
winfried(all of the governmental telecom infrastructure)
Ge0rGwinfried: that sounds like much better data hygiene than T-Mobile Austria
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jonasw> winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime.
jonasw> winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime. […] have some 12hrs of train time with a business meeting in the middle.
Ge0rG, you’re not good at advertising.
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Ge0rGjonasw: my employer will gladly pay for the hotel room so you can arrive on the day before and have a pleasant day on site. I just prefer to sleep in my own bed.
jonaswI hate hotels, exactly.
KevI often take my own pillow with me when I go to the office, if I'm driving (not so much with carrying it on the train).
Ge0rGI don't hate them. I just love to sleep at home
jonaswGe0rG, yeah, that’s what i meant.
jonaswalso see what I wrote in the other muc.
Ge0rGI'm still catching up with last night.
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jonaswimagines Ge0rG MAM-syncing into his head
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winfriedGe0rG: I was pretty impressed with the data infrastructure they are using, they even build a (rudimentary) application firewall for XMPP!
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jonaswdoes conversations get consent from the user for using google cloud push? :)
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jonaswokay, so since I have merge powers, I need advice on what to do with this:
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
jonaswI was actually happy that pidgin dropped off the list and was silently hoping that it wouldn’t re-appear.
jonaswbut apparently that didn’t happen
jonaswso what to do now?
jonaswpossibly a question for board
Ge0rGjonasw: the right way would be for the Board or some other Official Entity to say "no" to this request. The loophole workaround would be to reject the PR until it's vouched for by an identified pidgin developer
jonaswGe0rG, maybe you should add your "ceterum pidgin delendam esse" to board agenda instead of council ;)
Ge0rGjonasw: I don't have the power to add things to Board's agenda
Ge0rGjonasw: and I don't have the karma either. Whatever I wanted from Board so far was vetoed.
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jonaswGe0rG, ask Guus or MattJ to add "Vote for elimination of all pidgin references from xmpp.org" to it :)
jonaswGe0rG, the laws of probability say that this time it’ll work!!k
jonaswGe0rG, the laws of probability say that this time it’ll work!!1
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flowGe0rG, I note that there is a carbons plugin for libpurple: https://github.com/gkdr/carbons
jonaswplugins for libpurple are always good.
jonaswthey rarely break anything or introduce security issues or something like that.
Ge0rGflow: do you want to explain to my aunt how to install it?
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KevBTW, I think the easiest way to (potentially) resolve the Pidgin thing is to ask the project if they mind not being listed.
KevIf they say "Yeah, that's fine, it's not very current", there's no need to make difficult decisions.
jonaswKev, they made a release a few weeks ago
KevDoes that contradict anything I said? :)
jonaswdunno
jonaswI’m not awake.
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Ge0rGKev: the easiest way is to require somebody from the project to raise their voice in that PR.
Ge0rGKev: which is even less work than asking them, and which is what I implied in my PR comment and described above as a "loophole"
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MarandaSo, dead-end for GDPR is.. 25th May again?
jonaswyeah
jonaswtowel day
MarandaAnd I see Ge0rG with an avatar feels strange compared to the usual "G"
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Marandajonasw, ok I suppose I'll go with my cynical, pessimistic idea, until I see more definite developments.
Maranda(which I do not)
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Ge0rGMaranda: I suppose I need to restart prosody to get rid of it.
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MarandaGe0rG: oh?
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Ge0rGDave Cridland: I'd like to put up "kill GC1.0" onto the Council agenda for this week. I've collected some numbers, and I'll write a mail if I manage somehow.
Ge0rGI'm also sure there was some other thing I promised / intended to PR.
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Ge0rGhttps://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/hours-after-zuck-deletion-scandal-facebook-announces-new-unsend-feature/ - this totally triggers the GDPR
Ge0rG"You can't delete sent or received messages from someone else's device." -- unless you are Mark Zuckerberg.
Andrew NenakhovWhat's next, unsend email? 😂
Andrew NenakhovI always thought that features like last message correction are just silly
Andrew NenakhovGe0rG,
> Message recall is available after you click Send and is available only if the recipient has an Exchange account within the same organization.
Not really working in federated environment
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: tough luck.
ZashI motion that we all get ice cream!
(everyone says +1)
/correct I motion that we do evil things!
MarandaGe0rG, who knows maybe they'll turn into something else, or kill me, or both.
waqasI haven't had ice cream in days…
Andrew NenakhovI get a feeling that xsf has entered a steep decline
Ge0rGI have a fridge full of ice cream at my old home, and no sensible logistic way to get it into the new home.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: the xsf MUC is not representative of the XSF.
waqasGe0rG: "sensible"
MarandaGe0rG, it's not?
Maranda:O
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: the only decline the XSF is facing is that of available time of its members.
MarandaDisclaimer 😚 ™
Maranda:P
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jonaswI just came back from having ice cream.
jonaswthat’s relevant, r ight?
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Zash/topic Ice Cream
jonaswthat’s relevant, right?
Ge0rGLuckily there is no XMPP off-topic MUC.
jonasw/topic Chips
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Ge0rGDamn, I'm hungry. Only had some waffles for breakfast and no lunch. Time to make a break
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Marandapoked out a "pessimistical" mod_gdpr.
Marandacommits.
moparisthebestwhat does it do?
moparisthebestguess I could just peruse code...
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Marandafor now just disables s2s if you don't agree to conditions and 3rd party treatment of your data.
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lovetoxif a XEP says stuff like : Given the foregoing discussion, it is evident that an entity could receive any combination of iq:register, x:data, and x:oob namespaces
lovetoxthen i know im in for a lot of fun
moparisthebestwhat are email providers doing with their identical S2S problem?
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Marandahttps://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/6044add55d8acfef86f4210ceae27cd6ca178a3f/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua --> completely untested, though it should be portable to Prosody easily enough.
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jonaswmoparisthebest, nobody knows
jonaswmoparisthebest, but the expectations might be different for email which might be relevant for law stuff
moparisthebestwhy would expectations matter? they are 100% identical as far as I can tell
jonaswmoparisthebest, I’m not sure. people might not expect their IM to be stored indefinitely on some server. for mail, this might be different.
moparisthebestwhy? maybe they think everyone uses pop3 and has the 'delete from server' box ticked?
Zashmoparisthebest: wasn't the box for "don't delete from server"?
moparisthebestdepends on the client I guess :)
moparisthebestI'm just saying from a technical perspective, with regard to s2s issue, email and xmpp are identical, and since email is far more widely used by much bigger companies, I feel like we should just see what they are doing
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MarandaIdentical me... thinks not.
MarandaComparing mail data with a xmpp s2s stream is weird at best.
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MarandaOne it's just a singler envelope the other... is... a stream? With potentially much more data passing by.
Marandamutters says the word.
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moparisthebestMaranda, sorry, how is it not identical?
MarandaI just said.
moparisthebestyou send individual messages to a federated server
moparisthebestthey may or may not keep them
moparisthebestthe 'potentially more data' seems totally wrong too
MarandaYou just send individual messages? Oh rly?
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moparisthebesthow often do you send/recieve xmpp messages with 25mb attachments sent with bob or whatever :P
jonaswI tend to agree that they’re pretty much identical regarding the data which passes.
moparisthebestthat happens regularly with email
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MarandaI repeat "You just send individual messages? Oh rly?"
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moparisthebestyes, both email and xmpp just send individual messages, right?
MarandaHmmm nay, but okay.
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moparisthebestMaranda, how do you think they are different? because xmpp often sends multiple messages over a single connection?
moparisthebestbecause smtp does that too, and so does imap, pop3, etc
moparisthebestthat's 2 messages I guess, still not getting the point
Maranda.
SamWhitedPlease try to explain with words and not just examples, because I don't understand what you mean either.
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MarandaI don't think I have to explain XMPP (says even just XMPP) isn't just about messages, and you don't send exactly just messages actually you send much more of the other two.
MarandaAnd there's a lot of data in *those two*
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moparisthebestwhen you boil it all down though, it's just message passing
Marandaif you say so.
moparisthebestare you saying you also send presence and things?
moparisthebesthow is that different than an email like 'hey, I started work today' or whatever
MarandaMaybe I don't operate the sending directly which poses *much* of a difference compared to e-mail since those are completely (or almost) abstracted from users UI wise
KevI think when you're potentially talking about clients broadcasting your current location to all of your contacts, or whether you're WFH or in the office, that *is* a different use case than email.
Marandaand still for GDPR we have to take that data/meta-data in account
Marandaso if you keep saying xmpp is like e-mail okay.
moparisthebestok, so you are saying extra types of data get sent with xmpp without user intervention than email?
moparisthebest*that's* an argument I can follow
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moparisthebeststill, I believe normal message sending should be the same as email, so we could copy email providers for that, and maybe your mod_gdpr could just filter everything but normal messages or something?
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jonasw... except that lots of stuff doesn’t work with only normal messages.
jonaswlike OMEMO.
Marandamod_gdpr blocks everything going s2s, before user consented to the agreement and mainly 3rd parties treatment of his data passing by s2s.
jonaswhow does the user consent, and which agreement?
moparisthebestyep, but perhaps you can sort some things out to what leaks (meta)data or not
Ge0rGMaranda: you need to gain consent for each individual s2s domain, and link to their respective data privacy policy.
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moparisthebestthat seems utterly impossible Ge0rG
MarandaGe0rG, do I? Me thinks that the above is legally valid.
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Ge0rGAlso, I don't understand how email and xmpp are different either, from a data protection / data retention point of view
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jonasw.oO(plot twist: user is currently negotiating for a power exchange relationship and replies with "I consent" to the wrong message.)
jonaswMaranda, I don’t think that works either. you need to make the user aware of the specific data and metadata which may be sent to the remote domain.
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jonaswusers might not be aware that the timestamp of their last online presence would be shared for exampale
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MarandaGe0rG, it's implicit that if a from capuleti.is user chooses to have a contact to romeo.is then whatever data gets shared with romeo.is is *his/her sole* responsibility and that the data going to romeo.is will be treated by romeo.is
Marandajonasw, that is already done by the ToS
jonaswMaranda, which ToS?
MarandaThe one which I'll add options to add you can't cover everything In-Band, else I need to send a never ending wall.
MarandaThe one which I'll add options to add you can't cover everything In-Band, else I need to send a never ending wall of text.
jonaswthat’s why we were discussing the EULA XEP
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Marandajonasw, which brings to the problem good luck getting every implementation and expecially every server federating to compliant by the 25th.
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moparisthebestyea that's really insane
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moparisthebestshouldn't it, at most, be an explanation of federation?
moparisthebest(if you send something to bob@example.org refer to example.org for how they manage your data)
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moparisthebestagain, what are email providers doing? they won't be doing 'federated eulas' I can almost guarantee
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jonaswmoparisthebest, true, but they may be gambling on the fact that nobody is going to risk to burn down all of email with a lawsuit.
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MarandaProblem is that the deadline is too near now we should have moved as soon as GDPR got out in 2016 imho
jonaswyeah
moparisthebestthat's a fine bet for my person email, but gmail/hotmail surely would just have to pay germany a few trillion dollars or something
Marandadidn't even know about it before just recently.
moparisthebestand they've surely had lawyers on this for years?
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moparisthebestfederated EULAs sound like a friggin nightmare too
moparisthebest"XMPP sucks so bad, I need a lawyer every time I have to add a new contact"
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ZashWhat about plain ol' IP routing?
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Marandabut still as soon as there's a draft of "EULA" xep I'll link to that jonasw (obviously)
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moparisthebestthat's true Zash , every IP/port combo needs another EULA, also from every switch/router along the way, right?
ZashYes
jonaswZash, yeah
moparisthebestI think even the concept of a EULA xep is a terrible idea for the above reason
jonaswI was thinking about that too during the last meeting. I wonder if we’re colossally missing something here.
jonaswmoparisthebest, fundamentally, the EULA XEP was meant not for federation but for in-band registration
moparisthebestdoes anyone know anyone that works at gmail or hotmail or something?
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jonaswunfortunately not
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moparisthebestjonasw, ah well for in-band registration it's a good idea, it's just a terrible idea for federation
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Marandaan EULA xep could not need implementation
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Marandaif it's just a descriptive xep
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Marandalike what data types are there, how to act in case of data transiting from a to b, who to contact in that case etc.
Marandalike what data types are there, how to act in case of data transiting from a to b, who to contact in that case, who is responsible of what when etc.
Marandathere's a fair amount of documents like that XEP wise
jonaswMaranda, the idea was to have an additional IQ exchange before/during registration, where the key points of a GDPR-EULA (e.g. retention times, data which is persisted/not persisted ,…) is presented as structured data (XML). this allows clients to format the key points neatly. in addition, the full terms can be provided via one or more URLs.
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moparisthebestand then you've made the protocol user-hostile for what some non-lawyers think some lawyers wrote in a jurisdiction that controls a small fraction of the internet
moparisthebestsounds like a terrible plan
MarandaWhich is good if the deadend wasn't in a month and a half
jonaswmoparisthebest, how is that user-hostile?
MarandaOr less
jonaswI think being aware of what the service does with your data is very user-friendly.
moparisthebestjonasw, "XMPP sucks so bad, I need a lawyer every time I have to add a new contact"
jonaswI am not talking about federation, moparisthebest.
moparisthebest"with whatscrap I just type in a contact and start chatting"
MarandaSo at the very least we should have a document to link at, me thinks
moparisthebestwell again, for user registration I totally agree
SamWhitedFWIW, XEP-0389 was designed with EULAs in mind. You could probably implement it already with that.
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jonaswmoparisthebest, I am not talking about federation.
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MarandaNo time for xep-0389
moparisthebestok, then I think it's a good idea
MarandaI feel
moparisthebestI just really don't want federation crippled due to some legislators with a superiority complex, and a likely wrong reading of the law by non-lawyers
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MarandaWell I don't have 200k
Maranda😎
moparisthebesttry voting for better people, or move :)
moparisthebestI mean we aren't writing code to cripple XMPP to china or russian standards
jonaswmoparisthebest, I like the legislation actually.
MarandaAll I want as a server operator is at least a blanket covering most of my ass
moparisthebestwhy write code to cripple XMPP to EU standards
MarandaThat's all we need in the immediate time anyways
MarandaBecause as I redundantly said: there's not much time left
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Marandamoparisthebest, we need to get informative documentation done first, the most problematic bits are the data types descriptions, behaviour and garden-to-garden transits
moparisthebestnot sure exactly what you mean, but are you still just talking about registration?
moparisthebestin general when I've had to present lawyer-stuff to users, they like to lay stuff out themselves, and I always end up providing text as written
moparisthebestjust a giant wall of text...
MarandaNo, I said it anything protocol dependant wont see the light by the 25th
moparisthebestjust turn off IBR and make them sign up with a web page?
moparisthebestthe free world can continue to support IBR
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MarandaBecause beside the servers, there's clients and the "Pidgin" effect
pep.moparisthebest: make them sign up what with a web pave
pep.Page*
pep.Please do provide input during the meetings if you have insight
MarandaThe registration method is irrelevant we need documentation, and stuff to add to single service agreements
MarandaIn the mean time
pep.moparisthebest: and it's not just to new users
moparisthebestwell, web page registration lets you display a proper terms of service, and record them agreeing to it?
pep.Yeah but what goes into the EULA
Marandamoparisthebest, yes
pep.That's the whole poiny
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moparisthebestpep., ask your lawyer
pep.Point
MarandaBut we need to know what to add to the service agreements...
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moparisthebesthopefully just explaining how it works would be good enough, but who knows, IANAL
MarandaAnd if there's a descriptive EULA xep at least we can link that
pep.Well we're trying to see if we can figure parts of it by ourselves. Ultimately yes, we'll ask lawyers
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pep.And then try to provide templates for operators out there, with the usual disclaimers
moparisthebestif you are in the 'writing code to solve it' phase then you are too far, should have already asked a lawyer
pep.We're not
moparisthebestsome people are :) https://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/master/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua
MarandaThat's a draft
Zash> The software is provided "as is", without warranty of any kind etc...
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MarandaAnd it's very "user friendly" as it's not protocol dependant
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Maranda(problem is the relevant bits to add there)
MarandaZash, if it was that easy
MarandaApparently it's not
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Marandamoparisthebest, but yes essentially that module should cover the edgy cases, in where if users stay in your garden it's "easy". When they get outside it's troubles they wrote the regulation specifically that way
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Maranda(And they'll get prompted the first time they try to cross the wall)
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pep.What really annoys/confuses me, is that everybody talks about companies when this is going to reach a lot more than that
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moparisthebestthat's the problem, they seem to have written the legislation to specifically target walled gardens like facebook/whatsapp etc
moparisthebestand it does a good job at that
moparisthebestbut they totally ignored federated systems, and it seems to almost outright ban federated systems
moparisthebestwhich, ignoring xmpp is something I could see legislators doing, ignoring email is not
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moparisthebestexcept they probably think 'email' and 'gmail' are the same thing...
ZashHas anyone reached out to those involved in drafting this and asked "how does this relate to email?"
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ZashIIRC they used Outlook (with web thing)
ZashOWA?
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ZashThe FOSS-friendly people I stayed with were developing something to make it usable with Thunderbird
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moparisthebestdavmail is what I used to use for that
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Ge0rGThe new CLOUD Act allows US agencies to obtain data hosted in Europe. I wonder how many days it will take for Russia to create a comparable legal framework.
lovetoxbut i read EU wanted to do this frist
lovetoxbut i read EU wanted to do this first
lovetoxget data stored in US
lovetoxso everybody gets all the data :)
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moparisthebestthe solution is for everyone to run their own server in their house lovetox :P
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Zash\o/
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lovetoxim already using no smartphone, facebook, i just have to get rid of gmail somehow
lovetoxthen im underground
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moparisthebestlovetox, I cut the gmail cord in 2013, just setup postfix/dovecot on your house-server
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moparisthebestyou can still have gmail forward mails to your new address, and you can have postfix send outgoing mails from your gmail through gmail's servers until you have everything fully migrated
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lovetoxim have my own domain, but i fear spam a bit
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lovetoxnothing goes over google spam filter
moparisthebestit's not that bad, spamassasin+amavis
moparisthebestthunderbird pretty much always gets whatever leaks through those
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lovetoxhow nice would it be if we had all pgp encryption on email
lovetoxgoogle announced some kind of plugin for gamil years ago
moparisthebestit's not as easy as setting up an xmpp server, there are more parts, and they tend to be crustier
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moparisthebestbut you only have to do it once
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Marandawell it's tricky to be spam proof, but not impossible.
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Maranda(for e-mail)
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lovetoxbut with email is like, even if you host youself, 40% of all your mails are sent to gmail adresses anyway
lovetoxso they still get all emails
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Marandahmmm lovetox
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pep.lovetox: that's true, though if we say that we might as well give up already
pep.Even for xmpp
lovetoxwhy google dropped xmpp support :D
lovetoxwe are save here
ZashExtensible Mango and Potato Planters
pep.I mean it's not just true for email but for lots of things.. If I thought it wasn't worth setting up my own mail service because "40% goes through Google anyway", I think giving up on life wouldn't be really far ahead :x
pep.Lots of things go through Google, Facebook and whatnots
pep.Zash: I'm going to signup for this giant meteor party I think
ZashI'm not running my own email to keep Google from seeing my emails. I'm doing it so that I don't have to care about some provider shutting down.
lovetoxi would run my own server if it was just my email
ZashTo have control over my own ifrastructure. To not have to wait for someone else to fix my problems.
lovetoxbut whole family uses the same domain
pep.Zash: sure I'm not saying that's why I do it, or the only reason
lovetoxthey will not understand if it doesnt work because i fucked it up again ^^
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ZashMy mom uses my email server. Most recent issue she had was some unexplained issue that I'm going to write off as "Android weirdness"
Zash"It doesn't work" - I try, it works fine.
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MarandaZash, that's not Android Weirdness, it's called "Mom Weirdness"
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MarandaIt's common to every mom (mine too), with the exact same symptoms: "It doesn't work" - I arrive, try it works fine.
Maranda:P
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pep.Not sure a CC from members to operators is great, they can't all reply otherwise