jonaswMaranda, requesting the config form is a smart thing to do, because usually you want to offer configuration to the user.
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Marandajonasw, for muc? I'm not sure the end user will know what to do with it also as MattJ said if something does it like Gajim does you may end with an undefinitely locked room
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KevWhy not just do what Swift does?
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Kev"[x] Automatically configure new rooms"
MarandaAnd regarding subject I decided to send it after the room is unlocked
ZashSensible defaults? Never!
MarandaKev, or just request an instant room
KevWe didn't even have that to start with, but we had people who required reserved rooms.
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KevMaranda: I think that's not one of the two obvious readings of the spec :)
MarandaI think lovetox is more incline on auto requesting an instant room though
MarandaEven because if you cancel the config form the room has to be destroyed ™️
Zash> undefinitely locked room
say what?
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MarandaYes
MarandaUndefinitely locked room
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jonaswi think you meant: indefinitely
MarandaWhatever
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MarandaI'm an illiterate english wise 😜
ZashKeep a timestamp and unlock or destroy it on some timeout?
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MarandaPossible, but how much time and what happens if the user just creates the room and goes to pick up a coffee (leaving the config form open)
MarandaThat's not too silly either
MarandaAs example
ZashMeasure how long it takes to fetch coffee
Ge0rGUnlock the room if the user leaves prior to finishing configuration
jonaswallow to create rooms by just submitting a config form to a MUC JID?
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MarandaOr join and just request an instant room
MarandaIt's already provided
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Ge0rGI think instant rooms are underspecified in 0045
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MarandaGe0rG well I didn't even know about all this mess before yesterday, and/or I suppose my brain could've just removed it because it's too messy
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Ge0rGMaranda: so I made you have nightmares about MUC? Yay.
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MarandaAbout all this locking mess yeah it's horrible UX wise, but I have to care about the protocol not UX ultimately
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jonaswdoes gajim 1.x still do resource locking?
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MarandaI suppose, never experienced chat disjoints (yet)
jonasw:/
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Ge0rGMaranda: what? you put protocol over UX?
jonaswas a server deve, I think that’s a valid argument ;-)
MarandaGe0rG, shiny things is your thing mine is the rubbery below that..? 🤷♂️
Maranda😘
Ge0rGMaranda: if the protocol goes against UX, it needs to be ignored and/or repaired.
MarandaIndeed but since there's a standard I have to abide to that
MarandaUntil it's fixed ™️
Ge0rGMaranda: there are server devs in this MUC who have ignored the standard to improve UX
Ge0rG> Until it's fixed ™️
So did you submit a PR? An XEP?
MarandaSubmit a PR to muc?
jonaswsure
MarandaI would remove the locking mechanism completely and leave instant rooms while I understand the reasons below it
MarandaI can already see a lot of people voting against it
MarandaI know
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MarandaBut that's what it would be
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MarandaAnd then I'd need some editor to re edit it and make it comprehensible for the masses too.
Marandaeyes jonasw?
Maranda🤣
Ge0rGMaranda: you could collaborate with an editor
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jonaswthe way pubsub does it would be cool. create a room by sending a config form along. if the room exists -> conflict, if it doesn’t exist -> configure as specified by the client (if possible, otherwise error)
Ge0rGjonasw: for instant rooms, I'd argue that the server should assign a room name.
MarandaYes that's indeedly a better solution
Ge0rG<iq to=chat.yax.im><gimme-a-room-pse>
jonaswgah
Ge0rGs/room name/room JID/
Marandajonasw's for sending the config form, but then rooms aren't persistant by default
MarandaSo we get into an implementation issue
jonasw…?
jonaswthe client would send a config form with persistent set to treu.....
jonaswgotta go
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MarandaAnd what about non persistant members only rooms mr. "jonasw gotta go“ 🤨
Marandale sighs
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jonaswMaranda, what?
jonaswthe client can request whatever it needs?
jonaswI don’t see your problem.
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MarandaThat a non persistant room to exists needs someone in it, that's what all the locking junk is about
MarandaSo what I said above applies as issue in your solution
jonaswthis joins and creates the room
jonaswand configures
MarandaOk that could work 😁
jonaswI don’t see the problem with that.
jonasw:)
jonaswand it’s atomic, which is neat
jonaswmuch better than MUC logging
jonaswwtf
jonaswwhat did I just write
jonaswlocking is what I meant
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jonaswI need lunch, gotta go now for real
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Marandajonasw your "work like in pubsub" didn't trigger the "publish-options" example in my head (which fits more than "create-and-configure" and won't apply for non persistant)
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Marandas/and won't/that won't/
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MarandaAnd well GC1.0 breaks spim blocking horribly for mucs
Ge0rGMaranda: does it?
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Marandaneeds to add additional tracking.
MarandaYes
MarandaAnd I sense a tip of <sarcasm/> there Ge0rG 😜
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Ge0rGMaranda: and I sense a large pinch of generalized statement.
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MarandaGe0rG muc private messages, I track directed presences with the x element atm
MarandaI'll have to track all directed presences using bare instead but that's a bit more expensive
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MarandaOn GC1 private messages will break mod_spim_block
MarandaAtm
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Ge0rGMaranda: don't you have to track all directed presences anyway?
Ge0rGMaranda: the funny part is when you try to join a nick as `Maranda`, but the MUC tells you that you joined as `Dumbass` instead. It will break both most clients and presence tracking!
Ge0rGjoin a MUC
Ge0rG(no offense intended)
danielsource for 'it will break most clients'
Ge0rGdaniel: maybe yours is a notable exception, but please don't generalize that.
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danieli'm just wondering if you actually experienced clients breaking on this?
Ge0rGI know of two that will be broken.
Ge0rGwith different degrees of brokenness.
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KevServers changing MUC nicks will certainly break things. How much things break might vary, but it'll screw things up.
KevYou need both your client to understand it sensibly and your server to do unspecified things.
Ge0rGKev: I think there are two different cases here; a MUC telling you that you joined with a different nickname, vs. changing your nickname later on
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danielmaybe sometimes you need to break things to have nice things
danielsomething something omelettes
danielbut it's pretty reckless to have the renaming in 45 w/o a way for the client to signal that it will be able to process that
Kev45 is broken in many interesting ways.
Ge0rGdaniel: yeah, but we can solve that. Just have the MUC service keep a mapping of (actual client nickname <-> what the client thinks its nickname is) and add some renaming on conflicts
Ge0rGso if my client thinks I'm `Ge0rG`, but I'm actually `Not_Ge0rG` in the MUC, when the real `Ge0rG` sends a groupchat message, I will see it as coming from `The_other_Ge0rG`. Easy!
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jonaswwhatthefuck
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pep.Sorry I haven't done the minutes of the gdpr meeting yet :(
jonaswI might have a conflict next tuesday, my boss is looking to sort this out.
pep.k, we can move if necessary I guess
jonaswif and only if this conflicts, I’ll be available on wednesday instead of tuesday.
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jonaswconflict resolved
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Ge0rGAh, minutes are in. Always a pleasure to read.
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MattJ.
GuusI'm here
Guus(but in a meeting)
MattJEnding soon?
MattJNyco sent apologies
Guusgod knows ...
MattJI know the kind :)
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GuusI can lurk here
MattJMartin, around?
MartinYup, sorry, chat window popped onto the wrong monitor
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MattJI haven't heard anything from Ralph
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Guuscan any of you start off?
GuusI have to pay some attention to this meeting 😕
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MattJPinged Ralph but no response. I'm not sure of the value of starting with 2.5 members present - unless you want to be counted as a 1
MartinI agree, probably a better idea to defer until next week
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Dave CridlandAnd then there were four. Or maybe 3.5.
GuusOk, meeting over 🙂
MattJOk
MattJLet's do what we can
MattJ0) Role call
GuusI'm here!
MattJMe, Martin, Guus
MattJnyco, sent apologies (but is here if he wants to retract them)
MattJAnyone have anything for the agenda?
Guus(nope)
MattJAnyone free to take minutes?
Guus<--
MattJThanks!
MattJNo decisions to make this week, it seems
MattJ1) Commitments
MattJ1.1) Membership survey
MattJI've converted the survey to a Google Form, you can take a look here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdZL6iNYhLJCTWYg3vZ_2XEC5dYrzeQuZtaJZ3OdJFL2UwFpQ/viewform
Ge0rGMattJ: there is an item to decide, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
GuusCan I fill that out as a test/
Guusor will my responses be inrevocable?
MattJFeedback welcome. Main open questions I think we need to decide: should it require an email address? (I say yes), and who should the survey be for? XSF members only? or the community at large?
MattJGuus, feel free
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Guusif we're doing this for members only (my preference), I'd make change the email field in a name field.
MattJand if we opt for members-only, potentially verification
MattJGe0rG, is that with your GDPR hat on? ;)
Ge0rG(maybe we should discuss the details off-meeting)
Ge0rGMattJ: not only
Ge0rGMattJ: if somebody asks me for my email, I want to know why.
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MattJOk, we can discuss. I'd like to send the form out before the next meeting
MattJWe're short on time, so let's move on
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Guusas I said: I think a member-only thing is most suitable: if only because we know these people to have some affection with XMPP.
Guusand with that, an email is not 'needed' (as we know who you are)
MattJGuus, I worry that may exclude some valuable opinions (the XSF may be a bit of a bubble)
MattJFor example, lots of memberships have lapsed - we might be able to learn why
Guusfair
Guusok, you won me over
MattJ1.2) Online swag shop
MattJNyco sent some details to the board list
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MattJIf we go ahead, I'd opt for not having any up-front costs
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Guusperhaps first decide if we do want to go ahead?
MattJI think last week we agreed on going ahead with the research
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MattJResearch is done (?)
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Guussure
MattJWhat reasons are there to not go ahead?
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MattJI can't think of any, it's essentially an experiment though
Guus(I don't have any major ones, but so far, it's only been three people talking about this)
MartinDo we know who'd come up with the creative elements? Or would we just use existing logo assets?
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MattJMartin, I assumed the latter, but that's a good point - we may want to do more than that (as we have done for FOSDEM in the past)
GuusMartin: I think this'd be best served by the comms team, but possibily scam as well?
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MattJBut then someone has to volunteer to do that
Ge0rGthere might be taxation issues for the XSF
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Ge0rGwhoever is responsible for the XSF tax forms should be asked first.
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Guusthat's sensible
MattJI assume it's no different to selling t-shirts at FOSDEM, but we probably should
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GuusPeter, as the Treasurer (and general -has-been-around-forever-and-knows-everything-) might be able to help here
MattJGuus, do you want to add it to your list? :)
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Guusk
MattJThanks
MattJSo let's do that, and push the final decision on this off for another week when hopefully we'll have more voices
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MattJ1.3) Collect information on the role and responsibilities of the executive officer
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MattJMartin, any success with this so far?
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MartinUnfortunately not. I'm about to leave one job and start another one, so my week's just been eaten up. Sorry.
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MattJThe title of the card is inaccurate, we're specifically discussing the Executive Director role
Guuschange it? 🙂
MattJShall do
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MattJ2) Items for discussion
MattJGuus, financing - ongoing I believe?
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Guusyeah, i've send out emails (cc'ed board), but no responses so far.
MattJNoted
Guusother than that, i've not started anything on the subject myself.
MattJOther item is ED search which is blocked on the other task
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MattJ3) We've hit our time, does anyone have important AOB?
MattJGe0rG highlighted that PR about Pidgin
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MattJI haven't read it yet, and don't really know what's going on, so I'd rather push that to next week
GuusI've commented on that in the PR
MattJand maybe give some feedback in the interim
MattJOk
Guusno AOBs from me.
MattJ4) Date of next
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MattJ+1w
MattJ5) Close
Guuswfm
MattJThanks all!
Guusthank you!
MartinThanks MattJ
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MattJGe0rG, ok, I see the issue. The neutrality issue is actually in the community survey so that might provide some data on what people would like to see here
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MattJPersonally, I'd be fine with including it if we had the right markings next to it indicating that it is not up to date with the latest protocols
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MattJBut down that road lies a whole kettle of worms
Ge0rGMattJ: I know. I'm not the one asking easy questions :P
MattJSomeone needs to determine what the compliance level is. If it's self-reported, someone needs to verify that
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MattJ(or do they really? Probably some competitor will submit a PR to fix it and we'll need to resolve the dispute :) )
Ge0rGWe don't have compliance level requirements.
Ge0rGBack when introducing the new policy, I wanted to make it more clear that only application authors are allowed to submit their respective application.
Ge0rGHowever, even that opinion was controversial.
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MattJIt's hard to enforce, would be my main concern
MattJIn open-source projects the line isn't always clearly defined
ZashAre only application authors allowed to?
MattJIf someone submits a couple of patches, are they allowed?
MattJIf they only maintain the documentation, are they allowed?
ZashOr if they are on the inofficial marketing team by speaking positively about your project at least once? :)
MattJThis is why that plan to have XMPP projects host some metadata on their domain would be the best option
ZashBut if the current situation is that project authors won't even bother submitting a one line patch, who's going to motivate them to author such a metadata file?
MattJThe people who are currently trying to submit the projects to us :)
GuusI'm not a fan of restricting applications to that JSON file
Ge0rGWe as the XMPP community have a huge quality issue. We won't solve it by having "inofficial marketing volunteers" submit zombies to The Official Client List
MattJGuus, why so?
GuusBecause being the one that created the app doesn't uniquely qualify you to add it to our list.
GuusHell, I think I've added a couple of clients on there.
ZashAlso, me, being against forcing people onto singular platforms, feel meh about it being done by github pr.
Ge0rGZash: you can send .diff files
GuusWhy would we limit our list by denying entries from enthousiastic users that are not devs?
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Ge0rGGuus: because enthusiastic users don't know whether their favorite client is actually good for the general audience.
MattJGuus, it depends entirely on the purpose of the list
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Ge0rGAt least less so than the developer.
MattJI think you and Ge0rG have different opinions on that
GuusIt's up to us to merge or reject the PR.
Guusso quality control is up to us. I'd be happy for anyone to offer suggestions for us to put on those lists.
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ZashWas the purpose of the renewal not to filter out inactive projects.
Ge0rGZash: yes
ZashPidgin is not an inactive project, even it's not moving very fast.
Ge0rGGuus: what kind of quality control do you want to apply, that doesn't violate the Holy XSF Neutrality Stance.
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GuusGe0rg: a judgement if the entry is appropriate. I've denied stuff before.
Ge0rGGuus: judgment on which grounds?
Guuslemme think
Ge0rGGuus: I agree with you that we want quality clients there. But we need to have some formal grounds for that
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Guusi think I denied at least two, because they were XMPP-based silos (that did not federate)
GuusOh, but then we disagree 🙂
MattJFWIW I had multiple conversations with ex-XMPP users who had moved to other platforms because XMPP can't do $feature
GuusI don't think quality is a requirement.
MattJWhen it turns out they were Pidgin users, and don't even have Carbons
Guusas that's subjective, at times.
Guusexactly, lots of people are happy with Pidgin, even fi we're not
MattJand this has given me the opinion that Pidgin is harmful to XMPP, as it stands
Guusso I'wouldn't mind adding it
MattJNo, these people left XMPP because of Pidgin
Seve/SouLMaybe gathering a minimum of XEPs implemented?
Ge0rGGuus: except that pidgin makes your XMPP experience break in unexpected ways if you add another client
Seve/SouLfor IM.
Ge0rGSeve/SouL: like the Compliance Suite?
MattJPidgin is extremely popular (whether we list it or not)
MattJand for a significant number of XMPP users, it *is* XMPP
Ge0rGPidgin and Zom on top of Cisco Jabber.
MattJXMPP does not support Carbons or MAM if Pidgin does not support Carbons or MAM
GuusMatt, that's why I think we'd better list it, but with some kind of footnote.
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Ge0rGwe need a traffic light, and pidgin will be red.
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Ge0rGexcept colorblind.
Seve/SouLGe0rG, I don't know how many active/good clients would the Compliance Suite exclude, but yes.
Something like 'minimum decent experience'.
This way we even could list clients that have these features or more, and 'others' that do not, like Pidgin or whatever.
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Ge0rGAs long as yaxim ends up on the "good" side, and Pidgin on the "bad" one, I don't care :P
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Seve/SouLHeh
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GuusSeve, I largely agree. I do think we should prevent the qualification to be very strict or detailed though, as it'll lead to too much discussion
Ge0rGSeriously though, the list on xmpp.org is intended for people who don't have an XMPP client yet.
Guusbut a simple stoplight type of deal would owrk.
Ge0rGI can't see any rational reason to tell them about Pidgin, except not to use it.
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GuusI think that it does add value for many people, even if it does not for you.
Ge0rGGuus: what kind of value do you thin it adds?
Ge0rGGuus: what kind of value do you think it adds?
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GuusGe0rG whatever makes the gazillion people that use it for XMPP today think of it.
ZashMaybe have an Subjective Persons Pick of the Week thing before the full list?
GuusAlso: if people see it on that list, and are used to pidgin, but see that there are many better clients (by looking at that traffic light), they might be motivated to explore what better things are out there.
MattJZash, and in 4 weeks we run out of clients ;)
Ge0rGGuus: ask jonasw what he thinks of it.
ZashSomeone (read: Ge0rG) could review clients and post under a big "NOT THE OFFICIAL BLAH OF THE XSF" banner on the blog
GuusGe0rG: I'm not disputing that it's lacking
Ge0rGZash: I'd be the Angry VideoGaming Nerd of XMPP clients.
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MarandaGe0rG yes but they're normally tracked with the full jid so I need to make another table that contains bare and I didn't want to do for non muc cases I guess I'll have to make a third one just in case
Ge0rGhi Maranda! Your message came in 4 hours late.
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MarandaI know i was without data
MarandaI exhausted credit
Ge0rGGuus: as long as we don't have a formal mechanism to put clients into "good", "bad" and "ugly" lists, and the appropriate tooling on the web site, I'm strongly against putting pidgin onto the list.
GuusGe0rG: my formal mechanism is your gut. 🙂
Ge0rGWikipedia has huge tables of XMPP clients, sortable by criteria and listing some "important" aspects.
MarandaAnd exhausted it just I was typing said message too
Maranda😎
Seve/SouLListing 'Minimum decent experience' clients and 'others', could even motivate client developers to work on their client.
This way we can add to the list more clients and also specify which ones you should choose first.
If adding clients to the list is what we aim for.
GuusGe0rG: i don't want to keep that kind of detailed data on our site. That'll be always out of date, and lead to too much bickering. Just a "good/bad/ugly" qualifier that's based on whatever the XSF member(s) in charge of the list semi-objective thought on the matter is, is good enough for me.
Zashsemi-objective in a semi-official place is weird tho
GuusZash: better than the alternative, perhaps
Ge0rGGuus: so you and jonasw disagree, we'll have an edit war?
GuusGe0rG: no, because we're sensible people.
Guus... at least jonas is.
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Ge0rGI wish that'd be true for all XSF members.
GuusI think we can strive to an acceptable compromise on a 1to3 level of things.
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Guusgiven the semi-objectes arguments based on compliance levels, I don't think there'll be much discussion between the highest and lowest levels anyways, so compromising should be doable.
Guuswe're not having an edit war now, do we? And we both have the ability to add/remove pidgin today. 🙂
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ZashCertified Approved by Guus, Ge0rG or jonasw on arbitrary subjective grounds™
GuusZash: I'll order that in rubber stamp format.
ZashI'll order a tiny "Zash approves" rubber stamp to stamp on those stamps.
Ge0rGI don't think there are any clients that would deserve the "Approved by Ge0rG" stamp.
Guusinstead of the compliance levels, we could have "things that Ge0rG complains about a lot / sometimes / hardly ever."
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Ge0rGGuus: I like that.
GuusWe would require you to complain to some degree on everything on the list then, though.
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Ge0rGSomeone will have to provide me with the required devices to run the shit to complain about, then.
ZashMaybe do a community survey on rankings?
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Guus"shit doesn't run on my device" is a valid complaint.
Guusoh shit, kids
Guusneed to pick them up
Guusbyes! 🙂
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jonasw
Falling out of Debian's own wrangling with the upcoming EU GPDR
regulation, I thought it might be a good idea to have a cross-
community discussion group to discuss the GDPR and its impact on
free software and free culture projects.
This has now been setup here:
https://www.earth.li/mailman/listinfo/gdpr-discuss
Please feel free to pass the link onto other communities who would
be interested in participating.
Best wishes,
--
,''`.
: :' : Chris Lamb, Debian Project Leader
`. `'` lamby@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
`-