XSF Discussion - 2018-04-20

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ralphm 07:30:52
Hmm, just noticed that Conversations doesn't (also) send XEP-0080 payload when sharing location.
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daniel 07:39:35
ralphm: is there any client that will do something reasonable if I just stick a geoloc element in the message (w/o the pubsub overhead)?
daniel 07:39:44
Assuming that this is what you are talking about
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ralphm 08:30:02
I'm not sure, to be honest, but it is something I'm suggesting being implemented in what we are doing.
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lovetox 12:50:46
are these not 2 different use cases
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lovetox 12:51:36
i always thought xep 80 is more of a, contantly sharing your location all the time
lovetox 12:52:05
conversations just shares the location at one point in time with a geo uri or not?
jonasw 12:52:15
mmm, I know of a protocol which suggested inclusion of XEP-0080 payload into messages. Ge0rG?
jonasw 12:52:19
(it’ll haunt you forever!)
lovetox 12:52:32
either way gajim supports xep 80 🙂
MattJ 12:52:48
lovetox, the XEP provides two parts: the data format (<geoloc>), and a recommended transport (PEP)
MattJ 12:53:14
The point is, any time you need to encode location in XMPP, the same data format/code can be reused without inventing something new
lovetox 12:53:24
ah i see
lovetox 12:53:32
so you want to use the geoloc element with another transport
jonasw 12:53:35
extensible XML is extensible
lovetox 12:53:36
in this case a message
MattJ 12:53:46
So yeah, if you want to send a specific location once over XMPP, but don't want to publish it to all your contacts, I think including it directly in a message is quite sensible
Zash 12:54:28
So, the thing, it's just sending <body>geo:x,y</body> right?
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lovetox 12:55:29
yeah and this is useable by the user even if the client doesnt support locations
lovetox 12:55:44
i think firefox even supports this uri scheme
Zash 12:56:24
geo:0,0
Ge0rG 12:56:58
jonasw: no!
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Ge0rG 12:57:10
jonasw: or I'll PR xmpp-echo-bot into xmpp.org/clients!
MattJ 12:57:11
Right, so like OOB (which is similar - it defines a data format as well as different ways of using it, iq vs. message), the <body> may be used only as a fallback
Zash 12:57:35
Having a graceful fallback in <body> is sane.
Zash 12:57:39
Having *only* the body is meh.
MattJ 12:57:42
However like OOB, we have the problem where it's not known if the <body> is just a fallback, or also includes some information to which the data payload is an addition
MattJ 12:58:37
e.g. <body>Don't come to this place, here be dragons</body><geoloc>...</geoloc>
MattJ 12:59:12
Client sees <geoloc> and says "I know this! They sent a location, so I'll show that instead of the <body>..."
Zash 12:59:17
There used to be thing magical awesome feature negotiation, but we've killed that, thanks to Carbons and MAM
MattJ 12:59:35
Zash, that never worked with offline messages either
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lovetox 13:00:10
MattJ we can decide
lovetox 13:00:25
the dataformat has a description attr
MattJ 13:00:55
Right, that's currently a problem I have with OOB
lovetox 13:01:17
so if we have description ignore body
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MattJ 13:01:36
That means I can't use OOB like an "attachment" feature
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MattJ 13:03:03
<body>Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier</body><oob><desc>Word document</desc>...</oob>
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daniel 13:03:55
Fwiw Conversations will only use the oob tag if it's either the same as the body or if the body doesn't exists
MattJ 13:04:01
I can think of a protcol solution, not sure whether it's actually a good idea or not
daniel 13:04:21
I'm not defending oob as the best thing ever invented
MattJ 13:04:36
<hide-body-if-you-understand>jabber:x:oob</hide-body-if-you-understand>
daniel 13:04:41
But the word document situation wouldn't happen
Zash 13:05:01
> Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier Where, I don't see it?
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MattJ 13:05:17
Zash, fair point :)
Zash 13:05:30
Nice things be unavailable.
MattJ 13:05:48
So for backward compatibility, we have to always use <body> as a fallback
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MattJ 13:06:17
so <desc> suddenly makes sense as a non-fallback piece of text
lovetox 13:06:32
yes if desc is there hide body
Zash 13:06:35
If only anyone actually used taht
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Zash 13:07:38
I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today: body := $desc \n $uri oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc }
MattJ 13:07:55
Zash, yes, pretty much what I'm proposing
MattJ 13:09:28
The current Conversations logic makes sense, to defend against any clients which may be treating <body> *not* as a fallback
MattJ 13:09:50
But I'm not sure whether any clients actually do that today
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MattJ 13:10:33
So we just need to document that oob always overrides body, and the accompanying text, if any, is in <desc>
daniel 13:10:42
> I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today: > body := $desc \n $uri > oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc } I can live with that.
daniel 13:10:54
For now it won't break Conversations.
daniel 13:11:04
And in the future I might implement support
MattJ 13:11:07
daniel, iirc you said the text wouldn't be displayed in any case?
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MattJ 13:11:28
Oh right, it would ignore the oob for now
daniel 13:11:30
Well by not break I mean Conversations would display the fallback
MattJ 13:11:35
Got it
Ge0rG 13:11:54
it would break inline image display ;)
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MattJ 13:12:31
Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :)
Kev 13:12:59
Does 66 have anything over SIMS?
MattJ 13:13:02
But even the example there is using it in an attachment-style
MattJ 13:13:21
Kev, yes, things support it already :)
Zash 13:13:54
Small, simple, self-contained.
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MattJ 13:15:24
I think it's simple because it's always just a URL
MattJ 13:15:46
SIMS suddenly pulls in Jingle
MattJ 13:16:25
and that's quite a commitment for a client that simply wants to display an image
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Kev 13:17:01
SIMS doesn't need to be Jingle though, does it? It can just do URLs?
Kev 13:17:07
Or I've completely misunderstood.
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Zash 13:17:26
But why would you if you're just sending URLs anyways?
Zash 13:17:35
(SIMS has more things that are useful tho)
Kev 13:17:37
Because you usually want metadata with it.
MattJ 13:18:01
Kev, "a client supporting this XEP MUST implement Jingle File Transfer (XEP-0234) [2] and HTTP File Upload (XEP-0363) [4]."
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MattJ 13:18:56
which is weird, because even to just receive and display images from others, I MUST implement a XEP related to uploading?
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Kev 13:20:03
Yeah, either it's useful just for fetching stuff, in which case it shouldn't have that, or we should move all the metadata stuff into references itself.
Zash 13:20:36
Maybe separate requirements for sending and receiving?
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MattJ 13:20:52
and rather than forcing client to implement Jingle, there should be a fallback as we have with the OOB solution
MattJ 13:21:07
So I think that answers why OOB > SIMS right now (but may not always be)
Ge0rG 13:21:42
all the refererence / link XEPs suck in different ways.
MattJ 13:21:50
The sad truth is, anybody can click a URL, but you can't count on all of a user's clients supporting Jingle
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Kev 13:22:23
Are you interested in just a clickable URL though?
MattJ 13:22:26
(I don't think any of mine do, and one is a console client that I use via ssh... what is it supposed to do with a Jingle reference?)
MattJ 13:23:05
No, I'm saying that a clickable URL is the common fallback that works absolutely everywhere
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lovetox 13:24:48
xep 80 links to a invalid site
lovetox 13:24:50
https://xmpp.org/extensions/gps_datum.html
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Andrew Nenakhov 13:25:12
> Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :) Btw I don't see why would anyone use 066 over 221 for inline image display
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MattJ 13:26:30
Heh
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daniel 13:52:34
by the way if any server operators are interested in having their uptime tracked you can add your own server with this form: https://status.conversations.im/add/
daniel 13:52:57
you can of course also just self host the thing. but apparantly some people don't want to
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jonasw 13:56:00
GDPR meeting in 5? pep., Ge0rG, winfried
pep. 13:56:19
oh right
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Ge0rG 13:59:22
🤦
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winfried 14:00:08
Give me one minute
jonasw 14:00:28
Ge0rG, why?
Zash 14:00:38
> 15:56:00 jonasw> GDPR meeting in 5? You have until 16:01
Ge0rG 14:00:59
jonasw: it was just an ACK of my presence
jonasw 14:01:13
weird way to ack
pep. 14:01:47
!
pep. 14:02:06
I got beverage and snack, all the good stuff
Ge0rG 14:02:15
🙋
Maranda 14:02:19
Ge0rG's famous ack
Ge0rG 14:02:19
better now?
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Maranda 14:02:44
Well I imagine a headdesk would be stranger for a ACK
jonasw 14:02:44
Ge0rG, yes
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winfried acks his presence 14:04:59
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pep. 14:05:32
!
Ge0rG 14:05:42
Are we there yet?
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jonasw 14:06:12
.
winfried 14:06:20
all present
winfried *bangs* the gavel 14:06:33
winfried 14:06:45
pep.: thanks for your logs!
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pep. 14:07:32
I was a bit lost with the two last meetings, not sure in what category to put what we talked about
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winfried 14:07:48
we have to do the spamdetection and can then move on to the consequences
jonasw 14:07:59
I’d like to insert a point: do we want to send a posting to the gdpr list set up by the debian folks?
winfried 14:08:09
pep.: When I have a bit time to spare, I wil check
pep. 14:08:11
yes I would like to
Ge0rG 14:08:13
jonasw: 👍
pep. 14:08:16
jonasw, can do
winfried 14:08:24
good plan
Ge0rG 14:08:31
tiden up the wiki a bit after this meeting and send it out?
pep. 14:08:42
Ok
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winfried 14:08:58
that is that earth.li list?
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winfried 14:09:24
Ge0rG: good plan, maybe add a summary so far?
pep. 14:09:26
yes
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pep. 14:09:32
winfried, boarf
winfried 14:09:38
LOL
pep. 14:09:43
It's still a wip
winfried 14:09:48
it is
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winfried 14:10:05
do we need any reflection on the process before diving into it?
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winfried 14:11:15
I guess not... ;-)
winfried 14:12:24
last point of 1.1d before diving into 1.1e: spam detection. What are we doing there and is that justified
pep. 14:12:59
If we want to provide a proper service to other users of the network I guess we have to yes
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Ge0rG 14:13:41
winfried: what I am doing: automatic analysis of all messages for matching one of two sets of certain (super secret) criteria.
winfried 14:13:42
pep.: I was referring to legal grounds for processing, but you are right, that doesn't justify it
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Ge0rG 14:14:00
messages that match criterion 1: manual analysis of body text (this might be really evil, dunno)
Ge0rG 14:14:10
messages that match criterion 2: automatic blocking of the sender JID forever.
pep. 14:14:38
hmm, wouldn't any manual analysis directly fall under 9.1?
winfried 14:14:41
Ge0rG: fixed criteria or self-learning/statistical ones?
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jonasw 14:14:55
Ge0rG, all of that falls apart once spammers start to OMEMO things, right?
jonasw 14:15:02
or at least the body text analysis
Ge0rG 14:15:09
winfried: fixed criteria. The manual analysis is only used to improve the criteria-2 list
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pep. 14:15:26
Ah, you're talking about non-bayes analysis or similar I guess
Ge0rG 14:15:26
jonasw: yes. I'm eagerly awaiting that day so I can start blocking OMEMO
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winfried has a head crunching regulations and articles 14:15:52
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Ge0rG 14:16:09
*crunch*
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pep. 14:16:21
hmm, the e2ee thing seems annoying yeah
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winfried 14:16:46
pep.: e2ee is a security risk!
pep. 14:16:50
:)
pep. 14:16:55
Ge0rG, I'd say that's a bit involved for spammers no?
jonasw 14:16:57
manually reading the body seems fairly evil though
pep. 14:16:59
Anyway..
winfried 14:17:05
lets brainstorm a bit
pep. 14:17:05
jonasw, agreed
moparisthebest 14:17:15
it's ok, the spammers aren't going to sue him for it
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winfried 14:17:25
abuse detection/prevention is a ground for processing
pep. 14:17:26
moparisthebest, might not be spammers he's reading messages of
daniel 14:17:27
I think the target audience of their spam hates omemo and uses pidgin or other crappy messengers. So I honestly wouldn't expect them to start using omemo any time soon
jonasw 14:17:33
winfried, in any case: spam filtering is currently not standardised and I’m not sure if we need to cover it within the XSF
winfried 14:17:40
as long as it proportionate
jonasw 14:18:01
at least not at this point in time
winfried 14:18:18
so reading every message is not proportionate, reading messages already marked as spam is
pep. 14:18:29
winfried, is it?
pep. 14:18:42
is it written in your bible
jonasw 14:18:43
winfried, depends on how you mark as spam
moparisthebest 14:18:45
point is, no one could tell if you did or not, so it's legal!
pep. 14:18:55
moparisthebest, shush
jonasw 14:18:59
if you learn on spam based on viagra and penis enlargement, your spam detection could easily trip off at 9.1-relveant non-spam content.
moparisthebest 14:19:06
what this: Ge0rG, do you ever manually read messages? (answer no)
winfried 14:19:10
pep.: well, that is one of the things I was doubting about
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winfried 14:19:37
but here in the netherlands 'escalating fraud prevention' is accepted right now
pep. 14:19:43
jonasw, your spam filter could also be "true"
winfried 14:19:48
(though a bit controversial)
winfried 14:20:26
pep., jonasw very true
jonasw 14:20:44
I motion that we skip spam detection of any kind for now, because of lack of standardisation. Just leave a note that any type of body analysis might go into 9.1 realm.
winfried 14:20:57
in the escalating things, metadata is the first step, then automated detection then manual analysis
Ge0rG 14:21:15
moparisthebest: yes I do.
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winfried 14:22:26
moparisthebest: it is justifyable if it is proportionate and if it can't be done in an other way
moparisthebest 14:22:39
oops, you messed up Ge0rG :P
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winfried 14:23:33
jonasw: I think we need to give some warnings about it, but we can't fully handle it indeed
winfried 14:24:14
so +1 to the motion of jonasw
pep. 14:24:33
how the hell does google justify that
pep. 14:24:53
yeah I also want to leave this aside for now
winfried 14:25:25
pep.: Google just lets you sign that they own your soul and your communications
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winfried 14:25:57
Ge0rG: ?
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winfried 14:28:28
is it me, or did everybody leave for a friday afternoon beer on a terrace?
Zash 14:28:53
Good idea!
pep. 14:29:16
I was also planning something similar
pep. 14:29:27
~~it's sunny in the England, joy!~~ ✎
pep. 14:29:32
it's sunny in England, joy! ✏
Ge0rG 14:29:34
winfried: what was your question, sorry?
Zash 14:29:39
It was sunny here yesterday.
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Zash 14:29:44
Now it's grey meh.
moparisthebest 14:29:49
kinda on topic: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/30509/how-are-gdpr-fines-actually-enforced-for-us-companies-with-no-physical-presence
winfried 14:30:03
do you ack leaving spam detection with a note about possible problems with it?
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moparisthebest 14:30:18
"The GDPR requires non-EU entities handling EU data to appoint a representative in the EU, and this representative will be able receive the fines or other penalties relating to regulation compliance." ;; haha EU lawmakers really are insane aren't they?
Ge0rG 14:30:21
winfried: yes, ack
winfried 14:30:32
Q1.1e!
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pep. 14:31:00
winfried, what do you want to put in 1.1e?
Ge0rG 14:31:18
pep.: I'd say specific action items for people involved (i.e. server operators)
pep. 14:31:21
State what fine if you don't do x or y?
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winfried 14:31:49
up to now we found several limits, things to consider regarding the processing we are doing
pep. 14:31:53
istr winfried also talking about drafting a policy or sth
Ge0rG 14:31:56
pep.: the fines aren't clear yet. The maximum fines are well-defined, but there are zero rulings yet
winfried 14:32:48
I think we should no look at what we must do to fix those issues
Ge0rG 14:33:13
winfried: {not,now}?
winfried 14:33:13
like s2s to a server that is violating privacy
winfried 14:33:22
now
pep. 14:33:45
winfried, I guess you can blacklist once you become aware
Ge0rG 14:34:02
but how do you become aware?
winfried 14:34:07
shall we first make a list of issues to consider?
Ge0rG 14:34:11
I don't think it's useful in any way to block s2s
pep. 14:34:12
Ge0rG, that'S the trick
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Ge0rG 14:34:32
We need to ensure that the users are informed about the possibility of their data leaving the EU
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winfried 14:36:07
OK, I opened pandora's box of s2s
winfried 14:36:22
lets empty it...
winfried 14:36:52
issue a: can it be justified?
winfried 14:37:02
(to do s2s)
pep. 14:37:02
what can?
pep. 14:37:16
ah, we said article 6 and 49.1b
pep. 14:37:28
6.1b and 49.1b ?
winfried 14:38:01
pep.: exactly, but that assumes no more processing then is needed for the task
pep. 14:38:20
We can also ask for consent with 6.1a and 49.1a iirc
winfried 14:38:21
so how do we assure there is no more processing then needed for the task?
pep. 14:38:48
For the part that's not covered by implicit consent
winfried 14:39:10
pep.: yes
winfried 14:39:26
but how do we know we need extra consent?
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pep. 14:39:51
all we haven't covered in 1.1c/d I would say?
winfried 14:39:53
I guess we can't enforce this by technical means, it is a legal issue
moparisthebest 14:40:00
does an incoming message to your user make it your user's message? in which case you already have their consent?
winfried 14:40:09
moparisthebest: no
moparisthebest 14:40:21
why not?
pep. 14:40:33
winfried, did we not say yes to this question?
winfried 14:40:34
moparisthebest: it still contains pii from the sender
pep. 14:40:50
right, assuming no further analysis of the message
moparisthebest 14:40:51
that they willingly sent to your user, put completely under your user's control?
moparisthebest 14:41:03
which they granted consent to you for, maybe?
winfried 14:41:19
pep.: on storage (MAM) of the conversation not on the processing (relaying) the message
winfried 14:42:26
moparisthebest: by willingly sending it to a user, the sender agrees to the processing of sending the message, the receiver is no part of that
moparisthebest 14:43:13
does anyone actually know that are is everyone just guessing until it's tested in court?
pep. 14:43:14
hmm
MattJ 14:43:32
moparisthebest, nobody knows
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winfried 14:43:56
moparisthebest: there are some wp29 guidelines, they have a legal status
moparisthebest 14:43:57
I'd think they'd all be equally arguable in court
jonasw 14:44:00
winfried, didn’t we establish last time the opposite of that?
jonasw 14:44:10
like, received message == recipients content => covered by recipients consent.
winfried 14:44:27
jonasw: hmmm... refresh my mind (it has a friday explosion)
moparisthebest 14:44:52
again, what are the email providers doing? that's really all we need to know, numerous email providers are far bigger and have far more money than the entire XMPP network
jonasw 14:44:57
winfried, I’m semi-afk myself, but I think we figured that due to the fact that the recipients server has consent from the recipient for processing, it’s fine because the sender gave the recipient the data.
jonasw 14:45:04
moparisthebest, nobody knows!
winfried 14:45:05
jonasw: I thought that was only in the context of MAM at the receiver server
jonasw 14:45:14
moparisthebest, they won’t tell you because it threatens them legally
pep. 14:45:15
moparisthebest, https://www.earth.li/pipermail/gdpr-discuss/2018-April/000013.html a quite I liked in there, "Of course, anyone's reading might contrast quite a bit from how lawyers will over time engineer courts into interpreting it"
jonasw 14:45:20
winfried, okay, what are we talking about if not about MAM?
moparisthebest 14:45:31
jonasw, than that's what we should find out rather than trying to make up stuff on our own?
winfried 14:45:56
jonasw: relaying the message, logging it, spam filtering it
jonasw 14:46:23
moparisthebest, except that they won’t tell us
winfried 14:46:28
using it for profiling for targeted advertisement
jonasw 14:46:28
because it threatens them legally to do so, I guess
pep. 14:46:56
moparisthebest, also business opportunities, so insentive not to reveal how they do it
jonasw 14:48:33
that, too
jonasw 14:48:45
but I guess they’re more afraid of them actually not being compliant
pep. 14:48:52
possibly
moparisthebest 14:49:13
but there are plenty of more open ones that would too?
moparisthebest 14:49:19
presumably
winfried 14:49:20
moparisthebest: there are many things unclear on the gdpr, but many thing things *are*, we can anticipate on that
jonasw 14:49:28
hm, we could ask posteo
winfried 14:50:24
moparisthebest: and many companies try to ignore the obvious, for example because it doesn't fit in their business model
moparisthebest 14:50:25
it's not great but, seems like good odds an email provider will be targetted way before any xmpp provider, could just wait and see...
pep. 14:50:52
moparisthebest, not sure that's a good option
moparisthebest 14:51:25
the other option is for non-lawyers to try to interpret lawyer-speak, and guess what a lawyer and judge will decide
pep. 14:51:28
So.. we didn't get really far today
moparisthebest 14:51:29
also, not a good option
winfried 14:52:08
moparisthebest: I don't want to tell my customers "we are neatly ignoring the law, because we hope somebody else gets caught first"
moparisthebest 14:52:29
whether you try really hard to comply or not, that's still essentially the position you are in
winfried 14:52:40
pep.: yes, I am a bit frustrated too...
pep. 14:52:57
moparisthebest, if this doesn't interest you, fine
winfried 14:53:32
moparisthebest: it is not that black-white, many things *are* clear
jonasw 14:53:34
sorry, I was more distracted than I expected during this timeslot :/
moparisthebest 14:53:41
don't get me wrong you guys are doing good work and finding the baseline of generally what looks to be compliant
moparisthebest 14:53:56
but none of you are lawyers, and even if you were, they can be wrong too
moparisthebest 14:54:11
it's a terrible situation, I'm just glad I'm not in the EU
pep. 14:54:12
moparisthebest, yes everybody can be wrong and we'll see on the first court cases
pep. 14:54:22
In the meantime, we kind of have to do something about it anyway
Holger 14:54:32
That's true for basically any law that applies to whatever you do.
pep. 14:54:36
yes
Ge0rG 14:54:46
moparisthebest: the good thing is that if you show to the court that you clearly did your best to follow the rules, your probability of ending up in jail sinks
MattJ 14:55:14
Obligatory link to http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 if you haven't read it, on the subject of law and computing
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moparisthebest 14:55:18
my only concern pep. is you overanalyze something and end up crippling federation or something that is useful
pep. 14:56:00
moparisthebest, we're only giving guidelines, and we welcome anybody to give input, or even bring lawyers to the dicussion if possible
pep. 14:56:27
moparisthebest, also as Ge0rG said
moparisthebest 14:56:44
yea but if the guidelines end up being 'disable federation except on an opt-in manual basis' that ruins everything
SamWhited 14:56:54
FYI, there's a bit of XMPP discussion in this Google Allo/SMS thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882539
winfried 14:56:55
moparisthebest: I think we are in matter of fact analyzing how far we can go with federation without running into big problems
pep. 14:56:58
that is not where we're headed no
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pep. 14:58:25
Shall we plan next
winfried 14:59:09
yes... I will try to make a analysis/summary of the discussion so far and the issues to tackle before it
pep. 14:59:14
I can't do Wed and (Fri morning)
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pep. 14:59:37
Tue 12:30 CEST as before?
jonasw 14:59:45
pep., that would work for me
winfried 15:00:05
Tue I am stuck
pep. 15:00:06
winfried, yes that'd be nice to know where we're at
pep. 15:00:13
Mon maybe?
winfried 15:00:21
mon wfm
pep. 15:00:34
Mon 1230 CEST
winfried 15:00:52
wfm
pep. 15:00:57
jonasw, Ge0rG
jonasw 15:01:03
pep., can do
Ge0rG 15:02:06
Mon and Tue should both work
pep. 15:02:15
Ok!
pep. 15:02:22
Mon 1230 CEST it is
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pep. 15:02:26
*bang*
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Ge0rG 15:02:35
pep.: thanks for chairing! ;)
pep. 15:02:39
haha
Ge0rG 15:02:48
thanks to winfried too, obviously
Ge0rG 15:03:00
Sorry I was semi-AFK, had two important and unscheduled customer calls :(
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winfried 15:03:49
Ge0rG: I noticed something like that already, can happen
jonasw 15:04:15
thanks all
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pep. 15:11:00
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882862 "an entirely over-the-top service that everyone could use, on any platform, without the consent, extra billing or buggy implementation of their carrier.", I guess they're missing the point, you still get the consent (in their meaning of the word) of WhatsApp to send your messages.
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moparisthebest 15:25:18
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/help ha lawyers eyeing GDPR stuff
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lovetox 15:25:59
The Last Call ends on 2017-12-12
lovetox 15:26:05
says xep 363
lovetox 15:26:21
so 4 months later what happens now?
MattJ 15:28:48
I last see an email from Dave Cridland saying: "Re-reading this and other feedback, I'm going to push back on moving this to Draft until substantial improvements are done to Security Considerations in particular, and normative language use in general."
MattJ 15:29:16
There has been an update to the XEP since then however
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SamWhited 15:30:54
It might be time for the editors to reissue the LC on that
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daniel 15:32:59
I'll do one tiny update. Give me second
lovetox 15:34:11
does the xsf have tool to track these things?
lovetox 15:34:31
there are probably 100 xeps in different states that have deadlines
lovetox 15:35:15
my observation is that these dates are not actually tracked, so the deadlines mean nothing
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lovetox 15:36:27
i dont know what the correct process is, but a xep where the LC ended and it was voted to not advance, should be moved back to experimental or something
jonasw 15:36:38
lovetox, seems legit
jonasw 15:36:41
editor’s bsy though
lovetox 15:36:45
and not kept in this LC ended, but we have to search the mailinglist what actually happend -state
Kev 15:36:50
As with all things, feel free to help do something about it :)
lovetox 15:37:31
i just did, its not meant as whining, i deal with this at work everyday, i asked if you have a tool to track these deadlines?
Kev 15:37:57
Not beyond basic things like popping it in Trello (unless jonasw tells me we've got something better I'm not aware of).
Kev 15:38:28
We could, in principle, scrape the dates out of the XEPs automatically, but I don't believe we have anything currently to do that.
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Zash 15:39:33
`grep`
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lovetox 15:41:02
is there any automatic state changes happening?
lovetox 15:41:26
like triggered by something, and executed by the server without the editor doing something?
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lovetox 15:42:14
or does every state change need a manual triggering by the editor?
Kev 15:42:15
State changes are all manual (which is right, I think).
Kev 15:42:34
Sending emails is also manual, which isn't right - that bit's nearly automated but not quite finished.
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lovetox 15:43:48
so if every state change is manual, then a simple excel (or whatever you use on linux) list with the 400 xeps and there current status would be sufficient
lovetox 15:43:58
if its on the server and everyone has access to
lovetox 15:44:21
before council meeting, look at the list, filter state X look at deadline, and bring to vote
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lovetox 15:45:13
its not really elaborate solution, but i think thats sufficient for the task
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MattJ 15:45:59
I don't think the spreadsheet part is even necessary
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Kev 15:46:21
I don't think that helps in this particular case, though, which was that it was blocked pending changes, and either the changes didn't happen, or it wasn't clear that they had.
lovetox 15:47:01
the problem is, nobody looked if they happend
lovetox 15:47:07
because it was not on the agenda anymore
lovetox 15:47:16
which it would have been if there was a list with all LC xeps
lovetox 15:47:31
because then it would be easy to look at all LC every council meeting
lovetox 15:48:01
and im not sure what you mean by "blocked"
lovetox 15:48:11
if LC ended, and you block it, then it cant be in LC anymore
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lovetox 15:49:39
or maybe thats the problem, that its not usual to set the xep back to experimantal
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MattJ 15:50:41
I feel almost like we need some tests for the xeps repo to highlight inconsistencies
Zash 15:50:43
`xeps$ xpath -e /xep/header/lastcall xep-0???.xml`
Kev 15:51:13
lovetox: Because it shouldn't go back to Experimental really. According to our process it should be rejected.
Kev 15:51:19
Which is obviously not right.
Kev 15:51:37
So just leaving it in Proposed is what tends to happen.
lovetox 15:53:09
your process gives you only Accepted or Rejected
lovetox 15:53:13
?
lovetox 15:53:19
after a LC
lovetox 15:53:51
this seems not good, maybe add that it can be set back to experimental if the xep in gerneral is useful, but lacks some things
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Dave Cridland 15:58:12
Yeah, we should allow popping things back to Experimental.
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Dave Cridland 15:58:51
Although possibly the right thing to do is pop them into Rejected, but allow Rejected XEPs to be pulled back to Experimental, like Deferred ones.
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Dave Cridland 15:59:37
(The difference being that if Council has rejected it, and nobody does anythign further, it should probably stay rejected and not automatically go back to Experimental)
Ge0rG 15:59:53
Dave Cridland: that sounds like the perfect recipe for offending authors.
Kev 16:00:02
I'm not sure that's true (Dave)
Kev 16:00:15
It seems that an abandoned LC XEP is much like an abandoned Experimental XEP.
Dave Cridland 16:00:27
Kev, So Deferred?
Kev 16:00:31
And letting them both be Experimental at the time of last action, and defer naturally seems sane to me.
ralphm 16:00:59
Are we talking about the Proposed state?
Ge0rG 16:01:00
Deferred sounds better
Kev 16:01:33
ralphm: Yes.
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lovetox 16:01:49
you dont want to set it to a state where devs are scared to implement it, only because one council member thought some minor thing has to be adjusted
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Kev 16:01:58
So an E with 5 months before Def goes to LC, gets -1, it then goes back to E for another 5 until it goes Def.
lovetox 16:02:01
so Rejected sounds bad
Kev 16:02:02
Or something.
Kev 16:02:11
lovetox: Indeed.
lovetox 16:02:27
Yes Kev your proposal sounds sane
ralphm 16:02:45
Rejected would be the appropriate state if the author is unwilling to change it based on said council members' comments.
Kev 16:03:05
ralphm: I don't think so based purely on that criterion.
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ralphm 16:03:17
I am ok with an edge Rejected->Experimental
lovetox 16:03:20
yes of course, the case we talk currently is, nobody had time to look at things, or forgot but the xep is a good xep 🙂
Kev 16:03:21
Because if it's a worthwhile XEP with an intransigent author, the right thing is to assign a new author.
Kev 16:03:36
Not to kill the XEP.
ralphm 16:03:54
Kev: allowing Rejected->Experimental would enable just that, no?
Kev 16:04:03
ralphm: Pointlessly, IMHO.
lovetox 16:04:24
Rejected should be an end state
lovetox 16:04:28
in my opinion
Kev 16:04:30
I think allowing LC to end in any of Draft, Rejected, Experimental would be good to me.
ralphm 16:04:31
Somebody wants to pick up the Rejected XEP, does the work, suggests going back to Experimental.
Kev 16:04:39
And leaving it to Council to decide which.
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ralphm 16:04:49
Sure
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lovetox 16:05:02
so in this case now with httpupload
ralphm 16:05:08
But then you have to define how a vote in Council causes which transition
lovetox 16:05:16
i message the editor, saying LC has ended, no changes on the xep
lovetox 16:05:34
then he has to set it to rejected
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lovetox 16:05:44
10 minutes later daniel messages: oh i make the change i forgot
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lovetox 16:05:54
then he has to put it again into experimental..
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ralphm 16:06:30
lovetox: in the current process, only Council can make it go to Rejected to begin with, after a vote.
lovetox 16:07:02
good, so council should decide
ralphm 16:07:15
So it is Experimental -> Proposed -[vote]-> Rejected/Draft
lovetox 16:07:16
experimental because author was reached and promises to do something
lovetox 16:07:23
or rejected, we cant reach anyone
lovetox 16:07:51
i feel there is no need for a hard state machine, LC -> Rejected -> experimental
lovetox 16:08:19
although i dont care in the end, but this probably generates work for the editor
lovetox 16:08:24
and has no real gain
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lovetox 16:08:42
council can determine if its worth to go from LC -> Experimantal
ralphm 16:08:57
If a modification to XEP-0001 is proposed, including how voting in Council works with three possible outcomes, I'd of course be happy to entertain that proposal in an upcoming Board meeting/
MattJ 16:09:18
I'm not sure LC should be an explicit state, I think that's the problem here
Dave Cridland 16:09:22
lovetox, The benefit of a hard state machine is that people are slightly less likely to scream about abuse of power.
Ge0rG 16:09:23
It's great to have a process to change the process.
Kev 16:09:43
MattJ: That may well be.
lovetox 16:10:00
Dave Cridland, hm yes didnt saw it from this point of vie
Ge0rG 16:10:05
Dave Cridland: I'm pretty sure if there is a Collusion of Council, we can figure out a way to formally follow the process to achieve any desired abuse of power.
Ge0rG & 16:10:15
lovetox 16:10:35
also would it be a abuse of power if the council votes on the state?
lovetox 16:10:49
i think not
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Kev 16:12:21
If I was proposing wording to xep1, I would go with a slightly more formal: When LC expires, Council shall vote on advancement to Draft. If this vote fails Council shall then vote on Rejection. If this vote also fails, the XEP shall return to a state of Experimental (and shall later be deferred after the normal period after the substantive modification).
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ralphm 16:32:23
I'd +1 that
ralphm 16:32:41
So please send a request to that end to Board
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ralphm 16:33:51
I think it would be useful, though, to actually record objections in the Changelog. We haven't done this, before, but it might be useful to see the history if progressing failed at some point.
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Ge0rG 16:37:21
+1 to that
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Maranda 💕 muc favicons. 17:16:32
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Maranda 17:16:46
🤣
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ralphm 17:37:30
https://twitter.com/ralphm/status/987382007452889088?s=09
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ralphm 17:38:28
RCS? Come on.
Maranda 17:38:43
Apparently
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moparisthebest 17:40:20
difference being they couldn't charge xmpp servers for federation like they can with carriers I'm assuming
moparisthebest 17:40:44
what is this? google's 10th attempt at instant messaging? 20th? I've lost count
lovetox 17:41:00
~~and this one is obviously going to failk~~ ✎
lovetox 17:41:03
and this one is obviously going to fail ✏
moparisthebest 17:41:19
sure I mean why would anyone think the 20th time is the charm :)
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ralphm 17:47:34
moparisthebest I'm not sure if that's true, but it has little to do with Open
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moparisthebest 17:52:40
right it's not open at all, this RCS business
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Zash 17:53:54
Which RCS is this even?
moparisthebest 17:54:16
Zash, https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/19/google-changes-its-messaging-strategy-again-goodbye-to-allo-double-down-on-rcs/
Zash 17:54:23
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services ?
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MattJ 18:05:17
Yes
Ge0rG 18:06:17
RCS is the massive fail that happens when telcos try to grasp and monetize whatsapp
lovetox 18:06:44
i dont get it, its not anymore just about messaging
lovetox 18:06:58
this reads like all it does is send one message to a contact
moparisthebest 18:07:11
we should make bets how long this lasts before google abandons it
lovetox 18:07:24
i bet it doesnt even start
Ge0rG 18:07:31
"RCS could allow free chats across different networks on Android or other devices" except that it's operated by the telcos and billed by the message
moparisthebest 18:07:32
I give it maybe a year before they give up
moparisthebest 18:07:50
yea I agree lovetox I don't think it'll ever get off the ground, but I give it a year until they give up
moparisthebest 18:08:27
think of the poor telcos missing out on all those sweet per message fees! <- something no one has ever said except telco CEOs
Ge0rG 18:08:40
RCS was "introduced" in 2012 and nobody wanted it but the carriers. No idea who paid Google how much to get them behind it.
Ge0rG 18:09:18
But as it doesn't even fit Google's business strategy, I would counter-bet that this public announcement is all we are going to see of their involvment
lovetox 18:10:10
in most countrys sms are free anyway
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Ge0rG 18:10:24
Okay, there is _maybe_ one way for Google to align it with their strategy - by selling targeted RCS spam to companies
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Ge0rG 18:11:03
lovetox: SMS were free, then telcos discovered they can bill users per message and then it took over a decade to get decent flatrate offers
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lovetox 18:11:27
yeah i just mean, now why going back
Ge0rG 18:11:29
I've only switched to an SMS flat two months ago
lovetox 18:11:35
nobody will accept paying for a message
Ge0rG 18:11:40
lovetox: because RCS is a premium service
Ge0rG 18:11:44
lovetox: have a look at MMS.
lovetox 18:11:53
nobody used that ^^
Ge0rG 18:12:11
lovetox: my father-in-law used that, before I gave him ChatSecure. At least MMS was working.
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Ge0rG 18:15:03
besides, telcos will go a long way to protect their revenue model. One of the reasons Windows Phone failed was that telcos feared it would come bundled with Skype
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ralphm 18:35:01
RCS is much much older than 2012.
Ge0rG 18:37:21
ralphm: but that's when it emerged to the general public and made everybody realize how big it's going to fail.
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ralphm 18:44:03
I.e. it builds on IMS, which started in 1999 or so.
ralphm 18:44:46
Yeah, I can only hope that with Google touching it, it will be truly dead soon.
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Andrew Nenakhov 19:03:48
Average Google service lifespan is like 1400 days... So this RCS will likely be over by 2023
Andrew Nenakhov 19:04:05
Source for lifespan: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/22/google-keep-services-closed
ralphm 19:04:11
I don't Allo is that old
ralphm 19:04:31
(think)
Andrew Nenakhov 19:04:56
For some it happens sooner. That's why it is called "average" )
Andrew Nenakhov 19:05:11
Allo is 3 years old I guess
dwd 19:05:26
21 Septmeber 2016, apparently.
dwd 19:05:32
So 18 months.
Andrew Nenakhov 19:05:50
Actually reading that link I remembered how much I liked Google Wave
ralphm 19:07:01
Hah, Google Wave's federation effort was one guy.
Andrew Nenakhov 19:07:22
Oh, I recalled that it was announced in spring event, but not in 2015 but in 2016, so it's closer to 2 years
ralphm 19:07:44
(and yes, I have the t-shirt)
dwd 19:08:21
Andrew Nenakhov, Announced in Google I/O 2016 (Spring?) but not launched for months afterward.
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Andrew Nenakhov 19:10:20
Well, if you have 5 (6?) competing messaging services, it's quite probable they'll have shorter than average lifespan 😂
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ralphm 21:01:40
Too bad I was busy at work today, but I love debunking comments on HN. Like this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882916
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moparisthebest 21:02:46
"it’s driven by the same companies that charge the equivalent of $1000+/mb for sms delivery" ha I never thought about it like that, excellent
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Ge0rG 21:03:15
ralphm: I'm not sure which part of your comment is "debunking"
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ralphm 21:03:42
Well, the argument that XMPP is too old
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ralphm 21:03:59
But I guess my other comment is better
Ge0rG 21:04:07
ralphm: that was not an argument the OP made. They only wrote that XMPP failed, without a root cause analysis
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ralphm 21:04:49
It was implied, I think, but sure
Ge0rG 21:05:12
ralphm: I'm not sure about that.
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ralphm 21:06:23
People on HN generally use two arguments against XMPP: 1) too old, 2) xml/battery
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Zash 21:07:12
You forget those who go "lalalallaala, matrix is the best!!"
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Zash 21:08:51
and "matrix is winning because bridges"
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pep. 21:10:31
daniel, seems interesting!
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Ge0rG 21:10:49
Zash: we need a matrix bridge to rule them all
pep. 21:10:59
(goulash programming thing)
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