XSF Discussion - 2018-04-09


  1. SamWhited has joined

  2. daniel has left

  3. Guus has left

  4. Chobbes has left

  5. Chobbes has joined

  6. daniel has left

  7. Guus has left

  8. Guus has left

  9. efrit has joined

  10. daniel has left

  11. efrit has left

  12. efrit has joined

  13. SamWhited has left

  14. Guus has left

  15. nyco has left

  16. daniel has left

  17. Guus has left

  18. Neustradamus has left

  19. Neustradamus has joined

  20. Guus has left

  21. Guus has left

  22. SamWhited has joined

  23. SamWhited has left

  24. SamWhited has joined

  25. Chobbes has joined

  26. daniel has left

  27. Guus has left

  28. Zash has left

  29. lumi has left

  30. lumi has joined

  31. SamWhited has left

  32. lumi has left

  33. SamWhited has joined

  34. matlag has left

  35. matlag has joined

  36. Guus has left

  37. efrit has left

  38. alexis has left

  39. alexis has joined

  40. alexis has left

  41. alexis has joined

  42. Guus has left

  43. alexis has joined

  44. alexis has left

  45. alexis has joined

  46. mrdoctorwho has joined

  47. alexis has left

  48. alexis has joined

  49. Guus has left

  50. alexis has left

  51. alexis has joined

  52. Guus has left

  53. SamWhited has left

  54. alexis has left

  55. alexis has joined

  56. Guus has left

  57. SamWhited has left

  58. Chobbes has left

  59. Chobbes has joined

  60. alexis has left

  61. alexis has joined

  62. alexis has left

  63. alexis has joined

  64. Guus has left

  65. tux has left

  66. tux has joined

  67. SamWhited has left

  68. alexis has left

  69. alexis has joined

  70. Guus has left

  71. daniel has left

  72. alexis has left

  73. SamWhited has left

  74. SamWhited has left

  75. Guus has left

  76. SamWhited has joined

  77. alexis has joined

  78. Chobbes has left

  79. Chobbes has joined

  80. alexis has left

  81. alexis has joined

  82. Guus has left

  83. alexis has left

  84. mrdoctorwho has left

  85. alexis has joined

  86. Dave Cridland has left

  87. alexis has left

  88. alexis has joined

  89. vanitasvitae has left

  90. Guus has left

  91. alexis has left

  92. vanitasvitae has joined

  93. Guus has left

  94. matlag has left

  95. matlag has joined

  96. ibikk has joined

  97. Nekit has joined

  98. alexis has joined

  99. Guus has left

  100. alexis has left

  101. alexis has joined

  102. sezuan has left

  103. alexis has left

  104. alexis has joined

  105. andy has joined

  106. alexis has left

  107. Tobias has joined

  108. mrdoctorwho has left

  109. alexis has joined

  110. Guus has left

  111. ludo has joined

  112. alexis has left

  113. alexis has joined

  114. andy has left

  115. Nekit has left

  116. Guus has left

  117. alexis has left

  118. alexis has joined

  119. Dave Cridland has left

  120. Dave Cridland has left

  121. j.r has joined

  122. j.r has joined

  123. Guus has left

  124. mimi89999 has left

  125. mimi89999 has joined

  126. mimi89999 has joined

  127. ThibG has joined

  128. ThibG has joined

  129. rtq3 has joined

  130. jjrh has left

  131. Dave Cridland has left

  132. Dave Cridland has left

  133. moparisthebest has left

  134. @Alacer has left

  135. @Alacer has joined

  136. daniel has left

  137. daniel has joined

  138. Seve/SouL has left

  139. mrdoctorwho has left

  140. Guus has left

  141. j.r has left

  142. j.r has joined

  143. rtq3 has left

  144. rtq3 has joined

  145. Guus has left

  146. daniel has left

  147. lnj has joined

  148. Valerian has joined

  149. rtq3 has left

  150. rtq3 has joined

  151. marmistrz has joined

  152. ludo has left

  153. ludo has joined

  154. Dave Cridland has left

  155. Guus has left

  156. Dave Cridland has left

  157. andy has joined

  158. daniel has left

  159. sezuan has left

  160. tim@boese-ban.de has joined

  161. Dave Cridland has left

  162. Valerian has left

  163. Valerian has joined

  164. rtq3 has left

  165. ludo has left

  166. ludo has joined

  167. jere has joined

  168. la|r|ma has joined

  169. lnj has left

  170. ta has joined

  171. Valerian has left

  172. Valerian has joined

  173. lskdjf has joined

  174. rtq3 has joined

  175. rion has joined

  176. jubalh has joined

  177. jubalh has left

  178. jubalh has joined

  179. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  180. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  181. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  182. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  183. Nekit has left

  184. Nekit has joined

  185. jjrh has left

  186. Dave Cridland has left

  187. jjrh has left

  188. Ge0rG has joined

  189. j.r has joined

  190. Dave Cridland has left

  191. marc has left

  192. Guus has left

  193. Guus has left

  194. nyco has left

  195. Valerian has left

  196. Guus has left

  197. daniel has left

  198. Guus has left

  199. Guus has left

  200. Guus has left

  201. marmistrz has joined

  202. jubalh has joined

  203. jubalh has joined

  204. Dave Cridland has left

  205. xnyhps has left

  206. xnyhps has joined

  207. jubalh has left

  208. Guus has left

  209. Ge0rG has left

  210. Ge0rG has joined

  211. SaltyBones has left

  212. Dave Cridland has left

  213. Dave Cridland has left

  214. Dave Cridland has left

  215. tux has joined

  216. Dave Cridland has left

  217. SaltyBones has left

  218. tim@boese-ban.de has joined

  219. Dave Cridland has left

  220. Dave Cridland has left

  221. SaltyBones has joined

  222. Valerian has joined

  223. pep. has left

  224. lnj has joined

  225. Guus has left

  226. Guus has left

  227. Steve Kille has left

  228. Steve Kille has left

  229. edhelas

    https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/07/rss-is-undead/

  230. edhelas

    > I think the solution is a set of improvements. RSS as a protocol needs to be expanded so that it can offer more data around prioritization as well as other signals critical to making the technology more effective at the reader layer. This isn’t just about updating the protocol, but also about updating all of the content management systems that publish an RSS feed to take advantage of those features.

  231. edhelas

    Pubsub :-° ?

  232. marmistrz has joined

  233. Ge0rG has joined

  234. Steve Kille has joined

  235. Andrew Nenakhov

    I've read that article in my RSS reader. To me, RSS is pretty much alive.

  236. edhelas

    Andrew Nenakhov don't wanna use Pubsub :D Movim is my news reader B-)

  237. Guus has left

  238. Martin has joined

  239. SaltyBones has left

  240. rtq3 has left

  241. remko has joined

  242. edhelas

    https://nl.movim.eu/?node/news.movim.eu/TechCrunch

  243. Valerian has left

  244. Valerian has joined

  245. goffi has joined

  246. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  247. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  248. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  249. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  250. Valerian has left

  251. ludo has left

  252. ludo has joined

  253. efrit has joined

  254. Valerian has joined

  255. ralphm has joined

  256. jonasw

    GDPR meeting in 5

  257. jonasw

    according to my clock and calendar at least

  258. winfried

    jonasw: according to mine too ;-)

  259. jonasw

    neat.

  260. jonasw

    pep., Ge0rG, you there?

  261. Ge0rG

    jonasw: kind of

  262. Ge0rG

    I fixed my poezio, but this is still the worst monday I've had this year

  263. jonasw

    yet.

  264. Ge0rG

    right.

  265. jonasw

    Ge0rG, set up a disk quota for your borg things so that they can’t eat all the disk space.

  266. jonasw

    disk quotas aren’t deep magic

  267. Ge0rG

    jonasw: good point. But then I couldn't prune the old backups any more because pruning would exceed the quota

  268. jonasw

    also allows you to disable/unset the quota while pruning when you need that

  269. jonasw

    it’s all a matter of invoking edquota and increasing the limit temporarily :)

  270. Ge0rG

    I didn't even anticipate the backups to grow that large.

  271. jonasw

    or maybe use that cuteborg alpha software which schedules prunes automatically. (shameless plug)

  272. daniel has left

  273. pep.

    My computer has decided to be angry at me this morning, should be here soon

  274. jonasw

    okay, now I’m getting wary, why hasn’t any of my stuff failed today.

  275. winfried

    bad digital karma today, what did we do to our computers to make them so upset?

  276. daniel has joined

  277. pep.

    made it!

  278. vanitasvitae has left

  279. jonasw

    \o/

  280. jonasw

    I’m not up for chairing or anything, having mild headache.

  281. winfried bangs a gavel and looks around in mild bewilderment, what to do now?

  282. pep.

    !

  283. winfried

    Would it be ok, to slowly progress through the list at the wiki?

  284. jonasw

    seems good

  285. pep.

    Ah I haven't updated with last week's

  286. Ge0rG

    Yes please

  287. winfried

    Ge0rG: you mentioned there are discussions about ip-adresses being pii or not, maybe we should settle that one first

  288. Ge0rG

    winfried: I don't think we should.

  289. jonasw

    I don’t think that’s useful.

  290. pep.

    Can _we_ settle anything?

  291. winfried

    ok, we don't settle it ;-)

  292. Ge0rG

    winfried: in our context it's best to consider them as PII

  293. jonasw

    first, what pep. says, lots of laywers have been fighting over that already before the GDPR, and second I think that would let us lose ourselves in details.

  294. Ge0rG

    winfried: my point was just to show the ambiguity of the legal framework

  295. winfried

    Ge0rG: clear and good course of action

  296. andy has left

  297. winfried

    Q1.1d, do we dig into that one further?

  298. andy has joined

  299. Ge0rG

    For the logs and newcomers: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR

  300. Ge0rG

    winfried: I think we weren't done with 1.1c for s2s

  301. winfried

    ok, 1,1c it will be

  302. pep.

    I want s/Archiving/user content/ on the notes to make it just like the others

  303. pep.

    I would s/Archiving/user content/ on the notes to make it just like the others

  304. Ge0rG

    Yes please

  305. winfried

    +1

  306. mrdoctorwho has left

  307. mrdoctorwho has left

  308. mrdoctorwho has left

  309. mrdoctorwho has joined

  310. Ge0rG

    We are also lacking logs of 1.1b s2s in the wiki

  311. pep.

    yes, let me put last week's in there

  312. Ge0rG

    Maybe somebody could paste from the minutes

  313. Ge0rG

    So that we can proceed from there

  314. winfried

    maybe it is good to make clear: transfer itself is a processing, but needs explicitation about what data is transfered, what processing is done on the other side and with what purpose...

  315. jonasw

    can we know the processing on the other side, really?

  316. jonasw

    since there’s no contract or something which would be binding for the other side.

  317. pep.

    I don't think we can

  318. jonasw

    they could store the message forever even without advertising MAM

  319. pep.

    I think we'd best assume the worst once the messages are gone over s2s

  320. jonasw

    yes. the question is: how do we tell the users?

  321. pep.

    Just as I did? :/

  322. winfried

    maybe we can define a xep & service discovery that just says: this server keeps to these rules....

  323. jonasw

    and how do we tell the users in a way that they can give consent properly, and don’t wander off to silo services?

  324. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  325. jonasw

    winfried, hmm, you mean the GDPR-policy-XEP pep. wanted to write for c2s could be used for s2s too?

  326. jonasw

    interesting.

  327. jonasw

    question is, would a user still have to consent for each remote domain?

  328. pep.

    Also, I trust my own server, I'm not sure I trust many others

  329. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I tend to slightly disagree

  330. Valerian has left

  331. Valerian has joined

  332. winfried

    jonasw: think that in many cases it does't, but it is our task to find out

  333. jonasw

    Ge0rG, with what exactly? I think I mostly asked questions at this point :D

  334. Ge0rG

    as winfried said last time, this is handing off of data to another controller. The other controller is also bound by GDPR rules, so they can't just do anything they want with the data. In theory

  335. winfried

    pep.: yeah, we move to the delicate field legal trust...

  336. jonasw

    Ge0rG, sooo... if one federates with servers which have users which are inside the EU you’re under GDPR?

  337. jonasw

    Ge0rG, sooo... if you federate with servers which have users which are inside the EU you’re under GDPR?

  338. Ge0rG

    What I'd like to know more about is whether we need some explicit legal framework for handing off data, or if this is covered by the user's implicit consent of wanting the message delivered

  339. Ge0rG

    jonasw: basically, yes.

  340. jonasw

    neat

  341. jonasw

    so everything is under GPDR now.

  342. Ge0rG

    jonasw: as if it wasn't before

  343. jonasw

    yeah, with "now" I mean "when it takes effect"

  344. Ge0rG

    winfried: I suggest we have a look at the "incoming s2s" situation first, and then try to reverse the approach for "outgoing"

  345. winfried

    Ge0rG: smart!

  346. Ge0rG

    obviously, with incoming s2s we are already required to be GDPR compliant.

  347. winfried

    Ge0rG: if you are situated in the EU or if you are targeting EU users

  348. Ge0rG

    We receive data via s2s (s2s meta-data, user content, user meta-data), and we are kindly asked to process that data in some way that was implied by the user

  349. Ge0rG

    winfried: s/targeting/not explicitly blocking/ ;)

  350. winfried

    Ge0rG: hmmm... my reading up to now was targeting, but that maybe the old legal framework....

  351. jonasw

    you can’t block EU users s2s-wise

  352. jonasw

    but also you can’t really target EU users s2s-wise

  353. jonasw

    so I’m like 😕

  354. pep.

    jonasw, not like it's impossible

  355. Ge0rG

    winfried: targeting is implied if you don't exclude them explicitly, AFAIU

  356. Ge0rG

    winfried: but back to the topic.

  357. winfried is diving in his bible

  358. pep.

    When does a service become "accepting EU users" exactly? Say as an EU citizen I go to a japanese website, with their server located in Japan, there's not GDPR applying is there

  359. pep.

    (I'm here to ask the dumb questions)

  360. Ge0rG

    I'd say that processing of received data is covered by Art6 1.f "processing is necessary for the purposes of the legitimate interests pursued by the controller or by a third party" - the legitimate interest is to deliver the message to the appropriate user

  361. jonasw

    if LQ1 evaluates to "yes", it’s more tricky than that though

  362. winfried

    We are moving a bit forward and backward trough the topics...

  363. Ge0rG

    This means two things basically: a) we are allowed to do everything appropriate to deliver the content; b) we are not allowed to do anything that's not directly required for that

  364. jonasw

    winfried, okay, where were we?

  365. Maranda processing hints mandatory *coughs*

  366. Ge0rG

    GDPR hints.

  367. pep.

    Maranda, we can see for technical details later

  368. winfried

    1.1c s2s wasn't it?

  369. Ge0rG

    winfried: yes please

  370. winfried

    incoming and outgoing

  371. winfried

    incoming

  372. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  373. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  374. winfried

    - store in roster of peer

  375. Ge0rG

    We should cover each one of these: s2s meta-data (IPs, hostnames, sessions, server logs?) - GDPR probably doesn't apply user meta-data (presence, subscriptions, message routing) user content (messages, pubsub, etc.) MUC history, MUC MAM Remote components (e.g., roster management)

  376. winfried

    Ge0rG: yes that was what I was looking for

  377. Ge0rG

    s2s meta-data: R49 if at all

  378. jonasw

    user metadata: minimal: forwarded to receiving users connections typical: stored while receiving user is online (to avoid having to send out probes for new resources)

  379. Ge0rG

    jonasw: subscription requests and roster info is stored

  380. jonasw

    Ge0rG, that’s content though?

  381. jonasw

    from the categories in Q1.1b

  382. pep.

    (update the wiki I added 1.1c from the minutes)

  383. Ge0rG

    jonasw: ah, right

  384. jonasw

    user content: minimal: forwarded to receiving users connections if online; storage of roster-related things with account. typical: minimal + offline-storage if offline or even MAM for undefined period of time for messages

  385. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure if A in user B's roster is subject to user B's privacy laws, user A's or both'.

  386. jonasw

    probably mostly B

  387. winfried

    yes

  388. jonasw

    I can have you in my phone book and you can’t force me to erase that, I think, due to private use.

  389. winfried

    but the transfer to jurisdiction B is a processing

  390. Ge0rG

    jonasw: but I can get you fined it you upload my phone number to whatsapp.

  391. jonasw

    Ge0rG, yes.

  392. pep.

    Which is what's happening here

  393. jonasw

    Ge0rG, but the roster is my phone book in this case.

  394. pep.

    Well not whatsapp

  395. Ge0rG

    jonasw: so maybe I can also get you fined if you store my JID and name on your server?

  396. jonasw

    mmm

  397. pep.

    Ge0rG, so what do you propose? When a user calls for their right to erasure, that's propagated to every other server? And they magically disappear from everybody's roster at the same time?

  398. winfried

    no, when I am uploading pii of somebody else to a server without consent from that somebody I can be fined. Not because of that server but because of the uploading

  399. ralphm has joined

  400. jonasw

    sooo..... spammers are in violation of the GDPR?

  401. winfried

    s/consent/groud for processing/

  402. jonasw

    because they upload my email adress to some server?

  403. winfried

    jonasw: yes

  404. pep.

    That wouldn't really surprise me

  405. pep.

    It's not like they weren't already in violation of any other laws

  406. Ge0rG

    we have two s2s data specials not yet covered in 1.1c: - MUC (is that different from plain s2s?) - remote roster management

  407. jonasw

    hm, delivering a message is probalby "ground for processing"

  408. Dave Cridland has left

  409. winfried

    jonasw: it is needed for delivering a service you have agreed to (or not, in the case of spam)_

  410. jonasw

    I think for (semi-)anonymous MUCs, we really need to show users a message that the MUC is anonymous and they have to assume that all messages are public?

  411. jonasw

    For (semi-)anonymous MUCs, do we need to show users a message that the MUC is anonymous and they have to assume that all messages are public?

  412. pep.

    What about adding 170 when MAM MUC is enabled

  413. Dave Cridland has left

  414. jonasw

    because we can’t have any type of s2s-consent in that case because we don’t know to which domains the messages may go

  415. jonasw

    pep., mandatory, IMO

  416. pep.

    worksforme

  417. pep.

    I asked something similar on jdev@ not so long ago

  418. pep.

    And I think maranda also did talk about that

  419. Maranda

    👌🧝‍♂️

  420. jonasw

    the exact definition is:> Inform occupants that room logging is now enabled

  421. jonasw

    the exact definition is: > Inform occupants that room logging is now enabled which fits this use-case exactly.

  422. jonasw

    (note that it does not include "public")

  423. jonasw

    (we might want to have a different status code for *public* logging)

  424. jonasw

    (as opposed to members-only MUC MAM access)

  425. Ge0rG

    jonasw: MAM is subject to the same rules as room access

  426. Ge0rG

    in theory.

  427. jonasw

    Ge0rG, yes.

  428. Maranda

    Gajim does exactly that for status 170/171 without making dumb distinctions

  429. Ge0rG

    I wouldn't be surprised if some implementations make MAM access public ;)

  430. winfried

    so a possible processing may be "publicising the MUC logs on different channels or to non-members"? (bringing it back to 1.1c)

  431. jonasw

    winfried, yes.

  432. Maranda

    Aka just "room logging" enabled/disabled

  433. pep.

    Nothing prevents a muc owner from changing the member-only policy though, and suddenly everything that's been said before is public

  434. Ge0rG

    pep.: nothing prevents a muc owner to publish their local log of the MUC in the New York Times

  435. vanitasvitae has left

  436. winfried

    maybe some laws prevent that?

  437. vanitasvitae has joined

  438. Ge0rG

    I would consider that all these deliberate actions by a MUC participant to leak data fall under their respective responsibility

  439. jonasw

    winfried, one processing is at least "store the whole conversation on the MUC service"

  440. Ge0rG

    and not under "s2s data processing"

  441. jonasw

    +1 Ge0rG

  442. winfried

    +1

  443. pep.

    k

  444. Ge0rG

    so it's "store on the service and make it available to room members"

  445. winfried

    and it /may/ be also publishing it

  446. jonasw

    I’d like to have a status code for that, btw

  447. jonasw

    because that could save us from 9.1 trouble (there’s something about "manifestly made public" in there, and if we can get clients to show "THIS ROOM IS PUBLICLY LOGGED", we’re out of trouble there I think)

  448. jonasw

    do we have a technical ToDo list?

  449. winfried

    jonasw: not yet ;-)

  450. pep.

    Can make one

  451. jonasw

    pep., that’d be great

  452. pep.

    I can add EULA XEP in there :x

  453. jonasw

    I wouldn’t act on this right away, but instead keep it a WIP until we figure that we really need it.

  454. jonasw

    I wouldn’t act on the ToDo list right away, but instead keep it a WIP until we figure that we really need it.

  455. winfried

    (BTW one of my cats is hunting my phiysical mouse, the other one the cursor on the screen, am a bit distracted)

  456. winfried

    jonasw: +1

  457. pep.

    jonasw, the status code you're talking about is 170 or similar right

  458. jonasw

    pep., yes

  459. jonasw

    winfried, pics or it didn’t happen ;-)

  460. winfried

    jonasw: my cats have their privacy, I am not publishing them on the internet!

  461. pep.

    So.. what do we have atm, 1.1c S2S is split in two,

  462. Maranda

    And attach those to the Meeting Minutes.

  463. Maranda

    (cat pictures)

  464. rtq3 has joined

  465. Ge0rG

    Don't forget remote roster management. It's technically well designed, so no problems there, but we need to mention it

  466. winfried

    Ge0rG: +1

  467. pep.

    Ge0rG, what about it

  468. winfried

    it is a nice example of privacy by design, but it is a possible processing of the s2s case

  469. winfried

    thinking about it, it is also a processing of the c2s case...

  470. winfried

    we need to list it and mention it is covered by explicit consent

  471. lskdjf has joined

  472. jonasw

    RRM ist really good, taking a look at it for the first time now

  473. pep.

    I'm not sure I get all these comments. How is it privacy by design

  474. pep.

    What changes from normal roster management

  475. jonasw

    except that it has XMPP-technical flaws

  476. jonasw

    pep., the roster is managed by an entity which may be outside the domain of the user

  477. jonasw

    read-write

  478. pep.

    jonasw, yeah I get that, so it's worse possibly

  479. pep.

    I mean GDPR-speaking

  480. pep.

    Than normal c2s

  481. jonasw

    pep., but the entity has to ask permission and it gets only the roster entries related to their own domain, so that’s neat

  482. winfried

    it is privacy by design because the spec demands explicit consent

  483. la|r|ma has joined

  484. winfried

    I lost my overview over 1.1c

  485. winfried

    have we covered the s2s cases there?

  486. pep.

    jonasw, I see

  487. pep.

    just inbound?

  488. pep.

    And even then I'm not sure

  489. Ge0rG

    winfried: I think so

  490. Ge0rG

    the difference to c2s is probably that there are different retention times for data, and no explicit consent from the user

  491. Ge0rG

    oh, there is also the "transport component" use case

  492. jonasw

    mmm, a whatsapp transport <3

  493. jonasw

    for super fubar

  494. Ge0rG

    If I register with icq.evildomain.com, it will store/process my ICQ credentials

  495. winfried

    Ge0rG: that is an interesting one

  496. pep.

    Isn't that another normal s2s case?

  497. jonasw

    credentials, right

  498. pep.

    "We don't know what can happen on the other side"

  499. winfried

    pep.: that one is

  500. pep.

    And they won't get more than what we give them

  501. winfried

    but whatsapptransport.trusteddomain.com is different

  502. jonasw

    I wonder if we want a way to give consent to the processing done by an s2s domain. then there could be something pubsubby where clients can query which s2s domains the user consented with and show that in the UI. warn the user when sending a message to a non-consented domain with "review the privacy policy" and offer doing the in-band consent thing as per the EULA XEP.

  503. winfried

    because trusteddomain is transfering it to a third server

  504. daniel has left

  505. jonasw

    fwiw, I’m going to head out in four minutes.

  506. pep.

    How long do you want to go btw?

  507. pep.

    jonasw, I see value in that, I'm not sure it's not going to be an annoying process though

  508. pep.

    It's the annoying "yes I agree" that everybody is going to overlook in the end

  509. jonasw

    could be simplified in the UX of course, but technically we might need something like that

  510. jonasw

    and the server could even block stanzas to non-trusted s2s domains in strict deployments.

  511. lnj has left

  512. lnj has joined

  513. winfried

    maybe set a next session? Maybe we should wrap up this one and move on to the interesting stuff....

  514. pep.

    yep

  515. pep.

    Date of next?

  516. jonasw

    following weeks this time won’t work for me

  517. jonasw

    (I know I’m special with scheduling and I’m sorry)

  518. pep.

    I can do any

  519. Ge0rG

    winfried: actually I'd argue that a remote transport is subject to a direct relationship with the user as a data controller

  520. Maranda

    Can I make an addition to s2s message processing? If hints are made mandatory that could pose a disclaimer caveat, in which if a user doesn't give explicit consent to treatment by a remote entity and I flagged all messages with "no-store" or "no-permanent-storage" it could be argued the responsibility falls directly on the 3rd uncompliant party

  521. daniel has joined

  522. pep.

    Tomorrow? Wed 12:30 or 13:30CEST? (like before)

  523. Maranda

    Because that'll be an impeding problem for sure

  524. lumi has joined

  525. jonasw

    pep., tomorrow is Tue in my calendar

  526. jonasw

    Wed won’t work for me

  527. pep.

    jonasw, yes it was two questions :p

  528. jonasw

    I’d prefer the time we did today actually, I can arrange that any day except mondays.

  529. winfried

    both work for me

  530. pep.

    If same time, I can't do Tue/Thu

  531. jonasw

    (and wednesdays, sorry)

  532. jonasw

    but 12:30 CEST also works, except on wednesdays

  533. pep.

    Tue 12:30CEST then?

  534. jonasw

    wfm

  535. winfried

    wfm

  536. Ge0rG

    wfm

  537. jonasw

    \o/

  538. pep.

    *bang*

  539. jonasw

    okay, gotta head out, see you folks

  540. winfried

    cu!

  541. winfried

    thanks

  542. pep.

    I need my coffee now

  543. pep.

    You guys caught me early

  544. winfried

    pep.: :-D

  545. winfried

    pep.: are you taking notes/logs again? maybe coordinate who puts them in the Wiki

  546. pep.

    I'll try to come up with the minutes before noon

  547. pep.

    If you can put that on the wiki that'd be great :p

  548. alexis has left

  549. alexis has joined

  550. winfried

    I'll try, won't be home from work meetings till 0:30 today, but I will have some time in trains...

  551. Ge0rG

    trains. The place where you can work on the really important things, while telling your employer that you were too tired to do the after-meeting reports.

  552. rtq3 has left

  553. winfried

    Ge0rG: watch out, this MUC has a public log :-D

  554. Alex has joined

  555. alexis has left

  556. alexis has joined

  557. daniel

    > trains. The place where you can work on the really important things, while telling your employer that you were too tired to do the after-meeting reports. Trains. Those things that don't run if there is a signal failure. What ever that means. A rat bit through a cable maybe? Because apparently something as important as signals doesn't have redundancy

  558. Ge0rG

    winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime. Sometimes I have days when I need to get out of bed at 4AM, have some 12hrs of train time with a business meeting in the middle. They can't expect me to work 16hrs ;)

  559. Ge0rG

    daniel: the most frequent cause of delay at Deutsche Bahn is copper theft, I've heard.

  560. Ge0rG

    https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Kupferdiebe-kosten-Zeit-und-Geld-article10436256.html

  561. Valerian has left

  562. Valerian has joined

  563. alexis has left

  564. ralphm has joined

  565. Valerian has left

  566. Valerian has joined

  567. alexis has joined

  568. lnj has left

  569. moparisthebest has joined

  570. winfried

    daniel Ge0rG here in the netherlands it is / was a major cause for delays too. They do have more theft-proof infrastructure nowadays

  571. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  572. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  573. moparisthebest has joined

  574. Ge0rG

    winfried: do you have any news regarding the 112 app?

  575. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  576. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  577. Kev has left

  578. daniel has left

  579. daniel has joined

  580. Maranda

    And from my point of view, after glancing at it, GDPR is made to "make it impossibile" for complex decentralised environments to exist, so whatever will be done here will be for naught beside that when a user registers he'll get a message stating "do you give consent to treatment of your data by third parties", "I give consent" == s2s enabled, else s2s disabled.

  581. Maranda

    Fin.

  582. Ge0rG

    Maranda: your point of view is cynically pessimistic.

  583. Valerian has left

  584. Valerian has joined

  585. Ge0rG

    Like with the cookie directive. The intention was to inform users and to allow them to opt out. Then it was perverted by the "content providers" to blame the EU

  586. rtq3 has joined

  587. SaltyBones has left

  588. Maranda

    Ge0rG: too bad that it looks to me that for what we could ever attempt to do to be compliant, due to the nature of xmpp we could never fully be.

  589. Maranda

    But we will see as usual

  590. winfried

    Ge0rG: yes, I have the interview done and a concept-blog, still working on the whitepaper. They have to check with their security persons I don't publicise any confidental information before I can show you the results

  591. blabla has left

  592. xnyhps has joined

  593. Ge0rG

    winfried: I'm a security person. I can do a closed-group review ;)

  594. winfried

    Ge0rG: :-D

  595. winfried

    Ge0rG: I got a fascinating insight in the world of Belgian organisation and security. I can already reveal the organisation operating *all* of the telecom infrastructure in Belgium has more firewalls then employees ;-)

  596. winfried

    (all of the governmental telecom infrastructure)

  597. Ge0rG

    winfried: that sounds like much better data hygiene than T-Mobile Austria

  598. xnyhps has joined

  599. blabla has joined

  600. Valerian has left

  601. lskdjf has joined

  602. ralphm has joined

  603. xnyhps has joined

  604. ralphm has left

  605. Syndace has joined

  606. Syndace has joined

  607. ralphm has joined

  608. matlag has left

  609. xnyhps has joined

  610. Dave Cridland has left

  611. Dave Cridland has left

  612. rtq3 has left

  613. rtq3 has joined

  614. matlag has joined

  615. SaltyBones has left

  616. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  617. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  618. Alex has left

  619. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  620. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  621. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  622. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  623. Valerian has joined

  624. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  625. la|r|ma has joined

  626. MattJ has left

  627. lskdjf has joined

  628. MattJ has joined

  629. ludo has left

  630. ludo has joined

  631. moparisthebest has joined

  632. MattJ has left

  633. moparisthebest has joined

  634. MattJ has joined

  635. Alex has joined

  636. lnj has joined

  637. lumi has joined

  638. jubalh has joined

  639. ralphm has left

  640. ralphm has joined

  641. jubalh has joined

  642. jubalh has joined

  643. jubalh has left

  644. jubalh has joined

  645. jonasw

    > winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime.

  646. jonasw

    > winfried: my employer isn't paying overtime. […] have some 12hrs of train time with a business meeting in the middle. Ge0rG, you’re not good at advertising.

  647. jubalh has left

  648. jubalh has joined

  649. Ge0rG

    jonasw: my employer will gladly pay for the hotel room so you can arrive on the day before and have a pleasant day on site. I just prefer to sleep in my own bed.

  650. jonasw

    I hate hotels, exactly.

  651. Kev

    I often take my own pillow with me when I go to the office, if I'm driving (not so much with carrying it on the train).

  652. Ge0rG

    I don't hate them. I just love to sleep at home

  653. jonasw

    Ge0rG, yeah, that’s what i meant.

  654. jonasw

    also see what I wrote in the other muc.

  655. Ge0rG

    I'm still catching up with last night.

  656. jubalh has left

  657. jonasw imagines Ge0rG MAM-syncing into his head

  658. SaltyBones has left

  659. winfried

    Ge0rG: I was pretty impressed with the data infrastructure they are using, they even build a (rudimentary) application firewall for XMPP!

  660. Ge0rG has left

  661. valo has joined

  662. jonasw

    does conversations get consent from the user for using google cloud push? :)

  663. lumi has joined

  664. Dave Cridland has left

  665. Dave Cridland has left

  666. jonasw

    okay, so since I have merge powers, I need advice on what to do with this: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425

  667. jonasw

    I was actually happy that pidgin dropped off the list and was silently hoping that it wouldn’t re-appear.

  668. jonasw

    but apparently that didn’t happen

  669. jonasw

    so what to do now?

  670. jonasw

    possibly a question for board

  671. Ge0rG

    jonasw: the right way would be for the Board or some other Official Entity to say "no" to this request. The loophole workaround would be to reject the PR until it's vouched for by an identified pidgin developer

  672. jonasw

    Ge0rG, maybe you should add your "ceterum pidgin delendam esse" to board agenda instead of council ;)

  673. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I don't have the power to add things to Board's agenda

  674. Ge0rG

    jonasw: and I don't have the karma either. Whatever I wanted from Board so far was vetoed.

  675. marmistrz has joined

  676. jonasw

    Ge0rG, ask Guus or MattJ to add "Vote for elimination of all pidgin references from xmpp.org" to it :)

  677. jonasw

    Ge0rG, the laws of probability say that this time it’ll work!!k

  678. jonasw

    Ge0rG, the laws of probability say that this time it’ll work!!1

  679. Alex has left

  680. jubalh has joined

  681. jubalh has left

  682. ralphm has joined

  683. @Alacer has left

  684. @Alacer has joined

  685. flow

    Ge0rG, I note that there is a carbons plugin for libpurple: https://github.com/gkdr/carbons

  686. jonasw

    plugins for libpurple are always good.

  687. jonasw

    they rarely break anything or introduce security issues or something like that.

  688. Ge0rG

    flow: do you want to explain to my aunt how to install it?

  689. jubalh has joined

  690. marmistrz has joined

  691. Kev

    BTW, I think the easiest way to (potentially) resolve the Pidgin thing is to ask the project if they mind not being listed.

  692. Kev

    If they say "Yeah, that's fine, it's not very current", there's no need to make difficult decisions.

  693. jonasw

    Kev, they made a release a few weeks ago

  694. Kev

    Does that contradict anything I said? :)

  695. jonasw

    dunno

  696. jonasw

    I’m not awake.

  697. alexis has left

  698. alexis has joined

  699. Ge0rG

    Kev: the easiest way is to require somebody from the project to raise their voice in that PR.

  700. Ge0rG

    Kev: which is even less work than asking them, and which is what I implied in my PR comment and described above as a "loophole"

  701. alexis has left

  702. Martin has left

  703. alexis has joined

  704. Maranda

    So, dead-end for GDPR is.. 25th May again?

  705. jonasw

    yeah

  706. jonasw

    towel day

  707. Maranda

    And I see Ge0rG with an avatar feels strange compared to the usual "G"

  708. marmistrz has joined

  709. Maranda

    jonasw, ok I suppose I'll go with my cynical, pessimistic idea, until I see more definite developments.

  710. Maranda

    (which I do not)

  711. alexis has left

  712. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  713. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  714. alexis has joined

  715. Ge0rG

    Maranda: I suppose I need to restart prosody to get rid of it.

  716. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  717. Maranda

    Ge0rG: oh?

  718. alexis has left

  719. alexis has joined

  720. marmistrz has left

  721. ralphm has joined

  722. rtq3 has left

  723. valo has joined

  724. daniel has left

  725. daniel has joined

  726. vanitasvitae has left

  727. @Alacer has left

  728. Martin has joined

  729. ta has joined

  730. @Alacer has joined

  731. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: I'd like to put up "kill GC1.0" onto the Council agenda for this week. I've collected some numbers, and I'll write a mail if I manage somehow.

  732. Ge0rG

    I'm also sure there was some other thing I promised / intended to PR.

  733. @Alacer has left

  734. @Alacer has joined

  735. alexis has left

  736. alexis has joined

  737. marmistrz has joined

  738. Valerian has left

  739. Valerian has joined

  740. marmistrz has left

  741. daniel has left

  742. daniel has joined

  743. Valerian has left

  744. Valerian has joined

  745. jere has joined

  746. jere has left

  747. jere has joined

  748. alexis has left

  749. alexis has joined

  750. ludo has left

  751. ludo has joined

  752. j.r has joined

  753. alexis has left

  754. alexis has joined

  755. Guus has left

  756. ralphm has joined

  757. alexis has left

  758. alexis has joined

  759. rtq3 has joined

  760. marmistrz has joined

  761. alexis has joined

  762. Valerian has left

  763. Guus has left

  764. vanitasvitae has joined

  765. marmistrz has left

  766. SamWhited has left

  767. SamWhited has joined

  768. alexis has left

  769. SaltyBones has left

  770. alexis has joined

  771. Guus has left

  772. andy has left

  773. SamWhited has left

  774. SamWhited has joined

  775. alexis has left

  776. alexis has joined

  777. ralphm has joined

  778. waqas has joined

  779. Kev has left

  780. alexis has left

  781. alexis has joined

  782. ralphm has left

  783. Maranda has joined

  784. Maranda has joined

  785. Martin has left

  786. alexis has left

  787. ralphm has joined

  788. alexis has joined

  789. j.r has joined

  790. j.r has joined

  791. rtq3 has left

  792. jjrh has left

  793. SamWhited has left

  794. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  795. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  796. mimi89999 has joined

  797. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  798. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  799. Martin has joined

  800. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  801. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  802. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  803. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  804. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  805. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  806. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  807. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  808. Ge0rG

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/hours-after-zuck-deletion-scandal-facebook-announces-new-unsend-feature/ - this totally triggers the GDPR

  809. Ge0rG

    "You can't delete sent or received messages from someone else's device." -- unless you are Mark Zuckerberg.

  810. Andrew Nenakhov

    What's next, unsend email? 😂

  811. Andrew Nenakhov

    I always thought that features like last message correction are just silly

  812. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: that's old. https://support.office.com/en-us/article/recall-or-replace-an-email-message-that-you-sent-35027f88-d655-4554-b4f8-6c0729a723a0

  813. Ge0rG

    LMC is utter shit.

  814. Ge0rG

    LMC is actually useful in most cases.

  815. MattJ

    /load display_corrections

  816. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, > Message recall is available after you click Send and is available only if the recipient has an Exchange account within the same organization. Not really working in federated environment

  817. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: tough luck.

  818. Zash

    I motion that we all get ice cream! (everyone says +1) /correct I motion that we do evil things!

  819. daniel has left

  820. Maranda

    Ge0rG sucks.

  821. Maranda

    toads.

  822. Maranda

    🤔

  823. Ge0rG

    so.... everyone licking ice cream, except for Maranda who's licking toads?

  824. Maranda

    Ge0rG, who knows maybe they'll turn into something else, or kill me, or both.

  825. waqas

    I haven't had ice cream in days…

  826. Andrew Nenakhov

    I get a feeling that xsf has entered a steep decline

  827. Ge0rG

    I have a fridge full of ice cream at my old home, and no sensible logistic way to get it into the new home.

  828. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: the xsf MUC is not representative of the XSF.

  829. waqas

    Ge0rG: "sensible"

  830. Maranda

    Ge0rG, it's not?

  831. Maranda

    :O

  832. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: the only decline the XSF is facing is that of available time of its members.

  833. Maranda

    Disclaimer 😚 ™

  834. Maranda

    :P

  835. SamWhited has left

  836. jjrh has left

  837. jjrh has left

  838. jjrh has left

  839. Steve Kille has left

  840. Steve Kille has joined

  841. jjrh has left

  842. tim@boese-ban.de has left

  843. rtq3 has joined

  844. jjrh has left

  845. ralphm has joined

  846. Alex has left

  847. jonasw

    I just came back from having ice cream.

  848. jonasw

    that’s relevant, r ight?

  849. SamWhited has left

  850. Zash

    /topic Ice Cream

  851. jonasw

    that’s relevant, right?

  852. Ge0rG

    Luckily there is no XMPP off-topic MUC.

  853. jonasw

    /topic Chips

  854. j.r has joined

  855. Ge0rG

    Damn, I'm hungry. Only had some waffles for breakfast and no lunch. Time to make a break

  856. ThibG has joined

  857. j.r has left

  858. j.r has joined

  859. Valerian has joined

  860. j.r has left

  861. j.r has joined

  862. SamWhited has left

  863. jere has left

  864. SamWhited has left

  865. Me has joined

  866. ralphm has joined

  867. SamWhited has left

  868. matthewwild.co has joined

  869. rtq3 has left

  870. goffi has left

  871. goffi has joined

  872. Guus has left

  873. Ge0rG has left

  874. moparisthebest has left

  875. marmistrz has joined

  876. ludo has left

  877. ludo has joined

  878. j.r has joined

  879. SamWhited has left

  880. Guus has left

  881. marmistrz has joined

  882. ta has joined

  883. ThibG has left

  884. ThibG has joined

  885. ta has left

  886. sezuan has left

  887. SamWhited has left

  888. Guus has left

  889. Lance has joined

  890. jubalh has left

  891. Lance has left

  892. Lance has joined

  893. Lance has left

  894. Lance has joined

  895. rtq3 has joined

  896. lovetox has joined

  897. SamWhited has left

  898. Steve Kille has left

  899. Lance has left

  900. Lance has joined

  901. Steve Kille has left

  902. ralphm has joined

  903. tux has joined

  904. peter has joined

  905. j.r has joined

  906. Nekit has joined

  907. Dave Cridland has left

  908. Me has left

  909. matthewwild.co has left

  910. matthewwild.co has joined

  911. Me has joined

  912. Steve Kille has joined

  913. Guus has left

  914. j.r has joined

  915. Guus has left

  916. andy has joined

  917. Martin has left

  918. jubalh has joined

  919. SamWhited has left

  920. Guus has left

  921. jere has left

  922. ibikk has joined

  923. marc has joined

  924. winfried has left

  925. SaltyBones has left

  926. SaltyBones has left

  927. j.r has joined

  928. Kev has left

  929. SaltyBones has joined

  930. goffi has left

  931. SamWhited has left

  932. j.r has joined

  933. Nekit has left

  934. Nekit has joined

  935. Guus has left

  936. marc has left

  937. Ge0rG has left

  938. Dave Cridland has left

  939. Nekit has left

  940. Nekit has joined

  941. Dave Cridland has left

  942. Dave Cridland has left

  943. Guus has left

  944. ralphm has joined

  945. Maranda poked out a "pessimistical" mod_gdpr.

  946. Maranda commits.

  947. moparisthebest

    what does it do?

  948. moparisthebest

    guess I could just peruse code...

  949. rtq3 has left

  950. Maranda

    for now just disables s2s if you don't agree to conditions and 3rd party treatment of your data.

  951. j.r has joined

  952. rtq3 has joined

  953. j.r has joined

  954. tux has left

  955. Syndace has joined

  956. daniel has left

  957. daniel has joined

  958. SamWhited has left

  959. lovetox

    if a XEP says stuff like : Given the foregoing discussion, it is evident that an entity could receive any combination of iq:register, x:data, and x:oob namespaces

  960. lovetox

    then i know im in for a lot of fun

  961. moparisthebest

    what are email providers doing with their identical S2S problem?

  962. j.r has left

  963. marc has joined

  964. j.r has joined

  965. Valerian has left

  966. Valerian has joined

  967. Valerian has left

  968. SamWhited has left

  969. Maranda

    https://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/6044add55d8acfef86f4210ceae27cd6ca178a3f/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua --> completely untested, though it should be portable to Prosody easily enough.

  970. rtq3 has left

  971. alexis has left

  972. alexis has joined

  973. SamWhited has left

  974. jonasw

    moparisthebest, nobody knows

  975. jonasw

    moparisthebest, but the expectations might be different for email which might be relevant for law stuff

  976. moparisthebest

    why would expectations matter? they are 100% identical as far as I can tell

  977. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I’m not sure. people might not expect their IM to be stored indefinitely on some server. for mail, this might be different.

  978. moparisthebest

    why? maybe they think everyone uses pop3 and has the 'delete from server' box ticked?

  979. Zash

    moparisthebest: wasn't the box for "don't delete from server"?

  980. moparisthebest

    depends on the client I guess :)

  981. moparisthebest

    I'm just saying from a technical perspective, with regard to s2s issue, email and xmpp are identical, and since email is far more widely used by much bigger companies, I feel like we should just see what they are doing

  982. alexis has left

  983. marc has left

  984. alexis has joined

  985. ralphm has joined

  986. Dave Cridland has left

  987. Maranda

    Identical me... thinks not.

  988. Maranda

    Comparing mail data with a xmpp s2s stream is weird at best.

  989. SamWhited has left

  990. Maranda

    One it's just a singler envelope the other... is... a stream? With potentially much more data passing by.

  991. Maranda mutters says the word.

  992. marmistrz has left

  993. moparisthebest

    Maranda, sorry, how is it not identical?

  994. Maranda

    I just said.

  995. moparisthebest

    you send individual messages to a federated server

  996. moparisthebest

    they may or may not keep them

  997. moparisthebest

    the 'potentially more data' seems totally wrong too

  998. Maranda

    You just send individual messages? Oh rly?

  999. alexis has left

  1000. moparisthebest

    how often do you send/recieve xmpp messages with 25mb attachments sent with bob or whatever :P

  1001. jonasw

    I tend to agree that they’re pretty much identical regarding the data which passes.

  1002. moparisthebest

    that happens regularly with email

  1003. alexis has joined

  1004. Maranda

    I repeat "You just send individual messages? Oh rly?"

  1005. Dave Cridland has left

  1006. Dave Cridland has left

  1007. moparisthebest

    yes, both email and xmpp just send individual messages, right?

  1008. Maranda

    Hmmm nay, but okay.

  1009. Dave Cridland has left

  1010. moparisthebest

    Maranda, how do you think they are different? because xmpp often sends multiple messages over a single connection?

  1011. moparisthebest

    because smtp does that too, and so does imap, pop3, etc

  1012. Maranda

    <incoming-routed presence="2078391" message="644568" iq="1050302"/> <outgoing-routed presence="428397" message="152432" iq="985607"/>

  1013. Maranda coughs.

  1014. moparisthebest

    that's 2 messages I guess, still not getting the point

  1015. Maranda

    .

  1016. SamWhited

    Please try to explain with words and not just examples, because I don't understand what you mean either.

  1017. Lance has left

  1018. Lance has joined

  1019. Dave Cridland has left

  1020. Maranda

    I don't think I have to explain XMPP (says even just XMPP) isn't just about messages, and you don't send exactly just messages actually you send much more of the other two.

  1021. Maranda

    And there's a lot of data in *those two*

  1022. Dave Cridland has left

  1023. Dave Cridland has joined

  1024. moparisthebest

    when you boil it all down though, it's just message passing

  1025. Maranda

    if you say so.

  1026. moparisthebest

    are you saying you also send presence and things?

  1027. moparisthebest

    how is that different than an email like 'hey, I started work today' or whatever

  1028. Maranda

    Maybe I don't operate the sending directly which poses *much* of a difference compared to e-mail since those are completely (or almost) abstracted from users UI wise

  1029. Kev

    I think when you're potentially talking about clients broadcasting your current location to all of your contacts, or whether you're WFH or in the office, that *is* a different use case than email.

  1030. Maranda

    and still for GDPR we have to take that data/meta-data in account

  1031. Maranda

    so if you keep saying xmpp is like e-mail okay.

  1032. moparisthebest

    ok, so you are saying extra types of data get sent with xmpp without user intervention than email?

  1033. moparisthebest

    *that's* an argument I can follow

  1034. alexis has joined

  1035. Dave Cridland has left

  1036. moparisthebest

    still, I believe normal message sending should be the same as email, so we could copy email providers for that, and maybe your mod_gdpr could just filter everything but normal messages or something?

  1037. Dave Cridland has left

  1038. jonasw

    ... except that lots of stuff doesn’t work with only normal messages.

  1039. jonasw

    like OMEMO.

  1040. Maranda

    mod_gdpr blocks everything going s2s, before user consented to the agreement and mainly 3rd parties treatment of his data passing by s2s.

  1041. jonasw

    how does the user consent, and which agreement?

  1042. moparisthebest

    yep, but perhaps you can sort some things out to what leaks (meta)data or not

  1043. Maranda

    https://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/master/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua#L19

  1044. Maranda

    jonasw, ^

  1045. Ge0rG

    Maranda: you need to gain consent for each individual s2s domain, and link to their respective data privacy policy.

  1046. Dave Cridland has left

  1047. moparisthebest

    that seems utterly impossible Ge0rG

  1048. Maranda

    Ge0rG, do I? Me thinks that the above is legally valid.

  1049. SamWhited has left

  1050. Ge0rG

    Also, I don't understand how email and xmpp are different either, from a data protection / data retention point of view

  1051. Dave Cridland has left

  1052. Dave Cridland has left

  1053. jonasw

    .oO(plot twist: user is currently negotiating for a power exchange relationship and replies with "I consent" to the wrong message.)

  1054. jonasw

    Maranda, I don’t think that works either. you need to make the user aware of the specific data and metadata which may be sent to the remote domain.

  1055. Dave Cridland has left

  1056. jonasw

    users might not be aware that the timestamp of their last online presence would be shared for exampale

  1057. waqas has left

  1058. Maranda

    Ge0rG, it's implicit that if a from capuleti.is user chooses to have a contact to romeo.is then whatever data gets shared with romeo.is is *his/her sole* responsibility and that the data going to romeo.is will be treated by romeo.is

  1059. Maranda

    jonasw, that is already done by the ToS

  1060. jonasw

    Maranda, which ToS?

  1061. Maranda

    The one which I'll add options to add you can't cover everything In-Band, else I need to send a never ending wall.

  1062. Maranda

    The one which I'll add options to add you can't cover everything In-Band, else I need to send a never ending wall of text.

  1063. jonasw

    that’s why we were discussing the EULA XEP

  1064. alexis has left

  1065. Dave Cridland has left

  1066. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1067. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1068. alexis has joined

  1069. Maranda

    jonasw, which brings to the problem good luck getting every implementation and expecially every server federating to compliant by the 25th.

  1070. Dave Cridland has left

  1071. moparisthebest

    yea that's really insane

  1072. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1073. moparisthebest

    shouldn't it, at most, be an explanation of federation?

  1074. moparisthebest

    (if you send something to bob@example.org refer to example.org for how they manage your data)

  1075. Dave Cridland has left

  1076. moparisthebest

    again, what are email providers doing? they won't be doing 'federated eulas' I can almost guarantee

  1077. Dave Cridland has left

  1078. jonasw

    moparisthebest, true, but they may be gambling on the fact that nobody is going to risk to burn down all of email with a lawsuit.

  1079. Dave Cridland has left

  1080. Dave Cridland has left

  1081. Maranda

    Problem is that the deadline is too near now we should have moved as soon as GDPR got out in 2016 imho

  1082. jonasw

    yeah

  1083. moparisthebest

    that's a fine bet for my person email, but gmail/hotmail surely would just have to pay germany a few trillion dollars or something

  1084. Maranda didn't even know about it before just recently.

  1085. moparisthebest

    and they've surely had lawyers on this for years?

  1086. Dave Cridland has left

  1087. Dave Cridland has left

  1088. moparisthebest

    federated EULAs sound like a friggin nightmare too

  1089. moparisthebest

    "XMPP sucks so bad, I need a lawyer every time I have to add a new contact"

  1090. waqas has joined

  1091. Zash

    What about plain ol' IP routing?

  1092. Lance has left

  1093. Maranda

    but still as soon as there's a draft of "EULA" xep I'll link to that jonasw (obviously)

  1094. Chobbes has joined

  1095. moparisthebest

    that's true Zash , every IP/port combo needs another EULA, also from every switch/router along the way, right?

  1096. Zash

    Yes

  1097. jonasw

    Zash, yeah

  1098. moparisthebest

    I think even the concept of a EULA xep is a terrible idea for the above reason

  1099. moparisthebest

    if widely implemented, it'd kill xmpp

  1100. jonasw

    I was thinking about that too during the last meeting. I wonder if we’re colossally missing something here.

  1101. jonasw

    moparisthebest, fundamentally, the EULA XEP was meant not for federation but for in-band registration

  1102. moparisthebest

    does anyone know anyone that works at gmail or hotmail or something?

  1103. rtq3 has joined

  1104. jonasw

    unfortunately not

  1105. Dave Cridland has left

  1106. moparisthebest

    jonasw, ah well for in-band registration it's a good idea, it's just a terrible idea for federation

  1107. alexis has left

  1108. alexis has joined

  1109. Maranda

    an EULA xep could not need implementation

  1110. SamWhited has left

  1111. Maranda

    if it's just a descriptive xep

  1112. Dave Cridland has left

  1113. Maranda

    like what data types are there, how to act in case of data transiting from a to b, who to contact in that case etc.

  1114. Maranda

    like what data types are there, how to act in case of data transiting from a to b, who to contact in that case, who is responsible of what when etc.

  1115. Maranda

    there's a fair amount of documents like that XEP wise

  1116. jonasw

    Maranda, the idea was to have an additional IQ exchange before/during registration, where the key points of a GDPR-EULA (e.g. retention times, data which is persisted/not persisted ,…) is presented as structured data (XML). this allows clients to format the key points neatly. in addition, the full terms can be provided via one or more URLs.

  1117. Dave Cridland has left

  1118. moparisthebest

    and then you've made the protocol user-hostile for what some non-lawyers think some lawyers wrote in a jurisdiction that controls a small fraction of the internet

  1119. moparisthebest

    sounds like a terrible plan

  1120. Maranda

    Which is good if the deadend wasn't in a month and a half

  1121. jonasw

    moparisthebest, how is that user-hostile?

  1122. Maranda

    Or less

  1123. jonasw

    I think being aware of what the service does with your data is very user-friendly.

  1124. moparisthebest

    jonasw, "XMPP sucks so bad, I need a lawyer every time I have to add a new contact"

  1125. jonasw

    I am not talking about federation, moparisthebest.

  1126. moparisthebest

    "with whatscrap I just type in a contact and start chatting"

  1127. Maranda

    So at the very least we should have a document to link at, me thinks

  1128. moparisthebest

    well again, for user registration I totally agree

  1129. SamWhited

    FWIW, XEP-0389 was designed with EULAs in mind. You could probably implement it already with that.

  1130. ralphm has joined

  1131. alexis has left

  1132. Dave Cridland has left

  1133. alexis has joined

  1134. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I am not talking about federation.

  1135. Dave Cridland has left

  1136. Maranda

    No time for xep-0389

  1137. moparisthebest

    ok, then I think it's a good idea

  1138. Maranda

    I feel

  1139. moparisthebest

    I just really don't want federation crippled due to some legislators with a superiority complex, and a likely wrong reading of the law by non-lawyers

  1140. Dave Cridland has left

  1141. Maranda

    Well I don't have 200k

  1142. Maranda

    😎

  1143. moparisthebest

    try voting for better people, or move :)

  1144. moparisthebest

    I mean we aren't writing code to cripple XMPP to china or russian standards

  1145. jonasw

    moparisthebest, I like the legislation actually.

  1146. Maranda

    All I want as a server operator is at least a blanket covering most of my ass

  1147. moparisthebest

    why write code to cripple XMPP to EU standards

  1148. Maranda

    That's all we need in the immediate time anyways

  1149. Maranda

    Because as I redundantly said: there's not much time left

  1150. Dave Cridland has left

  1151. Dave Cridland has left

  1152. valo has left

  1153. alexis has left

  1154. Guus has left

  1155. alexis has joined

  1156. Lance has joined

  1157. jere has joined

  1158. Dave Cridland has left

  1159. Dave Cridland has left

  1160. Dave Cridland has joined

  1161. jere has joined

  1162. SamWhited has left

  1163. Dave Cridland has left

  1164. Maranda

    moparisthebest, we need to get informative documentation done first, the most problematic bits are the data types descriptions, behaviour and garden-to-garden transits

  1165. moparisthebest

    not sure exactly what you mean, but are you still just talking about registration?

  1166. moparisthebest

    in general when I've had to present lawyer-stuff to users, they like to lay stuff out themselves, and I always end up providing text as written

  1167. moparisthebest

    just a giant wall of text...

  1168. Maranda

    No, I said it anything protocol dependant wont see the light by the 25th

  1169. moparisthebest

    just turn off IBR and make them sign up with a web page?

  1170. moparisthebest

    the free world can continue to support IBR

  1171. sezuan has left

  1172. Dave Cridland has left

  1173. Maranda

    Because beside the servers, there's clients and the "Pidgin" effect

  1174. pep.

    moparisthebest: make them sign up what with a web pave

  1175. pep.

    Page*

  1176. pep.

    Please do provide input during the meetings if you have insight

  1177. Maranda

    The registration method is irrelevant we need documentation, and stuff to add to single service agreements

  1178. Maranda

    In the mean time

  1179. pep.

    moparisthebest: and it's not just to new users

  1180. moparisthebest

    well, web page registration lets you display a proper terms of service, and record them agreeing to it?

  1181. pep.

    Yeah but what goes into the EULA

  1182. Maranda

    moparisthebest, yes

  1183. pep.

    That's the whole poiny

  1184. andy has left

  1185. moparisthebest

    pep., ask your lawyer

  1186. pep.

    Point

  1187. Maranda

    But we need to know what to add to the service agreements...

  1188. alexis has left

  1189. moparisthebest

    hopefully just explaining how it works would be good enough, but who knows, IANAL

  1190. Maranda

    And if there's a descriptive EULA xep at least we can link that

  1191. pep.

    Well we're trying to see if we can figure parts of it by ourselves. Ultimately yes, we'll ask lawyers

  1192. alexis has joined

  1193. pep.

    And then try to provide templates for operators out there, with the usual disclaimers

  1194. moparisthebest

    if you are in the 'writing code to solve it' phase then you are too far, should have already asked a lawyer

  1195. pep.

    We're not

  1196. moparisthebest

    some people are :) https://github.com/maranda/metronome/blob/master/plugins/mod_gdpr.lua

  1197. Maranda

    That's a draft

  1198. Zash

    > The software is provided "as is", without warranty of any kind etc...

  1199. rion has left

  1200. Guus has left

  1201. Maranda

    And it's very "user friendly" as it's not protocol dependant

  1202. marmistrz has left

  1203. Maranda

    (problem is the relevant bits to add there)

  1204. Maranda

    Zash, if it was that easy

  1205. Maranda

    Apparently it's not

  1206. Dave Cridland has left

  1207. mimi89999 has left

  1208. Kev has left

  1209. ThibG has left

  1210. ThibG has joined

  1211. Dave Cridland has left

  1212. alexis has left

  1213. alexis has joined

  1214. Maranda

    moparisthebest, but yes essentially that module should cover the edgy cases, in where if users stay in your garden it's "easy". When they get outside it's troubles they wrote the regulation specifically that way

  1215. SamWhited has left

  1216. Dave Cridland has left

  1217. Maranda

    (And they'll get prompted the first time they try to cross the wall)

  1218. Lance has left

  1219. pep.

    What really annoys/confuses me, is that everybody talks about companies when this is going to reach a lot more than that

  1220. marmistrz has left

  1221. Guus has left

  1222. Dave Cridland has left

  1223. moparisthebest

    that's the problem, they seem to have written the legislation to specifically target walled gardens like facebook/whatsapp etc

  1224. moparisthebest

    and it does a good job at that

  1225. moparisthebest

    but they totally ignored federated systems, and it seems to almost outright ban federated systems

  1226. moparisthebest

    which, ignoring xmpp is something I could see legislators doing, ignoring email is not

  1227. lumi has joined

  1228. moparisthebest

    except they probably think 'email' and 'gmail' are the same thing...

  1229. Zash

    Has anyone reached out to those involved in drafting this and asked "how does this relate to email?"

  1230. Dave Cridland has left

  1231. Zash

    IIRC they used Outlook (with web thing)

  1232. Zash

    OWA?

  1233. alexis has left

  1234. Zash

    The FOSS-friendly people I stayed with were developing something to make it usable with Thunderbird

  1235. alexis has joined

  1236. rtq3 has left

  1237. rtq3 has joined

  1238. sezuan has joined

  1239. Dave Cridland has left

  1240. rion has joined

  1241. moparisthebest

    davmail is what I used to use for that

  1242. Maranda has joined

  1243. Lance has joined

  1244. Dave Cridland has left

  1245. Dave Cridland has left

  1246. rion has left

  1247. Dave Cridland has left

  1248. ludo has left

  1249. ludo has joined

  1250. alexis has left

  1251. rion has joined

  1252. Dave Cridland has left

  1253. alexis has joined

  1254. ralphm has joined

  1255. Dave Cridland has left

  1256. lnj has left

  1257. Dave Cridland has left

  1258. Guus has left

  1259. Dave Cridland has left

  1260. Dave Cridland has left

  1261. SamWhited has left

  1262. alexis has left

  1263. Lance has left

  1264. alexis has joined

  1265. Dave Cridland has left

  1266. ludo has left

  1267. ludo has joined

  1268. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1269. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1270. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1271. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1272. Maranda has left

  1273. daniel has left

  1274. Dave Cridland has left

  1275. daniel has joined

  1276. Dave Cridland has left

  1277. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1278. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1279. marc has left

  1280. alexis has left

  1281. alexis has joined

  1282. Lance has joined

  1283. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  1284. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  1285. Holger has left

  1286. Dave Cridland has left

  1287. rion has left

  1288. ibikk has joined

  1289. Dave Cridland has left

  1290. marc has joined

  1291. Dave Cridland has left

  1292. Ge0rG

    The new CLOUD Act allows US agencies to obtain data hosted in Europe. I wonder how many days it will take for Russia to create a comparable legal framework.

  1293. lovetox

    but i read EU wanted to do this frist

  1294. lovetox

    but i read EU wanted to do this first

  1295. lovetox

    get data stored in US

  1296. lovetox

    so everybody gets all the data :)

  1297. alexis has left

  1298. Dave Cridland has left

  1299. alexis has joined

  1300. Dave Cridland has left

  1301. ralphm has joined

  1302. blabla has left

  1303. blabla has left

  1304. blabla has joined

  1305. Dave Cridland has left

  1306. moparisthebest

    the solution is for everyone to run their own server in their house lovetox :P

  1307. Lance has left

  1308. Zash

    \o/

  1309. Dave Cridland has left

  1310. sezuan has left

  1311. alexis has left

  1312. lovetox

    im already using no smartphone, facebook, i just have to get rid of gmail somehow

  1313. lovetox

    then im underground

  1314. Dave Cridland has left

  1315. moparisthebest

    lovetox, I cut the gmail cord in 2013, just setup postfix/dovecot on your house-server

  1316. alexis has joined

  1317. SamWhited has left

  1318. SamWhited has left

  1319. moparisthebest

    you can still have gmail forward mails to your new address, and you can have postfix send outgoing mails from your gmail through gmail's servers until you have everything fully migrated

  1320. marmistrz has left

  1321. Dave Cridland has left

  1322. lovetox

    im have my own domain, but i fear spam a bit

  1323. lnj has left

  1324. lovetox

    nothing goes over google spam filter

  1325. moparisthebest

    it's not that bad, spamassasin+amavis

  1326. moparisthebest

    thunderbird pretty much always gets whatever leaks through those

  1327. Dave Cridland has left

  1328. lovetox

    how nice would it be if we had all pgp encryption on email

  1329. lovetox

    google announced some kind of plugin for gamil years ago

  1330. moparisthebest

    it's not as easy as setting up an xmpp server, there are more parts, and they tend to be crustier

  1331. Dave Cridland has left

  1332. moparisthebest

    but you only have to do it once

  1333. blabla has left

  1334. blabla has left

  1335. Dave Cridland has left

  1336. blabla has joined

  1337. Maranda

    well it's tricky to be spam proof, but not impossible.

  1338. Dave Cridland has left

  1339. Dave Cridland has left

  1340. Alex has left

  1341. waqas has left

  1342. waqas has joined

  1343. Maranda

    (for e-mail)

  1344. alexis has left

  1345. lovetox

    but with email is like, even if you host youself, 40% of all your mails are sent to gmail adresses anyway

  1346. lovetox

    so they still get all emails

  1347. rtq3 has left

  1348. rtq3 has joined

  1349. Dave Cridland has left

  1350. alexis has joined

  1351. blabla has left

  1352. blabla has left

  1353. blabla has left

  1354. blabla has joined

  1355. alexis has left

  1356. alexis has joined

  1357. Dave Cridland has left

  1358. blabla has left

  1359. blabla has left

  1360. blabla has left

  1361. blabla has joined

  1362. Dave Cridland has left

  1363. Dave Cridland has left

  1364. Dave Cridland has left

  1365. Dave Cridland has left

  1366. blabla has left

  1367. SamWhited has joined

  1368. Dave Cridland has left

  1369. remko has left

  1370. alexis has left

  1371. alexis has joined

  1372. jubalh has joined

  1373. Dave Cridland has left

  1374. Dave Cridland has left

  1375. moparisthebest has joined

  1376. ludo has left

  1377. jubalh has left

  1378. ludo has joined

  1379. Dave Cridland has left

  1380. moparisthebest has joined

  1381. ralphm has joined

  1382. alexis has left

  1383. Dave Cridland has left

  1384. alexis has joined

  1385. jubalh has joined

  1386. SamWhited has left

  1387. marmistrz has left

  1388. SamWhited has joined

  1389. Dave Cridland has left

  1390. blabla has left

  1391. Dave Cridland has left

  1392. alexis has left

  1393. Chobbes has joined

  1394. alexis has joined

  1395. Dave Cridland has left

  1396. Maranda has joined

  1397. rtq3 has left

  1398. rtq3 has joined

  1399. Dave Cridland has left

  1400. marmistrz has joined

  1401. ta has left

  1402. ludo has left

  1403. Dave Cridland has left

  1404. alexis has left

  1405. alexis has joined

  1406. jjrh has left

  1407. Dave Cridland has left

  1408. vanitasvitae has left

  1409. jjrh has left

  1410. Dave Cridland has left

  1411. blabla has joined

  1412. Dave Cridland has left

  1413. Dave Cridland has left

  1414. Dave Cridland has left

  1415. alexis has left

  1416. Lance has joined

  1417. Chobbes has joined

  1418. Chobbes has joined

  1419. blabla has left

  1420. blabla has left

  1421. blabla has joined

  1422. Dave Cridland has left

  1423. alexis has joined

  1424. ibikk has left

  1425. blabla has left

  1426. Tobias has joined

  1427. blabla has joined

  1428. Dave Cridland has left

  1429. Dave Cridland has left

  1430. SamWhited has left

  1431. alexis has left

  1432. Dave Cridland has left

  1433. alexis has joined

  1434. vanitasvitae has left

  1435. Dave Cridland has left

  1436. Daniel_W has joined

  1437. Dave Cridland has left

  1438. Dave Cridland has left

  1439. alexis has left

  1440. winfried has left

  1441. winfried has left

  1442. Dave Cridland has left

  1443. Maranda

    hmmm lovetox

  1444. alexis has joined

  1445. SamWhited has left

  1446. ralphm has joined

  1447. efrit has left

  1448. Dave Cridland has left

  1449. Dave Cridland has left

  1450. winfried has left

  1451. Dave Cridland has left

  1452. Dave Cridland has left

  1453. Kev has joined

  1454. alexis has left

  1455. Dave Cridland has left

  1456. alexis has joined

  1457. marc has left

  1458. Dave Cridland has left

  1459. winfried has joined

  1460. vanitasvitae has joined

  1461. Dave Cridland has left

  1462. Dave Cridland has joined

  1463. alexis has left

  1464. alexis has joined

  1465. SamWhited has left

  1466. jubalh has joined

  1467. winfried has joined

  1468. Me has left

  1469. Me has joined

  1470. moparisthebest has joined

  1471. moparisthebest has joined

  1472. jubalh has joined

  1473. rtq3 has left

  1474. Me has left

  1475. winfried has left

  1476. Syndace has joined

  1477. valo has joined

  1478. Dave Cridland has left

  1479. matthewwild.co has left

  1480. alexis has left

  1481. Nekit has left

  1482. alexis has joined

  1483. SaltyBones has left

  1484. Dave Cridland has left

  1485. SamWhited has left

  1486. Nekit has left

  1487. efrit has joined

  1488. moparisthebest has joined

  1489. moparisthebest has joined

  1490. Dave Cridland has left

  1491. Dave Cridland has left

  1492. alexis has left

  1493. alexis has joined

  1494. winfried has left

  1495. ralphm has joined

  1496. alexis has left

  1497. alexis has joined

  1498. valo has left

  1499. ibikk has joined

  1500. jubalh has left

  1501. pep.

    lovetox: that's true, though if we say that we might as well give up already

  1502. pep.

    Even for xmpp

  1503. lovetox

    why google dropped xmpp support :D

  1504. lovetox

    we are save here

  1505. Zash

    Extensible Mango and Potato Planters

  1506. pep.

    I mean it's not just true for email but for lots of things.. If I thought it wasn't worth setting up my own mail service because "40% goes through Google anyway", I think giving up on life wouldn't be really far ahead :x

  1507. pep.

    Lots of things go through Google, Facebook and whatnots

  1508. pep.

    Zash: I'm going to signup for this giant meteor party I think

  1509. Zash

    I'm not running my own email to keep Google from seeing my emails. I'm doing it so that I don't have to care about some provider shutting down.

  1510. lovetox

    i would run my own server if it was just my email

  1511. Zash

    To have control over my own ifrastructure. To not have to wait for someone else to fix my problems.

  1512. lovetox

    but whole family uses the same domain

  1513. pep.

    Zash: sure I'm not saying that's why I do it, or the only reason

  1514. lovetox

    they will not understand if it doesnt work because i fucked it up again ^^

  1515. alexis has left

  1516. alexis has joined

  1517. Zash

    My mom uses my email server. Most recent issue she had was some unexplained issue that I'm going to write off as "Android weirdness"

  1518. Zash

    "It doesn't work" - I try, it works fine.

  1519. lovetox has left

  1520. lovetox has joined

  1521. winfried has left

  1522. SamWhited has left

  1523. Dave Cridland has left

  1524. alexis has left

  1525. alexis has joined

  1526. Dave Cridland has left

  1527. Dave Cridland has left

  1528. Kev has left

  1529. Dave Cridland has left

  1530. Dave Cridland has left

  1531. alexis has left

  1532. alexis has joined

  1533. Dave Cridland has left

  1534. alexis has left

  1535. SamWhited has left

  1536. alexis has joined

  1537. Maranda

    Zash, that's not Android Weirdness, it's called "Mom Weirdness"

  1538. Dave Cridland has left

  1539. Maranda

    It's common to every mom (mine too), with the exact same symptoms: "It doesn't work" - I arrive, try it works fine.

  1540. Maranda

    :P

  1541. Maranda has left

  1542. alexis has left

  1543. alexis has joined

  1544. Dave Cridland has left

  1545. ta has left

  1546. alexis has left

  1547. Dave Cridland has left

  1548. alexis has joined

  1549. SamWhited has left

  1550. ralphm has joined

  1551. blabla has left

  1552. alexis has left

  1553. alexis has joined

  1554. Dave Cridland has left

  1555. SamWhited has left

  1556. Dave Cridland has left

  1557. Holger has left

  1558. alexis has left

  1559. Dave Cridland has left

  1560. alexis has joined

  1561. matlag has joined

  1562. matlag has joined

  1563. Dave Cridland has left

  1564. SaltyBones has left

  1565. SaltyBones has joined

  1566. ralphm has left

  1567. alexis has left

  1568. alexis has joined

  1569. Dave Cridland has left

  1570. SamWhited has left

  1571. Dave Cridland has left

  1572. ralphm has joined

  1573. Dave Cridland has left

  1574. Dave Cridland has left

  1575. Dave Cridland has joined

  1576. Dave Cridland has left

  1577. Dave Cridland has joined

  1578. alexis has left

  1579. Dave Cridland has left

  1580. Dave Cridland has joined

  1581. alexis has joined

  1582. Dave Cridland has left

  1583. Dave Cridland has left

  1584. Dave Cridland has joined

  1585. alexis has left

  1586. Dave Cridland has left

  1587. Dave Cridland has joined

  1588. alexis has joined

  1589. Dave Cridland has left

  1590. Dave Cridland has left

  1591. Dave Cridland has left

  1592. moparisthebest has joined

  1593. lovetox has left

  1594. UsL has left

  1595. Chobbes has joined

  1596. moparisthebest has joined

  1597. alexis has left

  1598. alexis has joined

  1599. Dave Cridland has left

  1600. rtq3 has joined

  1601. waqas has left

  1602. ralphm has joined

  1603. Dave Cridland has left

  1604. pep.

    Not sure a CC from members to operators is great, they can't all reply otherwise

  1605. pep.

    Well they can break remove members@ ~

  1606. pep.

    I'll just go to sleep..

  1607. alexis has left

  1608. alexis has joined

  1609. ralphm has joined

  1610. lumi has joined

  1611. alexis has left

  1612. Dave Cridland has left

  1613. alexis has joined

  1614. UsL has joined

  1615. rtq3 has left

  1616. Dave Cridland has left

  1617. rtq3 has joined

  1618. jjrh has left

  1619. alexis has left

  1620. alexis has joined

  1621. peter has left