XSF Discussion - 2018-04-09

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  229. edhelas https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/07/rss-is-undead/
  230. edhelas > I think the solution is a set of improvements. RSS as a protocol needs to be expanded so that it can offer more data around prioritization as well as other signals critical to making the technology more effective at the reader layer. This isn’t just about updating the protocol, but also about updating all of the content management systems that publish an RSS feed to take advantage of those features.
  231. edhelas Pubsub :-° ?
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  235. Andrew Nenakhov I've read that article in my RSS reader. To me, RSS is pretty much alive.
  236. edhelas Andrew Nenakhov don't wanna use Pubsub :D Movim is my news reader B-)
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  242. edhelas https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/TechCrunch
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  256. jonasw GDPR meeting in 5
  257. jonasw according to my clock and calendar at least
  258. winfried jonasw: according to mine too ;-)
  259. jonasw neat.
  260. jonasw pep., Ge0rG, you there?
  261. Ge0rG jonasw: kind of
  262. Ge0rG I fixed my poezio, but this is still the worst monday I've had this year
  263. jonasw yet.
  264. Ge0rG right.
  265. jonasw Ge0rG, set up a disk quota for your borg things so that they can’t eat all the disk space.
  266. jonasw disk quotas aren’t deep magic
  267. Ge0rG jonasw: good point. But then I couldn't prune the old backups any more because pruning would exceed the quota
  268. jonasw also allows you to disable/unset the quota while pruning when you need that
  269. jonasw it’s all a matter of invoking edquota and increasing the limit temporarily :)
  270. Ge0rG I didn't even anticipate the backups to grow that large.
  271. jonasw or maybe use that cuteborg alpha software which schedules prunes automatically. (shameless plug)
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  273. pep. My computer has decided to be angry at me this morning, should be here soon
  274. jonasw okay, now I’m getting wary, why hasn’t any of my stuff failed today.
  275. winfried bad digital karma today, what did we do to our computers to make them so upset?
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  277. pep. made it!
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  279. jonasw \o/
  280. jonasw I’m not up for chairing or anything, having mild headache.
  281. winfried bangs a gavel and looks around in mild bewilderment, what to do now?
  282. pep. !
  283. winfried Would it be ok, to slowly progress through the list at the wiki?
  284. jonasw seems good
  285. pep. Ah I haven't updated with last week's
  286. Ge0rG Yes please
  287. winfried Ge0rG: you mentioned there are discussions about ip-adresses being pii or not, maybe we should settle that one first
  288. Ge0rG winfried: I don't think we should.
  289. jonasw I don’t think that’s useful.
  290. pep. Can _we_ settle anything?
  291. winfried ok, we don't settle it ;-)
  292. Ge0rG winfried: in our context it's best to consider them as PII
  293. jonasw first, what pep. says, lots of laywers have been fighting over that already before the GDPR, and second I think that would let us lose ourselves in details.
  294. Ge0rG winfried: my point was just to show the ambiguity of the legal framework
  295. winfried Ge0rG: clear and good course of action
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  297. winfried Q1.1d, do we dig into that one further?
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  299. Ge0rG For the logs and newcomers: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
  300. Ge0rG winfried: I think we weren't done with 1.1c for s2s
  301. winfried ok, 1,1c it will be
  302. pep. I want s/Archiving/user content/ on the notes to make it just like the others
  303. pep. I would s/Archiving/user content/ on the notes to make it just like the others
  304. Ge0rG Yes please
  305. winfried +1
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  310. Ge0rG We are also lacking logs of 1.1b s2s in the wiki
  311. pep. yes, let me put last week's in there
  312. Ge0rG Maybe somebody could paste from the minutes
  313. Ge0rG So that we can proceed from there
  314. winfried maybe it is good to make clear: transfer itself is a processing, but needs explicitation about what data is transfered, what processing is done on the other side and with what purpose...
  315. jonasw can we know the processing on the other side, really?
  316. jonasw since there’s no contract or something which would be binding for the other side.
  317. pep. I don't think we can
  318. jonasw they could store the message forever even without advertising MAM
  319. pep. I think we'd best assume the worst once the messages are gone over s2s
  320. jonasw yes. the question is: how do we tell the users?
  321. pep. Just as I did? :/
  322. winfried maybe we can define a xep & service discovery that just says: this server keeps to these rules....
  323. jonasw and how do we tell the users in a way that they can give consent properly, and don’t wander off to silo services?
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  325. jonasw winfried, hmm, you mean the GDPR-policy-XEP pep. wanted to write for c2s could be used for s2s too?
  326. jonasw interesting.
  327. jonasw question is, would a user still have to consent for each remote domain?
  328. pep. Also, I trust my own server, I'm not sure I trust many others
  329. Ge0rG jonasw: I tend to slightly disagree
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  332. winfried jonasw: think that in many cases it does't, but it is our task to find out
  333. jonasw Ge0rG, with what exactly? I think I mostly asked questions at this point :D
  334. Ge0rG as winfried said last time, this is handing off of data to another controller. The other controller is also bound by GDPR rules, so they can't just do anything they want with the data. In theory
  335. winfried pep.: yeah, we move to the delicate field legal trust...
  336. jonasw Ge0rG, sooo... if one federates with servers which have users which are inside the EU you’re under GDPR?
  337. jonasw Ge0rG, sooo... if you federate with servers which have users which are inside the EU you’re under GDPR?
  338. Ge0rG What I'd like to know more about is whether we need some explicit legal framework for handing off data, or if this is covered by the user's implicit consent of wanting the message delivered
  339. Ge0rG jonasw: basically, yes.
  340. jonasw neat
  341. jonasw so everything is under GPDR now.
  342. Ge0rG jonasw: as if it wasn't before
  343. jonasw yeah, with "now" I mean "when it takes effect"
  344. Ge0rG winfried: I suggest we have a look at the "incoming s2s" situation first, and then try to reverse the approach for "outgoing"
  345. winfried Ge0rG: smart!
  346. Ge0rG obviously, with incoming s2s we are already required to be GDPR compliant.
  347. winfried Ge0rG: if you are situated in the EU or if you are targeting EU users
  348. Ge0rG We receive data via s2s (s2s meta-data, user content, user meta-data), and we are kindly asked to process that data in some way that was implied by the user
  349. Ge0rG winfried: s/targeting/not explicitly blocking/ ;)
  350. winfried Ge0rG: hmmm... my reading up to now was targeting, but that maybe the old legal framework....
  351. jonasw you can’t block EU users s2s-wise
  352. jonasw but also you can’t really target EU users s2s-wise
  353. jonasw so I’m like 😕
  354. pep. jonasw, not like it's impossible
  355. Ge0rG winfried: targeting is implied if you don't exclude them explicitly, AFAIU
  356. Ge0rG winfried: but back to the topic.
  357. winfried is diving in his bible
  358. pep. When does a service become "accepting EU users" exactly? Say as an EU citizen I go to a japanese website, with their server located in Japan, there's not GDPR applying is there
  359. pep. (I'm here to ask the dumb questions)
  360. Ge0rG I'd say that processing of received data is covered by Art6 1.f "processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller or by a third party" - the legitimate interest is to deliver the message to the appropriate user
  361. jonasw if LQ1 evaluates to "yes", it’s more tricky than that though
  362. winfried We are moving a bit forward and backward trough the topics...
  363. Ge0rG This means two things basically: a) we are allowed to do everything appropriate to deliver the content; b) we are not allowed to do anything that's not directly required for that
  364. jonasw winfried, okay, where were we?
  365. Maranda processing hints mandatory *coughs*
  366. Ge0rG GDPR hints.
  367. pep. Maranda, we can see for technical details later
  368. winfried 1.1c s2s wasn't it?
  369. Ge0rG winfried: yes please
  370. winfried incoming and outgoing
  371. winfried incoming
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  374. winfried - store in roster of peer
  375. Ge0rG We should cover each one of these: s2s meta-data (IPs, hostnames, sessions, server logs?) - GDPR probably doesn't apply user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing) user content (messages, pubsub, etc.) MUC history, MUC MAM Remote components (e.g., roster management)
  376. winfried Ge0rG: yes that was what I was looking for
  377. Ge0rG s2s meta-data: R49 if at all
  378. jonasw user metadata: minimal: forwarded to receiving users connections typical: stored while receiving user is online (to avoid having to send out probes for new resources)
  379. Ge0rG jonasw: subscription requests and roster info is stored
  380. jonasw Ge0rG, that’s content though?
  381. jonasw from the categories in Q1.1b
  382. pep. (update the wiki I added 1.1c from the minutes)
  383. Ge0rG jonasw: ah, right
  384. jonasw user content: minimal: forwarded to receiving users connections if online; storage of roster-related things with account. typical: minimal + offline-storage if offline or even MAM for undefined period of time for messages
  385. Ge0rG I'm not sure if A in user B's roster is subject to user B's privacy laws, user A's or both'.
  386. jonasw probably mostly B
  387. winfried yes
  388. jonasw I can have you in my phone book and you can’t force me to erase that, I think, due to private use.
  389. winfried but the transfer to jurisdiction B is a processing
  390. Ge0rG jonasw: but I can get you fined it you upload my phone number to whatsapp.
  391. jonasw Ge0rG, yes.
  392. pep. Which is what's happening here
  393. jonasw Ge0rG, but the roster is my phone book in this case.
  394. pep. Well not whatsapp
  395. Ge0rG jonasw: so maybe I can also get you fined if you store my JID and name on your server?
  396. jonasw mmm
  397. pep. Ge0rG, so what do you propose? When a user calls for their right to erasure, that's propagated to every other server? And they magically disappear from everybody's roster at the same time?
  398. winfried no, when I am uploading pii of somebody else to a server without consent from that somebody I can be fined. Not because of that server but because of the uploading
  399. ralphm has joined
  400. jonasw sooo..... spammers are in violation of the GDPR?
  401. winfried s/consent/groud for processing/
  402. jonasw because they upload my email adress to some server?
  403. winfried jonasw: yes
  404. pep. That wouldn't really surprise me
  405. pep. It's not like they weren't already in violation of any other laws
  406. Ge0rG we have two s2s data specials not yet covered in 1.1c: - MUC (is that different from plain s2s?) - remote roster management
  407. jonasw hm, delivering a message is probalby "ground for processing"
  408. Dave Cridland has left
  409. winfried jonasw: it is needed for delivering a service you have agreed to (or not, in the case of spam)_
  410. jonasw I think for (semi-)anonymous MUCs, we really need to show users a message that the MUC is anonymous and they have to assume that all messages are public?
  411. jonasw For (semi-)anonymous MUCs, do we need to show users a message that the MUC is anonymous and they have to assume that all messages are public?
  412. pep. What about adding 170 when MAM MUC is enabled
  413. Dave Cridland has left
  414. jonasw because we can’t have any type of s2s-consent in that case because we don’t know to which domains the messages may go
  415. jonasw pep., mandatory, IMO
  416. pep. worksforme
  417. pep. I asked something similar on jdev@ not so long ago
  418. pep. And I think maranda also did talk about that
  419. Maranda 👌🧝‍♂️
  420. jonasw the exact definition is:> Inform occupants that room logging is now enabled
  421. jonasw the exact definition is: > Inform occupants that room logging is now enabled which fits this use-case exactly.
  422. jonasw (note that it does not include "public")
  423. jonasw (we might want to have a different status code for *public* logging)
  424. jonasw (as opposed to members-only MUC MAM access)
  425. Ge0rG jonasw: MAM is subject to the same rules as room access
  426. Ge0rG in theory.
  427. jonasw Ge0rG, yes.
  428. Maranda Gajim does exactly that for status 170/171 without making dumb distinctions
  429. Ge0rG I wouldn't be surprised if some implementations make MAM access public ;)
  430. winfried so a possible processing may be "publicising the MUC logs on different channels or to non-members"? (bringing it back to 1.1c)
  431. jonasw winfried, yes.
  432. Maranda Aka just "room logging" enabled/disabled
  433. pep. Nothing prevents a muc owner from changing the member-only policy though, and suddenly everything that's been said before is public
  434. Ge0rG pep.: nothing prevents a muc owner to publish their local log of the MUC in the New York Times
  435. vanitasvitae has left
  436. winfried maybe some laws prevent that?
  437. vanitasvitae has joined
  438. Ge0rG I would consider that all these deliberate actions by a MUC participant to leak data fall under their respective responsibility
  439. jonasw winfried, one processing is at least "store the whole conversation on the MUC service"
  440. Ge0rG and not under "s2s data processing"
  441. jonasw +1 Ge0rG
  442. winfried +1
  443. pep. k
  444. Ge0rG so it's "store on the service and make it available to room members"
  445. winfried and it /may/ be also publishing it
  446. jonasw I’d like to have a status code for that, btw
  447. jonasw because that could save us from 9.1 trouble (there’s something about "manifestly made public" in there, and if we can get clients to show "THIS ROOM IS PUBLICLY LOGGED", we’re out of trouble there I think)
  448. jonasw do we have a technical ToDo list?
  449. winfried jonasw: not yet ;-)
  450. pep. Can make one
  451. jonasw pep., that’d be great
  452. pep. I can add EULA XEP in there :x
  453. jonasw I wouldn’t act on this right away, but instead keep it a WIP until we figure that we really need it.
  454. jonasw I wouldn’t act on the ToDo list right away, but instead keep it a WIP until we figure that we really need it.
  455. winfried (BTW one of my cats is hunting my phiysical mouse, the other one the cursor on the screen, am a bit distracted)
  456. winfried jonasw: +1
  457. pep. jonasw, the status code you're talking about is 170 or similar right
  458. jonasw pep., yes
  459. jonasw winfried, pics or it didn’t happen ;-)
  460. winfried jonasw: my cats have their privacy, I am not publishing them on the internet!
  461. pep. So.. what do we have atm, 1.1c S2S is split in two,
  462. Maranda And attach those to the Meeting Minutes.
  463. Maranda (cat pictures)
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  465. Ge0rG Don't forget remote roster management. It's technically well designed, so no problems there, but we need to mention it
  466. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  467. pep. Ge0rG, what about it
  468. winfried it is a nice example of privacy by design, but it is a possible processing of the s2s case
  469. winfried thinking about it, it is also a processing of the c2s case...
  470. winfried we need to list it and mention it is covered by explicit consent
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  472. jonasw RRM ist really good, taking a look at it for the first time now
  473. pep. I'm not sure I get all these comments. How is it privacy by design
  474. pep. What changes from normal roster management
  475. jonasw except that it has XMPP-technical flaws
  476. jonasw pep., the roster is managed by an entity which may be outside the domain of the user
  477. jonasw read-write
  478. pep. jonasw, yeah I get that, so it's worse possibly
  479. pep. I mean GDPR-speaking
  480. pep. Than normal c2s
  481. jonasw pep., but the entity has to ask permission and it gets only the roster entries related to their own domain, so that’s neat
  482. winfried it is privacy by design because the spec demands explicit consent
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  484. winfried I lost my overview over 1.1c
  485. winfried have we covered the s2s cases there?
  486. pep. jonasw, I see
  487. pep. just inbound?
  488. pep. And even then I'm not sure
  489. Ge0rG winfried: I think so
  490. Ge0rG the difference to c2s is probably that there are different retention times for data, and no explicit consent from the user
  491. Ge0rG oh, there is also the "transport component" use case
  492. jonasw mmm, a whatsapp transport <3
  493. jonasw for super fubar
  494. Ge0rG If I register with icq.evildomain.com, it will store/process my ICQ credentials
  495. winfried Ge0rG: that is an interesting one
  496. pep. Isn't that another normal s2s case?
  497. jonasw credentials, right
  498. pep. "We don't know what can happen on the other side"
  499. winfried pep.: that one is
  500. pep. And they won't get more than what we give them
  501. winfried but whatsapptransport.trusteddomain.com is different
  502. jonasw I wonder if we want a way to give consent to the processing done by an s2s domain. then there could be something pubsubby where clients can query which s2s domains the user consented with and show that in the UI. warn the user when sending a message to a non-consented domain with "review the privacy policy" and offer doing the in-band consent thing as per the EULA XEP.
  503. winfried because trusteddomain is transfering it to a third server
  504. daniel has left
  505. jonasw fwiw, I’m going to head out in four minutes.
  506. pep. How long do you want to go btw?
  507. pep. jonasw, I see value in that, I'm not sure it's not going to be an annoying process though
  508. pep. It's the annoying "yes I agree" that everybody is going to overlook in the end
  509. jonasw could be simplified in the UX of course, but technically we might need something like that
  510. jonasw and the server could even block stanzas to non-trusted s2s domains in strict deployments.
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  513. winfried maybe set a next session? Maybe we should wrap up this one and move on to the interesting stuff....
  514. pep. yep
  515. pep. Date of next?
  516. jonasw following weeks this time won’t work for me
  517. jonasw (I know I’m special with scheduling and I’m sorry)
  518. pep. I can do any
  519. Ge0rG winfried: actually I'd argue that a remote transport is subject to a direct relationship with the user as a data controller
  520. Maranda Can I make an addition to s2s message processing? If hints are made mandatory that could pose a disclaimer caveat, in which if a user doesn't give explicit consent to treatment by a remote entity and I flagged all messages with "no-store" or "no-permanent-storage" it could be argued the responsibility falls directly on the 3rd uncompliant party
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  522. pep. Tomorrow? Wed 12:30 or 13:30CEST? (like before)
  523. Maranda Because that'll be an impeding problem for sure
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  525. jonasw pep., tomorrow is Tue in my calendar
  526. jonasw Wed won’t work for me
  527. pep. jonasw, yes it was two questions :p
  528. jonasw I’d prefer the time we did today actually, I can arrange that any day except mondays.
  529. winfried both work for me
  530. pep. If same time, I can't do Tue/Thu
  531. jonasw (and wednesdays, sorry)
  532. jonasw but 12:30 CEST also works, except on wednesdays
  533. pep. Tue 12:30CEST then?
  534. jonasw wfm
  535. winfried wfm
  536. Ge0rG wfm
  537. jonasw \o/
  538. pep. *bang*
  539. jonasw okay, gotta head out, see you folks
  540. winfried cu!
  541. winfried thanks
  542. pep. I need my coffee now
  543. pep. You guys caught me early
  544. winfried pep.: :-D
  545. winfried pep.: are you taking notes/logs again? maybe coordinate who puts them in the Wiki
  546. pep. I'll try to come up with the minutes before noon
  547. pep. If you can put that on the wiki that'd be great :p
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  550. winfried I'll try, won't be home from work meetings till 0:30 today, but I will have some time in trains...
  551. Ge0rG trains. The place where you can work on the really important things, while telling your employer that you were too tired to do the after-meeting reports.
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  553. winfried Ge0rG: watch out, this MUC has a public log :-D
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  557. daniel > trains. The place where you can work on the really important things, while telling your employer that you were too tired to do the after-meeting reports. Trains. Those things that don't run if there is a signal failure. What ever that means. A rat bit through a cable maybe? Because apparently something as important as signals doesn't have redundancy
  558. Ge0rG winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime. Sometimes I have days when I need to get out of bed at 4AM, have some 12hrs of train time with a business meeting in the middle. They can't expect me to work 16hrs ;)
  559. Ge0rG daniel: the most frequent cause of delay at Deutsche Bahn is copper theft, I've heard.
  560. Ge0rG https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Kupferdiebe-kosten-Zeit-und-Geld-article10436256.html
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  570. winfried daniel Ge0rG here in the netherlands it is / was a major cause for delays too. They do have more theft-proof infrastructure nowadays
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  574. Ge0rG winfried: do you have any news regarding the 112 app?
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  580. Maranda And from my point of view, after glancing at it, GDPR is made to "make it impossibile" for complex decentralised environments to exist, so whatever will be done here will be for naught beside that when a user registers he'll get a message stating "do you give consent to treatment of your data by third parties", "I give consent" == s2s enabled, else s2s disabled.
  581. Maranda Fin.
  582. Ge0rG Maranda: your point of view is cynically pessimistic.
  583. Valerian has left
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  585. Ge0rG Like with the cookie directive. The intention was to inform users and to allow them to opt out. Then it was perverted by the "content providers" to blame the EU
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  588. Maranda Ge0rG: too bad that it looks to me that for what we could ever attempt to do to be compliant, due to the nature of xmpp we could never fully be.
  589. Maranda But we will see as usual
  590. winfried Ge0rG: yes, I have the interview done and a concept-blog, still working on the whitepaper. They have to check with their security persons I don't publicise any confidental information before I can show you the results
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  593. Ge0rG winfried: I'm a security person. I can do a closed-group review ;)
  594. winfried Ge0rG: :-D
  595. winfried Ge0rG: I got a fascinating insight in the world of Belgian organisation and security. I can already reveal the organisation operating *all* of the telecom infrastructure in Belgium has more firewalls then employees ;-)
  596. winfried (all of the governmental telecom infrastructure)
  597. Ge0rG winfried: that sounds like much better data hygiene than T-Mobile Austria
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  645. jonasw > winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime.
  646. jonasw > winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime. […] have some 12hrs of train time with a business meeting in the middle. Ge0rG, you’re not good at advertising.
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  649. Ge0rG jonasw: my employer will gladly pay for the hotel room so you can arrive on the day before and have a pleasant day on site. I just prefer to sleep in my own bed.
  650. jonasw I hate hotels, exactly.
  651. Kev I often take my own pillow with me when I go to the office, if I'm driving (not so much with carrying it on the train).
  652. Ge0rG I don't hate them. I just love to sleep at home
  653. jonasw Ge0rG, yeah, that’s what i meant.
  654. jonasw also see what I wrote in the other muc.
  655. Ge0rG I'm still catching up with last night.
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  657. jonasw imagines Ge0rG MAM-syncing into his head
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  659. winfried Ge0rG: I was pretty impressed with the data infrastructure they are using, they even build a (rudimentary) application firewall for XMPP!
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  662. jonasw does conversations get consent from the user for using google cloud push? :)
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  666. jonasw okay, so since I have merge powers, I need advice on what to do with this: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
  667. jonasw I was actually happy that pidgin dropped off the list and was silently hoping that it wouldn’t re-appear.
  668. jonasw but apparently that didn’t happen
  669. jonasw so what to do now?
  670. jonasw possibly a question for board
  671. Ge0rG jonasw: the right way would be for the Board or some other Official Entity to say "no" to this request. The loophole workaround would be to reject the PR until it's vouched for by an identified pidgin developer
  672. jonasw Ge0rG, maybe you should add your "ceterum pidgin delendam esse" to board agenda instead of council ;)
  673. Ge0rG jonasw: I don't have the power to add things to Board's agenda
  674. Ge0rG jonasw: and I don't have the karma either. Whatever I wanted from Board so far was vetoed.
  675. marmistrz has joined
  676. jonasw Ge0rG, ask Guus or MattJ to add "Vote for elimination of all pidgin references from xmpp.org" to it :)
  677. jonasw Ge0rG, the laws of probability say that this time it’ll work!!k
  678. jonasw Ge0rG, the laws of probability say that this time it’ll work!!1
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  685. flow Ge0rG, I note that there is a carbons plugin for libpurple: https://github.com/gkdr/carbons
  686. jonasw plugins for libpurple are always good.
  687. jonasw they rarely break anything or introduce security issues or something like that.
  688. Ge0rG flow: do you want to explain to my aunt how to install it?
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  691. Kev BTW, I think the easiest way to (potentially) resolve the Pidgin thing is to ask the project if they mind not being listed.
  692. Kev If they say "Yeah, that's fine, it's not very current", there's no need to make difficult decisions.
  693. jonasw Kev, they made a release a few weeks ago
  694. Kev Does that contradict anything I said? :)
  695. jonasw dunno
  696. jonasw I’m not awake.
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  699. Ge0rG Kev: the easiest way is to require somebody from the project to raise their voice in that PR.
  700. Ge0rG Kev: which is even less work than asking them, and which is what I implied in my PR comment and described above as a "loophole"
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  704. Maranda So, dead-end for GDPR is.. 25th May again?
  705. jonasw yeah
  706. jonasw towel day
  707. Maranda And I see Ge0rG with an avatar feels strange compared to the usual "G"
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  709. Maranda jonasw, ok I suppose I'll go with my cynical, pessimistic idea, until I see more definite developments.
  710. Maranda (which I do not)
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  715. Ge0rG Maranda: I suppose I need to restart prosody to get rid of it.
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  717. Maranda Ge0rG: oh?
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  731. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I'd like to put up "kill GC1.0" onto the Council agenda for this week. I've collected some numbers, and I'll write a mail if I manage somehow.
  732. Ge0rG I'm also sure there was some other thing I promised / intended to PR.
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  808. Ge0rG https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/hours-after-zuck-deletion-scandal-facebook-announces-new-unsend-feature/ - this totally triggers the GDPR
  809. Ge0rG "You can't delete sent or received messages from someone else's device." -- unless you are Mark Zuckerberg.
  810. Andrew Nenakhov What's next, unsend email? 😂
  811. Andrew Nenakhov I always thought that features like last message correction are just silly
  812. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: that's old. https://support.office.com/en-us/article/recall-or-replace-an-email-message-that-you-sent-35027f88-d655-4554-b4f8-6c0729a723a0
  813. Ge0rG LMC is utter shit.
  814. Ge0rG LMC is actually useful in most cases.
  815. MattJ /load display_corrections
  816. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, > Message recall is available after you click Send and is available only if the recipient has an Exchange account within the same organization. Not really working in federated environment
  817. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: tough luck.
  818. Zash I motion that we all get ice cream! (everyone says +1) /correct I motion that we do evil things!
  819. daniel has left
  820. Maranda Ge0rG sucks.
  821. Maranda toads.
  822. Maranda 🤔
  823. Ge0rG so.... everyone licking ice cream, except for Maranda who's licking toads?
  824. Maranda Ge0rG, who knows maybe they'll turn into something else, or kill me, or both.
  825. waqas I haven't had ice cream in days…
  826. Andrew Nenakhov I get a feeling that xsf has entered a steep decline
  827. Ge0rG I have a fridge full of ice cream at my old home, and no sensible logistic way to get it into the new home.
  828. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: the xsf MUC is not representative of the XSF.
  829. waqas Ge0rG: "sensible"
  830. Maranda Ge0rG, it's not?
  831. Maranda :O
  832. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: the only decline the XSF is facing is that of available time of its members.
  833. Maranda Disclaimer 😚 ™
  834. Maranda :P
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  847. jonasw I just came back from having ice cream.
  848. jonasw that’s relevant, r ight?
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  850. Zash /topic Ice Cream
  851. jonasw that’s relevant, right?
  852. Ge0rG Luckily there is no XMPP off-topic MUC.
  853. jonasw /topic Chips
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  855. Ge0rG Damn, I'm hungry. Only had some waffles for breakfast and no lunch. Time to make a break
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  945. Maranda poked out a "pessimistical" mod_gdpr.
  946. Maranda commits.
  947. moparisthebest what does it do?
  948. moparisthebest guess I could just peruse code...
  949. rtq3 has left
  950. Maranda for now just disables s2s if you don't agree to conditions and 3rd party treatment of your data.
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  959. lovetox if a XEP says stuff like : Given the foregoing discussion, it is evident that an entity could receive any combination of iq:register, x:data, and x:oob namespaces
  960. lovetox then i know im in for a lot of fun
  961. moparisthebest what are email providers doing with their identical S2S problem?
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  969. Maranda https://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/6044add55d8acfef86f4210ceae27cd6ca178a3f/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua --> completely untested, though it should be portable to Prosody easily enough.
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  974. jonasw moparisthebest, nobody knows
  975. jonasw moparisthebest, but the expectations might be different for email which might be relevant for law stuff
  976. moparisthebest why would expectations matter? they are 100% identical as far as I can tell
  977. jonasw moparisthebest, I’m not sure. people might not expect their IM to be stored indefinitely on some server. for mail, this might be different.
  978. moparisthebest why? maybe they think everyone uses pop3 and has the 'delete from server' box ticked?
  979. Zash moparisthebest: wasn't the box for "don't delete from server"?
  980. moparisthebest depends on the client I guess :)
  981. moparisthebest I'm just saying from a technical perspective, with regard to s2s issue, email and xmpp are identical, and since email is far more widely used by much bigger companies, I feel like we should just see what they are doing
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  987. Maranda Identical me... thinks not.
  988. Maranda Comparing mail data with a xmpp s2s stream is weird at best.
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  990. Maranda One it's just a singler envelope the other... is... a stream? With potentially much more data passing by.
  991. Maranda mutters says the word.
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  993. moparisthebest Maranda, sorry, how is it not identical?
  994. Maranda I just said.
  995. moparisthebest you send individual messages to a federated server
  996. moparisthebest they may or may not keep them
  997. moparisthebest the 'potentially more data' seems totally wrong too
  998. Maranda You just send individual messages? Oh rly?
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  1000. moparisthebest how often do you send/recieve xmpp messages with 25mb attachments sent with bob or whatever :P
  1001. jonasw I tend to agree that they’re pretty much identical regarding the data which passes.
  1002. moparisthebest that happens regularly with email
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  1004. Maranda I repeat "You just send individual messages? Oh rly?"
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  1007. moparisthebest yes, both email and xmpp just send individual messages, right?
  1008. Maranda Hmmm nay, but okay.
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  1010. moparisthebest Maranda, how do you think they are different? because xmpp often sends multiple messages over a single connection?
  1011. moparisthebest because smtp does that too, and so does imap, pop3, etc
  1012. Maranda <incoming-routed presence="2078391" message="644568" iq="1050302"/> <outgoing-routed presence="428397" message="152432" iq="985607"/>
  1013. Maranda coughs.
  1014. moparisthebest that's 2 messages I guess, still not getting the point
  1015. Maranda .
  1016. SamWhited Please try to explain with words and not just examples, because I don't understand what you mean either.
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  1020. Maranda I don't think I have to explain XMPP (says even just XMPP) isn't just about messages, and you don't send exactly just messages actually you send much more of the other two.
  1021. Maranda And there's a lot of data in *those two*
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  1024. moparisthebest when you boil it all down though, it's just message passing
  1025. Maranda if you say so.
  1026. moparisthebest are you saying you also send presence and things?
  1027. moparisthebest how is that different than an email like 'hey, I started work today' or whatever
  1028. Maranda Maybe I don't operate the sending directly which poses *much* of a difference compared to e-mail since those are completely (or almost) abstracted from users UI wise
  1029. Kev I think when you're potentially talking about clients broadcasting your current location to all of your contacts, or whether you're WFH or in the office, that *is* a different use case than email.
  1030. Maranda and still for GDPR we have to take that data/meta-data in account
  1031. Maranda so if you keep saying xmpp is like e-mail okay.
  1032. moparisthebest ok, so you are saying extra types of data get sent with xmpp without user intervention than email?
  1033. moparisthebest *that's* an argument I can follow
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  1036. moparisthebest still, I believe normal message sending should be the same as email, so we could copy email providers for that, and maybe your mod_gdpr could just filter everything but normal messages or something?
  1037. Dave Cridland has left
  1038. jonasw ... except that lots of stuff doesn’t work with only normal messages.
  1039. jonasw like OMEMO.
  1040. Maranda mod_gdpr blocks everything going s2s, before user consented to the agreement and mainly 3rd parties treatment of his data passing by s2s.
  1041. jonasw how does the user consent, and which agreement?
  1042. moparisthebest yep, but perhaps you can sort some things out to what leaks (meta)data or not
  1043. Maranda https://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/master/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua#L19
  1044. Maranda jonasw, ^
  1045. Ge0rG Maranda: you need to gain consent for each individual s2s domain, and link to their respective data privacy policy.
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  1047. moparisthebest that seems utterly impossible Ge0rG
  1048. Maranda Ge0rG, do I? Me thinks that the above is legally valid.
  1049. SamWhited has left
  1050. Ge0rG Also, I don't understand how email and xmpp are different either, from a data protection / data retention point of view
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  1053. jonasw .oO(plot twist: user is currently negotiating for a power exchange relationship and replies with "I consent" to the wrong message.)
  1054. jonasw Maranda, I don’t think that works either. you need to make the user aware of the specific data and metadata which may be sent to the remote domain.
  1055. Dave Cridland has left
  1056. jonasw users might not be aware that the timestamp of their last online presence would be shared for exampale
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  1058. Maranda Ge0rG, it's implicit that if a from capuleti.is user chooses to have a contact to romeo.is then whatever data gets shared with romeo.is is *his/her sole* responsibility and that the data going to romeo.is will be treated by romeo.is
  1059. Maranda jonasw, that is already done by the ToS
  1060. jonasw Maranda, which ToS?
  1061. Maranda The one which I'll add options to add you can't cover everything In-Band, else I need to send a never ending wall.
  1062. Maranda The one which I'll add options to add you can't cover everything In-Band, else I need to send a never ending wall of text.
  1063. jonasw that’s why we were discussing the EULA XEP
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  1069. Maranda jonasw, which brings to the problem good luck getting every implementation and expecially every server federating to compliant by the 25th.
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  1071. moparisthebest yea that's really insane
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  1073. moparisthebest shouldn't it, at most, be an explanation of federation?
  1074. moparisthebest (if you send something to bob@example.org refer to example.org for how they manage your data)
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  1076. moparisthebest again, what are email providers doing? they won't be doing 'federated eulas' I can almost guarantee
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  1078. jonasw moparisthebest, true, but they may be gambling on the fact that nobody is going to risk to burn down all of email with a lawsuit.
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  1081. Maranda Problem is that the deadline is too near now we should have moved as soon as GDPR got out in 2016 imho
  1082. jonasw yeah
  1083. moparisthebest that's a fine bet for my person email, but gmail/hotmail surely would just have to pay germany a few trillion dollars or something
  1084. Maranda didn't even know about it before just recently.
  1085. moparisthebest and they've surely had lawyers on this for years?
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  1088. moparisthebest federated EULAs sound like a friggin nightmare too
  1089. moparisthebest "XMPP sucks so bad, I need a lawyer every time I have to add a new contact"
  1090. waqas has joined
  1091. Zash What about plain ol' IP routing?
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  1093. Maranda but still as soon as there's a draft of "EULA" xep I'll link to that jonasw (obviously)
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  1095. moparisthebest that's true Zash , every IP/port combo needs another EULA, also from every switch/router along the way, right?
  1096. Zash Yes
  1097. jonasw Zash, yeah
  1098. moparisthebest I think even the concept of a EULA xep is a terrible idea for the above reason
  1099. moparisthebest if widely implemented, it'd kill xmpp
  1100. jonasw I was thinking about that too during the last meeting. I wonder if we’re colossally missing something here.
  1101. jonasw moparisthebest, fundamentally, the EULA XEP was meant not for federation but for in-band registration
  1102. moparisthebest does anyone know anyone that works at gmail or hotmail or something?
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  1104. jonasw unfortunately not
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  1106. moparisthebest jonasw, ah well for in-band registration it's a good idea, it's just a terrible idea for federation
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  1109. Maranda an EULA xep could not need implementation
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  1111. Maranda if it's just a descriptive xep
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  1113. Maranda like what data types are there, how to act in case of data transiting from a to b, who to contact in that case etc.
  1114. Maranda like what data types are there, how to act in case of data transiting from a to b, who to contact in that case, who is responsible of what when etc.
  1115. Maranda there's a fair amount of documents like that XEP wise
  1116. jonasw Maranda, the idea was to have an additional IQ exchange before/during registration, where the key points of a GDPR-EULA (e.g. retention times, data which is persisted/not persisted ,…) is presented as structured data (XML). this allows clients to format the key points neatly. in addition, the full terms can be provided via one or more URLs.
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  1118. moparisthebest and then you've made the protocol user-hostile for what some non-lawyers think some lawyers wrote in a jurisdiction that controls a small fraction of the internet
  1119. moparisthebest sounds like a terrible plan
  1120. Maranda Which is good if the deadend wasn't in a month and a half
  1121. jonasw moparisthebest, how is that user-hostile?
  1122. Maranda Or less
  1123. jonasw I think being aware of what the service does with your data is very user-friendly.
  1124. moparisthebest jonasw, "XMPP sucks so bad, I need a lawyer every time I have to add a new contact"
  1125. jonasw I am not talking about federation, moparisthebest.
  1126. moparisthebest "with whatscrap I just type in a contact and start chatting"
  1127. Maranda So at the very least we should have a document to link at, me thinks
  1128. moparisthebest well again, for user registration I totally agree
  1129. SamWhited FWIW, XEP-0389 was designed with EULAs in mind. You could probably implement it already with that.
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  1134. jonasw moparisthebest, I am not talking about federation.
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  1136. Maranda No time for xep-0389
  1137. moparisthebest ok, then I think it's a good idea
  1138. Maranda I feel
  1139. moparisthebest I just really don't want federation crippled due to some legislators with a superiority complex, and a likely wrong reading of the law by non-lawyers
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  1141. Maranda Well I don't have 200k
  1142. Maranda 😎
  1143. moparisthebest try voting for better people, or move :)
  1144. moparisthebest I mean we aren't writing code to cripple XMPP to china or russian standards
  1145. jonasw moparisthebest, I like the legislation actually.
  1146. Maranda All I want as a server operator is at least a blanket covering most of my ass
  1147. moparisthebest why write code to cripple XMPP to EU standards
  1148. Maranda That's all we need in the immediate time anyways
  1149. Maranda Because as I redundantly said: there's not much time left
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  1164. Maranda moparisthebest, we need to get informative documentation done first, the most problematic bits are the data types descriptions, behaviour and garden-to-garden transits
  1165. moparisthebest not sure exactly what you mean, but are you still just talking about registration?
  1166. moparisthebest in general when I've had to present lawyer-stuff to users, they like to lay stuff out themselves, and I always end up providing text as written
  1167. moparisthebest just a giant wall of text...
  1168. Maranda No, I said it anything protocol dependant wont see the light by the 25th
  1169. moparisthebest just turn off IBR and make them sign up with a web page?
  1170. moparisthebest the free world can continue to support IBR
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  1173. Maranda Because beside the servers, there's clients and the "Pidgin" effect
  1174. pep. moparisthebest: make them sign up what with a web pave
  1175. pep. Page*
  1176. pep. Please do provide input during the meetings if you have insight
  1177. Maranda The registration method is irrelevant we need documentation, and stuff to add to single service agreements
  1178. Maranda In the mean time
  1179. pep. moparisthebest: and it's not just to new users
  1180. moparisthebest well, web page registration lets you display a proper terms of service, and record them agreeing to it?
  1181. pep. Yeah but what goes into the EULA
  1182. Maranda moparisthebest, yes
  1183. pep. That's the whole poiny
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  1185. moparisthebest pep., ask your lawyer
  1186. pep. Point
  1187. Maranda But we need to know what to add to the service agreements...
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  1189. moparisthebest hopefully just explaining how it works would be good enough, but who knows, IANAL
  1190. Maranda And if there's a descriptive EULA xep at least we can link that
  1191. pep. Well we're trying to see if we can figure parts of it by ourselves. Ultimately yes, we'll ask lawyers
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  1193. pep. And then try to provide templates for operators out there, with the usual disclaimers
  1194. moparisthebest if you are in the 'writing code to solve it' phase then you are too far, should have already asked a lawyer
  1195. pep. We're not
  1196. moparisthebest some people are :) https://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/master/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua
  1197. Maranda That's a draft
  1198. Zash > The software is provided "as is", without warranty of any kind etc...
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  1201. Maranda And it's very "user friendly" as it's not protocol dependant
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  1203. Maranda (problem is the relevant bits to add there)
  1204. Maranda Zash, if it was that easy
  1205. Maranda Apparently it's not
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  1214. Maranda moparisthebest, but yes essentially that module should cover the edgy cases, in where if users stay in your garden it's "easy". When they get outside it's troubles they wrote the regulation specifically that way
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  1217. Maranda (And they'll get prompted the first time they try to cross the wall)
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  1219. pep. What really annoys/confuses me, is that everybody talks about companies when this is going to reach a lot more than that
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  1223. moparisthebest that's the problem, they seem to have written the legislation to specifically target walled gardens like facebook/whatsapp etc
  1224. moparisthebest and it does a good job at that
  1225. moparisthebest but they totally ignored federated systems, and it seems to almost outright ban federated systems
  1226. moparisthebest which, ignoring xmpp is something I could see legislators doing, ignoring email is not
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  1228. moparisthebest except they probably think 'email' and 'gmail' are the same thing...
  1229. Zash Has anyone reached out to those involved in drafting this and asked "how does this relate to email?"
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  1231. Zash IIRC they used Outlook (with web thing)
  1232. Zash OWA?
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  1234. Zash The FOSS-friendly people I stayed with were developing something to make it usable with Thunderbird
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  1241. moparisthebest davmail is what I used to use for that
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  1292. Ge0rG The new CLOUD Act allows US agencies to obtain data hosted in Europe. I wonder how many days it will take for Russia to create a comparable legal framework.
  1293. lovetox but i read EU wanted to do this frist
  1294. lovetox but i read EU wanted to do this first
  1295. lovetox get data stored in US
  1296. lovetox so everybody gets all the data :)
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  1306. moparisthebest the solution is for everyone to run their own server in their house lovetox :P
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  1308. Zash \o/
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  1312. lovetox im already using no smartphone, facebook, i just have to get rid of gmail somehow
  1313. lovetox then im underground
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  1315. moparisthebest lovetox, I cut the gmail cord in 2013, just setup postfix/dovecot on your house-server
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  1319. moparisthebest you can still have gmail forward mails to your new address, and you can have postfix send outgoing mails from your gmail through gmail's servers until you have everything fully migrated
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  1322. lovetox im have my own domain, but i fear spam a bit
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  1324. lovetox nothing goes over google spam filter
  1325. moparisthebest it's not that bad, spamassasin+amavis
  1326. moparisthebest thunderbird pretty much always gets whatever leaks through those
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  1328. lovetox how nice would it be if we had all pgp encryption on email
  1329. lovetox google announced some kind of plugin for gamil years ago
  1330. moparisthebest it's not as easy as setting up an xmpp server, there are more parts, and they tend to be crustier
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  1332. moparisthebest but you only have to do it once
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  1337. Maranda well it's tricky to be spam proof, but not impossible.
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  1343. Maranda (for e-mail)
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  1345. lovetox but with email is like, even if you host youself, 40% of all your mails are sent to gmail adresses anyway
  1346. lovetox so they still get all emails
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  1443. Maranda hmmm lovetox
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  1501. pep. lovetox: that's true, though if we say that we might as well give up already
  1502. pep. Even for xmpp
  1503. lovetox why google dropped xmpp support :D
  1504. lovetox we are save here
  1505. Zash Extensible Mango and Potato Planters
  1506. pep. I mean it's not just true for email but for lots of things.. If I thought it wasn't worth setting up my own mail service because "40% goes through Google anyway", I think giving up on life wouldn't be really far ahead :x
  1507. pep. Lots of things go through Google, Facebook and whatnots
  1508. pep. Zash: I'm going to signup for this giant meteor party I think
  1509. Zash I'm not running my own email to keep Google from seeing my emails. I'm doing it so that I don't have to care about some provider shutting down.
  1510. lovetox i would run my own server if it was just my email
  1511. Zash To have control over my own ifrastructure. To not have to wait for someone else to fix my problems.
  1512. lovetox but whole family uses the same domain
  1513. pep. Zash: sure I'm not saying that's why I do it, or the only reason
  1514. lovetox they will not understand if it doesnt work because i fucked it up again ^^
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  1517. Zash My mom uses my email server. Most recent issue she had was some unexplained issue that I'm going to write off as "Android weirdness"
  1518. Zash "It doesn't work" - I try, it works fine.
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  1537. Maranda Zash, that's not Android Weirdness, it's called "Mom Weirdness"
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  1539. Maranda It's common to every mom (mine too), with the exact same symptoms: "It doesn't work" - I arrive, try it works fine.
  1540. Maranda :P
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  1604. pep. Not sure a CC from members to operators is great, they can't all reply otherwise
  1605. pep. Well they can break remove members@ ~
  1606. pep. I'll just go to sleep..
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