XSF Discussion - 2018-04-20

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  352. ralphm

    Hmm, just noticed that Conversations doesn't (also) send XEP-0080 payload when sharing location.

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  355. daniel

    ralphm: is there any client that will do something reasonable if I just stick a geoloc element in the message (w/o the pubsub overhead)?

  356. daniel

    Assuming that this is what you are talking about

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  391. ralphm

    I'm not sure, to be honest, but it is something I'm suggesting being implemented in what we are doing.

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  628. lovetox

    are these not 2 different use cases

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  630. lovetox

    i always thought xep 80 is more of a, contantly sharing your location all the time

  631. lovetox

    conversations just shares the location at one point in time with a geo uri or not?

  632. jonasw

    mmm, I know of a protocol which suggested inclusion of XEP-0080 payload into messages. Ge0rG?

  633. jonasw

    (it’ll haunt you forever!)

  634. lovetox

    either way gajim supports xep 80 🙂

  635. MattJ

    lovetox, the XEP provides two parts: the data format (<geoloc>), and a recommended transport (PEP)

  636. MattJ

    The point is, any time you need to encode location in XMPP, the same data format/code can be reused without inventing something new

  637. lovetox

    ah i see

  638. lovetox

    so you want to use the geoloc element with another transport

  639. jonasw

    extensible XML is extensible

  640. lovetox

    in this case a message

  641. MattJ

    So yeah, if you want to send a specific location once over XMPP, but don't want to publish it to all your contacts, I think including it directly in a message is quite sensible

  642. Zash

    So, the thing, it's just sending <body>geo:x,y</body> right?

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  644. lovetox

    yeah and this is useable by the user even if the client doesnt support locations

  645. lovetox

    i think firefox even supports this uri scheme

  646. Zash


  647. Ge0rG

    jonasw: no!

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  649. Ge0rG

    jonasw: or I'll PR xmpp-echo-bot into xmpp.org/clients!

  650. MattJ

    Right, so like OOB (which is similar - it defines a data format as well as different ways of using it, iq vs. message), the <body> may be used only as a fallback

  651. Zash

    Having a graceful fallback in <body> is sane.

  652. Zash

    Having *only* the body is meh.

  653. MattJ

    However like OOB, we have the problem where it's not known if the <body> is just a fallback, or also includes some information to which the data payload is an addition

  654. MattJ

    e.g. <body>Don't come to this place, here be dragons</body><geoloc>...</geoloc>

  655. MattJ

    Client sees <geoloc> and says "I know this! They sent a location, so I'll show that instead of the <body>..."

  656. Zash

    There used to be thing magical awesome feature negotiation, but we've killed that, thanks to Carbons and MAM

  657. MattJ

    Zash, that never worked with offline messages either

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  660. lovetox

    MattJ we can decide

  661. lovetox

    the dataformat has a description attr

  662. MattJ

    Right, that's currently a problem I have with OOB

  663. lovetox

    so if we have description ignore body

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  666. MattJ

    That means I can't use OOB like an "attachment" feature

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  670. MattJ

    <body>Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier</body><oob><desc>Word document</desc>...</oob>

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  672. daniel

    Fwiw Conversations will only use the oob tag if it's either the same as the body or if the body doesn't exists

  673. MattJ

    I can think of a protcol solution, not sure whether it's actually a good idea or not

  674. daniel

    I'm not defending oob as the best thing ever invented

  675. MattJ


  676. daniel

    But the word document situation wouldn't happen

  677. Zash

    > Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier Where, I don't see it?

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  680. MattJ

    Zash, fair point :)

  681. Zash

    Nice things be unavailable.

  682. MattJ

    So for backward compatibility, we have to always use <body> as a fallback

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  686. MattJ

    so <desc> suddenly makes sense as a non-fallback piece of text

  687. lovetox

    yes if desc is there hide body

  688. Zash

    If only anyone actually used taht

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  691. Zash

    I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today: body := $desc \n $uri oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc }

  692. MattJ

    Zash, yes, pretty much what I'm proposing

  693. MattJ

    The current Conversations logic makes sense, to defend against any clients which may be treating <body> *not* as a fallback

  694. MattJ

    But I'm not sure whether any clients actually do that today

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  696. MattJ

    So we just need to document that oob always overrides body, and the accompanying text, if any, is in <desc>

  697. daniel

    > I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today: > body := $desc \n $uri > oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc } I can live with that.

  698. daniel

    For now it won't break Conversations.

  699. daniel

    And in the future I might implement support

  700. MattJ

    daniel, iirc you said the text wouldn't be displayed in any case?

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  703. MattJ

    Oh right, it would ignore the oob for now

  704. daniel

    Well by not break I mean Conversations would display the fallback

  705. MattJ

    Got it

  706. Ge0rG

    it would break inline image display ;)

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  708. MattJ

    Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :)

  709. Kev

    Does 66 have anything over SIMS?

  710. MattJ

    But even the example there is using it in an attachment-style

  711. MattJ

    Kev, yes, things support it already :)

  712. Zash

    Small, simple, self-contained.

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  714. MattJ

    I think it's simple because it's always just a URL

  715. MattJ

    SIMS suddenly pulls in Jingle

  716. MattJ

    and that's quite a commitment for a client that simply wants to display an image

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  720. Kev

    SIMS doesn't need to be Jingle though, does it? It can just do URLs?

  721. Kev

    Or I've completely misunderstood.

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  723. Zash

    But why would you if you're just sending URLs anyways?

  724. Zash

    (SIMS has more things that are useful tho)

  725. Kev

    Because you usually want metadata with it.

  726. MattJ

    Kev, "a client supporting this XEP MUST implement Jingle File Transfer (XEP-0234) [2] and HTTP File Upload (XEP-0363) [4]."

  727. andy has left

  728. alexis has left

  729. alexis has joined

  730. MattJ

    which is weird, because even to just receive and display images from others, I MUST implement a XEP related to uploading?

  731. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  732. Kev

    Yeah, either it's useful just for fetching stuff, in which case it shouldn't have that, or we should move all the metadata stuff into references itself.

  733. Zash

    Maybe separate requirements for sending and receiving?

  734. mrdoctorwho has left

  735. MattJ

    and rather than forcing client to implement Jingle, there should be a fallback as we have with the OOB solution

  736. MattJ

    So I think that answers why OOB > SIMS right now (but may not always be)

  737. Ge0rG

    all the refererence / link XEPs suck in different ways.

  738. MattJ

    The sad truth is, anybody can click a URL, but you can't count on all of a user's clients supporting Jingle

  739. vanitasvitae has left

  740. tux has left

  741. Kev

    Are you interested in just a clickable URL though?

  742. MattJ

    (I don't think any of mine do, and one is a console client that I use via ssh... what is it supposed to do with a Jingle reference?)

  743. MattJ

    No, I'm saying that a clickable URL is the common fallback that works absolutely everywhere

  744. alexis has left

  745. alexis has joined

  746. lovetox

    xep 80 links to a invalid site

  747. lovetox


  748. Dave Cridland has left

  749. Andrew Nenakhov

    > Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :) Btw I don't see why would anyone use 066 over 221 for inline image display

  750. vanitasvitae has left

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  753. MattJ


  754. alexis has joined

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  769. daniel has left

  770. daniel

    by the way if any server operators are interested in having their uptime tracked you can add your own server with this form: https://status.conversations.im/add/

  771. daniel

    you can of course also just self host the thing. but apparantly some people don't want to

  772. rion has joined

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  779. jonasw

    GDPR meeting in 5? pep., Ge0rG, winfried

  780. pep.

    oh right

  781. alexis has left

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  788. jubalh has left

  789. Ge0rG


  790. alexis has left

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  792. alexis has joined

  793. winfried

    Give me one minute

  794. jonasw

    Ge0rG, why?

  795. Zash

    > 15:56:00 jonasw> GDPR meeting in 5? You have until 16:01

  796. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it was just an ACK of my presence

  797. jonasw

    weird way to ack

  798. pep.


  799. pep.

    I got beverage and snack, all the good stuff

  800. Ge0rG


  801. Maranda

    Ge0rG's famous ack

  802. Ge0rG

    better now?

  803. alexis has left

  804. Maranda

    Well I imagine a headdesk would be stranger for a ACK

  805. jonasw

    Ge0rG, yes

  806. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  807. winfried acks his presence

  808. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  809. pep.


  810. Ge0rG

    Are we there yet?

  811. Yagiza has left

  812. jonasw


  813. winfried

    all present

  814. winfried *bangs* the gavel

  815. winfried

    pep.: thanks for your logs!

  816. dwd has left

  817. jere has joined

  818. pep.

    I was a bit lost with the two last meetings, not sure in what category to put what we talked about

  819. jere has joined

  820. winfried

    we have to do the spamdetection and can then move on to the consequences

  821. jonasw

    I’d like to insert a point: do we want to send a posting to the gdpr list set up by the debian folks?

  822. winfried

    pep.: When I have a bit time to spare, I wil check

  823. pep.

    yes I would like to

  824. Ge0rG

    jonasw: 👍

  825. pep.

    jonasw, can do

  826. winfried

    good plan

  827. Ge0rG

    tiden up the wiki a bit after this meeting and send it out?

  828. pep.


  829. alexis has joined

  830. winfried

    that is that earth.li list?

  831. alexis has left

  832. winfried

    Ge0rG: good plan, maybe add a summary so far?

  833. pep.


  834. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  835. pep.

    winfried, boarf

  836. winfried


  837. pep.

    It's still a wip

  838. winfried

    it is

  839. alexis has joined

  840. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  841. winfried

    do we need any reflection on the process before diving into it?

  842. alexis has left

  843. rtq3 has left

  844. winfried

    I guess not... ;-)

  845. winfried

    last point of 1.1d before diving into 1.1e: spam detection. What are we doing there and is that justified

  846. pep.

    If we want to provide a proper service to other users of the network I guess we have to yes

  847. alexis has joined

  848. Ge0rG

    winfried: what I am doing: automatic analysis of all messages for matching one of two sets of certain (super secret) criteria.

  849. winfried

    pep.: I was referring to legal grounds for processing, but you are right, that doesn't justify it

  850. Alex has left

  851. Ge0rG

    messages that match criterion 1: manual analysis of body text (this might be really evil, dunno)

  852. Ge0rG

    messages that match criterion 2: automatic blocking of the sender JID forever.

  853. pep.

    hmm, wouldn't any manual analysis directly fall under 9.1?

  854. winfried

    Ge0rG: fixed criteria or self-learning/statistical ones?

  855. alexis has left

  856. alexis has joined

  857. jonasw

    Ge0rG, all of that falls apart once spammers start to OMEMO things, right?

  858. jonasw

    or at least the body text analysis

  859. Ge0rG

    winfried: fixed criteria. The manual analysis is only used to improve the criteria-2 list

  860. alexis has left

  861. pep.

    Ah, you're talking about non-bayes analysis or similar I guess

  862. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yes. I'm eagerly awaiting that day so I can start blocking OMEMO

  863. alexis has joined

  864. winfried has a head crunching regulations and articles

  865. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  866. moparisthebest has left

  867. Ge0rG


  868. moparisthebest has joined

  869. pep.

    hmm, the e2ee thing seems annoying yeah

  870. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  871. winfried

    pep.: e2ee is a security risk!

  872. pep.


  873. pep.

    Ge0rG, I'd say that's a bit involved for spammers no?

  874. jonasw

    manually reading the body seems fairly evil though

  875. pep.


  876. winfried

    lets brainstorm a bit

  877. pep.

    jonasw, agreed

  878. moparisthebest

    it's ok, the spammers aren't going to sue him for it

  879. rtq3 has joined

  880. winfried

    abuse detection/prevention is a ground for processing

  881. pep.

    moparisthebest, might not be spammers he's reading messages of

  882. daniel

    I think the target audience of their spam hates omemo and uses pidgin or other crappy messengers. So I honestly wouldn't expect them to start using omemo any time soon

  883. jonasw

    winfried, in any case: spam filtering is currently not standardised and I’m not sure if we need to cover it within the XSF

  884. winfried

    as long as it proportionate

  885. jonasw

    at least not at this point in time

  886. winfried

    so reading every message is not proportionate, reading messages already marked as spam is

  887. pep.

    winfried, is it?

  888. pep.

    is it written in your bible

  889. jonasw

    winfried, depends on how you mark as spam

  890. moparisthebest

    point is, no one could tell if you did or not, so it's legal!

  891. pep.

    moparisthebest, shush

  892. jonasw

    if you learn on spam based on viagra and penis enlargement, your spam detection could easily trip off at 9.1-relveant non-spam content.

  893. moparisthebest

    what this: Ge0rG, do you ever manually read messages? (answer no)

  894. winfried

    pep.: well, that is one of the things I was doubting about

  895. Yagiza has joined

  896. winfried

    but here in the netherlands 'escalating fraud prevention' is accepted right now

  897. pep.

    jonasw, your spam filter could also be "true"

  898. winfried

    (though a bit controversial)

  899. winfried

    pep., jonasw very true

  900. jonasw

    I motion that we skip spam detection of any kind for now, because of lack of standardisation. Just leave a note that any type of body analysis might go into 9.1 realm.

  901. winfried

    in the escalating things, metadata is the first step, then automated detection then manual analysis

  902. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: yes I do.

  903. alexis has left

  904. alexis has joined

  905. winfried

    moparisthebest: it is justifyable if it is proportionate and if it can't be done in an other way

  906. moparisthebest

    oops, you messed up Ge0rG :P

  907. alexis has left

  908. alexis has joined

  909. winfried

    jonasw: I think we need to give some warnings about it, but we can't fully handle it indeed

  910. winfried

    so +1 to the motion of jonasw

  911. pep.

    how the hell does google justify that

  912. pep.

    yeah I also want to leave this aside for now

  913. winfried

    pep.: Google just lets you sign that they own your soul and your communications

  914. rtq3 has left

  915. winfried

    Ge0rG: ?

  916. rtq3 has joined

  917. winfried

    is it me, or did everybody leave for a friday afternoon beer on a terrace?

  918. Zash

    Good idea!

  919. pep.

    I was also planning something similar

  920. pep.

    it's sunny in the England, joy!

  921. pep.

    it's sunny in England, joy!

  922. Ge0rG

    winfried: what was your question, sorry?

  923. Zash

    It was sunny here yesterday.

  924. rion has left

  925. Zash

    Now it's grey meh.

  926. moparisthebest

    kinda on topic: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/30509/how-are-gdpr-fines-actually-enforced-for-us-companies-with-no-physical-presence

  927. winfried

    do you ack leaving spam detection with a note about possible problems with it?

  928. alexis has joined

  929. moparisthebest

    "The GDPR requires non-EU entities handling EU data to appoint a representative in the EU, and this representative will be able receive the fines or other penalties relating to regulation compliance." ;; haha EU lawmakers really are insane aren't they?

  930. Ge0rG

    winfried: yes, ack

  931. winfried


  932. goffi has left

  933. pep.

    winfried, what do you want to put in 1.1e?

  934. Ge0rG

    pep.: I'd say specific action items for people involved (i.e. server operators)

  935. pep.

    State what fine if you don't do x or y?

  936. Wiktor has left

  937. goffi has joined

  938. winfried

    up to now we found several limits, things to consider regarding the processing we are doing

  939. pep.

    istr winfried also talking about drafting a policy or sth

  940. Ge0rG

    pep.: the fines aren't clear yet. The maximum fines are well-defined, but there are zero rulings yet

  941. winfried

    I think we should no look at what we must do to fix those issues

  942. Ge0rG

    winfried: {not,now}?

  943. winfried

    like s2s to a server that is violating privacy

  944. winfried


  945. pep.

    winfried, I guess you can blacklist once you become aware

  946. Ge0rG

    but how do you become aware?

  947. winfried

    shall we first make a list of issues to consider?

  948. Ge0rG

    I don't think it's useful in any way to block s2s

  949. pep.

    Ge0rG, that'S the trick

  950. jubalh has joined

  951. Ge0rG

    We need to ensure that the users are informed about the possibility of their data leaving the EU

  952. jubalh has left

  953. alexis has left

  954. alexis has joined

  955. winfried

    OK, I opened pandora's box of s2s

  956. winfried

    lets empty it...

  957. winfried

    issue a: can it be justified?

  958. winfried

    (to do s2s)

  959. pep.

    what can?

  960. pep.

    ah, we said article 6 and 49.1b

  961. pep.

    6.1b and 49.1b ?

  962. winfried

    pep.: exactly, but that assumes no more processing then is needed for the task

  963. pep.

    We can also ask for consent with 6.1a and 49.1a iirc

  964. winfried

    so how do we assure there is no more processing then needed for the task?

  965. pep.

    For the part that's not covered by implicit consent

  966. winfried

    pep.: yes

  967. winfried

    but how do we know we need extra consent?

  968. alexis has left

  969. alexis has joined

  970. pep.

    all we haven't covered in 1.1c/d I would say?

  971. winfried

    I guess we can't enforce this by technical means, it is a legal issue

  972. moparisthebest

    does an incoming message to your user make it your user's message? in which case you already have their consent?

  973. winfried

    moparisthebest: no

  974. moparisthebest

    why not?

  975. pep.

    winfried, did we not say yes to this question?

  976. winfried

    moparisthebest: it still contains pii from the sender

  977. pep.

    right, assuming no further analysis of the message

  978. moparisthebest

    that they willingly sent to your user, put completely under your user's control?

  979. moparisthebest

    which they granted consent to you for, maybe?

  980. winfried

    pep.: on storage (MAM) of the conversation not on the processing (relaying) the message

  981. winfried

    moparisthebest: by willingly sending it to a user, the sender agrees to the processing of sending the message, the receiver is no part of that

  982. moparisthebest

    does anyone actually know that are is everyone just guessing until it's tested in court?

  983. pep.


  984. MattJ

    moparisthebest, nobody knows

  985. alexis has left

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  987. winfried

    moparisthebest: there are some wp29 guidelines, they have a legal status

  988. moparisthebest

    I'd think they'd all be equally arguable in court

  989. jonasw

    winfried, didn’t we establish last time the opposite of that?

  990. jonasw

    like, received message == recipients content => covered by recipients consent.

  991. winfried

    jonasw: hmmm... refresh my mind (it has a friday explosion)

  992. moparisthebest

    again, what are the email providers doing? that's really all we need to know, numerous email providers are far bigger and have far more money than the entire XMPP network

  993. jonasw

    winfried, I’m semi-afk myself, but I think we figured that due to the fact that the recipients server has consent from the recipient for processing, it’s fine because the sender gave the recipient the data.

  994. jonasw

    moparisthebest, nobody knows!

  995. winfried

    jonasw: I thought that was only in the context of MAM at the receiver server

  996. jonasw

    moparisthebest, they won’t tell you because it threatens them legally

  997. pep.

    moparisthebest, https://www.earth.li/pipermail/gdpr-discuss/2018-April/000013.html a quite I liked in there, "Of course, anyone's reading might contrast quite a bit from how lawyers will over time engineer courts into interpreting it"

  998. jonasw

    winfried, okay, what are we talking about if not about MAM?

  999. moparisthebest

    jonasw, than that's what we should find out rather than trying to make up stuff on our own?

  1000. winfried

    jonasw: relaying the message, logging it, spam filtering it

  1001. jonasw

    moparisthebest, except that they won’t tell us

  1002. winfried

    using it for profiling for targeted advertisement

  1003. jonasw

    because it threatens them legally to do so, I guess

  1004. pep.

    moparisthebest, also business opportunities, so insentive not to reveal how they do it

  1005. jonasw

    that, too

  1006. jonasw

    but I guess they’re more afraid of them actually not being compliant

  1007. pep.


  1008. moparisthebest

    but there are plenty of more open ones that would too?

  1009. moparisthebest


  1010. winfried

    moparisthebest: there are many things unclear on the gdpr, but many thing things *are*, we can anticipate on that

  1011. jonasw

    hm, we could ask posteo

  1012. winfried

    moparisthebest: and many companies try to ignore the obvious, for example because it doesn't fit in their business model

  1013. moparisthebest

    it's not great but, seems like good odds an email provider will be targetted way before any xmpp provider, could just wait and see...

  1014. pep.

    moparisthebest, not sure that's a good option

  1015. moparisthebest

    the other option is for non-lawyers to try to interpret lawyer-speak, and guess what a lawyer and judge will decide

  1016. pep.

    So.. we didn't get really far today

  1017. moparisthebest

    also, not a good option

  1018. winfried

    moparisthebest: I don't want to tell my customers "we are neatly ignoring the law, because we hope somebody else gets caught first"

  1019. moparisthebest

    whether you try really hard to comply or not, that's still essentially the position you are in

  1020. winfried

    pep.: yes, I am a bit frustrated too...

  1021. pep.

    moparisthebest, if this doesn't interest you, fine

  1022. winfried

    moparisthebest: it is not that black-white, many things *are* clear

  1023. jonasw

    sorry, I was more distracted than I expected during this timeslot :/

  1024. moparisthebest

    don't get me wrong you guys are doing good work and finding the baseline of generally what looks to be compliant

  1025. moparisthebest

    but none of you are lawyers, and even if you were, they can be wrong too

  1026. moparisthebest

    it's a terrible situation, I'm just glad I'm not in the EU

  1027. pep.

    moparisthebest, yes everybody can be wrong and we'll see on the first court cases

  1028. pep.

    In the meantime, we kind of have to do something about it anyway

  1029. Holger

    That's true for basically any law that applies to whatever you do.

  1030. pep.


  1031. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: the good thing is that if you show to the court that you clearly did your best to follow the rules, your probability of ending up in jail sinks

  1032. MattJ

    Obligatory link to http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 if you haven't read it, on the subject of law and computing

  1033. dwd has left

  1034. moparisthebest

    my only concern pep. is you overanalyze something and end up crippling federation or something that is useful

  1035. pep.

    moparisthebest, we're only giving guidelines, and we welcome anybody to give input, or even bring lawyers to the dicussion if possible

  1036. pep.

    moparisthebest, also as Ge0rG said

  1037. moparisthebest

    yea but if the guidelines end up being 'disable federation except on an opt-in manual basis' that ruins everything

  1038. SamWhited

    FYI, there's a bit of XMPP discussion in this Google Allo/SMS thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882539

  1039. winfried

    moparisthebest: I think we are in matter of fact analyzing how far we can go with federation without running into big problems

  1040. pep.

    that is not where we're headed no

  1041. Tim has joined

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  1045. Valerian has left

  1046. pep.

    Shall we plan next

  1047. winfried

    yes... I will try to make a analysis/summary of the discussion so far and the issues to tackle before it

  1048. pep.

    I can't do Wed and (Fri morning)

  1049. alexis has left

  1050. alexis has joined

  1051. pep.

    Tue 12:30 CEST as before?

  1052. jonasw

    pep., that would work for me

  1053. winfried

    Tue I am stuck

  1054. pep.

    winfried, yes that'd be nice to know where we're at

  1055. pep.

    Mon maybe?

  1056. winfried

    mon wfm

  1057. pep.

    Mon 1230 CEST

  1058. winfried


  1059. pep.

    jonasw, Ge0rG

  1060. jonasw

    pep., can do

  1061. Ge0rG

    Mon and Tue should both work

  1062. pep.


  1063. pep.

    Mon 1230 CEST it is

  1064. alexis has left

  1065. pep.


  1066. alexis has joined

  1067. Ge0rG

    pep.: thanks for chairing! ;)

  1068. pep.


  1069. Ge0rG

    thanks to winfried too, obviously

  1070. Ge0rG

    Sorry I was semi-AFK, had two important and unscheduled customer calls :(

  1071. winfried is searching the gavel

  1072. daniel has left

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  1077. winfried

    Ge0rG: I noticed something like that already, can happen

  1078. jonasw

    thanks all

  1079. Tim has joined

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  1088. pep.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882862 "an entirely over-the-top service that everyone could use, on any platform, without the consent, extra billing or buggy implementation of their carrier.", I guess they're missing the point, you still get the consent (in their meaning of the word) of WhatsApp to send your messages.

  1089. alexis has left

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  1098. moparisthebest

    https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/help ha lawyers eyeing GDPR stuff

  1099. rtq3 has left

  1100. lovetox

    The Last Call ends on 2017-12-12

  1101. lovetox

    says xep 363

  1102. lovetox

    so 4 months later what happens now?

  1103. MattJ

    I last see an email from Dave Cridland saying: "Re-reading this and other feedback, I'm going to push back on moving this to Draft until substantial improvements are done to Security Considerations in particular, and normative language use in general."

  1104. MattJ

    There has been an update to the XEP since then however

  1105. jere has joined

  1106. SamWhited

    It might be time for the editors to reissue the LC on that

  1107. jere has joined

  1108. daniel

    I'll do one tiny update. Give me second

  1109. lovetox

    does the xsf have tool to track these things?

  1110. lovetox

    there are probably 100 xeps in different states that have deadlines

  1111. lovetox

    my observation is that these dates are not actually tracked, so the deadlines mean nothing

  1112. Guus has left

  1113. rtq3 has joined

  1114. lovetox

    i dont know what the correct process is, but a xep where the LC ended and it was voted to not advance, should be moved back to experimental or something

  1115. jonasw

    lovetox, seems legit

  1116. jonasw

    editor’s bsy though

  1117. lovetox

    and not kept in this LC ended, but we have to search the mailinglist what actually happend -state

  1118. Kev

    As with all things, feel free to help do something about it :)

  1119. lovetox

    i just did, its not meant as whining, i deal with this at work everyday, i asked if you have a tool to track these deadlines?

  1120. Kev

    Not beyond basic things like popping it in Trello (unless jonasw tells me we've got something better I'm not aware of).

  1121. Kev

    We could, in principle, scrape the dates out of the XEPs automatically, but I don't believe we have anything currently to do that.

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  1123. Zash


  1124. alexis has joined

  1125. lovetox

    is there any automatic state changes happening?

  1126. lovetox

    like triggered by something, and executed by the server without the editor doing something?

  1127. Guus has left

  1128. lovetox

    or does every state change need a manual triggering by the editor?

  1129. Kev

    State changes are all manual (which is right, I think).

  1130. Kev

    Sending emails is also manual, which isn't right - that bit's nearly automated but not quite finished.

  1131. SamWhited has left

  1132. lovetox

    so if every state change is manual, then a simple excel (or whatever you use on linux) list with the 400 xeps and there current status would be sufficient

  1133. lovetox

    if its on the server and everyone has access to

  1134. lovetox

    before council meeting, look at the list, filter state X look at deadline, and bring to vote

  1135. ralphm has left

  1136. lovetox

    its not really elaborate solution, but i think thats sufficient for the task

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  1140. MattJ

    I don't think the spreadsheet part is even necessary

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  1142. Kev

    I don't think that helps in this particular case, though, which was that it was blocked pending changes, and either the changes didn't happen, or it wasn't clear that they had.

  1143. lovetox

    the problem is, nobody looked if they happend

  1144. lovetox

    because it was not on the agenda anymore

  1145. lovetox

    which it would have been if there was a list with all LC xeps

  1146. lovetox

    because then it would be easy to look at all LC every council meeting

  1147. lovetox

    and im not sure what you mean by "blocked"

  1148. lovetox

    if LC ended, and you block it, then it cant be in LC anymore

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  1151. lovetox

    or maybe thats the problem, that its not usual to set the xep back to experimantal

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  1153. MattJ

    I feel almost like we need some tests for the xeps repo to highlight inconsistencies

  1154. Zash

    `xeps$ xpath -e /xep/header/lastcall xep-0???.xml`

  1155. Kev

    lovetox: Because it shouldn't go back to Experimental really. According to our process it should be rejected.

  1156. Kev

    Which is obviously not right.

  1157. Kev

    So just leaving it in Proposed is what tends to happen.

  1158. lovetox

    your process gives you only Accepted or Rejected

  1159. lovetox


  1160. lovetox

    after a LC

  1161. lovetox

    this seems not good, maybe add that it can be set back to experimental if the xep in gerneral is useful, but lacks some things

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  1167. Dave Cridland

    Yeah, we should allow popping things back to Experimental.

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  1170. Dave Cridland

    Although possibly the right thing to do is pop them into Rejected, but allow Rejected XEPs to be pulled back to Experimental, like Deferred ones.

  1171. ralphm has joined

  1172. Dave Cridland

    (The difference being that if Council has rejected it, and nobody does anythign further, it should probably stay rejected and not automatically go back to Experimental)

  1173. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: that sounds like the perfect recipe for offending authors.

  1174. Kev

    I'm not sure that's true (Dave)

  1175. Kev

    It seems that an abandoned LC XEP is much like an abandoned Experimental XEP.

  1176. Dave Cridland

    Kev, So Deferred?

  1177. Kev

    And letting them both be Experimental at the time of last action, and defer naturally seems sane to me.

  1178. ralphm

    Are we talking about the Proposed state?

  1179. Ge0rG

    Deferred sounds better

  1180. Kev

    ralphm: Yes.

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  1182. lovetox

    you dont want to set it to a state where devs are scared to implement it, only because one council member thought some minor thing has to be adjusted

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  1184. Kev

    So an E with 5 months before Def goes to LC, gets -1, it then goes back to E for another 5 until it goes Def.

  1185. lovetox

    so Rejected sounds bad

  1186. Kev

    Or something.

  1187. Kev

    lovetox: Indeed.

  1188. lovetox

    Yes Kev your proposal sounds sane

  1189. ralphm

    Rejected would be the appropriate state if the author is unwilling to change it based on said council members' comments.

  1190. Kev

    ralphm: I don't think so based purely on that criterion.

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  1192. ralphm

    I am ok with an edge Rejected->Experimental

  1193. lovetox

    yes of course, the case we talk currently is, nobody had time to look at things, or forgot but the xep is a good xep 🙂

  1194. Kev

    Because if it's a worthwhile XEP with an intransigent author, the right thing is to assign a new author.

  1195. Kev

    Not to kill the XEP.

  1196. ralphm

    Kev: allowing Rejected->Experimental would enable just that, no?

  1197. Kev

    ralphm: Pointlessly, IMHO.

  1198. lovetox

    Rejected should be an end state

  1199. lovetox

    in my opinion

  1200. Kev

    I think allowing LC to end in any of Draft, Rejected, Experimental would be good to me.

  1201. ralphm

    Somebody wants to pick up the Rejected XEP, does the work, suggests going back to Experimental.

  1202. Kev

    And leaving it to Council to decide which.

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  1204. ralphm


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  1206. lovetox

    so in this case now with httpupload

  1207. ralphm

    But then you have to define how a vote in Council causes which transition

  1208. lovetox

    i message the editor, saying LC has ended, no changes on the xep

  1209. lovetox

    then he has to set it to rejected

  1210. alexis has left

  1211. lovetox

    10 minutes later daniel messages: oh i make the change i forgot

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  1214. lovetox

    then he has to put it again into experimental..

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  1216. ralphm

    lovetox: in the current process, only Council can make it go to Rejected to begin with, after a vote.

  1217. lovetox

    good, so council should decide

  1218. ralphm

    So it is Experimental -> Proposed -[vote]-> Rejected/Draft

  1219. lovetox

    experimental because author was reached and promises to do something

  1220. lovetox

    or rejected, we cant reach anyone

  1221. lovetox

    i feel there is no need for a hard state machine, LC -> Rejected -> experimental

  1222. lovetox

    although i dont care in the end, but this probably generates work for the editor

  1223. lovetox

    and has no real gain

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  1225. lovetox

    council can determine if its worth to go from LC -> Experimantal

  1226. ralphm

    If a modification to XEP-0001 is proposed, including how voting in Council works with three possible outcomes, I'd of course be happy to entertain that proposal in an upcoming Board meeting/

  1227. MattJ

    I'm not sure LC should be an explicit state, I think that's the problem here

  1228. Dave Cridland

    lovetox, The benefit of a hard state machine is that people are slightly less likely to scream about abuse of power.

  1229. Ge0rG

    It's great to have a process to change the process.

  1230. Kev

    MattJ: That may well be.

  1231. lovetox

    Dave Cridland, hm yes didnt saw it from this point of vie

  1232. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: I'm pretty sure if there is a Collusion of Council, we can figure out a way to formally follow the process to achieve any desired abuse of power.

  1233. Ge0rG &

  1234. lovetox

    also would it be a abuse of power if the council votes on the state?

  1235. lovetox

    i think not

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  1237. Kev

    If I was proposing wording to xep1, I would go with a slightly more formal: When LC expires, Council shall vote on advancement to Draft. If this vote fails Council shall then vote on Rejection. If this vote also fails, the XEP shall return to a state of Experimental (and shall later be deferred after the normal period after the substantive modification).

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  1260. ralphm

    I'd +1 that

  1261. ralphm

    So please send a request to that end to Board

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  1263. ralphm

    I think it would be useful, though, to actually record objections in the Changelog. We haven't done this, before, but it might be useful to see the history if progressing failed at some point.

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  1265. Ge0rG

    +1 to that

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  1302. Maranda 💕 muc favicons.

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  1304. Maranda


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  1317. ralphm


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  1320. ralphm

    RCS? Come on.

  1321. Maranda


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  1323. moparisthebest

    difference being they couldn't charge xmpp servers for federation like they can with carriers I'm assuming

  1324. moparisthebest

    what is this? google's 10th attempt at instant messaging? 20th? I've lost count

  1325. lovetox

    and this one is obviously going to failk

  1326. lovetox

    and this one is obviously going to fail

  1327. moparisthebest

    sure I mean why would anyone think the 20th time is the charm :)

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  1332. ralphm

    moparisthebest I'm not sure if that's true, but it has little to do with Open

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  1335. moparisthebest

    right it's not open at all, this RCS business

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  1337. Zash

    Which RCS is this even?

  1338. moparisthebest

    Zash, https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/19/google-changes-its-messaging-strategy-again-goodbye-to-allo-double-down-on-rcs/

  1339. Zash

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services ?

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  1350. MattJ


  1351. Ge0rG

    RCS is the massive fail that happens when telcos try to grasp and monetize whatsapp

  1352. lovetox

    i dont get it, its not anymore just about messaging

  1353. lovetox

    this reads like all it does is send one message to a contact

  1354. moparisthebest

    we should make bets how long this lasts before google abandons it

  1355. lovetox

    i bet it doesnt even start

  1356. Ge0rG

    "RCS could allow free chats across different networks on Android or other devices" except that it's operated by the telcos and billed by the message

  1357. moparisthebest

    I give it maybe a year before they give up

  1358. moparisthebest

    yea I agree lovetox I don't think it'll ever get off the ground, but I give it a year until they give up

  1359. moparisthebest

    think of the poor telcos missing out on all those sweet per message fees! <- something no one has ever said except telco CEOs

  1360. Ge0rG

    RCS was "introduced" in 2012 and nobody wanted it but the carriers. No idea who paid Google how much to get them behind it.

  1361. Ge0rG

    But as it doesn't even fit Google's business strategy, I would counter-bet that this public announcement is all we are going to see of their involvment

  1362. lovetox

    in most countrys sms are free anyway

  1363. dwd has left

  1364. Ge0rG

    Okay, there is _maybe_ one way for Google to align it with their strategy - by selling targeted RCS spam to companies

  1365. daniel has left

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  1367. Ge0rG

    lovetox: SMS were free, then telcos discovered they can bill users per message and then it took over a decade to get decent flatrate offers

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  1369. lovetox

    yeah i just mean, now why going back

  1370. Ge0rG

    I've only switched to an SMS flat two months ago

  1371. lovetox

    nobody will accept paying for a message

  1372. Ge0rG

    lovetox: because RCS is a premium service

  1373. Ge0rG

    lovetox: have a look at MMS.

  1374. lovetox

    nobody used that ^^

  1375. Ge0rG

    lovetox: my father-in-law used that, before I gave him ChatSecure. At least MMS was working.

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  1378. Ge0rG

    besides, telcos will go a long way to protect their revenue model. One of the reasons Windows Phone failed was that telcos feared it would come bundled with Skype

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  1388. ralphm

    RCS is much much older than 2012.

  1389. Ge0rG

    ralphm: but that's when it emerged to the general public and made everybody realize how big it's going to fail.

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  1395. ralphm

    I.e. it builds on IMS, which started in 1999 or so.

  1396. ralphm

    Yeah, I can only hope that with Google touching it, it will be truly dead soon.

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  1413. Andrew Nenakhov

    Average Google service lifespan is like 1400 days... So this RCS will likely be over by 2023

  1414. Andrew Nenakhov

    Source for lifespan: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/22/google-keep-services-closed

  1415. ralphm

    I don't Allo is that old

  1416. ralphm


  1417. Andrew Nenakhov

    For some it happens sooner. That's why it is called "average" )

  1418. Andrew Nenakhov

    Allo is 3 years old I guess

  1419. dwd

    21 Septmeber 2016, apparently.

  1420. dwd

    So 18 months.

  1421. Andrew Nenakhov

    Actually reading that link I remembered how much I liked Google Wave

  1422. ralphm

    Hah, Google Wave's federation effort was one guy.

  1423. Andrew Nenakhov

    Oh, I recalled that it was announced in spring event, but not in 2015 but in 2016, so it's closer to 2 years

  1424. ralphm

    (and yes, I have the t-shirt)

  1425. dwd

    Andrew Nenakhov, Announced in Google I/O 2016 (Spring?) but not launched for months afterward.

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  1429. Andrew Nenakhov

    Well, if you have 5 (6?) competing messaging services, it's quite probable they'll have shorter than average lifespan 😂

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  1509. ralphm

    Too bad I was busy at work today, but I love debunking comments on HN. Like this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882916

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  1515. moparisthebest

    "it’s driven by the same companies that charge the equivalent of $1000+/mb for sms delivery" ha I never thought about it like that, excellent

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  1520. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I'm not sure which part of your comment is "debunking"

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  1522. ralphm

    Well, the argument that XMPP is too old

  1523. Dave Cridland has left

  1524. ralphm

    But I guess my other comment is better

  1525. Ge0rG

    ralphm: that was not an argument the OP made. They only wrote that XMPP failed, without a root cause analysis

  1526. Dave Cridland has left

  1527. ralphm

    It was implied, I think, but sure

  1528. Ge0rG

    ralphm: I'm not sure about that.

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  1531. ralphm

    People on HN generally use two arguments against XMPP: 1) too old, 2) xml/battery

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  1533. Zash

    You forget those who go "lalalallaala, matrix is the best!!"

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  1536. Zash

    and "matrix is winning because bridges"

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  1538. pep.

    daniel, seems interesting!

  1539. Dave Cridland has left

  1540. Ge0rG

    Zash: we need a matrix bridge to rule them all

  1541. pep.

    (goulash programming thing)

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