Maranda, requesting the config form is a smart thing to do, because usually you want to offer configuration to the user.
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Maranda
jonasw, for muc? I'm not sure the end user will know what to do with it also as MattJ said if something does it like Gajim does you may end with an undefinitely locked room
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Kev
Why not just do what Swift does?
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Kev
"[x] Automatically configure new rooms"
Maranda
And regarding subject I decided to send it after the room is unlocked
Zash
Sensible defaults? Never!
Maranda
Kev, or just request an instant room
Kev
We didn't even have that to start with, but we had people who required reserved rooms.
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Kev
Maranda: I think that's not one of the two obvious readings of the spec :)
Maranda
I think lovetox is more incline on auto requesting an instant room though
Maranda
Even because if you cancel the config form the room has to be destroyed ™️
Zash
> undefinitely locked room
say what?
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Maranda
Yes
Maranda
Undefinitely locked room
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jonasw
i think you meant: indefinitely
Maranda
Whatever
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Maranda
I'm an illiterate english wise 😜
Zash
Keep a timestamp and unlock or destroy it on some timeout?
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Maranda
Possible, but how much time and what happens if the user just creates the room and goes to pick up a coffee (leaving the config form open)
Maranda
That's not too silly either
Maranda
As example
Zash
Measure how long it takes to fetch coffee
Ge0rG
Unlock the room if the user leaves prior to finishing configuration
jonasw
allow to create rooms by just submitting a config form to a MUC JID?
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Maranda
Or join and just request an instant room
Maranda
It's already provided
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Ge0rG
I think instant rooms are underspecified in 0045
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Maranda
Ge0rG well I didn't even know about all this mess before yesterday, and/or I suppose my brain could've just removed it because it's too messy
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Ge0rG
Maranda: so I made you have nightmares about MUC? Yay.
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Maranda
About all this locking mess yeah it's horrible UX wise, but I have to care about the protocol not UX ultimately
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jonasw
does gajim 1.x still do resource locking?
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Maranda
I suppose, never experienced chat disjoints (yet)
jonasw
:/
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Ge0rG
Maranda: what? you put protocol over UX?
jonasw
as a server deve, I think that’s a valid argument ;-)
Maranda
Ge0rG, shiny things is your thing mine is the rubbery below that..? 🤷♂️
Maranda
😘
Ge0rG
Maranda: if the protocol goes against UX, it needs to be ignored and/or repaired.
Maranda
Indeed but since there's a standard I have to abide to that
Maranda
Until it's fixed ™️
Ge0rG
Maranda: there are server devs in this MUC who have ignored the standard to improve UX
Ge0rG
> Until it's fixed ™️
So did you submit a PR? An XEP?
Maranda
Submit a PR to muc?
jonasw
sure
Maranda
I would remove the locking mechanism completely and leave instant rooms while I understand the reasons below it
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Maranda
That's my PR
Ge0rG
Maranda: I've submitted multiple PRs already ;)
Ge0rG
Maranda: a PR is a diff against the XEP xml
Ge0rG
not a sentence on this MUC :D
Maranda
I can already see a lot of people voting against it
Maranda
I know
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Maranda
But that's what it would be
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Maranda
And then I'd need some editor to re edit it and make it comprehensible for the masses too.
Marandaeyes jonasw?
Maranda
🤣
Ge0rG
Maranda: you could collaborate with an editor
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jonasw
the way pubsub does it would be cool. create a room by sending a config form along. if the room exists -> conflict, if it doesn’t exist -> configure as specified by the client (if possible, otherwise error)
Ge0rG
jonasw: for instant rooms, I'd argue that the server should assign a room name.
Maranda
Yes that's indeedly a better solution
Ge0rG
<iq to=chat.yax.im><gimme-a-room-pse>
jonasw
gah
Ge0rG
s/room name/room JID/
Maranda
jonasw's for sending the config form, but then rooms aren't persistant by default
Maranda
So we get into an implementation issue
jonasw
…?
jonasw
the client would send a config form with persistent set to treu.....
jonasw
gotta go
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Maranda
And what about non persistant members only rooms mr. "jonasw gotta go“ 🤨
Marandale sighs
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jonasw
Maranda, what?
jonasw
the client can request whatever it needs?
jonasw
I don’t see your problem.
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Maranda
That a non persistant room to exists needs someone in it, that's what all the locking junk is about
So what I said above applies as issue in your solution
jonasw
this joins and creates the room
jonasw
and configures
Maranda
Ok that could work 😁
jonasw
I don’t see the problem with that.
jonasw
:)
jonasw
and it’s atomic, which is neat
jonasw
much better than MUC logging
jonasw
wtf
jonasw
what did I just write
jonasw
locking is what I meant
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jonasw
I need lunch, gotta go now for real
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Maranda
jonasw your "work like in pubsub" didn't trigger the "publish-options" example in my head (which fits more than "create-and-configure" and won't apply for non persistant)
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Maranda
s/and won't/that won't/
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Maranda
And well GC1.0 breaks spim blocking horribly for mucs
Ge0rG
Maranda: does it?
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Marandaneeds to add additional tracking.
Maranda
Yes
Maranda
And I sense a tip of <sarcasm/> there Ge0rG 😜
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Ge0rG
Maranda: and I sense a large pinch of generalized statement.
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Maranda
Ge0rG muc private messages, I track directed presences with the x element atm
Maranda
I'll have to track all directed presences using bare instead but that's a bit more expensive
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Maranda
On GC1 private messages will break mod_spim_block
Maranda
Atm
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Ge0rG
Maranda: don't you have to track all directed presences anyway?
Ge0rG
Maranda: the funny part is when you try to join a nick as `Maranda`, but the MUC tells you that you joined as `Dumbass` instead. It will break both most clients and presence tracking!
Ge0rG
join a MUC
Ge0rG
(no offense intended)
daniel
source for 'it will break most clients'
Ge0rG
daniel: maybe yours is a notable exception, but please don't generalize that.
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daniel
i'm just wondering if you actually experienced clients breaking on this?
Ge0rG
I know of two that will be broken.
Ge0rG
with different degrees of brokenness.
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Kev
Servers changing MUC nicks will certainly break things. How much things break might vary, but it'll screw things up.
Kev
You need both your client to understand it sensibly and your server to do unspecified things.
Ge0rG
Kev: I think there are two different cases here; a MUC telling you that you joined with a different nickname, vs. changing your nickname later on
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daniel
maybe sometimes you need to break things to have nice things
daniel
something something omelettes
daniel
but it's pretty reckless to have the renaming in 45 w/o a way for the client to signal that it will be able to process that
Kev
45 is broken in many interesting ways.
Ge0rG
daniel: yeah, but we can solve that. Just have the MUC service keep a mapping of (actual client nickname <-> what the client thinks its nickname is) and add some renaming on conflicts
Ge0rG
so if my client thinks I'm `Ge0rG`, but I'm actually `Not_Ge0rG` in the MUC, when the real `Ge0rG` sends a groupchat message, I will see it as coming from `The_other_Ge0rG`. Easy!
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jonasw
whatthefuck
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pep.
Sorry I haven't done the minutes of the gdpr meeting yet :(
jonasw
I might have a conflict next tuesday, my boss is looking to sort this out.
pep.
k, we can move if necessary I guess
jonasw
if and only if this conflicts, I’ll be available on wednesday instead of tuesday.
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jonasw
conflict resolved
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Ge0rG
Ah, minutes are in. Always a pleasure to read.
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MattJ
.
Guus
I'm here
Guus
(but in a meeting)
MattJ
Ending soon?
MattJ
Nyco sent apologies
Guus
god knows ...
MattJ
I know the kind :)
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Guus
I can lurk here
MattJ
Martin, around?
Martin
Yup, sorry, chat window popped onto the wrong monitor
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MattJ
I haven't heard anything from Ralph
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Guus
can any of you start off?
Guus
I have to pay some attention to this meeting 😕
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MattJ
Pinged Ralph but no response. I'm not sure of the value of starting with 2.5 members present - unless you want to be counted as a 1
Martin
I agree, probably a better idea to defer until next week
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Dave Cridland
And then there were four. Or maybe 3.5.
Guus
Ok, meeting over 🙂
MattJ
Ok
MattJ
Let's do what we can
MattJ
0) Role call
Guus
I'm here!
MattJ
Me, Martin, Guus
MattJ
nyco, sent apologies (but is here if he wants to retract them)
MattJ
Anyone have anything for the agenda?
Guus
(nope)
MattJ
Anyone free to take minutes?
Guus
<--
MattJ
Thanks!
MattJ
No decisions to make this week, it seems
MattJ
1) Commitments
MattJ
1.1) Membership survey
MattJ
I've converted the survey to a Google Form, you can take a look here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdZL6iNYhLJCTWYg3vZ_2XEC5dYrzeQuZtaJZ3OdJFL2UwFpQ/viewform
Ge0rG
MattJ: there is an item to decide, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425
Guus
Can I fill that out as a test/
Guus
or will my responses be inrevocable?
MattJ
Feedback welcome. Main open questions I think we need to decide: should it require an email address? (I say yes), and who should the survey be for? XSF members only? or the community at large?
MattJ
Guus, feel free
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Guus
if we're doing this for members only (my preference), I'd make change the email field in a name field.
Ge0rG
MattJ: what is the email required for?
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MattJ
Ge0rG, follow-up, preventing duplicate responses
Ge0rG
MattJ: that should be stated in the form
MattJ
and if we opt for members-only, potentially verification
MattJ
Ge0rG, is that with your GDPR hat on? ;)
Ge0rG
(maybe we should discuss the details off-meeting)
Ge0rG
MattJ: not only
Ge0rG
MattJ: if somebody asks me for my email, I want to know why.
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MattJ
Ok, we can discuss. I'd like to send the form out before the next meeting
MattJ
We're short on time, so let's move on
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Guus
as I said: I think a member-only thing is most suitable: if only because we know these people to have some affection with XMPP.
Guus
and with that, an email is not 'needed' (as we know who you are)
MattJ
Guus, I worry that may exclude some valuable opinions (the XSF may be a bit of a bubble)
MattJ
For example, lots of memberships have lapsed - we might be able to learn why
Guus
fair
Guus
ok, you won me over
MattJ
1.2) Online swag shop
MattJ
Nyco sent some details to the board list
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MattJ
If we go ahead, I'd opt for not having any up-front costs
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Guus
perhaps first decide if we do want to go ahead?
MattJ
I think last week we agreed on going ahead with the research
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MattJ
Research is done (?)
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Guus
sure
MattJ
What reasons are there to not go ahead?
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MattJ
I can't think of any, it's essentially an experiment though
Guus
(I don't have any major ones, but so far, it's only been three people talking about this)
Martin
Do we know who'd come up with the creative elements? Or would we just use existing logo assets?
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MattJ
Martin, I assumed the latter, but that's a good point - we may want to do more than that (as we have done for FOSDEM in the past)
Guus
Martin: I think this'd be best served by the comms team, but possibily scam as well?
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MattJ
But then someone has to volunteer to do that
Ge0rG
there might be taxation issues for the XSF
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Ge0rG
whoever is responsible for the XSF tax forms should be asked first.
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Guus
that's sensible
MattJ
I assume it's no different to selling t-shirts at FOSDEM, but we probably should
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Guus
Peter, as the Treasurer (and general -has-been-around-forever-and-knows-everything-) might be able to help here
MattJ
Guus, do you want to add it to your list? :)
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Guus
k
MattJ
Thanks
MattJ
So let's do that, and push the final decision on this off for another week when hopefully we'll have more voices
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MattJ
1.3) Collect information on the role and responsibilities of the executive officer
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MattJ
Martin, any success with this so far?
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Martin
Unfortunately not. I'm about to leave one job and start another one, so my week's just been eaten up. Sorry.
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MattJ
The title of the card is inaccurate, we're specifically discussing the Executive Director role
Guus
change it? 🙂
MattJ
Shall do
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MattJ
2) Items for discussion
MattJ
Guus, financing - ongoing I believe?
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Guus
yeah, i've send out emails (cc'ed board), but no responses so far.
MattJ
Noted
Guus
other than that, i've not started anything on the subject myself.
MattJ
Other item is ED search which is blocked on the other task
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MattJ
3) We've hit our time, does anyone have important AOB?
MattJ
Ge0rG highlighted that PR about Pidgin
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MattJ
I haven't read it yet, and don't really know what's going on, so I'd rather push that to next week
Guus
I've commented on that in the PR
MattJ
and maybe give some feedback in the interim
MattJ
Ok
Guus
no AOBs from me.
MattJ
4) Date of next
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MattJ
+1w
MattJ
5) Close
Guus
wfm
MattJ
Thanks all!
Guus
thank you!
Martin
Thanks MattJ
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MattJ
Ge0rG, ok, I see the issue. The neutrality issue is actually in the community survey so that might provide some data on what people would like to see here
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MattJ
Personally, I'd be fine with including it if we had the right markings next to it indicating that it is not up to date with the latest protocols
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MattJ
But down that road lies a whole kettle of worms
Ge0rG
MattJ: I know. I'm not the one asking easy questions :P
MattJ
Someone needs to determine what the compliance level is. If it's self-reported, someone needs to verify that
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MattJ
(or do they really? Probably some competitor will submit a PR to fix it and we'll need to resolve the dispute :) )
Ge0rG
We don't have compliance level requirements.
Ge0rG
Back when introducing the new policy, I wanted to make it more clear that only application authors are allowed to submit their respective application.
Ge0rG
However, even that opinion was controversial.
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MattJ
It's hard to enforce, would be my main concern
MattJ
In open-source projects the line isn't always clearly defined
Zash
Are only application authors allowed to?
MattJ
If someone submits a couple of patches, are they allowed?
MattJ
If they only maintain the documentation, are they allowed?
Zash
Or if they are on the inofficial marketing team by speaking positively about your project at least once? :)
MattJ
This is why that plan to have XMPP projects host some metadata on their domain would be the best option
Zash
But if the current situation is that project authors won't even bother submitting a one line patch, who's going to motivate them to author such a metadata file?
MattJ
The people who are currently trying to submit the projects to us :)
Guus
I'm not a fan of restricting applications to that JSON file
Ge0rG
We as the XMPP community have a huge quality issue. We won't solve it by having "inofficial marketing volunteers" submit zombies to The Official Client List
MattJ
Guus, why so?
Guus
Because being the one that created the app doesn't uniquely qualify you to add it to our list.
Guus
Hell, I think I've added a couple of clients on there.
Zash
Also, me, being against forcing people onto singular platforms, feel meh about it being done by github pr.
Ge0rG
Zash: you can send .diff files
Guus
Why would we limit our list by denying entries from enthousiastic users that are not devs?
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Ge0rG
Guus: because enthusiastic users don't know whether their favorite client is actually good for the general audience.
MattJ
Guus, it depends entirely on the purpose of the list
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Ge0rG
At least less so than the developer.
MattJ
I think you and Ge0rG have different opinions on that
Guus
It's up to us to merge or reject the PR.
Guus
so quality control is up to us. I'd be happy for anyone to offer suggestions for us to put on those lists.
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Zash
Was the purpose of the renewal not to filter out inactive projects.
Ge0rG
Zash: yes
Zash
Pidgin is not an inactive project, even it's not moving very fast.
Ge0rG
Guus: what kind of quality control do you want to apply, that doesn't violate the Holy XSF Neutrality Stance.
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Guus
Ge0rg: a judgement if the entry is appropriate. I've denied stuff before.
Ge0rG
Guus: judgment on which grounds?
Guus
lemme think
Ge0rG
Guus: I agree with you that we want quality clients there. But we need to have some formal grounds for that
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Guus
i think I denied at least two, because they were XMPP-based silos (that did not federate)
Guus
Oh, but then we disagree 🙂
MattJ
FWIW I had multiple conversations with ex-XMPP users who had moved to other platforms because XMPP can't do $feature
Guus
I don't think quality is a requirement.
MattJ
When it turns out they were Pidgin users, and don't even have Carbons
Guus
as that's subjective, at times.
Guus
exactly, lots of people are happy with Pidgin, even fi we're not
MattJ
and this has given me the opinion that Pidgin is harmful to XMPP, as it stands
Guus
so I'wouldn't mind adding it
MattJ
No, these people left XMPP because of Pidgin
Seve/SouL
Maybe gathering a minimum of XEPs implemented?
Ge0rG
Guus: except that pidgin makes your XMPP experience break in unexpected ways if you add another client
Seve/SouL
for IM.
Ge0rG
Seve/SouL: like the Compliance Suite?
MattJ
Pidgin is extremely popular (whether we list it or not)
MattJ
and for a significant number of XMPP users, it *is* XMPP
Ge0rG
Pidgin and Zom on top of Cisco Jabber.
MattJ
XMPP does not support Carbons or MAM if Pidgin does not support Carbons or MAM
Guus
Matt, that's why I think we'd better list it, but with some kind of footnote.
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Ge0rG
we need a traffic light, and pidgin will be red.
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Ge0rG
except colorblind.
Seve/SouL
Ge0rG, I don't know how many active/good clients would the Compliance Suite exclude, but yes.
Something like 'minimum decent experience'.
This way we even could list clients that have these features or more, and 'others' that do not, like Pidgin or whatever.
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Ge0rG
As long as yaxim ends up on the "good" side, and Pidgin on the "bad" one, I don't care :P
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Seve/SouL
Heh
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Guus
Seve, I largely agree. I do think we should prevent the qualification to be very strict or detailed though, as it'll lead to too much discussion
Ge0rG
Seriously though, the list on xmpp.org is intended for people who don't have an XMPP client yet.
Guus
but a simple stoplight type of deal would owrk.
Ge0rG
I can't see any rational reason to tell them about Pidgin, except not to use it.
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Guus
I think that it does add value for many people, even if it does not for you.
Ge0rG whatever makes the gazillion people that use it for XMPP today think of it.
Zash
Maybe have an Subjective Persons Pick of the Week thing before the full list?
Guus
Also: if people see it on that list, and are used to pidgin, but see that there are many better clients (by looking at that traffic light), they might be motivated to explore what better things are out there.
MattJ
Zash, and in 4 weeks we run out of clients ;)
Ge0rG
Guus: ask jonasw what he thinks of it.
Zash
Someone (read: Ge0rG) could review clients and post under a big "NOT THE OFFICIAL BLAH OF THE XSF" banner on the blog
Guus
Ge0rG: I'm not disputing that it's lacking
Ge0rG
Zash: I'd be the Angry VideoGaming Nerd of XMPP clients.
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Maranda
Ge0rG yes but they're normally tracked with the full jid so I need to make another table that contains bare and I didn't want to do for non muc cases I guess I'll have to make a third one just in case
Ge0rG
hi Maranda! Your message came in 4 hours late.
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Maranda
I know i was without data
Maranda
I exhausted credit
Ge0rG
Guus: as long as we don't have a formal mechanism to put clients into "good", "bad" and "ugly" lists, and the appropriate tooling on the web site, I'm strongly against putting pidgin onto the list.
Guus
Ge0rG: my formal mechanism is your gut. 🙂
Ge0rG
Wikipedia has huge tables of XMPP clients, sortable by criteria and listing some "important" aspects.
Maranda
And exhausted it just I was typing said message too
Maranda
😎
Seve/SouL
Listing 'Minimum decent experience' clients and 'others', could even motivate client developers to work on their client.
This way we can add to the list more clients and also specify which ones you should choose first.
If adding clients to the list is what we aim for.
Guus
Ge0rG: i don't want to keep that kind of detailed data on our site. That'll be always out of date, and lead to too much bickering. Just a "good/bad/ugly" qualifier that's based on whatever the XSF member(s) in charge of the list semi-objective thought on the matter is, is good enough for me.
Zash
semi-objective in a semi-official place is weird tho
Guus
Zash: better than the alternative, perhaps
Ge0rG
Guus: so you and jonasw disagree, we'll have an edit war?
Guus
Ge0rG: no, because we're sensible people.
Guus
... at least jonas is.
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Ge0rG
I wish that'd be true for all XSF members.
Guus
I think we can strive to an acceptable compromise on a 1to3 level of things.
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Guus
given the semi-objectes arguments based on compliance levels, I don't think there'll be much discussion between the highest and lowest levels anyways, so compromising should be doable.
Guus
we're not having an edit war now, do we? And we both have the ability to add/remove pidgin today. 🙂
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Zash
Certified Approved by Guus, Ge0rG or jonasw on arbitrary subjective grounds™
Guus
Zash: I'll order that in rubber stamp format.
Zash
I'll order a tiny "Zash approves" rubber stamp to stamp on those stamps.
Ge0rG
I don't think there are any clients that would deserve the "Approved by Ge0rG" stamp.
Guus
instead of the compliance levels, we could have "things that Ge0rG complains about a lot / sometimes / hardly ever."
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Ge0rG
Guus: I like that.
Guus
We would require you to complain to some degree on everything on the list then, though.
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Ge0rG
Someone will have to provide me with the required devices to run the shit to complain about, then.
Zash
Maybe do a community survey on rankings?
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Guus
"shit doesn't run on my device" is a valid complaint.
Guus
oh shit, kids
Guus
need to pick them up
Guus
byes! 🙂
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jonasw
Falling out of Debian's own wrangling with the upcoming EU GPDR
regulation, I thought it might be a good idea to have a cross-
community discussion group to discuss the GDPR and its impact on
free software and free culture projects.
This has now been setup here:
https://www.earth.li/mailman/listinfo/gdpr-discuss
Please feel free to pass the link onto other communities who would
be interested in participating.
Best wishes,
--
,''`.
: :' : Chris Lamb, Debian Project Leader
`. `'` lamby@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
`-