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Maranda
Ge0rG and sorted the GC1 directed presence stuff now it tracks those too (also for carbons)
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Ge0rG
Maranda: what do you do with Carbons differently?
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Maranda
Not much, it checked muc whispers looking into the resource session's "joined mucs" table before but that didnt cover GC1, now it'll fall back to the directed bare I added in that case covering it.
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Maranda
also removed a loop so it's a pro point as we
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Maranda
As well*
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Maranda
Ge0rG and outside mucs there's no use I currently see of directed presences as well so it's safe enough to make an assumption
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Ge0rG
I don't know what the use case for directed presence was...
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Holger
> In general, a client sends directed presence when it wishes to share availability information with an entity that is not subscribed to its presence, typically on a temporary basis. Common uses of directed presence include casual one-to-one chat sessions as described under Section 5.1 and multi-user chat rooms as described in [XEP-0045].
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Holger
And I've seen IoT people doing directed presence for some reason.
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Zash
Jingle maybe
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lovetox
jonasw, Ge0rG: did one of you implement that coloring xep? maybe in a python lib that i now just can use 😃?
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jonasw
lovetox, jclib has the functions
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jonasw
I also have some stuff in C++
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jonasw
lovetox, I wanted to make it a standalone lib but never gotten around to do it
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Ge0rG
externalize everything! `pip install left-align`
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jonasw
Ge0rG, this is python, not node.js
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lovetox
ok nice thanks i will look into it
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Ge0rG
jonasw: or is it?
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jonasw
lovetox, jclib doesn’t have a license file, but it’s going to be GPLv3+ or LGPLv3+. you can extract and use the coloring stuff under MIT, Apache 2.0 or 3-clause BSD, whatever pleases you.
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jonasw
no guarantee that it’s 100% the XEP as it stands right now, I might’ve some experiment in there
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jonasw
double-check the constants
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lovetox
people can say about python what they want, but so many people using it and because of it so many libs and code exists is such a huge plus that language architecture details dont really matter
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lovetox
yes thanks
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jonasw
ah yes, it’s not what’s in the XEP atm.
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lovetox
jonasw, doesnt really matter for me now
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Ge0rG
jonasw: have a different branch :P
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lovetox
i just need something that colors my nicks
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jonasw
yeah, the difference is minor
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lovetox
ah i really have to try now to run a minimal gtk application with aioxmpp
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lovetox
i wanted to do this for a long time
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jonasw
I had a basic demo somewhere, but it might’ve been lost
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lovetox
if it works with gtk, i definitly plan to try and port gajim to it
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Ge0rG
Yeah, finally consistent colors!
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jonasw
neeaaat
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Ge0rG
I totally love it.
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jonasw
lovetox, you might wanna look into jclib instead/in addition
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Ge0rG
But maybe I'm an OCD nerd.
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jonasw
Ge0rG, :)
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jonasw
it’s a bit more high-level than aioxmpp. it’s essentially the non-GUI part of jabbercat
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lovetox
to be honest i just need the low level socket stuff
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Ge0rG
It's great that there are four different XMPP libraries for python
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jonasw
Ge0rG, if lovetox pulls the port off, it’s down to three...
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Ge0rG
We should rename XMPP to NIHP
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lovetox
gajim uses nbxmpp only for connection and roster
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lovetox
every other xep is in gajim code implemented
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Kev
So, five then? :)
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lovetox
😃
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Ge0rG
Yeah.
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jonasw
lovetox, ah okay, then it’s like, just use aioxmpp.Client
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lovetox
no joke, people asked on the list that gajim should be able to run without gui
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Kev
At least there's only one Qt/C++ client :)
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lovetox
and send events via dbus
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lovetox
so they can use it to write gui around it
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lovetox
😃
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Ge0rG
Kev: because no sane people use C++ today :P
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Ge0rG
D-Bus.
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Kev
Ge0rG: Also, I think there's five, or something.
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jonasw
lovetox, I thought about that model actually, but I found that it will rarely be sufficient.
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Ge0rG
Isn't D-Bus similar to XMPP, conceptually?
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Ge0rG
Wasn't there some discussion of that failed idea in the context of telepathy?
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jonasw
Ge0rG, pep., winfried, in case you missed it: https://www.earth.li/mailman/listinfo/gdpr-discuss
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Ge0rG
Where the maintainer complained in public how it was a horrible idea to have a local generic abstraction of IM services
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pep.
Ge0rG, yeah I pasted that here a while back if you want to look at your logs
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pep.
jonasw, saw it! thanks. Not sure if we should start something there already?
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pep.
Maybe just drop a word that we're having a look at it in public
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jonasw
stpeter already sent two mails there
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pep.
Ah ok
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jonasw
yeah I thought about that too
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jonasw
stpeters mail was not directly related to our discussions though
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pep.
Ge0rG, https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2017-September/msg00047.html
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Anu
I always felt many architectural decisions like this were influenced by x. Back in the day everything was slow when rendering remotely so no one would notice
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Ge0rG
pep.: great, thanks
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jonasw
You lose a huge amount by not being able to have your protocol code in the same process as the UI, unless you write an API which basically _is_ your protocol, or an API which is the UI, but the bigger the gap between the two, the more developers fall into that pit and don't get any UI or protocol work done. :)
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jonasw
this is so true
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jonasw
whenever I thought about whether it’s somehow reasonable to separate jabbercat in multiple processes (for whatever gain, I had various insane ideas), I ended up with excatly that: my IPC protocol would’ve been essentially XMPP•
-
Zash
This was what Jabber was originally designed for after all :)
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: I've experienced that the hard way with yaxim as well. The foundation was written by two CS students who overengineered everything.
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Anu
Yup, this was how Monal on Mac developed too. There was a minor justification 10 years ago because I also had Oscar but it just started replicating stuff
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Anu
I think convemourally ui logic should be separate makes sense
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Ge0rG
Nine years later, I finally added a shortcut from the UI through the service, data provider into the XMPP implementation
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jonasw
if anything, jabbercat will ship/be able to directly interface with a local biboumi at some point.
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Ge0rG
via XMPP or via C++ API calls?
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Anu
Dbus sounds like mvc taken to a logical extreme :) . Just ditch the view
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Ge0rG
Just do everything ith XMPP Data Forms.
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jonasw
Ge0rG, XMPP
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jonasw
Ge0rG, when I have a massive surplus of energy next, I want to implement the server-side of the Component protocol in aioxmpp for an experiment.
-
lovetox
I wonder what happend to Link Mauve server jingle component
-
lovetox
btw Link Mauve seems absent for a while now
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moparisthebest
jonasw, is it going to be useable from other clients or only locally?
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jonasw
moparisthebest, locally
-
jonasw
obviously
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jonasw
we don’t have a way to host components in clients.
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moparisthebest
not if you used my amazing echo-self :P
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jonasw
that’s a crude hack which I won’t support.
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moparisthebest
yes, because breaking carbons/mam is superior
-
moparisthebest
...
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Ge0rG
jonasw: you might want to make a separate lib sor server things
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, it’s not meant to be a server thing
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jonasw
it’s meant to be a shim wrapper to make use of components locally. I don’t even know if that’ll work.
-
jonasw
I don’t intend to get into server business.
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pep.
lovetox: he's busy with the strikes in France :p
-
pep.
goffi also has a jingle component implementation btw
-
Ge0rG
winfried: I just realized that http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org redirects to your homepage. I'd really love that page to re-appear again, is that feasible?
-
Maranda
😁
-
Maranda
We shall make an e2ee sticker with it
-
Ge0rG
I was linking to the archive.org cache, but it's down today.
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winfried
Ge0rG: maybe in a bit different form: I don't want to go through the hassle of maintaining a WordPress site for just two static pages again....
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moparisthebest
winfried, wget the page from archive.org, put it at that path?
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MattJ
It's just text, any simple HTML page would suffice
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moparisthebest
while we are on the subject, Ge0rG always links it as some type of argument against e2e, can anyone explain that to me?
-
moparisthebest
the only argument I can glean from it is something like "e2e doesn't protect against everything, so why bother" which is dumb
-
moparisthebest
or "sometimes software has bugs, so why bother" in which case why are we here
-
SamWhited
heh, I'd forgotten about that; I didn't realize that was your site winfried, well done
-
Ge0rG
Yeah, kudos for it
-
moparisthebest
so what am I missing? any takers on explaining it to me? :)
-
winfried
moparisthebest: working on restoring it ;-)
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moparisthebest
winfried, well I've read them both from https://web.archive.org/web/20110501005631/http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org/ but I still must be missing the point
-
winfried
moparisthebest I would like grasp where you are missing the point
-
moparisthebest
winfried, I'm only seeing 2 possible arguments either "e2e doesn't protect against everything, so why bother" or "sometimes software has bugs, so why bother"
-
winfried
The point I had in mind while setting it up is: we are suggesting a sense of security by the way we talk about technology, but we can't guarantee that
-
Maranda
Which is not hard at all to understand..
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moparisthebest
well I completely understand and agree with that
-
winfried
I never wanted to imply 'why bother' btw, just be very careful
-
moparisthebest
the only way I've seen people *use* the site before is in the context of "e2e is a complete waste, don't bother, see http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org/"
-
moparisthebest
which is what I was disagreeing with
-
winfried
and e2e: I still want to write a nasty rant against e2e :-D
-
Zash
Hmmmm what?
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winfried
thealiceandbobsuicide.org can be used against e2e, as much as against any security technology that is presented as THE solution for every problem
-
moparisthebest
right, I just think it needs to be clear what a particular technology does/protects against, and what it does not
-
winfried
moparisthebest: yes, and we need to aware of issues created by the platform, (human) circumstances etc. I have literally spend days on fairs where companies were selling boxes that were welded shut with the promise that if you put them in your network, your network is save. Right...
-
winfried
https://www.tilanus.com/#weblog_pantsdown
-
moparisthebest
winfried, yea that's just the misconception that closed/black box means secure, when the opposite is true
-
moparisthebest
I saw one not too long ago, promised secure email, ended up being a raspberry pi glued inside a fancy case with numerous security flaws, can't find it now...
-
winfried
a Dutch company sold pgp-phones. All secret keys were generated and stored on a server in Canada. All the police had to do, was to seize that server and they could catch tens of heavy criminals
-
moparisthebest
ha I found it winfried https://www.nomx.com/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/punching-holes-in-nomx-the-worlds-most-secure-communications-protocol/
-
winfried
moparisthebest: yeah, great story too!
-
Ge0rG
Like the story of the NSA compromising Gemalto to obtain the secret keys of all SIM cards.
-
moparisthebest
and this is why, pre-2013 people could go "this is make believe, you are protecting against a non-existant threat"
-
moparisthebest
then 2013 happened and there is proof it's a thing that happens daily
-
Maranda
funny, this code was so stupidly broken yet it *worked*
- Maranda is in one of those "gawd" moments.
-
Maranda
(... and obviously fixing something else broken it.)✎ -
Maranda
(... and obviously fixing something else borked it.) ✏
-
edhelas
PHP 5.4, wow