XSF Discussion - 2018-04-17

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  194. jonasw Maranda, I don’t think so
  195. jonasw it also isn’t that much work to support both
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  258. Maranda jonasw, Gajim uses it at least
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  376. pep. gdpr meeting in about in hour?
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  380. Ge0rG yeah
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  429. winfried GDPR meeting in 3 minutes
  430. jonasw .
  431. jonasw 🐈
  432. pep. Almost there!
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  434. Ge0rG Uh-oh.
  435. pep. ! I'm here
  436. winfried so am I ;-)
  437. jonasw me 2
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  440. jonasw hands the gavel to winfried
  441. winfried bangs the gavel
  442. winfried I propose we take a look at LQ1 and subsequently continue filling the Wiki (though I have a little point we may have been forgetting)
  443. jonasw okay
  444. jonasw we aren’t lawyers, so how we’re supposed to deal with LQ1?
  445. winfried I must say, I haven't had time to update the wiki, don't know how up to date it is.
  446. pep. Sorry for the minutes last week, it's been a fun week
  447. pep. Maybe we want to start drafting a template data policy at some point?
  448. winfried pep.: I know the feeling... have double appointments on all days of this week
  449. winfried pep.: yes, I think so, but we first have to see what choices we can/have to make...
  450. Ge0rG I've had a chat with our GDPR expert, and he said that message content is similar to picture uploads. As long as we treat it as an opaque blob and don't analyze it, art9 doesn't apply. He is going to send me a reference to an according legal analysis some time today
  451. jonasw uh
  452. pep. nice
  453. jonasw that is amazing news.
  454. winfried Ge0rG: great
  455. jonasw --- except for your mod_firewall.
  456. pep. yes
  457. pep. I was thinking about that
  458. jonasw (which makes me wonder about bayes filters at big mail corps, but that’s another topic)
  459. winfried One reaction I got on LQ1 is art. 9.2e
  460. winfried but that one is without references
  461. Ge0rG From http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/recital-51-GDPR.htm > The processing of photographs should not systematically be considered to be processing of special categories of personal data as they are covered by the definition of biometric data only when processed through a specific technical means allowing the unique identification or authentication of a natural person.
  462. winfried I propose to treat (for now) LQ1 as: "not subject to 9.1"
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  464. jonasw winfried, makes sense to me.
  465. Ge0rG winfried: 👍
  466. pep. mod_firewall is not making any derivative data from what it "analyses", and there's not way for us to know what triggered it right? I mean except it you log it
  467. jonasw with a huge "UNLESS you analyze the text in any way"
  468. Ge0rG jonasw: in a way that is allowed to extract art9 data
  469. Ge0rG jonasw: in a way that allows to extract art9 data
  470. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  471. jonasw Ge0rG, did you ask your GDPR expert about the fact that MAM archives are unencrypted and thus operators may access (advertendl@ or inadvertendly) message content which contains art 9 data?
  472. Ge0rG my mod_firewall isn't deriving information about sexual / religious beliefs, merely about mass-messages.
  473. jonasw Ge0rG, did you ask your GDPR expert about the fact that MAM archives are unencrypted and thus operators may access (advertendly or inadvertendly) message content which contains art 9 data?
  474. jonasw that was raised by Peter on list I think.
  475. Ge0rG jonasw: still pending.
  476. jonasw so you did ask, but not have a reply yet?
  477. winfried jonasw: does MAM have a consent mechanism? What is its default?
  478. Ge0rG jonasw: didn't have much time with him
  479. jonasw winfried, it is normally opt-in, except on Prosody ;-).
  480. pep. winfried, I don't think it has at all atm
  481. Ge0rG jonasw: we fixed that
  482. pep. jonasw, opt-in although most clients do it when available?
  483. jonasw winfried, it is normally opt-in (except on Prosody in the past ;-)).
  484. Ge0rG winfried: there is no GDPR data consent dialog when you enable MAM. Servers and clients will auto-enable it on first use, typically
  485. jonasw pep., yes, although that’s a problem of the client then.
  486. pep. yeah..
  487. Ge0rG so it's rather opt-out
  488. jonasw not conceptually, and not on the server side.
  489. marmistrz has joined
  490. pep. Ge0rG, you fixed that in what version of prosody, and when is it going to be deployed :P
  491. Zash Opt-in by server operator
  492. winfried This may be a point for an implementation guide.... or so
  493. jonasw winfried, indeed, it should be mentioned in the MAM XEP.
  494. jonasw pep., can you add that to the technical TODO?
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  496. pep. that?
  497. Ge0rG winfried: except that users don't like consent dialogs ;)
  498. pep. Ah, MAM
  499. jonasw pep., "Add a note to the MAM XEP about GDPR consent requirements."
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  501. Zash And clients don't expose the settings
  502. Ge0rG > pep., "Add a note to the MAM XEP about GDPR consent requirements." 👍
  503. pep. Ge0rG, well.. they'll have no choice, everybody will want to cover their asses now
  504. jonasw Ge0rG, that message did not follow my reactions draft format!
  505. jonasw I know because JabberCat didn’t show it properly ;P
  506. Ge0rG Zash: and the XEP doesn't provide a way to differentiate between "explicitly set" and "enabled by default"
  507. Ge0rG jonasw: you mean my quote-with-yaxim format that you shamelessly copied?
  508. winfried jonasw: fix JabberCat :-P
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  511. jonasw ahm. let’s continue with on-topic *whistles*
  512. Ge0rG yes please.
  513. jonasw Ge0rG 2018-04-17T10:46:55.668869: > yes please. 🤦🏿‍♀️
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  515. jonasw derp.
  516. Ge0rG jonasw: `2018-04-17T10:46:55.668869`, seriously?
  517. jonasw okay, so LQ1 resolves to "Not 9.1, unless you extract 9.1-ish data from it somehow"
  518. jonasw looks at the wiki to find gaps to fill.
  519. winfried I was wondering if file transfer needs a special status in the processings XMPP does...
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  521. Ge0rG winfried: I don't think so. it's a direct client-to-client transmission, and the server only sees metadata
  522. Ge0rG Were we done with Q1.1d S2S?
  523. pep. Ge0rG, unless BoB?
  524. jonasw Ge0rG, uhm. In-Band Bytestreams, BoB, HTTP Upload
  525. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure we have all of that covered by "user content"
  526. jonasw so unless you happen to do TURN-less jingle (rather rare), I don’t see how that’s client-to-client.
  527. jonasw possibly
  528. Ge0rG * typical: with account, MAM/files for a given amount of time
  529. pep. yeah
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  531. winfried Ge0rG: adding that covers it all?
  532. Ge0rG winfried: it's in the wiki already
  533. winfried ah, switching back and forth on a small screen right now... (sitting in the middle of THE care ICT trade in NL right now)
  534. winfried Q1.1d s2s
  535. pep. hmm, there's a bit on 1.1d in the wiki, but that's not last week's
  536. winfried they are notes from earlier meetings
  537. pep. Also I propose we skip 1.1e, as I don't feel confident going into even more speculation
  538. pep. IANAL
  539. winfried looking at Q1.1d, I realized there are two things to cover
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  541. winfried the transfer of the data itself
  542. winfried and the processing of the data on the other server
  543. winfried both need a legal ground
  544. Ge0rG winfried: I'd argue legitimate interest of the user to get messages delivered, for both points.
  545. Ge0rG winfried: that also implies that the other data processor may not apply processing to the data that goes beyond what's needed for that legitimate interest
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  548. winfried Ge0rG: what article do you mean by legitimate interest?
  549. Ge0rG winfried: 6(1)b
  550. winfried Ge0rG: yes agree
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  553. winfried and agree to the limitation you mention
  554. pep. But we can't assume that can we
  555. Ge0rG For Q1.1e we should probably write down all these things into a data processing policy
  556. winfried Ge0rG: exactly, this something we should cover in Q1.1e
  557. winfried pep.: in some way we need to 'safeguard' we can assume this
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  564. pep. There might be server admins that will want to assume the worst and ask consent for most things
  565. Ge0rG pep.: for third-country servers, Art. 49(1)b should apply in the same way as 6(1)b for intra-EU
  566. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  567. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure we can say that the user has a contract with the server operator, and that sending data to another user on another server is part of the contract
  568. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  569. winfried Do we have Q1.1d covered like this?
  570. Ge0rG winfried: is incoming s2s different from outgoing s2s? What about spam protection?
  571. winfried That are two questions
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  573. winfried lets brainstorm on the first one first
  574. winfried outgoing: the originating server operator is responsible for the transfer
  575. Ge0rG Are there any restrictions on data imported from third countries?
  576. winfried Ge0rG: no, because the EU has the best data protection laws :-D
  577. pep. yet
  578. winfried so outgoing the operator wants to know the incoming server stays to the 'legitimate interest'
  579. Ge0rG But there is COPA!
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  581. Ge0rG winfried: I don't think we can enforce any kind of remote server processing restrictions at the protocol / logical level.
  582. Ge0rG winfried: it might be sane to assume all data sent over s2s as "third country"
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  586. winfried incoming: though you may have a different contract with your own users (e.g. we publish everything) you *have* to assume incoming limits to legitimate interest
  587. jonasw so no storage in MAM?
  588. winfried Ge0rG: no, that is something that needs to be legally enforced
  589. Ge0rG winfried: MAM is covered by legitimate interest of the receiver, I'd say
  590. jonasw even MAM forever?
  591. Ge0rG jonasw: how is MAM forever different from the receiver putting logs of the chat up into the cloud?
  592. jonasw it may not be
  593. Ge0rG jonasw: MAM is controlled by the user(s client)
  594. Ge0rG so from a legal PoV, the receiving user is responsible for MAM.
  595. jonasw and that’s what I’ve been saying a few weeks ago but I got shot down here :)
  596. Ge0rG jonasw: but not by me, as I do agree with that interpretation
  597. jonasw not sure, maybe I was simply unclear.
  598. winfried checks his guns if he accidently shot jonasw - oops, gun logs are purged
  599. Ge0rG so incoming s2s user data: might get stored in receiver's MAM
  600. Ge0rG also in offline storage, but I'd argue this is still part of the sender's legitimate interest
  601. winfried I am still chewing on: » [13:11:05] <jonasw> even MAM forever?
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  603. Ge0rG winfried: what's your issue with that?
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  605. winfried it is disproportionate in any way, but who's responsibility is it?
  606. winfried It is upon request of the user (hopefully)
  607. jonasw if it’s upon the request of the User, I’d argue that for the Purpose of storing the messages on the server, the User is the Controller and the Server (Operator) is merely the Processor.
  608. Ge0rG In theory, MAM should require consent from the user.
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  610. jonasw and thus it’s the users responsibility
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  612. Ge0rG jonasw: that means the user needs to have full control over the data processing, including a way to purge the data.
  613. pep. As long as there is consent I don't think it's disproprotionate. Now, that means we also need to provide means to alter this history?
  614. Ge0rG pep.: consent from the receiving user?
  615. winfried user can't be the controller (in the legal sense) but a controller may process when the user wants him too
  616. pep. Ge0rG, or just prune parts
  617. jonasw Ge0rG, we need that for MAM anyways, I think?
  618. pep. Ge0rG, yes receiving
  619. jonasw tombstoning is at least provisioned. purging everything *up to a date* is possible, too.
  620. winfried yes
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  623. Ge0rG jonasw: will MAM auto-purge if you disable it?
  624. jonasw Ge0rG, I sure hope so :)
  625. pep. I find tombstones useless, as it will only be for this particular user, the rest don't have to respect that, but well. purging has different use-cases
  626. jonasw has left
  627. winfried Ge0rG: that should be added to the MAM-XEP too...
  628. Ge0rG winfried: I tend to agree.
  629. pep. Is there a way to disable even
  630. pep. Also MAM MUC is separate right?
  631. Ge0rG pep.: yes
  632. Ge0rG and yes
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  634. winfried On a MAM MUC: policy of publishing logs should be published
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  636. pep. winfried, publishing as in http-like?
  637. pep. Or just providing MAM for other participants
  638. winfried pep.: yes
  639. Ge0rG winfried: MUC MAM should mimic MUC access.
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  641. winfried like: XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  642. Ge0rG not sure if more hints are needed there.
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  644. pep. Yeah I agree with Ge0rG on that
  645. pep. should we plan for next?
  646. Ge0rG yes please.
  647. winfried I would argue that it is not obvious that the logs are published and it is not necessary for 6.1b
  648. Ge0rG winfried: I think that like with MAM, this is a client UX todo
  649. Ge0rG so should be a tech todo for us
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  652. pep. Ge0rG, hmm, publishing logs publicly (or even with some kind of auth) is server policy
  653. Ge0rG also please put the "spam handling" question on our TODO for next
  654. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  655. pep. (some kind of auth, not over xmpp**)
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  658. pep. So, next?
  659. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#enter-logging
  660. Ge0rG > If the user is entering a room in which the discussions are logged to a public archive (often accessible via HTTP), the service SHOULD allow the user to enter the room but MUST also warn the user that the discussions are logged.
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  662. winfried (Yes, I can live with a tech todo on announcing log publication)
  663. jonasw winfried, MUC MAM access should be clearly defined (tech TODO), and there’s a presence status code for public logging (some clients already show that)
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  666. pep. Ge0rG, yes, so that's handled already which is good, but it is a concern
  667. winfried Spam handling for next meeting
  668. pep. I can't do +1, can do +2 and more
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  671. Ge0rG I can't do this time Wed or Thu.
  672. winfried this week is not possible for me... or it should be friday on 16:00 CEST
  673. Ge0rG +1 for Fri 1600CEST
  674. pep. Fine by me
  675. winfried jonasw: Friday 16:00 CEST?
  676. pep. The spam handling question is in relation to 9.1 right? or not just?
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  678. winfried pep.: yes, we may enter the realms of 9.1 there, but we may also run into some different issues, like automated decision making
  679. winfried (to add more fun to it....)
  680. pep. Does that fall under anything? it's "analysing" right?
  681. pep. I mean worst that can happen to that is 9.1 right?
  682. jonasw winfried, hm, that’s tricky for me
  683. jonasw but I can arrange that once
  684. winfried jonasw: If possible, that would be great
  685. jonasw okay
  686. Ge0rG pep.: the question is probably whether we can do spam detection without going outside of 6.1
  687. jonasw will do
  688. pep. Ge0rG, yeah
  689. winfried jonasw: thanks
  690. pep. We should also try to see where we are with the goals at some point, regarding the "deadline"
  691. pep. Fri 1600CEST it is then
  692. pep. *bang*
  693. winfried I think we are chewing away slowly
  694. winfried but doing a great job, bit by bit things are getting clear
  695. winfried and I think we are closer then we expect!
  696. pep. I should try to come up with some requirements for the EULA XEP
  697. winfried keep up the job!
  698. pep. I have no idea what to use protocol-wise, but we can do that later
  699. winfried pep.: yes, think we are about at that point, Q1.1e
  700. Ge0rG pep.: I thik we should first create the general EULA/ToS structure, then see which parts of it need encoding
  701. winfried bangs the gavel once again, good work guys!
  702. Ge0rG There is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P3P
  703. pep. nice
  704. pep. I wonder why that is "obsolete"
  705. winfried yes, it is, but probably an overshoot for our purposes
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  708. pep. "[..] P3P has not been implemented widely due to the difficulty and lack of value."
  709. winfried it is hard to uniquely encode legal stuf to computer code
  710. pep. Lack of value as in, every website has a privacy policy?
  711. pep. right
  712. winfried no pressing legal needs, not high enough fines ;-)
  713. winfried the GDPR may resurrect it...
  714. pep. nah I think everybody's got their own framework nowadays
  715. pep. At least the big ones
  716. winfried pep.: it tries to solve an esoteric problem that most people neatly try to ignore
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  719. winfried even in the medical world (where legal status is a big issue), everybody loves to ignore the problems that come along with it
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  721. winfried or to state it differently: if you can communicate about a problem, you also need to solve it...
  722. Ge0rG Ah, my coworker sent me some info re 9.1: profile photos of employees are not article9 related data as long as they are not analyzed
  723. pep. What does analyze mean here?
  724. pep. If they're displayed internally that's ..?
  725. pep. That requires consent I assume
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  727. winfried pep.: categorized to categories like: 'gender, color of skin, skin-disorders, gaydar result' etc
  728. winfried displaying needs consent
  729. winfried have to go now, see you on friday
  730. pep. see you
  731. UsL gaydar haha
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  734. UsL I guess its time to submerge in the gdpr stuff. Havn't really had the time yet. This metting made me curious
  735. UsL s/metting/meeting
  736. pep. Ge0rG, so if we regard messages as opaque, that means we can also do the same for emails right. That would definitely simplify things here at work
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  740. Ge0rG pep.: yes, I'd say so
  741. Ge0rG pep.: same spam caveats apply
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  752. pep. Yeah
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  755. pep. Though, for company emails that's different right? Maybe the company can assume that everything that's done under company email is for work (even if I know it's never always the case)
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  878. Maranda > winfried: I don't think we can enforce any kind of remote server processing restrictions at the protocol / logical level. > winfried: it might be sane to assume all data sent over s2s as "third country" 🕺
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  907. moparisthebest The watchdog’s actions prompted Kremlin officials to move from Telegram to the ICQ chat service, owned by billionaire Alisher Usmanov’s Mail.ru, for communications with Russian and international media.
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  910. moparisthebest soooo, ICQ still exists? wow
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  913. Maranda Yes
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  919. Ge0rG ICQ is owned by Russia now? wow
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  921. vanitasvitae Ge0rG: as is vKontakte :)
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  929. UsL a far leap from the Israeli mirabilis..
  930. Ge0rG Mossad, CIA, FSB. It's been a long journey
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  934. UsL indeed : )
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  1038. moparisthebest The expert believes that another way to blackmail inattentive server owners is by creating snapshots of the exposed servers and contacting companies after May 25, asking for a Bitcoin ransom not to report the company to EU authorities, where they stand to receive a hefty fine.
  1039. Tim has joined
  1040. moparisthebest ha who knew EU was introducing a new way to blackmail companies? thanks EU ! :)
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  1057. Maranda well so Cisco Jabber is actually capable of STARTTLS on s2s streams 🤔
  1058. Maranda why not enabling that on cisco.com then
  1059. Maranda pft
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  1121. fippo maranda: it is. iirc you only get that if you talk to the people over there though
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  1123. Maranda fippo I'm not sure I understand, a lot of users on my server have cisco.com contacts and cisco.com never encrypts, that's why I need to still have an exception for it.
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  1126. Holger Maranda: Same here. And yes Cisco Jabber does support STARTTLS on s2s.
  1127. fippo maranda: s/people/admins/
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  1143. Maranda 🤔
  1144. fippo from what i heard they need to enable tls for a particular peer domain. but that was ~5 years ago
  1145. Maranda fippo, and they don't enable it on cisco.com ? lol
  1146. waqas I think he means they need to enable it for your domain
  1147. waqas That seems like such a pain
  1148. Maranda waqas, and I repeat: *and they don't enable it on cisco.com ? lol*
  1149. Maranda 😏
  1150. fippo cisco.com admins have to enable tls for your domain.
  1151. Maranda cisco.com *IS* the domain
  1152. fippo you run cisco.com?
  1153. Maranda No I don't
  1154. Maranda But I'm connecting to it
  1155. Zash ...
  1156. Maranda (via s2s)
  1157. Maranda (and viceversa)
  1158. fippo so cisco.com will look at your domain, check its config "is this guy trustworthy to enable tls?" and probably not find anything
  1159. Maranda . . .
  1160. Zash Maranda: Pretty sure you wrote a plugin that does exacly this.
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  1162. Maranda Ok sorry I got it now, and it's hilarious.
  1163. Maranda So,
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  1165. Maranda *they* have to enable tls for s2s on a particular *remote* domain? *REALLY*?
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  1167. Maranda face desks.
  1168. fippo job security for the admin. i've seen similar things in lync
  1169. Maranda Zash, mine is an exception to make it work, this is just purely demented.
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  1171. Maranda fippo, and I didn't catch "peer" when reading, tired eyes/brain :)
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  1173. fippo at least you don't start scratching your eyes out now that you understood it :-)
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  1180. moparisthebest our lync only federates if the admins explicitly set it up for specific remote domains
  1181. moparisthebest basically ruins the concept of federation, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  1182. Maranda that's fair
  1183. Maranda not enabling tls *if offered* without admin intervention is dumb imho.
  1184. moparisthebest yes that does seem far dumber
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  1187. Zash What's wrong with per remote feature settings? Other than the usuall _encrypt all the things_
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  1189. Maranda If I respond nothing other than, will that trigger some trap? 😎
  1190. Zash You will be locked in a room along with a packet capture and not let out until you find the layer 8 problem in the encrypted stream.
  1191. Maranda Disabling TLS does make sense if the other end does have issues with it or not support, the other way around: E_DOESNT_COMPUTE
  1192. Maranda Hehe
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  1194. Holger You can enable TLS for all s2s connections in Cisco Jabber these days.
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  1196. Maranda Holger, yes I found out stumbling on buffalo.edu
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  1203. Ge0rG Hm. The only contact I had on Cisco.com changed his job recently, so I can't care much any more
  1204. edhelas That's maybe a sign
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  1209. Maranda Ge0rG, I still see traffic, also there some more contacts from I think hosted domains, also nike.com
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  1222. waqas Lync was the other service I was thinking of where I had to deal with this. I'm happy I haven't had to deal with Lync in a few years…it's great for job security though
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  1224. moparisthebest it's "Skype for Business" now, and blue instead of green, still can't reliably send files though so at least some things don't change
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  1228. waqas It was very much enterprise, MS tech people helping us set it up failed (because we had a cloud based environment, and they had a very weird set of hardware and network topology requirements…)
  1229. Ge0rG I'd love to know how to federate with Lync from my XMPP server. Or even how to login from XMPP as a given Lync user.
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  1231. moparisthebest the lync admins have to set up a special XMPP federation bridge
  1232. moparisthebest and in practice it seems no one does this
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  1234. Ge0rG What if our Lync is hosted in O365?
  1235. moparisthebest I used to have a lync transport from xmpp, using libpurple-sipe and such, but it broke years ago
  1236. Ge0rG libpurple. I'm not going down that road.
  1237. waqas MattJ: Had we succeeded in the Prosody-Lync bridge, or did we never manage it? I recall it being a works-with-ejabberd product, not proper XMPP.
  1238. moparisthebest ours is on O365 and federation is still something they have to turn on manually, maybe it's just an admin setting there? don't know
  1239. waqas IIRC it was sensitive to e.g., certain consecutive parts of the stream being in the same TCP packet or not, etc. Lots of other fun things we ran into. Skype for Business UX also is terrible.
  1240. waqas (dumb stuff like sending an XMPP message to someone wouldn't show a notification, so they'd never know)
  1241. Maranda 🤔
  1242. moparisthebest all the time we get a popup in the corner 'PERSONX sent you a message [accept] [ignore]'
  1243. moparisthebest and then you click accept, and you don't see the first few messages they sent before you clicked accept
  1244. moparisthebest I honestly don't know how people think this is a good system
  1245. Maranda didn't you need some Lync Edge Server vattelapesca thing for xmpp federation?
  1246. waqas moparisthebest: Ask your admins :P
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  1248. waqas Yes, it's a bridge
  1249. moparisthebest the best thing is just a braindead policy decision
  1250. waqas We were annoyed enough that we were considering if it'd be saner to use a Prosody->SIP->Lync setup
  1251. moparisthebest we must use contractors for new development, contractors can have VPN access to our systems, contractors cannot have lync accounts, so we can't IM them
  1252. moparisthebest I ended up setting up an IRC server and https://kiwiirc.com/ on a dev server :'(
  1253. Maranda I don't wanna know the usual CAL junk in le MS Fashion behind something like Lync though (one of the reason everyone needing M$ going cloudy these days)
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  1255. Maranda (the CALs are "included")
  1256. moparisthebest now corporate is spamming us with these emails to use "Yammer" which as far as I can tell is a microsoft workplace facebook/twitter clone or something
  1257. moparisthebest who would seriously want to do this?????
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  1261. Ge0rG So everyone agrees Lync is a horrible mess. But nobody has an XMPP-based drop-in replacement with screen sharing and VoIP
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  1263. Zash Jitsi?
  1264. moparisthebest doesn't matter, lync screen sharing and voip never works
  1265. moparisthebest we use webex for that
  1266. Ge0rG moparisthebest: screen sharing works well here, voip mostly
  1267. moparisthebest voip on lync has *never* worked for us, we use conference calls or webex
  1268. moparisthebest screen sharing used to work until about a month ago
  1269. moparisthebest then they decided to fix the terrible latency by reducing quality to a point where you can't read letters anymore
  1270. moparisthebest so, now it is also useless
  1271. waqas Ge0rG: An XMPP replacement wouldn't help. Those who could already jumped over to Slack (I know a few orgs which migrated to Slack from enterprise IM solutions).
  1272. waqas I think the Lync team has learned that given how their product is sold to enterprise exec teams, usability and quality doesn't actually impact the bottom line.
  1273. Ge0rG moparisthebest: hm. interesting point. I had bad lags with a coworker today, but I blamed his wifi
  1274. moparisthebest that seems correct waqas , it's just part of the exchange/outlook package
  1275. Ge0rG waqas: I don't care about Slack and I'd love to migrate our 20-person business away.
  1276. Ge0rG waqas: unfortunately, the Outlook / calendar integration is a huge selling point
  1277. waqas And integration with the MS stack in general, the admin tools, policies, etc
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  1282. Ge0rG Yeah, but I suppose I could convince my coworkers with a better mobile UX if we keep screen sharing and possibly VoIP
  1283. waqas How's skype for business on mobile? I've only seen it on desktop
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  1302. Ge0rG waqas: it sucks. Pretty bloated app, and you don't get messages to both Desktop and mobile
  1303. Ge0rG So you have message loss along the way
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  1305. Ge0rG Kind of like xmpp without 0198 and carbons
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  1313. Maranda And crashes on startup sync in the best Skype tradition?
  1314. Maranda :P
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  1316. Maranda or not?
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  1323. moparisthebest our stuff is hosted on O365 but still only allows connections from the work VPN
  1324. moparisthebest so it's the worst of both worlds
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  1351. jjrh Kinda surprised enterprises are going slack considering it's like $8 a seat.
  1352. jjrh I mean $80 a month for 10 users is pretty steep
  1353. Zash That's probably nothing for an ENTERPRISE
  1354. Ge0rG Yeah, or they just stick to the free plan somehow
  1355. jjrh I'm not sure it's a great deal for enterprises who need like 1000 seats.
  1356. MattJ Any idea how much Lync costs?
  1357. Maranda jjrh, for 5000 users with M$ Exchange you may arrive to pay like $800k a year
  1358. Zash Any idea how much the coffee consumed by 1k people costs?
  1359. jjrh Maranda, yeah but exchange provides a whole lot more than chat.
  1360. Maranda (that's licensing)
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  1363. jjrh I mean that's still nutty to me but considering email is in many cases more critical than even phones I can see businesses justifying it.
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  1365. Maranda jjrh, hmm not really beside some very nutty cases of course :P
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  1370. Maranda jjrh, and doesn't provide that much, spam wise for example Exchange doesn't support SPF, DMARC or DKIM iirc, only O365/OWA (Hotmail) does.
  1371. SamWhited protip: enterprises don't care at all how much it costs as long as they can get a demo, good support, and a fixed and predictable price that includes the ability to expand service in the future. $8 per seat is *nothing* compared to the cost of the paycheck of all the people who will have to set it up and deal with it.
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  1374. Maranda SamWhited, not at that level :P, infact you won't see a single ISP (beside Microsoft itself) ever deploying Exchange.
  1375. jjrh SamWhited, I mean I totally get that and i'm not suggesting enterprises deploy and support their own solution for chat, but it seems like $8 per seat (and their enterprise version is like $12) isn't a great deal when say https://about.mattermost.com/pricing/ has a $3.25 a seat and a 'custom pricing' for when you have a lot of users.
  1376. jjrh I dunno maybe mattermost sucks never used it
  1377. Maranda but of course 8*5000 = 40k so it's doable :P
  1378. Maranda 12 per seat as well
  1379. SamWhited Does mattermost provide them with a person who flies out and does a demo?
  1380. SamWhited Do they provide SLAs? Really good tech support?
  1381. jjrh Probably
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  1383. Maranda I wonder how people will do with the recent Slack introductions
  1384. SamWhited I have no idea, they might, but the price just doesn't matter at all.
  1385. Maranda in terms of privacy
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  1388. jjrh I'd be curious how much profit slack is actually making. Maybe their pricing is to offset the free offerings and their hosting costs are dirt cheap so they don't really need many customers
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  1390. SamWhited Also, places that used to buy from a previous job I was in did heavy risk analysis: will mattermost go out of business tomorrow and we'll have to switch again? Not likely, but maybe. Will Slack? Probably not.
  1391. Maranda (Like that a team owner or something has access to all the data, even private message)
  1392. SamWhited Do you not have that with mattermost? Because that's also a plus for slack in the enterprise space if so
  1393. Zash compliance logging and such, yeah
  1394. SamWhited But anyways, point was that price doesn't matter at all. It's probably not even part of their considerations. Stuff like that does.
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  1398. jjrh I'm not sure I would bank on slack staying in business. Chat is fickle, and a logical thing for voip providers to start selling.
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  1401. jjrh I would think that enterprises would be a little nervous about having their chat data hosted in datacenters they don't own. Maybe if you're dropping half a million a year slack will do whatever you want.
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  1403. SamWhited Yah, that part is the tough one. Depending on who you are and what you do, a lot of places really have to have a behind-the-firewall version, which is why HipChat Server makes so much money.
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  1405. fippo cisco also had some fancy stuff about full encryption (including search) for spark. selling point apparently
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  1407. SamWhited oh nifty, I didn't know that; I really wanted to try to build something like that while at HipChat but couldn't convince anyone that it would be a selling point.
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  1410. fippo samwhited: https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/solutions/collateral/collaboration/cloud-collaboration/cisco-spark-security-white-paper.pdf
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  1413. SamWhited thanks
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  1441. Ge0rG Most BigCorp have adopted the cloud by now so on premise chat servers are only interesting for medical and military services now
  1442. jjrh They have adopted the cloud but their own cloud
  1443. jjrh and on premise is more "on our vpn"
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  1450. Ge0rG jjrh: not my experience with multiple big customers
  1451. jjrh Interesting. I would have thought there would be legal implications depending on where the server is located and a risk that the SAS company could be compelled to give up your data if they run into issues.
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  1454. SamWhited Ge0rG: that's actually what I've found to be true for the most part. At ThreatGRID we couldn't do anything that wasn't a physical on-prem device because we serviced a lot of financial sector people, but at HipChat Server we *only* supported AWS, because basically everyone had their private networks hooked up to Amazon or entirely within Amazon.
  1455. Ge0rG jjrh: that was my initial guess as well, but if you are an international company, you are susceptible to the laws of whoever wants your data anyway
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  1457. SamWhited So outside of finance and military stuff, everyone seemed to be fine with "private clouds"
  1458. Ge0rG "private" networks.
  1459. SamWhited They're private, because if they're not Amazon gets sued for billions of dollars. They have good insentive to make them as private as possible.
  1460. Ge0rG Yeah, seeing an enterprise with 100k+ employees fully embracing O365 made my head spin.
  1461. SamWhited 0365?
  1462. Ge0rG Microsoft Office 365, the cloud offering
  1463. Zash 0 or O
  1464. SamWhited ahh,
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  1466. SamWhited I assumed you did not mean XEP-0365, or RFC 365, neither of which made sense but both of which I thought of in the context of this chat
  1467. jjrh But isn't the difference here that if you use slack they are running 100% of the show - today they might be on AWS, tomorrow on some other service, but you as a customer really don't have any say regarding that.
  1468. Ge0rG Zash: fix your font
  1469. SamWhited heh, they look completely different in my terminal and I still didn't notice that that was an "O"
  1470. Ge0rG Bummer.
  1471. Zash ОO0ΟΘ
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  1473. Ge0rG Ω
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