XSF Discussion - 2018-04-12

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  254. jonasw Maranda, requesting the config form is a smart thing to do, because usually you want to offer configuration to the user.
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  336. Maranda jonasw, for muc? I'm not sure the end user will know what to do with it also as MattJ said if something does it like Gajim does you may end with an undefinitely locked room
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  338. Kev Why not just do what Swift does?
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  340. Kev "[x] Automatically configure new rooms"
  341. Maranda And regarding subject I decided to send it after the room is unlocked
  342. Zash Sensible defaults? Never!
  343. Maranda Kev, or just request an instant room
  344. Kev We didn't even have that to start with, but we had people who required reserved rooms.
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  346. Kev Maranda: I think that's not one of the two obvious readings of the spec :)
  347. Maranda I think lovetox is more incline on auto requesting an instant room though
  348. Maranda Even because if you cancel the config form the room has to be destroyed ™️
  349. Zash > undefinitely locked room say what?
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  351. Maranda Yes
  352. Maranda Undefinitely locked room
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  355. jonasw i think you meant: indefinitely
  356. Maranda Whatever
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  358. Maranda I'm an illiterate english wise 😜
  359. Zash Keep a timestamp and unlock or destroy it on some timeout?
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  361. Maranda Possible, but how much time and what happens if the user just creates the room and goes to pick up a coffee (leaving the config form open)
  362. Maranda That's not too silly either
  363. Maranda As example
  364. Zash Measure how long it takes to fetch coffee
  365. Ge0rG Unlock the room if the user leaves prior to finishing configuration
  366. jonasw allow to create rooms by just submitting a config form to a MUC JID?
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  369. Maranda Or join and just request an instant room
  370. Maranda It's already provided
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  372. Ge0rG I think instant rooms are underspecified in 0045
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  375. Maranda Ge0rG well I didn't even know about all this mess before yesterday, and/or I suppose my brain could've just removed it because it's too messy
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  377. Ge0rG Maranda: so I made you have nightmares about MUC? Yay.
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  380. Maranda About all this locking mess yeah it's horrible UX wise, but I have to care about the protocol not UX ultimately
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  421. jonasw does gajim 1.x still do resource locking?
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  427. Maranda I suppose, never experienced chat disjoints (yet)
  428. jonasw :/
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  441. Ge0rG Maranda: what? you put protocol over UX?
  442. jonasw as a server deve, I think that’s a valid argument ;-)
  443. Maranda Ge0rG, shiny things is your thing mine is the rubbery below that..? 🤷‍♂️
  444. Maranda 😘
  445. Ge0rG Maranda: if the protocol goes against UX, it needs to be ignored and/or repaired.
  446. Maranda Indeed but since there's a standard I have to abide to that
  447. Maranda Until it's fixed ™️
  448. Ge0rG Maranda: there are server devs in this MUC who have ignored the standard to improve UX
  449. Ge0rG > Until it's fixed ™️ So did you submit a PR? An XEP?
  450. Maranda Submit a PR to muc?
  451. jonasw sure
  452. Maranda I would remove the locking mechanism completely and leave instant rooms while I understand the reasons below it
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  455. Maranda That's my PR
  456. Ge0rG Maranda: I've submitted multiple PRs already ;)
  457. Ge0rG Maranda: a PR is a diff against the XEP xml
  458. Ge0rG not a sentence on this MUC :D
  459. Maranda I can already see a lot of people voting against it
  460. Maranda I know
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  462. Maranda But that's what it would be
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  464. Maranda And then I'd need some editor to re edit it and make it comprehensible for the masses too.
  465. Maranda eyes jonasw?
  466. Maranda 🤣
  467. Ge0rG Maranda: you could collaborate with an editor
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  470. jonasw the way pubsub does it would be cool. create a room by sending a config form along. if the room exists -> conflict, if it doesn’t exist -> configure as specified by the client (if possible, otherwise error)
  471. Ge0rG jonasw: for instant rooms, I'd argue that the server should assign a room name.
  472. Maranda Yes that's indeedly a better solution
  473. Ge0rG <iq to=chat.yax.im><gimme-a-room-pse>
  474. jonasw gah
  475. Ge0rG s/room name/room JID/
  476. Maranda jonasw's for sending the config form, but then rooms aren't persistant by default
  477. Maranda So we get into an implementation issue
  478. jonasw …?
  479. jonasw the client would send a config form with persistent set to treu.....
  480. jonasw gotta go
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  482. Maranda And what about non persistant members only rooms mr. "jonasw gotta go“ 🤨
  483. Maranda le sighs
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  485. jonasw Maranda, what?
  486. jonasw the client can request whatever it needs?
  487. jonasw I don’t see your problem.
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  489. Maranda That a non persistant room to exists needs someone in it, that's what all the locking junk is about
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  491. jonasw ahhhh
  492. jonasw so?
  493. jonasw <presence><x><create-config>form goes here</create-config></x></presence>
  494. Maranda So what I said above applies as issue in your solution
  495. jonasw this joins and creates the room
  496. jonasw and configures
  497. Maranda Ok that could work 😁
  498. jonasw I don’t see the problem with that.
  499. jonasw :)
  500. jonasw and it’s atomic, which is neat
  501. jonasw much better than MUC logging
  502. jonasw wtf
  503. jonasw what did I just write
  504. jonasw locking is what I meant
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  507. jonasw I need lunch, gotta go now for real
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  513. Maranda jonasw your "work like in pubsub" didn't trigger the "publish-options" example in my head (which fits more than "create-and-configure" and won't apply for non persistant)
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  515. Maranda s/and won't/that won't/
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  525. Maranda And well GC1.0 breaks spim blocking horribly for mucs
  526. Ge0rG Maranda: does it?
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  528. Maranda needs to add additional tracking.
  529. Maranda Yes
  530. Maranda And I sense a tip of <sarcasm/> there Ge0rG 😜
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  532. Ge0rG Maranda: and I sense a large pinch of generalized statement.
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  535. Maranda Ge0rG muc private messages, I track directed presences with the x element atm
  536. Maranda I'll have to track all directed presences using bare instead but that's a bit more expensive
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  538. Maranda On GC1 private messages will break mod_spim_block
  539. Maranda Atm
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  542. Ge0rG Maranda: don't you have to track all directed presences anyway?
  543. Ge0rG Maranda: the funny part is when you try to join a nick as `Maranda`, but the MUC tells you that you joined as `Dumbass` instead. It will break both most clients and presence tracking!
  544. Ge0rG join a MUC
  545. Ge0rG (no offense intended)
  546. daniel source for 'it will break most clients'
  547. Ge0rG daniel: maybe yours is a notable exception, but please don't generalize that.
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  550. daniel i'm just wondering if you actually experienced clients breaking on this?
  551. Ge0rG I know of two that will be broken.
  552. Ge0rG with different degrees of brokenness.
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  554. Kev Servers changing MUC nicks will certainly break things. How much things break might vary, but it'll screw things up.
  555. Kev You need both your client to understand it sensibly and your server to do unspecified things.
  556. Ge0rG Kev: I think there are two different cases here; a MUC telling you that you joined with a different nickname, vs. changing your nickname later on
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  558. daniel maybe sometimes you need to break things to have nice things
  559. daniel something something omelettes
  560. daniel but it's pretty reckless to have the renaming in 45 w/o a way for the client to signal that it will be able to process that
  561. Kev 45 is broken in many interesting ways.
  562. Ge0rG daniel: yeah, but we can solve that. Just have the MUC service keep a mapping of (actual client nickname <-> what the client thinks its nickname is) and add some renaming on conflicts
  563. Ge0rG so if my client thinks I'm `Ge0rG`, but I'm actually `Not_Ge0rG` in the MUC, when the real `Ge0rG` sends a groupchat message, I will see it as coming from `The_other_Ge0rG`. Easy!
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  565. jonasw whatthefuck
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  567. pep. Sorry I haven't done the minutes of the gdpr meeting yet :(
  568. jonasw I might have a conflict next tuesday, my boss is looking to sort this out.
  569. pep. k, we can move if necessary I guess
  570. jonasw if and only if this conflicts, I’ll be available on wednesday instead of tuesday.
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  627. jonasw conflict resolved
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  671. Ge0rG Ah, minutes are in. Always a pleasure to read.
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  727. MattJ .
  728. Guus I'm here
  729. Guus (but in a meeting)
  730. MattJ Ending soon?
  731. MattJ Nyco sent apologies
  732. Guus god knows ...
  733. MattJ I know the kind :)
  734. Dave Cridland has left
  735. Guus I can lurk here
  736. MattJ Martin, around?
  737. Martin Yup, sorry, chat window popped onto the wrong monitor
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  741. MattJ I haven't heard anything from Ralph
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  745. Guus can any of you start off?
  746. Guus I have to pay some attention to this meeting 😕
  747. nyco has left
  748. MattJ Pinged Ralph but no response. I'm not sure of the value of starting with 2.5 members present - unless you want to be counted as a 1
  749. Martin I agree, probably a better idea to defer until next week
  750. nyco has joined
  751. Dave Cridland And then there were four. Or maybe 3.5.
  752. Guus Ok, meeting over 🙂
  753. MattJ Ok
  754. MattJ Let's do what we can
  755. MattJ 0) Role call
  756. Guus I'm here!
  757. MattJ Me, Martin, Guus
  758. MattJ nyco, sent apologies (but is here if he wants to retract them)
  759. MattJ Anyone have anything for the agenda?
  760. Guus (nope)
  761. MattJ Anyone free to take minutes?
  762. Guus <--
  763. MattJ Thanks!
  764. MattJ No decisions to make this week, it seems
  765. MattJ 1) Commitments
  766. MattJ 1.1) Membership survey
  767. MattJ I've converted the survey to a Google Form, you can take a look here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdZL6iNYhLJCTWYg3vZ_2XEC5dYrzeQuZtaJZ3OdJFL2UwFpQ/viewform
  768. Ge0rG MattJ: there is an item to decide, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
  769. Guus Can I fill that out as a test/
  770. Guus or will my responses be inrevocable?
  771. MattJ Feedback welcome. Main open questions I think we need to decide: should it require an email address? (I say yes), and who should the survey be for? XSF members only? or the community at large?
  772. MattJ Guus, feel free
  773. Tobias has joined
  774. Guus if we're doing this for members only (my preference), I'd make change the email field in a name field.
  775. Ge0rG MattJ: what is the email required for?
  776. Alex has left
  777. MattJ Ge0rG, follow-up, preventing duplicate responses
  778. Ge0rG MattJ: that should be stated in the form
  779. MattJ and if we opt for members-only, potentially verification
  780. MattJ Ge0rG, is that with your GDPR hat on? ;)
  781. Ge0rG (maybe we should discuss the details off-meeting)
  782. Ge0rG MattJ: not only
  783. Ge0rG MattJ: if somebody asks me for my email, I want to know why.
  784. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  785. MattJ Ok, we can discuss. I'd like to send the form out before the next meeting
  786. MattJ We're short on time, so let's move on
  787. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  788. Guus as I said: I think a member-only thing is most suitable: if only because we know these people to have some affection with XMPP.
  789. Guus and with that, an email is not 'needed' (as we know who you are)
  790. MattJ Guus, I worry that may exclude some valuable opinions (the XSF may be a bit of a bubble)
  791. MattJ For example, lots of memberships have lapsed - we might be able to learn why
  792. Guus fair
  793. Guus ok, you won me over
  794. MattJ 1.2) Online swag shop
  795. MattJ Nyco sent some details to the board list
  796. jere has joined
  797. MattJ If we go ahead, I'd opt for not having any up-front costs
  798. winfried has left
  799. Guus perhaps first decide if we do want to go ahead?
  800. MattJ I think last week we agreed on going ahead with the research
  801. winfried has left
  802. MattJ Research is done (?)
  803. SamWhited has left
  804. Guus sure
  805. MattJ What reasons are there to not go ahead?
  806. winfried has left
  807. MattJ I can't think of any, it's essentially an experiment though
  808. Guus (I don't have any major ones, but so far, it's only been three people talking about this)
  809. Martin Do we know who'd come up with the creative elements? Or would we just use existing logo assets?
  810. winfried has left
  811. MattJ Martin, I assumed the latter, but that's a good point - we may want to do more than that (as we have done for FOSDEM in the past)
  812. Guus Martin: I think this'd be best served by the comms team, but possibily scam as well?
  813. winfried has left
  814. MattJ But then someone has to volunteer to do that
  815. Ge0rG there might be taxation issues for the XSF
  816. winfried has left
  817. Ge0rG whoever is responsible for the XSF tax forms should be asked first.
  818. winfried has left
  819. Guus that's sensible
  820. MattJ I assume it's no different to selling t-shirts at FOSDEM, but we probably should
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  823. Guus Peter, as the Treasurer (and general -has-been-around-forever-and-knows-everything-) might be able to help here
  824. MattJ Guus, do you want to add it to your list? :)
  825. winfried has left
  826. Guus k
  827. MattJ Thanks
  828. MattJ So let's do that, and push the final decision on this off for another week when hopefully we'll have more voices
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  832. MattJ 1.3) Collect information on the role and responsibilities of the executive officer
  833. Guus has left
  834. MattJ Martin, any success with this so far?
  835. Zash has left
  836. Martin Unfortunately not. I'm about to leave one job and start another one, so my week's just been eaten up. Sorry.
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  838. MattJ The title of the card is inaccurate, we're specifically discussing the Executive Director role
  839. Guus change it? 🙂
  840. MattJ Shall do
  841. winfried has left
  842. MattJ 2) Items for discussion
  843. MattJ Guus, financing - ongoing I believe?
  844. winfried has left
  845. Guus yeah, i've send out emails (cc'ed board), but no responses so far.
  846. MattJ Noted
  847. Guus other than that, i've not started anything on the subject myself.
  848. MattJ Other item is ED search which is blocked on the other task
  849. winfried has left
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  851. MattJ 3) We've hit our time, does anyone have important AOB?
  852. MattJ Ge0rG highlighted that PR about Pidgin
  853. winfried has left
  854. MattJ I haven't read it yet, and don't really know what's going on, so I'd rather push that to next week
  855. Guus I've commented on that in the PR
  856. MattJ and maybe give some feedback in the interim
  857. MattJ Ok
  858. Guus no AOBs from me.
  859. MattJ 4) Date of next
  860. winfried has left
  861. MattJ +1w
  862. MattJ 5) Close
  863. Guus wfm
  864. MattJ Thanks all!
  865. Guus thank you!
  866. Martin Thanks MattJ
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  871. MattJ Ge0rG, ok, I see the issue. The neutrality issue is actually in the community survey so that might provide some data on what people would like to see here
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  874. MattJ Personally, I'd be fine with including it if we had the right markings next to it indicating that it is not up to date with the latest protocols
  875. Valerian has left
  876. MattJ But down that road lies a whole kettle of worms
  877. Ge0rG MattJ: I know. I'm not the one asking easy questions :P
  878. MattJ Someone needs to determine what the compliance level is. If it's self-reported, someone needs to verify that
  879. Guus has left
  880. MattJ (or do they really? Probably some competitor will submit a PR to fix it and we'll need to resolve the dispute :) )
  881. Ge0rG We don't have compliance level requirements.
  882. Ge0rG Back when introducing the new policy, I wanted to make it more clear that only application authors are allowed to submit their respective application.
  883. Ge0rG However, even that opinion was controversial.
  884. jjrh has left
  885. MattJ It's hard to enforce, would be my main concern
  886. MattJ In open-source projects the line isn't always clearly defined
  887. Zash Are only application authors allowed to?
  888. MattJ If someone submits a couple of patches, are they allowed?
  889. MattJ If they only maintain the documentation, are they allowed?
  890. Zash Or if they are on the inofficial marketing team by speaking positively about your project at least once? :)
  891. MattJ This is why that plan to have XMPP projects host some metadata on their domain would be the best option
  892. Zash But if the current situation is that project authors won't even bother submitting a one line patch, who's going to motivate them to author such a metadata file?
  893. MattJ The people who are currently trying to submit the projects to us :)
  894. Guus I'm not a fan of restricting applications to that JSON file
  895. Ge0rG We as the XMPP community have a huge quality issue. We won't solve it by having "inofficial marketing volunteers" submit zombies to The Official Client List
  896. MattJ Guus, why so?
  897. Guus Because being the one that created the app doesn't uniquely qualify you to add it to our list.
  898. Guus Hell, I think I've added a couple of clients on there.
  899. Zash Also, me, being against forcing people onto singular platforms, feel meh about it being done by github pr.
  900. Ge0rG Zash: you can send .diff files
  901. Guus Why would we limit our list by denying entries from enthousiastic users that are not devs?
  902. jjrh has left
  903. Ge0rG Guus: because enthusiastic users don't know whether their favorite client is actually good for the general audience.
  904. MattJ Guus, it depends entirely on the purpose of the list
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  906. Ge0rG At least less so than the developer.
  907. MattJ I think you and Ge0rG have different opinions on that
  908. Guus It's up to us to merge or reject the PR.
  909. Guus so quality control is up to us. I'd be happy for anyone to offer suggestions for us to put on those lists.
  910. jjrh has left
  911. Zash Was the purpose of the renewal not to filter out inactive projects.
  912. Ge0rG Zash: yes
  913. Zash Pidgin is not an inactive project, even it's not moving very fast.
  914. Ge0rG Guus: what kind of quality control do you want to apply, that doesn't violate the Holy XSF Neutrality Stance.
  915. jjrh has left
  916. Guus Ge0rg: a judgement if the entry is appropriate. I've denied stuff before.
  917. Ge0rG Guus: judgment on which grounds?
  918. Guus lemme think
  919. Ge0rG Guus: I agree with you that we want quality clients there. But we need to have some formal grounds for that
  920. Martin has left
  921. Guus i think I denied at least two, because they were XMPP-based silos (that did not federate)
  922. Guus Oh, but then we disagree 🙂
  923. MattJ FWIW I had multiple conversations with ex-XMPP users who had moved to other platforms because XMPP can't do $feature
  924. Guus I don't think quality is a requirement.
  925. MattJ When it turns out they were Pidgin users, and don't even have Carbons
  926. Guus as that's subjective, at times.
  927. Guus exactly, lots of people are happy with Pidgin, even fi we're not
  928. MattJ and this has given me the opinion that Pidgin is harmful to XMPP, as it stands
  929. Guus so I'wouldn't mind adding it
  930. MattJ No, these people left XMPP because of Pidgin
  931. Seve/SouL Maybe gathering a minimum of XEPs implemented?
  932. Ge0rG Guus: except that pidgin makes your XMPP experience break in unexpected ways if you add another client
  933. Seve/SouL for IM.
  934. Ge0rG Seve/SouL: like the Compliance Suite?
  935. MattJ Pidgin is extremely popular (whether we list it or not)
  936. MattJ and for a significant number of XMPP users, it *is* XMPP
  937. Ge0rG Pidgin and Zom on top of Cisco Jabber.
  938. MattJ XMPP does not support Carbons or MAM if Pidgin does not support Carbons or MAM
  939. Guus Matt, that's why I think we'd better list it, but with some kind of footnote.
  940. Valerian has joined
  941. Ge0rG we need a traffic light, and pidgin will be red.
  942. Guus has left
  943. Ge0rG except colorblind.
  944. Seve/SouL Ge0rG, I don't know how many active/good clients would the Compliance Suite exclude, but yes. Something like 'minimum decent experience'. This way we even could list clients that have these features or more, and 'others' that do not, like Pidgin or whatever.
  945. jjrh has left
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  947. Ge0rG As long as yaxim ends up on the "good" side, and Pidgin on the "bad" one, I don't care :P
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  950. Seve/SouL Heh
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  952. Guus Seve, I largely agree. I do think we should prevent the qualification to be very strict or detailed though, as it'll lead to too much discussion
  953. Ge0rG Seriously though, the list on xmpp.org is intended for people who don't have an XMPP client yet.
  954. Guus but a simple stoplight type of deal would owrk.
  955. Ge0rG I can't see any rational reason to tell them about Pidgin, except not to use it.
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  958. Guus I think that it does add value for many people, even if it does not for you.
  959. Ge0rG Guus: what kind of value do you thin it adds?
  960. Ge0rG Guus: what kind of value do you think it adds?
  961. jjrh has left
  962. Guus Ge0rG whatever makes the gazillion people that use it for XMPP today think of it.
  963. Zash Maybe have an Subjective Persons Pick of the Week thing before the full list?
  964. Guus Also: if people see it on that list, and are used to pidgin, but see that there are many better clients (by looking at that traffic light), they might be motivated to explore what better things are out there.
  965. MattJ Zash, and in 4 weeks we run out of clients ;)
  966. Ge0rG Guus: ask jonasw what he thinks of it.
  967. Zash Someone (read: Ge0rG) could review clients and post under a big "NOT THE OFFICIAL BLAH OF THE XSF" banner on the blog
  968. Guus Ge0rG: I'm not disputing that it's lacking
  969. Ge0rG Zash: I'd be the Angry VideoGaming Nerd of XMPP clients.
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  972. Maranda Ge0rG yes but they're normally tracked with the full jid so I need to make another table that contains bare and I didn't want to do for non muc cases I guess I'll have to make a third one just in case
  973. Ge0rG hi Maranda! Your message came in 4 hours late.
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  976. Maranda I know i was without data
  977. Maranda I exhausted credit
  978. Ge0rG Guus: as long as we don't have a formal mechanism to put clients into "good", "bad" and "ugly" lists, and the appropriate tooling on the web site, I'm strongly against putting pidgin onto the list.
  979. Guus Ge0rG: my formal mechanism is your gut. 🙂
  980. Ge0rG Wikipedia has huge tables of XMPP clients, sortable by criteria and listing some "important" aspects.
  981. Maranda And exhausted it just I was typing said message too
  982. Maranda 😎
  983. Seve/SouL Listing 'Minimum decent experience' clients and 'others', could even motivate client developers to work on their client. This way we can add to the list more clients and also specify which ones you should choose first. If adding clients to the list is what we aim for.
  984. Guus Ge0rG: i don't want to keep that kind of detailed data on our site. That'll be always out of date, and lead to too much bickering. Just a "good/bad/ugly" qualifier that's based on whatever the XSF member(s) in charge of the list semi-objective thought on the matter is, is good enough for me.
  985. Zash semi-objective in a semi-official place is weird tho
  986. Guus Zash: better than the alternative, perhaps
  987. Ge0rG Guus: so you and jonasw disagree, we'll have an edit war?
  988. Guus Ge0rG: no, because we're sensible people.
  989. Guus ... at least jonas is.
  990. Martin has joined
  991. Ge0rG I wish that'd be true for all XSF members.
  992. Guus I think we can strive to an acceptable compromise on a 1to3 level of things.
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  994. Guus given the semi-objectes arguments based on compliance levels, I don't think there'll be much discussion between the highest and lowest levels anyways, so compromising should be doable.
  995. Guus we're not having an edit war now, do we? And we both have the ability to add/remove pidgin today. 🙂
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  999. Zash Certified Approved by Guus, Ge0rG or jonasw on arbitrary subjective grounds™
  1000. Guus Zash: I'll order that in rubber stamp format.
  1001. Zash I'll order a tiny "Zash approves" rubber stamp to stamp on those stamps.
  1002. Ge0rG I don't think there are any clients that would deserve the "Approved by Ge0rG" stamp.
  1003. Guus instead of the compliance levels, we could have "things that Ge0rG complains about a lot / sometimes / hardly ever."
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  1006. Ge0rG Guus: I like that.
  1007. Guus We would require you to complain to some degree on everything on the list then, though.
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  1010. Ge0rG Someone will have to provide me with the required devices to run the shit to complain about, then.
  1011. Zash Maybe do a community survey on rankings?
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  1014. Guus "shit doesn't run on my device" is a valid complaint.
  1015. Guus oh shit, kids
  1016. Guus need to pick them up
  1017. Guus byes! 🙂
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  1119. jonasw Falling out of Debian's own wrangling with the upcoming EU GPDR regulation, I thought it might be a good idea to have a cross- community discussion group to discuss the GDPR and its impact on free software and free culture projects. This has now been setup here: https://www.earth.li/mailman/listinfo/gdpr-discuss Please feel free to pass the link onto other communities who would be interested in participating. Best wishes, -- ,''`. : :' : Chris Lamb, Debian Project Leader `. `'` lamby@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk `-
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