XSF Discussion - 2018-04-13

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07:40:00 Maranda Ge0rG and sorted the GC1 directed presence stuff now it tracks those too (also for carbons)
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07:46:35 Ge0rG Maranda: what do you do with Carbons differently?
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07:51:02 Maranda Not much, it checked muc whispers looking into the resource session's "joined mucs" table before but that didnt cover GC1, now it'll fall back to the directed bare I added in that case covering it.
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07:52:02 Maranda also removed a loop so it's a pro point as we
07:52:10 Maranda As well*
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08:01:00 Maranda Ge0rG and outside mucs there's no use I currently see of directed presences as well so it's safe enough to make an assumption
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10:34:24 Ge0rG I don't know what the use case for directed presence was...
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10:47:39 Holger > In general, a client sends directed presence when it wishes to share availability information with an entity that is not subscribed to its presence, typically on a temporary basis. Common uses of directed presence include casual one-to-one chat sessions as described under Section 5.1 and multi-user chat rooms as described in [XEP-0045].
10:48:35 Holger And I've seen IoT people doing directed presence for some reason.
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10:54:03 Zash Jingle maybe
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11:53:18 lovetox jonasw, Ge0rG: did one of you implement that coloring xep? maybe in a python lib that i now just can use 😃?
11:54:20 jonasw lovetox, jclib has the functions
11:54:34 jonasw I also have some stuff in C++
11:55:02 jonasw lovetox, I wanted to make it a standalone lib but never gotten around to do it
11:55:21 Ge0rG externalize everything! `pip install left-align`
11:55:35 jonasw Ge0rG, this is python, not node.js
11:55:47 lovetox ok nice thanks i will look into it
11:56:18 Ge0rG jonasw: or is it?
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11:56:48 jonasw lovetox, jclib doesn’t have a license file, but it’s going to be GPLv3+ or LGPLv3+. you can extract and use the coloring stuff under MIT, Apache 2.0 or 3-clause BSD, whatever pleases you.
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11:57:06 jonasw no guarantee that it’s 100% the XEP as it stands right now, I might’ve some experiment in there
11:57:10 jonasw double-check the constants
11:57:24 lovetox people can say about python what they want, but so many people using it and because of it so many libs and code exists is such a huge plus that language architecture details dont really matter
11:57:44 lovetox yes thanks
11:58:16 jonasw ah yes, it’s not what’s in the XEP atm.
11:58:27 lovetox jonasw, doesnt really matter for me now
11:58:31 Ge0rG jonasw: have a different branch :P
11:58:34 lovetox i just need something that colors my nicks
11:58:42 jonasw yeah, the difference is minor
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12:00:52 lovetox ah i really have to try now to run a minimal gtk application with aioxmpp
12:00:59 lovetox i wanted to do this for a long time
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12:03:09 jonasw I had a basic demo somewhere, but it might’ve been lost
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12:04:58 lovetox if it works with gtk, i definitly plan to try and port gajim to it
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12:05:20 Ge0rG Yeah, finally consistent colors!
12:05:21 jonasw neeaaat
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12:05:35 Ge0rG I totally love it.
12:05:35 jonasw lovetox, you might wanna look into jclib instead/in addition
12:05:41 Ge0rG But maybe I'm an OCD nerd.
12:05:45 jonasw Ge0rG, :)
12:06:30 jonasw it’s a bit more high-level than aioxmpp. it’s essentially the non-GUI part of jabbercat
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12:10:39 lovetox to be honest i just need the low level socket stuff
12:11:09 Ge0rG It's great that there are four different XMPP libraries for python
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12:11:30 jonasw Ge0rG, if lovetox pulls the port off, it’s down to three...
12:11:31 Ge0rG We should rename XMPP to NIHP
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12:12:07 lovetox gajim uses nbxmpp only for connection and roster
12:12:14 lovetox every other xep is in gajim code implemented
12:12:22 Kev So, five then? :)
12:12:29 lovetox 😃
12:12:29 Ge0rG Yeah.
12:12:32 jonasw lovetox, ah okay, then it’s like, just use aioxmpp.Client
12:12:45 lovetox no joke, people asked on the list that gajim should be able to run without gui
12:12:46 Kev At least there's only one Qt/C++ client :)
12:12:51 lovetox and send events via dbus
12:12:56 lovetox so they can use it to write gui around it
12:12:57 lovetox 😃
12:13:02 Ge0rG Kev: because no sane people use C++ today :P
12:13:11 Ge0rG D-Bus.
12:13:15 Kev Ge0rG: Also, I think there's five, or something.
12:13:20 jonasw lovetox, I thought about that model actually, but I found that it will rarely be sufficient.
12:13:27 Ge0rG Isn't D-Bus similar to XMPP, conceptually?
12:13:56 Ge0rG Wasn't there some discussion of that failed idea in the context of telepathy?
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12:14:36 jonasw Ge0rG, pep., winfried, in case you missed it: https://www.earth.li/mailman/listinfo/gdpr-discuss
12:15:03 Ge0rG Where the maintainer complained in public how it was a horrible idea to have a local generic abstraction of IM services
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12:25:04 pep. Ge0rG, yeah I pasted that here a while back if you want to look at your logs
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12:25:37 pep. jonasw, saw it! thanks. Not sure if we should start something there already?
12:25:50 pep. Maybe just drop a word that we're having a look at it in public
12:25:52 jonasw stpeter already sent two mails there
12:25:57 pep. Ah ok
12:25:59 jonasw yeah I thought about that too
12:26:06 jonasw stpeters mail was not directly related to our discussions though
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12:28:41 pep. Ge0rG, https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2017-September/msg00047.html
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12:33:11 Anu I always felt many architectural decisions like this were influenced by x. Back in the day everything was slow when rendering remotely so no one would notice
12:33:37 Ge0rG pep.: great, thanks
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12:34:51 jonasw You lose a huge amount by not being able to have your protocol code in the same process as the UI, unless you write an API which basically _is_ your protocol, or an API which is the UI, but the bigger the gap between the two, the more developers fall into that pit and don't get any UI or protocol work done. :)
12:34:59 jonasw this is so true
12:35:32 jonasw whenever I thought about whether it’s somehow reasonable to separate jabbercat in multiple processes (for whatever gain, I had various insane ideas), I ended up with excatly that: my IPC protocol would’ve been essentially XMPP•
12:36:16 Zash This was what Jabber was originally designed for after all :)
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12:37:13 Ge0rG jonasw: I've experienced that the hard way with yaxim as well. The foundation was written by two CS students who overengineered everything.
12:37:15 Anu Yup, this was how Monal on Mac developed too. There was a minor justification 10 years ago because I also had Oscar but it just started replicating stuff
12:37:40 Anu I think convemourally ui logic should be separate makes sense
12:38:01 Ge0rG Nine years later, I finally added a shortcut from the UI through the service, data provider into the XMPP implementation
12:38:52 jonasw if anything, jabbercat will ship/be able to directly interface with a local biboumi at some point.
12:39:32 Ge0rG via XMPP or via C++ API calls?
12:39:43 Anu Dbus sounds like mvc taken to a logical extreme :) . Just ditch the view
12:39:59 Ge0rG Just do everything ith XMPP Data Forms.
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12:41:35 jonasw Ge0rG, XMPP
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12:42:16 jonasw Ge0rG, when I have a massive surplus of energy next, I want to implement the server-side of the Component protocol in aioxmpp for an experiment.
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12:43:48 lovetox I wonder what happend to Link Mauve server jingle component
12:44:27 lovetox btw Link Mauve seems absent for a while now
12:44:38 moparisthebest jonasw, is it going to be useable from other clients or only locally?
12:44:50 jonasw moparisthebest, locally
12:44:52 jonasw obviously
12:44:58 jonasw we don’t have a way to host components in clients.
12:45:02 moparisthebest not if you used my amazing echo-self :P
12:45:10 jonasw that’s a crude hack which I won’t support.
12:45:27 moparisthebest yes, because breaking carbons/mam is superior
12:45:33 moparisthebest ...
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12:46:22 Ge0rG jonasw: you might want to make a separate lib sor server things
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12:47:17 jonasw Ge0rG, it’s not meant to be a server thing
12:47:31 jonasw it’s meant to be a shim wrapper to make use of components locally. I don’t even know if that’ll work.
12:47:35 jonasw I don’t intend to get into server business.
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13:10:30 pep. lovetox: he's busy with the strikes in France :p
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13:11:20 pep. goffi also has a jingle component implementation btw
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16:03:46 Ge0rG winfried: I just realized that http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org redirects to your homepage. I'd really love that page to re-appear again, is that feasible?
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16:04:19 Maranda 😁
16:04:40 Maranda We shall make an e2ee sticker with it
16:04:52 Ge0rG I was linking to the archive.org cache, but it's down today.
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16:35:09 winfried Ge0rG: maybe in a bit different form: I don't want to go through the hassle of maintaining a WordPress site for just two static pages again....
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16:36:41 moparisthebest winfried, wget the page from archive.org, put it at that path?
16:38:29 MattJ It's just text, any simple HTML page would suffice
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16:40:37 moparisthebest while we are on the subject, Ge0rG always links it as some type of argument against e2e, can anyone explain that to me?
16:41:15 moparisthebest the only argument I can glean from it is something like "e2e doesn't protect against everything, so why bother" which is dumb
16:41:31 moparisthebest or "sometimes software has bugs, so why bother" in which case why are we here
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16:44:34 SamWhited heh, I'd forgotten about that; I didn't realize that was your site winfried, well done
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16:53:31 Ge0rG Yeah, kudos for it
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16:54:08 moparisthebest so what am I missing? any takers on explaining it to me? :)
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17:14:58 winfried moparisthebest: working on restoring it ;-)
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17:19:33 moparisthebest winfried, well I've read them both from https://web.archive.org/web/20110501005631/http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org/ but I still must be missing the point
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17:27:31 winfried moparisthebest I would like grasp where you are missing the point
17:28:17 moparisthebest winfried, I'm only seeing 2 possible arguments either "e2e doesn't protect against everything, so why bother" or "sometimes software has bugs, so why bother"
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17:31:35 winfried The point I had in mind while setting it up is: we are suggesting a sense of security by the way we talk about technology, but we can't guarantee that
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17:32:37 Maranda Which is not hard at all to understand..
17:32:49 moparisthebest well I completely understand and agree with that
17:33:03 winfried I never wanted to imply 'why bother' btw, just be very careful
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17:33:35 moparisthebest the only way I've seen people *use* the site before is in the context of "e2e is a complete waste, don't bother, see http://thealiceandbobsuicide.org/"
17:33:42 moparisthebest which is what I was disagreeing with
17:34:12 winfried and e2e: I still want to write a nasty rant against e2e :-D
17:35:33 Zash Hmmmm what?
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17:37:03 winfried thealiceandbobsuicide.org can be used against e2e, as much as against any security technology that is presented as THE solution for every problem
17:37:41 moparisthebest right, I just think it needs to be clear what a particular technology does/protects against, and what it does not
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17:48:18 winfried moparisthebest: yes, and we need to aware of issues created by the platform, (human) circumstances etc. I have literally spend days on fairs where companies were selling boxes that were welded shut with the promise that if you put them in your network, your network is save. Right...
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17:49:34 winfried https://www.tilanus.com/#weblog_pantsdown
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17:51:47 moparisthebest winfried, yea that's just the misconception that closed/black box means secure, when the opposite is true
17:52:13 moparisthebest I saw one not too long ago, promised secure email, ended up being a raspberry pi glued inside a fancy case with numerous security flaws, can't find it now...
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17:54:17 winfried a Dutch company sold pgp-phones. All secret keys were generated and stored on a server in Canada. All the police had to do, was to seize that server and they could catch tens of heavy criminals
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17:57:58 moparisthebest ha I found it winfried https://www.nomx.com/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/punching-holes-in-nomx-the-worlds-most-secure-communications-protocol/
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18:06:59 winfried moparisthebest: yeah, great story too!
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18:49:55 Ge0rG Like the story of the NSA compromising Gemalto to obtain the secret keys of all SIM cards.
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18:58:14 moparisthebest and this is why, pre-2013 people could go "this is make believe, you are protecting against a non-existant threat"
18:58:47 moparisthebest then 2013 happened and there is proof it's a thing that happens daily
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20:05:40 Maranda funny, this code was so stupidly broken yet it *worked*
20:06:19 Maranda is in one of those "gawd" moments.
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20:07:38 Maranda (... and obviously fixing something else broken it.)
20:07:53 Maranda (... and obviously fixing something else borked it.)
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20:11:20 edhelas PHP 5.4, wow
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