XSF Discussion - 2018-04-20

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  352. ralphm Hmm, just noticed that Conversations doesn't (also) send XEP-0080 payload when sharing location.
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  355. daniel ralphm: is there any client that will do something reasonable if I just stick a geoloc element in the message (w/o the pubsub overhead)?
  356. daniel Assuming that this is what you are talking about
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  391. ralphm I'm not sure, to be honest, but it is something I'm suggesting being implemented in what we are doing.
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  628. lovetox are these not 2 different use cases
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  630. lovetox i always thought xep 80 is more of a, contantly sharing your location all the time
  631. lovetox conversations just shares the location at one point in time with a geo uri or not?
  632. jonasw mmm, I know of a protocol which suggested inclusion of XEP-0080 payload into messages. Ge0rG?
  633. jonasw (it’ll haunt you forever!)
  634. lovetox either way gajim supports xep 80 🙂
  635. MattJ lovetox, the XEP provides two parts: the data format (<geoloc>), and a recommended transport (PEP)
  636. MattJ The point is, any time you need to encode location in XMPP, the same data format/code can be reused without inventing something new
  637. lovetox ah i see
  638. lovetox so you want to use the geoloc element with another transport
  639. jonasw extensible XML is extensible
  640. lovetox in this case a message
  641. MattJ So yeah, if you want to send a specific location once over XMPP, but don't want to publish it to all your contacts, I think including it directly in a message is quite sensible
  642. Zash So, the thing, it's just sending <body>geo:x,y</body> right?
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  644. lovetox yeah and this is useable by the user even if the client doesnt support locations
  645. lovetox i think firefox even supports this uri scheme
  646. Zash geo:0,0
  647. Ge0rG jonasw: no!
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  649. Ge0rG jonasw: or I'll PR xmpp-echo-bot into xmpp.org/clients!
  650. MattJ Right, so like OOB (which is similar - it defines a data format as well as different ways of using it, iq vs. message), the <body> may be used only as a fallback
  651. Zash Having a graceful fallback in <body> is sane.
  652. Zash Having *only* the body is meh.
  653. MattJ However like OOB, we have the problem where it's not known if the <body> is just a fallback, or also includes some information to which the data payload is an addition
  654. MattJ e.g. <body>Don't come to this place, here be dragons</body><geoloc>...</geoloc>
  655. MattJ Client sees <geoloc> and says "I know this! They sent a location, so I'll show that instead of the <body>..."
  656. Zash There used to be thing magical awesome feature negotiation, but we've killed that, thanks to Carbons and MAM
  657. MattJ Zash, that never worked with offline messages either
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  660. lovetox MattJ we can decide
  661. lovetox the dataformat has a description attr
  662. MattJ Right, that's currently a problem I have with OOB
  663. lovetox so if we have description ignore body
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  666. MattJ That means I can't use OOB like an "attachment" feature
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  670. MattJ <body>Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier</body><oob><desc>Word document</desc>...</oob>
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  672. daniel Fwiw Conversations will only use the oob tag if it's either the same as the body or if the body doesn't exists
  673. MattJ I can think of a protcol solution, not sure whether it's actually a good idea or not
  674. daniel I'm not defending oob as the best thing ever invented
  675. MattJ <hide-body-if-you-understand>jabber:x:oob</hide-body-if-you-understand>
  676. daniel But the word document situation wouldn't happen
  677. Zash > Here is that Word document containing the virus I received earlier Where, I don't see it?
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  680. MattJ Zash, fair point :)
  681. Zash Nice things be unavailable.
  682. MattJ So for backward compatibility, we have to always use <body> as a fallback
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  686. MattJ so <desc> suddenly makes sense as a non-fallback piece of text
  687. lovetox yes if desc is there hide body
  688. Zash If only anyone actually used taht
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  691. Zash I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today: body := $desc \n $uri oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc }
  692. MattJ Zash, yes, pretty much what I'm proposing
  693. MattJ The current Conversations logic makes sense, to defend against any clients which may be treating <body> *not* as a fallback
  694. MattJ But I'm not sure whether any clients actually do that today
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  696. MattJ So we just need to document that oob always overrides body, and the accompanying text, if any, is in <desc>
  697. daniel > I'd wanna have this, but it won't work today: > body := $desc \n $uri > oob := { uri = $uri, desc = $desc } I can live with that.
  698. daniel For now it won't break Conversations.
  699. daniel And in the future I might implement support
  700. MattJ daniel, iirc you said the text wouldn't be displayed in any case?
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  703. MattJ Oh right, it would ignore the oob for now
  704. daniel Well by not break I mean Conversations would display the fallback
  705. MattJ Got it
  706. Ge0rG it would break inline image display ;)
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  708. MattJ Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :)
  709. Kev Does 66 have anything over SIMS?
  710. MattJ But even the example there is using it in an attachment-style
  711. MattJ Kev, yes, things support it already :)
  712. Zash Small, simple, self-contained.
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  714. MattJ I think it's simple because it's always just a URL
  715. MattJ SIMS suddenly pulls in Jingle
  716. MattJ and that's quite a commitment for a client that simply wants to display an image
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  720. Kev SIMS doesn't need to be Jingle though, does it? It can just do URLs?
  721. Kev Or I've completely misunderstood.
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  723. Zash But why would you if you're just sending URLs anyways?
  724. Zash (SIMS has more things that are useful tho)
  725. Kev Because you usually want metadata with it.
  726. MattJ Kev, "a client supporting this XEP MUST implement Jingle File Transfer (XEP-0234) [2] and HTTP File Upload (XEP-0363) [4]."
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  730. MattJ which is weird, because even to just receive and display images from others, I MUST implement a XEP related to uploading?
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  732. Kev Yeah, either it's useful just for fetching stuff, in which case it shouldn't have that, or we should move all the metadata stuff into references itself.
  733. Zash Maybe separate requirements for sending and receiving?
  734. mrdoctorwho has left
  735. MattJ and rather than forcing client to implement Jingle, there should be a fallback as we have with the OOB solution
  736. MattJ So I think that answers why OOB > SIMS right now (but may not always be)
  737. Ge0rG all the refererence / link XEPs suck in different ways.
  738. MattJ The sad truth is, anybody can click a URL, but you can't count on all of a user's clients supporting Jingle
  739. vanitasvitae has left
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  741. Kev Are you interested in just a clickable URL though?
  742. MattJ (I don't think any of mine do, and one is a console client that I use via ssh... what is it supposed to do with a Jingle reference?)
  743. MattJ No, I'm saying that a clickable URL is the common fallback that works absolutely everywhere
  744. alexis has left
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  746. lovetox xep 80 links to a invalid site
  747. lovetox https://xmpp.org/extensions/gps_datum.html
  748. Dave Cridland has left
  749. Andrew Nenakhov > Luckily XEP-0066 is still Draft :) Btw I don't see why would anyone use 066 over 221 for inline image display
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  753. MattJ Heh
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  770. daniel by the way if any server operators are interested in having their uptime tracked you can add your own server with this form: https://status.conversations.im/add/
  771. daniel you can of course also just self host the thing. but apparantly some people don't want to
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  779. jonasw GDPR meeting in 5? pep., Ge0rG, winfried
  780. pep. oh right
  781. alexis has left
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  789. Ge0rG 🤦
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  793. winfried Give me one minute
  794. jonasw Ge0rG, why?
  795. Zash > 15:56:00 jonasw> GDPR meeting in 5? You have until 16:01
  796. Ge0rG jonasw: it was just an ACK of my presence
  797. jonasw weird way to ack
  798. pep. !
  799. pep. I got beverage and snack, all the good stuff
  800. Ge0rG 🙋
  801. Maranda Ge0rG's famous ack
  802. Ge0rG better now?
  803. alexis has left
  804. Maranda Well I imagine a headdesk would be stranger for a ACK
  805. jonasw Ge0rG, yes
  806. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  807. winfried acks his presence
  808. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  809. pep. !
  810. Ge0rG Are we there yet?
  811. Yagiza has left
  812. jonasw .
  813. winfried all present
  814. winfried *bangs* the gavel
  815. winfried pep.: thanks for your logs!
  816. dwd has left
  817. jere has joined
  818. pep. I was a bit lost with the two last meetings, not sure in what category to put what we talked about
  819. jere has joined
  820. winfried we have to do the spamdetection and can then move on to the consequences
  821. jonasw I’d like to insert a point: do we want to send a posting to the gdpr list set up by the debian folks?
  822. winfried pep.: When I have a bit time to spare, I wil check
  823. pep. yes I would like to
  824. Ge0rG jonasw: 👍
  825. pep. jonasw, can do
  826. winfried good plan
  827. Ge0rG tiden up the wiki a bit after this meeting and send it out?
  828. pep. Ok
  829. alexis has joined
  830. winfried that is that earth.li list?
  831. alexis has left
  832. winfried Ge0rG: good plan, maybe add a summary so far?
  833. pep. yes
  834. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  835. pep. winfried, boarf
  836. winfried LOL
  837. pep. It's still a wip
  838. winfried it is
  839. alexis has joined
  840. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  841. winfried do we need any reflection on the process before diving into it?
  842. alexis has left
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  844. winfried I guess not... ;-)
  845. winfried last point of 1.1d before diving into 1.1e: spam detection. What are we doing there and is that justified
  846. pep. If we want to provide a proper service to other users of the network I guess we have to yes
  847. alexis has joined
  848. Ge0rG winfried: what I am doing: automatic analysis of all messages for matching one of two sets of certain (super secret) criteria.
  849. winfried pep.: I was referring to legal grounds for processing, but you are right, that doesn't justify it
  850. Alex has left
  851. Ge0rG messages that match criterion 1: manual analysis of body text (this might be really evil, dunno)
  852. Ge0rG messages that match criterion 2: automatic blocking of the sender JID forever.
  853. pep. hmm, wouldn't any manual analysis directly fall under 9.1?
  854. winfried Ge0rG: fixed criteria or self-learning/statistical ones?
  855. alexis has left
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  857. jonasw Ge0rG, all of that falls apart once spammers start to OMEMO things, right?
  858. jonasw or at least the body text analysis
  859. Ge0rG winfried: fixed criteria. The manual analysis is only used to improve the criteria-2 list
  860. alexis has left
  861. pep. Ah, you're talking about non-bayes analysis or similar I guess
  862. Ge0rG jonasw: yes. I'm eagerly awaiting that day so I can start blocking OMEMO
  863. alexis has joined
  864. winfried has a head crunching regulations and articles
  865. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  866. moparisthebest has left
  867. Ge0rG *crunch*
  868. moparisthebest has joined
  869. pep. hmm, the e2ee thing seems annoying yeah
  870. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  871. winfried pep.: e2ee is a security risk!
  872. pep. :)
  873. pep. Ge0rG, I'd say that's a bit involved for spammers no?
  874. jonasw manually reading the body seems fairly evil though
  875. pep. Anyway..
  876. winfried lets brainstorm a bit
  877. pep. jonasw, agreed
  878. moparisthebest it's ok, the spammers aren't going to sue him for it
  879. rtq3 has joined
  880. winfried abuse detection/prevention is a ground for processing
  881. pep. moparisthebest, might not be spammers he's reading messages of
  882. daniel I think the target audience of their spam hates omemo and uses pidgin or other crappy messengers. So I honestly wouldn't expect them to start using omemo any time soon
  883. jonasw winfried, in any case: spam filtering is currently not standardised and I’m not sure if we need to cover it within the XSF
  884. winfried as long as it proportionate
  885. jonasw at least not at this point in time
  886. winfried so reading every message is not proportionate, reading messages already marked as spam is
  887. pep. winfried, is it?
  888. pep. is it written in your bible
  889. jonasw winfried, depends on how you mark as spam
  890. moparisthebest point is, no one could tell if you did or not, so it's legal!
  891. pep. moparisthebest, shush
  892. jonasw if you learn on spam based on viagra and penis enlargement, your spam detection could easily trip off at 9.1-relveant non-spam content.
  893. moparisthebest what this: Ge0rG, do you ever manually read messages? (answer no)
  894. winfried pep.: well, that is one of the things I was doubting about
  895. Yagiza has joined
  896. winfried but here in the netherlands 'escalating fraud prevention' is accepted right now
  897. pep. jonasw, your spam filter could also be "true"
  898. winfried (though a bit controversial)
  899. winfried pep., jonasw very true
  900. jonasw I motion that we skip spam detection of any kind for now, because of lack of standardisation. Just leave a note that any type of body analysis might go into 9.1 realm.
  901. winfried in the escalating things, metadata is the first step, then automated detection then manual analysis
  902. Ge0rG moparisthebest: yes I do.
  903. alexis has left
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  905. winfried moparisthebest: it is justifyable if it is proportionate and if it can't be done in an other way
  906. moparisthebest oops, you messed up Ge0rG :P
  907. alexis has left
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  909. winfried jonasw: I think we need to give some warnings about it, but we can't fully handle it indeed
  910. winfried so +1 to the motion of jonasw
  911. pep. how the hell does google justify that
  912. pep. yeah I also want to leave this aside for now
  913. winfried pep.: Google just lets you sign that they own your soul and your communications
  914. rtq3 has left
  915. winfried Ge0rG: ?
  916. rtq3 has joined
  917. winfried is it me, or did everybody leave for a friday afternoon beer on a terrace?
  918. Zash Good idea!
  919. pep. I was also planning something similar
  920. pep. it's sunny in the England, joy!
  921. pep. it's sunny in England, joy!
  922. Ge0rG winfried: what was your question, sorry?
  923. Zash It was sunny here yesterday.
  924. rion has left
  925. Zash Now it's grey meh.
  926. moparisthebest kinda on topic: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/30509/how-are-gdpr-fines-actually-enforced-for-us-companies-with-no-physical-presence
  927. winfried do you ack leaving spam detection with a note about possible problems with it?
  928. alexis has joined
  929. moparisthebest "The GDPR requires non-EU entities handling EU data to appoint a representative in the EU, and this representative will be able receive the fines or other penalties relating to regulation compliance." ;; haha EU lawmakers really are insane aren't they?
  930. Ge0rG winfried: yes, ack
  931. winfried Q1.1e!
  932. goffi has left
  933. pep. winfried, what do you want to put in 1.1e?
  934. Ge0rG pep.: I'd say specific action items for people involved (i.e. server operators)
  935. pep. State what fine if you don't do x or y?
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  938. winfried up to now we found several limits, things to consider regarding the processing we are doing
  939. pep. istr winfried also talking about drafting a policy or sth
  940. Ge0rG pep.: the fines aren't clear yet. The maximum fines are well-defined, but there are zero rulings yet
  941. winfried I think we should no look at what we must do to fix those issues
  942. Ge0rG winfried: {not,now}?
  943. winfried like s2s to a server that is violating privacy
  944. winfried now
  945. pep. winfried, I guess you can blacklist once you become aware
  946. Ge0rG but how do you become aware?
  947. winfried shall we first make a list of issues to consider?
  948. Ge0rG I don't think it's useful in any way to block s2s
  949. pep. Ge0rG, that'S the trick
  950. jubalh has joined
  951. Ge0rG We need to ensure that the users are informed about the possibility of their data leaving the EU
  952. jubalh has left
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  955. winfried OK, I opened pandora's box of s2s
  956. winfried lets empty it...
  957. winfried issue a: can it be justified?
  958. winfried (to do s2s)
  959. pep. what can?
  960. pep. ah, we said article 6 and 49.1b
  961. pep. 6.1b and 49.1b ?
  962. winfried pep.: exactly, but that assumes no more processing then is needed for the task
  963. pep. We can also ask for consent with 6.1a and 49.1a iirc
  964. winfried so how do we assure there is no more processing then needed for the task?
  965. pep. For the part that's not covered by implicit consent
  966. winfried pep.: yes
  967. winfried but how do we know we need extra consent?
  968. alexis has left
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  970. pep. all we haven't covered in 1.1c/d I would say?
  971. winfried I guess we can't enforce this by technical means, it is a legal issue
  972. moparisthebest does an incoming message to your user make it your user's message? in which case you already have their consent?
  973. winfried moparisthebest: no
  974. moparisthebest why not?
  975. pep. winfried, did we not say yes to this question?
  976. winfried moparisthebest: it still contains pii from the sender
  977. pep. right, assuming no further analysis of the message
  978. moparisthebest that they willingly sent to your user, put completely under your user's control?
  979. moparisthebest which they granted consent to you for, maybe?
  980. winfried pep.: on storage (MAM) of the conversation not on the processing (relaying) the message
  981. winfried moparisthebest: by willingly sending it to a user, the sender agrees to the processing of sending the message, the receiver is no part of that
  982. moparisthebest does anyone actually know that are is everyone just guessing until it's tested in court?
  983. pep. hmm
  984. MattJ moparisthebest, nobody knows
  985. alexis has left
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  987. winfried moparisthebest: there are some wp29 guidelines, they have a legal status
  988. moparisthebest I'd think they'd all be equally arguable in court
  989. jonasw winfried, didn’t we establish last time the opposite of that?
  990. jonasw like, received message == recipients content => covered by recipients consent.
  991. winfried jonasw: hmmm... refresh my mind (it has a friday explosion)
  992. moparisthebest again, what are the email providers doing? that's really all we need to know, numerous email providers are far bigger and have far more money than the entire XMPP network
  993. jonasw winfried, I’m semi-afk myself, but I think we figured that due to the fact that the recipients server has consent from the recipient for processing, it’s fine because the sender gave the recipient the data.
  994. jonasw moparisthebest, nobody knows!
  995. winfried jonasw: I thought that was only in the context of MAM at the receiver server
  996. jonasw moparisthebest, they won’t tell you because it threatens them legally
  997. pep. moparisthebest, https://www.earth.li/pipermail/gdpr-discuss/2018-April/000013.html a quite I liked in there, "Of course, anyone's reading might contrast quite a bit from how lawyers will over time engineer courts into interpreting it"
  998. jonasw winfried, okay, what are we talking about if not about MAM?
  999. moparisthebest jonasw, than that's what we should find out rather than trying to make up stuff on our own?
  1000. winfried jonasw: relaying the message, logging it, spam filtering it
  1001. jonasw moparisthebest, except that they won’t tell us
  1002. winfried using it for profiling for targeted advertisement
  1003. jonasw because it threatens them legally to do so, I guess
  1004. pep. moparisthebest, also business opportunities, so insentive not to reveal how they do it
  1005. jonasw that, too
  1006. jonasw but I guess they’re more afraid of them actually not being compliant
  1007. pep. possibly
  1008. moparisthebest but there are plenty of more open ones that would too?
  1009. moparisthebest presumably
  1010. winfried moparisthebest: there are many things unclear on the gdpr, but many thing things *are*, we can anticipate on that
  1011. jonasw hm, we could ask posteo
  1012. winfried moparisthebest: and many companies try to ignore the obvious, for example because it doesn't fit in their business model
  1013. moparisthebest it's not great but, seems like good odds an email provider will be targetted way before any xmpp provider, could just wait and see...
  1014. pep. moparisthebest, not sure that's a good option
  1015. moparisthebest the other option is for non-lawyers to try to interpret lawyer-speak, and guess what a lawyer and judge will decide
  1016. pep. So.. we didn't get really far today
  1017. moparisthebest also, not a good option
  1018. winfried moparisthebest: I don't want to tell my customers "we are neatly ignoring the law, because we hope somebody else gets caught first"
  1019. moparisthebest whether you try really hard to comply or not, that's still essentially the position you are in
  1020. winfried pep.: yes, I am a bit frustrated too...
  1021. pep. moparisthebest, if this doesn't interest you, fine
  1022. winfried moparisthebest: it is not that black-white, many things *are* clear
  1023. jonasw sorry, I was more distracted than I expected during this timeslot :/
  1024. moparisthebest don't get me wrong you guys are doing good work and finding the baseline of generally what looks to be compliant
  1025. moparisthebest but none of you are lawyers, and even if you were, they can be wrong too
  1026. moparisthebest it's a terrible situation, I'm just glad I'm not in the EU
  1027. pep. moparisthebest, yes everybody can be wrong and we'll see on the first court cases
  1028. pep. In the meantime, we kind of have to do something about it anyway
  1029. Holger That's true for basically any law that applies to whatever you do.
  1030. pep. yes
  1031. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the good thing is that if you show to the court that you clearly did your best to follow the rules, your probability of ending up in jail sinks
  1032. MattJ Obligatory link to http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 if you haven't read it, on the subject of law and computing
  1033. dwd has left
  1034. moparisthebest my only concern pep. is you overanalyze something and end up crippling federation or something that is useful
  1035. pep. moparisthebest, we're only giving guidelines, and we welcome anybody to give input, or even bring lawyers to the dicussion if possible
  1036. pep. moparisthebest, also as Ge0rG said
  1037. moparisthebest yea but if the guidelines end up being 'disable federation except on an opt-in manual basis' that ruins everything
  1038. SamWhited FYI, there's a bit of XMPP discussion in this Google Allo/SMS thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882539
  1039. winfried moparisthebest: I think we are in matter of fact analyzing how far we can go with federation without running into big problems
  1040. pep. that is not where we're headed no
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  1046. pep. Shall we plan next
  1047. winfried yes... I will try to make a analysis/summary of the discussion so far and the issues to tackle before it
  1048. pep. I can't do Wed and (Fri morning)
  1049. alexis has left
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  1051. pep. Tue 12:30 CEST as before?
  1052. jonasw pep., that would work for me
  1053. winfried Tue I am stuck
  1054. pep. winfried, yes that'd be nice to know where we're at
  1055. pep. Mon maybe?
  1056. winfried mon wfm
  1057. pep. Mon 1230 CEST
  1058. winfried wfm
  1059. pep. jonasw, Ge0rG
  1060. jonasw pep., can do
  1061. Ge0rG Mon and Tue should both work
  1062. pep. Ok!
  1063. pep. Mon 1230 CEST it is
  1064. alexis has left
  1065. pep. *bang*
  1066. alexis has joined
  1067. Ge0rG pep.: thanks for chairing! ;)
  1068. pep. haha
  1069. Ge0rG thanks to winfried too, obviously
  1070. Ge0rG Sorry I was semi-AFK, had two important and unscheduled customer calls :(
  1071. winfried is searching the gavel
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  1077. winfried Ge0rG: I noticed something like that already, can happen
  1078. jonasw thanks all
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  1088. pep. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882862 "an entirely over-the-top service that everyone could use, on any platform, without the consent, extra billing or buggy implementation of their carrier.", I guess they're missing the point, you still get the consent (in their meaning of the word) of WhatsApp to send your messages.
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  1098. moparisthebest https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/help ha lawyers eyeing GDPR stuff
  1099. rtq3 has left
  1100. lovetox The Last Call ends on 2017-12-12
  1101. lovetox says xep 363
  1102. lovetox so 4 months later what happens now?
  1103. MattJ I last see an email from Dave Cridland saying: "Re-reading this and other feedback, I'm going to push back on moving this to Draft until substantial improvements are done to Security Considerations in particular, and normative language use in general."
  1104. MattJ There has been an update to the XEP since then however
  1105. jere has joined
  1106. SamWhited It might be time for the editors to reissue the LC on that
  1107. jere has joined
  1108. daniel I'll do one tiny update. Give me second
  1109. lovetox does the xsf have tool to track these things?
  1110. lovetox there are probably 100 xeps in different states that have deadlines
  1111. lovetox my observation is that these dates are not actually tracked, so the deadlines mean nothing
  1112. Guus has left
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  1114. lovetox i dont know what the correct process is, but a xep where the LC ended and it was voted to not advance, should be moved back to experimental or something
  1115. jonasw lovetox, seems legit
  1116. jonasw editor’s bsy though
  1117. lovetox and not kept in this LC ended, but we have to search the mailinglist what actually happend -state
  1118. Kev As with all things, feel free to help do something about it :)
  1119. lovetox i just did, its not meant as whining, i deal with this at work everyday, i asked if you have a tool to track these deadlines?
  1120. Kev Not beyond basic things like popping it in Trello (unless jonasw tells me we've got something better I'm not aware of).
  1121. Kev We could, in principle, scrape the dates out of the XEPs automatically, but I don't believe we have anything currently to do that.
  1122. alexis has left
  1123. Zash `grep`
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  1125. lovetox is there any automatic state changes happening?
  1126. lovetox like triggered by something, and executed by the server without the editor doing something?
  1127. Guus has left
  1128. lovetox or does every state change need a manual triggering by the editor?
  1129. Kev State changes are all manual (which is right, I think).
  1130. Kev Sending emails is also manual, which isn't right - that bit's nearly automated but not quite finished.
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  1132. lovetox so if every state change is manual, then a simple excel (or whatever you use on linux) list with the 400 xeps and there current status would be sufficient
  1133. lovetox if its on the server and everyone has access to
  1134. lovetox before council meeting, look at the list, filter state X look at deadline, and bring to vote
  1135. ralphm has left
  1136. lovetox its not really elaborate solution, but i think thats sufficient for the task
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  1140. MattJ I don't think the spreadsheet part is even necessary
  1141. SamWhited has joined
  1142. Kev I don't think that helps in this particular case, though, which was that it was blocked pending changes, and either the changes didn't happen, or it wasn't clear that they had.
  1143. lovetox the problem is, nobody looked if they happend
  1144. lovetox because it was not on the agenda anymore
  1145. lovetox which it would have been if there was a list with all LC xeps
  1146. lovetox because then it would be easy to look at all LC every council meeting
  1147. lovetox and im not sure what you mean by "blocked"
  1148. lovetox if LC ended, and you block it, then it cant be in LC anymore
  1149. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
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  1151. lovetox or maybe thats the problem, that its not usual to set the xep back to experimantal
  1152. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1153. MattJ I feel almost like we need some tests for the xeps repo to highlight inconsistencies
  1154. Zash `xeps$ xpath -e /xep/header/lastcall xep-0???.xml`
  1155. Kev lovetox: Because it shouldn't go back to Experimental really. According to our process it should be rejected.
  1156. Kev Which is obviously not right.
  1157. Kev So just leaving it in Proposed is what tends to happen.
  1158. lovetox your process gives you only Accepted or Rejected
  1159. lovetox ?
  1160. lovetox after a LC
  1161. lovetox this seems not good, maybe add that it can be set back to experimental if the xep in gerneral is useful, but lacks some things
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  1167. Dave Cridland Yeah, we should allow popping things back to Experimental.
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  1170. Dave Cridland Although possibly the right thing to do is pop them into Rejected, but allow Rejected XEPs to be pulled back to Experimental, like Deferred ones.
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  1172. Dave Cridland (The difference being that if Council has rejected it, and nobody does anythign further, it should probably stay rejected and not automatically go back to Experimental)
  1173. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: that sounds like the perfect recipe for offending authors.
  1174. Kev I'm not sure that's true (Dave)
  1175. Kev It seems that an abandoned LC XEP is much like an abandoned Experimental XEP.
  1176. Dave Cridland Kev, So Deferred?
  1177. Kev And letting them both be Experimental at the time of last action, and defer naturally seems sane to me.
  1178. ralphm Are we talking about the Proposed state?
  1179. Ge0rG Deferred sounds better
  1180. Kev ralphm: Yes.
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  1182. lovetox you dont want to set it to a state where devs are scared to implement it, only because one council member thought some minor thing has to be adjusted
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  1184. Kev So an E with 5 months before Def goes to LC, gets -1, it then goes back to E for another 5 until it goes Def.
  1185. lovetox so Rejected sounds bad
  1186. Kev Or something.
  1187. Kev lovetox: Indeed.
  1188. lovetox Yes Kev your proposal sounds sane
  1189. ralphm Rejected would be the appropriate state if the author is unwilling to change it based on said council members' comments.
  1190. Kev ralphm: I don't think so based purely on that criterion.
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  1192. ralphm I am ok with an edge Rejected->Experimental
  1193. lovetox yes of course, the case we talk currently is, nobody had time to look at things, or forgot but the xep is a good xep 🙂
  1194. Kev Because if it's a worthwhile XEP with an intransigent author, the right thing is to assign a new author.
  1195. Kev Not to kill the XEP.
  1196. ralphm Kev: allowing Rejected->Experimental would enable just that, no?
  1197. Kev ralphm: Pointlessly, IMHO.
  1198. lovetox Rejected should be an end state
  1199. lovetox in my opinion
  1200. Kev I think allowing LC to end in any of Draft, Rejected, Experimental would be good to me.
  1201. ralphm Somebody wants to pick up the Rejected XEP, does the work, suggests going back to Experimental.
  1202. Kev And leaving it to Council to decide which.
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  1204. ralphm Sure
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  1206. lovetox so in this case now with httpupload
  1207. ralphm But then you have to define how a vote in Council causes which transition
  1208. lovetox i message the editor, saying LC has ended, no changes on the xep
  1209. lovetox then he has to set it to rejected
  1210. alexis has left
  1211. lovetox 10 minutes later daniel messages: oh i make the change i forgot
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  1214. lovetox then he has to put it again into experimental..
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  1216. ralphm lovetox: in the current process, only Council can make it go to Rejected to begin with, after a vote.
  1217. lovetox good, so council should decide
  1218. ralphm So it is Experimental -> Proposed -[vote]-> Rejected/Draft
  1219. lovetox experimental because author was reached and promises to do something
  1220. lovetox or rejected, we cant reach anyone
  1221. lovetox i feel there is no need for a hard state machine, LC -> Rejected -> experimental
  1222. lovetox although i dont care in the end, but this probably generates work for the editor
  1223. lovetox and has no real gain
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  1225. lovetox council can determine if its worth to go from LC -> Experimantal
  1226. ralphm If a modification to XEP-0001 is proposed, including how voting in Council works with three possible outcomes, I'd of course be happy to entertain that proposal in an upcoming Board meeting/
  1227. MattJ I'm not sure LC should be an explicit state, I think that's the problem here
  1228. Dave Cridland lovetox, The benefit of a hard state machine is that people are slightly less likely to scream about abuse of power.
  1229. Ge0rG It's great to have a process to change the process.
  1230. Kev MattJ: That may well be.
  1231. lovetox Dave Cridland, hm yes didnt saw it from this point of vie
  1232. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I'm pretty sure if there is a Collusion of Council, we can figure out a way to formally follow the process to achieve any desired abuse of power.
  1233. Ge0rG &
  1234. lovetox also would it be a abuse of power if the council votes on the state?
  1235. lovetox i think not
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  1237. Kev If I was proposing wording to xep1, I would go with a slightly more formal: When LC expires, Council shall vote on advancement to Draft. If this vote fails Council shall then vote on Rejection. If this vote also fails, the XEP shall return to a state of Experimental (and shall later be deferred after the normal period after the substantive modification).
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  1260. ralphm I'd +1 that
  1261. ralphm So please send a request to that end to Board
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  1263. ralphm I think it would be useful, though, to actually record objections in the Changelog. We haven't done this, before, but it might be useful to see the history if progressing failed at some point.
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  1265. Ge0rG +1 to that
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  1302. Maranda 💕 muc favicons.
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  1304. Maranda 🤣
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  1317. ralphm https://twitter.com/ralphm/status/987382007452889088?s=09
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  1320. ralphm RCS? Come on.
  1321. Maranda Apparently
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  1323. moparisthebest difference being they couldn't charge xmpp servers for federation like they can with carriers I'm assuming
  1324. moparisthebest what is this? google's 10th attempt at instant messaging? 20th? I've lost count
  1325. lovetox and this one is obviously going to failk
  1326. lovetox and this one is obviously going to fail
  1327. moparisthebest sure I mean why would anyone think the 20th time is the charm :)
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  1332. ralphm moparisthebest I'm not sure if that's true, but it has little to do with Open
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  1335. moparisthebest right it's not open at all, this RCS business
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  1337. Zash Which RCS is this even?
  1338. moparisthebest Zash, https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/19/google-changes-its-messaging-strategy-again-goodbye-to-allo-double-down-on-rcs/
  1339. Zash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services ?
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  1350. MattJ Yes
  1351. Ge0rG RCS is the massive fail that happens when telcos try to grasp and monetize whatsapp
  1352. lovetox i dont get it, its not anymore just about messaging
  1353. lovetox this reads like all it does is send one message to a contact
  1354. moparisthebest we should make bets how long this lasts before google abandons it
  1355. lovetox i bet it doesnt even start
  1356. Ge0rG "RCS could allow free chats across different networks on Android or other devices" except that it's operated by the telcos and billed by the message
  1357. moparisthebest I give it maybe a year before they give up
  1358. moparisthebest yea I agree lovetox I don't think it'll ever get off the ground, but I give it a year until they give up
  1359. moparisthebest think of the poor telcos missing out on all those sweet per message fees! <- something no one has ever said except telco CEOs
  1360. Ge0rG RCS was "introduced" in 2012 and nobody wanted it but the carriers. No idea who paid Google how much to get them behind it.
  1361. Ge0rG But as it doesn't even fit Google's business strategy, I would counter-bet that this public announcement is all we are going to see of their involvment
  1362. lovetox in most countrys sms are free anyway
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  1364. Ge0rG Okay, there is _maybe_ one way for Google to align it with their strategy - by selling targeted RCS spam to companies
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  1367. Ge0rG lovetox: SMS were free, then telcos discovered they can bill users per message and then it took over a decade to get decent flatrate offers
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  1369. lovetox yeah i just mean, now why going back
  1370. Ge0rG I've only switched to an SMS flat two months ago
  1371. lovetox nobody will accept paying for a message
  1372. Ge0rG lovetox: because RCS is a premium service
  1373. Ge0rG lovetox: have a look at MMS.
  1374. lovetox nobody used that ^^
  1375. Ge0rG lovetox: my father-in-law used that, before I gave him ChatSecure. At least MMS was working.
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  1378. Ge0rG besides, telcos will go a long way to protect their revenue model. One of the reasons Windows Phone failed was that telcos feared it would come bundled with Skype
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  1388. ralphm RCS is much much older than 2012.
  1389. Ge0rG ralphm: but that's when it emerged to the general public and made everybody realize how big it's going to fail.
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  1395. ralphm I.e. it builds on IMS, which started in 1999 or so.
  1396. ralphm Yeah, I can only hope that with Google touching it, it will be truly dead soon.
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  1413. Andrew Nenakhov Average Google service lifespan is like 1400 days... So this RCS will likely be over by 2023
  1414. Andrew Nenakhov Source for lifespan: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/mar/22/google-keep-services-closed
  1415. ralphm I don't Allo is that old
  1416. ralphm (think)
  1417. Andrew Nenakhov For some it happens sooner. That's why it is called "average" )
  1418. Andrew Nenakhov Allo is 3 years old I guess
  1419. dwd 21 Septmeber 2016, apparently.
  1420. dwd So 18 months.
  1421. Andrew Nenakhov Actually reading that link I remembered how much I liked Google Wave
  1422. ralphm Hah, Google Wave's federation effort was one guy.
  1423. Andrew Nenakhov Oh, I recalled that it was announced in spring event, but not in 2015 but in 2016, so it's closer to 2 years
  1424. ralphm (and yes, I have the t-shirt)
  1425. dwd Andrew Nenakhov, Announced in Google I/O 2016 (Spring?) but not launched for months afterward.
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  1429. Andrew Nenakhov Well, if you have 5 (6?) competing messaging services, it's quite probable they'll have shorter than average lifespan 😂
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  1509. ralphm Too bad I was busy at work today, but I love debunking comments on HN. Like this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882916
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  1515. moparisthebest "it’s driven by the same companies that charge the equivalent of $1000+/mb for sms delivery" ha I never thought about it like that, excellent
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  1520. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm not sure which part of your comment is "debunking"
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  1522. ralphm Well, the argument that XMPP is too old
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  1524. ralphm But I guess my other comment is better
  1525. Ge0rG ralphm: that was not an argument the OP made. They only wrote that XMPP failed, without a root cause analysis
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  1527. ralphm It was implied, I think, but sure
  1528. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm not sure about that.
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  1531. ralphm People on HN generally use two arguments against XMPP: 1) too old, 2) xml/battery
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  1533. Zash You forget those who go "lalalallaala, matrix is the best!!"
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  1536. Zash and "matrix is winning because bridges"
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  1538. pep. daniel, seems interesting!
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  1540. Ge0rG Zash: we need a matrix bridge to rule them all
  1541. pep. (goulash programming thing)
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