XSF Discussion - 2018-04-10

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  190. Ge0rG Kev: is there any progress on the 0050 PRs?
  191. Kev There isn't.
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  196. Ge0rG Kev: any more ideas regarding the pidgin re-addition to the client list?
  197. Kev I haven't given it any thought, do I need to?
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  244. Ge0rG I wonder if it's possible to instrument something like shodan to search for XMPP servers.
  245. MattJ Sure
  246. Ge0rG I mean, we need to send the client banner first, right?
  247. MattJ I've used it to discover Prosody instances
  248. Ge0rG MattJ: oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about it.
  249. MattJ I don't know exactly what it sends, but it triggers an error response
  250. MattJ Prosody's particular error message is unique, so searching for it yields results
  251. Ge0rG `GET / HTTP/1.0`?
  252. MattJ Quite possibly
  253. MattJ I suspect it understands XMPP somewhat though, but obviously you can't determine the host from the IP address so it still doesn't work
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  306. pep. gdpr meeting in ~5
  307. jonasw what
  308. jonasw crap
  309. jonasw I totally forgot
  310. jonasw I need to marinate some meat first, so I’ll be a bit AFK-ish
  311. pep. it's 12:30CEST right?
  312. jonasw yeah
  313. pep. hehe
  314. jonasw taking the laptop with me
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  317. jonasw Ge0rG, winfried, ping
  318. winfried Guys, sorry, I will be the available in 10 minutes
  319. pep. I'll put stuff on the wiki then, I sent the minutes quite late yesterday
  320. jonasw sounds good
  321. Ge0rG 10 minutes for me as well
  322. jonasw what a perfect fit
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  325. Ge0rG pep.: 👍
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  328. pep. Hmm, so we already had a bit on 1.1c for s2s in the wiki, not as detailed
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  330. winfried here I am
  331. Ge0rG AOL!
  332. winfried hears an echo from long ago
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  335. Ge0rG It looks like we all might be there.
  336. winfried yes
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  338. jonasw .
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  340. pep. !
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  343. pep. *bang*?
  344. jonasw baaang
  345. jonasw winfried, are you going to chair?
  346. winfried *bang*
  347. winfried do we have enough on 1.1a-c?
  348. pep. S2S outbound on 1.1c?
  349. pep. did we cover that?
  350. pep. I guess the inbound covers more or less both actually
  351. Ge0rG what happened to transports?
  352. winfried Ge0rG: yes, noticed that one too
  353. winfried transport will be a processing to cover in c2s too!
  354. Ge0rG 1.1c inbound and outbound is symmetrical, i.e. there is no need to differentiate. we need to differentiate in 1.1d though
  355. winfried yesx
  356. pep. fair enough
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  358. winfried With the note of transports, I think we should move to 1.1d, where the fun begins...
  359. Ge0rG winfried: do you have an update on the "third contries" part?
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  361. winfried Ge0rG: yes
  362. winfried opens page 19 of his bible
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  364. Ge0rG braces for liturgy recital
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  366. winfried criteria: 3.2a offering services to EU citizens or 3.2b monitoring behaviour within the EU
  367. jonasw I’m fully here now
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  369. winfried 3.2a: just offering in english or so is not enough, but a multiple of factors like english and accepting euro's and shipping to the eu is
  370. jonasw winfried, what would the equivalent of "shipping" would be? not denying service?
  371. winfried jonasw: with a service like XMPP it is quite tricky to judge
  372. jonasw yeah
  373. Ge0rG winfried: oh, that's too broad. I was asking about s2s connections from the EU to third countries.
  374. winfried Ge0rG: ah, ok
  375. winfried Ge0rG: that one is quite clear cut, is chapter 5
  376. pep. First the laws of said country have to be deemed adequate right?
  377. Ge0rG winfried: chapter 5 is rather long. Can you provide a TL;DR, as this is going to affect s2s
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  380. winfried chapter 5 has different grounds, adequacy is just one of them
  381. winfried (adequacy is art 45)
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  383. pep. pff, I don't want to imagine an implementation for that
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  385. winfried diving further in my bible....
  386. Ge0rG Ah, so transfer to "adequate" countries does not require any additional measures
  387. winfried Ge0rG: correct
  388. pep. yeah, art45
  389. pep. 45.1
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  392. winfried art 46: other possibilities are: Binding Corporate rules (when transfer inside one cooperation) (art 46.2b)
  393. Ge0rG so adequate and EU countries are the same category for s2s
  394. Ge0rG winfried: 46 probably doesn't apply.
  395. winfried Ge0rG: because?
  396. pep. doesn't it?
  397. pep. Unless you implementation forbids s2s to non-adequate third-countries
  398. pep. Unless your implementation forbids s2s to non-adequate third-countries
  399. Ge0rG winfried: or at least the contract/same-corp provisions of it
  400. Ge0rG unless all xmpp servers are operated by the same BigCorp
  401. pep. that's 47 right?
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  403. winfried Ge0rG: correct BCR (46.2b) doesn't apply
  404. pep. Ah 46.2b right
  405. pep. that refers to 47
  406. Ge0rG 46 is written in legalese, and I fail to parse it right now
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  408. pep. isn't all
  409. winfried yeah, I really need my bible here...
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  411. winfried 46.2c is interesting: standard clauses
  412. Ge0rG pep.: no, other parts are more appropriate
  413. pep. So we're trying to figure out if we'll have to filter out s2s right
  414. Ge0rG winfried: I suppose 46.2c means something like safe harbor/whatisitcallednow
  415. pep. Or how much
  416. pep. And/or how much
  417. Ge0rG pep.: right
  418. pep. That is really meh. Who was talking about trying to reach email people again
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  421. pep. See how they cope with that.
  422. winfried no, safe harbour is part of the EU-US adequacy decision: "if you keep to privacy shield, it s adequate"
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  425. pep. "Hey users, you can't reach half of the planet from now on"
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  427. pep. winfried, how is this privacy shield defined?
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  431. pep. hmm, what about 49.1a?
  432. Ge0rG AFAIU third countries are also covered by user consent
  433. pep. yes just what I pointed out I think
  434. winfried privacy shield is a (before GDPR) construct to legalise EU-US transfer, saying: when keeping to privacy shield, then the protection in the US is adequate and permitted
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  436. jonasw I’m trying to find a clue about it in the google privacy policy atm
  437. winfried (And Schrems finely argued it was not adequate becease the NSA was left out it)
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  439. winfried So now al companies leave adequacy as ground and use standard clauses
  440. pep. I'd say article 49 applies quite a lot
  441. jonasw so, there’s nothing in that
  442. jonasw (that = google privacy policy)
  443. jonasw with respect to federation
  444. jonasw I begin to suspect that the following applies:
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  446. winfried jonasw: you just found an interesting legal gap at google ;-)
  447. Ge0rG jonasw: sue them!
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  449. jonasw 1. the user has a clear intent to share a message with a recipient when they send a message. 2. it is up to the recipient how they handle the data. this includes whether they consent to it being stored on their server and for how long
  450. pep. winfried, they have more laywers than you will ever have
  451. jonasw now how that works in the light of germany’s whatsapp decision, I don’t know.
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  454. Ge0rG jonasw: I tend to agree with you here, however... by sending a message you only show implicit consent in that the message is to be delivered to the recepient, not that it shall be analyzed to create a profile of your sex life.
  455. winfried pep.: yes, but for example when analysing Microsofts new terms, I found over a douzen issues that were violating EU law
  456. jonasw Ge0rG, that’s true, but if the receiving party consented to that?
  457. jonasw that’s a matter between you and the receiving party then, isn’t it?
  458. jonasw I mean the receiving party could also simply upload all your messages manually to some service which does that to gain some moneyz.
  459. Ge0rG jonasw: yes.
  460. jonasw so nothing which concerns server operators?
  461. pep. interesting
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  463. Ge0rG jonasw: the receiving party must gain your consent to process your data.
  464. jonasw but that’s #notourdepartment?
  465. Ge0rG yes
  466. pep. Ge0rG, by subscribing?
  467. jonasw so we can simply not give a fuck?
  468. pep. Or joining a MUC, or ..
  469. jonasw I don’t think that subscription is consent for any level of advanced processing.
  470. winfried 49.1b may be very applicable here
  471. jonasw not for art 9.1 type processing at least
  472. Ge0rG jonasw: maybe. Maybe we need to explicitly tell the user that their messages might leave the EU
  473. pep. winfried, if 49.1b is not enough, there's still 49.1a
  474. pep. Ge0rG, 49.1a then
  475. pep. explicit consent
  476. jonasw Ge0rG, mmm, I feel that this might be a reasonable assumption.
  477. jonasw like, if you send a message overseas, it’ll be overseas, period.
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  479. jonasw however, it’s unclear that you might send a message overseas when I send a message to somebody who is in e.g. sweden but has an account at $USProvider
  480. pep. I fear users do not know if it will be overseas, but we can just state the possibility in anycase
  481. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure we can argue that 49.1b applies here: you have a service contract with the XMPP server, and if you want your messages to be sent overseas, the server will happily do so
  482. alexis has joined
  483. Ge0rG jonasw: $USProvider is subject to GDPR then.
  484. winfried pep.: my reading is you need one of 49.1a-49.1g
  485. pep. winfried, yes
  486. jonasw I think c applies
  487. pep. if 45 and 46 don't apply
  488. Ge0rG jonasw: I don't thing 49.1c applies here
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  490. pep. jonasw, as in, contract between server operators ?
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  492. winfried 49.1c needs a contract between server operators and it needs to be in the interest of the user. Mainly the first one is problematic, the second one may be
  493. Ge0rG I think that 1b is better applicable here.
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  495. pep. Well we don't have to settle on one, unless it's 1a
  496. pep. If both apply, great
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  499. winfried 49.1b says (more or less) and analouge to 6.1b: when it is needed to perform the request of the user
  500. Ge0rG Yup.
  501. pep. yes
  502. winfried and that one is quite clear: we federate and transfer on request of the user
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  504. jonasw Ge0rG, oh indeed I misread
  505. pep. Indeed, I only have that s2s connection if a user requests it
  506. winfried 49.1a feels a bit like a minefield to me
  507. Ge0rG So I'd argue that transfer of content is covered by 49.1b because the user wanted the content to be sent to wherever, and meta-data is covered because the user wanted to subscribe or somesuch.
  508. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  509. pep. Seems good to me
  510. Ge0rG It might be a good tech TODO to have that written in the data policy.
  511. pep. fires vim
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  513. Ge0rG people that you approve as contacts will be able to see your online status.
  514. jonasw Ge0rG, mmm, with subcsription I’d argue that some things aren’t obvious.
  515. winfried is listening
  516. jonasw ah, that’s what you meant
  517. jonasw makes sense
  518. pep. jonasw, I think we ought to make them obvious in the policies
  519. Ge0rG jonasw: let's make a list
  520. jonasw Ge0rG, ack
  521. jonasw 1. vcard avatar is always publicly visible
  522. jonasw 2. pep avatar and other pep things are most likely visible to your contacts. what things are there, besides avatars?
  523. Ge0rG jonasw: vcard avatar is public data. maybe good to have a separate category for that
  524. jonasw 3. last online timestamp, status message, online status, list of online devices
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  526. jonasw list of online devices also means things like software version btw
  527. jonasw because if you know the resource, you can IQ
  528. Ge0rG jonasw: I think that #2 is actually well covered implicitly. If you "play a tune", you want that to be shared with your friends
  529. jonasw possibly
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  531. jonasw it’s the clients job to make that explicit at least
  532. Ge0rG I don't want to open _that_ can of worms
  533. jonasw yupp
  534. jonasw that’s fine
  535. jonasw let’s focus on what must be done on the protocol/federation/server level.
  536. Ge0rG so we need two lists: things shared with everyone; things shared with contacts
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  538. winfried Ge0rG: yes
  539. Ge0rG the latter might contain surprises to the user.
  540. Ge0rG with everyone = with everyone who knows your JID
  541. pep. And things not shared, as in credentials etc., even if obvious
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  544. winfried Ge0rG: you can assume a JID to be publicaly known
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  546. pep. Ge0rG, maybe define "everyone who knows you JID" a bit more? contacts, non-anon MUC owners
  547. Ge0rG winfried: can I?
  548. pep. other server operators
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  550. pep. winfried, I don't think so
  551. Ge0rG "contacts, chatrooms and their server operators"
  552. winfried don't know if that discussion is *very* relevant here/now but in practice most people publish their JID, so they can be contacted...
  553. Ge0rG winfried: if you publish your JID, your JID is obviously public
  554. Ge0rG winfried: but what if not
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  556. pep. I'm going to go soon-ish, starting to get hungry
  557. pep. This list falls under things to be transparent about in the privacy policy then
  558. Ge0rG pep.: yes, it's for the tech TODO
  559. pep. yep
  560. winfried +1
  561. Ge0rG so do we have 1.1d covered now=
  562. Ge0rG so do we have 1.1d covered now?
  563. winfried with the remark of sensitive data or not
  564. Ge0rG right.
  565. winfried (LQ1)
  566. pep. Ok
  567. Ge0rG the Sword of GDamoclesPR
  568. pep. Can we plan next?
  569. winfried yes
  570. winfried I will try if I can get some opinions on sensitive data in some lawyer groups I participate in
  571. jonasw I’m sure it’s sensitive data. I’d just like to have clarification on if simple store-and-forward (and no analysis) brings us into 9.1 realm
  572. winfried jonasw: exactly
  573. jonasw neat
  574. jonasw so, date of next?
  575. jonasw my constraints shifted and I’m unavailable thursday this week
  576. pep. not tomorrow if possible
  577. pep. Fri noon?
  578. jonasw friday would wfm, something like 10:30 CEST -- 11:30 CEST e.g.
  579. Ge0rG so friday?
  580. pep. I'm not available in the morning
  581. jonasw is 10:30 still morning at yours?
  582. pep. yes
  583. jonasw I see
  584. Ge0rG I'm blocked after 1300CEST
  585. daniel has joined
  586. pep. before 12 is morning :P
  587. pep. hmm
  588. jonasw mmm, I can’t promise 12:00CEST
  589. Ge0rG pep.: set up an alarm :P
  590. alexis has joined
  591. pep. Ge0rG, I have paid job to do
  592. pep. In between :p
  593. Ge0rG yeah, right :P
  594. winfried Friday I am available between 12:00 and 13:30 CEST
  595. pep. I can do 9:30 here, 8:30UTC
  596. alexis has left
  597. alexis has joined
  598. pep. if it doesn't go more than an hour
  599. Ge0rG jonasw: take your laptop to the lunch break? ;)
  600. Ge0rG it never went more than an hour!
  601. jonasw Ge0rG, lunch break people won’t approach
  602. jonasw *approve
  603. jonasw wtf is wrong with me
  604. pep. ok so 10:30CEST
  605. pep. In the end
  606. jonasw 10:30 CEST on friday, ACK
  607. Ge0rG winfried> Friday I am available between 12:00 and 13:30 CEST
  608. Dave Cridland has left
  609. jonasw oh
  610. jonasw welp
  611. pep. hmm
  612. jonasw otherwise, next week same time as today would work for me too
  613. winfried OK, when doing some magic with my schedule, I can be reading from 10:30 but only be (really) active from appr. 11:00
  614. pep. Sure, Mon, Tue workforme
  615. Ge0rG we need to get this settled soon.
  616. pep. Fri I'm not here from 11:45 CEST to ~12:45 CEST
  617. jonasw I blocked friday 10:30 CEST, and I blocked Tue 12:30 CEST, I don’t care which you chose :)
  618. pep. Tue 12:13 CEST is fine by me
  619. winfried Tue wfm (more or less)
  620. pep. What works better?
  621. winfried Tue
  622. pep. Tue when?
  623. winfried after 9:30 CEST
  624. pep. I can do 10:30 CEST again on Tue, or anytime after that
  625. jonasw Ge0rG, 12:30 CEST on Tue?
  626. Ge0rG can do
  627. jonasw then it’s settled
  628. winfried Tuesday 12:30 CEST
  629. winfried bangs the gavel
  630. pep. :)
  631. mimi89999 has joined
  632. pep. what do you call morning btw? if it's not before noon
  633. alexis has left
  634. jonasw hmmm, in german there’s "vormittag", which awkwardly translates to pre-noon.
  635. alexis has joined
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  638. pep. Ok, I know in quebec they also have this weird notion of early morning and before noon, but in france I've never heard that
  639. pep. (french quebec)
  640. jonasw it’s not particularly weird, considering we have the same for after noon
  641. pep. Sure. Though in usual my mornings are pretty short anyway, so just having one word is fine by me :P
  642. winfried pep.: lol
  643. Ge0rG morning is the time between your first coffee and being awake.
  644. winfried what's in a word!
  645. pep. Ge0rG, can that also include noon?
  646. Holger Ge0rG: So morning == afternoon?
  647. jonasw even more weird are the swedes, where "middag" is both dinner and noon. eftermiddag is only afternoon, but not after dinner.
  648. pep. :D
  649. winfried Ge0rG: that is never in my case, I don't drink coffee and I am never awake :-P
  650. ta has left
  651. Zash "förmiddag"
  652. Ge0rG winfried: then you have an eternal morning?
  653. pep. I'll try to send the minutes today. And update the wiki after that
  654. Zash the morning that never ends?
  655. pep. out for lunch
  656. jonasw Zash, do you have a highlight on "swede"?
  657. winfried Ge0rG: welcome in my life ;-)
  658. jubalh has joined
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  660. MattJ jonasw, he has a highlight on "coffee"
  661. jonasw MattJ, that makes sense
  662. alexis has joined
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  664. Ge0rG A highlight on "highlight"
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  679. jonasw is dwd saying "do a PR, because a vote without PR isn’t really useful at all"?
  680. jonasw if so, I find that hard to get from that email :)
  681. MattJ Well, he's not instructing, but... yes
  682. alexis has left
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  684. MattJ Voting on "X is a nice idea" and "PR X is good to merge" are different things. But I imagine Ge0rG would rather not work on a PR unless the council indicates it would be in favour of the idea of removing GC1
  685. Ge0rG What MattJ said.
  686. Ge0rG I can only imagine that Dave assumes I'm not sufficiently familiar with the Council process.
  687. jonasw or maybe is confused by your attempts to vote to abolish pidgin ;-)
  688. Kev I don't *think* Dave's mail says that.
  689. Kev I *think* he's just observing that the vote has no practical effect, rather that that it's a bad idea to have the vote.
  690. Ge0rG The practical effect will be that I'll get green lights on preparing a PR, and maybe even some Feedback From The Elders.
  691. Kev Ge0rG: That's not an effect of the vote, though, that's an effect of us discussing it.
  692. ThibG has joined
  693. Ge0rG Obviously, a Council member could decide to lure me by +1ing the general principle vote and then blocking any follow-up PR, but I don't hope this is going to happen.
  694. Kev I think the vote's a sensible thing to do, as a forcing function for discussion, but it doesn't achive anything that the discussion without out a vote wouldn't.
  695. Ge0rG Kev: there is actually one outcome I'm looking for: Council consensus on removal of GC1.
  696. Ge0rG Kev: if we don't manage to achieve that consensus, I'm not going to prepare a PR.
  697. Kev I think that's very sensible.
  698. Zash has left
  699. Ge0rG Which probably wasn't crystal clear from my e-mail.
  700. Kev And I think a vote as a forcing function on the discussion is sensible, too.
  701. efrit has joined
  702. Kev Just that it's not really *necessary*.
  703. Ge0rG Right.
  704. marmistrz has left
  705. Ge0rG I'm painfully aware that if the vote is accepted, we'll have a second vote on the subject matter of the PR.
  706. Ge0rG Even my mail to standards@ can be used to discuss the motion in the wider community.
  707. daniel has left
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  709. Kev I'm against it on the basis of having been reworking M-Link's MUC implementation recently and I implemented and tested GC1 joins :p
  710. Kev (No, I'm not really)
  711. Ge0rG Kev: you have nobody but yourself to blame. I've clearly stated my goal of burning GC1 half a year ago
  712. alexis has joined
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  715. Kev I'm not opposed in principle, but I do think we should have a story for how to address the 'just fix out of sync' that GC1 currently works for.
  716. Ge0rG Kev: "works"
  717. Zash Kev: It does the opposite of fixing anything.
  718. Kev It's not good, but it *does* work around some things at the moment.
  719. Kev e.g. if you've desynched then at least a presence broadcast means you start getting messages again.
  720. blabla has left
  721. Zash Kev: You'll still be desynced
  722. Kev We should describe how to detect and resolve those cases at the same time as getting rid of GC1.
  723. Zash As in, your view of the participant list may be outdated.
  724. Kev Zash: You will. You'll also be receiving messages.
  725. Ge0rG I think I made multiple proposals back in October.
  726. Martin has joined
  727. Ge0rG I could make an even more revolutionary one: let the MUC respond to self-pings by a participant.
  728. Zash Kev: True. Sending a full join bundle would help in that case.
  729. Ge0rG Zash: not quite
  730. Zash Ge0rG: Assuming clients understand "ok, forget everything, here's the current state", which might need adding
  731. Ge0rG Zash: because you'll end up with zombie users in your participant list
  732. Ge0rG Zash: yes. Assuming there is some kind of marker in the stream telling the client when to forget everything from before
  733. Ge0rG which there isn't in the normal join bundle
  734. moparisthebest has left
  735. Zash Correct. So Kev says we should address that.
  736. jere has joined
  737. Zash Returning an error and making the client rejoin does have the same end result tho, at the cost of a roundtrip
  738. Ge0rG Zash: except that most clients suck at rejoining.
  739. alexis has left
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  741. Ge0rG Zash: somebody could implement a server-side MUC bouncer that hides all of this from the client.
  742. Zash Ge0rG: *ahem* mod_minimix?
  743. Ge0rG Zash: I don't appreciate that name very much, but yes.
  744. Zash Naming things is hard
  745. Ge0rG Zash: also I had a brief look at the source code and decided not to load it on yax.im
  746. Zash Ge0rG: Sane choice.
  747. Dave Cridland has left
  748. jonasw mod_minix -- run a minix inside lua and own all your traffic
  749. jonasw mod_mimimix -- complain about all attempts to join MIXes in the logs
  750. Ge0rG mod_mixtape - play low-quality music whenever somebody joins a mix
  751. Anu has joined
  752. Zash Hold on, how do you trick a MUC into subscribing to your presence?
  753. Ge0rG Oh. Hm.
  754. Ge0rG Right, adding a MUC to your roster doesn't imply much.
  755. Ge0rG I wonder what happens if you send a subscription request to a MUC
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  776. Kev My concern is that things are bad with desyncs, and we'll make them worse by just stopping doing gc1.
  777. Kev And on a Draft XEP that's not on.
  778. Ge0rG Kev: we'll just make clear how bad it actually is.
  779. daniel has left
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  781. jonasw Kev, silently losing messages (what we currently have) is worse than explicitly dropping out of a MUC.
  782. Ge0rG Kev: but I'm open to suggestions how to transition into the new world of awesome MUC without causing regressions
  783. Kev jonasw: And that's not what's on the table.
  784. Maranda re-read the gdpr thing
  785. jonasw Kev, it’s not?
  786. Kev jonasw: What's on the table is silently losing some messages vs silently losing more messages.
  787. jonasw Kev, no, you don’t *silently* lose more mesasges
  788. jonasw the user and client are aware that they’re losing messages, which isn’t the case with a silent pseudo-resync which happens on accidental GC1.0
  789. lnj has joined
  790. Ge0rG are aware that they *were* losing messages,
  791. jonasw Ge0rG, true.
  792. Kev jonasw: But how many existing clients are dealing with whatever behaviour we're moving towards?
  793. alexis has joined
  794. Maranda So in the end "user must explicitly give consent to treatment of his/her data by 3rd parties (receiving) when using s2s" is legally covering glad we got to that at least.
  795. jonasw Kev, if the MUC replies with a "kicked" status code, every single one I think.
  796. Kev jonasw: I'm not opposed to fixings, but we do have to be sure we're actually fixing them.
  797. Ge0rG jonasw: I really dislike "kicked" as opposed to a presence-error
  798. Kev jonasw: Great, so the user isn't getting messages and eventually they might wonder why that tab has gone quiet and look why and see they left 3 days ago.
  799. Ge0rG jonasw: because a sane client won't auto-rejoin after being kicked
  800. Maranda oO(and "who would have told" ™️)
  801. jonasw Ge0rG, kicked + 333 maybe?
  802. Ge0rG jonasw: that's not backward compatible to clients not parsing 333.
  803. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m not sure if clients handle type="error"
  804. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm speaking of "sane" clients.
  805. jonasw Kev, dunno, I’d *expect* clients to tell me that I got kicked out of a MUC.
  806. j.r has left
  807. jonasw Ge0rG, me too
  808. j.r has joined
  809. Anu so are we discussing MUC or what the new lighter MUC will be
  810. jonasw Ge0rG, have you made a survey how many handle type="error"?
  811. jonasw Anu, MUC
  812. Maranda Anu, uncertain.
  813. Ge0rG Kev: yes. It's better to see after three days that you got kicked than to lose three days worth of discussion and then silently rejoin
  814. Anu ah
  815. Alex has left
  816. Kev Ge0rG: except probably you don't lose 3 days of messages under gc1, because you will have silently kinda rejoined.
  817. Ge0rG Anu: I've stirred some controversy on the standards@ ML
  818. Kev I'm not saying gc1 is a good thing.
  819. Kev Or arguing that it should stay.
  820. Ge0rG Kev: maybe you only rejoined after two days.
  821. Kev I'm just saying that it's not clear that we yet have a story for what happens next.
  822. Maranda And why auto-rejoining is insane?
  823. Maranda 🤔
  824. Ge0rG Maranda: it isn't, unless you were just kicked
  825. Anu Group chat (as people expect it) is such a solved problem. In my honest opinion, we should probably spit up the IRC clone from the kind of group chat people use today (which is more of a distribution list)
  826. Ge0rG Anu: yes, but then everybody wanted their favorite feature in and we ended up with MIX
  827. Anu MIX?
  828. jonasw Anu, XEP-0396
  829. jonasw eh
  830. jonasw Anu, XEP-0369
  831. Zash has left
  832. Ge0rG Anu: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html
  833. Ge0rG playing xep-bot
  834. jonasw good bot Ge0rG
  835. Kev It's MUC with the issues fixed.
  836. Ge0rG Kev: that's the optimistic view.
  837. Maranda -xep 369
  838. Bunneh Maranda: Mediated Information eXchange (MIX) (Standards Track, Experimental, 2018-03-18) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0369.html
  839. Ge0rG I'm not convinced that MIX actually solves the problem we are talking about (s2s desync). All it provides is some hand-wavy "use MAM"
  840. Maranda -xep 396
  841. Bunneh Maranda: Jingle Encrypted Transports - OMEMO (Standards Track, Experimental, 2017-11-29) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0396.html
  842. Kev Ge0rG: I think that's right, actually. We do need to get the MAM resync in there.
  843. Maranda :O
  844. jonasw yeah, MIX is in the state of "silent message loss", but with better recovery times than MUC
  845. Ge0rG jonasw: recovery times? I don't see no recovery times in MIX
  846. jonasw Ge0rG, in theory, each message stanza would trigger an s2sout attempt at the MIX side of things.
  847. Ge0rG Kev: so I assume your statement should read "MIX is MUC with additional issues." :P
  848. jonasw which is *probably* better than what happens with MUC-GC1.0-pseudo-resync which only happens when a client happens to update its presence.
  849. jonasw MIX fixes the resource part abuse.
  850. Kev And the long-term join.
  851. Maranda thinks currently MIX is in the "it'll cause a core meltdown", but he's vaguely biased.
  852. Kev And the multi-client.
  853. Anu has left
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  857. jonasw everybody loves core dumps
  858. Maranda Stick a state somewhere in that last sentence
  859. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm not sure this is a real problem. And if it is, I'm not sure that abusing the localpart of the MIX JID to contain two fields is a good solution.
  860. Ge0rG Kev: we can solve multi-client long-term join in MUC without touching a single line of XEP.
  861. Maranda Agreed
  862. Kev I'm quite sure that's not true.
  863. Ge0rG All we need is a bouncer on the user's account that syncs with 0048.
  864. jonasw Ge0rG, it doesn’t shake the concept of "same bare JID == same identity", which is good enough for me I think
  865. Ge0rG Or 0402, or whatever.
  866. Kev As long as we have full-JID sharing, iq is going to be broken.
  867. jonasw yeah
  868. Ge0rG jonasw: except in MIX you have a 1:N relationship between identities and JIDs over different MIXes
  869. Martin has joined
  870. Maranda Although I'm somehow also sure somehow "bncs" will also be a cause of nuclear meltdowns
  871. jonasw Ge0rG, I’m not sure that matters much.
  872. SamWhited has left
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  874. Ge0rG Kev: what are the IQ use cases in MUC?
  875. Kev Any time you want to do anything that involves an iq.
  876. jonasw Ge0rG, initiating a call with an occupant (not the whole MUC)
  877. Kev So the same as non-MUC.
  878. daniel has left
  879. Ge0rG Kev: and self-references are self-references.
  880. Anu has joined
  881. Ge0rG The only IQs I'm actively using are (self)ping and version, and I just made a proposal to fix #1 and I can live with the ambiguity of #2
  882. Maranda eyes that "Thesis Survey" in jdev@
  883. Anu desync = netsplit ?
  884. Ge0rG Anu: kind of.
  885. Ge0rG Anu: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-October/033501.html has an in-depth explanation
  886. Maranda Ge0rG vcard:temp also
  887. jonasw Maranda, vcard:temp is on the account, not on the occupant
  888. jonasw Maranda, vcard:temp is on the account, not on the resource
  889. Maranda And time
  890. Dave Cridland has left
  891. jonasw so that’s about the one case where it doesn’t matter in MUC :)
  892. Anu We should all just use EF net and be happy
  893. Maranda What? Hmm is there a difference jonasw?
  894. Ge0rG Maranda: yes, in MUC you query the full JID for the vcard, and it gets routed by the MUC to the account of the participant
  895. Kev jonasw: No, actually, vcard:temp is another example of iq being broken.
  896. Kev Because it should go to the full JID of the occupant, not to their bare JID.
  897. jonasw Kev, wha?
  898. jonasw ITYM the other way round?
  899. Kev So all* MUC implementations have some special casing to detect a vcard and send it to the wrong place (bare JID) instead of the normal routing rules [*probably].
  900. Ge0rG Kev: so there is a viable workaround for that.
  901. jonasw ah, "should" in the sense of "the normal routing rules"
  902. jonasw Ge0rG, so we wanna staple further workarounds onto MUC for every IQ which might ever need to go to the bare JID?
  903. Maranda is confused with occupant != account muc wise
  904. Maranda Waiting for cell to return ™️
  905. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm sure the incremental overhead is minuscule.
  906. jonasw Ge0rG, but the adoption delay?
  907. jonasw and the difficulties for new implementers.
  908. jonasw and of course, the client code which needs to special-case requesting stuff from MUC occupants.
  909. SamWhited has left
  910. Ge0rG jonasw: write it down in 0045.
  911. daniel has left
  912. jonasw you mean like the vcard:temp hack is written down?
  913. Ge0rG jonasw: the special-casing in my client is just in two places :>
  914. Ge0rG jonasw: dunno. I'm not a server author. I'm busy enough keeping 0045 usable for client devs.
  915. Maranda Well iq routing has always been hassle in muc, e.g. who do you send to on ping, version, time etc
  916. Ge0rG a.k.a. not my department.
  917. Maranda In case of shared nick
  918. Maranda 😎
  919. Ge0rG Maranda: I suggest "highest priority"
  920. Kev Maranda: Yes, that's one of the things that's fundamentally broken with MUC addressing.
  921. Ge0rG no, "most available"
  922. lnj has joined
  923. jonasw I suggest least mobile
  924. Alex has joined
  925. Maranda Least mobile 🤔😆
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  936. Maranda And no hacks aren't written down e.g. Multi resource nicks
  937. j.r has left
  938. Ge0rG Maranda: PR the XEP!
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  948. Maranda Ge0rG I would use someone more literate than myself english wise
  949. Maranda 😜
  950. Ge0rG Maranda: just don't plaster it with Emoji :P
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  958. Holger #18.1.2 Ghost Users 👻
  959. Holger #5 Roles, Affiliations, and Privileges 😱
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  966. Maranda Mobile Chrome even hangs browsing xeps
  967. Maranda 🤔
  968. Ge0rG I was going to suggest status code 666 for the Ghost Rider.
  969. alexis has left
  970. Ge0rG Or maybe the GOST Rider. zinid and Andrew would appreciate that.
  971. Maranda 666 which in reality is 999
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  983. edhelas propose to ping Ge0rG to check the state of all the MUCs
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  986. Ge0rG edhelas: great idea. And then I quit XMPP and everybody's clients go offline
  987. alexis has joined
  988. daniel has left
  989. edhelas then I'm adding "Ge0rG MUST stay online" to the XEP
  990. jjrh has left
  991. Ge0rG edhelas: I'm not sure you need to write that into the XEP, it might suffice to get a Council vote.
  992. Ge0rG I'll request XSF funding for a multi-homed redundant-hardware HA cluster to run my poezio.
  993. Ge0rG Oh, wait. poezio needs restarts as well. I will request funding to develop a new client written in Erlang.
  994. jonasw Maranda, regarding english literacy, that’s the editors job when in doubt
  995. Maranda 😲
  996. Ge0rG jonasw: I didn't want to say that, knowing that the editors are pretty busy
  997. jonasw Ge0rG, that’s no reason not to say the truth :)
  998. jubalh has joined
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  1000. Ge0rG jonasw: while you are there... I have some pending PRs :D
  1001. jonasw Ge0rG, I know that
  1002. jonasw I have a pending PR mysefl
  1003. jonasw but unfortunately, what you were saying is also true ("the editors are pretty busy")
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